Plumbers do NOT get paid enough!

[MushCreek]

Today had to be my worst plumbing day ever. Now, I have a perfect record of having never installed a sink without at least one leak in the drain and trap assembly. I've gone for years with a bucket under the sink, having finally given up on ever getting the crappy parts to fit together in a waterproof fashion. Today, however, was truly amazing.

I'm trying to quickly put together a basement bathroom, as the unfinished upstairs has already dropped below freezing this year. I ran the PEX tubing, and crimped stop valves on for water supplies. I wrestled and fussed trying to get one of the flexible supply lines on for some time, until I looked closely at the valve. There were no threads! There was just a hint- a scratch, really of a thread, but not enough to screw something on to. Now, the home improvement store is a pretty good ride, so I stole one off of an unused area to get by. Problem one solved.

Next, I installed a cheap vanity and top. I've learned to jam plumber's putty into the various trap fittings to thwart leaks. But today, there was a new wrinkle. The sink kept leaking at the bottom, where the pop-up assembly comes through. This thing has a huge squishy washer, so it shouldn't leak, but it was actually a stream coming out. I tried all sorts of things, and finally tightened it so much that the plastic pop-up broke, thus ending my frustration temporarily. I moved on.....

I had pipes roughed into the concrete slab, so I went to install a toilet. I cut the 4" PVC flush (pun intended) with the floor, and tried to fit a 3-4 flange to it. These are supposedly designed to fit either 3" or 4" PVC. It would NOT go. I finally measured the offending components. The flange was 1/16" bigger than the ID of the pipe! With the pipe encased in concrete, there was no way that would go together. I'm sure you can imagine the fun that would ensue if I managed to glue the flange half-way on. Luckily, I remembered something from my work that might help me. Bear with me for a brief sidebar. We molded plastic parts, and had trouble molding some very thick PVC parts. Still soft coming out of the mold, they would warp and otherwise distort. As an experiment, I tried heating some back up, and then letting them cool on a flat aluminum plate. It worked perfectly- except they shrank quite a bit. We later built a cooling fixture to keep them flat as they came out of the mold. Remembering this, I stuck the toilet flange in a 350 oven until it got a bit soft, and then set it on a flat plate to cool. It worked! The flange shrank enough to fit. Problem 3 solved.

Problem 2 is still in limbo. After buying another pop-up assembly, and smoothing the bottom edge for a better seal, the thing still leaks like crazy. Upon very close observation, the water is actually running THROUGH the sink casting itself. It looks very porous in one area. Now I have to drive down to the home improvement store (again) and exchange the defective vanity. If the new one leaks, I'll probably be featured on the evening news!

What do professional plumbers do about stuff like this? I've burned through nearly an entire day, and several gallons of gasoline trying to install two lousy fixtures. I can't wait to see what fun I'll have installing a bathtub! I'll admit I'm no pro, but none of these issues are my fault at all, other than buying cheap crap to begin with. Plumbers do NOT get paid enough......

[Carla_M]

Plumbers DO get paid enough. They have learned the ins and outs from experience. My father was an old school plumber; learned as an apprentice to a older master plumber.

You pointed out part of the real problem here yourself. "- buying cheap crap to begin with".

[MushCreek]

Yea, I was thinking about the cheap stuff. Unfortunately, that's what's available, with everything being made offshore these days. I'm just trying to throw together a low-buck basement bathroom. I suppose if I went to a professional plumbing supply store I might get components that actually work. I remember when drain components were all polished chrome over brass, and that stuff fit together well. You can still get them- for a price.

The toilet flange is name brand, American made, though. Maybe the concrete somehow compressed the pipe embedded in it?

I have this trouble with a lot of things I buy. Stuff that doesn't fit, or simply falls apart in your hand the minute you get it home. When my son was little, I used to assemble his Christmas gifts weeks ahead of time so I could go out in the shop and repair the faulty stuff, or buy the missing pieces.

[rick91351]

I 'subed' the plumbing out in the house, couple reasons:  One was because I would like to be done some time in the near future.  Two those guys just seem to know what they needed and what works.  Seems Idaho recently adopted some new code.  Father wanted to run something somewhere - son said not they could not due to code changes.  Job stopped and they argued and argued over it.  Son won out.  Inspection was a snap - the inspector was curious why they chose to run a vent as they did.  They explained their math.  He was happy, I am happy, they were happy because they got paid their part for what they had done though I do not understand the venting....  

