As most of you know DH and I have been building on our house for about 2 1/2 years. Yeah I know....we're SLOW but so is the money :-[
Our money tree did not do well this year along with a few physical health setbacks .
We now are ready to do the Drywall - Sheetrock and facing a decision as which route to take. We keep asking each other do we do it ourselves or sub it out?
We have a lot more time than money but neither of us are verry good at the finishing of sheetrock.
So far, we've not found anyone that wants to come in after we hang it then they finish. They insist on doing all of the job or none.
The estimate we did get covered ALL materials, hanging the rock, tapeing and etc.....turn key job. It would be ready for us to paint.
The house has 9 foot walls throughout except the Living Room that has a trey ceiling bumpted up to 10 foot. The ceiling area to be covered is 1728 sq. ft. and wall space to cover is 4200 sq. ft. for a total of 5928.
The estimate the guy gave us was $4147.20 based on the formula of $2.40 x 1728. Is this a fair price or too high? ( Don't understand the formula ??? )
Looks like he flat rated you for floor area - same as ceiling area, and at a price he knows he will come out OK at.
I have seen prices around here of $1.00 per square foot of sheetrock but we are in a high labor area. Based on that it sounds OK - I don't know how other prices in your area compare.
Hey, long time no see! Good to hear from you again, Pioneergal :) Don't feel bad - we've been working on our place for 5 yrs & we're not done ::) But we've done several out buildings & a big shop - we have phase 1 & 2 pretty much done in the house - some repairs needed due to the experimental nature of our home - and not expecting gophers to be so militant! >:( But, we'll get there one of these days c*
Anymore pix?
Pioneergal, don,t feel bad about 2 1/2 years heck I am going on 6 years. I was at church the other night and it came up about Noah taking 120 years to build the Ark (Genesis 6-3) so I told everyone that I still had plenty of time. c* Everyone laugh, everyone but the Boss (aka the wife).
So far I have done all the work myself (with help from friends) and I too am at the sheet rock stage. From talking with other friends who have built their own house I am going to job the work out unless the price scares me too much. God blessed me with good looks not much $$$$ rofl rofl so I know how it is about the money issue.
Mark
IMHO, there is a reason they are not bidding the taping work only. Too many variables in the hanging job can reflect poorly on the tapers.
Don't stagger the seams enough? There are sure to be cracks later. Same with drywalling around doors and windows. Too many opportunities for shifting.
Are you planning on nailing, gluing or screwing? Nails can pop. Screws can not be sunk all the way in.
A neighbor of mine owns a drywall company. He bid a side remodel job on taping only. The home owner was going to do the hanging. When he walked in on the job, he adjusted the bid. The homeowner had "proudly" used up all the scrap on the walls, rather than tossing the smaller pieces. My neighbor's new bid consisted of tearing off all of the hung drywall, rehanging it himself and then taping it. He knew what the job would look like if he didn't.
This is not to scare you off. The hanging is the grunt part of it all. You WILL be tired after hanging the drywall. The more the merrier, but leave the measuring/cutting to a select few. It'll save you hassels in the end.
The taping is just putsy work. Start with a small knife and work your way up to a large knife, feathering the edges as you go. If you are careful, there will be a minimum of sanding needed. If not, the sanding is the hardest part. Remember that several light coats beat one thick one any day. The sanding is where you save the majority of your money by doing it yourself. Mud and tape is cheap. Just take your time, and make sure of the finish BEFORE you paint.
A good hanger should be able to average 40 some 4' x 12' sheets in a day. I don't remember how long the taping takes. That should give you some idea of the costs involved.
We can probably get tips about doing sheetrock going in discussion here also if you like and you decide to do your own.
We could start a separate thread. Post here if there is interest and we will do it if there is enough interest.
We could also modify this thread to include tips.
Quote from: glenn kangiser on February 07, 2008, 03:51:37 PM
We can probably get tips about doing sheetrock going in discussion here also if you like and you decide to do your own.
We could start a separate thread. Post here if there is interest and we will do it if there is enough interest.
We could also modify this thread to include tips.
Yes!
Please Do it Glenn!
We welcome any help and tips.
