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General => Owner-Builder Projects => Topic started by: altaoaks on August 20, 2010, 07:10:53 PM

Title: getting set to build
Post by: altaoaks on August 20, 2010, 07:10:53 PM
Hello to all.  This is the first time that i'm jumping in.  I have been following this forum for a couple months now, and my hats are off to all of you.  I'm still at the indecisive stage, but I am doing some type of small cabin.  We recently bought 2 1/2 acres in Alta, CA.  Thats a short 10 minutes from the Tahoe National Forest along interstate 80. 

We are in the snow line, and the well is there.  We need to put in a pump, and i'm thinking maybe a solar set-up.  We are butted up on 2 sides to 160 acres of Pacific Gas & Eletric land.  Nice, no neighbors over there!  Thing is, PG&E already have their new smart metors installed up there.  That sinched it for me.  We are going off grid.  Those smart metors are really offensive!  many people's bills have jumped 40% once they got those things, me included here where I live in the SF Bay area.  I dislike PG &E anyway.

Is anybody here building or built in Placer County?  Id love some 411 before approaching for  building permits.

Love all of your cabin projects, I look forward to all of you guys great advise.  By the way, we are rookies to building, and do plan on doing everything ourselves except plumbing and electrical.  Can't wait for your input!
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: Redoverfarm on August 20, 2010, 07:22:07 PM
 w*  altaoaks .  Can't really be much help on that end of the country but most on here are willing help. If you are not sure just ask.  There is probably someone thats "been there and done that".  Good Luck
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: Tom on August 20, 2010, 08:38:02 PM
Looking forward to your project
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: wannabuildacabin on August 20, 2010, 11:10:13 PM
 w* Im new here also and everyone has been a big help .
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: Pine Cone on August 21, 2010, 12:26:37 AM
 w* w*

Nice part of the world.  I used to live about 20 miles SE of Alta in El Dorado County.  Can't help much with building permit info since I haven't lived in the area for over 20 years.  At one time they were pretty reasonable, but lots and lots of people have moved into Placer county in the last 40 years. 

I think the new fire safety codes have put lots of restrictions on materials and design details in rural areas.   Having been around wildland fire fighters for the last 35 years I'd have to say that many of the code changes are reasonable, but it all adds up to more government and more up-tight county enforcement folks.

More details can be found here.  Alta is in a State or Federal Responsibility Area w.r.t. wildland fire first attack response.
http://www.fire.ca.gov/fire_prevention/fire_prevention_wildland.php (http://www.fire.ca.gov/fire_prevention/fire_prevention_wildland.php)

So when do we get to see a picture of the property ???
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: altaoaks on December 04, 2010, 06:05:52 PM
Hi everybody, sorry for the hatius.  i am still here and kicking, still checking on what all of my buddies are up to on the forum, but drowning in company from the big apple who seems to like california a bit  too much.  been at my house for almost 3 months and i think i will need to pack his bags and put a postage stamp somewhere stratagic.  my husband says we made him too confortable. 

anyway, i am back to the business of preparing to build.  i took a ride over to the auburn planning, building, and environmental health departments.  to say i was in shock is a BIG understatement!  placer county has some really high fees.  how about a 1000 sq ft house with a garage, covered front porch, and a small back deck is going to cost approx. $20 grand! 

yes, that is really $20,000 for a building permit.  if the house is bigger, the cost is bigger :(  ???   and if that isnt enough, anything over 120 sq ft needs a permit!  could it get any worse?  did i say we wanted to build with cash and stay mortgage free?  well that might mean building will be a bit delayed, like maybe another year or two!

i dont know which emotions are the strongest:  anger, shock, dismay, frustration, and this over-governing arm of our govt. is really a eye-opener.  big brother is in the drivers seat!

the only good news was from environmental health: the previous owners septic permit is expired but all they need from us is $385. and submit a new copy of the same paperwork that had been submitted by them.  thank god for some good news.

i have photos to submitt but cant find my USB cable to upload them.  i will do that soon.

im trying to figure out how to do an underground house so i can keep my $20 grand, but i dont know if the 2 neighbors near me are cool, or not!  but i truely resent paying this obscene amount of money for a permit, especially given my personal belief is that you shouldnt need permission to build on your own land.

i guess i somewhat understand the need to make sure the primary home is up to code, but sheds, barns, stc. should be free and unpermitted.  we the people have allowed our government to take too much control.  well, that we will build is for sure, when is in question.  the other good news is that the plans do not need wet stamped or engineered, unless we do anything unusual or extraordinary.  after giving them 20 grand we wont have enough $$ left to do any of that! (haha).

the snow load is 78 lbs.  and they dont have any frost line requirements. but we will do at least 2 ft. i guess to be safe regardless.  i would think with snow most of the winter months there would be a minimum requirement.

i cant wait to get suggestions from anyone.  maybe we should just build a bunch of 8X10 sheds!
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: speedfunk on December 04, 2010, 07:30:21 PM
wow.. to say govt is overstepping is bounds is an understatement.   20K!!!!!!!!!!!

I just read the hand sculpted house and one trick is using a trailer as the OFFICAL house and building what you want behind it. 

Def feel out your neighbors.

always easier to ask forgiveness then permission esp in this case where its pure robbery..

GL!

Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: Don_P on December 04, 2010, 08:04:54 PM
Umm, I monitor inspector's forums. Forgiveness is not guaranteed, they do remove offending builds/ charge double fees and require engineers regularly.
We demand our local gov'ts not raise property taxes, so they raise fees. It's one or the other, my property taxes went up 40% this year.
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: altaoaks on December 05, 2010, 03:04:19 PM
thanks for the respond speedfunk and don.  yes, it is really highway robbery.  its not any different than the guy sticking up the corner store except they dont need a gun.  they have you over a barrel and they know it.  as don said, i also have met people who were charged double for doing it without permits.  man, that would hit about $40 grand!  and i have heard stories about being made to demolish and re-build.  its all pretty scarry.

it really is about fees.  im looking at this hand-out i asked them for.  $3227 for a "traffic fee".  $3926 for a "park fee".  $3695 for a "facility fee which includes animal services".  then there are numerous fees for plan check, plumbing, electrical, mechanical, and building fees.  in addition to all of that they charge seperate fees for sq. footage on everything right down to additional charges for covered porches. and there are still fees for schools and fire, and  something called 7A. they couldnt tell me the school portion, i have to contact the Alta/Dutch Flat school and get those numbers.  fire is .65 a sq ft under roof.

i also found out all windows must be tempered glass (on the exterior side) and all materials rated especially for our forest fire rating.  i have seen that I-80 corridor from auburn to reno on fire at least 6 times, and its unbelievable to see thousands of acres in red embers and just unstoppable.  during the day its just smokey, and you see a few flames.  at night it looks like a sea of red hot coals.  i wont argue with them about fire-proofing.

well, where there is a will there is a way,  underground is sounding better and better all the time.     








Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: Squirl on December 06, 2010, 09:41:27 AM
Well, just like most politics, building departments are local.  You must have a lot of people that want to build there or they don't want anyone to be there.  I don't know how land prices are around you, but for me, I would sell even at a loss and go somewhere else.  20k was more than I paid for the land or plan on spending on the building.  Voting with your feet or dollars as they say is sometimes the only thing they listen to.  If fees are too high and people start selling low, property taxes and revenues go way down.  Towns can price themselves into default or poverty.  I would also take the time to make yourself and problems known to the local politicians and see if they are willing to do anything.  Good luck.
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: Bob S. on December 06, 2010, 08:02:47 PM
Is there any size that does not require a building premit? I saw on another post that you are thinking about building under 200 sq. What if you built several structures one for kitchen one for bedroom ect? all built so as you could jack them up and put them on a trailer and moved if you had too.
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: MountainDon on December 06, 2010, 08:20:17 PM
The costs and requirements sure vary across the country. I just heard about a guy in Arkansas, I think... (some place with hillbillies and that was his self description, not mine) Anyhow, all his building department wanted was $50 and they told him he could build it out of Legos for all they cared.
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: Don_P on December 06, 2010, 08:29:02 PM
In no code is a "habitable" structure of any size allowed unpermitted that I know of... on the books. That is an accessory structure exemption. YMMV, wildly  :D.

