CNN Video - War With Iran Has Begun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4nqrNbjfhw&mode=related&search
What do these evil Iranians look like anyway?
http://www.iranian.com/Clips/2007/February/iran.html
Well you know American planes bombed Iraq a year before the war started...They took out all aircraft artillery.. all radar stations...They said it was because of air zone violations and that they were provoked...But we can see that was a pre-cursor to a war that was immanent...A war bush and company wanted needed and were going to wage no matter what.
You can see some of the same patterns with Iran the buildup of air craft carriers...The vague intelligence reports stating that Iran is arming terrorists...Reports of american forces already in Iran scouting it out doing recon
In many ways looks like war might be immanent with Iran also
They already have it planned and want it -- they are just trying to figure out the right combination of lies to get the American people to go for it. Along with trying to get enough cannon fodder for the two wars already in progress. Politicians familes don't do war well and the rest of John Q Publics familys are already pretty well shot up and butchered -- some have gone on extended stays 3 or more times and even the wounded are being sent back to battle I read. We must secure the oil and presence in the middle east at all costs (as long as it doesn't get up close and personal for the polly's).
The only saving grace for war with Iran is that there is an election coming up...The american public does not want or need another war...We have debt and economic hardships from the bills from Iraq and afghanistan...
If Bush goes into Iran and Bungles that up like Iraq is being Bungled...Republicans get thrown out of the white house and the Democrats will control all three levels of government....
Bush would absolutely love to get into Iran...But France, Germany, Russia, England will not support it....And despite the anti french protests when France refused to go to iraq....The world suddenly is not willing to follow america wherever it wants to go without sufficient reason...
So war with Iran would be met with resistance from much of the world....Russia is a key ally and trading partner with Iran...No UN resolution will ever get passed for a legal invasion...
Which is why we have these vague reports of Iran weapons in Iraq...And all the commotion over Iraq nuclear technology...
I thought it very interesting when the Iranian President said that he would shut down all Nuke facilities and destroy everything if the USA would do the same....
Americans think that is ridiculous...And to think the only country to ever use the nuke to kill human beings is the USA....It is okay for us to have and use Nukes...But bad for anyone else to have them...
Makes us hippocrits... America currently is upgrading all the nukes...Making them more powerful...Smaller lighter with more range and accuracy... The potency for destruction will be increased exponentially....Yet this is okay
It is funny how the language changes to support an arguement...with Saddam they needed to restore democracy after there were no WMD and no Links to 9-11...There is a democracy in Iran.....They have a government that involves the church but their leader is elected... So there is no evil Dictator to supplant...
Iran is being targeted because they are close to being self sufficient in terms of producing parts and building world class fighter jets...
For years Iran has bought whatever parts they could scrounge from American planes and copied the technology...They have designed several jets based on older american models...They upgraded the planes with the best radar in the world used russian engines to make them faster and then built them...Learning how to get the planes into production and to make them reliable....
But these jets were not groundbreaking...They were vast improvements on older platforms and would perform admirably against many jets around the world....
What Iran has gone onto now is developing their own advanced platforms...And they have started to build fighter jets of their own...They have perfected many areas and with help of the Soviets they possess the abilty to build every component needed to mass produce world class fighter jets...
This cannot be allowed....
For the last 50 years Israel has been able to destroy the Palestinians with relative ease because there was no threat to their aerial superiority...And their planes were supplied by the USA...France and Britian also supplied planes in the past in exchange for guaranteed control over the suez canal in Egypt... It is not a coincidence that Isreal took the Sinai penninsula and took control of the Suez for the British and French...
If there is a legit world class air force in the middle east region America cannot just force their will on the people there.... Any conflict that breaks out today is won with ease because they go in with planes and bomb the living shi* out of everything...And send in the troops to shoot anything still alive.... Took 5 days to sweep across all of Iraq...It would not take much longer to sweep across Iran....
If there was a legit opposition to the US air strikes...total domination in Combat would not be easy...Meaning war would be something of a stalemate
Even with US allies they sell technology that is 25 years outdated to their friends...They are selling F-16 and F-18 's to their allies...These planes are at least 25 years old... No Stealth planes are being sold
When China a few weeks ago decided to test weapons to destroy satellites it pizzed off the Americans...To think a weapon existed that could level the playing field and take away what has been a massive advantage for Americans in Warfare for decades
Nevermind that China still does not spend what the USA spends on Weapons...when China develops an advanced weapon there is negative comments about it...How it is disturbing....
Going into Iran is not just about oil...It is about preventing someone from being capable of resisting in the future...That is the true meaning of pre-emptive strike...
It is why Israel targetted all roads, bridges, oil storage facilities...Schools, hospitals, powerplants..Water and sewage facilities...Gas tsations in Lebanon...
It will take decades to rebuild the infrastructure...Meaning decades of people unable to resist Israel....Meaning decades of economic dominance of Isreal over their neighbor...
This is becomming the meaning of Pre-Emptive..Strike before someone is strong enough to resist our will...
My current "serious" book is something called War and Peace and War by Peter Turchin. I think I bought it as a used book, on the grounds that it's about due in (quality) paper, and hardbacks aren't what they once were.
He's trying to make a science of war and peace and empires. Ends up thinking that Hari Seldon was wrong (in Asimov's Foundation trilogy, some of you knew that!). That the theory can certainly help one understand, but not predict, the rise and fall of empires. Too much can add to the mix--one exceptional human, one giant hurricane, etc.
But one point he makes is that we flat out cannot understand how people can cooperate in, say, an oriental despotism. And it made (some of) us really believe that the minute we appeared, the Iraqis would join us in a cooperative building of democracy. Afghanistan too.
And no doubt, Iran.
There's a bit in the forward about the degeneration of empires that sounds like us now--rich getting richer, poor getting poorer, and the rich/elite depending on the state to prop up their wealth--can you spell Haliburton?
I'll be interested to see how he develops that idea though the book.
Rageh inside Iran - excellent video on Iran http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4679426685869498072
Received an email late Friday from a friend-of-a-friend, very reliable, that said certain American companies (one friend works for this American company) had been told to pack everything and get out as quickly as possible. Also that the USS Nimitz (aircraft carrier) had been sent to Iran, that the hotels in Bahrain were almost full occupancy due to military personnel arriving, and that war correspondents were arriving in packs. Not a word of any of this on the news. Not a peep.
There is this. It may be what your friend is referring to.
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/04/02/262/print/
And here.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/PrintArticle.php?articleId=5247
The Nimitz (and the group associated with it) leaving for the Persian Gulf has hit the news in the last day or so. For the third time in four years. Apparently it will replace the Eisenhower (group);
http://www.wistv.com/Global/story.asp?S=6314514&nav=menu36_3
The fact that attacking Iran doesn't make any sense, with a new Cent-Com head, etc. (according to that article Jonsey linked to) might not make a lot of difference.
I read somewhere several weeks ago that the 6th or 7th was dubya's plan.
Crude oil went down a bit today, I think I just read, but gas prices were still headed up as of last night ($2.67 for regular at the most expensive station around--and we don't use the fancy California--and about 6 other states--gas)
But I've heard the 6th or 7th too.
Gas in our area is @ $3.39 for regular... and what gets me is they are still using MTBE. I remember in the 90's taking care of a patient in ICU who was telling me about how bad MTBE is & that I should contact our representatives to prevent the additive to our gas supply - he had all kinds of research to back up his arguments. I thought he was a "nut" :-[ come to find out, he was right :-/
here's another link to the hostage crisis in Iran... http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article2414760.ece
This is about the translators and embassadors taken previously...That were iranian....
