Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK

Started by ajbremer, May 09, 2011, 04:01:01 AM

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Don_P

As long as it matches side to side, in other words as long as the ridge is in the exact center... that is an excellent way. A scribe is very often the best way to get an exact fit when fitting complex parts.  [cool].

ajbremer

Monday Night - May 21st, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

I have some of the StrongTie LU28 joist hangers and I would like to use them up there at my rafter to ridge beam connection but they are not sloped. The real nice sloped hanger is about $7.00 more for each one. What if I made a small wooden block to fit into the bottom of the LU28 joist hanger and it had a 45 degree angle on it like I need. It would be trapped into position and it also would seat the rafter and have more connection. The block would be 2" x 1-1/2" with a 45 degree angle. It's just a thought. I think I'll try the idea out in the morning.

Here's the LU28 that I'm talking about:

http://www.amazon.com/Simpson-Strong-Tie-Mount-Joist-Hanger/dp/B003PZJLSO
Click here to see our 20x30 and here to see our 14x24.


ajbremer

#527
Tuesday Night - May 22nd, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Got 3 rafters up today, each one got a little better as I went. I'm using that LU28 joist hanger with some wooden 45 degree blocks that I made. These blocks seat the rafter in the bottom of the joist hanger instead of only the bottom outer edge of the joist hanger touching the rafter. I also toe-nailed 2 16d nails, one on each side above the hanger. I also put a third nail in at the very top of the rafter on the 1-1/2" width and into the ridge. I'm pretty sure it all is of sufficient hold.

At the birds mouth/seat cut I put 1 StrongTie H2.5 tie along with a 16d toe-nailed on each side and into the top plate.

Here's a picture of the blocks:



Now I lay the block in the bottom of the StrongTie LU28 and it gets trapped in there once the rafter is in place:
(Pic coming soon)

(Pic coming soon)


And lastly, a little picture of the drawing of how I make my rafter cuts on those 2x8x16 footers:
(Pic coming soon)

Click here to see our 20x30 and here to see our 14x24.

Redoverfarm

AL as a poor man solution to the rafter tie at the bottom plate I would cut blocks to fit between the rafters.  Securely fasten to the top plate I could then nail the rafters to those without splitting the rafters by toenailing.  Normally I did toe nail but just added the block for extra insurance.  I just used scrap 2X material so there was no extra cost involved just time and a few more 16d's.

Don_P

I really can't say on the hanger, you'll have to satisfy yourself. I like Redover's block solution, we worked a problem on the inspector's forum and proved blocking works just fine by using the NDS math. But they would still reject it. Mr Simpson was a mighty good marketer... and provides a good product. If you go to the awc.org connections calculator it uses the NDS math and also includes steel sheet and plate design values when nailed to wood. A block of wood or a folded angle of galvanized sheet metal with a nail into a piece of wood has an allowable design value.

Don't forget to string the ridge and keep checking it for straight. Working in opposite pairs generally keeps it straight.

Your thought about a donate button seems like a neat idea but I don't know. I do think it is great that you see that there is a value in all this chatting.  I've been wrestling with how to earn an income in the future, I'll admit I spend waay too much time here and have considered a similar model to this site, well, and Walmart greeter,  building better mousetraps and several other things. Money can sure bring unintended consequences into play though. To make a point over the din I've hit you hard square between the eyes a time or two. Do I pull that punch to earn cash. How would I have answered the joist hanger question if there was financial incentive to tell you what you wanted to hear. There are some very slick talkers out there, does that then become incentive for others to blow smoke up your skirt to take your money.  Most folks here have a tough enough time sorting the wheat from the chaff, I don't think that'll make it easier. If there is money available though, I know some really smart people. One of them walked through a house with me and showed me enough waste in my design to have more than covered his fee and his would have been a better building. Anyway, random thoughts, and at least for myself, I do appreciate your kind thoughts.


duncanshannon

Quote from: ajbremer on May 21, 2012, 07:24:06 AM
I kind of think that everybody here on this forum ought to have a donate button in their profile so that they can be compensated for their input, information, and kindness...just a thought.

I agree.  One easy thing to do would be to have people maintain a 'wish list' on amazon... and then people can order things off that wishlist as gifts.  (http://www.amazon.com/wishlist)

I imagine we will need to resort to peer pressure to convince people to create and 'advertise' their wish list however...