High fees are also a way of outlawing poor people  ;)
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: dmanley on December 06, 2010, 08:50:56 PM
We're getting ready to start a small (12x16) cabin in Scott Co. Tn, and to quote the county; "At this time Scott County does not have any building ordinances or permitting in place".  Permits are only required for water, electricity, and septic and they are very reasonable.  Sure seems like some other places around the country are gouging pretty deep with permits and such. 
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: altaoaks on December 06, 2010, 10:46:05 PM
hi everybody.  you make me feel vindacated for the strong emotions i have been having since getting the fee news!

squirl, im not ready to throw in the towel yet, but if i cant figure something out i guess i could try voting with my feet.  its just that property is not a hot selling commodity right now, and i would really hate to loose money.  i am considering just getting it paid off and sitting on it until it will sell, and in the mean time looking for another piece of land (ill research the building permit costs first) where its much more affordable. 

bob s, we can put up a "shed" 120 sq ft or less, but not with electrical or plumbing.  we were thinking about a builders cabin until we got to the house, but thats mot much better than a tent.

mountain don, i could start to like being a hillbilly, especially if i could actually build on my own land without such outlandish fees.

don p, given that there are a lot of poor people in that area, and some very wealthy ones also, i think you may be on to something---i think they gave it some thought and decided they liked the higher taxes from those folks in tahoe and truckie, and decided to raise fees to control feasability of poor people, or at least middle class and under, from coming in.  feels like a conspiricy to me!


d manley, i could really love scott county, tn.  no building permit or planning department,  i would like to order one of those please.

well, im giving a lot of thought into getting a flatbed trailer, one of the builders or big enchalads plans, and going for it.  if they come knocking at my door ill tell them im a motor home, and thats my story and im sticking to it.  that way they get no fees!
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: h0rizon on December 07, 2010, 11:51:09 AM
I can't help but think some of those fees are kinda fishy.  Why is there a "park fee" and a "facility fee which includes animal services" for a building permit?  I am not from California so I don't understand their systems, but that almost seems like something you might have to pay after you have a home built.  

I am not sure if you had done this already, but did you press them on these fees further?  Ask them exactly what these fees are paying for/covering, who needs to pay them and why?  Maybe they made a mistake or were trying to spook you into not building?

I did a quick google and found the placer county ca fee schedule (http://www.placer.ca.gov/Departments/CommunityDevelopment/Building/~/media/cdr/BLD/BldgFeeSchedRev05132010.ashx) .  I don't see any mention of park or facility fees.  It only says:

A. Building Permit Fee - 50% of the Fee as set forth in the Fee Schedule (Table 3-A)
in addition to any Electrical, Plumbing, and Mechanical Fees.

Granted that is county fees, so perhaps the township added in some extras fees or something?

On a side note, their valuation system stinks if i'm reading it right.  They actually list a 30% premium valuation if you have a "good quality" residential addition over a "average quality" one.  Who determines that?  ???  What you might also find interesting to note is they value "Residential use converted from garage, basement, or unfinished area" much lower than regular additions.  If you build a "garage" first and then convert it living space, maybe you could get away with a lower valuation and hence lower taxes?
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: MountainDon on December 07, 2010, 12:20:15 PM
I can see the park fee as being money that is supposed to go towards developing community parks. That is charged to builders here, in town. But the amounts charged there are crazy.

Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: altaoaks on December 07, 2010, 12:27:58 PM
mountain don, thats what all these fees are making me, CRAZY!
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: John Raabe on December 07, 2010, 12:42:26 PM
I suspect that your county rules on building have been driven by past development on Lake Tahoe. This doesn't require a conspiracy by county officials, they are just responding to public pressure from their constituents who feel:
• Lake Tahoe and Placer Co. is a lovely pristine high mountain area with a spectacular lake (most of us agree!)
• We were here first and more people will spoil what we came here for.
• Prohibitively high fees and construction expenses will severely restrict new development, and this is a good thing!
• Reduced development will keep demand for existing houses high and protect my property values.

In places where lots of people would love to live and where land and housing are in high demand, you will also find zoning, building and other property restrictions to be high. This is telling you "we don't want you - don't move here".

In places where people have historically or recently moved away and land and housing prices have been dropping, you will find that rules, restrictions and building fees are also being reduced. This is telling you "we need people to support our county and pay taxes, come be part of this community".
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: John Raabe on December 07, 2010, 12:51:38 PM
Is it cold where you are?

Consider this an example of how things can change in a few years.

(https://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/countryplans/az-house.jpg) (http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/13927-North-132nd-Lane_Surprise_AZ_85379_M29640-38162)

http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/13927-North-132nd-Lane_Surprise_AZ_85379_M29640-38162

An 8 year old 3 bedroom 2-1/2 bath house for $250/mo (click property history). It sold for $140,000 in 2007. Property taxes were $841 in 2010 and the assessment value just dropped 25% for 2011.

This is saying "come on down, the weather is great!" (and it is now, but not in August.)
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: altaoaks on December 07, 2010, 01:00:33 PM
holly cow john!  that must be one hard hit by forclosure area!  you cant even build a house for that, much less by the lot to build on.  this must be a short sale, its just hard to imagine it comes to this???
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: MountainDon on December 07, 2010, 01:20:37 PM
They have entire neighborhoods for sale like that.
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: h0rizon on December 07, 2010, 06:34:12 PM
I know what happened to that house.

It was built in Surprise, Arizona.

"Surprise!  Your house is now worthless!  Betcha didn't see that coming!".

OK, bad joke. d*

CNN Money did an article last year on how cheap some homes had gotten.  Some where available for $1000 or less.  http://money.cnn.com/2009/01/08/real_estate/thousand_dollar_homes/index.htm. 

But I digress.  altaoaks I still think you should dig deeper into those fees and really try to find out what's going on.  If they truly do charge that outrageous amount for a simple building permit, I would hate to see the annual taxes or other "living expenses" the town/county imposes.  You may find it's cheaper in the long run to take a loss on the property now and move to the next county/town over.

I feel your frustration.  I would fall over myself.  But then they'd probably charge me a fallover fee.  >:(
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: MountainDon on December 07, 2010, 07:01:14 PM
I believe what John stated makes sense. Those already there don't really want any more neighbors and this is a perfectly legal method to keep new development to a minimum and preserve the value of those properties that are already developed.

Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: altaoaks on December 07, 2010, 10:52:51 PM
ouchhhhhhh! 
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: MountainDon on December 07, 2010, 11:03:51 PM
I don't mean to appear hard hearted, but...  It hurts when you want to join them, and I would not want to find myself facing those things if I was looking. I feel for altaoaks and anyone else facing fees that are designed to keep folks out.

However, I can understand the desire to limit development. It's one of the reasons we bought more land than we actually feel we need for what we want to do in our mountains. And also why I would like to own even more land, but don't want to have just land and no money left over for a cabin and other things. So we had to draw the line somewhere. But we also have a right of first refusal on the land next to us.
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: John Raabe on December 08, 2010, 11:13:24 AM
This is a very natural human brain effect... It's called the "lifeboat perspective".

Imagine you are on the Titanic and you know it's headed down. You can have two different perspectives depending on where you sit.

- If you are in the lifeboat and there are already folks in it, you don't want anyone else for fear that the it could endanger your safety. It looks crowded.
- If you are standing on the deck looking to get in the lifeboat, you see no problem with more people getting in that big boat.
- And, as soon as you get in, your perspective changes.

This is same thing is going on the island that I live on. The most adamant "no-growthers" are the most recent immigrants who want to pull up the drawbridge now that they have gotten aboard.
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: wildcottonroad on December 08, 2010, 07:05:40 PM
Quote from: h0rizon on December 07, 2010, 06:34:12 PM
I know what happened to that house.

It was built in Surprise, Arizona.

"Surprise!  Your house is now worthless!  Betcha didn't see that coming!".

OK, bad joke. d*

CNN Money did an article last year on how cheap some homes had gotten.  Some where available for $1000 or less.  http://money.cnn.com/2009/01/08/real_estate/thousand_dollar_homes/index.htm. 

But I digress.  altaoaks I still think you should dig deeper into those fees and really try to find out what's going on.  If they truly do charge that outrageous amount for a simple building permit, I would hate to see the annual taxes or other "living expenses" the town/county imposes.  You may find it's cheaper in the long run to take a loss on the property now and move to the next county/town over.

I feel your frustration.  I would fall over myself.  But then they'd probably charge me a fallover fee.  >:(


Not to drag this on, but a buddy of mine just bought a place in Surprise.  just under 2000 Sq ft, three large bedrooms, one small one and three baths.  Last time it was bought (in 2006...go figure) it went for about $240K.  He bought for a little over $70K.  They are going to use it for a vacation home.

Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: h0rizon on December 09, 2010, 10:52:39 AM
QuoteThis is a very natural human brain effect... It's called the "lifeboat perspective".

Very good analogy John, I think it fits perfectly here.  I can see both sides of this as well, my parents cringed when they saw a neighbor build a house on the property next to them.  Granted it was half a mile up the road but they still felt like they were getting crowded and they were nervous about what the neighbors would be like.

I guess my perspective is, if you already own the land then you should do what you can to make use of it.  It's free to ask questions, but it could be costly to sell and move elsewhere.  But you are all correct, it may very well be a futile effort and time wasted.  I didn't mean to push alta in the wrong direction.

QuoteNot to drag this on, but a buddy of mine just bought a place in Surprise.  just under 2000 Sq ft, three large bedrooms, one small one and three baths.  Last time it was bought (in 2006...go figure) it went for about $240K.  He bought for a little over $70K.  They are going to use it for a vacation home.