First it was denied that the American even plucked these people up.... Then when the 15 british were taken they refused to do a prisoner exchange...
And miracously one of the Iranian language translators has been released and 5 more are being processed for release...
And suddenly Britian and Iran are having direct bi lateral talks so the sailors will not have to face charges in Iran so they can be released.
Bush said something last week that there could be no...Quid Pro Quo...Scary when Bush tries to quote Latin :-/
Yet the sailors are all but released the Iranians taken against their will are going to be released and there will be no conflict
Although Dubbya would love it... I think the fact that Republicans lost control of the house and Senate...And the fact that the Democrats have said no more money for the war effort ... they have said that there has to be a date when a troop pull out occurs... a sate set in concrete...
This has sent a message to Bush...he does not want to hear it and vows to veto anything the democrats do...He will not have the support from his own senators on extending the war...and I think that people around bush are starting to see this....
Of Course Ships like the Nimitz get sent to the Persian Gulf just hoping that the Iranians are foolish enough to let themselves get tangled up in something.... The American ships are equipped with planes and missiles galore and are armed to the teeth...even if it was a short lived attack by the Americans...It would be devastating for Iran...They likely have enough firepower on board to wipe out a good bit of Tehran........They would love an excuse to flex their muscles and devastate Iran
Quote
#1: Of Course Ships like the Nimitz get sent to the Persian Gulf just hoping that the Iranians are foolish enough to let themselves get tangled up in something....
#2: The American ships are equipped with planes and missiles galore and are armed to the teeth...
#3: It would be devastating for Iran...
#4: They likely have enough firepower on board to wipe out a good bit of Tehran........
#5: They would love an excuse to flex their muscles and devastate Iran
#1: They are hoping their presents will lead to Iran releasing the British folks.
#2: You bet your arse they are ;D
#3: Yes it could be , should they elect to shoot at them , the ship's that is.
#4: And then some.
#5: They do what they are told , and will if told to do so.
The sailors on board are just people , like you and I , hoping for a speedy , safe , non violent solution .
The people giving the orders may not have as altruistic thoughts.
QuoteThe people giving the orders may not have as altruistic thoughts.
There -- look at that -- we agree on that, PEG. :)
Peg
I disagree that the Nimitz is there for the 15 sailors... They are going to be released and the Nimitz will not suddenly leave... Iran went bigger and badder than Britain.... The british were using a small speedy craft that is partially inflatable.
Iran got out the bigger boats and took the sailors by force....America could not be outdone...They could not have Iran show up with the biggest baddest boats in the gulf....NO....That would lessen their ability to threaten intimidate....So they sent the mother ship.....
Sending the ship was a message in itself...Telling Iran...If you decide to put boats in the Persian Gulf we will put bigger badder boats in the persian Gulf...
Basically they are trying to control the waters that are native to Iran.
The hostage situation will resolve itself now that the Iranians that were seized/Taken months ago are going to be released...
And this whole thing will be over...but the Nimitz is not going anywhere....
Not unless someone is dumb enough to tick off Dubbya somewhere else in the world.
Oh and Peg
You said that it would be devastating for Iran if they decided to Shoot at the Nimitz
Do you remember Vietnam? The policing action that was started because a US boat was fired upon... only after the war we learned it was in fact not fired upon and the policing action/war was a lie?
So remember...The USA does not need to be fired upon first... We all like to think that we are holier than all get out...Never wrong...We never start the fight... just finish it...
This is just not true...
In the American Mexican War....America prodded and antagonized the Mexicans trying to start any kind of squabble dispute...So they could declare war...
Once they did it was a land grab and mexican slaughter. The Difference between us and Hitler at that time was Hitler was not born yet....And we declared war before seizing all that land....So the rest of the world sort of accepted it as the happenings of war.... Hitler took eastern Europe without war....And the rest of the world freaked out.
America almost never gets fired upon first.... They did not get fired upon first in Iraq (either time).. Veitnam... in WW1 they entered the war after the lucitania was sunk...And it was hit by mistake....
So there is a huge misconception about america and war...
The rest of the world says we plan to attack by the end of this month.
http://in.news.yahoo.com/070404/43/6e5dl.html
http://en.rian.ru/world/20070404/63076298.html
http://en.rian.ru/world/20070330/62861432.html
This on the news down here this morning.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/print/4017520a10.html
Interesting - the Iranians must not have an Abu Ghraib at their disposal-- I didn't hear of any wires hooked to the genitals etc. Some cultures are not as civilized.
Stein will be returning to home port , Nimtz sailed early to show the flag, rattle the sabor, carriers are made for one reason , to project the power of the President of the United State's , who evr that Pres. is at the time.
It didn't sail that much early MTL , and now that it has sailed the next carrier in schedule is the ready up 72 hour carrier. do we have plans to attach , yes , many places , many plans . That what we do , USN , contigency planing , what if , should we ?? I do know IF we don't and the $hit hots the fan blame is layed for not being ready , when we / they stay ready everyone gets all spun up , bent outta shape about that as well. Damned if you do damned if you don't.
If I had my way we'd go back to pre WW1 isolationism, before Pres. Wilson sent Lusatanna out as a sitting duck to be torpedoed so we could enter the war , or when Roosvelt set all those A/C out so Japan could bomb Pearl.
Veitnam the stupidist war on our part , blame Eke ,/ Kennedy?? etc .
The world is shrinking USA should butt out bring the troops all over the world home , close all the borders , and get ready to repell borders . Let the Europeans take can of Europe , Japan , NK , China , scramble for power , etc etc middle east as well.
So you signing up to run fer President, PEG? We need someone who thinks like that - that's why my vote's going for Ron Paul... :)
That sounds more like the way it should be, PEG.
I see that you realize that we have many times in the past set the scene up to get the people to agree with government policy.
Things haven't changed. :-/
QuoteSo you signing up to run fer President, PEG? We need someone who thinks like that - that's why my vote's going for Ron Paul... :)
"If nominated I will not run; if elected I will not serve." A quote from a pretty fair General / warrior.
A fan of William Sherman I see..
I agree that It would be better to bring the troops home from Asia and the middle East...And spend time efforts and monies on making America a even better place to live...Spend monies investing in our economy....Balancing the books paying own debts...
Sadly the Iraq war was going to happen... 10 years ago or a little better when Clinton first became president...There was a new Think tank commishioned by the white house... It was just after the Soviet Union fragmented into 13 countries...The Cold war was over and Americans we overjoyed that they were the last superpower.
Anyways Paul Wolfowitz, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfield..They came up with the Project for the new American Century back in the 90's. This Neo Conservative group decided that They needed to Invade Iraq.
They presented this must do idea to Clinton who told them they were clearly insane... Ten years later Bush and Company invaded Iraq... This war was immanent... It was planned down to every detail...Everything that could be done was done to bring the war to fruitition.
This group of Psychos can be read about... scary scary stuff...Makes the boogeyman look like Tickle me Elmo
http://www.thefourreasons.org/pnac.htm
Looks like a good website to research - lots of info there...
I see no one mentioned that they where released and that "extra " carrier is now headed to it "normal" / scheduled station in the gulf.
So was it the carriers "armed to the teeth, headed for Mr. Armadajads (sp) coast , or was it his generous kind heart that lead him to this quick release ::)
Maybe a combination of both, but will it do him any good?
