Water conservation

[NM_Shooter]

Saw some interesting comments on the recent PEX thread and thought that I would start this thread. 

Clearly, having some foresight when initially building goes a long way.  Sort of an ounce of prevention thing, right?  Probably the best thing that I did was put in a hot water loop back to my tank when the house was built.  But I didn't install my recirc pump right away, and if you are plumbing in a loop, you can expect to wait for your hot water somewhere.  Furthest from my tank was my master shower.  It would take 8 gallons to get it warmed up.  I was dumping a lot of water into my septic.  That's fixed.

In retrospect, I wish I had plumbed a gray water system in.  Even without use for irrigation, keeping excess water out of the septic is a good thing.  A separate drain field for gray would have been nice to have for the whole house.  I do irrigate the lawn and vegetable garden and fruit trees, so this would have been a very good thing to have.

With regards to some retrofit stuff, some looks good.  Some not so good.

The under the sink recirc pumps push hot water back down the cold water lines.  You are either waiting for hot or cold water.  Take your pick. 

One of the coolest ideas I've seen is an under the sink reservoir that pumps water into your toilet tank.  You get to re-use your sink water when it is available. 

BTW... lint from you washing machine is hell on your leach field.  Put in a lint filter for the drain water. 

-f-

[Redoverfarm]

Saw some interesting comments on the recent PEX thread and thought that I would start this thread. 

One of the coolest ideas I've seen is an under the sink reservoir that pumps water into your toilet tank.  You get to re-use your sink water when it is available. 

BTW... lint from you washing machine is hell on your leach field.  Put in a lint filter for the drain water. 

-f-

Never heard of that before. Neat idea.  Although the majority of the conservations ideas are great but it becomes comes difficult with older homes but would be fantastic for new construction.

[NM_Shooter]

Just did a google... check this out!  Very innovative:

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/07/wash_your_hands.php

Another good idea:

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/04/athena_contolla_1.php

Both are very low on the remodel intensity scale.

more on the Aqus System:  http://www.watersavertech.com/AQUS-Diagram.html

-f-

[MountainDon]

I looked at the Athena once and IIRC I came away with the idea it was good for fitting to an older 3.5 GPF toilet as it's low setting gave a 1.5 Gal flush.

Plus my personal problem was our toilet has a fancy side flush lever and that unit only adapts to front lever. And it's a 1.6 anyways.

[MountainDon]

The Caroma toilets deserve a good looking at as well. The dual flush idea is super.
A quick glance at the toilet MaP Ratings (Maximum Performance flush) has them listed among the highest rated for efficiency. Efficiency is measured in how many grams of a control substance the toilets flush through in a single flush.

This is a very handy method to compare toilets rather than relying on looks, price, color, or manufacturers sometimes self-serving claims. It's a large file size download, although there are some smaller files that target specific types of toilets.

[Willy]

Water Conservation is great for city water people but I have a well and a septic system. I pump the water out of the ground and put it back into the ground, just a big circle. The dirt between the 2 systems filters it before getting used again. Not sure I want to fill my tolet tank up with dirty kitchen sink water? I have been on septic systems all my life and never had one back up I had control over how it was installed. The 3 homes I have had systems put in were never pumped in over 10 years and the home I live in now it has been 12 plus years. When I sold one I thought it was funny when the pumper guy said well the tank is full you were lucky. They required the tank pumped when the home was sold. He had no problem pumping the solids off the top and I watched. The tank had lots of fluids in it allowing more room for solids after 10 years of use. It realy depends on how well the system is installed and what you put down it to ruin a good composting system. Never had a back up in the drain feild but I have allways had large drain feilds. Most were at least 300 ft long with reserve areas of that much more if needed. I dislike the low gal tolits but had to put them in my new home. After inspection I removed the container in the tank to make it like a old tolet but it still had the required stamps on the outside to be passed. If I had a slow well I might have leftthem that way but I get over 28 GPM and it has never slowed down. I don't waste water but I do use it. I don't wash my vehicals very often as it is not nessasary to drive unless you can't see out the windows. I live on a dirt road so it gets dirty again on the way out or in. They have not been washed in 5 months due to winter. Mark

[MountainDon]

Water Conservation is great for city water people but I have a well and a septic system.

I agree to a point, Mark. As PEG is fond of saying; It Depends.

It depends where you are located. Well static levels are falling all over the west and other parts of the country.  Not all the pumped water returns directly to the ground water supply. Here in my part of the NM desert, much of the pumped water ends up being lost to evaporation, used in growing crops, etc. When the recorded ground water levels all show declines over decades of use, that has to be taken note of. Other areas of the country/world don't have such an obvious problem looming.