That's probably a very wise investment.  When properties like this suddenly drop sharply in price, investors tend to swoop in and buy up property.  They fix it up and rent it out cheap which draws people back into the neighborhoods.  Once the area is re-established they may choose to dump the property for large-sum profit.  I bet the area will have new life breathed into it in about 5 years. 

Just a thought; your buddy might want to invest in a good security system if one is not already installed.  With so many vacant/distressed homes in an upscale neighborhood, they are ripe for thieves.  That should also reduce insurance costs.
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: altaoaks on December 09, 2010, 11:20:38 AM
i also see both sides, the perspective by john, and the perspective by me (of course). 

i dont know the population of Alta, but i highly doubt that its more than 1000.  there is a little elementry school shared by both alta and dutch flat.  there is a post office, and a sort of a deli/merchantile where it seems everyone goes to hang out and chat but its not open much.  and thats all folks!  no grocery store, no gas station, no quaint little shops.  if you have  a need you either drive 45 minutes to truckie, an hour to tahoe, or 30 minutes down the hill to colfax or auburn.  big cities are a good hour down to sacramento, and a good hour up to reno.

i have difficulty seeing the over-crowding problem in this neck of the woods as you would have a tough time finding a "lot" for sale, and really a tough time finding less than 2 1/2 acres, most properties for sale around alta are 5 to 11 acres.  yes, i see why the status quo would strive to maintain that, but if you have acres of land around you, neighbors wont be under your nose.

i just feel that many rural counties have the same situation as this, and they need more of a tax base and enough people to sustain the area and schools, maybe to get a library and a gas station, and support your community.  this attitude works for tahoe, but not for alta, or dutch flat, or blue canyon, or frum forebay, any of the little micro communities around that area.

there should be some serious no-growth around lake tahoe.  we are pretty far from the rowes.
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: Junque on December 31, 2010, 09:06:49 AM
I am in the process of building (owner-builder) a home on the Oregon Coast.  Before deciding what to build, we did a lot of thinking 'outside the box' and considered all alternatives, from yurts to containers to pre-fab, etc.  In researching permits for a container building, a local contractor who specializes in them related how he built a home in Santa Cruz, CA for a couple.  Their container home had living space totalling about 2,000 s.f. (additional space was storage and garage) and the permits were over $50,000!!!  JUST the permits!!! He would also have to process a variance which would take upwards of 6 months to process!   :o  Permits for our home will total less than $2,000 and that's for total living space of nearly 3,000 s.f.  (So much for the small house concept we started with!)  But this will house more than one family and provide flexibility that a 'normal' house would not.

We had hoped to build a primary structure housing gathering space, kitchen, pantries and 'future space' in the attic with separate cottages or 'cabins' nearby... much like was suggested earlier.  Land Use regulations consider these to be 'accessory' buildings and those that are under 200 s.f. need no permits.  HOWEVER, we found out later that if they are to be occupied they MUST have permits, be built to code and inspected.  So, we have modified our original permit to include those buildings.  

Our big bite here is that there are no hydrants nearby and we are having to put in a a residential fire sprinkler system.  We are fortunate to have incredibly knowlegeable and supportive officials at the county to help us through this whole process.

I am interested in hearing what you finally decide to do.  The garage conversion sounds like a great idea to me!  Garage on the main level and 'shop' with bath on the second!  

Good luck!


Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: Squirl on December 31, 2010, 09:54:29 AM
 w* Junque
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: altaoaks on January 01, 2011, 01:40:50 AM
Hi Junque, WOW!  $50,000.  even higher than in Placer county.  if our build is over 2000sq ft the permit doubles, and over 3000 sq ft goes up again.  i think as near as i could figure a 3000 sq ft home would be between $40,000 and $45,000.  so its pretty crazy.

i dont know what we are doing yet.  im thinking smart would be to pay off the land, and either keep it as the taxes arent to high, or wait until the market improves and sell.  in any event we may seriously look at buying another peice of land somewhere that is not commiting legal robbery.

i think when you go out and buy your first piece of land, you never consider that building permit fees could be higher than what you expected your entire build to be.  these counties should come with a warning label, BEWARE! THE FEES MAY BE HAZARDOUS TO YOUR POCKETBOOK AND LIFESTYLE.

now i know, and would tell everybody, do not take anything for granted, costs vary widely county to county.  i think starting a thread in the land section where everyone chimes in to give koodos to areas with fair permits and taxes, and huge warnings in areas where you will not get a fair shake.

so it sounds like you are pretty far along with your project.  any pictures for us?  sounds like your county makes sure financially you cant do small multiple builds, and thats to bad.  but it also sounds like its all working out for you in the long run, and it will probably be a better result.

best of luck to you, and thanks for letting me know about santa cruz county.  at least i know im not alone in the miserable fee department.
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: Hi Road on January 01, 2011, 01:55:00 AM
altaoaks,

John hit it the nail on the head. Some times you "have to know when to hold'em and when to fold'emm".  As I sit hear with my family in front of a warm fireplace in the Northwest on this 14 degree night waiting for the new years to come in I look back at the decisions I have made over the last 63 years.  By far the best decision was to leave California.   You plight while trying to build at Alta is exactly why we moved out of California.   

We had a family ranch in Angels Camp (about 70 miles SW, the way a crow flies from Alta) that was literally being surrounded by government decisions.  All but a few in county government were known to me personally and few were kids I went to school with.  I lost my connection.  I felt like a stranger in my own hometown.  Our house was built during the gold rush period in California without a concrete perimeter foundation about 1860.  It was on a post and beam foundation.  We were going to rebuild when I inherited the place but after trying to work things out with the county they just about put a "Do Not Occupy" poster on the place.  Now mind you that this house had been occupied for over a 125 years at that time.  

I don't know how anybody can afford to live in a state where the largest business is the government.  There are over 38 million people living in California.  We left.  Unlike many I am in the boat that John described but am more than willing to scoot over and invite you aboard.
w*

Good Luck and Happy New Year
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: altaoaks on January 01, 2011, 02:37:44 AM
I'm with you in that Hi Road!  I'm thinking i just need to find the top of a mountain somewhere that to GOVT men can't get to, and where the "county" men don't care, and where someone could just find some peace on their own little piece of heaven.  i just object to all of the money-grabbing oversight.  i don't want much, just the impossible!  can dreams come true? 

Where are you located now, if i may ask?  did you find peace from oversight?  Tennessee is sounding good.  I was born in NM. (and homesick). and i guess i had better think about at least 20 acres, then they at least have to work at seeing what im doing on my own land!
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: MushCreek on January 01, 2011, 07:56:47 AM
I can't believe some of these permit fees. They're basically saying, "Unless you're rich, don't plan on building here." $50K would put me right out of the market. We were told our permits in SC will be 'several hundred dollars'. As near as I can calculate, it will be around $400 for our house.
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: cmsilvay on January 01, 2011, 08:31:47 AM
Quote from: MushCreek on January 01, 2011, 07:56:47 AM
I can't believe some of these permit fees. They're basically saying, "Unless you're rich, don't plan on building here." $50K would put me right out of the market. We were told our permits in SC will be 'several hundred dollars'. As near as I can calculate, it will be around $400 for our house.

But a "rich person's" house would be much larger and have more "toys". What I don't understand is they seem to be discriminating against a large part of the population. It would be on thing if this was private land and the development had rules but this is public land.
I spent most of my life in NJ and you needed a permit for everything. When we moved to OK and started our little adventure I was happily surprised when I was my question about permits was answered by the question whats a permit? [cool]
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: Don_P on January 01, 2011, 04:06:03 PM
Although I do believe there is alot of truth to what John said about closing the door behind themselves when people move "to the country", there are other ways this has been handled besides through fees. Building moratoriums and minimum lot sizes are a couple of other methods I've seen used. High fees sound an awful lot like keeping the po folk out. From a county's perspective though there is something to be said for that, for instance, ummm, how to put this as gracefully as possible, "mobile mansion refuse" are a dead loss to a county. They have very little property value to tax and typically use more school, police, fire and social services than those meager taxes can cover. None of that was PC but there it is. If they can pre screen newcomers and filter out the common folk in favor of the affluent they are money ahead in every way.

