Porch posts and Loft Rails

[OlJarhead]

Those of you who've gotten to know me a little know that I do 'shotgun' research all day long   What I mean is that you know I don't just concentrate on one thing.  I spend time daily -- right now -- thinking about installing the wood stove, Roof framing, brick laying, insulation, RV appliances and so much more (all while I solve problems on Telecommunications gear around the country and manage a Network Operations Control Center)...it's just me, Iv'e always been this way.  I'm told I'm a '3 dimensional thinker' whatever that is...

Anyway, one of the things I've been thinking a lot about is cutting down several 1 1/2" thick pine trees on our property (they need to be thinned anyway) and using these: http://www.lumberjacktools.com/index.html to make them into rails for the loft railing.

I think the look would be fantastic and they'd be functional.  I figure if I cut them in June (I'm told July-August are best but with fire and cutting restrictions June will work better), stripping them and letting them dry for 6-8 weeks before trimming, cutting to size and cutting the tenons.  I figure that once that's all done I can coat in a clear poly with a slight antiquing quality to it (amber or honey type maybe).

Anyway, this lead me to wonder if I could use pine for my porch posts also?  If I were to cut some trees with say 6" diameters and do the same with them (peel and dry) would they be strong enough as porch supports?

[Redoverfarm]

Those of you who've gotten to know me a little know that I do 'shotgun' research all day long  What I mean is that you know I don't just concentrate on one thing.  I spend time daily -- right now -- thinking about installing the wood stove, Roof framing, brick laying, insulation, RV appliances and so much more (all while I solve problems on Telecommunications gear around the country and manage a Network Operations Control Center)...it's just me, Iv'e always been this way.  I'm told I'm a '3 dimensional thinker' whatever that is...

Anyway, one of the things I've been thinking a lot about is cutting down several 1 1/2" thick pine trees on our property (they need to be thinned anyway) and using these: http://www.lumberjacktools.com/index.html to make them into rails for the loft railing.

I think the look would be fantastic and they'd be functional.  I figure if I cut them in June (I'm told July-August are best but with fire and cutting restrictions June will work better), stripping them and letting them dry for 6-8 weeks before trimming, cutting to size and cutting the tenons.  I figure that once that's all done I can coat in a clear poly with a slight antiquing quality to it (amber or honey type maybe).

Anyway, this lead me to wonder if I could use pine for my porch posts also?  If I were to cut some trees with say 6" diameters and do the same with them (peel and dry) would they be strong enough as porch supports?

Sounds like a plan.  I think I would try to find something a little more substantial for the porch post.  But if you need a place to store the tenon cutter when you are finished I will send you my mailing address.  

There is an alternative way to cut the tenons for railing if you are not really interested in having the 60 deg shoulder.  Use a hole saw to cut the tenon.  Then set your table saw fence to correspond the the depth of your hole saw cut.  Then raise your blade to meet the hole saw cut and rotate the picket to remove the excess.  Just a thought. 

[OlJarhead]

Those of you who've gotten to know me a little know that I do 'shotgun' research all day long   What I mean is that you know I don't just concentrate on one thing.  I spend time daily -- right now -- thinking about installing the wood stove, Roof framing, brick laying, insulation, RV appliances and so much more (all while I solve problems on Telecommunications gear around the country and manage a Network Operations Control Center)...it's just me, Iv'e always been this way.  I'm told I'm a '3 dimensional thinker' whatever that is...

Anyway, one of the things I've been thinking a lot about is cutting down several 1 1/2" thick pine trees on our property (they need to be thinned anyway) and using these: http://www.lumberjacktools.com/index.html to make them into rails for the loft railing.

I think the look would be fantastic and they'd be functional.  I figure if I cut them in June (I'm told July-August are best but with fire and cutting restrictions June will work better), stripping them and letting them dry for 6-8 weeks before trimming, cutting to size and cutting the tenons.  I figure that once that's all done I can coat in a clear poly with a slight antiquing quality to it (amber or honey type maybe).

Anyway, this lead me to wonder if I could use pine for my porch posts also?  If I were to cut some trees with say 6" diameters and do the same with them (peel and dry) would they be strong enough as porch supports?

Sounds like a plan.  I think I would try to find something a little more substantial for the porch post.  But if you need a place to store the tenon cutter when you are finished I will send you my mailing address.   

haha and here I thought you were going to offer to loan me one!  

Seriously though, have you looked at those?  Amazing!  Expensive, but amazing!  Just like a pencil sharpener

Now, if I get the work done correctly I think the railing will look darn near awesome...but the porch...I was thinking that Pine might not be strong enough so perhaps I need some fir?

[MountainDon]

How big a porch? How many posts to hold up the roof?


The load on the posts is mostly a compression load; I don't see why a 6 inch pine would not be strong enough to support most porch roofs. Maybe I'm missing something?   

