Bergey Wind Generator -

Started by Okie_Bob, October 01, 2007, 05:37:18 PM

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Okie_Bob

Split this off from the roof insulation topic to keep from drifting too bad. :)  GK

Hey Glenn, how did I miss the fact that you have a Bergey Wind Generator? Tell me all about it. I looked at them awhile back but, got scared off due to a lack of wind where we are.
It must be a great product, it's made in Norman, OKLAHOMA!!!!
Okie Bob
PS: almost forgot, I finally got a Pickett slide rule before I graduated from OU. They are metal and all were a yellow color as far as I know. They were the hottest things going way back then!!!

glenn-k

#1
Norman, Oklahoma.  Is that a small province in China, BoB? :-?

The manufacturer is in Oklahoma but I am sure I saw China somewhere on the parts... but non-the-less, it is likely one of the best wind generators on the market.  I have heard horror stories about some of the others.  A dealer told me he sold 6 of some other brand and had to take them all back due to major problems -- burning up etc.  No problems with the Bergey.  Just hook it up and go.

It comes with a fairly sophisticated controller that steps up the low voltage (low wind conditions)  to usable voltage for charging 24v batteries- a circuit breaker, solar regulator for a hybrid system and a circuit for a dump load regulator to burn off excess power as you should not take a wind generator off line-- they go wild in the wind when unloaded.  They fold sideways to control excess wind so they won't fly apart.

I designed and built my own 85 foot tower from things I learned from their instruction manual and I did sneak in a couple questions to the factory rep.  I'm a bit of a tightwad and a couple grand is a couple grand. :)


Okie_Bob

Glenn, I think China is the manufacturing sister country of the new US of A. They know how to make things and we used to but, can't anymore. We have to farm it out to them and lost our ability to do anything except service things they build.

So how long have you had the Bergey? Did I see that it is a 5 kw unit? Can you give me an estimate of the cost of the system and cost of the tower you made and cost to erect it etc? I don't think I could erect an 85' tower by myself and I don't have access to heavy equipment anymore unless I rent it.
Do you have any good buddies at Bergey? I have wanted to stop in and visit with them. Norman was my home for many years and I'd love to live there again. Course it's the home of the University of Oklahoma, my reason for loving it!
Okie Bob

glenn-k

#3
China is the manufacturer because corporate America is selling us out, BoB.  Maximize the bottom line -- give the investors a pittance and make the CEOs wealthy.  Don't worry about the working class - they don't need jobs.  When I was trucking a student from Taiwan broke his car don in New Mexico.  He was ripped off by a repair company -- had to leave his car and we gave him a ride.  On the way to California he told us that Taiwan is just an assembly plant for American companies.   Now it is China.

Of course one of America's finest police felt it was his duty to give me a ticket for hauling an unauthorized rider.  That really endeared them to me. >:(

I've had the Bergey running about 4 years now.  Roughly around 2 grand for it and 2 grand for a tower.  Price is a bit higher on it now.  This is a 1 KW unit - their small one - XL1.  I didn't look up the pricing but I think it is on their site.  Their policy was to let you have a dealership if you bought one and could install and service for others -- and passed their qualifications along with no dealer in your area.  I may be able to get you a discount and have it shipped there but not sure as you are not in my area.

I think you could stand your own tower, BoB.  I could tell you how to make it and you could put it up with a gin pole  Literature may be online for their pipe tower along with instructions for the small one -- bigger may be another story.  Several small ones are better than one big one anyway.

http://www.bergey.com/
Bergey Windpower Co., the worlds leading supplier of small wind turbines

glenn kangiser

"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

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glenn kangiser

#5
I put this up by myself, BoB.  About 10 hours with no outside help -- chain hoist - tree and a gin pole.
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

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desdawg

Looks kinda scary. Reckon it will stay up there?  ::)
I have done so much with so little for so long that today I can do almost anything with absolutely nothing.

glenn kangiser

I reckon so, desdawg.  Near 5 years now -- maybe I should go tighten the cables now that you mentioned it.  Top is 85 feet - 4 20 foot sections and 5 foot top section.  It is mounted on a base that is staked into the ground with 3 foot steel stakes.  

