Basements

[Dustin]

We're getting serious about the basement for our new house. After getting bids for ICF basements and finding out they are just too rich for my blood, we're going with the old standard cast concrete basement with waterproofing and some rigid foam on the outside.
Or lot is dead flat ex-farmland, so no walkout basement. We saw several houses out there that had what looked like a 9' basement that was only 5' underground, and then some creative earth berming and steps were used. I think I like this idea, and from what I understand it's cheaper than a fully underground basement with window wells. The only bad thing I see is 1) we'll have steps to get into the house and  2) are the basement windows are security risk?
Is this a good way to do it, or should I do the fully underground thing with concrete window wells?

What are the standard windows used for basements? Are there "standard" windows for basements?

[jonseyhay]

Have you thought about using concrete block? It's possible you could do the work yourself and save a bit on labour. Concrete block is commonly used in New Zealand and Australia both for foundations and general building. Here are a couple of links for you, one in NZ and the other in the US. I don't know about the US but would imagine it's the same as in NZ, there should be rebated and sill blocks available that would let you build an opening to suit any window or door size you like. Just cut the blocks to the required size.
http://www.spraggsbricklayers.co.nz/resi-block.asp
http://www.solar.org/solar/undergroundwalls

[Dustin]

I had considered doing dry-stack block with surface-bonding cement but I decided that I needed to limit myself to how much work I do or I will never get done.  I have a big enough house to build without building the basement too!
Are concrete blocks cheaper than doing poured formed concrete if I have someone else do it? Are there any downsides?
More importantly, which is better, fully underground basement, or "daylight" basement?
Any experiences with either? Having lived in Southern CA for most of my life, I had never even been in a house with a basement till I visited relatives in Utah.

[Daddymem]

Check into what the geodesic guys do for basements.  I think I remember something called blue blocks or similar.  DIY stuff.  Or try pressure treated basement.  The higher your first floor is, the less surface water flooding will be an issue.  The higher the basement floor is, the less high groundwater flooding will be an issue. 5 feet?  Seems a bit high, but the take a look at the old farmhouses...2, 3, 4 feet high.  Look at that yellow FD house on the website.  That what you are looking for?  Think they do that a lot in Nova Scotia if I remember from the last time I went home over a decade ago.  O'm sure John R., Glenn, or PEG will chime in with some great advice.

[Keyhole(Guest)]

Check if water table isn't real high at build site, if you go deeper.  Get local info on frost line depth.  John shows how much of the side walls can be buried.  Do your drainage work up for the site.  Sounds like sump pump and some type dry well.  

Going deeper has benefits and so does being more above ground.

 8-) [smiley=cool.gif]

[Keyhole(Guest)]

Basement bedrooms need egress size and placement to be up to code and for fire safety.  People that sell windows will give specs

[Doug_Martin]

Or lot is dead flat ex-farmland, so no walkout basement. We saw several houses out there that had what looked like a 9' basement that was only 5' underground, and then some creative earth berming and steps were used.

That is pretty common (minus the earth berm) for older houses here in the frozen Northeast.  Our house (circa 1890) sits over a partial 6' high cellar that is 4' in the ground.  I'd imagine coming from SoCal, the land of slab on grade, that a house "in the air" does look weird.

I'd go for it -- with 4' out of the ground you can have basement bedrooms as a previous poster mentioned.  If I were you (and can afford it) I'd add a couple more feet and have a 10' basement.  It makes finishing it out much easier as you don't have to build soffets for all the piping under the first floor.

[jraabe]

For longevity, the well-built concrete basement with 3' or so of foundation exposed is a time proven strategy. It keeps moisture and splash off the wood parts of the house and allows enough light and ventilation in the basement that usable living space can usually be worked out (now or in the future).

It does require either berming or a march up to the door. Thus the big porches that offered a transition place between the inside and outside.

If the basement will be used as living space (insulated, wired & plumbed) you might want to look into PWF options in your area (the is the PT wood foundation). If you do standard concrete (block or pour) do a good job on the waterproofing and drainage. Backfill the wall and put in drain tile and a sump if there is any question of high water. This is always done with PT basements and should be standard practice with all below grade foundations.

[Dustin]

I am definitely putting bedrooms down in the basement, just not immediately. My wife is already planning a master bath expansion into the boy's room for when they become surly teens and we banish them to the basement.
6' underground and 3' above ground might be better from a transition point too. Not as "high in the sky".

Good thing I'm planning porches along the front door wall and the back door wall. I think they're very welcoming, a nice place to hang out during the day, and keep the rain and snow off ya when you're coming in.
Luckily, the water table is not high, being in the arid mountain high-desert transitional area I'm building. I may be wrong, but I don't think folks use sump pumps out there, just dry wells away from the house.

