out of square ...........

astidham · February 16, 2014, 08:59:03 PM

I messed up.
I framed up the walls on my build, and didnt check it for square untill I finished decking the 2nd floor

Im not sure what I was thinking, but im out of square.
Diagonal measurement should be 36' 3" 5/32
One diagonal is 36' 4"
The other is 36' 2"
The deck is level.
working on my build so intermittently because of nasty weather has led me to go 100 miles an hour and make a pretty bad mistake..
Upstairs framing hasnt started yet, any thoughts?

flyingvan · February 16, 2014, 10:15:31 PM

That would make your 90 degree corners 89.813826 on the acute side.... I figure you are 99.79314% accurate. I'm no building engineer but seems to me that's close enough. I doubt an inspector will notice, and I doubt the walls below will be noticably out of plumb. You probably already know your options---
1) Tear up the decking, square things up, re-apply the decking
2) Live with it

I'd opt for #2. I think you'd weaken everything more by tearing up the decking than any strength you'd gain.

February 16, 2014, 10:18:17 PM

Quote from: flyingvan on February 16, 2014, 10:15:31 PM
That would make your 90 degree corners 89.813826 on the acute side.... I figure you are 99.79314% accurate. I'm no building engineer but seems to me that's close enough. I doubt an inspector will notice, and I doubt the walls below will be noticably out of plumb. You probably already know your options---
1) Tear up the decking, square things up, re-apply the decking
2) Live with it

I'd opt for #2. I think you'd weaken everything more by tearing up the decking than any strength you'd gain.

Thanks flyingvan.
Option 2 does sound better than 1

Don_P · February 16, 2014, 10:42:43 PM

You are half the difference, or 1" out of square. I agree with flyingvan, if it isn't obvious learn to look the other way. I blew it on one of our bedroom exterior walls by 5/8", not sure what I was thinking, doing the same thing fighting the weather and working on it on weekends. I'm the only one that knows, or was

.

astidham · February 16, 2014, 10:54:23 PM

Quote from: Don_P on February 16, 2014, 10:42:43 PM
You are half the difference, or 1" out of square. I agree with flyingvan, if it isn't obvious learn to look the other way. I blew it on one of our bedroom exterior walls by 5/8", not sure what I was thinking, doing the same thing fighting the weather and working on it on weekends. I'm the only one that knows, or was .

Thanks Don.
When I searched past post on the forum, I didnt find any post of this ever happening.
I thought I was the only one.

February 17, 2014, 12:52:22 AM

Umm, no...But you can't let the 'perfect' be the enemy of the 'finished'. Besides---I've heard the Muslims believe perfection angers God; Taj Mahal has an imperfection designed in so as not to offend. So you're covered.

akwoodchuck · February 17, 2014, 02:36:28 AM

Quote from: flyingvan on February 17, 2014, 12:52:22 AM
Umm, no...But you can't let the 'perfect' be the enemy of the 'finished'. Besides---I've heard the Muslims believe perfection angers God; Taj Mahal has an imperfection designed in so as not to offend. So you're covered.

Reminds me of a story my old man told me since I was a whippersnapper, but his was about how the Navajo always leave an intentional flaw in their weaving....every time we'd make a little mistake on a job, he'd shrug and say, "that's just the flaw in the Navajo blanket....."

rick91351 · February 17, 2014, 06:42:59 AM

To me that is a great praise God it is not worse that it is. Learn from your mistakes. Others will follow (Yep plural) - if you continue to build.

Which from here looks like you are doin' a fine job. So most likely will be more and more. But you learn with each mistake.

Don_P · February 17, 2014, 07:29:35 AM

Oh, it happens more than you could ever imagine, most of us are too proud to admit it. We were setting up to put the engineered floor joists on one job, the mason had read the wrong dimension line on the print, off by 4", there was no fudging it he had to come back out. Another put 8' walls on the basement and it called for 9', the homeowners graciously lived with it. A 5.0 tremor turned one foundation into an hourglass, we managed to fudge that one, another trapedzoided by 2", we managed to slip and slide plates and get back pretty close. What I've learned is to keep trying to get back on when there is a dimensional problem, the troubles magnify as you get to the roof. Slide the upper walls if any and rafters around as much as you can hide to get the roof back as close as possible to square. If the roof is metal try very hard to get it all back, those long ribs are pretty unforgiving to the eye. I was riding with the lumber delivery truck recently and the driver pointed out a roof as we passed by, judging by the ribs it must have been out by 6-8", there is a point where you ought to take it apart and try again, that carpenter had far passed that point. The saw doc asked one time how far off the track setup on the mill was and I replied that it was perfect. The reply came back, "then you're not measuring close enough". Which is to say, it's all relative. Tile and linear finishes are less forgiving than something like carpet, sheet goods and plaster. The old rough sawn or hewn log framing took a good plasterer floating over the variations, covered by split lath to get it looking flat and straight to the eye. I've worked for people who could spot 1/32" error accurately and for others who I don't think would see a foot, a good bit of it is try to meet or exceed expectations, and it's easier if that's "in house"

.