The pivot for the gin pole is also on the steel mounting base.  The gin pole is removed after the tower is erected.  

What was hard was weaving the cables around all the oak trees by myself as it went up.   I didn't want to cut them.  Needless to say that was not part of the recommended procedure.
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

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desdawg

I am always amazed at those towers. They look so flimsy at first glance. 85' is pretty tall. Have you had to take it down for maintenance on the generator?
I have done so much with so little for so long that today I can do almost anything with absolutely nothing.


glenn kangiser

#9
I don't really want to think about taking it down. :-/

There are no moving parts except what you see moving, and I read something about it possibly going 10 years (I hope for more and won't pull it down until a problem develops - the bearings are sealed.).  I could get it down though, knowing how I put it up.  Guy wires are used every 20 feet and all of them attach to the gin pole and it must be carefully controlled as it is let down.  the side wires need to be controlled also and in a even flat plain that would not be a problem.  There is nothing even or flat around here.  That makes it quite a project.

In reality though - you are only supporting about 100 lbs plus thrust.  Only about a 50 lb or so pull on any of the cables at any given time.  You just have to get it up and guy it properly in 4 directions at each joint.  The tubing can be as thin as 4" exhaust pipe.  Wind at 85 to 100 feet is about 3 times that on the ground and as a minimum you must be at least 30 feet or so above the tallest trees to prevent turbulence.  My site is not ideal but works well.  Occasional turbulence from wind coming up from underneath rather than straight as we have a ridge within 100 feet in either direction (drop from the ridge either way).
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

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desdawg

Makes good old solar look pretty simple.
I have done so much with so little for so long that today I can do almost anything with absolutely nothing.

peter nap

It's all pretty simple Des.

To sum it up, figure out how much power you can afford or need (not always the same)

Buy batteries for that amount,

Figure out how to charge the batteries....period!

For most people, a combination of solar, wind and a powered generator is the answer. For people with water, throw in hydro.

I get annoyed wit one of the better off grid boards. One of the most knowledgeable people there always answers a question with a question. He's no help to the new people and scares off more people than he attracts.


glenn kangiser

I consider wind a semi-reliable bonus.  It works nights and cloudy or stormy days also. :)  Does about 25% of my power.  Many times gives me a boost when I need it.
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

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MelH

Glenn - you spent roughly 4k 5 years ago - has it paid for itself yet?


Okie_Bob

Glenn, I just glanced at the Bergery site and yes, the cost has gone up a bit but, not that bad. About $2.5K now plus tower.
I'm really a novice on wind power but, really interested. I didn't take the time to research it but, looks like you are generating
mainly 24V to use to charge your batteries? 48V seems to be an option on some sytems. Guess that is for the newer batteries?

So all your power is converted from the 24V battery to 230VAC 50Hz? I'm sure there is a good reason for that but, most US appiances don't like 50Hz power. Suspect it is not that difficult to convert to 120VAC but a frequency changer is not cheap so you would have to go with the 50Hz?

Why couldn't you simply convert the 24V out of the wind generator to 120VAC 60Hz and not store it in a battery. Just use what you can when you can as you only have a 1KW generator anyway? Am I missing something here too? I could probably find the answers to these questions but, figure I'd be lazy and let you answer!

And as MelH asked, what has the pay back been to date? Or can you tell? Very curious.
Okie Bob

peter nap

Bob, I'll let Glenn tell you about the output on his, but to answer your question in part, direct conversion is very difficult. I have a 12 V system because it's easier to produce charging current with the lower voltages. (Homegrown system)
My generator is capable of putting out 120 volts DC. Transmitting AC is more efficient if you need to go any distance but the raw voltage is too erratic to be usable. It can go from 8 volts to 120 in a few seconds.

Anyway...at the battery bank. the AC is rectified and put into the battery. The battery acts as a giant capacitor and maintains the wattage at a constant state, There is a charge controller that reads the battery voltage and dumps the charge to another circuit (In the controller I built, it dumps at 13.8 volts).

The dump circuit can go to anything including ground. Some people send it to a water heater but mine goes to a second controller for a dedicated battery. The primary controller handles both the wind and solar.

