Septic -Engineered System

[glenn-k]

Note - copied from old forum.
I asked my friend and neighbor, Harry about his engineered sand filter system.  
He was good enough to supply us with information regarding his system.

Note: The following owner-builder comments are just that and nothing more.  
For definitive information, a professional engineer or registered sanitarian should be consulted.  

Sand filter comments:

Sand filters are sort of a mixed blessing. They can provide important
benefits, including allowing a septic system on ground that would not
support one at all otherwise, but they are very expensive. They are
typically required by government entities because the combination of the
effluent volume and natural precipitation may exceed the percolation
capability of the soil, resulting in effluent rising to the surface in the
leach field. By adding another level of effluent cleaning, they serve to
protect the groundwater from effluent contamination, which helps to keep
domestic well water pure. They may also be required simply as a barrier to
entry to a locality by increasing the cost of building a home by $18-$20K.

Locally, I have seen saturated leach fields in areas with better soil and
better percolation than exist at the site pictured. Our soil contains quite
a bit of clay, and its percolation rates were not exemplary for leach line
purposes, so the sand filter system is probably justified at our location.
The effluent coming out of my sand filter, which amounts to an 8'x40'x4'
beneficial bacteria colony, will be much cleaner than what comes into it,
which would otherwise go directly into the leach lines. The volume of liquid
applied to the leach lines is also reduced by the evapotranspiration that
occurs in the filter, which should be fairly substantial. This should result
in extended leach line life, and less chance of saturation. Is it worth the
$9500 I spent and the work I invested in it? Hard to say, because I'll never
know for sure what would have happened without it. However, since it was
required to get a building permit for the project, I felt that I had little
choice but to build it.

What will the future bring? There is talk about systems with sensors that
send information about system operation, and conditions such as effluent
level, to a remote monitoring station. It's compiled into a database, and
officials are notified if a problem is indicated. Naturally, the owner of
the system will pay for this service on an ongoing basis. There is also talk
of periodic official inspections of systems and equipment, and a fee for
that would certainly be assessed. In a related area, efforts are said to be
afoot to make privately owned wells subject to regular government scrutiny,
and eventually brought under government ownership, as is the case in Nevada.

The controls on septic systems are currently being argued/discussed before
the Water Resources Control Board for inclusion in California Assembly Bill
885, which will impose state-mandated monitoring requirements on septic
system owners through the counties and cities. The bill and related
information may be seen at:  http://www.swrcb.ca.gov/ab885/index.html


Continued

[glenn-k]

Gluing liquid-tight boot for effluent outlet pipe into filter liner. Note tee at right, to be installed just ahead of boot to accommodate vertical inspection pipe visible in other photos. 4" pipe allows effluent level monitoring and sampling; aids in troubleshooting blockages.  Sawcuts visible across top surface of outlet pipe allow treated effluent to enter pipe and exit filter to leach field.


Effluent outlet pipe w/sawcut slots in top, sloped to create proper flow to leach field. Pipe will be covered with a 7" layer of pea gravel, then filter will be nearly filled with sand before effluent inlet manifold is installed. Sand must be of specified particle size to allow growth of beneficial bacteria that consume harmful components of effluent. Filter measures 8'x40'x4', or 1280 cubic feet.


White-topped steel fencepost at center of right filter side marks opening of effluent inlet pipe, visible connecting three distribution pipes running along length of filter.  1/8" discharge holes are drilled 24" OC in top wall of pipe, then an orifice shield is snapped over them.  A specific volume dose of effluent is pumped from the septic tank into filter when liquid level in tank reaches a pre-set level. Pressurized effluent squirts out holes, hits underside of shields, and is dispersed down into filter sand.  Note inlet manifold is bedded in layer of pea gravel, to avoid presence of particles in this area small enough to plug discharge holes.



