Could some of you have a look at this set of stud plans?
Thanks Randall.
(https://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad5/schiadab85/20x20s.jpg)
(https://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad5/schiadab85/20x20n.jpg)
(https://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad5/schiadab85/20x20e.jpg)
(https://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad5/schiadab85/20x20w.jpg)
Looks good! Are you going up 40 stories or so? The double and triple joists under the door and window king studs is way over kill , but it sure looks pretty in the drawings. Nice CAD work!
Aligning the studs with the joist is also over kill , but again it looks nice, but seldom, in a small cabin would it be required , or essential to a strong small building.
There are many cases where engineers would require such alignment , or more likely what we call "squash blocks" in point load situations. I don't see any need for it in a small building 1 1/2 story type building John has on his site.
But again it looks good and the CAD work is very nice.
Specifically what are you building? How many stories , what pitch roof , what type of sheathing, what type roofing , tile or slate for instance adds more weight then say metal roofing, so rafter spacing and roof sheathing requirements might change.
Are you in a snow load area, high wind exposure , earthquake zone?
All these things play a part in design , some what.
Great start.
I can't tell the span/spacing from the pictures. Are they 16" or 24" O/C? The headers may be spanning too far for one jack stud. This is dependent on a few factors. You can find a guide to header sizing and jack stud requirements here:
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=10511.0 Even with my little 1 story I decided to go with a double jack stud so I had the option to add a second floor in the future.
Based on the overhang of the double top plate on the third picture that is what I like to call the "inside" or "short" wall. I don't know if that is proper terminology. It is the wall that is does not extend all the way out to the corners of the building because the other two walls do. I framed a few buildings starting the stud spacing from the front of this wall. I figured out if I start the second stud of this wall at the proper sheathing distance from the end of the building it saves a massive amount of cutting, fitting, and waste when sheathing. So for example, if you are using 2x6 studs spaced 24" on center, start the second stud in at 24" from the corner and space all the rest of the studs at 24" from there. The first stud will be placed at 5.5" from the corner of the building with a distance between the first and second studs of 16.25". Since no piece of sheathing should be less than 24" wide, it should never be a problem. This way when you run the sheathing from the corner of the building tying the two walls together the edge will always fall over a stud with no cutting.
I'm also not sure if you need to double stud the ends. Also double check your studs underneath your windows. Because of the headers these will only be holding the weight of the window. Double studding these is extreme overkill and a waste of lumber. Some sides under the windows you don't have any support at all.
There are also large headers above each window for all four walls. Are you going with a hip roof?
First, Thanks! :)
1 1/2 story loft.Removed 10' from Johns plans. If I build 400Sf.or less no permit.And call it a shead. ::) Will need permits for water and electric.
16" O/C I never can find the studs at 16" Or 24"? So if I am going to build it they will be their!
18" overhang
2x6 letin ledger (in the gray running the lenght )
Gambrel Steel roof.
The land gets maybe 4" to 8" of snow-------- a YEAR! ::) May last 3 days??
Some wind but under 30 MPH. I am on the backside of a ridge.So out of the wind for the most part.
Good point on the nonload walls. Will need to pull the large headers d*
I know a lot of framers put cripples under each end of a rough window sill, but I don't really see the point... If you assemble the jacks to either side of the sill first, you'll get good nail penetration into the ends of the sill, and then the sheathing ties everything together further and will bear weight that is applied to the sill.
I'm not sure if I'm understanding your corners correctly (they look boxed in), but you might want to think in terms of easy insulating later on.
Maybe floor plan?
(https://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad5/schiadab85/20x20Floor.jpg)
Note to self, add insulating to ends before sheating. d* Good point.
Quote from: schiada on September 28, 2011, 06:16:43 PM
Note to self, add insulating to ends before sheating. d* Good point.
Use "L" shaped outside corners and partition backers , better for insulation factor.
If your worried about having something to nail your corner boards to do a modified "U" , a 2x6 corner stud , a 2x6 inner backer stud , and a outer 2x4 to provide backing for the siding / outside corner board. You can still insulate in a normal fashion behind outside corners and partition backers.
Headers 8 feet and longer requires two trimmers on each end.
If that square-ish thing in the bath room is a toilet, you should kick those two joist off layout so you don't have to head out the joist you'll have to cut to get the drain line in place. You can always add one joist if your worried about the slight over span you'll create in the one bay.