I was kidding him one day because they had my wife go to the wholesale showroom down in Boise.  A cheap kitchen faucet was $230, Big Box Stores same looking was / is $90 on sale to $130 off the shelf.  Plumber said go buy one and we will tear it up.  I did not but he went on to explain it might look near the same on the outside but the insides are not the same and most the time the outsides though they might look it are not the same as well.  He made a great point in that do not settle for cheap stuff now and pay for failures on down the line.  I did not address the venting State Inspector wanted to know about......

Actually I was well please to have all the plumbing roughed in and out of the way in a couple days.  And I still don't understand venting!       AHH!!! the mysteries of plumbing something.  Alas I shall never master it- I fear - nor understand the preponderance of a street ell - nor the size of venting required for a kitchen sink.  Me thinks I should be able to master great depths of the ocean or the sky before I understand the complexities of plumbing code.  Especially when it is 100 miles round trip to a plumbing outlet now.                  

[MushCreek]

Yes, I went through the whole venting hell, too. It seems to be impossible to get plumbing advice. Electricians will tell you all sorts of stuff, but plumbers? Not so much. After a lot of research, I actually figured out HOW vents work, and why they have to be where they have to be. As an aside- my underground work was done by a licensed, professional plumber, passed inspection, and is WRONG. It will work, but it ain't right.

To continue the saga- I returned the defective vanity, but they did not have more in stock. I went to two other orange big box stores- same thing. I then went to a blue big box store, but they didn't have anything quite so cheap. I bought the next model up; still relatively cheap. I got it home, only to find out that the drain assembly wouldn't go together. The bottom of the sink was so thick that you could just barely get it together, but the nut on the bottom interfered with the nut on the side for the pop-up. I went to take it apart, but the upper part had bottomed out on the drain assembly, and there was no way to get a grip on it, because you couldn't really loosen it up. I cut the drain assembly apart with a hack saw, and went to get a longer one. They don't make longer ones. (Actually, they do, but they are for vessel sinks, and lack the pop-up mechanism of a normal sink). I bought an expensive, fancy, US made, expensive, chrome over polished brass, expensive drain assembly (did I mention expensive?) It wasn't any longer, but the nuts were more compact, and I could just get the thing together on the extra-thick sink. I proudly turned on the water, only to have another leak (my record is still intact). The tailpiece was thread into the body, so I took it apart and put pipe dope on it, and it actually works!

The score? Two vanities, three drain assemblies, two days, and 120 miles in four trips to the store. Now, I know it's my fault for buying cheap stuff, but it's the same cheap stuff they put in inexpensive tract homes. How they deal with it, I'll never know.

As for the tub- the drain pipe is in the wrong location; off 2" one way, and 1-1/2" the other. This was put in by a licensed, professional plumber......

Anybody got a jackhammer?

[flyingvan]

    Hope this doesn't count as an advertisement.  It's more of a recommendation----this is what got me through all the plumbing stuff to code.  It has both sets of codes (IPC and ICBO; ask what your local jurisdiction follows), clearly explains concepts, too, when wet venting is OK, AAV's, and so on.  The same company makes similar flip books for  code compliance, from nailing schedules to wiring codes. 
     I got in the habit of showing it to Rob, my inspector, prior to the next stage---I'd ask him if I followed this or that would I be good?  Took the stress out of upcoming inspections

[rick91351]

I have seen a lot of pro and con about Code Check. I have seen them and I really like them a lot.  But as with most publications the are referencing codification they are only current for so long.....

[flyingvan]

...Which is why I had my Code checker check the codes in Code Check. 

[MushCreek]

I'm past inspection now. They didn't even glance at any of it that I could tell. My inspection was for framing, rough plumbing, and rough electric. They didn't even shut off the truck. I built an entire house, wired it and plumbed it, and they were on-site for maybe 3 minutes. All my obsessing about codes was like peeing yourself in a dark suit. It gives you a warm feeling, but nobody notices. From what I see in professionally built homes around here, I'm SO glad I'm building my own house. At least I know it will be right.

As for the tub drain, my attention to detail saved my bacon. The plumber was going to use a small bucket around the drain so it wouldn't be locked in concrete. Prior to pouring, I built a good-sized form instead. Last night, I dug it out, and there is plenty of room to cut out the trap and put one in the exact right spot.