I guess it's a wait and see thing. :)
Peg
It might have been the release of the Iranian diplomats and Interpreters that were seized working in Iraq by US forces some time ago...
Several have been released during the time the 15 British sailors were held and a handful more have been made available to Government officials in Iran...And their release is likely...
This has as much to do with the release of the 15 british sailors as anything.
What is interesting is that before the British sailors were captured/Taken....The US government denied taking having the iranians that they this week released
I guess they found them lying around when they were doing their "Spring Cleaning"
The Carriers are there so when they drop the hammer on Iran they can set them back at least 10-15 years... I am not talking Nukes either...They would decimate every aspect of their economy and industry...
Apparently, it was an Easter gift to the British people. ;) Have a look on the bottom of page one, (this thread) you will find the link there.
QuoteApparently, it was an Easter gift to the British people. ;) Have a look on the bottom of page one, (this thread) you will find the link there.
Oh ya he did it because of the Easter bunny ::) I saw that , I don't beleive it had anything to do with Easter nor his good will toward the British people , just MO.
Maybe those IDF guys that got taken way back when that started the last lil skirmish in the M.E. will be rerleased as a Easter gift. Or at least thier body's given back.
What is your take on this, PEG?
Seems our own people say our carriers are defenseless. Seems like bush is putting a lot of our people in danger. Not that they don't have time to make a good effort as I'm sure they will do their best and destroy a lot of Iran. It's just that other technology that Iran seems to possess has surpassed our old carrier technology and our leaders are unable to do anything about it so far.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/bloomberg/20070323/pl_bloomberg/ako7y_orw538
QuoteWhat is your take on this, PEG?
Seems our own people say our carriers are defenseless. Seems like bush is putting a lot of our people in danger. Not that they don't have time to make a good effort as I'm sure they will do their best and destroy a lot of Iran. It's just that other technology that Iran seems to possess has surpassed our old carrier technology and our leaders are unable to do anything about it so far.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/bloomberg/20070323/pl_bloomberg/ako7y_orw538
What my take on it is , is it a tested missle ?? Do the Iranians have subs , that are mission capable to launch said missles???
If so , our subs, the fast attacks , anti sub , subs in other words , should be able to take and old noisy diesel boats out pryor to there launch of said missles.
Of course this would have to be after one , or more , if they have more than one missle platform , has fired and destroyed a carrier. Assuming they do a muliple "first strike " offensive, that is .
Once that happens the life span on "ANY SUB " not squaking the right freq. or emmitting the wrong sonar sounds would be taken out.
The weak link to carrier defence is sub's , our sub's protect our ships by hunting the other guys sub's .
This new sub / airborne threat may have to be destroyed pre launch, the article does not mention any other way to fire it, or I missed it if it did, carriers also have A/C on alert depending on precieved threats , those A/C would also be players in destroying said missle either with another missle's or by the utlmate sacrifice.
So thats a lil of what my take is .
We could also follow the money of the dudes mentioned / quoted in the article. ::)
Yep - always gotta consider the money angle. :)
Well
Iran has no real Navy....Certianly not advanced submarines. I cannot believe that the Missile cannot be adapted to fire from land...
Considering that the Gulf is small and the Carriers would be in sight from Iran So distance is not an issue
The only way to neutralize this sort of threat is to attack without provocation...Meaning just invade
Which if the rest of the world does not agree to under UN terms...means they are committing acts of terrorism on Iran
I say this only because if a weapons facility or any kind of factory was attacked tomorrow in the USA we would call it an act of terrorism
And no matter how you spin this ...Attacking without provocation would be preventing Iran from defending themselves.
This sizzler missile if owned by iran would only have limited range and be a defensive weapon as they do not have nuclear submarines.
This would copy the pattern of attack of Iraq.... Bomb the shit out of the radar and missile defense systems all over the borders...So there would be no resistance to the invasion.
Iran has a lot more defensive capabilities than Iraq....So America would love to get a chance to pre - emptively go ahead and wipe out as much as possible... before declaring war.... which at that point would not be much of a war....As they could not defend themselves....So a slaughter
Rarely when onboard a carrier do you see land , I guess we could park one a 1/2 mile off shore so they could throw rocks , or that sizzle missle at one ::) so we could do that preemtive strike we apparentally are so well known for.
Sorry this last lil sabor rattle didn't go your way Peter. It all worked out without conflict , the carriers didn't shoot the crap outta Iran , ete etc.
Over and out of this thread , ROGER BALL ;D
Have we actually declared a war since WWII? (I wondered and then looked it up)
Answer--Not formally, but goodness knows we've been in plenty of actions that congress hasn't prohibited (and has allowed money to be spent on), both before and after WWII, including Paraguay in 1859. And some things that don't quite fall under either category, like troops in Korea in 1870 or some pretty bloody years in the Philipines in the early part of the last century.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_war_by_the_United_States
Historically religious wars last a long ,long time.
So do oil, big business, global domination and power wars. :)
peg
I dunno about the rattling of the saber....I do know that when Some of the Iranians diplomats and translators were released and acces was granted to 5 more that were taken by the Americans in Iraq....Then Iran almost instantly did a 180 and said the release of the British navy officers would happen... 2 days later they were all released without incident
There is no point to make with the aircraft carriers...Iran has little to no navy.....It is known how many carriers the USA has and their capability of war....So Iran already knows what can be done or would be done if a war started...
They need to only look back a couple of years to see how the Iraq situation played out... Sending the Carriers to the gulf in my mind is more of the USA wanting an excuse to invade...And having maximum firepower there to invade should they somehow figure out a way to destroy Iran without facing sanctions from the rest of the world.
With Iraq America had the false documents that Hussein had Nukes...He had WMD...He was behind 9-11...etc....Sadaam killed those that resisted his rule with Chemical weapons 20 years ago....He was a and man that was not liked by the rest of the world...Iraq had taken Kuwait a in the 90's and that pissed a lot of the world off.
Iran does not go around pissing the rest of the world off... America dislikes anyone that defies American influence in the middle east...Israel dislikes anyone that does not agree that they should push the Palestinians in Gaza into the sea and Push the Palestinians in the west bank into Jordan and take all the land for themselves.
But nobody else wants war with Iran...Save Bush and company
If tomorrow The USA dropped bombs on Iran there would be many countries all over the world that would be calling it unjustified and want America sanctioned and brought to justice as criminals of war....For an illegal invasion
Quotepeg
#1: I dunno about the rattling of the saber....
#2: I do know that when Some of the Iranians diplomats and translators were released and acces was granted to 5 more that were taken by the Americans in Iraq....Then Iran almost instantly did a 180 and said the release of the
#3: British navy officers would happen... 2 days later they were all released without incident
#4: There is no point to make with the aircraft carriers...Iran has little to no navy.....It is known how many carriers the USA has and their capability of war....So Iran already knows what can be done or would be done if a war started...
#5: They need to only look back a couple of years to see how the Iraq situation played out... Sending the Carriers to the gulf in my mind is more of the USA wanting an excuse to invade...And having maximum firepower there to invade should they somehow figure out a way to destroy Iran without facing sanctions from the rest of the world.
#6: With Iraq America had the false documents that Hussein had Nukes...He had WMD...He was behind 9-11...etc....Sadaam killed those that resisted his rule with Chemical weapons 20 years ago....He was a and man that was not liked by the rest of the world...Iraq had taken Kuwait a in the 90's and that pissed a lot of the world off.