Effluent distribution pipes angle up and out of filter. A cap with an orifice is installed for system pressure testing with clean water by building inspector, then replaced with a solid cap for system operation. Filter bed was formed with OSB, then covered with 30 mil PVC liner.  Right side and ends of filter were initially unsupported because filter was built into a sidehill. To avoid collapse, a layer of material was put inside filter, then a layer of backfill was laid against the outside, alternating until filter was full. Backfill level is just out of sight below top edge of end and right side.


Plumbing is complete, and filter is ready to be capped with sand. No soil will be applied to filter surface, and cap will be crowned for positive drainage.


Continued

[glenn-k]

Filter with cap layer in place. More material may be added later for better drainage. Leach line ditches visible in background.




View of distribution box and top row of leach line infiltrators. Use of infiltrators eliminates need for sloped perforated pipe and leach rock in leach lines. They are nearly rectangular in section, 34"W across the open bottom side x 76"L x 14" H. Sections snap together; bend adaptors, end caps, and other heights are available. Open bottom and slots in the sides distribute effluent into leach field soil.





All three 100' long x 3'wide leach lines are plumbed. Feed pipe to third line is visible exiting d-box.  Adjustor plates at d-box outlets were used to achieve equal effluent distribution to all lines. Size of sand filter, effluent dose volume, and leach area required are based on expected water usage, soil type, and soil percolation rate established by tests conducted by an engineer or sanitarian.

Thanks again to Harry for putting this presentation together.  Note: Harry did this as a DIY project.  Hope I posted it right.

[glenn-k]

Reply from Peter (Benevolance)

Pretty awesome pictures and description...

When you think about how limited and precious water is in California and Nevada...There can be no arguing for the need of stringent laws surrounding waste getting into the water table.

I am all for advanced septic systems...But I personally think that there should be two systems...One for Fecis...And another for everything else...So long as we do not pour solvents and paint down the drain that water does not need near the filtration and the life of the septic tank would be extended ten fold... also the cost and expected volume for the septic system would be diminished.

I also believe that in Large coastal cities where salt water is plentiful and abundant...That toilet water used to flush should be sea water...And be pumped from the Ocean to flush toilets..And then go into a filtration process to  be treated. This way we would  preserve our fresh drinking water for irrigation and drinking...Not for flushing toilets.

I know this would mean building another set of water and sewer lines...But think about it...Easily half the water we use is just for the toilet..They are fighting to the Death in Isreal over water...Say what you want..But in each conflict surrounding Isreal and it's neighbors water has been an issue and each time borders changed the lines were redrawn over a piece of valueable water...

Point is that if there was twice as much water to go around there would be more arable land and less need to kill each other over what precious land and water we currently have.

Okay sorry off topic I know.

I am bad for that
-Peter



Reply from Daddymem

I've designed and oversaw construction of a 10,000 gpd recirculating sand filter septic system (RSF).  They are expensive and there are other things out there that make more sense to install due to better treatment, better maintenance, and cheaper final costs.  The RSF is cheap material wise (compared to the other alternatives) but the labor involved is high.  There are other issues as well.  A trickling filter type system is the way to go for individuals.  

Reply from glenn kangiser

Peter -what about cost of desalinization of the saltwater before it kills all vegetation and ruins the soil where it is disposed of?

Daddymem, do you have any info on that type of system and costs for an individual?  Thanks.
     
Amanda_931

There are non- and semi- engineered systems around as well.

The Earthshiptm people have theirs pretty well down, starting to think about selling retrofit systems.  And there's an interesting roof washer arangement a ways down on the page here:

http://www.earthship.org/learn/

And I do know people who funnel their greywater into 55 gallon drums with holes in the bottom (or loader tires with the bottom sidewall cut off) filled with sand.  Have to scrape the top layer of sand off occasionally--it's what does the work, but sometimes it clogs.  Not to code.  Works, maybe unless you're a typhoid carrier.

Not good for the winter time, but if it takes the water from an outdoor shower, who cares.