[OlJarhead]

How big a porch? How many posts to hold up the roof?


The load on the posts is mostly a compression load; I don't see why a 6 inch pine would not be strong enough to support most porch roofs. Maybe I'm missing something?   

I'm planning a porch that will surround the entire cabin -- though it will be built separately as John and you advised due to floor depth and sheer strength issues -- probably go with a 6 foot deep porch all around -- posts at distances according to what the span of the beams for the roof will be.  So, if I use 4x4's I'm guessing that's probably at least 8' (I wouldn't go further then that) though I'm still just mulling this over and probably ages from doing it.

My plan is to build a post and pier based floor and was originally going to be 4x4 posts going from the pier to the roof beams -- like a pole barn I guess -- with the floor framed into the beams (maybe using recess cuts to fit the rim joist into the posts? -- and hangers to hang floor joists -- then lay down 2x6 decking -- redwood probably and roof with Tin to match the cabin roof -- I saw a Tennessee cabin in here that look so good I couldn't help but wonder if I could use my pines to do the same thing -- though the pine would probably only be in the front section and I'd leave the 4x4's for the rest, less visible sections.

Erik

[davidj]

I think my porch was spec'd 6" square or 8" round doug fir posts.  That's with something like 2700lb on it (100 psf snow load) and moderate quake risk.

[OlJarhead]

http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=7426.0

This is what we're thinking would be nice surrounding our cabin

For those DF posts what was the overall cost?

[Redoverfarm]

OlJarhead if I were you I would probably rethink the 6' porch deck.  If there is any way possible I would go with 8' deep.  Your decking will be 8' demensions and basicly you would have 2' waste on each.  The additional rafter length would not be that much more.

I went with 8' and it worked out really well

[OlJarhead]

OlJarhead if I were you I would probably rethink the 6' porch deck.  If there is any way possible I would go with 8' deep.  Your decking will be 8' demensions and basicly you would have 2' waste on each.  The additional rafter length would not be that much more.

I went with 8' and it worked out really well

Perfect!  I was wondering what others did and had debated (with myself 4,5 and 6 foot porches) on this -- mainly this is a surround porch so I though I didn't need 8 feet all the way around but perhaps you have a very good point and after all, that 8 feet will provide a lot of shade in the summer when it gets hot.

[rwanders]

Definitely go at least 8" depth for your porches. I ended up going with 10" for my 10x24 doubledecker covered porches and was amazed at what the two extra feet did. I am also a big fan of covered decks/porches for many reasons, including rain, snow, sun and less maintenance. The pine posts can be a real work of art and should be adequate.

[Woodswalker]

Since I'm planning on adding a porch to my cabin this next summer, I appreciate the above discussion.  Locals (to L of me and security officer in pic) with porches tell me "make it as wide as possible, you'll wish you had."  I will be going with 8', maybe 10', with metal roof, floor supported by treated wood posts and a stout beam.

I think 6" posts from local timber will be sufficient.  Pic below is about a 6" post on an 8' wide porch with a metal roof, up the hill from my place.



Note that a smaller, locally cut, post supports a rail that is inlet at the ends into the posts supporting the roof.  This porch is at least 15 yrs old and has weathered considerable snow loads and high winds.  I plan on about the same setup, but will add balusters 4" OC to provide safety and better screening when I line up on Mongo, the mythical monster buck!

[OlJarhead]

In this picture the posts appear to be on the deck and holding up the roof.  Is this correct?  If so, how did you secure them to the deck?

I was thinking that the posts should go to the Pier block I'll use as a foundation for the deck...time to draw me thinks.

[Redoverfarm]

In this picture the posts appear to be on the deck and holding up the roof.  Is this correct?  If so, how did you secure them to the deck?

I was thinking that the posts should go to the Pier block I'll use as a foundation for the deck...time to draw me thinks.

There is extra blocking at the location under the post/over the piers in between the floor joist.  Then they are lagged from underneath. 

[MaineRhino]

I used forstner bits to drill the holes in the rails, each piece being slightly larger or smaller than the previous one. Then each piece was carved slightly so it fit the hole tight. No rot showing yet, but mushrooms are starting to grow on some of the railings. No sealer was used either.

Next time ( ) I will use a tenon cutter.

We also found that 6' is almost too small. Go 8' if in doubt.

The Advantech was later ripped out and composite decking was put in place.

[Mo]

I live in NC and when we were first starting to cut for our railing we were told to cut in the winter so the sap wouldn't be running. I don't know if this would be a problem for you or not.

[OlJarhead]

Did this one in Skeptup with a 4 foot deck around the sides and back and an 8 foot deck up front.  The clearnance to the roof of the cabin would be about 16 inches to the top of the wall with 1 foot overhand so I don't think snow will back up in there -- we don't get much wind.

Thoughts?