#7: Iran does not go around pissing the rest of the world off... America dislikes anyone that defies American influence in the middle east...Israel dislikes anyone that does not agree that they should push the Palestinians in Gaza into the sea and Push the Palestinians in the west bank into Jordan and take all the land for themselves.
#8: But nobody else wants war with Iran...Save Bush and company
#9: If tomorrow The USA dropped bombs on Iran there would be many countries all over the world that would be calling it unjustified and want America sanctioned and brought to justice as criminals of war....For an illegal invasion
Ok Peter , you think / know the USA is a war mongering nation , or so it seems.
#1: I see results , you don't. I see a connection to the release , you don't.
#2: Way do you think those Iranians where in Iraq?? Selling cookies ??
#3: There was only one officier in the group , the rest where enlisted. Not that that matters , but it is a fact.
#4: The carriers are to "Project the power of the President of the United States" , we haven't had a naval battle in 50 years , they can project that power on land or at sea. They are a tool , like a Skilsaw , they can convince the unconvinceable. Saddam wasn't convinced , big mistake on his part I'd say , YMMV.
#5: There was no invasion , carriers are ready and can project that power better than any conventional weapon the US has. The shrub just broke out the right tool for the job, IMO , again YMMV.
#6: Yes not finding those weapons was a mistake either in not getting to them in time , or by us , US , making it up . Where his cem weapons when is also a issue , I think Syria , but I have no proof , or they are still burried in some sand hill.
You do have me on this one , so I say yup without those weapons we US have really srewed the pooch, but the world , IMO is better off without ole Saddum , he was pretty dumb to push it to the limit with the weapons inspector if you ask me , which you didn't , but thats my .02 cents on it.
#7: Well Israel isn't to happy Iran is processing weaps grade plutoium , but hey they're just Jews so they are the ones who should be driven into the sea. Right?? And I don't believe you can show where any Jewish politcal lead has expressed that stance , but I know I can show a few Arab's leaders who have.
#8: I don't think Bush wants a war with Iran any more than I do , but he does want them to lay off the weapons grade stuff , as do I. But then again that's just my opinion , YMMV.
#9: Tomorrow's another day Peter , but yes your right IF the USA tomorrow attacked Iran it wouldn't be recieved very well. Excellent observation!
I'm a little surprised no one asked what ROGER BALL meant / means , but thats the way the cookie crumbies some times :(
Hope your Easter has been peaceful ;)
I'll bite on the Roger Ball PEG -- I see he is a retired USN fighter pilot with 800 carrier landings. What else?
QuoteI'll bite on the Roger Ball PEG -- I see he is a retired USN fighter pilot with 800 carrier landings. What else?
Well Roger Ball [highlight]IF [/highlight]he where a person would have millions of traps (arrested landings ) ;D
It's what the pilot says when he has aquired the "Ball" , the fresnel lens ,
from : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_carrier
(// http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/34/FS_CdG_Optics.jpg/180px-FS_CdG_Optics.jpg)
Landing systems
Another British invention was the glide-slope indicator (also known as a "meatball"). This was a gyroscopically-controlled lamp (which used a Fresnel lens) on the port side of the deck which could be seen by the aviator who was about to land, indicating to him whether he was too high or too low in relation to the desired glidepath. It also took into account the effect of the waves on the flight deck. The device became a necessity as the landing speed of aircraft increased.
So every landing as the A/C and crew make the turn and he or she aquires / sees the meatball / indicator lights they acknowlegde that by saying "Roger, ball". Then the LSO knows he's not just winging it.
One of my young , then airmen (E-3 ) / workers , now a E-8 (Senior Chief) used to call the TV/ plat camera , <the TV we had in our shop on the ship which was to [highlight]be at all time [/highlight] ::)tuned to the plat camera channel > , flightdeck film , so if the volume was turned up and we / the ship was in flt. ops. (flight operations ) ever 45 seconds or so you hear "Roger , ball!" so he called it "The Roger Ball show!" Quite funny / interesting Larry came up with that ;D ;D
So they "fly the ball" ya the same , almost as AOA system except the ship is moving so it's AOA plus ball , plus a few hundred other things that gets them back to the ship.
Your a pilot so that oughta make sence to you.
Yup that makes sense. I actually did find the Roger Ball guy in a search though. He only had 800 landings though.
QuoteYup that makes sense. I actually did find the Roger Ball guy in a search though. He only had 800 landings though.
I thought you where kidding so there is a Roger Ball , wonder if he had any TV offers while on CV's ;D
It woulda been a big hit , everyone was watching , whether they wanted to or not ::)
Yup --- http://www.blogger.com/profile/11051821
Here's his blog. http://threewire.blogspot.com/
Peg
Well as for the weapons stuff in Iraq...
It goes back to the lincoln quote...You can fool some of the people all the time ..All of the people some of the time...
Well Bush and Cheney tried to use made up intelligence reports about Iraq... The Fuel Cells that were supposed to be missile silos? remember the duct tape mini airplane...That was the spy cam tech that they developed....Laughable things..
The rest of the world was not buying it...They were saying "ummm, this does not make sense, you have no real proof of anything"
So you cannot fool all the people all the time.
I know you dislike the UN...But just before Iraq was invaded...Saddam had allowed the UN to go wherever they wanted for an extended time...They had teams of inspectors equipped with helicopters using machinery that could detect a used chemical weapon shell that was 20 years old.... a couple grains of sand that were exposed to a chemical site would show up...
Lets be clear about a few things.... almost half of Iraqi air space was controlled by the USA and it was never relinquished since the early 90's...So they have had an air embargo on Iraq for 15 years...
Despite Saddam complying with the list of demands after the gulf war the sanctions were never relinquished...
When they did invade Iraq and they found their supposed chemical weapons...It was a massive pile of chemical weapons that were destroyed just as Sadaam said they were...And all the found were the spent shells and a few remains of destroyed weapons.
Sadaam kept saying that they destroyed the weapons and the factories....And to this day they have not found the capability in Iraq to make more Chemical weapons....
The Whole Debacle of Saddam having Nukes from Sudan... It was a forgery that the rest of the world picked up on almost immediately....
What I am trying to show you is that there was no reason to invade Iraq except that Bush and Company wanted to invade Iraq.... It was a way to get re-elected...Haliburton would make billions...(we know who owns a huge part of that company)
What irks me the most is that The whole international community was saying over and over that Iraq was making a strong effort to co-operate with the UN and inspectors...I think the UN nuke watchdog gave them a A- grade for participation and co-operation...
As for the claims that all the Nukes and chem weapons went to Syria...
This is foolish to even try to defend....They cannot transport chem weapons and equipment without leaving a trail behind....And that is easily detected ...A microscopic trail can be detected...
Also they have satellite capability to monitor and photograph from space any movement along the Iraq Syrian Border...If there was a convoy of weapons leaving Iraq they would have proof concrete proof....They have nothing because it did not happen....There has been nothing there for years to hide conceal or smuggle out of the country
If this was the case at all USA would be pointing their guns ships and planes to Syria...
Bush lost control of the House and Senate...Because the country learned that the Iraq war was a lie....They see it was not necessary for american freedom....And they spoke decisively against the Republican party last fall in the Mid Term Elections...
If the Republicans had any evidence that would stand up to scrutiny that Saddam had weapons...Nukes chems...Whatever...We would see it.
If there was a definate link to Saddam and 9-11 We would have seen it. Or Al Quieda... etc...
Lowest approval ratings ever... Grounds for impeachment... These have been the results here in america for Bush invading Iraq...