The batteries are what do the work. They have a high enough amperage to accommodate The starting surge on motors as well as provide constant voltage to the inverter. The inverter will give either a pure or modified sine wave. I have a 5K modified sine wave that handles everything but very sensitive computer equipment and believe it or not, some window fans and a 1K pure sine wave inverter.

From there on, it's plug and play :o

MountainDon

#16
I should sit quietly here and let Glenn pipe in, but I can't. I'm bored, home with a terrific sinus infection, and I love to talk alternate power.  :)

Glenn is totally off grid. No batteries = no power at night (solar PV) and no power when no wind. Hence the need for batteries. Wind generated power is too variable to be used without a buffer of batteries.

Where'd you get the 50 Hz from? I'm certain he runs 60 Hz with 120 VAC except for the water pump (240VAC) You can piggy back some inverters to get 240 VAC.

I do have a PV array on the suburban home. It's grid tied with a small battery bank for emergency outages. I only do 120 VAC to a few select circuits in the house from the batteries/inverter. There's an automatic changeover switch if when the grid fails. I can count on making about 400 - 500 Kwh in an average month. So most months I also pay the power company. March, April & May we had credits. The rest of the year nights are longer and the furnace runs more and of course in the summer the A/C eats up as much again as we make or more.. I'm not sure I'll ever see full payback, but then again who knows how high the power company prices will go. But knowing that there's power available is quite nice.

My battery bank is 24 VDC (8 - 6 volt AGM 220 Ahr units). You can run 48  VDC if that's your choice. Can save on wire sizes/costs if there's any long runs. 48 VDC battery banks limits your choices of some equipment though.

If you are grid tied as well as generating by solar your system must meet the rather rigid specs the power company sets. I imagine the same rules apply for wind. You can actually see the meter run backwards on a sunny day.  :)

My cabin will be too far from the grid tie point to be economically feasible... $55K to connect. It could be shared with my neighbor, but he's already setup with PV panels and batteries. I plan on 48 - 60 VDC from the panels to the charge controller. The charge controller will change that to match the 24 VDC battery pack. There'll be a 120 VAC inverter capable of about 3500 watts or so, My generator will be used for backup and equalizing.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.

glenn kangiser

Wow -- I go to work for the day and the forum goes wild. :)

MelH -- depends on how you look at it I guess.  For me it paid for itself the day I put it up --- no power company - not under the thumb of the gov. etc.  Financially -- I guess I need to put down some numbers an maybe Don can work them out. ;D  i don't consider it to be a way to save money.  I consider it to be a step toward independence.

Lets say 5 to 10k for Power company hook up -- no need.

We paid $100 to 300 per month at the conventional house for power per month so lets say our conservation value of our power here is $200 per month or $2400 per year  (not that we would use that much the way we live now but we would use that much if we had it.)  

We still have all necessary conveniences including a 20 cu ft freezer, 8 cu ft freezer, appx 8 cu ft antique electric fridge -very energy efficient, 2 laptops - printer - wireless DSL print server, microwave, coffeemaker, air compressor as req'd, welder sometimes, compact florescents as necessary - trash compactor as necessary, standard washer and standard propane/electric drier, 1.5 HP standard 240v pump -pumping about 600 gallons of water per day.  Shop lighting and tools as necessary.

Also a propane RV fridge.  Bosch HX 125 Tankless water heater.  Convert whatever you can to propane -- no electric heaters.

If I hadn't made mistakes along the way learning off grid on my own - costs could be -

$2500 Wind Gen 1KW - built my own tower -cable and clamps included - scrap pipe and steel not included.

$1800 12 6V batteries @375 ah each.

$3200  2-4kw used trace inverters and cable stacked for 240v

$10000 appx 2000 watts solar panels @$5 per watt.  Didn't build frames yet - sitting on roof,  but could be built from wood.

We use all standard house wiring and fixtures so cost would be the same as whatever you spend now plus any wiring from the inverter to the panel.

I added an extra controller - say $400 and misc. pump control relays and timers -- used2 - 12v auto relays in series (24v system)  to control 240v relay to cycle pump when batteries overcharge.

The voltage is pretty well controlled by the inverters you decide to use -- I like 24v - more versatile than 12v system - more popular than 48v system -- moderate wire sizes.  Some regulators will allow you to series your panels for smaller wire size then they convert down to 24v.  

