CountryPlans Forum

Joe Smith started the day early having set his alarm clock (MADE IN JAPAN) for 6am.
While his coffeepot (MADE IN CHINA) was perking,
he shaved with his electric razor (MADE IN HONG KONG)
He put on a dress shirt (MADE IN SRI LANKA),
designer jeans (MADE IN SINGAPORE)
and tennis shoes (MADE IN KOREA).
After cooking his breakfast in his new electric skillet (MADE IN INDIA)
he sat down with his calculator! (MADE IN MEXICO)
to see how much he could spend today.
After setting his watch (MADE IN TAIWAN)
to the radio (MADE IN INDIA)
he got in his car (MADE IN GERMANY)
(filled it with GAS from Saudi Arabia)
and continued his search for a good paying AMERICAN JOB.
At the end of yet another discouraging and fruitless day checking his Computer Made In Malaysia), Joe decided to relax for a while. He put on his sandals (MADE IN BRAZIL)
poured himself a glass of wine (MADE IN FRANCE)!
and turned on his TV (MADE IN INDONESIA),
and then wondered why he can't find a good paying job in.
AMERICA . . .

That thing's been floating around long enough that half the countries mentioned wouldn't be in the running if it were today.

One thing that is not floating around is the fact that our corporations and government are selling us down the river and we are helping them do it.  

Corporations want maximum profits so go overseas or across the border with assistance of  their cronies in government who makes it better to do that.

The public wants cheap stuff and good jobs - unfortunately we can't have both.  We reward the corporate bad behavior by buying their cheap imported stuff, so the jobs stay overseas.  We can't afford stuff made in America because we all want the maximum amount of stuff we can get for the few dollars we have.  We can't get good jobs because we buy cheap stuff.  The government won't protect our jobs because corporate interests, who are making the big bucks, have too many people in their pockets in big government.  They know if they take care of them they don't have to worry about what happens to us.

I love my new Chinese computer. :-/

So what is the solution, it seems we all have the questions, and we can see the problems, but the solution eludes us all.

We are not in control of the situation so can't effect much of a change.  The ones who control the situation don't want it changed.

One answer is to find a niche market so you can make a bit better living than some.  If you can work for yourself, it is possible to expense many things off if you try.

The other answer is, learn to like beans, tortillas and rice. :-/

The way to remedy the situation is to hold the politicos to account. Use your right to vote, get on their case, ring them, write and e-mail, visit their office, make sure they know you're not a happy camper. Start at the local level and work up. The problem is that large parts of the population are lethargic when it comes to political issues. They take little interest in what their leaders are doing; politicians know this and take advantage of it. These folk are elected by and to serve the people, the sooner they are made to understand that the better.
BTW this is not an issue that is peculiar to the US.

[size=12]  Joneys  great minds must think alike , I was just going to send you a PM to have a look at this thread . As I was wondering what you guys ,and gals , down under thought about this very issue.

     I figured some of the same things would apply to your country as well. And we are a fat lazy nation here in the USA.  

 Grass roots is the only way it will work, it will be slow going , and may never happen as each generation seems to expect more while doing less.

Henry Ford  , IIRC said if you create a welfare system you will create a welfare class . That much is a proven fact now .

  One other way is to buy local /sell local when and where ever possible .

I look around my house and see so many things I've built for our place and as a poor workin stiff carpenter I never could afford solid wood furinture thats for sure.  I'd have some Ikea plastic crap.

 Barting used to work 100 years ago , a carpenter could trade striaght across with a doctor , those days are gone. Why ???? Cuz some lawyer figured a way to mess up the system.

 So end of rant , hows things builder wise down under , EH :)     [/size]