Daddymem

     
     Re: Septic - Engineered system
« Reply #7 on: Nov 21st, 2005, 9:11am »       
For a wealth of information on these alternative systems, see here:
http://www.buzzardsbay.org/etimain.htm

The RSF fact sheet is here:
http://www.buzzardsbay.org/etistuff/results/rsfresults.pdf
The costs may be a bit off and of course you have the Northeast bump up too.

Orenco sells most components to construct:
http://www.orenco.com/

For a wealth of information about septic systems in Massachusetts:
http://mass.gov/dep/water/laws/policies.htm#t5guid

The rules I had to follow for my system:
http://mass.gov/dep/water/rsfguide.pdf

And last, but not least here is a gift for you.  Septic systems in plain English:
http://www.learntitle5.org/Toc.htm
Keep in mind this is training for our State Regulations, but hey, it all flows downhill wherever you are, right?


     
benevolance

     
     Re: Septic - Engineered system
« Reply #8 on: Nov 21st, 2005, 9:29am »       
We designed a system when I was a boy...And when the family bought a old farm house and built on...We plumbed into the 100 year old system which was a holding tank basically that needed to be replaced...

We had greywater tanks down below the frostline in the ground for the laundry room and the shower drains

200 gallon tank with 50 pick holes in it...4 feet of sand below it...and 4 feet of inch clear rock below that...It worked perfectly...

The first rule of plumbing and septic is that shi* runs downhill....we had that covered.

When we replaced the holding tank...We installed a bigger tank and a septic field...It was a little rudimentary...But we were working on a side hill with 6% slope...So the field did not have to be extensive...As gravity takes care of a lot...

[glenn-k]

Benevolance cont'd

In Nova Scotia you can look upthe code, design a septic system yourself and install it...But you better do a pretty good job...The inspector will come out and check with ultraviolet cameras.. after they flush radioactive dye down the toilet...They look for leaky fields etc...

Basic starter system there to have installed is about 10k...If you have to add extra sand for a raised field...If you have rock problems...whatever...You are looking at 20k...If you need a pressurized system you are looking at even more.

They will never tell you that you can install your own and they will even threaten to revoke your occupancy permit...But you can install them yourself...I have helped on a few...

One of the biggest problems I see with the few systems I have dug up to repair is that they were never designed for the GPD they are seeing...People skimped when they installed the system bare minimum for code and then 10 years later they have the basement rented to 5 college kids and the upstairs rented to 5 college kids and the system is seeing  3 times the water/sewage it was designed for.

really popular for people to renovate a old lakefront cabin that was 12x18 and turn it into a 2 story mansion that is 30x40....And all of a sudden there are ten people using a one person septic system

No wonder the systems always fail.

benevolance

     
     Re: Septic - Engineered system
« Reply #9 on: Nov 21st, 2005, 9:32am »       
Glenn

You could deal with the Salinity of the water when you were treating the swage...And I believe the salinity in the water would help break down the sewage

Hell just treat the saltwater sewage and release it back into the ocean...No harm done and it saves trillions upon trillions of gallons of potable water for drinking and irrigation

Saltwater sewage treatment is nothing new...Cities like Halifax and Boston had their sewers drain into the harbours for centuries...And now they have treatment facilities in the harbours themselves to remove the sewage from the saltwater

-Peter
     
glenn kangiser

     
     Re: Septic - Engineered system
« Reply #10 on: Nov 21st, 2005, 8:54pm »       
Thanks for the info Daddymem.. Lets see now - I'm at 3000 feet elevation.  Cape Cod is probably about 150' elevation.  Looks like I'll have to flush so you'll have water.

Peter -I think West coast cities flush to the ocean too- people have to swim with their mouths closed at the beaches in LA every once in a while.  So many floaters - it's embarrassing.



benevolance





     Re: Septic - Engineered system
« Reply #11 on: Nov 21st, 2005, 9:30pm »       
Glenn

Well the east coast cities are now treating the sewage...So the floater problem you are talking about is not a issue...

Salt water actually breaks up sewage.. or breaks it down...and small amounts of sewage create no pollution problems... If you cna release the sewage further out where strong currents under the surface can whisk the crap away and mix it up...Treatment does not need to be extensive at all.