Peg I do not want to be right on the Iraq issue.... I want the people that died needlessly for this war to be alive with their families.
I think it is the greatest honour and sacrifice to defend your country and to fight for it's cause.
I also think it is a burden of the utmost importance upon government to protect the lives of the men and women who would die for this country.
Bush and company did not do that....They sent brave soldiers to die for the wrong reasons... This is why they are to be abhorred....This is why they should be in chains.
What I still cannot understand is why the whole nation is not rising up against Bush to demand that he be punished for the needless death of American troops in Iraq
When we have proof that the documentation they presented to the world was a lie
Onto Israel next post
Peg
The thing about Israel is that they call out for the condemnation if Iran or Syria or even palestinian governments....They want the international community to put pressure on these groups because they show agression against Israel
Well the problem with this is that Israeli law is a direct violation of International law.... You see you cannot settle occupied territory under international law.
Israel re-wrote their constitution to say it was okay... In their constitution it is illegal to live in the Golan Heights if you are not Jewish
Just imagine something like that in America.... You are not allowed to live at the country club unless you are white... or Catholic...etc....
Israel has not abided by or stopped expanding their borders.... Each and every day Israel takes more and more of the disputed lands and settles it...They are putting up barricades and fences...
Check out amnesty international or the Red Cross...Both pretty humane web sites....Guess who sits at the top of human right violations on their lists year after year after year.....Yes Israel.... They attack palestinian settlers in the west bank and in Gaza on purpose so if they throw a rock back they can shoot them burn them out and add their lands to Israeli lands...
Peg this is much worse than the Nazi invasion....Not in Brutality...But this has been going on non stop for over 60 years....The Palestinians are living in Refugee camps...Unspeakable conditions...No water food...Living in their own filth (sewage story from last week?????)
Not a isolated group either Millions and millions of Displaced Palestinians living in refugee camps...And like I said this has been going on for 60 + years....
So when Fatah or Hames get angry and lash out against the Zionists we should be able to understand why...
This problem was Started when Britain and the USA decided to put the Jews back in Israel....So they could have someone there who would expand their influence in the region...
As for Iran and Nukes...Israel has Nukes and refuses to speak with the UN about their weapons programs...They refuse to allow inspections... yet there are no sanctions or impending invasions of Israel by the entire world...
A month ago Iran Said that they would dismantle and destroy every part and piece of any weapon program if the USA would stop building new nukes and enriching weapon grade Uranium and Plutonium... That was not even responded to... .Which makes the USA look like Hippocrits.. They are building more advanced nukes with 10 times the ability for devastation and they are chastising the rest of the world for developing nuclear technology
Back to Israel.... It is a total mess over there...The problem is the Jews became hippocrits when they put the People living in what is now Israel to the Sword and took the land... The whole world suffered in WW2...And the world saw the Jewish people get brutalized.... But what the Jewish people have done to the Palestinians is very much like what the Germans did to the Jews
The only thing missing is the Gas Chamber
So while Israel does not make statements to the press...Death to the Arabs...Their laws...Actions and the history in that region for the last 60 years definately proves what their intentions truly are...
QuotePeg..... .. I know you dislike the UN...
Just to comment on a small portion of what you had to say....
I believe the present day UN has outlived its usefulness. For one... too many of the member countries who would impose their will upon us and the rest of the world, claim to be democracies, but in reality are often very much less than true democracies. (What most folks think of as a democracy are usually republics, like the USA, but that's another story.)
There are 192 UN member countries. Depending on who you believe, the number of countries that are true democracies is 89 at the most; probably many fewer. I don't want those countries adversely impacting my country of choice. Less than one half of the countries and less than one half of the world's people are free, according to Freedom House http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=15
As far as I'm concerned NONE of the countries listed as "not free" or "partly free" have an business telling a "free" country how they should go about their daily business.
Looking at the so-called :"free" countries, there are many I would not choose to live in over the USA, because they are too socialist.
No matter what you may think of the present US government, the USA is still the best country in the world to live in. In my opinion.
BTW, The UN inspectors (in Iraq) only got to see what they were allowed to see.
QuoteNo matter what you may think of the present US government, the USA is still the best country in the world to live in.
That would have to be -- In spite of the current administration and what they are doing to the country. Freedom is really gone now if they have any reason to not want you to have it.
Even war heroes have lost their freedom to the current administration and their police state laws. We have freedom as long as we don't want to go anywhere. The TSA has made me a prisoner here- I will not subject myself to the idiots.
Korean War hero branded a terrorist by draft-dodging Shrub (http://www.boingboing.net/2007/04/09/korean_war_hero_bran.html)
Quote
#6: Yes not finding those weapons was a mistake either in not getting to them in time , or by us , US , making it up . Where his cem weapons when is also a issue , I think Syria , but I have no proof , or they are still burried in some sand hill.
You do have me on this one , so I say yup without those weapons we US have really srewed the pooch, but the world , IMO is better off without ole Saddum , he was pretty dumb to push it to the limit with the weapons inspector if you ask me , which you didn't , but thats my .02 cents on it.
#7: Well Israel isn't to happy Iran is processing weaps grade plutoium , but hey they're just Jews so they are the ones who should be driven into the sea. Right?? And I don't believe you can show where any Jewish politcal lead has expressed that stance , but I know I can show a few Arab's leaders who have.
#8: I don't think Bush wants a war with Iran any more than I do , but he does want them to lay off the weapons grade stuff , as do I. But then again that's just my opinion , YMMV.
Well, I think Syria is in deep doo-doo on this. I believe they either have the missing WMD or know about them.
The world is a very confusing political place, but I do believe that the formation of the country of Israel was the correct thing to do. Israel is a free country, surrounded by non-free countries.
As far as Iran goes, nobody here really wants a war with them, but they are not acting like "good world citizens".
Why was putting the jews in Israel a good thing...knowing it would cause war and instability???
Several other options were on the table...In Africa south America...better land...More territory, natural resources...Less resistence from locals...
But they put the jews in the one place that would create the most upheaval and problems...
Perspective is a powerful thing and the media reports what governments want them to report...The winning side of a conflict often gets to say who is the hero and who is the war criminal.
No matter what Israel puts itself beyonf condemnation...For breaking international law...For settling disputed lands...For what they do daily to refugeees that they displaced....And for having nukes and refusing to allow the rest of the world to inspect their weapon facilities.
Any resolution to put pressure on the Israel is always vetoed by the USA....So there is no chance ever that Israel has to be accountable for their actions. As an ally of the USA and the USA having veto power....Israel can do as it wants
And if another country in that region gets agressive they face invasion or sanctions....
Despite what many people still believe...The UN did not come out and say that they were not allowed to inspect and search for weapons in Iraq....
One part of the process is to update intelligence....It is not all about finding nukes...that is a bonus...
one of the biggest attributes to being allowed to go into a country is that you can make detailed notes take pictures so that you can have accurate accounts of everything in the country in terms of capability to manufacture goods. When Iraq allowed inspections to happen they allowed the whole world to monitor every aspect of their economy and the information gathered would allow the world to gauge the capability for Iraq to produce weapons for years and years to come.
And the reports from the Inspectors was not that they were only allowed to go to a few places....There were seven teams flying where they wanted in teams of helicopters...Fast moving highly mobile scattering the whole country...Checking every kind of factory....Medical agricultural...chemical...If there was a chance the factory could make a weapon or a component for a weapon it was being examined.... They were updating lists and checking off potential sites to produce things that could be dangerous.
This is what the UN was doing when the USA invaded....