Common.. you know who you are and you know you should do it! We would appreciate it if you did... we feel indebted to you and this would be a way for us to contribute in our own way!
Home: Minneapolis, MN area.  Land: (no cabin yet) Spooner, WI area.  Plan: 20x34 1 1/2 Story. Experience Level: n00b. 
Build Thread: http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=10784.0

ajbremer

I went to amazon's wishlist and it's really pretty cool. I will investigate it more later...great info!
Click here to see our 20x30 and here to see our 14x24.

MountainDon

On a method to donate as a way of saying thanks.... I agree with much of what Don_P stated above in the last paragraph of post# 529.   At times it is hard enough to have great thoughts and ideas given a proper look by some folks. Tossing the possibility of remuneration into the free advice raises the issue of ethics. How does the neophyte builder tell good advice from bad? I'm sure some folks will thank someone who agrees with their own way of thinking.

Myself, I believe that a pat on the back may be the best approach. I believe I have offered a few bits of good advice here and there. Until this donation thing was mentioned it never occurred to me that anyone owed me anything. It would be cool to receive something more tangible than a verbal pat on the back but I have reservations about the process of giving tangible rewards for advice in a public forum.

As an aside, but connected to the subject.... It is possible to go find sites on the internet that will pay you for taking the time to go and post positive reviews on some web sites that are selling a product or a service. Not cool.

Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.

Redoverfarm

You mean I am not getting paid for this.   ;).  I'm like Mt.Don in that I expect nothing in return but an occassional thanks. One thing nice is that if the information received by one individual is not quite correct there are other eyes which soon remedy the error or offer other alternatives.  We are here because of our choice to be here in hopes that me may contribute in some small way to make things easier, more efficent, last longer, to be built stronger and learn.  I for one sometimes feel that I probably have not held up my end of the bargin in return for the information I have received.

For those who do not agree I will forward my mailing address in a PM message.  Master Card, Visa, American Express and Checks accepted. ;D

Al sorry for hyjacking your thread.  But you started it.   d*


JavaMan

Quote from: Redoverfarm on May 24, 2012, 09:36:30 PM
You mean I am not getting paid for this.   ;).  I'm like Mt.Don in that I expect nothing in return but an occassional thanks. One thing nice is that if the information received by one individual is not quite correct there are other eyes which soon remedy the error or offer other alternatives.  We are here because of our choice to be here in hopes that me may contribute in some small way to make things easier, more efficent, last longer, to be built stronger and learn.  I for one sometimes feel that I probably have not held up my end of the bargin in return for the information I have received.

For those who do not agree I will forward my mailing address in a PM message.  Master Card, Visa, American Express and Checks accepted. ;D

Al sorry for hyjacking your thread.  But you started it.   d*

I donate to you but... that smiling pig freaks me out! :o

Just funnin' ...I too feel like I'm not holding up my end with sufficient contributions in my or other's threads ... well, other than how NOT to do it d*

MountainDon

On the other hand there could be times when someone has been of invaluable assistance and it's like they should pay somebody for the help received. I guess I can see both ways. How to be fair is a question to be answered.

Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.

Don_P

Quotewhen someone has been of invaluable assistance and it's like they should pay somebody for the help received
Darn I hate when a good sentence goes bad  ;D

But to the meaning, I'm thinking of the guy who provides this site  ;)
There is a very good 3 day class on the latest version of the NDS coming up in Oct at VA Tech, it is sometimes repeated at WA State. Pretty spendy, mentally exhausting, but very good. Group effort  :)

On a wish list I realized mine is reference books. But if you all bought yourself books the good effect is probably the same. The tide lifts all ships.

JavaMan

Sorry Al, but I want to add one additional thought, since Don brought up our host here.  He does have links to books for purchase on the main site, and I'm guessing that there is a commission he gets paid for that (as I participate in that program over on my sites), so one way to support the place is to purchase books you might need through those links.

I'll have to look to make certain of the policy, but I think Amazon pays a commission on whatever you purchase from their site if you found your way there through a link on another site.  Which would mean you don't have to purchase the books actually listed (I'm sure some of use have a few of those already  :)), but others you might want/need.

ajbremer

#538
Saturday Morining - May 26th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Thanks for the post everyone!

Javaman, I like your reminder about the books - I love those building books. I've got "The Visual Handbook of Building and Remodeling", that "Framing by Wagner" book, and the "Graphic Guide to Frame Construction by Rob Thallon". Soon it'll be time for me to buy the books about plumbing and electrical installation...whoopee!