Pegg, I have been keeping an eye on the forum but have been a bit wary about jumping in. I sort of figure that local issues are for you folk to deal with, it's not my place to tell you how to run your country. Where stuff overlaps I would be more inclined to chuck my two cents in. Having said that though I think we are not too different from you folk over there, pretty much the same issues. Politics and politico's are much the same worldwide, some good, some bad and the odd tyrant thrown in to liven up the broth. I would agree with you on the "Grass roots is the only way it will work" people need to be on top of what their leaders are doing and hold them to account when they mess up. I'm not so sure about the generation thing though. My way of looking at it is, that each generation is a product of the generation before. Good quality education and proper parental guidance is probably the key there.
Again, the welfare system is somewhere our ideas would differ. I personally believe that there should always be a support system in place, in every society there will always be some that fall through the cracks. It is true that there will be some abuse of such a system, but properly run with checks and balances this can be minimised. I think it is a small price to pay for a fair and decent society.
The trade issue is much the same here, lot of cheap imports competing with local manufactures. Where these people can't compete they go out of business, people out of work, more cheap imports, on and on. It seems that the large companies that go offshore don't realise they are actually cutting there own throats, it's all about the bottom line "this year". Now I have no problem with free trade as long as that trade is fair. Where companies are using slave labour and unfair practises they should be taxed hard and heavy, tariffs put on their products to price them near local rates. You are right about the way to deal with that, stop buying their product, unless they play fair. Once their bottom line starts to haemorrhage they will soon wake up. Pretty much just boils down to greed.
I think you and I are alike as far as the poor working stiff goes. I tend to work on the principal of if I can't afford it, I either make it myself or I don't have it. I have never felt the need to have a new car every year or the latest bee's knees fancy dress. Mind you, I don't begrudge the folk that can or care to. As long as I can get from A to B and I'm warm and comfortable I'm happy. Besides there's a lot of satisfaction in making something yourself. I think, something you can relate to. One things for sure, if I was turning out quality stuff like your's I'd be pretty chuffed. Mother too, she's been keeping an eye on your pics and I think she has plans for my workshop when it's done. Looks like I could be taking up a new trade soon.
The house is progressing steadily. Although I am supposed to be retired, work commitments keep getting in the way; we are not to far off moving in. Yes, I know, ;D  the web page is lagging a bit but I will get on to it any minute now and bring it up to date.

  [size=12] Jonsey On the generational thing here in the USA what I see is kids , parents  want more done for them / given to them without having to work for it .   Alot of our school issues are kids who should have been kicked out as they are more disruption which in turn holds the whole class up.   But little Johnny's  got his rights which by law his parents are going to get for him.

 Welfare is so screwed up it needs to be trashed and re invented.  I also feel folks need a hand up / help some times .  The problem with the our system is set up if a young Mother wants to get a job and does , but then make s $20.00 to much for one pay period , she loses all her benifits the next week / pay period . Why not let her earn more for a fix period to get ahead then slowly reduce the benifit amt. over a again, a set, slow period . Makes to much sense , to hard to manage,  bla bla bal ,  so the powers that be say.

 Jees fix it!!!  Status Quo is not working  >:(,   like  say with our health care , make congress and the senate have to use my health care and it would be fixed pronto. ;)

 I argee on trade as well ,level the play pen , but how do you force another country to do that?  Tariffs maybe :-/ , don't trade with them , not sure that works Cuba is a example of that  :-/.

 And I don't begrude folks that "have" either.   They're the ones that hire me in a way . Reagans trickle down policys worked / work , IMO.   Maybe that dumb as well if you slant the view .

   One line of your post I'm not sure of is the  what  is "chuffed"   , I think it's a good thing as you mentioned quality stuff  , so thanks for that , :) just don't get the Aussie chuffed??  Is that a good thing ?


   Retired and work commitments now that I understand , not that I'll ever be able to retire , but I know a lot of folks who are busier after they retire than before  ;)

 Thanks for listen , have a good day mate , PEG         [/size]

There was an interesting discussion on the local radio here today. Professor Robert Hudson from Boston University, talking about welfare and healthcare in the US. This link will take you to an MP3 download of that programe.
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/lifematters/stories/2006/1611140.htm

Hey, barter is still working a bit here in the mountains - mostly with my own circle of friends, but they are out there if you work at it.  I trade welding for dump truck loads of rock, about 15 so far, milling for logs, old equipment for logs, dump truck for a TD15, something sometime for a generator, crane work for rock, remove wrong deck steel sheeting to keep it, etc.  Never stop making deals--old advice I read somewhere.  My buddies and I always try to keep each others needs in mind and we don't fret the small stuff-

Yeah sorry Pegg, not sure where that word comes from, either UK or Ozzy slang for "pleased with the job",

;D

Just thinking Pegg, maybe we are not so far apart on welfare after all. I'll have a chew on that tonight and maybe have a go at clarifying my thoughts in another post in the next day or two.

[size=12] Out in the San Juan Islands they used to use San Juan dollars , like 8  or 10 years  ago. Locals tradin with locals .  Worked well inside that small island community :)

 I'm not sure if they still do that , haven't worked a San Juan job in  some years, which is good , it was fun but  ::) a lot of travel time , pretty travel , slow ferry rides but still your not home in 20 mins.   [/size]

QuoteThere was an interesting discussion on the local radio here today. Professor Robert Hudson from Boston University, talking about welfare and healthcare in the US. This link will take you to an MP3 download of that programe.
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/lifematters/stories/2006/1611140.htm

 [size=12]Thanks for the link Jonsey I'll give it a listen ASAP  :)  gettin late here got to get me beauty sleep,  ;)[/size]

Good thread guys...