My point was that if we are just going to dump sewage (treated or not) out to sea...Why waste valuable and precious fresh water when sea water would do just nicely?

-Peter
     
glenn kangiser


           Re: Septic - Engineered system
« Reply #12 on: Nov 23rd, 2005, 12:27am »       
Thanks for the above links, Daddymem -that study course on septic systems is great.  I got 1 section quickly studied- - I want to go through them all though.  The test questions at the end really help.
     

Daddymem


     Re: Septic - Engineered system
« Reply #13 on: Nov 23rd, 2005, 4:51am »       
Yeah I like it because it fills in the blanks...gives us the "why's" of the regulations and not just the regulations.  Those alien looking pathogens are scary!  
     

[glenn-k]

I guess we want it all working right because ultimately we drink this stuff.  Surprisingly it doesn't take a great amount of soil if things are working right-- 5' separation vertically if I read it right.  Codes limit us to 100 to 150 feet minimum horizontal to a well or 50 feet to seasonal water - I guess that could change locally.  There are also requirements to dropoffs of fill areas -basements etc. of 4 times the vertical drop or 100 feet setback -whichever is less --from the edge per our inspector.





John Raabe
Administrator
*****

Whidbey Island, WA

 

     Re: Septic - Engineered system
« Reply #15 on: Nov 25th, 2005, 9:04am »       
Great discussion with lots of well worked up information!  

I think it is good for rural (and city) folks to understand the simple connection between the flushing of the toilet and the well that pulls up the tap water.

When you build a septic system in the right soils everything is naturally dealt with by microbes in the dirt and water is purified as it works its way down to the water table.

When the bear poops in the woods or the deer dies and rots, all that nasty stuff is washed into the soil, filtered, treated and out comes pure water. Nature doesn't need any help with this as there is a whole ecosystem of tiny unseen workers who love this kind of work.

It is only when we try to build in human communities too dense or soils too dense that we run into problems demanding special equipment like the options mentioned above.

I think there is still much more research that needs to be done on small scale residential treatment systems.  

Has anyone done an aerobic system where oxygen rich air is pumped through the effluent? I guess a remaining big problem in some soils is still getting the large volume of now nearly pure water back into the soil.

[Harry51(Guest)]

Peter, thanks for the kind words. They're appreciated!  

I discovered in looking at some of the septic links provided by Daddymem that if you wish to build an "innovative/alternative" septic system, such as a sand filter system,  in Massachusetts, you must show that you have contracted with a state-licensed technician to monitor your system. The contract must extend to the expected life of the system, and includes sampling and testing requirements. The shape of things to come here in the west? I think so............

Harry51

[glenn-k]

I wonder how much that costs?

[harry51]

Good question!  The troublesome thing is, it's an ongoing expense, like a subscription, I would think.  One-time expenses are incurred, and absorbed, and you're finished with them. It's that monthly overhead that makes it so hard to withdraw from the rat race and pursue your dreams. We can always depend on government to keep us on the treadmill!

Harry51

[glenn-k]

I think I get it now, Harry.  A company with a lobbyist or cousin in the right place gets legislation introduced that insures his company a continuous stream of income at the expense of the individual.  The state will get their cut by not only licensing the inspector but probably by requiring the filing of a report for a fee.--(Just guessing on the last statement).

[Daddymem]

Peter, thanks for the kind words. They're appreciated!  

I discovered in looking at some of the septic links provided by Daddymem that if you wish to build an "innovative/alternative" septic system, such as a sand filter system,  in Massachusetts, you must show that you have contracted with a state-licensed technician to monitor your system. The contract must extend to the expected life of the system, and includes sampling and testing requirements. The shape of things to come here in the west? I think so............