I've got more than half of my rafters up now! I'm leaving the end ones till last because I'm studying hard about how to do them. The "Graphic Guide to Frame Construction" has some pretty good illustrations and text showing how to do this, about 4 pages dedicated to barge rafters and overhang and exposed rakes. "House Framing by Wagner" has 2 pages dedicated to the explanation of these barge rafters. All explanations show a ridge board or ridge beam going beyond the buildings end - I flunked the test in planning for this.

Help Needed!

One of the situations I have to work with is that my ridge beam stops at the building length. I realize now that I should have ordered my beam to be 34' instead of the buildings length - 30' so that the beam would stick out beyond the building length 2' at each end for the connection of my barge rafters. Does this mean that I shouldn't try for a barge rafter because of the lack of support by the beam? Or, can I make a bracket of some kind near the beams end to help support the top of the barge rafters? The fascia, lookouts, and roof sheathing alone won't be enough to support the barge rafters without the help of a top connection will they?

Is it an odd thing not to use barge rafters? How far can my roof sheathing go beyond the end rafters if I don't go with a barge rafter? (I would rather do all I can to have those barge rafters)
Click here to see our 20x30 and here to see our 14x24.


Don_P

With a ridgeboard I run the ridge out, notch the underside to get it up and hidden in the soffit and use it to attach the fly rafter to (barge rafter and verge rafter are 2 other names for this member). But when I have a thick ridgebeam this becomes a more of a problem, I stop it at the wall. The lookouts are each a cantilevered beam extending out to attach the fly to. Yes we can have another beam at the very top, the ridge, but we don't normally have to have it. I put a lookout very near the peak on each side.

The rafters and walls the lookouts are attached to need to be plumbed, stringlined and braced rigidly before attaching the lookouts. I normally rough cut the lookouts a few inches long, assemble the parts to the inboard rafters and leave the outboard ends wild. At that point I chalk a line across the lookouts' outboard end, climb the ladder and cut them all to that straight chalkine. Not comfortable or particularly safe but a very straight line of lookouts for the fly to then nail to. IF you hold all the parts in perfect alignment during assembly this is not neccessary.

I'll stop there for now, post a sketch or describe how you plan to frame this area if you need more help.

ajbremer

That's great information and very helpful Don_P, I am relieved...a little bit.

My next question and area of concern is my front and back porch and porch roof. The most important thing to me now is for me to get my roof on BUT, I've seen builds here where porch roofs are attached to the rafters at the top plate and to sheath the main roof totally would mean that you either can't do that or you have to tear off the sheets to put the porch roof on at a later time.

I remember seeing one build here where the person sheathed his roof but stopped at the last row of sheets at the bottom so that he could later attach the porch roof rafters. Even though the sheets didn't go all the way to the main roofs bottom, he did felt paper it all the way down. Then he just lifted up the felt paper when it was time to do the porch roof rafters. That way, at least the rain is kept out of the build. I guess I could do it that way OR...is there any way to totally complete the main roof and then use a rim board attached just under the top plates and go down with the porch rafters from there?
Click here to see our 20x30 and here to see our 14x24.

Don_P

On the house we're working on now I had to leave part of the sheathing off for a couple of months while we brought the porches up and got them tied in. I used the synthetic "tarpaper" which is 4' wide and much more tear resistant. I covered those exposed areas with the synthetic and it pretty much held up. I think I repaired it a time or two when we had bad winds but it did a good job.

There are three ways to tie the porch roof in that come to mind.
1) Set the porch rafters on the top plate of the wall, minimal notch up top on the wall to avoid that splitting potential, a bevelled ledger strip under the rafters nailed to the wall would help support that lower edge.
2) Run the sheathing down to the rafter ends and lay a horizontal ledger flat on the roof that the porch rafters rest on and are attached to.
3) Use Ledgerlock or similar structural screws to attach a horizontal ledger to the wall that the porch rafters attach to. ( in my '92 copy of Thallon's this is shown on pg 125 detail B)

If our pages are the same flip to pg 123, detail C shows the blocking method I was describing earlier.

Draw a section view of the house as built and figure out where the rafters need to intersect with respect to the outer carry beam, the porch pitch and the main roof.