February 17, 2014, 07:53:28 AM

on a previous garage job the foundation was poured 3 inches off

the carpenters weren't happy but it was not easy to see after it was done and the build was fine

your deviation is much more square than parts of this house (the foundation/basement has been added on 4 times if I count the last build)
including the basement dug with horses and hand poured cement --- it is not square

there is no such thing as a perfect house

finished is better than perfect every time

Redoverfarm · February 17, 2014, 08:33:34 AM

You may still have a chance to rectify some with the addition of the second floor. But as others have said "I've seen worse". Like Don_P stated that the problem left just multiplies itself as you continue. Sort of a snowball effect. With my build I thought I had really accomplished a lot by getting the foundation close. Not perfect but close. Then I started laying the 100+ year logs. Keep in mind that these were not machine made but hand hewn. So much for my squareness. But there was absolutely nothing that I could do but suck it up and keep going. Is it square? No. Is it that noticable? No. To compound this I did use metal roofing. A 2X can bend a little but metal sheeting does not. So I managed to get the sheeting/metal on square for the majority of the roof and then came back to the ends for some fine tuning. Slight taper here and there on the ends. Of course the same was apparent to the inside finishing. But just like the elevation difference on the corners being 5-1/2" difference from the low to the high there is a solution. Just have to think long and hard and it will come to you. We don't live in a perfect world.

astidham · February 17, 2014, 08:42:48 AM

Thanks!
you all have eased my mind.
I will have to say, I am very glad to have the deck part done...
pushing 100 lb sheets of advantech on top of a 10' wall with my wife on top catching was a real pain....
I can still feel it.

UK4X4 · February 17, 2014, 09:05:49 AM

There's square and there's nearly square good enough for the item your building

Things where you have missed the odd tweak etc just need to get ironed out as the job goes on

trim is used for a reason....the trim is meant to go on straight and cover the errors !

I don't think you'll find a truely perfectly square house or room, that goes for verticle too !

Usually when doing tiles , straight wood floors etc, i always try to choose the best straightest visual reference for starting

Giving my best effort to get the places in sight right, and the errors hidden in the least seen corners

Like a long bowed or angled wall and laminate flooring , using 1" wide skirting gives you a 1" start on getting the floor nicely lined up, even though you'd rather use a full piece for the first row, triming, scribing in the first row down to make it visually right is better than having diagonal flooring coverings

flyingvan · February 17, 2014, 09:16:49 AM

10' wall? That's even better. Your 'trapezoidal', but flat, second floor is only a problem because it means the walls beneath aren't perfectly plumb somewhere, assuming your ground level foundation IS perfectly square. I had assumed that 1" deviation was spread out over an 8' height; over 10' it's even less, and I imagine it's even more than 10' from the concrete to the advantech with the floor joists

February 17, 2014, 11:06:05 AM

Quote from: flyingvan on February 17, 2014, 09:16:49 AM
10' wall? That's even better. Your 'trapezoidal', but flat, second floor is only a problem because it means the walls beneath aren't perfectly plumb somewhere, assuming your ground level foundation IS perfectly square. I had assumed that 1" deviation was spread out over an 8' height; over 10' it's even less, and I imagine it's even more than 10' from the concrete to the advantech with the floor joists

The stud wall is 8' with a 2' web truss on top.
sorry for the confusion.

Todd

akwoodchuck · February 17, 2014, 01:37:08 PM

Like DonP stated, get it back on track with the roof framing.....nothing is more aggravating than trying to true up a wacky roof. Couple years ago we had a job setting attic trusses on an owner-built 2 story....none of us had seen the job yet, and our crew showed up at the same time as the boom truck. GC was whipping us like a bunch of Egyptians, we had to jump right on layout, ratrun, etc....we get most of the trusses set, and the framer on the plate opposite me starts screaming that my layout is all screwed up, so we stopped the presses and got the 100' tapes out. turned out that one eave wall was 2-5/8" or so longer than the other....the gable walls were by no means parallel, and one had about a 2" bow in it that was not going to be fixable. It was a nightmare trying to fudge the lookouts, tails, etc. back into something resembling square....and you can imagine how fun it was doing the soffits!

Moral of the story: a few funky walls won't necessarily translate to a funky roof, but you have to be on the ball on the layout and have a plan to mitigate any potential errors (like adjusting a birdsmouth cut, here and there, for example). Good luck!