I would really like to do ICF or something similar, but all the costs for just the materials were sky-high.  I am still collecting bids, though. PWF foundations are interesting but, isn't PT wood poisonous? Wouldn't it slowly leach harmful chemicals into the groundwater, the same groundwater I'm pumping up to drink from the well?


I'm also thinking about what I can use inexpensively to cover up the not-so-attractive concrete.  I could do stucco, but I'm trying to get away from stucco-land. (being from AZ and CA)  I might use those cast concrete rock-alike products, if the cost is not too bad. I did see one system that came in big panels that sort of stacked and locked on top of eachother- not as good looking or realistic as the mortared in place "stone", but nice from a distance. Cheaper too.  
Maybe some good earth-toned paint and "rock" in strategic areas, like the corners?

[benevolance]

Daddymem,

Are you from Nova Scotia as well? I grew up in the country...Between Sackville and Truro...Little place called Beaverbank

We like to think that it is a little piece of heaven (O;

I am down here into the deep south because of my wife... But man I miss the cooler climate. Going home to work on a cottage on some land I bought on a lake in the late spring...I am taking the tent and spending a couple weeks on the property like a hermit... just clearing land and  gettting it ready to build on in the fall

Pics and details to come....Oh the hours I have been planning about how to build on the lake without permits

[Daddymem]

Daddymem,

Are you from Nova Scotia as well? I grew up in the country...Between Sackville and Truro...Little place called Beaverbank

We like to think that it is a little piece of heaven (O;

I am down here into the deep south because of my wife... But man I miss the cooler climate. Going home to work on a cottage on some land I bought on a lake in the late spring...I am taking the tent and spending a couple weeks on the property like a hermit... just clearing land and  gettting it ready to build on in the fall

Pics and details to come....Oh the hours I have been planning about how to build on the lake without permits

My family is originally from Nova Scotia.  My great grandma grew up on Ross Farm...the actual farm not the museum.  My cousin was the city engineer who quarterbacked the rehab of the Halifax docks area.  I haven't been since I was little but from what I do remember of the huge family gathering...it was home to us (guess feeding us the cheez whiz, molasses, and hodge podge had some influence    oh and fort cheese too).  I have always dreamed of moving, the problem is my Civil Engineering degree isn't worth as much up there due to differences in education...maybe someday...

[benevolance]

Well your degree does not have to be worth as much as land values are  likely 1/10th in rural Nova scotia what they are in Rural new England.

Funny that your relatives settled the Ross Farm...My last name just so happens to be  Ross

Still can get good homemade Molases and Cheese in Most small farming communities too!

-Peter Ross

[DemianJ]

My basement is being poured tomorrow and I've got foundations on the brain, so here's some possibly helpful thoughts I've been mulling over:

I'm not sure if they are in your area, but precast Superior Walls are worth considering if you're planning on using the basement as living space.  

//www.superiorwalls.com

When doing the comparison don't forget to factor in the cost (and labor) of rebar, insulation, waterproofing, possible weather delays/curing problems, and whatever means of attaching sheetrock to the concrete walls.  

As for waterproofing, I've read really good things about dimple sheeting in Taunton's Foundations and Concrete Work and plan on using it for my 20x24, 8' poured basement.  It water proofs, provides a spaced drainage plane away from the wall to channel water to the footings drains, and supposedly can be installed by one person in about an hour.  It's also inexpensive ($205 for a 8'x65 roll and $60 for the hardware).  

Here's one source for the Platon brand of sheeting.

http://www.armtec.com/products_foundation.html
http://www.armtec.com/products_platon_wheretobuy.html

And another for the Delta-MS brand (supposedly almost exactly the same):

http://www.cosella-dorken.com/

Demian

[Dustin]

I looked into Superior Walls, but even though they have a "dealer" in AZ where I live now, they have nobody in Utah where I'm building. I keep checking, but no luck so far. Looked like something interesting.
It looks like Superior Walls is an east coast thing that is slowing spreading my way, but not in time for me.

[keyhole(Guest)]

DemianJ:
Thanks for the info. on the dimple membrane.  This sounds really good.  Anyone else have any experience with it?
Keyhole

[Daddymem]

I looked into Superior Walls, but even though they have a "dealer" in AZ where I live now, they have nobody in Utah where I'm building. I keep checking, but no luck so far. Looked like something interesting.
It looks like Superior Walls is an east coast thing that is slowing spreading my way, but not in time for me.

Not worth your time investigating if you ask me...especially on that fine FirstDay you plan on building.