On the lookouts, I neglected to mention earlier that I usually set them 2' on center and take pains to figure out where the sheathing will land so that the edges are supported by the lookouts and can be nailed to them. The greatest uplift force on a roof is the overhangs, especially the lower corners of the overhangs, nail off well. I was in a class with room full of archies and engineers and they were commenting that this area is the first to come apart in wind and carpenters usually do their poorest nailing out on that corner. It was a mystery to them till I explained that normally in production framing I was hanging on to the top of the sheet with one hand while leaning down and shooting off the perimeter, all the while staring at the ground. It draws real easy on paper. Your site is a dream, it looks like an easy one to scaffold or ladder from. Now that I've admitted to that foolishness, we've come a long way. If you haven't picked one up there is usually a bucket of fall arrest gear in the safety stuff aisle at Lowes. 

ajbremer

Sunday Morning - May 27th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Thank you again Don_P.

I looked into my copy of "Graphic Guide to Frame Construction" by Rob Thallon and tried to find the details you mentioned but couldn't find them yet. My copy is the third edition, revised, updated, and dated 2008. I know those details must be in there, I guess I just don't know what I'm looking at. I didn't notice a lot if anything about a porch roof but I could have skipped over it. I will look again asap.
Click here to see our 20x30 and here to see our 14x24.

ajbremer

#543
Sunday Morning - May 27th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Ok, this is a long post - sorry, I'm just trying to be informative.

I almost got all of the common rafters up now. Once they are done, I will attach my end rafters and then cut out notches in them for the lookouts to meet the fly.

I will now talk about my successes, failures, concerns, and hardships...about me cutting up and putting up my rafters.

Cutting and trying to make perfect rafter connections, especially at the top ridge beam, was frustrating and time consuming for me but I'm confident about the connections, satisfied about the job I've done so far on the rafters, and hopefully getting better with each one I do.

First let me mention something about my ridge beam(s). As you may know, I've screwed and nailed 2 - 1 3/4" x 11 7/8" 1.9E Microllam® LVL beams together that fit into 3 posts at the top of my build. I had the end ridge beam posts built and up first and then I built my middle ridge beam post and put it up.

Well, when I (we) lifted those 2 heavy beams up and into their yokes, the bottom of that middle post was not high enough to reach the bottom of the beam, (my measurement was off) it was about 1/2" to low so I shimmed it by inserting a piece of my Advantech flooring into it - the thickness was just right. Before I shimmed that beam, I could tell how strong they are because it would take a lot of weight to make the beam begin to deflect there in the middle.

The beam was relatively straight when I string lined the edge of the beam after installation - it's perfect till just a little after halfway and then it goes north almost 1/4" and then back to perfect a few feet before the end. I figured that wasn't bad and left it alone. After all, those beams together like that are really strong and trying to push them straight just by making the rafter cut a little longer and then nailing and pushing the beam out wouldn't work. I would have had to put a strap or chain around the beam and use a come along or something. Plus, there was nothing that high to attach the strap or chain to. All that to say, my top roof line might be off around 1/4" or so at one point and that causes the rafters to not be exactly the same length so I ended up cutting and putting up rafters one at a time. In the perfect world I guess they gang cut all the rafters and then just slap them up there.

Some of my rafters at the very top differ in height as much as 1/4" or so. I thought that was ok also and didn't tear any of them down...well, yes I did. I had a couple of them nailed at the birds mouth cut and when I would climb up to the top to check them they were way to high or the angle was off, or the bottom had the gap and just the top was touching so I tore them down and would cut them again. I know one thing, when I eyeball down my rafters, they do look good and lined up!

Some times I would cut a rafter, put it up, and it would be just perfect, picture worthy for a close up shot that I was excited about posting here. Then I would put my hanger in place and nail it to the beam first, still perfect. But when I would nail the 16d's into the angled sides of the hanger it would cause a small gap to appear, only about a 1/16" or so but still...frustrating! The beam's not moving because I string lined it again - it must be the joist is flexing? So then, when I look straight down between the beam and rafter and see daylight and it's only touching at one particular spot - is that a bad thing, have you seen worse?

Now, let me mention something about how I cut the angle in the rafters at the top. I've only been using a circular saw this whole build. Someone told me that a chop saw is the best way to cut that angle? Anyway, sometimes when I would cut that angle, it wouldn't be straight, maybe a touch off here and there. So I ended up clamping a piece of metal to the rafter and used it as a guide for the edge of my saw. It was time consuming but it did make a perfectly straight cut. The piece of metal that I used was an old large hand saw, it looked pretty weird but it worked.

