Need help on Country House Rehab

Started by Schifference, July 08, 2017, 03:31:07 PM

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Schifference

Hello,
I purchased a property in South Carolina. The home is pretty large but needs lots of work. I was hoping for some framing suggestions. The problem is that the home is not your traditional 2 story. It is approximately 48 feet long and 32 feet wide not counting any porches. The home sits on a concrete block supported crawlspace. A peak into the crawlspace reveals that the beams are sporadically supported by rocks. The flooring is rotted in places. The floor joists are 24 on center. I am expecting to pour new piers, put in new beams & floor joists. I was thinking of putting new beams running the 48 foot direction at 8, 16, and 24 feet on top of piers positioned 6 foot on center. I don't think fixing the first floor would be that difficult.
The issue I am having problems with is the unfinished second floor. The gable roof runs the 48 foot direction and has very long rafters supported by purlins. There is a large dormer on the front of the house that is on the other side of the Purlins. There is no quality first floor ceiling/second floor floor joists. What is there is only to hold up the first floor ceiling.
This house is referred to as a bungalow by some people.
The second floor has a huge usable space with plenty of ceiling height.
The original carrying wall that supports the purlins is 13 feet in from the front and back of the house. If I came in 12 feet from the front and back and built new carrying walls on the first floor the second floor would remain 32 wide but would go from 48 feet deep to 24. At 24 we still have not gotten to the existing dormer and have full ceiling height. The area could easily be 30 x 32 or larger.
Since the outside walls will remain intact, what would be my best way to support the second floor floor joists? As mentioned carrying walls can be built 12 feet from the front and back leaving a 24 foot span. If I put a carrying wall at 12 feet it will drastically limit the size and shape of my first floor rooms.
Hopefully someone can understand what I am trying to describe. Unfortunately the other day photobucket changed their policies regarding posting to third party websites so at this moment I have no way to post any pictures.
Thanks!

Don_P

I'm not following well enough to give advice and this sounds like a job for a local engineer. You can install beams and posts from foundation up through the 1st floor to support the second but you'll need to make sure you support any laps in the framing members. I'd also check member dimensions, don't be surprised if joists and rafters are undersized from the sounds of things.


ChugiakTinkerer

Welcome to the forum!  I'm sorry to hear you're caught in the Photobucket image ransom fiasco.  Alternative sites are out there, I use Imgur for example.  I have no clue what the long term viability of that company is for third party hosting but it works well at the moment.

I find it challenging enough to come up with a proper building solution for my wants and needs when I'm working new construction.  Trying to do it all around an existing structure raises the complexity significantly.  I'd suggest thinking about it from the roof down.  Start with what you want out of the second floor and determine what it will take to support that.  Then extend the support down to the first floor, and then to the foundation.

If you haven't yet, it might be a good idea to contact your local building inspector and get a sense for how creative you and your contractors can be.  The house you're describing sounds so unorthodox compared to modern building practices that fixing it according to code could end up costing more than a new house.
My cabin build thread: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story

John Raabe

Sorry to hear you have to experience the Photo Bucket curse. It has hit the forum pretty hard but not all images have been dropped.

There were a couple of suggestions ahead of this that would be good to review.
QUESTION: Has the property sale closed? If so, read your contract carefully as the house may be legally unfit and unsafe. If it hasn't closed, have the place checked carefully by a house inspector or structural engineer before you close. 
None of us are as smart as all of us.

Schifference

I plan to fix the home myself. I am not at the property now. House is bought and paid for so there is no turning back now.
Here is a link to a few pictures I took when I was down there. Thanks for the Imgur info!
http://imgur.com/gallery/SDZhL


Don_P

The roof has "braced rafter" construction. Those angled posts in the attic are over a load bearing wall below and run up to a flatways purlin that helps support the rafters. The boards on top of the rafters are the board sheathing that the decorative "California" dormer rests on. The bracing and load path down through the house needs to remain unless you redesign the support for those rafters. The ceiling joists are undersized for a floor, they could be sistered to or replaced by I joists that extend to the outer walls. Basically up there I would pop the top and replace everything from the wall tops up to give enough insulation room and to get rid of the rafter braces. The main floor looks shot so replace the joists and floor there. It looks like it was originally a shingled house that was covered by asbestos siding... there's our asbestos for the day.  Basically I would do minor mods to a house like this, basically upkeep and paint, enjoy it as it is for what it is... or scrape it. To do what you would like to do is going to cost quite a bit and you'll have major work on a house that needs a new foundation, upgraded everything and abatement, it isn't there.

Schifference

Here is a pretty rough house that I fixed up a few years ago.
http://imgur.com/gallery/PCCAI

azgreg

I'm not sure rough is the right word.  ;D

Schifference

Quote from: azgreg on July 11, 2017, 12:07:17 PM
I'm not sure rough is the right word.  ;D

What would you call it?
The reason I posted was for comparison sake the one I already did with the one I need to do.
Did you see the pictures of it finished?


azgreg

Quote from: Schifference on July 11, 2017, 12:33:23 PM
What would you call it?
The reason I posted was for comparison sake the one I already did with the one I need to do.
Did you see the pictures of it finished?