Glenn & I did extensive drywall work in our house in the valley - it is very tedious work - like fishing guy said - grunt work - it takes awhile to get the hang of it but you'll get plenty of practice on the taping & mudding. Glenn cut & hung all the drywall. We had an area in the bathroom shower where the ceiling had a stepped down design - there had been a leak in the roof so the drywall was cracking off & looked terrible... I got tired of looking at it so fixed it myself - and I do have to say, it looks very professional - you would never know it ever needed repairing. Glenn was kinda surprised that I'd done such a good job without any supervision from him... :)
OK - modified your first topic, Pioneer Gal so everything will stay together in this thread. Tips were already coming in from fishing_guy so I thought we should keep it here.
One is that after getting to the wide knife, minor feathering can be done with a damp sponge rather than a sander- keeps the dust down.
Another thing I like is to use the fiberglass open web netting type self stick tape. Put it over the crack -it sticks to the sheetrock- compound goes right through it and into the crack without the messy taping or buying and learning to use a bazooka (pro taping machine) for ease of application.
Labor costs vary so much from one place to another I have no way of saying if that's reasonable. All I can say is do like we did for the metal re-roof we did in '06. We got three estimates PLUS we asked each one for references. They all came through with prices and customers they had roofed. We checked the installers and their customers out, actually looked at some of the roofing jobs. Then we picked and we've been happy.
That said, I don't LIKE doing drywall work much, but I have done my share. There is a learning curve, steeper for some folks.
Fishing_guy's advice on many thin coats being better than heavily gooping it on IS Gospel!
Like Glenn, I too like the yellow fiberglass tape better than paper tape.
Ditto the dmp sponge vs. dry sandpaper. A terry towel washcloth wrepped over a sponge is good too.
To me this was an obvious hint... For lifting the sheets up against the ceiling it's a great help to use a simple lever and block setup. Once the sheet is positioned vertically against the wall you slip the lever under the bottom edge, slide a fulcrum in a ways, step on the lever as your hands get it positioned correctly. Zip in a few drywall screws, double check the position and finish securing the sheet.
For ceiling sheetrock installation, if you don't have a jack, make a "t" brace that is just a bit longer than the distance from the installed sheetrock surface on the ceiling - maybe an inch to the floor. Put the sheetrock up to the ceiling - 2 people? then put the prop under it and kick the bottom tight against the floor. It will hold it in place until you get it secured.
I know some will not like this -- I don't know if it is allowed by code but it works. Another contractor showed it to me. Use a 1" wide crown roofing stapler to fasten the sheetrock , with the crown set to go a bit below the surface. Just a minor dimple to fill and you are done. The 1" grab of the staple on the sheetrock really holds well. Others may not agree but it worked great for me.
Has anyone ever used 4 x 12 foot sheetrock placed horizontally? It can save on the number of feet of taping required. Never done it that way myself though. ???
I have hung and taped ALOT of drywall and the number one tip that I would give is: thin coats of mud... build up slowly. It is far easier to put mud on than take it off when dry.
Don I usually run the sheets horizontal as there are less seams that way and usually easier to hang.
As for tips: If you can afford to hire it out do it. If not make sure that the seams are staggered. Mudding the seams is gradual wideing of the joint. 4" to 6" to 8". Most I have done and seen on the last two widths a slight elevation is given just above the seam with the other side of the blade to paper. Then the subsequent time a drywall knife to cut the only ridge (made by the passing on either side of the tape and allowing a slight ridge) then onto the next wider knife. Same goes for it. Very little sanding just skimming off that slight ridge.
If you have doorways or windows do not break the seam of the drywall at the window or doorway edge. Overlap so it breaks directly above each or a stud with out either side. If it is going to crack I would almost guarentee 100% it will happen there if you break at the edge of the opening. Straight up to the ceiling.
When taping corners you can embed the tape on both sides the first time but on follow-up layers just do one side at a time and come back to do the other side the next day.
No offense to Glenn but I was told by several people not to use the mess tape. Use the standard paper tape. Don't really know the reasoning but it may be cost that they can make out better with the paper or they prefer the finish. If you use paper tape do not soak it in water as some may lead you to believe. Just fold in half (if corner) or lay flat in the mud. Wet tape will not adhere to the compound as it was intended to.