We have places in the county here that developers have wanted to put subdivisions in. A couple of places I can recall were remote from services and had bad access. The county zoning board refused to allow the use which was one way of dealing with it. Another would be to allow it but force them to pay for improving the roads for the traffic flow, increased sherriff's patrols, more brush trucks for the fire depts, etc. Since I am already here I would not want to pay an increase in my taxes to cover these people's increased need for services beyond what their taxes would cover. Across the road from me a fellow is putting in an illegal subdivision, I'm not sure how it will shake out. He lightly logged a large steep tract of land, thus his "logging roads" are the subdivision roads, one way of sneaking them in. He then divided the tract into lots that are above the minimum size, clearing that hurdle. The roads are steep and poor for traffic, the entrance sightlines are too short by road standards, the county road is too small for what would be the traffic count, there is inadequate power supply to the area to carry the load and there is no redundancy at this end of the line, which is me. When they need to upgrade I stand to lose land to the road and to the utilities through condemnation to support his development. But then I might get to go to work right across the road and if so might have some input on house placements that would harm my views less. There's almost always a few ways of looking at things  :-\.
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: altaoaks on January 02, 2011, 12:29:05 AM
placer county has quite a mix of very poor, lower-middle-and upper middle class, and very wealthy.  however i think these ludicrous fees are a result of poor financial management hence the need for an influx of $$$$$.  i see it as a fund-raiser.  they dont seem to wish to keep people out, in fact they seem quite welcoming.  even at the building department they were very easy going as far as blueprints go; no wet-stamp needed, no need under most circumstances to have anything special engineered, very casual about the blueprints, really far more workable than i expected given this is california with the most stringent requirements for everything!

the more people move into some of the out-lying areas the better their tax base is, and it would be a very long time before placer became over-crowded.  tahoe is very crowded, but everything else is really rural.

but the amount of the additional user fees are mind-boggling.  the thought of some counties charging only $400 is also mind-boggling.  i would be grinning from ear to ear.
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: altaoaks on January 19, 2012, 10:39:37 AM
Hi everyone, i've been around and peeking in on the forum news, but not posting much.  My concentration has been focused on paying off my land.  I'm getting closer to that goal.  I'm giong to post some pics soon.  I hope my low tech self can figure out how to do that, ok. I admit it, I am intimadated by this photobucket thing!

In the meantime, just venting...I drove up to my land 2 weeks ago and caught the next door neighbors cutting firewood, and they cut in most every area of my 2 1/2 acres.  They left the slash for me.  I was furious. 

They indicated that they had bought the land and cabin next door.  The thought was overwhelming, having a permenant neighbor who cuts down my trees, and worse, turns his area into a junk yard.  I also had to drive through piles of construction debries, traliers, and trash on both sides of my easement road to get onto my property.  more insulting, it starts along my property line so i have to look at it.

Well, he admitted he was in the wrong, and promised he would never cut on my property again.  That is a start, but it doesnt fix the junk yard issue.  What to do?

I checked the tax assessors office, they didnt buy the property ...WHEW!  dodged a bullet there.  they are renting through a property mgmt company.  I found out the "neighbors" moved onto that land when it went into forclosure and was empty.  Then when it was bought on the courthouse steps, they convinced the new owners they were long term tenants.  With that, they became renters!  So I have set the record straight, they were squatters, and now they are rapidly growing a junk yard there.  Its somewhat remote, and i guess the owners haven't been back to the property since july, 2010 when they took possession.  They will now, and I will be their pain in the ass until they deal with it.

Due to all of that, I am going to get fencing going this spring, sooner if the snow lets us???  So I looked at tube gates, I have a choice between a 12' or a 16' gate, any suggestions or advice on this?  Do i need a 16' for construction purposes?

I had intended to get the pump on the well this summer, but somehow the fence just seems so much more important now.  Good fences make good neighbors!  (these folks will never be good neighbors)

I'll get photos up in the next week or so, until then, peace!
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: Danfish on January 19, 2012, 11:33:54 AM
Sorry to hear about your neighbor problem, but may be an opportunity to get back some of the costs of doing business in Placer county.  County codes most likely contain provisions for dealing with the junk nuisance.  Probably best to start a dialog with the actual property owner (landlord)...sounds like the "renter" is someone to handle carefully.
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: Buckeye on January 19, 2012, 08:12:07 PM
Around here cutting someone else's trees is theft...plain and simple. You should be reimbursed the value of that timber.
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: altaoaks on January 19, 2012, 09:28:02 PM
Hi Buckeye and Danfish, yep!  it is theft, and i should called the sheriffs out and made the police report, but at the moment it happen i was so shocked to find him there doing that it just didnt cross my mind.  i am absolutely going through the mgmt company to put pressure on the owners to deal with the situation.

thats a thought, i'll check and see if there is a nuisence law there i could additionally persue.  wish i could get some of those fees covered, but it would be a long civil suit against the tenent who doesnt really have a pot to piss in, sorry to be so blunt.  he doesnt have a "job", just does odd construction stuff and not much of that. 

as a matter of fact this past october i spotted a pot growing operation along his cabin.  so if i cant get things settled in a nice way, i could wait until his crop is planted and call in the feds.  about 70' from his cabin is BLM land.  I had thought it was Pacific Gas $ Electric, and they do have control of that 160 acres, but it belongs to BLM!

I really dont care one way or the other if he is growing pot, you know how it goes in CA.  You get a grow card and can legally grow X number of plants, which varies from county to county.  But federal law trumps Calif. law, and its getting totally out ou control.  if you live in the mountains anywhere in calif. you have multiple neighbors all growning weed for a living.  It can get a little dicey what with these people trying to protect their investments.  I just want to protect my property!
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: Don_P on January 19, 2012, 11:03:34 PM
Timber trespass here is triple damages and they can work from the stumps.
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: altaoaks on January 24, 2012, 12:46:57 PM
I now know absolutely that my nuisence "neighbors" are just renters, former squatters made legitemate!  I also know that the property management company I contacted IS the owner of the cabin property next door.  I didnt want to make lifelong enemies of this guy if we were homeowners, thus close proximity neighbors.  Now that I know fully what i'm dealing with, NO PROBLEM!  I will definately make a call to the sheriffs department with any reason now.  The gloves are off!

So I am still waiting to hear the outcome, the owner did view my photos of his "junkyard" cabin property, and i understand he drove up their and spoke with his tenants the same day.  I am hoping its going to be good news, and if i have to call and make a sheriffs report on these people, my second call will be to the owner!  What is it they say, the noisy wheel gets oiled!  i'm looking for a lot of oil!

So i'm making calls today to see what its going to cost me to get a surveyer in to find the lower property marker.  That is my next move, then the "good neighbor" fence!  I want, at the very least, a gate up yesterday.

more news to follow, and i will get those pics up soon, i hope minus the junk piled up at my easement!
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: Squirl on January 24, 2012, 04:50:04 PM
Crimes such as theft and trespass generally have a statute of limitations of years not days.  The time lapsed should not be a hindrance to the authorities.

The problem is, people like this have already demonstrated they have no regard for the law or personal property rights.  Usually those type of people have already spent some time in jail or will frequently throughout their lives, so it is not much of a deterrent.
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: altaoaks on January 25, 2012, 12:56:03 AM
Squirl, you speak the truth!  But I hope that the threat of relentlesly not backing down will be a deterint.  Also, I hope the illegal activity over there will cause the owner to consider that his property could be siezed, especially if it could be shown he knew the tenants were conducting ilegal activity?  Maybe its wrong, but I dont care where they do what they do, as long as they do it somewhere else!

Its only been just over 2 weeks, so I could still make that sheriffs report.  The slash is all across my land, and the cuts are fresh.  They didnt take any big timber, just what came down in the storms, and also a number of branches here and there that hadnt fallen, but they thinned out much of my property where it should have been my choice if i wanted the tree branches or clusters of pines thinned.

I have a surveyer going up tomorrow (Wednesday) to see if he can find the fourth corner marker.  if not, we get started on that right away.

Any advice from you seasoned folks on the gate size?  Is 12' big enough for construction purposes, or should i go with a 16' gate?  any imput would be appreciated.
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: Redoverfarm on January 25, 2012, 08:03:34 AM
Quote from: altaoaks on January 25, 2012, 12:56:03 AM


Any advice from you seasoned folks on the gate size?  Is 12' big enough for construction purposes, or should i go with a 16' gate?  any imput would be appreciated.

It just depends on the location of the gate.  If it is a straight approach through the gap then 12' should be sufficent.  Although if there is a turn on either side of the gap then I would go with 14-16'.  I have one myself ( turn on one side) which is fine with either the truck or tractor by itself but add an impliment or trailer and it is a tight fit. 
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: rick91351 on January 25, 2012, 09:46:20 AM
I agree with John a 16 foot.   I chose to to go with a 10 and a 12.  It is easier on the gate posts.  I can just open the 12 and run the pick-up truck and the four wheelers and car in and out of there all day.  But if I have my stock trailer or flatbed, or my renter is in and out of there with the gooseneck trailers moving cattle.  Or so it seems once or twice a year a load of logs or a lowboy with a crawler or a excavator we can open it up wide.

Because two eights would be easier on the gate posts.  I think I would think about going that route.  A sixteen foot gate even a cheap light weight one hung out there is a heck a strain of the years.  Unless you block up the end to give it something to rest on.   