[Willy]

Water Conservation is great for city water people but I have a well and a septic system.

I agree to a point, Mark. As PEG is fond of saying; It Depends.

It depends where you are located. Well static levels are falling all over the west and other parts of the country.  Not all the pumped water returns directly to the ground water supply. Here in my part of the NM desert, much of the pumped water ends up being lost to evaporation, used in growing crops, etc. When the recorded ground water levels all show declines over decades of use, that has to be taken note of. Other areas of the country/world don't have such an obvious problem looming.

Where I see waste is golf courses in the middle of the desert all green with grass and small lakes with fountains spread around for the effect! Swiming pools in places that use water from low rivers flows in other states. We need to grow food to eat but pools, fountains, golf courses, water rides, water displays in Lost Wages ect are something we realy don't need. I had a pool in our back yard as a kid. We wasted more water in one swim then the whole day of flushing tolets would do. We are a wastefull socity in things we do but it seems the little things are what is talked about needing changed. Look at Al Gore and his homes waste telling use how to live! The tolet thing is not much of a correction in water waste. Say you flush even 25 times a day your looking at 25 gals or so of a saving yet it takes way more than that to wash off the patio. car, water the lawn, fill the pool ect. I laugh when I think of the building inspector police wanting to see my tolet tank to make sure I am not wasting water from my well when the city has sprinklers running in town over flowing into the street running down the gutters in a rain storm! Your right "IT DEPENDS" but heck why waste time on a tolet law when there are things out there that waste 1,000s of gallons more and there not getting rid of waste there decorating or playing in it. AWWW I feel better now. Mark

[NM_Shooter]

I'll probably have to haul water to my cabin.  If i can save a gallon, it is one less I have to carry and load into the storage tank.

Conservation is probably less important to city types.  Their water gets recycled by the utility folks.  Comes in via pipe, out via pipe. 

Those of us who live in the desert probably are a bit more cautious about aquifer levels than most others.  (Probably in this case sort of means It Depends)

[Willy]

I'll probably have to haul water to my cabin.  If i can save a gallon, it is one less I have to carry and load into the storage tank.

Conservation is probably less important to city types.  Their water gets recycled by the utility folks.  Comes in via pipe, out via pipe. 

Those of us who live in the desert probably are a bit more cautious about aquifer levels than most others.  (Probably in this case sort of means It Depends)

Now if you need to save water at a cabin because you have to haul it or have a slow well that is different. I lived off of 90 gals a day from a 390 ft drilled well and one 250 gal tank of water hauled a week with a 24+ mile drive. I learned to save water and conserve it. I had 2 horses, a cow, 2 pigs, several dogs, home based cookie buisness, small lawn and washed our own landry off of it. I learned you can take a long shower and use that water to fill the washer for the first cycle, dishes got washed in one side and all rinced at the same time, no running fausets. Flush the tolet only when realy needed, and don't wash your hands each time you touch something. You realy don't need 2 showers a day and the car will live with out a bath to. You also fill a pitcher with water and put it in the reffer to get a cold drink from insted of running the sink to get it cold. The list goes on and on but you can use less water. Glad I don't have to do this now but I still feel bad when I run the sink fauset to long. Mark

[Redoverfarm]

NM_Shooter could you not go with a cistern for everything but drinking. Although I did live in a house that had cistern to drink. That was before bottled water was around.  What little drinking water you had to have would be very little in comparison to washing, showers, flushing and the like.  I guess you could even put in two systems to draw off of different types of store water.

[MountainDon]

Our local city golf course uses water from the waste water treatment plant. Better than just pouring it into river if you need to have a golf course in the first place.

The fountains at the Bellagio (LasVegas, NV...  there's a LV in NM as well. No comparison  ) are a marvel to see, but you have to wonder about how much evaporates.

Water trivia... Public water fountains are extremely hard to find in Las Vegas. They want to sell you something to drink. I can't tell you how exactly to find it, but there is one in the Paris Las Vegas (Eiffel Tower) area. It's in an obscure place. Most folks would never see it.

[NM_Shooter]

I am hoping to do a cistern.  I also may have access to a spring that is uphill from my property.  But for the short term I am going to have 40 gallon poly tank for washing, and we'll just bring in drinking water as needed.  5 Gallons usually lasts us close to a week.  Thank God for beer to ease the water requirements!

[MountainDon]

...access to a spring that is uphill...

Hmmmm!  Source of water for cooking mash and source of water for cooling the output of a still.   



Also good place for keeping beer cool.