Just my $.02 worth
Good Luck
I have never had a crack with the mesh tape. The pro's don't use it much I don't think as their machines use the paper easily -- split second for a joint.
I have seen pros at one apartment complex go through with about a 6 foot straight edge to go across several studs. They shimmed the low ones with cardboard shims - the solid type like cerial boxes are made of -- probably a specialty item. They also planed down the bumps with a hand plane to make the smoothest wall they could without waves in it.
This was done before the sheetrock was installed.
That's a [cool] tip.... planing the highs and shimming the lows with something that won't split if you driv a fastener through it. I'm gong to save up the cereal boxes instead of recycling if we decide to do some drywall.
This is my personal opinion but on the sheet rock sub it out if your not sure. This is the finish of your project that will be seen the most. You can do a great job on the framing, siding, roofing, electrical ect. but the painted sheet rock is what you will see when sitting in your chair for ever. I paid to have mine done and should have stopped the job in the middle when I saw what was going on. The last 12 years I look at 3 spots on the ceiling and still cuss about it! One day when I am getting ready to paint again I will bring in a good finisher to correct those spots. This was my home and I was pushed due to a very hard winter hitting us and I needed to move in, the old mobil home was freezing up and could not be made warm in the 50 MPH winds and close to zero deg temps. Nice part in doing the framing you can correct problems easy but not with the rock if you did it wrong and it is all up. It is a learned art to make it look nice. Mark H.
Invest in the right tools, the proper assortment of knives for each successive layer.
You need a variety of "knives" to do proper work. Also read a book, try the library of buy a book.
We've recently seen a couple drywall jobs on custom homes - one was on a several million $$$ house that had to have a total gutting & probably million $$$ remodel job - the drywall job wasn't too great. Another custom home the drywall crew did a lousy job & stole all the tools the rest of the carpenters/builders had left in the house for months while building it... the drywall crew was from the valley...
So... it is something you will always be looking at - but you can work at it & make it look nice - but then again, if you get a really good deal from someone & you have gotten references & seen their work & have the money, go for it!
Quote from: MountainDon on February 07, 2008, 08:14:18 PM
Has anyone ever used 4 x 12 foot sheetrock placed horizontally? It can save on the number of feet of taping required. Never done it that way myself though. ???
Sorry Don. I know you are into numbers, so I'll make you think a bit. The strength of drywall in is in the horizontal orientation. Just try to break it, and you'll see what I mean. When going across studs, it'll only make it that much stronger.
Is it easier to tape in the other orientation? Yep. Are you going to have to retape when the doorknob or kid goes through it? Yep. It it easier to tape the second time? NOPE!!!
I use the fiberglass tape. It is much more forgiving than the paper tape. Read that it does not delaminate if you do not have just the right amount of mud underneath it. I also have NEVER had a crack while using it.
It's not rocket science, but it is hard work and artsy faurtsy. You can do it, just take your time and DON'T xpect to use shortcuts. It'll cost you in the end!
http://www.drywallschool.com (http://www.drywallschool.com) has a lot of tips on doing drywall. The stuff about where to put pressure on the knife and making sure you've got the right "thickness" of compound is really useful.
I'm not sure if it was there or elsewhere that I read you use the mesh tape with "hot mud" (i.e. the stuff you mix with water that sets much quicker) but use paper for the pre-mixed mud. This would seem sensible as the hot mud is probably stronger.
The cardboard strips are called "drywall shims" around the Bay Area and are quite easy to find once you know what to ask for. They're conveniently a 1/16" thick and were invaluable when I was putting up drywall on my low-end 1920's house - the original plaster and wooden lathe covered all sorts of randomness that would have been hard to hide with unshimmed sheet rock (and the old, dry wood was hard to remove).
I saw a Bob Villa program yesterday with a drywall finisher at work. He used paper tape in the corners and nylon mesh tape on the hoizontal joints. His opinion was that the paper tape made for a stronger corner. Opinions?
i used to use mesh and then went to paper and once you get the hang of it I think it is easier then mesh.... especially in all corners and cieling joints. paper also won't show splits/gaps like mesh after the compound dries.