Here's pics of what I have so far:









Click here to see our 20x30 and here to see our 14x24.

Don_P

The roof looks good, the cuts and ridge seem fine. It is set up for a non vented roof or a wide vented ridgecap.
If you can cut your lookout notches on the ground it is much easier than in the air.
I don't really understand the bottoms and porch yet.
Do use plywood clips when you sheath the roof, they aren't fun but are well worth the effort. I much prefer 5/8 (19/32") sheathing.
I've never used a chopsaw to cut rafters, I guess a sliding compound saw would do it but as wood gets bigger it is easier to bring the tool to the work than the work to the tool. When you get to log or timberframing it becomes about impossible to bring the work to the tool, but rafters are right on up there. High production framers do gang cut. I make a pattern and cut one by one. They are fast, I inspect, slip and slide and remove defects that I can if the length allows

It is nice to build perfect but it isn't a watch. All errors accumulate to the roof. If there are offending humps and bumps I'll powerplane the high spots. Sliding a long straight board up and down across the rafters will show high spots, again it isn't a watch so don't drive yourself crazy. It will move some when it dries more. In ridgebeam construction the rafter is hanging from the ridge so the fit up there is not pushing against the rafter/ridge connection. It is hanging off the beam from the hanger.

The shim is ok, been there. I neglected to tell you to lower the tops of the yokes, you'll need to nip those protruding corners so the sheathing can lay down flat. The frustrating gap is probably the nail going through the lumber easily but not easy into the lvl, the point probably drifted into a place that doesn't let it tighten up. My first top nail is usually from the top edge of the rafter into the ridge if I'm pushing or toed from the top edge of the  ridge down to the rafter if pulling it over to the rafter. It is hard to move that beam around without the proverbial skyhook. That snake is very minor, you done good. We have those discussion and I'll holler up, darlin, you're thirty feet in the air.

I suspected our book editions might not line up, nothing major. Mine doesn't get into porch roofs, that detail was a shed roof detail that would work.


ajbremer

#545
Monday Morning - May 28th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Happy Memorial Day!

I took a couple of good pics out there this morning and am taking a lunch break now. I also took a neat video of a lot of the things I've been doing up there lately.

Here's a pic of how I got a crooked board to get straight enough to nail the hanger to it:



And here is how I made a guide for my little saw to get a real good straight cut. I clamped down an old hand saw using 2 c-clamps and the saw follows the guide. I bought that cheap saw at a yard sale years ago never realizing that it would build my house, I think I paid $10.00 for it. I also don't think it's even a full size saw, I think it the next step down.



I'm going to be uploading a video of how I cut and hang my rafters real soon...stay tuned.
Click here to see our 20x30 and here to see our 14x24.

CjAl

it looks good Al. they call it rough framing for a reason. lol you will never see that little bit of snake in that beam once the sheathing is on, roofed and a ridge cap put on.

i cut almost everything in framing with a circular saw. i use a larger speed square as a guide and cut right along it. just make sure if you have a gap at the beam, its on the top of the rafter not the bottom.

i plan to block in my rafters not use the brackets. guess old habits die hard. i hate all them angled nailings for the reson you discovered. nail guns greatly reduce the board moving around when you toe nail but kinda hard to air nail brackets (altho i do it)

ajbremer

Monday Afternoon (Memorial Day) May 28th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Thanks CjAl...cool advise!

Here's a video I took and uploaded to youtube today:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLVKP1PTtWw
Click here to see our 20x30 and here to see our 14x24.

ColchesterCabin

AJ that looks cool, Glad you seemed to have got used to the heights. For my build I am using engineered rafters but am so not looking forward to the overhangs. I really enjoyed your videos and following your build so far.
Visit my thread would love to have your input http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=12139.0
Feel free to visit my Photobuckect album of all pictures related to this build http://s1156.photobucket.com/albums/p566/ColchesterCabin/

JavaMan

Geez, Al ... I probably shouldn't have watched that video since I'm going to be climbing around my roofing project in a couple weeks... and I have this irrational fear of heights ( well, maybe it's not so irrational  ???)

Good video, tho.  I'll have to watch it on a a machine with sound later  d*