I think we have to keep trade open but have some control over multinationals who can warp the markets and control supply. I put big government and big business in the same part of the playpen. They can both start to think of themselves as all powerful and all knowing. This leads to illusions of imperial grandeur and big dumb, expensive mistakes.

As long as there is open competition on a level playing field people don't generally stay puffy for long. Getting the field level for the politicos is harder than it is for the business folks... IMHO we need to drain money away from the Feds and give it back to the state and local actors. Not easy to do.

I'm much happier with local politicos than I am with the national actors. Same with the business folks.

The Chinese and the Indians deserve to get wealthier... and they will. It's not a zero sum game so that doesn't mean the money has to come out of American pockets.

But workers today have to be flexible and ready to learn new stuff. The image of working for a company all your life - and then getting the gold watch... not sure I believed that even when I was a kid.

[size=12]     The Professor seems as lost as our politians , out of touch with day to day life.   Typical of over educated Ivy league folks who live inside a protected system , in his case BU.

 Solutions will come when working class people wake the He dbl hockey sticks up , and demand that elected officals  deliver bills/ legislation  that will work , real time /in  life.

   What I find very interesting is he is in your country to speak about our system , I hope for your country's sake no one listens to him  ::) Unless he's just there for a chuckle  ;)

 Thanks for the link , PEG    [/size]

At one time over 90% of American workers were employed in agriculture. Now that's down to about 3%. Despite that, the US is still the largest producer of food in the world (Brazil is closing in fast though).

The percentage of American workers employed in manufacturing has also gone down, but the US remains one of the world's largest producers of manufactured goods. US output of manufactured goods has grown steadily over the past 50 years and continues to grow. We import more goods from overseas but we also export more. But contrary to what many people believe, although the percentage of workers employed in manufacturing has gone down over the long term, the total number has not. There are about the same number of manufacturing workers today as there was in 1950.

How can the US be producing so much more with fewer workers? The answer is that we've become much more productive... plows, tractors, fertilizers, gps tracking, assembly lines, interstate highways, intermodal shipping containers, robotics, cell phones, computers, etc, etc allow each worker to do much more than before.

We are not losing jobs to overseas competition, we are losing them to productivity gains. And that is a good thing.  Productivity gains in agriculture freed up workers for manufacturing, enabling America to become a manufacturing powerhouse. Productivity gains in manufacturing freed up workers to enter information technology fields. Productivity gains there free up workers for pharmaceutical, biotech and nanotech occupations.

Another significant factor is that Americans are shifting spending from consumer goods to healthcare, education, entertainment and travel. Maybe we are finally starting to realize that having more stuff doesn't make us happier. As the spending goes, the jobs follow.

I would have been pretty happy to have had a job I could retire from--and live on comfortably in the mean time.  Didn't get one until I was 40.  And a year later was laid off for the first of a bunch of times.

More productive--well, yes, but in addition--more components coming from overseas, and probably not a few off the books workers.

Too bad the high tech commercial farmers can't grow food that has quality and flavor.  The garbage they grow can't even begin to compete with home farm or most small organic farmers quality.  Commercial fertilizer blows it up well and makes lots of it though.

I hate those masses of vegetable flesh that look like tomatoes -most restaurants put them on hamburgers but they don't taste anywnere near like something you would want to eat.

QuoteHow can the US be producing so much more with fewer workers? The answer is that we've become much more productive... plows, tractors, fertilizers, gps tracking, assembly lines, interstate highways, intermodal shipping containers, robotics, cell phones, computers, etc, etc allow each worker to do much more than before.

We are not losing jobs to overseas competition, we are losing them to productivity gains.

Very intersting thread. A futurist wrote years ago that eventually, the few would become so productive that many of us would never have to work at all, and nobody would have to work for 20-30 years like we do now. Will the time come when it becomes legitimate to be only a consumer, and not produce anything but demand in the marketplace?  Maybe we're almost there already. We've moved a long way from the days of charity, when individuals in the community, acting alone or through local churches or service organizations, voluntarily gave the fruits of their labor to those in need.  Now we subscribe to the theory of entitlements, where all are entitled to the basics of life provided through a government bureaucracy, whether the recipients ever produce anything tangible or not. Certainly some things, like Pegg's handmade furniture, the unique product of his hand and eye, will always be scarce because the supply is limited to what one man can build in one lifetime. But in the case of mass produced food, clothing, even shelter, have we arrived at the point that the economy of their scale of production makes it practical to actually give them away? Or have we just lost sight of the true cost of these things?