(https://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt15/rick91351/P9080089.jpg) 
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: MountainDon on January 25, 2012, 10:02:43 AM
My limited experience with gates is that most of them sag a little over time; either the post moves a little or the gate itself sags. What I'm getting at is that the outboard end should have a place to rest its weight on; ours does. And the wider the gate the worse that can get. Just something to keep in mind.
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: rick91351 on January 25, 2012, 10:36:06 AM
Quote from: MountainDon on January 25, 2012, 10:02:43 AM
My limited experience with gates is that most of them sag a little over time; either the post moves a little or the gate itself sags. What I'm getting at is that the outboard end should have a place to rest its weight on; ours does. And the wider the gate the worse that can get. Just something to keep in mind.

You are so correct! Using the two gate system you can easily add a deadman in the middle with a block to hold the weight.  The deadman does not have to be fastened or dug in to the ground.  The best ones I have seen is a disk off a farming implement, or a disk plow.  (What ever you call them where ever you are from.)  The disk acts as a foot.  Cut a piece of 4" pipe to height, weld that to the disk, weld a piece of flat iron to the top.  Both gates can rest on this.  Then if you have to open both gates, you can move it out of the way.  Or just a wooden block works just as good.  Using one gate we always just nailed a board to the post opposite the hinge side and let the end sit on it.  However remember if you are going to swing the gate open and leave it for long extended times like the summer or a month or may be a week.  It does not hurt to supply a little support there as well when it is opened.         
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: MikeOnBike on January 25, 2012, 03:34:42 PM
Agree with Rick and Don.  We used two 8' paired gates for our place and will install another this spring.  Ours stay closed most of the time, unfortunately.  I have thought about, but not put deadman on the todo list.

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-s0XG3JESEhM/TANSK7HTuqI/AAAAAAAAEMs/LHgjQ4FsGqw/s800/SDC10109_s.JPG)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-qJAgoVHocxo/TBRs6ZwFCKI/AAAAAAAAEMs/4klYvVK8Cow/s800/SAM_0010_s.JPG)
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: MountainDon on January 25, 2012, 04:48:44 PM
I like the idea of a doubled set; maybe a pair of 8's or a ten and a six, the six being only used if necessary.
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: altaoaks on January 27, 2012, 01:28:28 AM
Much thanks to all, I bow to your experience. 

Many years ago when I lived up in Three Rivers, CA. we had a 12' aluminum farm gate over a cattle guard.  It worked fine, but it was really light weight.  the 12' and 16' tube gate I was looking at was much heavier and stronger.  So I bet that would be alot more drag on the posts!  I really hadn't thought about that.

I didn't see other sizes in stock, but they could probably get them.  That 10' with a 6' that only opens as needed sounds like a really workable idea.  I like that I would still only have 1 gate to deal with on a day to day basis.

my surveyer says that the lower corner between us and the cabin was never set.  Not what I wanted to hear, but I cant cry over spilled milk!  Just pick myself up and go forward!  So I was given 2 choices:  first, he could determine the corner and stake every 50' along the boundry so i'd know exactly where to put the fence.  Second, he could survey, set the marker, map and file it, and also stake every 50' to guide our fence for $1800.

I took optiopn #2!  These people called me today and are insisting the canyon is their property.  the canyon runs all the way between that entire mountain side, so does that mean they think they own the canyon no matter whose property it goes through?  Yeah, wrong.  The surveyer says the canyon where i caught them cutting is well onto my property.  That survey and marker, and the fence cannot come too soon!

So the surveyer also says to me today, "so you know they're growing dope over there don't you?"  I told him that i had seen it this past September.  Then he tells me he pulled an aireal map from April and it shows their pot garden very clearly, and would i like a copy?  YES.  I need leverage! 

Wouldn't you think that someone growing an illegal cash crop would not encroach on their neighbor's property and cut their timber and add insult to injury, leave all the slash, not to mention piss them off with a dump truck plus of stuff lining the easement and stacked right up to their neighbors property line?  Would not such a person think its better to stay on the good side of his neighbors?  Hmmmmm!
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: Sassy on January 27, 2012, 01:56:12 AM
Sounds pretty frustrating, altaoaks!  But they probably are too stupid to understand the subtleties you speak of  d*
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: nysono on January 27, 2012, 05:56:53 AM
this could get interesting.....I agree with the $1800 full survey and filing
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: rick91351 on January 27, 2012, 11:22:54 AM
Quote from: altaoaks on January 27, 2012, 01:28:28 AM
Much thanks to all, I bow to your experience. 

Many years ago when I lived up in Three Rivers, CA. we had a 12' aluminum farm gate over a cattle guard.  It worked fine, but it was really light weight.  the 12' and 16' tube gate I was looking at was much heavier and stronger.  So I bet that would be alot more drag on the posts!  I really hadn't thought about that.


Sounds like what was marketed as Life Times Gate.  They were hardly life time.   ;)

Here is a couple broken ones I use for panels to keep the live stock away from the drip irrigation equipment for the berries that surround the orchard.

(https://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt15/rick91351/Orchard/PA200684.jpg)

Quote from: altaoaks on January 27, 2012, 01:28:28 AM

I took optiopn #2!  These people called me today and are insisting the canyon is their property.  the canyon runs all the way between that entire mountain side, so does that mean they think they own the canyon no matter whose property it goes through?  Yeah, wrong.  The surveyer says the canyon where i caught them cutting is well onto my property.  That survey and marker, and the fence cannot come too soon!


However be well aware that they can move a lath line or destroy it and pull out pins.  Best to be ready to rock and roll when the survey is completed.  Do not think this will end hard feelings.  But I agree with you have to do what you have to do.  My and one neighbor just do not get a long.  Never will I guess.   :o   

   
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: Redoverfarm on January 27, 2012, 12:00:08 PM
Normally it is not the gates that sag it is the mounting post.  Most of the gate post are part of a brace post system at the end of a fence run.  Stand alone gates do not have that brace system and need to be beefed up some.  Larger diameter post generally well set will last a long time.  You might also look into a all thread type gate bolt verses the lag type.  You can adjust them more accurately and securely.  You could also use a metal 5-6" diameter metal pipe for the mounting post.  If you use the all-thread type bolts you can drill the post to install.  Just remember to hang your gates 8-10" off the ground. 

In my situation I did not have a straight run as my driveway exited a Forrest Service Road.  It is probably overkill but I installed two 12' gates which can be independently opened or both at one time. For the most part I just open one side and alternate every so often.  It sure comes in handy turning larger machines or tandem equipment off the road into the driveway .

(https://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd161/redoverfarm/scenes/country%20plans/100_4176-1.jpg)



Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: altaoaks on January 28, 2012, 10:24:54 PM
Hi Sassy, thank you for the understanding words, and I am certain you are very much right on the money with that insight!

Redoverfarm, that looks like the gate i'm looking at, it looks great on your property, and long lasting!

Rick92351, Yep, thats the gate I used to have, and i'm sure I do not want again.  Looks pretty good as a livestock barrier though!  I'm pretty sure the fence won't stop the hard feelings, just give us good seperation!  If they move the new marker I will make a sheriff's report, and proceed however necessary.  They already have hard feelings since they were trying to buy the land at the time we purchased it, but they didn't have the 20% down payment, ummm, and no job!

Thanks Nysono, I need the moral support!

Mikeonbike, thats a nice setup you have there also, Great gate!

Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: altaoaks on January 28, 2012, 10:44:21 PM
I went up to the property yesterday afternoon and met the surveyer, signed the contract and gave him a deposit.  Hurrah!  He will be done either monday or tuesday, and have it filed as well.

He is an awsome guy, I was lucky to find him.  He is every calm and patient, and he needed that on Friday.  He arrived at my property about 2 hours ahead of me to start some of the prelimenary measuring.  He called me as I was stuck on I-80 in Davis behind a rollover accident that had colsed all lanes, he chuckled quietly as he told me my "neighbors had come over to "help" him, they were very busy with their tape measures, and they had already succeeded in locating the property line without him!" He said he was also fairly certain within a few inches either way, and it not where they are hoping.

The neighbor's girlfriend says they have been in construction since 1985, so I guess that means her boyfriend is able to wear the "surveyers hat" as well.  So far as I can see, he is a jack of all trades, a master of none, and knows EVERYTHING better than anyone else.  Amazing.