Harry51

This is partially true.  For the first year to three if the system operates at acceptable levels, you can easily petition the state to go from quarterly testing to yearly testing.  As more systems get installed and prove they work, they eventually get on the "General permit" list which requires fairly minimal testing and operations.  Systems such as the one we are going to install come with an internet connection that allows the company to log in and see how the system is doing, while not treatment levels, it gives a wealth of operation information with little work on the operator's part so smaller fees.  I have a pump station installed that has a cell phone system similar to this, the reports are made on a web page the Town, myself, and the client can log on to.  This system also automatically handles alarm issues by making calls in order until a human answers.  This stuff is called SCADA if you want to search for more information.

[Daddymem]

One fatal flaw with discharging wastewater into the ocean....there is more to effluent than the nasty stuff we usually think of.  Vitamins, minerals, hormones, medicine, birth control-these are things just coming out of our body and into the waste.  What about stuff people just put down there? Illegal drugs, cleaners, poisons, fertilizers, pesticides.  Can you guarantee that the WWTP treats for this stuff?  No, because the list of things you would have to treat for is as long as the list of things you can think of that can go down the drain.  With a subsurface discharge, you can at least count on some treatment through the ground, trapping nasties.  Truth is, there is no sure fire way to make sure the nasty stuff doesn't get into water supplies..it is up to us all to pay attention to what we put down there.
Here is an article of what ocean discharges are doing to fish in California:
(Scroll down to: 11:07/06. SEXUALLY ALTERED FISH FOUND OFF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA COAST:)
http://www.fishsniffer.com/fishlink/

The other issue is if you don't have 100% separate systems where only salt water is being flushed into the system that discharges into the WWTP that discharges to the ocean, you are moving water from one place to the other.  Back in the 70's there were state and federal grants abound to build WWTPs...thoughts are begining to change.  In this system, I draw water from an aquifer beneath me (or across town), flush it down the toilet where it travels to a WWTP that discharges it to a river in another aquifer area.  The better solution is to draw water from an aquifer, use it, treat it, then discharge it back into that aquifer (not another aquifer or the ocean).  That means private wells and private septic.  Even better is to have community wells and septic to provide the best protection from all.

Of course this all can be region specific, for example, I live over a huge aquifer so pretty much all the water around me is connected.  Other places in this country may be over aquifers that could not support the community needs, or can't take in the discharge fast enough (poor soils).  Here the solution is to withdraw water from another source, treat it, and discharge it back to that source.

[glenn-k]

http://www.ioerror.us/2005/12/12/marylands-new-flush-tax/

You pee, you poo, you pay.  That's right, everyone's toilet in Maryland is now a pay toilet.

Obviously this is an emergency tax law enacted to deal with the excessive amounts of untreated fecal matter flowing from Washington D.C. and the White House.  I'd say shut up and pay it willingly.

[benevolance]

30 bucks  is not bad if all the proceeds go directly to building more sewage treatment plants...

Every city in America needs to make sure that they are not dumping excess nitrogen and phosporous into local waterways

-Peter

[harry51]

The discussion of wastewater discharge to the ocean has been interesting. This is being done in Northern California after pre-treatment. Info is available at:

http://www.humboldt.edu/~ere_dept/marsh/flow1.html

The idea of returning water to its source aquifer makes a lot of sense where it is possible to do so, for the same reasons that we have laws against diverting surface water from one watershed to another.

And Glenn, belatedly, you did post it right!

Harry51

[glenn-k]

I have big reservations about returning water to an aquifer even after it has been treated.  I have dealt with so called water professionals in my well drilling days - I went to bat for a small town and told the geo-hydrologist that he had contaminated the test well all the way to 900 feet deep by using contaminated makeup water on his test well, and that if he drove sealed casing to 400 feet he would get clean water.  A new well was drilled on my say so and done as I specified.  I was right -- he was wrong-- the town got their new 400 foot well and did not have to put in the multi-million dollar treatment plant he was trying to sell them.

I think if aquifers are recharged it should be through wetlands - surface ponds etc. where the soil can do it's thing-- of course it has to be taken care of also- but direct replacement seems to be inviting disaster to me.