[Redoverfarm]

I live in NC and when we were first starting to cut for our railing we were told to cut in the winter so the sap wouldn't be running. I don't know if this would be a problem for you or not.

I usually cut in the spring when the sap is running.  That is if you want to peel the bark.  If you want the bark to remain then fall is better. 

[MaineRhino]

Thoughts?

I'm not sure of the snow load you get there, but a big snowstorm may put alot of snow on those side porches.

But, I like the design. Always did like the wrap-around porches!   

[OlJarhead]

Thoughts?

I'm not sure of the snow load you get there, but a big snowstorm may put alot of snow on those side porches.

But, I like the design. Always did like the wrap-around porches!   

I figure the side porches will be ok since they cover only 4 foot of deck and drop 2 feet over that distance -- the back porch will be a bit worse since the snow on the main roof will pile up on it but so far we've not had more then a couple feet dropping off the main roof (a pile on the front and back of the cabin of about two feet anyway) much of which I think will fall off.

The front porch roof on the other hand would drop 2 feet in 8 so that one might be a little tougher to manage as the 2+ feet of snow shedding off the main roof combined with what's fallen on that roof will create quite the load -- but maybe with strong framing to take the weight it will be ok?

If nothing else I'd have to clean it off periodically -- a big snow fall would suck though!  Imagine 2 feet of snow fall!  That would pile up several feet (what, maybe 5 or 6) on the porch roof which might be too much.

[davidj]

With serious snow loads you can end up needing pretty chunky beams.  For our 100 psf loading we need 6x8s just to hold up 7' of roof (6' porch, 1' overhang) space at 6' centers.  With a hip roof, this also meant double 2x10 hip rafters (double 2x8s might have worked, but they wanted the hips deeper than the commons).  This all seemed a bit over the top but was reassuring during the recent storms:

Fwiw, the deepest porch you could do without engineering under the pre-2007 CA code was 6'.  Now I think basically everything is engineered so that probably doesn't matter.

[davidj]

For those DF posts what was the overall cost?

We special-ordered resawn 6x6 posts so they would stain similarly to our resawn plywood siding.  Can't remember what they cost but it was expensive - our regular lumber is about 1.5x Home Depot, special order seems to be 1.5x again, and 6x6 #1s seem to be 2X the price of 2x6 #2s (per bf).  So I probably payed somewhere north of $3/foot, but the quality was a world apart from big-box lumber.  Another consideration is that our lumber yard does only charge $10/roundtrip delivery, which takes 1.5 hours and includes a bunch of dirt road - they work hard for their extra mark up.

[Dan]

I have a set of the giant pencil sharpeners.  takes a little practice to make nice straight tenons, but is a lot of fun and it turns out great.  Currently just have the inside posts and rails done, filling in later with large scale chain maille.  i'll be doing the deck rails the same this summer only not peeling them.

[OlJarhead]

I love it!  That's the same idea I have -- did you get your cutters from lumberjacktools?  or somewhere else?

I'd be curious if there much of a price difference and your opinion on them?

[Dan]

I love it!  That's the same idea I have -- did you get your cutters from lumberjacktools?  or somewhere else?

I'd be curious if there much of a price difference and your opinion on them?

I think i looked at their site when shopping, and ended up buying a set off ebay, from a seller called indestix.  Pretty similiar design, but much less expensive.  I've been happy, seem well made and work well.  One main difference is mine are a single blade design, theres are a 2 blade.  My guess would be the two blade would work better, but I'm happy with mine for the price savings.  Here is a link to a current auction of the set I got.  http://cgi.ebay.com/Multi-Tenon-cutter-and-2-log-furniture-rustic_W0QQitemZ270527468639QQcmdZViewItemQQptZRouters_Bits?hash=item3efcb1945f

[Pine Cone]

I have some tenon cutters which are the large to huge pencil sharpener type and also have the router-based tenon maker which is better for the really large tenons > 1.5" diameter.  If you haven't found out about Baileys Logging supply it's time you knew about them.  Good products, prices and service.  I've been buying from them since 1984.
http://www.baileysonline.com/search.asp?SKW=KW162&catID=230


You can use logs for posts and railings.  The trailer roof in the picture below is supported by peeled Douglas-fir posts which are about 3 to 5 inches in diameter.  The roof poles are about the same.  They have supported that roof for about 20 or 30 years at least.  They were built by the previous owner of the property.

More snow means you would need bigger posts, and try to keep the branch/knot size to something small (less than 1/4th the diameter of the tree stem at that point)


I'd go for 8-10" base diameter (after peeling) at least given your snow load.  Ponderosa pine trees 12" diameter normally have about 20-30 board feet of scale volume, at $250/thousand board feet that makes a 12" tree worth about $5-$7.50 each.  You might be able to find someone willing to sell you some for firewood if you don't have ones on your property you want to cut.  

Good luck!