Sorry if I didn't get to everything yet -- I will try to get to more of it tonight.


"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

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glenn kangiser

I'm inverting from 24v DC to 240v AC 60 HZ.  I use all normal equipment like a normal house -- even though I'm abnormal. ;D

That was one of my self set requirements.  I even leave most of my parasite loads going all the time -- 4 phones on chargers -cell charger - print server is a big one so I unplug it most of the time - it pulls 60 watts.
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

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glenn kangiser

#19
BoB said
QuoteWhy couldn't you simply convert the 24V out of the wind generator to 120VAC 60Hz and not store it in a battery. Just use what you can when you can as you only have a 1KW generator anyway? Am I missing something here too? I could probably find the answers to these questions but, figure I'd be lazy and let you answer!

You may only have a bit of power when the wind is blowing - not likely enough to power anything often when you need it.  Store it in batteries and it is there anytime day or night.  You lose a bit in inefficiency that can't be stored but that's the breaks.  As a bonus, when it is working well and you are using power, most all of it is used effeciently as it is made with excess being stored in the battery.  

I'd hate to have to get up in the middle of the night to microwave the wifes cat because that was the only time I had enough wind power. ::)

The batteries carry you over when there is no sun - such as when it is night or cloudy. :)
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

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glenn kangiser

I probably do about 450 kwh per month -- never checked the numbers -- just add to it as I need it.

Note that I have a welder as a backup generator also.  Fast charge I hook the weld cables direct on CC  and throw in about 100 to 120 amps - when the batts are low it brings the voltage up to about 26.5 v and up- about 1/2 hr every so often..  Doing it that way I have to keep an eye on it.  This is in parallel with the inverter charger which will taper off as the batts come up.  

Welder 10kw generator - Miller is about $3500
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

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peter nap

#21
That's an impressive setup Glenn. Especially the batteries! I'm using 6V Golf Cart batteries giving approximately 1K storage each.

If I understand you correctly, your using your dump circuit to operate two relays that operate your pump. I assume the pump is on your primary circuit(s) and the dump current just closes the relays.

And you have a storage tank for the water as it's pumped with another pump in the tank for normal use???????????

Pretty neat system! ;)

glenn kangiser

Even easier, Peter.  The Bergey already has a dump circuit built in -- just add a load.  Rather than burning it off and wasting it, I connected the control windings of two Ford-etc micro relays - appx 1 cu. in. size in series for 24v so the relays were easy to come by and wouldn't burn out on 24v.  The secondaries of them control a 120v power cord that is jumpered into the plug of a $8.50 timer (matched polarity- ) that also controlls the plug -- I set it for 15 minutes every 2 hours during the day -late morning on - pumping about 150 gal water in that time.  My well produces 1 gpm so it matches pretty good with this as well as it having extra capacity down the hole.  During extra power days as voltage overcharges the batteries the dump load kicks the relays on and burns the excess power off.   The dump load is parallel with the timer.  Both control the primary 120v coils that kick in the 240 vac that runs the pump  

I do not run a control circuit but instead pump to a 2600 gallon tank about 80 feet elevation above the house  - water going up and down the same 2 inch line into the bottom of the tank.  The 1 inch conduit I was going to run the control wiring in now functions as an overflow from the top of the tank so the water comes back down the hill about 300 feet through the conduit and runs down the driveway prompting me to cut down the pumping time.  Actually inflow and outflow match close enought that I rarely have to pump extra water if pressure drops indicating a low water condition.

Note that my pump runs so much more efficiently on pure sine wave inverters that I highly recommend running them rather than modified sine wave.  I burned out quite a few tools on modified - mostly variable speed.  Note that some variable speed Rotohammers - notably Bosch - will not start even on pure sine wave unless you first start a skillsaw or other motor to smooth the power even more.  
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

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glenn kangiser

Batteries are Siebert (local MFG) L16 - 375 AH -- figure to only draw them down about 1/2 way for best life -- I probably don't watch that close enough -- do as I say - not as I do.
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

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glenn kangiser

Re-reading your post, Peter, I think you had it about figured out.
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

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