[speedfunk]

I was in the same exact boat you are in now.....We were trying to decide weather or not to do a poured basement.  30 x 16 We looked into rentals of the form etc.... also thought about contracting out.  However I made my descion to do the dry stack.   1  is that b/c of how muddy our job site was getting a concrete truck in would have been a mess.  We poured the footers with a truck and my buddy had to pull it out.  Thing i learned HAVE GOOD ACCESS TO BUILDING SITE!  I also wanted to learn the technique b/c i would like to build an entire house out of block.    It's labor intensive however you don't need skilled labor to do it.  Another thing is that we did it in winter.... If i needed to do it again in winter ( which I would avoid)  I would porb. just payed to have someone do it.   It does add on to the project time consdierable.   Oh and you will need a cement mixer..... we were mixing the parging by hand..which was no big deal b/c you didn't go trough it THAT fast.  However we poured the cores with redi-mix then we got one ..and boy did it go quicker.  


here's a link you can see the blocks that we havn't complelty finished.  We are also putting bedrooms down in the basement.  We studded out the wall so adding windows and doors would be quicker..
http://employees.oneonta.edu/kilpatda/spechouse.html

[harry51]

I'm going to use dry stack for an earth-sheltered wall on my daylight basement. It seems to be the best approach in our moderate climate, where the insulation offered by IFC's is not really needed, or even necessarily desirable, if the constant earth temperature is to help cool the space during our hot summers in Central Calif.  I haven't heard back from the engineer yet, but I sent him all the info from Azar Block, http://www.azarblock.com/ ,which are locally available, and it appears to me that such a wall should be adequate to properly support our upper story. I see dry-stack as having many of the advantages of ICF's relating to speed, simplicity, etc., without the drawback of having to apply a finish wall treatment inside, which will be garage/utility space in my case. I have been told ICF's are sometimes a bit tricky to use, and each brand has its quirks, so I think the dry-stack will be more straightforward, no problem with blowouts, less lateral bracing required, etc.

Another way that might be good in a colder climate where insulation is needed is
Rastra forms.  http://rastra.net/rastracom/web-site/wi_ra.htm They insulate, but come in bigger sections, yet are light enough to be handled easily (they say!), and may not require as much bracing or be as subject to blowouts as ICF's.  I'm not badmouthing ICF's, I corresponded with an inexperienced guy who used them to build his basement in Alaska, did the work himself with one helper, and it went very well. He was very happy with them for his application, but there are alternatives that may be more appropriate in other locations/situations.

I looked at Superior walls as well. Called them up and learned they don't service California because of the siesmic requirements. Don't know if they really aren't adequate, or if the company just doesn't want to spend the money to prove they are to the bureaucrats!

[glenn kangiser]

I'm doing a large basement for a customer probably in the summer.  I'd appreciate any updates -pricing etc on these materials, Harry.

[DemianJ]

Here's some pics of the Platon dimple sheeting installed.





I was fairly easy to install (a little over 1.5 hrs with two people).  It would have gone up in less than an hour if I had a nail gun that shoots concrete nails.  I put a layer of asphalt behind the sheet as an extra layer of protection.

[glenn kangiser]

Thanks for taking the time to post that, DemianJ.  Something similar coming up for me later on a job.  I have seen similar materials on my large commercial jobs althoough I was just on the steel work.

[Dustin]

That dimple sheeting waterproofing sure looks like it would be a lot easier than the messy sticky job of tarring the walls. I think I may do that!
Can you/should you put it over 1 or 2 inch foam insulation sheeting?

[DemianJ]

It is a lot more pleasant than asphalt (and works a lot better, lasts longer, etc), but it would be really difficult to do alone (the roll is long and heavy and you need someone to hold it tight around corners).  I called around and found someone in VA who sold a 6'-9" x 65' roll for $130 (as compared with a company that quoted me nearly $500 for the same roll).  They said it was being used a lot in commercial construction, but hadn't cracked the residential market much yet.

It might work installed between the concrete and the foam.  However, I think that using the foam in between the concrete and sheeting would space the sheeting too far away from the wall.  Also, if you've got any walls that need angled coverage make sure you get some of the molding (mine's installed straight across for now b/c I didn't, but I'll need to add molding later or cover the exposed sheeting somehow when the final backfilling is done).

http://www.armtec.com/catalogue/Foundation%20Protection/Platon%20Foundation%20Brochure%20FINAL.pdf

Because I neglected to request a vapor barrier for my slab floor, I'm also considering a similar dimpled flooring product they make for the floor (it goes b/w the concrete slab and the wood subfloor).

http://www.armtec.com/products_building.html#flooring

Demian

[Dustin]

I saw you could use it as a vapor barrier under the slab, too. I think I might do that as well.
I didn't see any examples of it being used with insulation, but I did see it being used with ICF's.
I saw that the Polysteel ICF guys sell it., and it's orderable thru Home Depot.