Like Saddam or hate him...Co-operation with the rest of the world was happening.....He was a bad man....I shed no tears for his death....But to kill thousands just to remove him.....A complete waste of human life.
If you remember the UN had to pull dozens of inspectors from Iraq before the invasion....Because there were all kinds of teams doing what they were supposed to be doing...
Also if you remember there was an offer on the table for Saddam to go live in Saudi Arabia or Egypt... They did not want Saddam to die they were not itching to execute him as a war criminal...They just wanted control of Iraq....Access to the oil and the ability to extract the wealth at the expense of the local population.
oh and another thing....Peg talked about weapon grade uranium
Iran has 3000 centrifuges for enrichment...They would need something like 60,000....So it would take at least a decade to get that many centrifuges online
Iran is only capable now of enriching uranium to 3%..Which is fuel grade....Weapons grade is much much higher...And currently not something Iran is even capable of...
Another important thing to consider is that if The world allowed Russia to finish building the Nuke power plants in Iran...They would be using up their enriched uranium in the power plants... And the whole process can be monitored...
If there are no sanctions...And inspectors are allowed in...The UN watchdog can go in and monitor every aspect of enrichment... Meaning someone can be there 24/7 to monitor how much uranium is enriched to what level....etc...
the UN watchdog has put seals on Iranian containers of uranium....And Iran allowed the uranium not to be touched for a year and a half...While the rest of the world talked about making it feasible for Iran to give up nuke power.
I do not blame Iran for saying after a year or so....Well if you are not going to give us cheap abundant power for our exploding economy and population...We need to keep going on making nuclear fuel.
At that point the tactic changed from...Stop enrichment or face sanctions...Not stop enrichment and we will negotiate a deal that will ensure your energy needs are met.....The world lead by the USA has said that no negotations will even start until uranium is no longer enriched...
According to international law It is not illegal to enrich uranium if you allow the UN watchdog to have access to facilities and to inspect the process....which Iran has been doing....So they are not violating the terms of the non proliferation treaty.
So there has been a lot of sandbagging by the US government...And they truly have little to no interest in working this out...offering Iran a solution to their energy needs...Or ending this peacefully.
In North Korea there was at least some effort to resolve the crisis...North Korea could get two light water nuclear reactors to generate electricity...And on top of that they would get subsidized fuel oil.... Light water power generation is inferior to heavy water power generation....But heavy water reactors create spent fuel rods that can be used for nuclear weapons
Iran has not been offered anything substantive to abandon Nuclear Energy.... We expect Iran to use all their oil and gas for power generation....We here forget that it is about their only abundant valueable resource for Export....
I cannot Blame Iran for wanting cheap abundant energy in the form of nuclear energy...So that they can sell their oil and gas to the west for incredible profits
QuoteWhy was putting the jews in Israel a good thing...knowing it would cause war and instability???
Well, my recollection of history is such that I believe the Jews had and continue to have as much right to be there as the Arabs. The area abounds with Jewish history.
YMMV
As well Israel is the only democracy in the middle east. That to me says a whole lot about their neighbors.
Don
Nobody disputes the fact that the bible tells about Israelites... the promise land...The return...
this would be great if the land was vacant....But it was not....It is an atrocious thing to remove people from the land they are living on against their will... to round them up and kill any that oppose...To force them into Syria, Jordan Egypt or into the sea....
What really appauls me the most is that they would treat another group of human beings this way immediately after the holocaust.... I guess they are basically saying it was okay for the Germans to take their lands wealth and kill whoever they wanted among the jews?....Because that is what they did when they left Europe for the middle East
Democracy is overrated when you have right wing nut jobs like Bush in office...
Quote...the promise land...
Democracy is overrated when you have right wing nut jobs like Bush in office...
It was the beloved UN that originally decided on the plan for the State of Israel.
As far as democracy being overrated... it still beats
all the alternatives that have been tried over the ages, some of which continue today; communism (China, Cuba), dictatorship (N. Korea and also communist), theocracy (Iran, and a republic as well for what it's worth), socialism, sultanate, totalitarianism, or anarchy to mention but a few. Try living under any of them and see how much you'd like it. There are faults with any of those. Not all democracies or republics are equal or as desirable to live in either.
The various forms of democracy may not be perfect, and you will not find anything that fits all people to a T. However, democracy does have tools to provide for change within the bounds of law. Even if it may take 8 years, it is still possible to make some changes. Much easier under a democracy/republic than under governments run by the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, the Arabian sheiks, Castro, Hugo Chavez, the list goes on ......) Under those types of rule the only effective tools are the ones with firing pins. And that's only if you and I, the common man, have access to them.
Don
Israel was an idea conceived and passed through the UN... As long as There was a Ally to the West in the middle east...Britian France and the United states could be assured control over the Suez Canal
This is why The middle east was selected as the Jewish state
If Tomorrow a country submitted a proposal to set up a state say the territory of Arizona...For Russians....Do you think that the people living in Arizona would just stand up pack their gear and leave?
Of course not.....And neither did the millions of palestinians that were living in what is now Israel.
So no matter the historical context...It cannot be argued that it was right to put those people to the sword to create the Jewish state.
I support democracy....However after the last 2 elections in this country I am very skeptical on how much freedom the people truly have when it comes to who runs the country...
China seems to be figuring out a way to make communism work...And for years so did Russia...Until we did everything we could to cut the legs out from under them to dissolve the USSR
Democracy is not the be all end all... Any system of Government can be horrible (see Bush, George W.)...Even Democracy
Democracy is a term often raised to justify the worst excesses of Israeli apartheid, but really democracy is a movable feast, and the shouting matches which pass as parlimentry debate in the Knesset along with the surprisingly high percentage of the members being investigated for corrupt conduct at any one time is apt to give democracy a bad name- although the raft of debt and nepotism riddled democratic hellholes in Africa seem to have done that already.
I don't call having your crotch snuffed by a drug and explosives detecting police dog as you walk onto a railway platform, or being liable to a fine or imprisionment if you don't vote being democratic either, but both are the norm in supposedly democratic Australia.
It may be too early in the morning for me to get into this discussion :-/ but - I think others have said this before on this forum - democracy is often just "mob rule" whereas our country was founded as a "republic"...
In the Bible Yaweh promised the Israelites the land "if they were faithful & followed His commandments" - He also spoke of a "new covenant" throughout the Old Testament - which was the promise of a "Messiah" - the Jews are still looking forward to that Messiah... whereas the "Christian's" believe the Christ was the Messiah.
But, putting that aside, the covenant was contingent on obedience & following Yaweh's commands - which, I don't believe the "nation of Israel" has done - from what I have read, the "Zionists" have a mostly secular society & even faithful Jews speak out against what the Zionists are doing.
So that leaves the question - have they re-occupied according to Yaweh's commands or have they done it according to man's will & desires... so many in the Western "Christian" world think they have reoccupied the "Promised Land" - but have they?
A really good book, which I've mentioned before is Light Force by Bro Andrew (he smuggled Bibles into communist Russia & East Germany for years) Bro Andrew now brings the gospel of Christ to both the Palestinians & the Jews, works closely with the Palestinian Christians in helping them both physically & spiritually & sheds a whole new light on the atrocities that the Zionist Jews are pouring out on the Palestinians.
The Bible also speaks of great judgment on the nation of Israel through "Assyria" because of the apostasy & disobedience...