PEG is correct, you can save about $100 on wood cutting out the unnecessary studs
Read all about it here http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/publications/pdfs/building_america/26449.pdf (http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/publications/pdfs/building_america/26449.pdf)
Quote from: schiada on September 28, 2011, 06:11:50 PM
Maybe floor plan?
(https://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad5/schiadab85/20x20Floor.jpg)
On your long walls pull your layout from the outside corner , this way your corner sheathing piece is a full sheet , conforms to the IRC and well it's just better way to frame.
Inside the sheet rock can be cut to get into layout.
Drawing update. Let me know what you see? Thanks! ???
(https://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad5/schiadab85/s20x20.jpg)
(https://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad5/schiadab85/n20x20.jpg)
(https://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad5/schiadab85/e20x20.jpg)
(https://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad5/schiadab85/w20x20.jpg)
The big opening is for a barn door,it will slide to the side on track at top..
I see something connected to the headers for the windows, but no jack studs. They would need at lease one stud on each side of the header. Like you have for the door
...or the parts made by Simpson for the purpose. HH header hangers
(http://www.strongtie.com/graphics/products/large/177i-2011.gif)
Are those ledgers for an upper level on the longer sides? What sort of roof? Rafters exert outward horizontal loads that require consideration.
It would be nice to see dimensions on the drawings as it saves time instead of having to search the text for even the length and width of the building.
Thanks Don.Yes a loft floor.this will be a cut down 1 1/2 story . 20'x20'.
Yes will be using the simpson bracket.
Roof will be gambrel.
IIRC if it is more then 2' from top plate to the opening even on non load walls a header is req'd. They do show a boxed header in the wall chapter.
Don could you look at the first plans . With what you posted it seems that would be the way to do all the window openings?
Quote from: schiada on September 29, 2011, 07:00:22 PM
Don could you look at the first plans . With what you posted it seems that would be the way to do all the window openings?
I'd say yes , I'm not sure where you went with the second group of images / drawings.
Quote from: PEG688 on September 29, 2011, 07:57:02 PM
I'm not sure where you went with the second group of images / drawings.
I believe he was trying to implement the framing techniques from the link I posted and got a little confused.
schiada:You are on the right track. Start with the basic box with a roof and every time you have to put a hole in the side of that box you have to distribute the load from above to either side of that hole. That's what the header and jack studs do. Maybe that helps explain it better?
Quote from: Rob_O on September 29, 2011, 08:07:43 PM
I believe he was trying to implement the framing techniques from the link I posted and got a little confused.
schiada:You are on the right track. Start with the basic box with a roof and every time you have to put a hole in the side of that box you have to distribute the load from above to either side of that hole. That's what the header and jack studs do. Maybe that helps explain it better?
Ah, I see. I'm not a fan of , whats it called OVE framing. I see to many issues with nailing or attaching things inside building as it is. Base , casing , chair rail , crown, door jambs , etc etc.
I'd rather not build that way, set in my ways I guess.
Quote from: PEG688 on September 29, 2011, 09:01:14 PM
Ah, I see. I'm not a fan of , whats it called OVE framing. I see to many issues with nailing or attaching things inside building as it is. Base , casing , chair rail , crown, door jambs , etc etc.
I'd rather not build that way, set in my ways I guess.
The architect didn't tell the draftsman that the designer wanted beadboard and chair rail so the framing crew didn't know they needed to put in a nailer and now the trim people are pissed? Never happens! d*
Thanks all! I guess I will go back to the 60's when I came from? ::) I did not like the steel parts anyway.
Now what about the ends of the long and the short walls. ??? Seemed a little short on wood?
Quote from: schiada on September 29, 2011, 11:01:23 PM
Now what about the ends of the long and the short walls. ??? Seemed a little short on wood?
Not sure what you mean? This works for corners, ...
(https://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q305/djmbucket/construction/corner-studs.jpg)
Nice pic of my favorite corner, Don. And just to rephrase what others have already pointed out; when you mark the layout for that shorter inside wall, simply set the sill in place and pull your tape measure from the outside edge of the longer wall. Your OSB will line up and tie the corner together.
So,some more work with ends and some OSB. What do you think? Also up or down with the OSB? ???
