Taking the PEX plunge

MikeT · March 09, 2008, 10:21:27 PM

I have decided to go ahead and purchase the tools I need to install PEX into my beach house project. The "final straw", so to speak, was my wife deciding that she wants the basement in our home redone in a way that requires moving water supply lines. So between the two projects and some other things down the pike, I figure this will be a good investment.

So my question is: Should I purchase the crimping tool or the expanding tool? My understanding is the there are two systems. Is one far superior or is it personal preference? When all is said and done (connections, tools, etc), is one system cheaper?

Wirsbo is the only brand name I am familiar with. Any others to consider?

Thanks,
mt

MountainDon · March 09, 2008, 10:38:02 PM

Glenn has the Wirsbo IIRC.

The Wirsbo does seem to make some sense. Rather than clamp a band use the expander tool and have the joint continually trying to tighten itself. At least that's the theory.

NM_Shooter has a PEX tool too. Not sure what type/brand.

March 09, 2008, 11:38:24 PM

Wirsbo may be difficult to find... they have a training program and supposedly only sell to trained people. I suppose that might help keepupthe quality of the work...

When I was looking at the tools a year ago I thought the ones that used the SSC, stainless steel clamps, looked good. The tool did more than one size without needing adapters or inserts.

Lots of PEX info HERE.

glenn kangiser · March 09, 2008, 11:47:24 PM

That is right about the Wirsbo/Uponor. Supposedly only sell to trained contractors -- about an hour or so training. I'm not sure if that is strictly enforced or if they have options.

I like the stretch on as it only tries to get tighter. I don't know how well the other works. Fittings are pretty cheap but I haven't bought much in a year or two.

rakuz66 · March 10, 2008, 08:35:23 AM

I have the compression fittings in my camp and they work ok, but if I had to do it over I would use the tools.

March 10, 2008, 12:54:08 PM

I bought the WaterPex crimp tool for about $85. One tool I think crimps 3/8, 1/2, 3/4 and 1 inch sizes. I like it. The crimp tool definitely applies a crimp tighter than anything you can achieve with a hose clamp.

http://www.watts.com/pro/divisions/potablepexplumbing/learnabout/learnabout_cinchclamp.asp

They also sell a RingMaster crimp tool which uses different jaw sizes for different pex sizes.

Tom

MountainDon · March 10, 2008, 01:47:08 PM

Tom,

That's the type I was talking about; bands made of 304 stainless. One tool, no changing jaws, just different bands for the different sizes of PEX tubing.

Ndrmyr · March 10, 2008, 02:30:42 PM

Hmmm,

This is going to make it tough. Should I sell my PEX Reddi-Strip Stapler?

http://www.petermangone.com/Reddi-Strip%20Stapler%20Description.php

Or, buy the additional PEX tools. Since I have a long standing history of only allowing
tools to part my company when they are pried from my cold stiff fingers, this
could be strong breach of protocol.

Decisions, Decisions....nice thread guys.

MikeT · March 10, 2008, 03:26:53 PM

Thanks, folks. I was just casting about Craigslist, looking for PEX tools, and ended up talking with a journeyman plumber who was hanging it up and becoming an inspector. He swears by the Wirsbo expander. He noted, as many of you have, that the physics of expanding the PEX and slipping the fittings into it and then letting the tube suck back around it gives a great fit.

I am interested in hearing what Scott A has to say.

mt

March 10, 2008, 04:10:21 PM

Wirsbo hand expander tools
http://www.pexsupply.com/Categories.asp?cID=559&brandid=

heads only
http://www.pexsupply.com/Categories.asp?cID=562&brandid=

and their version of the CinchClamp tool
http://www.pexsupply.com/Categories.asp?cID=560&brandid=

ScottA · March 10, 2008, 04:56:03 PM

I've never used the expander only the crimp type. Never had any problems with the stuff though it doesn't look as good as a copper job. Use the manifold and home run method to avoid joints in walls. It's a pretty good system but it does use more pipe. I'm doing the cabin in copper just to be difficult since I'm still old school by nature.

MountainDon · March 10, 2008, 05:09:13 PM

One of the reasons I'm considering PEX is the available 3/8" tubing. I want to truly minimize the amount of water, hot especially, that runs through the pipe to the fixtures. I know... I'm probably being anal about that.

NM_Shooter · March 10, 2008, 05:41:09 PM

Quote from: MountainDon on March 09, 2008, 11:38:24 PM
Wirsbo may be difficult to find... they have a training program and supposedly only sell to trained people. I suppose that might help keepupthe quality of the work...

When I was looking at the tools a year ago I thought the ones that used the SSC, stainless steel clamps, looked good. The tool did more than one size without needing adapters or inserts.

Lots of PEX info HERE.

I have the "standard connection method" from Don's link. I bought almost all of my supplies from here: www.houseneeds.com

They also have a tool rental program, but I knew that i was going to want to keep these, so I just bought them. I seem to recall that the crimp tool and gauge were about $120 per size.

So I have both methods in my house... the wirsbo expander type, and the crimp type. Wirsbo was installed when my house was built. I went crimp because I could not get access to the wirsbo tool. I found one on ebay for ~$800 if I remember right, but then I could not get the fittings. I actually think the crimp type provides a better mechanical connection, but I have no evidence.

