Decoding NYS Building Codes

Started by Adam Roby, June 28, 2013, 06:45:17 PM

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Adam Roby

I don't quite understand what tangent you are going on about, as I never mention building something outside of code or hidden away from an inspector's sight.  I literally said I am trying to contact the local code enforcer before even visiting the land to make sure it suits what I am looking for.  Did you deliberately not read that part or mix up two threads in your head?  Also, are you from this area?  Are you an expert at what the prices for land are around here?  I can easily find land priced at $500 per acre... this lot is 6.5 acres selling for $18,000... that is 5 1/2 times the price of any dry lot in the area.  The land may only have 1 acre of buildable land, since there is a house (yellow X) right next to where my possible (blue X) is on my rendering.   They built a full sized house with full foundation... and I fully intend to ask them if I see someone outside as well.   

My best guess (until I hear back from the code enforcer) is that people do not want to spend $18k on just 1 acre of usable land.  If the current owner does not want to get stuck with the rest that can't be used or sold then he won't split the lot to sell either.  For my needs, I want buffer area, so I don't need more than a small area with the rest to hide from the public.  I don't want to see other houses or cars on the street, so this lot would make sense if it is allowed to be used for my purposes.

I am now considering just parking an camper trailer on the lot.  I am finding a lot locally in very good shape (26'-32') and since they have everything contained (holding tanks for black, grey and fresh water) they are likely more tolerated if this is indeed classified as wetlands.  I will need to look into it.

So the only relevant part of your reply is with respect to your own experience with wetlands.  I have also heard from others the nightmares that can arise from touching anything wetlands.  Building a pond and then having to put it back the way it was... sounds like a headache waiting to happen.

Adam Roby

#26
Looking at the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation, this lot MAY actually be in the clear.  I will need to call them before any offers are made for sure.



The red bounding box is approximately where the land outline is.  It is close though... will need to really make sure before hand.


Building

Well, your initial posts were about buying what are absolutely, 100% wetlands and then just getting your friend with a bulldozer to 'make a path' or whatever the case was. It was clear you had absolutely no idea what you were doing (and likely still don't).

Your next post was about buying what amounted to a hovel (exposed septic, etc).
On the basis of your first post, you very well may be 'one of those people' who are completely oblivious to land use regulations and don't realize the enormous pain in the ass you're in for if you buy a property that has unpermitted structures and/or waste disposal hazards.

Your first post was about wetland properties that you clearly didn't realize were regulated, your second strongly described a code violation property (because while I'm not from that area, I'm confident that open cess pools aren't in code pretty much everywhere) that while it may have existed undisturbed for some, you'd be kicking up a municipal hornets nest when it transferred.

All of these things are symptoms of a 'land bargain hunter' who knows how to go on realtor.com, set to 'lowest price first' and then doesn't concern himself with why that property is selling for 1/3rd what typical like properties in the area are selling for. You can dig in and get obstinately defensive when I point this out which is fine, that must just be your nature, but after you're done flailing, pause and ask yourself if maybe what I'm saying doesn't ring a bit true.

hpinson

I had a old cess pit too, and in order to get a permit for an outhouse, or any kind of build, that pit had to be filled and the in pipe capped. The electric company would not even talk to me without that squared away.  It was not a big job - a day with a shovel.  Fortunately the County was not picky about how it was collapsed and filled. The just let me do it, and prove it with pictures.  But, I understand that some regulators can be quite picky about collapsing old cess pits - requiring professionals in hazmat suits running backhoes and all that.  I think it varies a great deal state-to-state and probably at the county and town level too. When you talk with the inspector ask what the requirements are for dealing with this.  You may have to deal with it at the sale (MA towns would definitely require that) or only when you pull a septic permit.

These are all good reasons to bring down the price when you make an offer.  A requirement could be that the owner deals with these problems as a condition of sale.

You also want to check if trailers are allowed as residences.  That has changed a lot lately, across the country.  A lot of towns are NOT allowing it anymore, or only for short periods - six months - 1 year during a documented build. It's going to vary a lot locally I expect.

A question about the map - wetlands will include the river flood plain, up to a certain flood level (100 year - 500 year), and I don't see that reflected on the map. On the aerial photo, it looks like the building site is well above the river.  Ask the county or town if, for sure, your proposed building site is out of the flood plain.