Regarding Iraq - I was speaking to one of the doctors - he's actually Pakastani & a also a Muslim - he made the remark that the Shi'ites & Sunnis have lived peacefully together for centuries - yes, they have their squabbles, but on the whole they get along, even inter-marry. He says the real battle is against the occupying forces - that the media misleads the public on what is really happening in always referring to civil war...
BTW, I took care of a young veteran - 23 y/o the other night - who had served in Iraq - had traumatic brain injury from an explosion - anyway, having lots of grand mal seizures - trying to get service connection for the injury so that he can have some kind of income for he & his wife - has been trying to get it for 2 yrs since he was discharged due to the injury...
sad... he'd had 2 seizures at home while taking a shower, came by ambulance & within 5 minutes of getting to our ER, had another one... multiply that by 1000's of our young veterans & troops; then multiply that by 10's of 1000's to reflect the injured Iraqis - so unnecessary, so tragic. I felt so sorry for this young man & his wife (don't know if they had any kids).
the world is a small place. When Israel takes from the palestinians... and places them in refugee camps...It is hard to sit there and listen to the BS excuse for the actions...."that this is the land promised to us by God; therefor this is the right thing to do to these people that were on the land" ::)
Murder is still murder... theft is still theft....Greed is still Greed....All sins... Funny they are mentioning God....They will not be seeing him when they leave this realm :-/
Two questions, Benevolance and Sassy- do you think that the Israeli occupation of Palestinian land, mainly that portion occupied since 1967 which seems to be the main blockage in the peace process, and US funding off it, is behind most terrorist acts directed at the US and it's supporters?
And the second is, are there any Muslims in the top ranks of the US Government?
fourx, I couldn't really say on either - except that recently Condi Rice swore in someone who used the Koran instead of the Bible. I think there's the "globalist" agenda & there's the Muslim & "Christian" agenda.
I believe that God, according to the Bible, promised the land - lots more, in fact, to Israel - but it was totally conditional. They were to treat their neighbors as themselves, & also, there is a lot said about the "alien" among them - if the alien wants to live with them & follow their God & laws they are to treat him with respect & kindness, because they were once aliens. If the Israelites were disobedient, they would bring a curse on themselves & lose the promised land. So, there is a lot of responsibility on the part of Israel to abide by the commandments. But then, if you believe the Messiah has already come in the person of Jesus, then the Jews who reject him have totally missed the boat & the old covenant no longer applies as it was replaced by the new covenant. The old covenant was by works, the new covenant by faith.
There are evil men who have infiltrated all gov'ts & religions - so I'm not surprised when any of them come up with terrorist attacks or despicable behavior. Jesus warned that in the last days, men would be lovers of themselves & not care about their neighbor, God, country or the earth...
In the Old Testament, God also blessed Ishmael & Haggar (his mother) as they, too, were of Abraham's seed. God does not leave anyone out - but when Mohammed wrote the Koran (Qua'ran) it was because the Jews disdained his people & ostrasized them - there is always the choice of reconciliation with God but the Jews, by their behavior, totally tried to block Mohammed's people, so a new religion was born. There's a lot of similarities but there are distinct differences, also. Allah is considered merciful, but distant & it is all on your own shoulders whether you make it to heaven/paradise or not, it's the same for the Jews, but true Christians have a mediator who took the punishment we deserved on himself, so by faith, they accept that.
So, I probably didn't answer your questions, but I answered from my world view.
And a very interesting answer it was, Sassy. I live a short plane flight from the largest Muslim nation on Earth, Indonesia, and have spent a lot of time there, as well as Malaysia. In all parts of both countries except Bali, Islam is the predominante faith and the majior basis of everyday life, and I have to say that without exception the Muslims I have lived and worked with there and in the rest of SE Asia are the nicest, most easy-going and least fundamentalist people you would ever want to meet.
I work with doctors & nurses from all over the world so am fortunate to learn about their cultures & beliefs - I also do a lot of reading on what others believe...
here's some stories from a different perspective...
Five Christians Charged with Blasphemy - Voice of the Martyr Sources
Five Christians have been charged with blasphemy under Pakistan's blasphemy laws 295-A and 295-C, in Toba Tek Singh, Pakistan. Daniel, an 11-year-old Christian boy, refused to play with his Muslim friends, resulting in them beating him. When Daniel's family confronted the attackers, the Muslims called the police and made a false report saying they had blasphemed the name of the Holy Prophet. Now Daniel's family-Rashid Masih, Salamat Masih, Sahba Masih Motta, Bao Masih and Sheela Masih-is living under threat of attack by Muslim extremists. The Muslim family told other Muslims at a religious gathering that the Christians had disgraced the Holy Prophet, tore a holy sticker and beat it with a shoe. This has led to tension in the city. Christians in the area fear Muslim extremists will attack the family. There was fear there would be attacks during celebrations leading up to Easter Sunday. If convicted under blasphemy laws 295-A and 295-C, the family faces three years imprisonment, a fine and the death penalty, or life imprisonment and a fine.
LIAONING PROVINCE On March 14, local police arrested 54-year-old house-church leader, Gu Changrong, in Fushun City, Liaoning Province, after she shared her faith with the secretary of the Communist Party in her village. According to China Aid Association (CAA), Yu Mingfu called the police and accused Gu of "poisoning Communist Party members with the Christian message." According to Gu's relatives, she has been sentenced to one-year of re-education through labor for "using evil cult organizations to obstruct the exercising of state laws." The family has not received a formal notice of her sentence since her arrest, according to CAA. Gu is serving her sentence at Ma San Jian Labor Camp, which is known for its harsh treatment and torture against thousands of imprisoned Falun Gong members.
Pastors Arrested VOM Sources
In the city of Varanasi, Rajendra Chawhan, a pastor and evangelist, has been working to reach non-believers in an area outside Varanasi. He has been holding prayer meetings that have grown to more than a thousand believers and this has angered radical Hindu groups. The pastor has been arrested and beaten several times. Following a recent prayer and healing service, Pastor Chawhan was beaten by Hindu extremists and taken to the police, who arrested him. This was the sixth time he had been arrested. Some Christians went to jail to protest his arrest and were beaten by extremists, while the police turned a blind eye.
So, persecution happens everywhere...
It can sour one's views on religion at times. :(
To reply to fourx's ? re muslims in US gov'mnt... there are no significantly placed members that are muslim. The was that recent case of controversy over the swearing in on the Koran, but that's about all I'm sure of.
Well
I truly believe that Israel has tarnished the Image of the USA to the rest of the world....
When the UN put the Israel partition to the vote in the late 40's...Every Country in that region voted against it...But only a few countries have vetos... So the bill passed and Israel was forced down the throats of all the middle eastern countries.
of all the poor african nations where people starve to death and disease runs rampant....Guess what country has gotten more aid and money from the USA in the last 60 years than any other....yes you guessed it: Israel.
Israel could not wage war in that area and win without Military support and monies from the USA...
Kind of like when the southern states decided to break free of the USA when Lincoln did not even try to win a southern state and still became president....The Middle east felt like they had no say whatsoever in their own affairs...There was clear unified adamant rejection to the creation if Israel by everyone in the region...And yet despite this unity there was nothing they could do to stop it..
Which is why the initial war broke out when Israel made a declaration of Independence to the world....And after that it has been a land grab by Israel ever since...
Jimmy Carter has spoken out against Israel for 30 years...because years ago he worked for a couple of years on the Camp David Peace proposal...And he has clearly stated that Israel in no way shape or form has ever tried to live upto any of the conditions of that accord.... Doing so would be giving up key pieces of land and water rights...