Don't get me wrong. I think you did a great job with the place. I don't know what word I would use but it was definitely rougher than rough.  ;)

Don_P

You definitely qualify as "ain't scared"  :D
Another thought would be to get a local truss plant to make what are called attic trusses or bonus room trusses. You would remove the roof down to the wall tops and these would swing in complete with floor and roof framing already built. You can specify floor loading and rafter depth. They can be designed as clear spanning from wall to wall. The room upstairs inside the truss is part of the frame and would include an 8' ceiling. At this size the main truss would run up to that level then an upper triangle would sit on top to complete the roof. They would double or triple the trusses along each side of the dormer to support headers that would carry that section which they could either supply or you can field frame that. It would be a fast and relatively economical way to reframe that section strong enough and with adequate insulation room in the roof.

Schifference

Quote from: Don_P on July 11, 2017, 08:27:38 PM
You definitely qualify as "ain't scared"  :D
Another thought would be to get a local truss plant to make what are called attic trusses or bonus room trusses. You would remove the roof down to the wall tops and these would swing in complete with floor and roof framing already built. You can specify floor loading and rafter depth. They can be designed as clear spanning from wall to wall. The room upstairs inside the truss is part of the frame and would include an 8' ceiling. At this size the main truss would run up to that level then an upper triangle would sit on top to complete the roof. They would double or triple the trusses along each side of the dormer to support headers that would carry that section which they could either supply or you can field frame that. It would be a fast and relatively economical way to reframe that section strong enough and with adequate insulation room in the roof.
Don,
From what little you know about the house, would it be your conclusion that the second floor was never designed or expected to be living space at any time and the dormer and side windows were merely cosmetic? I know that many homes were built with unfinished space that could have been finished had the original person wanted to spend more money at that time. The future finish was simply finish work with electric, plumbing, insulation and finish walls.

I cannot afford to hire out contractors or subs. I will probably be doing most or all the work by myself as i did on that brown house.

If the second floor requires new roof design and rafters and ....... that would probably be more than I want to do and spend. As mentioned earlier, I don't think that making the first floor sound is a big problem. There is no frost line so footings, piers, and beams would be relatively easy, just time consuming. I believe the structure is salvageable but might be too much to expect a finished 2 story with 3,000 square feet. The first floor alone has around 1500. I would think the roof is fine with the purlins and some ceiling joists here and there to hold up drywall wouldn't be too difficult.

If I am going to salvage the home, I want to do so in a manner that any work, effort, or money improves the property and makes it more livable. The goal was to have this be a paid for retirement home. I would think that with the proper supports in the crawlspace and strategically placed carrying walls, I could have a good size first floor and maybe only finish an easily span-able second floor with a couple of rooms on second floor instead of trying to finish the whole thing.  finish right down the center and make a finished area approximately 16 x 32.

Thanks for your input!


Don_P

Yes that was only designed as an uninhabitable attic space, the dormer was for show outside. I lived in a similar house in Raleigh, NC that was built on a pier and curtain wall foundation. I toyed with the idea of working on a second floor but there wasn't the bang for the buck, the entire structure up there would need to be redone.

If you can trace load paths down through the main floor to the foundation sufficient to support a floor and the roof support needed then an area could be made habitable. you can then either furr down the rafters to pic up insulation room or use sprayfoam. You will need good insulation up there to make it tolerable in the summer. I imagine right now you are seeing temps in excess of 130 in that attic space down there.

Schifference

#13
Quote from: Don_P on July 12, 2017, 06:05:19 AM
Yes that was only designed as an uninhabitable attic space, the dormer was for show outside. I lived in a similar house in Raleigh, NC that was built on a pier and curtain wall foundation. I toyed with the idea of working on a second floor but there wasn't the bang for the buck, the entire structure up there would need to be redone.

If you can trace load paths down through the main floor to the foundation sufficient to support a floor and the roof support needed then an area could be made habitable. you can then either furr down the rafters to pic up insulation room or use sprayfoam. You will need good insulation up there to make it tolerable in the summer. I imagine right now you are seeing temps in excess of 130 in that attic space down there.

The reason I quote is so that you hopefully know that I have posted something new. In the future Unless necessary I will not quote, I will just post. It appears you have taken interest in my project. Thank you! Please keep visiting this because I am trying to come up with a plan. I will be going there after labor day for a few months and need some kind of game plan.

Here is a possible layout for first floor. My feeling is that if all carrying walls are less than 16' I should be able to span that distance on second floor easily. I thought that if I kept a 4 foot hallway down the center of the house I could carry weight on both sides of hallway and carry the 4 foot load from the hallway walls.