Quote

Quotel  

  Certainly some things, like Pegg's handmade furniture, the unique product of his hand and eye, will always be scarce because the supply is limited to what one man can build in one lifetime.



   [size=12]Thanks Harry  :)

 I'd like to ask you all about marketing , as in how should / could I go about marketing / selling those type of items ?

 I have in the past sold out of a small shop locally , very few items as the shop was small so exposure was limited.  I've thought about ebay  , craigs list but see to many stumbling blocks .  Shipping stuff / crating / damage etc in transit .

 I've joined a local woodworkers guild just this past month so that may lead to something who knows .

But if not , and this is a "Made in USA" thread  ;)   Anyone have marketing experience / back ground that they might share ?

 Thanks in advance , PEG[/size]

PEG:

Art and large material objects don't sell well on the Internet. However, a book or video DVD about how to build (and sell) artistic furniture or work of any kind does sell.

The product needs to have a high perceived value, be cheaply reproducible and easy to ship... then you can break out of the local market into the niche groups that can be reached by Ebay, a website, etc.

The title is important... Here's one:

Glenn should do a video on "Dirt Cheap Home Building Secrets" - maybe I could do some drawings for it... That would sell.

Sounds interesting, John.  Maybe we should work something up.  How about where do we start?

QuoteToo bad the high tech commercial farmers can't grow food that has quality and flavor.  The garbage they grow can't even begin to compete with home farm or most small organic farmers quality.

You may be right, I wouldn't know, but most people don't care. They're happy with the supermarket standard. And for people who do care, home-grown quality can be found, although they may have to look a bit harder to find it. They still benefit from other productivity enhancements such as effecient transportation systems that allow organic produce to be delivered fresh to population centers.

QuoteA futurist wrote years ago that eventually, the few would become so productive that many of us would never have to work at all, and nobody would have to work for 20-30 years like we do now. Will the time come when it becomes legitimate to be only a consumer, and not produce anything but demand in the marketplace?.... in the case of mass produced food, clothing, even shelter, have we arrived at the point that the economy of their scale of production makes it practical to actually give them away? Or have we just lost sight of the true cost of these things?

That future has arrived in a couple of the oil-rich gulf states where high oil production and prices have resulted in very high output per capita. From this article... http://www.slate.com/id/2124497/?nav=tap3 ...

QuoteOnly 17 percent of the population of Dubai, for instance, is local. The rest are foreign workers. You won't find gulf Arabs waiting on tables or, for that matter, managing restaurants. You will find precious few working for travel agents or hotels or anywhere other than the cushiest of government positions.

Who can blame them? With oil prices at record highs, there is little incentive for gulf Arabs to get their hands dirty, or even a bit dusty. Let's say you are lucky enough, for instance, to be a citizen of Qatar, one of the richest of the gulf states. The government will pay for your education and then provide you with a generous monthly stipend for life. They'll give you a plot of land and build you a house. Oh, and there are no taxes.

It makes me wonder how fulfilling that kind of life can possibly be where everything is handed to you. Same would apply to being born rich. I hope that if/when we do reach the point where most material goods can be produced without effort, that people turn their energy towards producing creative output of all kinds.

QuotePEG:

Art and large material objects don't sell well on the Internet. However, a book or video DVD about how to build (and sell) artistic furniture or work of any kind does sell.

The product needs to have a high perceived value, be cheaply reproducible and easy to ship... then you can break out of the local market into the niche groups that can be reached by Ebay, a website, etc.

The title is important... Here's one:

Glenn should do a video on "Dirt Cheap Home Building Secrets" - maybe I could do some drawings for it... That would sell.

[size=12]I see this as one step closer to the Countryplans.com TV Show I predicted last year![/size]

The AFL-CIO (not exactly an unbiased souce, but they could be right here) has a paper out saying that the big importing retailers' association is fighting hard against greater port security--it would mean that their containers would have to be inspected/screened at least randomly, both at the port of origin and the U.S. port.

So part of our throwaway economy is fed by lowered security at the ports.  And we raised a fuss about an American subsidiary of a Dubai (but not its predecessor British) conglomerate running the day-to-day operation of the ports--not, incidently, including port security.