Here I was up there with my camera in my hand, and all I could think about was taking a couple more shots of the stuff lining my property line at the easement in.  I planned to take a few nice shots for photobucket.  I will be up there on monday afternoon, and I will take them for sure.
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: MountainDon on January 29, 2012, 12:08:42 AM
If you think the neighbors might play "move the marker", you should take a few bearings on it from several different angles/positions so it could be easily located. The USFS does that and has markers on the trees they use. (They used to use metal plates/signs but now carve the data into the tree base. )  In your case it might be best to ID the trees pictorially, else the folks next door cut down the bearing trees.
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: rick91351 on January 29, 2012, 01:17:19 AM
Witness rocks and trees work good.  In the event there are no good places to get bearings from.  Measure over three feet or so from the pin.  Drive a couple one foot pieces of rebar flush with the ground where ever he pins it at.  Do the lest about to disturb the area.  I have a feeling that you will not need to do anything.  They will be more or less compliant with the survey.  Especially if they have a pot growing operation going on.  Doubt they want to have the Sheriff and the DEA poking around.  Bad timing election year and all.  Someone will undoubtedly declare war on drugs again.       
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: Tickhill on January 29, 2012, 04:33:59 AM
Cut 2'-3' pieces of rebar and drive them beside each surveyor pin/marker 3-4 inches below the surface. Take pictures of each corner with gps coordinates visible. If neighbors move pins, you can find them with a metal detector. Well placed trail cams could monitor encroachments.
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: Tickhill on January 29, 2012, 04:39:12 AM
Sorry Rick, I didn't read your post all the way. I have had good luck with the rebar method. I know a man who concretes old camshafts for corner markers, pretty obvious if they get moved. Neighbor problems are a pain.
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: altaoaks on January 29, 2012, 12:45:06 PM
WOW!  I really hadn't given much than a passing thought to the possibility to them moving the marker.  Thank all of you for the input there.  I will absolutely take some precautions now, and I agree with the suggestion of not doing anything obvious so that they dont know precautions were taken.  and I WILL take and print up photos of all of the markers to assure they aren't messed with.

Two of my corners have metal plates on trees placed long back by the Pacific Gas $ Electric Co. due to their transmission lines running along the outside peremiter.  Those signs also warn that cutting down or altering the tree or plates is against the law and will be prosecuted.  Call me naive, but I would never mess with something that  is a legally recorded boundry, kinda dumb of me to think others would play by the rules!

I am very glad these suggestions were given, I would not have thought of photographing, or staking and protecting that new marker, and really wouldn't have given any thought to protecting the other 3 markers and bearing trees.  That will all be documented and archived now.  They are beyond a doubt not going to be happy, and for us to fence they will have a lot of stuff to move out of my path.  He is an extreemly lazy person, he leaves everything where he puts it for prosperity!  His beer cans and bottles are becoming antiques as we speak. 

You know, I hate to be shoved into becoming a snitch, I don't think very highly of the big brother rules and regs on ones own private property either, although he does have scarry folks around during growing season.  I would need to be pushed pretty hard, but it occurs to me that if I had to do that, it should be a call to the IRS instead.  By the way, the surveyer did bring me a copy of his airel photo, that plantation is much larger than I thought, and so obvious!  It also runs right along that federal land.

Many, many thanks to all again!  An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure!
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: MountainDon on January 29, 2012, 03:41:00 PM
Quote from: altaoaks on January 29, 2012, 12:45:06 PM
Those signs also warn that cutting down or altering the tree or plates is against the law and will be prosecuted. 

We had the legal pleasure of cutting down two bearing trees this past fall. The USFS had gone through and redid all the bearing trees in our section of the Santa Fe NF. We asked the crew if we could dispose of the old ones since they were making new ones.  Two bearing trees near us we dead and had been for a while. I saved a section of trunk with the sign attached for posterity. We'll put it on display with other artifacts we've collected from our land. Old wood stove parts and other unidentified old iron and steel items mainly.
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: flyingvan on January 29, 2012, 04:16:33 PM
Do the plumbing and electrical yourselves too----neither are difficult, especially if you plan your plumbing and cut the pipes into the framing while you frame.  Just get one of the plumbing code flip charts and follow the sizing, and where different branches need to be.  Pick up the latest copy of the electrical code---NEC.  You don't have to memorize it, just look up what you need as you go
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: altaoaks on January 29, 2012, 08:22:21 PM
Hey Mountain Don, how cool is that, the trunk sections with the bearing markers is a great conversation piece, and for sure a part of your land's history.  A couple of dead trees gone must feel nice!  I think its neat you are artifacting finds from your property, out in that area you could find about anything.  Some years back, my dad split a 20 acre parcel into 5 acres and sold 3, kept one in Mimbres.  They found a good amount of pottery shards, and one piece that was nearly intact.  NM has such a rich cultural history.

Flyingvan, i'm confused, you must have been thinking of another post.  I wish we were to the plumbing/electrical!
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: MountainDon on January 29, 2012, 09:13:47 PM
Quote from: altaoaks on January 29, 2012, 08:22:21 PM
Hey Mountain Don, how cool is that, the trunk sections with the bearing markers is a great

Flyingvan, i'm confused,........

You are not the only one altaoaks.  Scratched my head over that one too.  ???
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: Squirl on January 30, 2012, 09:40:48 AM
Calling the authorities can be very profitable.

http://www.irs.gov/compliance/article/0,,id=180171,00.html

I believe in most states moving any property marker, unless the person is a licensed surveyor,  is considered illegal.  They usually have specific statutes dealing with that.  In addition it can sometimes be prosecuted under theft or fraud statutes.
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: rick91351 on January 30, 2012, 11:56:27 AM
Who me?  Move what marker?  You know I am not the only one to have problems with this guy..............  Bet he dug'en up himself and tossed them to get me in trouble.  He is all bitter with where the corner was set.   

The ones that you never want to move.  Even think of moving are the survey monuments set by the Federal Geological Survey. 
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: altaoaks on January 30, 2012, 03:07:54 PM
Thanks for the link Squirl, although I am still hopeful that they will fade into the background and at the very least, they go their way and I will go my and never our paths shall cross again...Probably FAT CHANCE!  but I can hope.  But now if they can't work with the property lines and be respectful of our rights, then you assisted me with the links!

rick 91351, Thanks for that, I would personally be concerned about moving any survey markers, you'd think if its caught that it would be prosecutable...but then, if no one sees it done, how does one know who to prosecute?  Although I would know who did it, how can that be proven?  That is a concerning thought.
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: Squirl on January 30, 2012, 03:22:09 PM
Altaoaks you brought up an interesting topic.  The mention of a growing a cash crop got me thinking about the current policies.

The following is for discussion purposes only and is not intended to be legal advice or legal descriptions of a specific circumstance.
The current administration has suspended its prosecution of some marijuana cases.  The laws have never been repealed by congress.  The statute of limitations on most offenses is 2-5 years.  Even if the current administration isn't prosecuting for certain acts in the past 5 years, the next administration can prosecute and seize all property for current actions.  If I were in the position of a landlord in that scenario, I would be paranoid.  Combine that with the fact that forfeiture can be criminal or civil and the forfeiture actions are In Rem (against the property, not person) and civil forfeiture only requires a preponderance of the evidence, you think a landlord would take seriously any matter of their property being used for illegal activity.  The feds really like this form because they don't have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt or knowledge.  It is a large source of funding for many agencies.  I would think if a landlord got a letter, say from a complaining neighbor, disclosing this fact and the U.S. Attorney, DEA, or FBI was CCed on such letter it would prompt fast action.  The landlord would have little defense of not having knowledge of the activities at that point. 

Also, in most states, almost no eviction defense can stand up to illegal activity.  This is also usually decided by a preponderance of the evidence (more likely than not).  A few photos are usually strong evidence.


Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: Bob S. on January 30, 2012, 05:03:18 PM
Would it be possible to have a third party rat on them?
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: altaoaks on January 31, 2012, 01:00:17 AM
Hi Squirl, yes, I aggree with all of that, and my mind was going that direction, the county sheriff would probably not help much as, like i am being told, every 3rd person in the mountains is growing it, and the grow cards allow usually 20 plants per person with a card.  So i had already figured if i was going to need to exert my leverage, it would be with either the DEA or the IRS. 

I guess since property is under siege and underwater, the local jurisdictions aren't even confiscating real property anymore.  Seems they don't want to get saddled down with it.

Bob, unfortunately I have already contacted the landlord who was not interested.  so if they get turned in, they will know beyond a doubt that it was coming through me.  ok if they are gone, not ok if the come back.  there are only 2 neighbors, me and the couple above me who have known for years he was growning, and they didnt find it a problem.  not so sure i would want them or their famiy members after me.

The good news is the surveyer called me around 2pm, the marker is in and he was on his way home to map the boundry and get the paperwork ready to file.  He said the property line was even farther oveer in their direction than I had thought.  they have a shed on skids, and my land goes within 1' of it.

So he said they were busy moving their junk out of  my way as he left, including loading all of the scaffoling, galvanized pipe, wheelbarrows, shovels, old wire, etc. from the entrance to my property along the easement road. 

well, i jumped in the car and ran right up.  its about a 2 hour ride and i needed the light.  I was soooo amazed to see that they had cleaned up the easement road in, I wasn't expecting to acomplish that so it was a pleasent suprise.

along the border between us is also so much of his piles of stuff.  he moved an old pick-um-up truck that he doesnt use, and some rotted wood, and he saw me walking up so he came and spoke.

you know, you would never know we had a problem!  he just started a pleasant conversation about my dog, his dogs, heartworm, briefly touched on the survey, and said, "yep, that corner is just where I thought it was!"  Well if its right where he thought it was, does that mean he was intentially trying to steal a 30 + foot strip of my property?  and thats about what it was, over 30'.

later as i walked and took more pictures, (as you guys suggested) his girlfriend came outside to find the dogs, and she spoke in nice conversation about the dogs, growing tomatoes, the fox and bear problems,  and I thought, wow, just a couple days ago she was ranting and raving that her man has been in construction since 1985 and they own that land i was worried about the wood cutting on.   hmmmm, well, i guess she doesnt feel the same today as she did the other day!