So are there trout in Trout River?

Adam Roby

Quote from: Building on June 17, 2014, 06:19:26 PM
...It was clear you had absolutely no idea what you were doing (and likely still don't).
Your next post was about buying what amounted to a hovel (exposed septic, etc).

And you are obviously nothing more than a complete idiot. 

I saw a cabin for sale.  I went to see it.  I saw a cess pit and immediately said, no thanks.  How the hell does that at all say that I was about to buy a place with a cess pit?  You can't read, just shut the heck up and leave my thread alone.

Quote from: hpinson on June 17, 2014, 06:57:31 PM
...You also want to check if trailers are allowed as residences.  That has changed a lot lately, across the country...

A question about the map - wetlands will include the river flood plain, up to a certain flood level (100 year - 500 year), and I don't see that reflected on the map. On the aerial photo, it looks like the building site is well above the river.  Ask the county or town if, for sure, your proposed building site is out of the flood plain.

So are there trout in Trout River?

In Churubusco where I was initially looking, you are allowed trailers.  This is where my friends lot is.  Last I spoke with the code inspector from this area he was very slack of the rules.  No wetlands apply to those lots and they don't seem to care much, but I still would rather pull permits for everything and make sure everything is as legal as can be.  Most of the area they permit the campers when I have checked, and I believe in this one area as well.  This was one of my first questions for the code enforcer.  The wetlands is something that really needs to be looked into.  Even those maps are sometimes out of date.  From the looks of the map the "flat" part is 20-30' above the river.  They recommend calling the DEC.  My idea is to first get info from the code enforcer, to see if there are building restrictions and trailer restrictions for the area.  If he says it's a go, my next step is to go see that land for myself.  I might not like it in person.  From there, it would be a matter of finding out from the DEC and other agencies to see what other restrictions might exist, and check with local septic and well companies to see what the estimated costs would be.  Then decide from there.  At this point I am just looking partially for fun. 


Building

Quote from: Adam Roby on June 17, 2014, 08:09:07 PM
And you are obviously nothing more than a complete idiot. 

I saw a cabin for sale.  I went to see it.  I saw a cess pit and immediately said, no thanks.  How the hell does that at all say that I was about to buy a place with a cess pit?  You can't read, just shut the heck up and leave my thread alone.

The two properties you've posted about thus far are

1) Wetlands properties that you had no idea were regulated ("my buddy with a bulldozer...")
2) A property that had an open cess pool and people turning back after seeing it first glance.

I know how those properties price, I know the people apt to be most intrigued by them and they're the same people who think they can get their buddy with the bulldozer and just start in on a wetland patch. That is to say, clueless. You can squeal and howl and call names all you please but the problem is ultimately yours. You seem to be one of those guys who's attracted to buying other peoples expensive problems, because they're a 'bargain'. I'd wish you good luck with that, but I know how that turns out. You apparently don't.

Don_P

I think the points have been adressed by all. Let's move on.

Adam Roby

I got some feedback from the code enforcer.

Quote
A building and/or septic permit will be required.
The minimum set back from the water for a structure is 50'
The minimum set back for leach field from the water is 100' with 100' separation between well & septic system.
You are allowed to build all this by yourself and use a chemical toilet.
There is not any public sewer or water supply available at this location, but there is electrical which you can optionally connect to.
You can set up a camper or trailer on the property as long as you install the necessary water supply and septic system, unless the camper is all self contained.

So at least initially, it is worth a visit to the site.  My wife said she was wanting to go for a drive so she will likely tag along and come up with me and my daughter tomorrow.  We will look at it as a drive in the country, and a stop along the way.  If it turns out to be what I am looking for, then I start calling the different wetlands agencies (the inspector did not reply to that question so he may simply not know - or missed the question).  You also get a feeling for the place when there in person that is missing when looking on-line.  If the neighboring area looks cruddy then I may think twice about it.  As usual, I just like scouting areas to know what to expect when other lots pop up, and we enjoy the drive in the countryside, stopping at local family run restaurants and talking with the owners.  You don't get that in the city.

There are some farms in the area, I wonder if I should be concerned with the river's water quality (chemical/animal feces runoff etc) as far as using that source for bathing or dishes?  I suppose I could take a sample of the river and have some agency test it for a fee?  Anyone ever do this before? 