Yep, they're mostly aiming this at Wal-Mart, but the association is RILA, the Retail Industry Leader's Association, and it probably includes a handful of big box stores, and probably some wannabees as well--.pdf alert.

http://www.aflcio.org/corporatewatch/walmart/upload/walmart_unchecked_0406.pdf

Quote

 
 Just thinking Pegg, maybe we are not so far apart on welfare after all. I'll have a chew on that tonight and maybe have a go at clarifying my thoughts in another post in the next day or two.

 [size=12] Hey Jonesy :)  You chewed on this long enough to share your thoughts ?  

 Mind ya I'm not rushin ya  :)just curious  ;)

 Have a great day mate  :)

PEG

    [/size]  

Sorry Pegg,
I did start working on that project but it started to turn into a book, I need to whittle it down a bit but I'm afraid that won't be soon. Visits to the computer and forum have been and will be fleeting over the next month or so. The cockies around here will insist on breaking the tractors and it would seem that I'm the only one that can fix them. Don't know what they are going to do when I finally kick the bucket, the whole place will probably come to a screeching halt. ;D

You and I mate-- seems the world revolves around us.  You can be the next closest planet, PEG. ;D

There's a big crafts fair in Nashville this weekend.  First of three.  A handful of people selling furniture type stuff--some boxes (from roughly a 4" cube to something 6 feet tall) with stained garden gnomes or nymphs holding up chests of drawers (they may come to the fall one)--some bark-on willow--chairs and such--and some fine wood/fine finish/generally nice design pieces.

I don't know how they do.  Well enough that they keep coming.  And especially the people in the last category are very happy to hand out their cards for future reference.

I was thinking about this the other day.  Do you remeber when Walmart was all "Made in America" and had banners all over the store - "American Made!"...I wonder where those banners are.  I don't see them anymore.  But what I do notice about my neighborhood Wallyworld, is that there is a lot of plastic junk in there that falls apart.  A little while back I bought an anniversary clock, that even looked like plastic, but said on the box - "metal base, porcelin face"...and lo and behold when I opened it t was all cheap plastic.  The batteries didn't even fit, and I scraped it up trying to jam them in - before I finally took it back and demanded my money back.  But...cheap is cheap.  Why did I buy it in the first place?  Why would I rather spend $20 at Walmart, than $80. at the craft shop in the village?  Hmmm.... Do you really think people are going to pay MORE for the same product?  Of course, my point was, it's not the same product.  It's of a lower quality, for sure...but....most people won't be able to get over the fact...it is CHEAPER! And how on earth can we compete with that??  Do any of you want to trade places with a worker who makes .60 cents an hour?  Would you help your boss fight against foriegn imports by taking a drastic paycut?  I'm sure Walmart sold millions of those plastic clocks last Christmas.  And I'm sure they had a few hundred returned.  But they sold MILLIONS.

Not one of my favorite places.  Haven't been in one for years, in fact.

Although I think they are the poster child for lousy retailing operations.

There are other places nearly as bad, some of which we probably all go to.  

I do keep forgetting to go to our local merchants, some of whom do a pretty good job.  (but we don't have a bookstore!, so I go places that do)

I had a hard time deciding whether to put this link in the "National Debt" thread or this one... I guess it could go both places.  
http://informationclearinghouse.info/article12977.htm

When we were flying to Mexico about 8 years ago, the Air Traffic Controller was earning $.50 an hour.  No wonder we cant keep a job here.  Our Corporations will go wherever they can to maximize profits, so don't feel bad if all you can afford on your earnigs is foreign made stuff.

You should have seen the nice state of the art Motorola plant in Chihuahua.  :-/

Fuel prices will take care of some of that.  ;)

Also, last I heard containers were stacking up on the west coast--i.e., one sort of has to factor in dead-heading the containers back to Asia.  Won't apply as much to Mexico, though.

(remind me not to fly to a country where air traffic controllers earn that little--especially if, and it may well be true, that the personality traits I found in the ex-PATCO people are what make good air traffic controllers)

(PATCO = Professional Air Traffic Controllers union--the one that Reagan disolved--the people who didn't go back were pretty interesting.  Actually I buy bells from one of them--another used to wear his "Give PATCO and Hinkley another chance" t-shirt into what he hoped were Reagan lovers bars)

Amanda,
I have looked at many of those containers stacking up as a good thing, Cheap housing! There are many ideas available out on the web to make use of them and they are already engineered structures, too bad this is Southern ( communist) California were nothing cheap can be done because there is no one that would be able to pull cash out of your pocket if you made it with cheap materials.  

True.  And I know some people who had their stuff brought in one when they moved from California--after a year, it may have been cheaper than renting a mini-storage.

But then they have to be manufactured and delivered as new containers to the Asian ports.