I had to do some real hiking to find the new marker.  It was well past where i thought my land ended, and when i finally found it, i looked up and was looking right into the terraced area where they will be planting this years crop soon.   Had they not started all of this business, i would have tried to fence at least 10' over along the upper area, and propable 20' over at the lower area, and not in my favor, but in their favor!  I was really shocked.

and i'm stopping to take photos, then my camera wont cooperate, says i have low batteries!  but i did get some good photos and i popped some metal rods into the ground around the marker in case something hinky happens.  i'll go to photobucket this weekend and get them uploaded, i hope!  that survey was worth its weight in gold, maybe i wont need to see a real estate attorney about the easement now.  seems like i should just be very happy!  dog was very happy, they let their dogs come play with him (once they felt he wasnt dangerous), hes 105 lbs. but a social butterfly.
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: rick91351 on January 31, 2012, 09:42:35 AM
My gut feeling is all the posturing is pretty well done.  I really doubt you will have any trouble. 

As you might assume longevity in places like that.  Tis normal to sort of take over things that are not being used whether it be right or wrong.  Very well might turn into a good neighbor. 
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: altaoaks on January 31, 2012, 12:48:37 PM
Thank you for that Rick, I am sure hoping your right!  Keep your friends close, and keep your enemies closer!  He does have a Bobcat!  I've been looking at all the angles as to why butter would melt in their mouths yesterday, I'm sure they have an angle but I don't know it!  But at least its a place where we can build forward.
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: flyingvan on February 14, 2012, 10:00:56 PM
Hi again---your original post said you were going to do it all except the plumbing and electrical---I was encouraging you to do that yourselves, too!
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: altaoaks on February 07, 2013, 11:40:59 PM
Hi everybody, sorry for the disappearing act.  We have been pretty occupied, my son was diagnosed with stage 4 colon cancer, so we have been in the fight of our lives.  Things are looking up though.  He's still getting chemo, but we are feeling like we will be successful.

So I am going to put the pump on my well in May, as soon as weather permits!  Advise please!!!

The well is 165' deep.  static water level is 40' (i don't have a clue what static water level means, but!)  it produces 60 GPM (that i do understand!)  Its a 6"casing.  How deep should the pump go?  Is 100' sufficient?  also, any suggestions on which brand pump to go with?  I think I know I want a stainless steel pump, but thats just from my feeble attempt at research.

I am doing a solar pumping system, I do intend to have a holding tank, and i want enough water to cover a future home, a garden, and sprinklers in case of forest fire.  (I, again, dont have a clue how much water that would be!)

I would greatly appreciate any advice you guys can give me.  Thanks in advance.  Jacque

 
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: Redoverfarm on February 08, 2013, 07:03:52 AM
Quote from: altaoaks on February 07, 2013, 11:40:59 PM
Hi everybody, sorry for the disappearing act.  We have been pretty occupied, my son was diagnosed with stage 4 colon cancer, so we have been in the fight of our lives.  Things are looking up though.  He's still getting chemo, but we are feeling like we will be successful.

So I am going to put the pump on my well in May, as soon as weather permits!  Advise please!!!

The well is 165' deep.  static water level is 40' (i don't have a clue what static water level means, but!)  it produces 60 GPM (that i do understand!)  Its a 6"casing.  How deep should the pump go?  Is 100' sufficient?  also, any suggestions on which brand pump to go with?  I think I know I want a stainless steel pump, but thats just from my feeble attempt at research.

I am doing a solar pumping system, I do intend to have a holding tank, and i want enough water to cover a future home, a garden, and sprinklers in case of forest fire.  (I, again, dont have a clue how much water that would be!)

I would greatly appreciate any advice you guys can give me.  Thanks in advance.  Jacque



Sorry to here of your sons problems.  Our own can be handled but when it involves are children that is different. Glad things are looking promising.

In regards to your well the static level is the level that the water is resting at.  The deeper you can go with your pump the better.  I don't know the exact formula but it roughly the water in the standing pipe has about 1.469 gal per foot.  I would set the pump at a depth of 155' which is 10' off the bottom of the hole.  That will give you more water storage.  The reason for elevating it is so the pump will not pick up sediment at the bottom which could damage the pump.

The kind and model of the pump will be dependent on the power you have available, distance of supply line, depth of pump and static level.  Being that it is solar it would have to be sized to match that.  There are several on this site more knowledgeable in that regard but here is a company that may be able to size or recommend.   http://www.backwoodssolar.com/

Dependent on how you set it up with all the factors involved the storage tank can be controlled by a float switch but you will probably need a pressure tank which has to be factored into your planning.
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: rick91351 on February 08, 2013, 08:37:32 AM
Sorry to read about your son's condition.   Glad to read things are looking up. 

Great news on the well!  I would also do about as suggested.  Your static level could drop with all the drought and as more wells are drilled.  Having all that water below the pump serves no purpose at 100 ft.  At 160 ft or so lots and lots of water for the pump to pump.
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: hpinson on February 08, 2013, 11:00:33 AM
One thing I did prior to installing the pump was to measure my static water level for a year . It was a dry year so I was able to observe about a ten foot fluctuation between early spring and late fall.

60 gallons per minute with a six inch casing is an amazing well.   I think it very unlikely such a well would go dry anytime soon, or that you would overpump unless you had a super (expensive) high capacity pump, but to be safe you could place the pump as deep as you can, ten feet from the bottom of the well if possible.  The downside is the deeper you go, the more energy you expend doing the work of pumping, and the more copper you need (length / gauge) to provide AC or DC power to the pump.  I would think 100 - 150 feet below low static should be fine though with that sort of flow, unless you have huge water demands.
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: altaoaks on February 08, 2013, 11:39:17 AM
Hey Rick, Hpinson, and Redoverfarm,  Thank you!  My son said I would get my questions answered at my great cabin site! 

Redover, I went to the Backwoodssolar site, I forgot all about them!  I had not visited them, I just wasn't at that point, but with everything that has occured over the last year my brain just tossed all the knowledge I had gathered from you guys for my build.  I guess you can say I sorta "re-tooled" my mind.  The build went to the back instead of the front, and we have been diong things like nutritional support, whole and natural eating, and foods that "feed cancer" as opposed to foods that "starve cancer"  but we are at a point where we can do both now.  That site is a really great resource.  Thank you for reminding me to check there.

hpinson, good advice!  I am hoping, hoping...that we really have an abundance of water.  just behind us and over the other side of our little world is a place called Crystal Springs.  Big trucks make runs all night long hauling water to one of those bottled water companies in Sacramento.  One worry is that they will eventually lower the water levels, and that could affect us.  I feel very blessed at this point not to have water issues.  A piece of land very close to us only got 4GPM, i don't know how deep their well is.  of course, they have the Little Bear River (more of a stream) running across the corner of their land, they could get grey water for the site there also.

Again, you guys, your help and advice is always soooo appreciated!  My little piece of land is finally almost paid off.  I owe a whopping 3 grand, and counting down.  That $1000 land payment is going directly into the pump and a well house first with solar for pumping and minimum usage.  Next I guess is some fencing, an outhouse, and a 10 X 12 "shed" on skids.  By the end of this summer I plan on being to enjoy that land!  I guess then I will need to decide if being a good egg and paying that whopping building permit is on the table, or finding a way of building without permits is an option??  I wouldn't be anywhere without the help of this site.  THANK YOU! Jacque
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: pocono_couple on February 08, 2013, 01:48:30 PM
Just a thought to add..    We put a hand pump on our well in addition to the normal set up   we have  a 6 in casing as well.    We bought the pump from bison pumps in Maine.   It is stainless steel,  and it is a deep well hand pump.   It is nice to know that we have access to water when the electricity cuts out..  Or,  in your case,  when the batteries might be low.    They are not cheap,  but,  in my estimation,  very well worth the expense.   If we ever sell the house..  The pump goes with me!   :)
Jt
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: nysono on February 08, 2013, 06:52:56 PM
I would put the pump closer to the bottom
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: altaoaks on February 08, 2013, 11:30:25 PM
Pocono, if I understand what you are saying, you put on a regular pumping system, but also a secondary hand pump?  I imagine the hand pump is pretty cool looking as well as functional.  But if i'm putting in a holding tank, would that be necessary?  We were hoping to have some water storage for emergencies.  Also, if the hand pump is a positive in our situation, is it something that could be added at a later date?