When I repaired the bathroom ceiling, on the 12"x12" section that was stepped down from the ceiling I purchased a 12"x12" piece - can't even remember what it was called but IIRC, it had cardboard edges & mesh in the center - you mudded it on & then it required several layers of thin mud on the outside to make it seamless & look like the original. That really speeded things up for me for doing the edges, then the rest was just the normal repair.
So far I have to echo what Redover Farms said.
I have done a number of sheetrock jobs over the years and to be honest, it's not my favorite thing to do. It's also not my least favorite.
Don said get the right tools. I second that. Sheetrock tools aren't expensive and make the job a lot easier. EITHER RENT OR BUY A SHEETROCK JACK! It will take a full sheet and place it in position and hold it on the ceiling. I bought mine for 250.00 and it has served me well over the years.
Taping isn't hard, just boring.
Saving 4000.00 is a good thing if you have more time than money!
Be sure to get the wide knife for over the seams -- I usually start with a 6 inch and finish later coats with a 12", and of course get the little metal edge pan to work from.
Thanks to all for the tips and please keep posting them! I am reading all of them and taking notes.
Lord knows, we need all the help we can get! ;)
Keeping your knives clean saves lots of work -- a piece of paper or cardboard on the edge of the knife scratches the wet coat making another thing that will need repair. Wipe the edge with a crumpled paper - junk in the garbage etc to keep it clean.
Keep lumps out of the compound on your taping knife.
Use the wide thin knives that look like stove pipe metal for most of the finishing stuff. Stiffer knives such as a 6 inch putty knife are only suitable for smaller stuff - screws - nails etc. Usually one quick wipe one direction then another across like an x to clean up. It will dry - shrink in the center - then you will come back later and do it again. Don't worry about perfect the first time -- just fast and good. Shrinkage will require at least 1 or 2 more coats before texture anyway but you don't want to deal with big lumps.
Texturing the walls is most forgiving. Smooth walls require the most work and are pretty hard for all except pro's.
Cheap texture guns are available everywhere and work with a small compressor with a regulator pretty well.
Quote from: glenn kangiser on February 07, 2008, 10:17:47 PM
I have never had a crack with the mesh tape. The pro's don't use it much I don't think as their machines use the paper easily -- split second for a joint.
That is just about right on the money Glenn. The advantage of mesh is that it gets "buried" in the mud. It can take variations in temperature a lot better. Paper tape lays underneath the mud, and in most casts works very well. But if your mud is a little dry, it will delaminate over time, especially in extreme conditions (like freeze/thaw cycles in a cabin setting.
The paper is easier to apply with the tools(we used to use a "banjo", not sure what the newest tech is). It also is easier to get a good finish on.
Good knives, technique and patience are the key to getting a good finish.
DH and I have read all the tips and have given much thought to the idea of doing the job ourselves. Especially after we got a call yesterday from a friend who has done sheetrock in the past and he has offered to help us with our job.
Of coarse we all know that the road has been paved with good intentions of people wanting to help so we'll see what happens. No slur intended but I'm sure everyone on the board would have a story about promised help.
Reguardless, with help or without help we have come to the conclusion that it is something we can do ourselves. We will just be S L O W at the job ! :-[
After reading my post again I hope that I didn't come across as being over confident in our ability to do the sheetrock. Actually it's just the opposite.
It's just that after you guys cheered us on and your kindness to give some inside tips we b e l i e v e that we can do the job with time on our side. When we balanced the books we had a lot of time and a little bit of money.
Not complaining mind you it's just the way it is. This building process has been long and at times wearing on the emotions and finances but Mike was saying today that we are so blessed to be this far along and still have the house debt free.
So, it has been worth it!
We checked on the septic system and we should be able to use the conventional system at the cost of about $4000.00. So, after we finish the sheetrock and put in the septic system we hope to be very near to moving in to this long awaited dream.