Please take a look. My wife has not seen this but the goal is to know where the load bearing walls would need to be and determine where the piers would need to go.

With this layout I would think I could carry the second floor from pretty much either direction and the load of the roof.

Thanks for your input!

Edit: I incorporated a no hallway pier and beam layout that would add more flexibility. As mentioned the purlins were at 13 feet or so from front and back. I would think I could move them a couple of feet in toward the ridge. I could add a knee wall out farther that would be supported by floor? Obviously pier and beam sizes would need to be determined.

http://imgur.com/a/hT2BK


ChugiakTinkerer

I share azgreg's opinion that "rough" is an understatement for describing your previous project.   :D

In case you don't yet have the link, HERE is the 2015 international residential code, the source for most counties and states building requirements.  If you want to have a 16' span for the second floor, there are a few ways to accomplish it.  In Chapter 5, Table R502.3.1(2) gives joist spans for a living space.  For a purely sleeping area you could use the previous table.  I tend to err on the side of caution and would plan on a 40 psf live load upstairs.  A 2x10 joist on 12" center will work for #2 grade wood.  If you went to 2x12 you could go to 16" spacing.  From a purely economic standpoint that will probably be the least expensive option, depending on your local lumber prices.

Have you thought about how to support the rafters?  The line of braces runs perpendicular to the bearing walls in your drawing, correct?  You could support the rafters with a girder/header, that is in turn supported by load bearing second floor walls, that you can trace down to the first floor.  Would probably have to be engineered though, it looks like the longest span for a header made of four 2x12 is only 14'.

EDIT to add:  Never mind, I think I now have the roof layout correct in my mind.  Looking at your floor plan, let's call the top of the page North.  The roof peak runs north-south, with eaves on the west and east side.  The gables are on the north and south walls.  Assuming that's correct then you are probably planning to extend your bearing walls up into the second floor to act as the braces for supporting the rafters. 
My cabin build thread: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story

Don_P

I would pick one hallway wall to be load bearing and align the piers under that wall. The second floor will span from outer wall to that bearing wall. You can accomplish those spans using I joists rather than dimensional lumber.

The problem now is supporting the rafters, that should not be attempted from a point in the span of the proposed second floor without an engineers blessing. Refer to figure R802.5.1 in th link CT posted. A point load at midspan creates double the bending moment compared to the same load uniformly distributed along the joist. One way would be to use LVL's of the same depth as the floor joists spaced at appropriate intervals throughout the second floor and put posts from those lvl's up to an appropriately sized beam purlins that support the roof. The remaing portions of the kneewall can be framed from the floor to the purlin beam with the opsts incorporated within those walls.. The supplier of the I joists and LVL's can size those members for you.

Schifference

I have a new proposed idea for piers, beams, and carrying walls.
Let me know what you think.
Thanks.
http://imgur.com/a/hT2BK

ChugiakTinkerer

Let me preface this comment with the caveat that I'm just a guy on the internet that likes to opine on other people's ideas.  I have no particular expertise and have sent myself down a lot of rabbit trails trying to make sense of the IRC for my application.

In my first comment I suggested starting with the roof and working your way down.  If you want to make the second floor a livable space that seems like the best way to do it.  One notion I am throwing out for consideration is that you may not need to replace the ceiling joists where they aren't supporting a floor.  That may turn out to be pointless, but depending on what you want from the upstairs you may be able to achieve that by just adding floor joists where there will be a living space. Also keep in mind that you don't necessarily have to have symmetry in the layout of your load bearing walls.  You just need to ensure that any span for joists or rafters is small enough to accommodate the desired depth of the joist or rafter.  Finally, you might contemplate a strategically placed support post instead of a wall.  These can be dressed up architecturally so that they aren't so obvious, if your floor plan can allow.
My cabin build thread: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story

Schifference

Chugiak,

I agree completely with you!
The second floor has joists that run in both directions. The first 13 feet from the front and back of the house the joists run parallel to the roof rafters and tie into them. At the 13 foot carrying wall, the joists run perpendicular to the other joists. By leaving a carrying wall at 13 feet, I can support the front and back first floor ceiling/second floor floor. I intend on removing the purlins and running vertical walls at that point. I will utilize the space behind that wall for bathroom and or closets. I will try to open up the dormer. If I need to I can add some joists from the front and or back of the house to my carrying wall 13 feet away. The second floor will be supported and have an area between the new outside supporting walls of 21x31 to be divided up in near future. Closet space and bathrooms will go beyond the 21x31.

With the double wall that runs down the center of the house we have a layout for the first floor. I would imagine that with that layout the spans are reasonable. What do you think?

Link to proposed first floor http://imgur.com/a/hT2BK


Don_P

I'm not following your description of the second floor well enough to comment, however, in the end there needs to be a tie across from the foot of one rafter, across the building to the foot of its' opposing rafter. You are framing a triangle with 2 rafter chords tied together by a ceiling/floor chord.