We are going to have a lot on our plate to accomplish the pump and solar to run it, plus a well house and storage shed, an outhouse, and fencing the perimeter of 2 1/2 acres, and all with cash in hand before the snow hits again.  I'm thinking if we can get that done, we can enjoy the property for some days at a time and figure out the rest of our plans.  I guess i'm looking at must haves first, then adding in the it would be greats.

Nysono, so how close are you saying?  Actually, how close to the bottom would be too close?  At what point would it start picking up sediment?  With a 165' well, would 160' be an acceptable depth to put the pump? 

Thanks to all again, I wish I had more experience in this area.  Sure am glad to get imput from all of you!  Jacque 
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: Bob S. on February 09, 2013, 01:43:32 AM
This thread raised a question in my mind. If the water level is 60' and the pump is at 160' would the pump have to lift the water 160' or just the 60'?

Bob d*
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: pocono_couple on February 09, 2013, 07:54:24 AM
  "....before the snow hits again."       hmm,   if i understand correctly,   you are in an area that gets snow and freezing temps..   a storage tank is a great idea..  how will you keep it from freezing?   it sounds like you have a lot of projects in mind!   

yes the hand pump fits directly on top of the well.    a hole needs to be drilled into the side of the casing for the wires to feed the pump ( normally, they go through the well cap)      i had the hand pump on the well initially..  when the guys came to install the regular pump,   we had to take out the hand pump so that the new pump would fit down the casing..  in the process,  one of them knocked off the pitless adaptor which ended up at the bottom of the well.    we were lucky that he had an appropriate replacement with him.    he then wanted to use the vent on the hand pump to run the wires down the well.    i told him that the vent needed to be open to function properly..  while they were on break, i called bison pumps , and they assured me that we should not use that hole and that  a hole needed to be drilled through the casing.    i relayed that information to the pump guys and they suddenly found a fitting that would work and , somewhat reluctantly, drilled the hole..    all is well now!   ( pun intended  :)  )

i know a fellow in NH who is a dowser,  and i asked him about getting people to drill a well on some property that we had in maine.   he warned me about being 100 feet from the septic system, and he said..  "  when they pull up , they will look for the easiest place to set up the truck..  make sure that you get them to drill where you want the well"   sure enough...  they pulled up and said.. this looks like a good place.. ( right in front of the house  with the septic system about 50 feet away..)    and i said..  do you see that stake in the field out there?  that is where i would like the well to be. 

I am one who would generally defer to the fellow who is in business and who "obviously" knows what he is doing, but i learned that it is good to do a lot of research.. gets lots of opinions..  and then make your expectations very clear when hiring someone to help out with your house..    it sounds like you are in the research phase!    good for you! 

btw   you have plenty of water in your well..   don't go too close to the bottom with the pump..  i am not an expert by any means, but 10 feet sounds as close as i would want to get..   

bob..  the answer to your question is  160 feet...  that is where the pump is... at the end of  a pipe that is  160 feet long..  so the water travels from the pump.. through the entire 160 feet of pipe  and then beyond that to your house which may have some additional elevation...   jt
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: Don_P on February 09, 2013, 09:06:26 AM
At 60 gpm and a 60' static level the original driller had a boat payment if he went to 160'. Glenn is our pro on wells, you might want to pm him if he doesn't see this. I'd go ahead and use the storage depth by setting up 10' or so off the bottom. He have 30 gpm and occasionally have pulled a bit of sediment if irrigating heavily. I assume that is when we draw the static level low enough to drain a fresh gallery and wash out some mud. Our pump is a 220volt Jacuzzi "sand -eater" model and has been doing well. The drillers set up on my first choice and drilled 400' through solid granite, not a single seam in that part of the mountain. I asked them where they thought they might hit water and they chose a point out off the main body of the hill, they hit good water within 100' and then we had to pipe it 350' uphill to the house. All of that rise plus the frictional loss is the head the pump is working against. For firefighting sprinklers I'd be more tempted to put a large capacity electric pump and generator in the wellhouse for emergencies... another not "must have" but I doubt a solar setup will have the flow needed to supply a sprinkler head for long. Depending on lot size, I've had the septic guys come onto a site and begin digging, I asked about well clearance and they pointed to the well on our lot and said they were fine. I then pointed to the neighbors well... ooops!
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: hpinson on February 09, 2013, 09:41:16 AM
Bob S.

Static Head: "Static head is the distance that the water is to be lifted."

The lift to the pump head is from the static head, i.e 60 feet. Water finds that level in your intake pipe.     Also there may be some distance the pump needs to move water above the well head to storage or such, and that needs to be added to the total lift.

For instance I have a well that is 310 feet deep and my static head is -190' and the intake is at ~-300'.  The pump pushes water up (or in my case pulls as I have a simplepump) from the -60 foot level.  I have a water storage tank a few feet above and that height needs to be added, in this case about 10 feet.

The static head may vary with seasonal fluctuations or aquifer drawdown.  As the static head falls your pump has to do more work, and vice versa. That is a big gotcha if the flow of the well is less than the draw of the pump.

Some of the new Grundfos solar pumps can pump an amazing amount of water a minute. Might be worth a look but wow are they expensive!
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: pocono_couple on February 09, 2013, 10:07:24 AM
bob.. looks like your intuition is better than mine!    makes sense that the water inside the pipe will  also reach a static level of  60 feet..    thanks for the clarification hpinson...    and thanks for the point on the solar pumps..   i was wondering how much a pump would draw   and if the solar option would be adequate..  jt
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: pocono_couple on February 09, 2013, 12:09:30 PM
but...   what about the water that starts the journey from  the bottom of the pipe   :)
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: flyingvan on February 10, 2013, 11:16:17 AM
  Static head doesn't start from the bottom of the pipe, but is measured from the water level surrounding the pipe--regardless of how deep that pipe extends into water.   The water around the pipe will be pushing down and creating pressure to that water at the bottom of the pipe, to (roughly) .43 psi per foot. 
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: altaoaks on February 10, 2013, 01:51:52 PM
Ok, so i am still confused obviously.  first, is static head and static level the same thing?  sorry to seem dense, but pumps are way out of my fields of knowledge.

also, i thought i was understanding that static level was how far from the top (or well cap) the resting water level is, did i jump to a conclusion with that?  i guess i still need some schooling please folks!

also, the static water level is 40', not 60'.  i dont know if that makes a difference or not.

pocono_couple, yes i do have snow and freezing temps at the property.  i'm below the worst of it, the land is at 4000'.  in the seirras the serious snow levels are around the 5000' elevation, but we get our fair share.  this year has been extreem.  some years, not so much.  one thing i have learned from all of you folks is to look at the worst and prepare for that.  our dirt road in is also a good 3/4 of a mile from the main road and it gets pretty bad.

i know the other 2 neighbors say its so rough sometimes that its snowmobile only in and out, but only for short periods.  freezing is a factor.  now that ive read the responses maybe i should burry a holding tank as opposed to an above ground tank.  i would loose the gravity feed because i don't have a good area above the home site, but in an emergency i would have water with that.  If i do a gravity feed above ground tank, what would be the choices in preventing it from freezing?

Another point you brought up is the distance from the well to the septic site.  the permited septic is closer than i would like to the well cap.  i haven't measured the actual distince but it has been on my mind.  i remember at my Aunt's ranch in Mc Allister, NM  her well being too close to the septic, and they had to shut down the well years later.  we were all drinking that water for years.  the house and well were done in the 1940's.  since you have voiced something that i have had on my mind, i need to look carefully at that.

i am looking at another area on the property for the homesite, but i will need a new perc test and permit.  at least it would be much further from the well!

also, yes!  i am pushing it, but i've been wanting to get these projects done since buying the property.  the huge payment with a 3 year payoff has kicked my rear, now that i'm rolling up on the end of that i plan on doing as much as i can afford to do, then regroup over the winter.  i am prepared to fall short of my goals, but it won't be for the lack of trying!

Don_P, yes!  that sounds right.  the well was there when i bought the property, so i don't know the reasoning.  but after the fact, i'm not unhappy.  sounds like someone opted to go extra deep!  if i had to pay for it, that would be a different cow to milk!

question:  im starting out off grid.  the pump set-up will be solar.  can that be converted to a grid-tied setup should i choose to do that, or would i need a different pump then?  the system im looking at is solar only.

flyingvan, hpinson, don_p, pocono_couple, bob s, nysono, and all the folks at country plans, my gratitude!



Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: MountainDon on February 10, 2013, 01:58:26 PM
Static Head (http://inspectapedia.com/water/Well_Static_Head.htm)

(http://inspectapedia.com/water/1518s.jpg)
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: altaoaks on February 11, 2013, 12:17:08 PM
Thank you for the diagram Mountain Don, seeing that clarified alot!  That is a great way to educate someone like me who doesnt know much about water pumping, except you turn on the pipe, and you get water!  much appreciated!
Title: Re: getting set to build
Post by: Dry Creeker on September 12, 2014, 01:02:55 PM
Dear Alta Oaks,

I am also in Placer County (Auburn) and have some questions for you. Could you contact me, please?