Don't sweat this decision. It is a fantastic solution. Keep in mind that the connections insert into the tubing, and that they will restrict your flow somewhat, but the 1/2" stuff still flows to my showers great. The tubing also expands and shrinks, so put a little bit of service length in your tubing. You gotta love this stuff. You could do a 300' length with no joints in the middle anywhere. no corrosion. no cold solder sweat joints. stretches when it freezes. If you crimp it, you can heat it with a heat gun and it re-links at a molecular level back to new. It is so fast and easy to use, it easily cut my plumbing time by 1/4. Also available in red and blue so you can easily keep hot/cold seperate. Thermally it is also more insulative than copper.

That was actually one of my favorite part of my addition builds.

Good luck!

(Hey Don... can you get standard fittings to go to sinks and etc. that terminate with the 3/8 tubing? By the time the connector fills the inside of the tube, you are really restricting the flow. The difference in 20 feet of 3/8 vs 1/2 is only about three pints of fluid, but your flow is way better with the 1/2)

peternap · March 10, 2008, 06:03:24 PM

I guess I need to sit down and study up on PEX. Never used it but I am thinking hard about using it for my gas lines. Is the connection (Crimp or insert) the same for propane?

March 10, 2008, 06:27:38 PM

Hmmm... I don't know nuthin' about PEX for gas! Is it approved?

-f-

Woodsrule · March 10, 2008, 06:49:23 PM

Hey MikeT,

I bought the PEX tools a couple of years ago (crimped fittings) and love them. I have re-routed 3/4 heating lines and they worked flawlessly. The advantage I see is that the fittings are available at home depot, Lowes and other places and the go/no go gauge is foolproof. Just my two cents, but it has worked fine for me. Good luck, Tony

peternap · March 10, 2008, 07:06:18 PM

Quote from: NM_Shooter on March 10, 2008, 06:27:38 PM
Hmmm... I don't know nuthin' about PEX for gas! Is it approved?

-f-

Maybe not. I was thinking Desdawg mentioned it here:
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=3377.msg36580;topicseen#msg36580

But in re-reading it, he only says flexible,

MountainDon · March 10, 2008, 07:20:41 PM

Quote from: NM_Shooter on March 10, 2008, 05:41:09 PM
(Hey Don... can you get standard fittings to go to sinks and etc. that terminate with the 3/8 tubing? By the time the connector fills the inside of the tube, you are really restricting the flow. The difference in 20 feet of 3/8 vs 1/2 is only about three pints of fluid, but your flow is way better with the 1/2)

My RV is completely plumbed with 3/8" PB tubing. (That's the type with issues, not sold anymore). The fittings are inserted into the tubing just like PEX. Considering the applications and the water conservation mode we subscribe to with the RV, flow has never been a problem for us. It might be a different matter if we included laundry machines and/or dishwashers in our plans. Even then, the cabin is for relaxation... nothing in a hurry.

HOWEVER, it is more difficult to find fittings, the choice is more limited, sometimes you have to adapt up, so in all likelihood I'd go for the 1/2" tubing. Just expressing my true desires.

MountainDon · March 10, 2008, 07:22:42 PM

Quote from: peternap on March 10, 2008, 07:06:18 PM
But in re-reading it, he only says flexible,

Hmmm. I wonder what desdawg used?

NM_Shooter · March 10, 2008, 07:29:15 PM

Probably the metal flex gas line.
But that stuff can not be used for penetrations through walls or appliance cabinets. There can be no chance of it rubbing against even a hole in the sheetrock. My neighbor's high dollar house just got shut down for code violations where flex line was used to penetrate through a wall!

-f-

March 11, 2008, 12:46:59 AM

Flexible approved natural gas and propane piping

http://www.gasflex.com/htms/english.htm They call it "Excel PEX" ... it's an aluminum tube coated inside and out with cross linked polyethylene (PEX) So, PEX can be used for propane... but it's a special PEX.

also...
http://www.omegaflex.com/trac/whatis.htm

desdawg · March 11, 2008, 08:27:49 AM

I think if I remember correctly the material I used for gas was called Tite-flex. Same principle, different manufacturer. PEX is for water. I bought the crimp tools but I haven't used them yet. The biggest selling point for me was the fact that the material will expand and contract rather than burst when it freezes. I will be using it when Spring comes and I get back to the mountains. I didn't have time last year.

MikeT · March 13, 2008, 07:43:36 AM

I have searched high and low for used Wirsbo expanding tools, and so far I have come up empty. While was was on that search, I was looking at the crimping tools and came upon this option--a mini crimper:

http://www.pexcrimper.com/index.html

This is definitely a cheaper alternative, but I do not know if it is a wise alternative....

mt

John_M · March 13, 2008, 09:22:42 AM

I know you don't want to buy new, but think about it. There may be quite a market for a used one. Maybe you could buy new one and then when you are done, sell it on a site like ebay or craigslist?

glenn kangiser · March 13, 2008, 09:25:20 AM

Looks like these people will sell it to you.

http://www.pexsupply.com/Categories.asp?cID=559&brandid=

Maybe you can get all of your stuff there. I can probably get it through the local guy here, but I paid more for the same tool here and had to do the training. The training is no big deal - the instructions cover it and we can go over it.

The manual one is fine -- works fast.