In fact if you follow the history of battles in the region there has been a clear agenda from the Jewish Side...Secure the water...a vast portion of the water for Jerusalem is pumped from the occupied territories into Israel...
Agreeing to release the occupied territories would mean giving up scarce plentiful water in the west bank and Israel is in no way prepared to do this... This occupation is more about water resources and continued expansion into the territory by settlers even though it is a direct violation of international law...Something that warrants heavy sanctions from the world (but the world knows sanctions will never pass because the USA has Veto power and any bill proposed to sanction Israel gets vetoed)
Israel always talks about security....They have American Planes tanks and ships...They have nukes...There is Zero chance that they could ever be run over by their enemies...In any major offensive if Israel were in trouble of being overrun by enemies the USA would just come in and wipe out any threat to their Ally in the Middle east...
They would cite the need to protect a democracy....or whatever and they would come in...
So hell yes the world loathes us for Israel...Israel does not have to follow the Geneva Convention and the US veto power protects them from punishment...Israel continues to expand their borders at the expense of millions of refugees... There is plenty of reason for bitterness and resentment...
Water is scarce in that region and refugees are forced into Syria, Jordan and Egypt....Creating havoc and problems in those countries....So all nations in the region feel the burden of the Israeli expansion.
It does not take a rocket scientist to see all those people living in Squalor and then seeing generations of radical religous zealots prepared to do anything by any means to bring about change in the region...Even if that means strapping dynamite to their chest and jumping on a bus filled with soldiers or jews or Americans...
It is horrible and almost unspeakable...But we can see clearly why it is happening.
Iran releases video of British soldiers while in captivity http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5f9_1176075119
More land promised? It might have to be another planet. So we can try do the same things there as we have here, from IIRC Old Testament days on.
http://www.wethepeoplefoundation.org/UPDATE/Update2007-04-15.htm Who & What is "Israel"? I think this sheds a little more light on what I was trying to explain earlier...
A great site!
I got into a heated debate with a hardcore baptist a few months ago over Israel...He said the creation of Israel was the work of God and the fufillment of biblical prophecy....I said it was hogwash and nowhere in the Bible was it okay to rape pillage and murder other groups of people in the name of God....
I totally agree that the word Israel like the word Income have been hijacked and changed....So that we will not oppose how we are taxed and where our tax dollars go....
the frustrating part is that according to the constitution there should be a way to stop this outrage.....I am skeptical that anyone can stop the federal government from doing what they want....
we joke about the black helicopters....But it is no Joke...The USA is very much a police state in many ways and the Governments ability to crush any of us like a bug is very real....
Make too many waves and you drown :-/
Bush sanctions 'black ops' against Iran (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=E3KMWW5VVIXZNQFIQMFSFF4AVCBQ0IV0?xml=/news/2007/05/27/wiran27.xml)
"The CIA is giving arms-length support, supplying money and weapons, to an Iranian militant group, Jundullah, which has conducted raids into Iran from bases in Pakistan," the London Telegraph reported yesterday.
Jundullah is a Sunni Al-Qaeda offshoot organization that was formerly headed by alleged 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. Even if you believe the official story of 9/11 to the letter, the fact that Bush has personally authorized U.S. support for this group completely dismantles the facade of the war on terror.
Many in the rest of the world refer to it as AlCIAda. We have to create our own bogeymen so we can call them whatever we want. So there. :o It helps to keep our citizens scared so we will approve anything our gov. wants or at least sit back on our laurels and let them "protect" us.
Didn't Iran and the US just hold the first direct talks in thirty years?
Shows what a little backbone will do.
those talks mean nothing...The USA wants something from Iran...Mostly help with Iraq
Once Iraq is more secure...They will again turn their full focus on Iran...
After all they are an Axis of Evil :o
Peter is right, Pete - the major people we have in office now have forked tongues and talk out of both of their faces.
I can't believe that they even have the b*lls to ask Iran for help, but the truth is we are slowly getting creamed over there. The green zone is unsafe to walk in without flak jackets and helmets. http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=3155382
Most of our military are realizing it is a no win deal and are tired of being used as cannon fodder by our corporate/crime controlled government. http://www.workers.org/2007/us/dissent-0531/
Supplies are not getting through or much more difficult. http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0108/p06s01-woiq.html
Some think the loose cannon in the whitehouse is still going to bomb Iran - no matter what.
http://kurtnimmo.com/?p=880
Some info on the fake Al Queda -
http://lataan.blogspot.com/2007/05/myth-of-al-qaeda-is-now-almost-totally.html
Very good article on Admiral Wm Fallon - US Central Command - too bad he is stepping down... article illuminates a lot of behind the scenes thinking in the Middle East... Admiral Fallon vs the Bush/Cheney loose cannons
The Man Between War and Peace
By Thomas P.M. Barnett – Esquire, March 11, 2008
If, in the dying light of the Bush administration, we go to war with Iran, it'll all come down to one man. If we do not go to war with Iran, it'll come down to the same man. He is that rarest of creatures in the Bush universe: the good cop on Iran, and a man of strategic brilliance. His name is William Fallon, although all of his friends call him "Fox," which was his fighter-pilot call sign decades ago. Forty years into a military career that has seen this admiral rule over America's two most important combatant commands, Pacific Command and now United States Central Command, it's impossible to make this guy--as he likes to say--"nervous in the service." Past American governments have used saber rattling as a useful tactic to get some bad actor on the world stage to fall in line. This government hasn't mastered that kind of subtlety. When Dick Cheney has rattled his saber, it has generally meant that he intends to use it. And in spite of recent war spasms aimed at Iran from this sclerotic administration, Fallon is in no hurry to pick up any campaign medals for Iran. And therein lies the rub for the hard-liners led by Cheney. Army General David Petraeus, commanding America's forces in Iraq, may say, "You cannot win in Iraq solely in Iraq," but Fox Fallon is Petraeus's boss, and he is the commander of United States Central Command, and Fallon doesn't extend Petraeus's logic to mean war against Iran.
Admiral Fallon
So while Admiral Fallon's boss, President George W. Bush, regularly trash-talks his way to World War III and his administration casually casts Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as this century's Hitler (a crown it has awarded once before, to deadly effect), it's left to Fallon--and apparently Fallon alone--to argue that, as he told Al Jazeera last fall: "This constant drumbeat of conflict . . . is not helpful and not useful. I expect that there will be no war, and that is what we ought to be working for. We ought to try to do our utmost to create different conditions."
continued at link... http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/print.asp?ID=8207
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article3868063.ece
United States is drawing up plans to strike on Iranian insurgency camp
Michael Smith
Read Mick Smith's defence blog at www.timesonline.co.uk/micksmith
The US military is drawing up plans for a "surgical strike" against an insurgent training camp inside Iran if Republican Guards continue with attempts to destabilise Iraq, western intelligence sources said last week. One source said the Americans were growing increasingly angry at the involvement of the Guards' special-operations Quds force inside Iraq, training Shi'ite militias and smuggling weapons into the country. con't at link above
Unnamed "Western Intelligence" sources = lying to do what they want.
Propaganda by the Bush regime to go ahead and bomb Iran -- they want to so bad they can taste it --- just hoping the people don't grow tired of sending their loved ones to be maimed and their lives destroyed - future homeless shopping cart pushers etc., and come to get them.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-763017150586895849&q=saving+us&ei=WYIrSO2aB4GaqQOPtNCvCQ&hl=en
Last I heard one politician had a child in the war.