Redoverfarm · February 17, 2014, 02:06:35 PM

Quote from: akwoodchuck on February 17, 2014, 01:37:08 PM
Like DonP stated, get it back on track with the roof framing.....nothing is more aggravating than trying to true up a wacky roof. Couple years ago we had a job setting attic trusses on an owner-built 2 story....none of us had seen the job yet, and our crew showed up at the same time as the boom truck. GC was whipping us like a bunch of Egyptians, we had to jump right on layout, ratrun, etc....we get most of the trusses set, and the framer on the plate opposite me starts screaming that my layout is all screwed up, so we stopped the presses and got the 100' tapes out. turned out that one eave wall was 2-5/8" or so longer than the other....the gable walls were by no means parallel, and one had about a 2" bow in it that was not going to be fixable. It was a nightmare trying to fudge the lookouts, tails, etc. back into something resembling square....and you can imagine how fun it was doing the soffits! Moral of the story: a few funky walls won't necessarily translate to a funky roof, but you have to be on the ball on the layout and have a plan to mitigate any potential errors (like adjusting a birdsmouth cut, here and there, for example). Good luck!

Yes when you go to making changes to correct one thing it affects another. So THINK if I do this what will it affect on the next step and be prepared to address it beforehand.

astidham · February 17, 2014, 02:15:11 PM

thanks everyone.
I have 8/12 storage trusses that i will be using on this build.

MushCreek · February 17, 2014, 06:43:39 PM

I thought my ICF walls were as close to perfect as possible. Measured diagonally, they were within 1/4". Outside dimensions were within 1/4" of what they should have been. I checked plumb here and there, but somehow never checked the front wall. There's nothing I could have done anyhow unless I caught it while the concrete was still setting. When I went to install the front door, I found the front wall to be 3/4" out of plumb! No big deal; I'll fix it with molding, since the door is, of course, plumb, but I was still surprised. Still have no idea how it happened.

Being a toolmaker by trade, it has taken me a while to let it go and call it 'good enough'.

MountainDon · February 17, 2014, 07:49:45 PM

The 4 corners of our cabin are square; the floor diagonals were within 1/8" The simple shower / toilet room is another matter.

Two interior walls were added in one corner of the main structure. How hard can that be? Somehow it is off. I forget by how much. Unless you look up at the ceiling outside the room you can see by the T&G ceiling something is amiss.

February 17, 2014, 10:34:12 PM

Is this thread becoming a builder's confessional? Probably a good way to make astidham feels better.....Here's my transgression, though it has nothing to do with square/plumb. It still bugs me every time I look at the front of the cottage.

I was framing for that picture window to the upper left; looking at it from the inside I realized the chimney chase would block some of the view so why not just move the window over a bit? It's no longer centered with the peak of the roof. I tried to balance it some with the slate shingles to the right but I should have stuck to the plan. I can see the flaw all the way from the highway.

MountainDon · February 17, 2014, 10:52:42 PM

... never noticed it until you confessed.

Don_P · February 18, 2014, 06:59:05 AM

I don't know how you can live with yourself

I hadn't noticed either.

We made a siding oops yesterday, off this morning to see whether to tear back and lose 2 rows of material or decide it's barely noticeable, correct and move on. The person that doesn't make mistakes doesn't do anything. It was definitely a Monday, didn't make it in and carried a double steel door up the hill, packed in tools, osb, studs and endured cold wet feet all day, got the truck out of the pasture and repaired fence on the way out...Tuesday is bound to be better

.

akwoodchuck · February 18, 2014, 01:32:22 PM

LOL this is great stuff....I was a finish carpenter in Boise for years; one time we had a guy on the crew who spent his whole life in the navy, then decided he wanted to try his hand at trim work after retirement. He did ok, but he was so slow, the boss called him "the Anchor"

.....I think he just kept him around for entertainment value. One time we were doing work in a cookie-cutter cul-de-sac (half a dozen homes with the same plan, different color schemes)...I lined the guy out on running base in two pantries, precut, prepainted. All he had to do was nail it in. Took him all day, he was so proud, came and got me to show off his work....I told him, "looks great, man....but you switched and put the wrong colors in."

Erin · February 21, 2014, 09:11:05 AM

Well mine is something that actually has to be fixed. 24x40 1.5 story over a full basement, my support posts, in the very center of the house, are out of plumb! Three of them; two in the basement one in the middle of the LR, holding up the loft floor.
The actual walls of the house are plumb, but the center posts all lean to the north about an inch... $:-\$

How did that happen?? How could I get the walls plumb but not the center posts??
Or--how did the walls remain plumb, but the posts managed to move?