Pioneergal, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed you can move sheetrock. ::)
I think this is my second post and my knowledge of sheetrock is similar, but i did stay at a Holiday Inn Express. Wanted to pass along what I saw/heard on tv the other day. The program Holmes on Homes stated that when installing sheetrock to keep in mind that mold loves PAPER, esp. moist paper. So score one for the mesh. Of course if you are using paper coated sheetrock I guess it matters little. They also said that the premix compound most of us (or me at least) tend to use is very susceptible to mold, while the site-mixed isn't(guess I'm going to all site-mixed). He also stated that the pre-mix is only recommended for the final/finish coat ( I think due to it being less strong ???) and that if you use it generally it takes more finish time. I think I agree with the site-mixed taking less time to finish as the last job I did was my home office in the shop. I used site-mixed for the first time and the job went MUCH faster, but will say at the time I put it down to having learned more from previous jobs. c*
Thanks guys for all the hints. Feel free to correct what I have stated if wrong, would not want someone to get bad info.
Mark
Thanks for the info, Mark.
I don't do a lot of it but am OK at it. I haven't site mixed since around 1964 but didn't do much after that. It was on a remodel working for my great uncle. He was quite a craftsman.
I am redoing my house in Florida and decided to use 1/2 inch plywood on the interior perimeter walls to help stiffen up the structure. We screwed them in. Costs about the same as drywall. The next door neighbor mudded over his old paneling and it looks great after a number of years, so we'll do the same. We're patching the old drywall on the other walls.
My son does lots of remodels and uses plywood all the time. Seems to all be holding up well. He uses stucco sometimes and it looks like plaster the way he textures it. Also, the new paperless drywall is awesome.
We used to site mix our Durabond 90(used for the filler coat), otherwise we used a lot of premis. This was back in the 1970's though.
Since then, I've remodeled the basement, drywalled the neighbor's garage and workshop, and most recently did a finish coat on my brother-in-law's garage. I also did some major patching in the house my daughter just bought.
I have had the best luck with LaFarge joint compound. Just works for me. But for sure your milage WILL vary. The pre-mix has the benefit of being smooth and the right consistancy. Just remember not to cheap out and put the leftovers back in the pail. They will show up as streaks, and in the worst possible spot. (A corralary of Murphy's law I presume).
Never had any more of a problem with mold in any of my jobs.
Lots of good tips but, the best one is to hire it done if at all possible. One of the worst jobs you will encounter building your house IMHO. I'm not sure where you are located but the price you were quoted is the same price I paid here in central Tx and felt it was not excessive and the guys did a great job.
If you want to tackle the job yourself, I highly recommend you rent a lift from your local rental store, Home Depot has them too. You can very easily lift a full 4 x 8 or 4 x 12 sheet to the ceiling or even high up on side walls, with one hand tied behind your back! Truly a great took and one I would not attempt to do without. Very inexpensive and if you are working alone, indispensable. I don't know how else one man could hang a ceiling without it. I'm probably wrong but, believe it was like $35 per week?????
Sub it out is my first choice, I hate sheetrock!
Okie Bob
You could calculate out the cost of the materials, tools you would buy etc. -- deduct it from the quote and see if you want to do it for that amount of money -- that would be the only savings.
Whatever amount of time they quote you -- multiply by 3 or 4 to get how long it would take you -- maybe more. See how much per hour you are saving. Maybe it is cheaper to pay the pro and work at what you know to pay them.
Run away from any large scale sheetrock job.
I have done a bit of it, and I hate every second. I am currently finishing up a bathroom remodel and had to make some wall and ceiling
"edits" :D
If you are dead set on having the whole house 'rocked, then find a way to sell a kidney and just have them do it. The amount of time iwould take for you to get this to look acceptable would be substantial. You will be old, grey, and bitter by the time you get done. This is honestly one part that you should let the pros do it. They will be in and out in a week and you can prime and paint and get on with your life.
Don't try and do a smooth wall finish if you do it yourself. Use texture.
Also consider doing a faux paint finish. French brush or multi-color techniques can cover really, really bad sheetrock work (ask me how I know).
It was posted here before, but get the right tools. The corner mud tools are a Godsend.
BTW.. if you have pros do it, check your wiring beforehand, and check it after. They get sloppy sometimes with roto-zips and screw up electrical boxes and security wiring. Make sure that your contract includes a mitigation clause for any electrical damage.