(https://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh232/schiada/s20x20.jpg)
Need to fix one corner! My Bad!! d*
(https://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh232/schiada/w20x20.jpg)
As far as vertical or horizontal goes. IRC calls for one 4 x 8 vertical wall sheet of structural panel every 25 feet (??) of wall length. If one end of each wall is 4 foot wide and sheathed full height that fills the bill.
Thanks Don! I will work on that. All 4 sides? Right.
Something like this?
(https://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh232/schiada/s20x202.jpg)
You might want to read some of the IRC. Chapter 6 deals with wall construction. There's info in there on things like drilling holes and cutting sny notches in studs. A section in there covers wall bracing panels as I mentioned. Much may not apply as you have a small simple shape.
There can be potential issues with notching studs to accept a ledger for a loft floor, when combined with an upper stage knewall, stud grade lumber and rafter loads pushing outwards on the top of the notched stud. The larger the building the greater the potential issues. No time for me to get into that controversial topic right now as I'm heading out of town.
IRC 2009 can be found here. (http://www.ecodes.biz/ecodes_support/Free_Resources/Virginia2009/09Residential/09Residential_main.html) VA code but much the same in its basics as anywhere else. Those chapters can all be downloaded and saved.
Quote from: schiada on September 30, 2011, 11:56:15 PM
Thanks Don! I will work on that. All 4 sides? Right.
Something like this?
(https://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh232/schiada/s20x202.jpg)
Will it work / and does it meet code , are two very different items.
The code says " Nail all edges" so you need to add solid blocking so you can " nail all edges" , generally today we soldier sheet goods , mainly to reduce the amount of blocking that needs to be put in to achieve the " nail all edges" part of the code.
So your right hand side has issues , as does the top of the sheet on the LH side.
You could use 9' or 10 ' plywood of OSB , that might help some what.
If it's not getting inspected either of your ways of running the sheathing will result in a strong enough building , although you're going to a lot more work than is needs by chnaging directions of sheathing.
God this simple task is getting complicated with all the nuances of a simple shed. d*
Thanks! I am working out the OSB placment.I had not showed the blocking. My BAD! d* A little more work. And yes I would like to meet code.Blocking is 2x4.?
(https://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad5/schiadab85/20x20n-1.jpg)
Yes . 2x4 on the flat would work.
1x4 for your let in ledger will meet code, a let in 2x4 would not be as you'd need to cut more than 25 percent of the stud away to create the notch for it to nest into.
See the Letting in ledger thread .
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=1418.0
You might be able to read about that there.
Your window would be to close to the corner to meet code unless you use some Simpson hardware to create a alternate brace wall panel. The easiest way to meet the IRC is to use all full sheets on all outside corners. Un-cut full sheets , nailed on all edges. Pretty boring way to build , but it meets the IRC.
You'll have other hoop jumps as well with the IRC related to your foundation , or lack there of in the case of posts and pier foundations.
All of which are resolve-able with engineering.
Quote from: PEG688 on October 01, 2011, 03:37:27 PM
Your window would be too close to the corner to meet code unless you use some Simpson hardware to create a alternate brace wall panel. The easiest way to meet the IRC is to use all full sheets on all outside corners. Un-cut full sheets, nailed on all edges. Pretty boring way to build, but it meets the IRC.
Soooooo... if you were building that wall and meeting code was not a requirement how would you build that corner?
Quote from: Rob_O on October 01, 2011, 04:51:05 PM
Soooooo... if you were building that wall and meeting code was not a requirement how would you build that corner?
Just like he's drawn it , but I'd more than likely run my sheathing horizontally. No blocking.
Here are some parts of my plan from John. Are you saying this is not code for the ledger ? This is getting very fuzzy. ???
(https://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh232/schiada/Ownerwall.jpg)
Quote from: schiada on October 01, 2011, 08:41:30 PM
Here are some parts of my plan from John. Are you saying this is not code for the ledger ? This is getting very fuzzy. ???
(https://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh232/schiada/Ownerwall.jpg)
Below is a cut and paste of what Manhattan 42 wrote on my "Letting in ledger for floor joist " back on 14 April 2006 . He pointed out that you can't , by the code book , notch a stud beyond 25 percent of it's depth. So for a 2x4 wall the max depth would be 7/8" , for a 2x6 wall max depth 1 3/8".
So yes it is questionable to if John's drawing would pass the IRC as drawn.
Like I said you could review that old thread I linked to read about it yourself.