[ScottA]

Shhhhh...Don don't give away my new business plans.

[MountainDon]

I've visited two remote locations (good 4x4 required) in UT (yes UT. Not everyone there was/is Mormon.) where folks had stills back during prohibition. Interesting history. We were lucky enough to have descendants of the family show us around.

[PA-Builder]

...  It would take 8 gallons to get it warmed up.  I was dumping a lot of water into my septic. 

Shooter,
I have a similar situation with a 1,000 gallon poly tank and shallow well jet pump in my cabin.  I haul water in a 65 gallon poly tank on my truck to fill the 1,000 gallon tank.  Getting hot water to sinks wastes a lot of water.  I am thinking about putting an angle valve at the side of the sink cabinets that, when opened, will route water back to the poly tank via a separate 1/2" CPVC line (other supply lines from the pump are copper).  After 20-30 seconds, I will close the angle valve, open the standard sink faucet, and I should have very hot water at the sink with little or no waste.  Does anyone see a problem with this type set-up ?  Thanks.

[NM_Shooter]

Hello PA, I think that is pretty much the same thing as a home recirc pump, and a good idea!  I envy your cistern.  (No Arkansas puns please).   Does your shallow well pump sit in the poly tank?  How do you get the water into the tank in your truck? 

Don... when I was a kid in Arkansas, a buddy of mine and I found a still back in the woods.  (As opposed to the ones you find in the middle of the highway).  It was made out of an old refrigerator.  The mash tub was in the top, and it was still warm.  We didn't stick around.

[PA-Builder]

Shooter,
I ran a hose bibb to the inside of my garage at home and use a garden hose (the hose is only used for this) to fill the tank (takes about 15 minutes).  I then use another hose at the cabin to drain the water from the truck tank to the cabin tank (takes about 30 minutes).  Essentially I have "city water" now at the cabin.  The shallow well pump sits on a stand I built above the tank (about 5' high), with a 1 1/4" PVC suction line that goes from the pump down to the bottom of the tank (foot valve there).

[glenn kangiser]

Sounds like your recirculating valve should work fine to me, PA.  No need for all those fancy motors and such.

[MountainDon]

Hey PA, that valve is perfect! It's an ideal way to save water for anyone on a closed cistern system. Ya' already have the pump, so add a little pipe and you're all set.

Great idea.

[PA-Builder]

Thanks for the encouragement gentlemen.  Since Glenn, Don, et al gave this concept a go,  I will begin the changes shortly.  Like Glenn said, I like to keep things simple !

[MountainDon]

To do that valve thing I'd like to find a nice quarter turn ball valve that wouldn't look ugly. I use utility ball valces as quick shut offs at the laundry and one under the sink base for the dishwasher supply. Turn the laundry off with a couple quick flips of the handles in between uses.

Let us know how you eventually set this up. Photos? Thanks.

[Willy]

To do that valve thing I'd like to find a nice quarter turn ball valve that wouldn't look ugly. I use utility ball valces as quick shut offs at the laundry and one under the sink base for the dishwasher supply. Turn the laundry off with a couple quick flips of the handles in between uses.

Let us know how you eventually set this up. Photos? Thanks.

Here is a site that sells 3/way brass ball valve on line that would work.

http://www.plumbingworld.com/kitz_water_valves.html

I allmost put a return line to my well casing to allow water to circulate to keep it from freezing but changed my mind. I figured if I needed to trickle it the power must be off and no way would one return line take care of all my fausets. If the power was off it would take a generator to work the return line to the well. Instead I just made sure I could drain the whole system if needed and ran all my plumbing in inside walls. Outside walls pipes are easy to freeze in if temps drop real low. I also installed lots of pipes to the valves, spickets ect off a manifold so I could isolate a froozen pipe and not loose the complete system. I also ran 2 pipes to the house one is a empty spare all ready plumbed in to the manifold. Mark

[Redoverfarm]

Although this is not really "on topic" but had been mentioned in this thread concerning toilets.  When I went to Lowes on Saturday I strolled through the discounted racks in the walkways.  There was what I would consider a "idoit proof"   toilet flange 3"/4". I had never seen these before but I could grasp the design.  The bolting flange was seperate in design from the glue up flange. In essence you could make a mistake with the position of the flange when you glued the down pipe to it and not be a problem. Once the down pipe was glued the toilet bolting flange rotated to gain the proper position for the toilet.  It is a real pain when the flange is glued 10 deg off with the  bolt pattern.  I needed some and picked up two for the cabin at 1/3 off the regular price. Now why couldn't I have thought about that?