Don_P

Your NRCS, natural resource conservation service, office can likely tell you about streamwater quality.
Finding the property on google earth and checking out the neighborhood from the air can tell you about things you can't see from the road.


hpinson

Upstream farms would definitely be of concern in terms of leeched contaminants.  There is a lot of that in up-state NY. Also old mainly abandoned mill/ factory sites along the rivers and streams that leech some really bad stuff. Coliform contamination is in all surface water to some degree or other. If there are livestock or beavers around, Giardia.

I would think most any surface water is suspect without treatment. Definitely for drinking and dishes, and likely for bathing in:  You just never know what is going into a stream, clean as it may appear.

I wrote up some thoughts on water testing about a year back.

http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=11258.0

You would probably have more luck with a private lab than a public agency in terms of a on-demand analysis. Cost is $150 and up depending on what you test for. Mine cost about $375 and was worth it for peace of mind about my drinking water source. 

Passing the tests, to my satisfaction, was a condition of sale.

I was reminded of all that again a few weeks back- finishing up a backpacking trip in a pristine Wilderness area in southern Utah.  At one point, this particular trail wandered down into a wash, which was running.  It was a hot day and we decided to just walk down the "Wilderness" stream.  Pretty soon we came to a pipe exposed in the bank, and behind that pipe was a tank washing out of the sand bank. The pipe was flowing. Above was a nice green farm field in the otherwise barren desert. Pretty much all the backpackers were getting water from that river downstream-- though most were filtering.

I used to have a job as a bridge inspector, relatively near where you are looking for land.  We were in the water a lot.  We kept up on our Hepatitis, Tetanus, and Diphtheria shots.

A good indication of a badly polluted water source is a lot of algea growth.

Echo Don_P about Google Earth.  Live in that sucker before considering making an offer.

Adam Roby

#35
I was looking for the NRCS but somehow landed on the Natural Resources Defense Council, which when contacted, the NRDC told me they do not do any regional monitoring, so they referred me to the  http://www.scorecard.org/.  This site seems to have ratings for different categories of pollution or containments. 

Most of the statistics are out dated, but looking at the county is shows it to be amongst the cleanest top 20% of all counties in the US.
Ranked above average of all counties in the U.S. in terms of carbon monoxide emissions... (less population maybe?)
Based on EPA's most current data, this county ranked among the cleaner 30% of all counties in the US in terms of noncancer hazards from hazardous air pollutants.

Still trying to decipher the water statistics...  They either have no data or NY State as a whole has the worse water on the planet.   ???

I was sick all weekend, could not go see the land.  Will probably be postponed until after my vacation in July at this point.
My wife is going nuts looking at chalet's up North.  There seems to be an abundance foreclosures, with new ones popping up every day.  That is not the norm for this area, asking prices are 1/2 of their municipal evaluations.  Very strange... but I like driving in the country so we may spend the summer looking at different places... you never know what you may stumble upon.


Edit

Forgot to comment on the Google map stuff.  Yeah, I always do extensive area searches using 3 main sites, Google, Bing and Yahoo.  They all have different perspectives, and something that you can not see in one can sometimes be very visible in another.  I strongly recommend trying all 3 when searching an area.  Once you are satisfied with the satellite feeds, then you can also do a virtual drive by using street view.  I like to drive around the properties, and get a feel for the neighborhood that way as well.  Actually seeing the land for yourself obviously gives you a perspective you can not get online... so that is always my preferred method, actually walking the perimeter of the land and seeing everything with my own eyes.  Also, most of these maps are 2 or more years old, so things change with time.


hpinson

This may help. 

The National Surface Water Quality Assessment Program (NAWQA)

http://water.usgs.gov/nawqa/

It may be a bit overwhelming. There is a lot of detail if you dig.

United States Geological Survey, Water Resources Division in Albany may be of help with their publications too.  They do a lot of local work monitoring both surface- and ground-water quality

Adam Roby

Damn... agent just called me to say a cash offer was made and the seller has accepted.  This is what happens when you listen to your wife instead of your gut.  Would have been too quick anyways, would have had to make an offer with the condition of it being not a wetlands protected area. 

On to the next I suppose.

* Agent told me he would tell me what it sold for once everything goes through, just so I know for the next one.  Kind of strange that is sat for 550 days until I got interested in it though.

Don_P

Sounds like your interest was used to motivate a buyer.