John had some input on that thread as well , and I guess he hasn't seen the need to change his detail. The place I built was drawn by a Architect , who was in fact the home owner as well , and he provided engineering from his Engineer for that project.
We bashed the subject around quite a bit, but in the end I think Manhattan 42 was right about a standard build and the depth of the notch.
manhattan42
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Re: letting in ledgers for floor joist.
« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2006, 19:23:57 »
I believe that what has occurred is that the research has indicated that notching bearing studs over 25% of their depth simply weakens their bearing capacity too much and that the 7/8" maximum notch depth for nominal 2x4 or 1 3/8" maximum notch depth for 2x6s is incidental.
I don't think it's correct to look at 1 3/8" and think it's almost 1 1/2" so why not 1 1/2". There's more to it than that.
The problem is that notched studs weaken the structure when done beyond 25% on bearing walls or 40% on non bearing walls.
So,what about going with 2x8 in that area? ??? That would work? d*
Easiest way to fix that, (as pointed out in the thread), is to plane the ledger down a little bit. If you don't have a thickness planer, maybe you know someone who does? We planed our ledgers down to 1 1/4'' to be safe. Otherwise you might be better off with 1x6 (I'm not sure if I'd trust a 1x4... ???) or something.
Like Ernest T said thin down a 2x6 to 1 1/4" , as it's the depth of the notch not the width that is the sticking point.
On using 1x material you'd be hard pressed to get a structural grade 1 x 4 or 6 , they'd be common or utility grade.
You could go to a 5/4 x 6 in say VG Fir that would be code complicate by expensive for a framing member. So planing down a 2x6 to make it thinnner is what I've done on another story and 1/2 that we built after that original build that I took photo's of for the forum.
I still think the "extra" 1/8" is a moot point , but if your going to argue with a building inspector or dept , it's like wrestling with a pig in the mud , your both going to get dirty , but the pig likes it!
That is a great idea? THANKS! [cool]
You just made my drawing hand very happy!
A planer? d* My bad! I think 2x6 planed would be better i my mind. If I had one.
Thanks for the link. That is a long read.
It shure would be great if their was list of thing to lookout for on the plans.
Well! removed some windows and installed bigger ones and added some panels. What do you think? And started thinking about the steel fireplace?
(https://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh232/schiada/Drawing4.jpg)
(https://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh232/schiada/Drawing3.jpg)
(https://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh232/schiada/Drawing2.jpg)
(https://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh232/schiada/Drawing1.jpg)
(https://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh232/schiada/Drawing5.jpg)
Maybe I missed it, but where is the design for the gambrel roof coming from?
Do you think that is a problem? John said just go to a truss builder and I would be good to go? I would not be building the truss system. ???
A truss factory is the place to go. Give them the plans or specs for everything else. They produce the engineering and make the trusses. When you pay them they give you the stamped drawings and the trusses. The stamped drawings are needed for the building permit.
It may not matter for a small place like yours, but I'd probably double the jack studs on any opening over 4'-5' on a load bearing wall.
I really like your drawings.. Some of the design is very similar to a place that we are just finishing up on. I need to get some pics..
Good. [cool] Now what do you think about the stud and sheating and blocking?
Also I am not a framer but am I looking at this stud plan wrong? d*
Thanks Bass. The big barn door is 6'4" but not in a load bearing wall. :D
Quote from: PEG688 on October 01, 2011, 10:48:33 PM
You could go to a 5/4 x 6 in say VG Fir that would be code complicate by expensive for a framing member.
What about 5/4 x 6 PT deck boards. I think the ones I used were stamped 'select'? ??? I know there were southern pine, but I'm not sure and don't want to crawl under the deck with a flashlight to check it out.
Quote from: MountainDon on October 03, 2011, 10:53:05 PM
What about 5/4 x 6 PT deck boards. I think the ones I used were stamped 'select'? ??? I know there were southern pine, but I'm not sure and don't want to crawl under the deck with a flashlight to check it out.
It would depend on where you lived I guess. I'd have to order SYP here in the PNW , and I wouldn't trust the 5/4 Spruce we stock around here for a ledger. We use it for paint grade exterior trim , corner boards , fascia , frieze, etc. And I pretty sure the 1x4 and 1x6 they stock is utility grade, we have some on the job I'm on , if I think of it I'll check the grade stamp on it tomorrow.
Also their is a opening from the two window wall to the loft joists.It is about 5'10". Can it be left open?