[Daddymem]

Not for sewage...rain water by all means, but you need the particle transport trapping actions you can get in soil prior to contact with the aquifer.  If you use surface waters for your treatment, those surface waters are polluted.  You can use lagoons and man made wetlands but it is horrific to use natural wetlands for discharge of sewage.  This is why we have subsurface sewage disposal in the first place.  Massachusetts went the surface water route years back..the surface water discharge permit is on the books still but they do not give permits for that anymore...it is just the wrong way to do things.  One mistaken driller does not a make an entire science/field wrong.  Simple mass balance, if you take from, you have to put back.  Properly installed and maintained subsurface systems are absolutely the way.

[glenn-k]

I am in agreement with what you are saying - I thought you were talking of some kind of well etc to get the water back to the level it came from in the same stratum of the aquifer.  We have an aquifer in the San Joaquin valley that has multiple clay layers, that while connected together over large areas where the edges of the lenses terminate, they all have different static levels when kept apart by solid casing.  Rotary wells with gravel packs tend to cause much cross contamination, as whether they want to admit it or not, the the water is constantly moving up or down day and night from the different layers of the aquifer trying to equalize.  Generally the upper levels of the aquifer being of higher static pressure and more contaminated, flow toward the lower levels of the aquifer trying to raise them to their level.   The flow is from the upper level into the well through the perforations then down the well to a lower water bearing stratum and out through the perforations, I estimate that some wells move millions of gallons of water per day internally.  I noticed this movement when I did under water videos for well problems.  All strata are tied together through a gravel packed perforated well with the casing being an free open conduit for continuous travel of contaminated water of higher static level flowing  down to lower uncontaminated levels with lower static pressure.

Hope that all makes sense.

[Daddymem]

Yeah it did  

[glenn kangiser]

Talked with Harry this morning and he is started on the house project that goes with this system.  Coming our way soon. 

[peternap]

Boy is this one of my pet peeves. The nations health departments are so stuck in bureaucratic empire building, they can't get a new idea into the system.

Composting systems are a good example. There is no more environmental friendly system than composters. There is almost no downside. Because of that, Virginia was almost forced to approve them. Then they began to fight among themselves over Greywater disposal. The result.......composters are OK but you need a full blown, conventional septic system for the Greywater.

Thankfully there is a quirk in the law that allows composters with alternate greywater disposal and no health permit needed. It creates some irritating maintance and some shuck and jiving, but works.

This is the exact reason many mountain people have direct pipes. They don't want to deal with the red tape and take a I don't care attitude!

[glenn kangiser]

Once again - follow the money.

It creates massive amounts of revenue for the government and those who have lobbied to make it that way.  If they can't get into your pocket one way or another -- or send you to their peers so that they can make their killing then send you back so gov can get their cut they don't want it to happen.

In their imaginary bureaucratic revenue generating world, everything is a problem that costs money to fix.  In the real world nearly none of it creates a problem.  There are some situations that merit their concern but most are benign.

[ScottA]

10 years ago anyone could do their own septic system in Oklahoma. Just needed to get it inspected by the Dept. of enviromental quality at no charge. Now you must pay for a permit hire a licenced perk tester and a licenced installer. Even for your own house. I think forcing us to pay someone 75 bucks (300 bucks if they dig the hole) to come out and look in a hole for 15 minutes is retarded. It's no wonder we got folks back in the hills dumping raw sewage into the creeks.

Scott

[glenn kangiser]

Our county and feds people do that and get away with it, but the little guys are made to have state of the art systems.

After Yosemite Park put in their sewage "processing" system, gold dredgers who used to dredge in the river started getting ear infections and other diseases to where they had to quit.  The only ones there are the tourists and people who don't know what's going on.

Our county sewer plant is less than 100 feet from the creek and overflows or spills seasonally.  Both the river and the creek are nice deep green with algae in the summer due to all of the nitrates, I'm sure. The water pumping plant that supplies the town pumps from below the federal park effluent and goes to an open reservior miles away to pick up the rest of the animal poop and such.

I'm glad we have our own well.