Framing the gable walls in a 20' wide 1 1/2 story

[BigMish]

I don't find any information on framing the gable walls in the plans so here are some questions I have:
Are they framed with 2x6s?
I assume they would be positioned like regular studs (perpendicular to the plates), if so how are the end trusses built up to 5 ½" (or 3 ½ if the studs are 2x4s) in order to serve as nailers for these studs?
I studied the method used in Nash's DIY Homebuilding and the last method (where a ceiling nailer is nailed to the collar tie) which would work but the gussets would get in the way of the nailer....

Thanks, Mischa

[PEG688]

MTL 2x6's framed under your  gable truss,  I don't have that plan so it's guess.

This is a ballon framed gable wall with 2x12 rafters , your truss's should be some what similar I'd think.



 


The way I do it is loft ( a boat builders term ) / layout , the gable end on the floor then frame it laying down , lift the wall the rafters  or truss would go right over the top of the wall.



 This one as it wasn't a ballon framed gable end we did the roof then framed in the 2x6 gable wall under it , so it depends on your plans / project, it aslo might depend on how many people you'd have to raise the wall . On the balloned one we had wall jacks , and just two of us . So that would be a condideration as well.

[BigMish]

So the situation is much more similar to your second example. While the cabin is balloon framed, the rafters of the truss are oriented parallel to the gable wall. I'd prefer to erect the trusses and then build the gable walls in. The attached image is the only way I can envision this. However, as you see on the left hand side of the image, the studs would be largely unsupported. If I added nailers (as I did in red on the right) that would support the studs but this wouldn't actually work as the gussets would interfere with their placement (done in blue on the right). I suppose I could have ply wood spacers made of the same depth plywood as the gussets and attach the nailers to those. That would work but I'm not sure about the structural integrity of that and if it's what the architect (John , if I'm not mistaken) had in mind.

.M

[PEG688]

That would work Mish, You could just hold the gusset short of the bottom 2x6 by 2"   ( technically 1 1/2" ) then it would not interfere with the 2x6 (in red ).  

The other thing which your scetch up detail does not show is that red 2x6 could / would  stick out the 1 1/2" past the lower studs tand become sheetrock / ceiling of choice backing , if you did it as shown it would be in plane / line with the bottom of the 2 x6 that would be the ceiling.  


So your on the right track with your thinking.
 

[BigMish]

I was thinking of the (red) nailers as being 2x4s so they wouldn't stick out, but yes, you're right, a 2x6 there could serve that function.

I just received a used copy of Wagner's "House Framing" from Amazon and he uses a different method to solve the same problem: he cuts angled notches at the ends of the studs to meet with the rafters. Are there any real advantages or deficiencies of either of these two methods (the one I illustrated and his)?

BTW, PEG, have you had the chance to play around with Sketch Up at all?

.M

[PEG688]

His methord is three cuts , one of which should be finished with a hand saw, and you'll still need to add a S/R backer and a inspector would MTL want the stud bays fire blocked , and you'll either have to gusset the entire lenght of rafter , or have two different depth knotchs to cut.

It would give a bit of added stiffness to the gable rafter , but if you run your exterior sheathing to catch the rafter/ tie the rafter to the studs , that added stiffness is not needed. And would be exceeded by the sheathing tie together / in .

No I haven't looked at setch up yet.  

[BigMish]

I think I'll stick with the nailer variation. Instead of modifying the gussets I think it's probably better to modify the nailers to accommodate the gussets.

As such , the following is the method that I propose to build the gable wall and frame a  picture window and gable-end vent.

[PEG688]

You'll need sheet rock backing over those blue plywood gussets , up in the corners above the windows where two sheets meet. You could get away with floating the S/R (no nailers ) down lower . BUT MTL those spaces in the backing will be where the joints / meet edges , of your sheet rock will fall.

I think that's called Murphy's law , Mister Murphy likes to visit everytime you , or I , give him a chance.

IMO cut the gusset 1 3/4"  (1 1/2" if you want to fight it materials have a way of growing / getting in the way of each other, remember your not building a cabinet / panio / violin  )  short , [highlight]run the nailer full lenght[/highlight], that lil bit of gusset is not important to the overall truss strenght , your nailing pattern / lenght of gusset / proper spacing of gusset is where the strength is gained.  

The other thing you do gain with the full lenght nailer is a sort of strong back , it will make that gable wall more ridgid , think about those two pieces with how the grain orentations relate to one another, you should nail the nailer wheather it's a 2x4 or 2x6 thru the rafter / bottom truss cord with 16 d nails , as well as down into the stud tops , now you've really added strength two was by tieing the nailer to the truss cord . So a win win , stronger , adquate nailers , top plate all with one piece.  

G/L PEG

[John Raabe]

BigMish is doing some very nice diagrams with Google SketchUp I believe.

Check out this thread on the possibility of using SketchUp for more large scale modeling.
http://www.countryplans.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1149627796/0

At the end I suggest a small project for BigMish!

[BigMish]

Yup, it is Sketch Up.

John, I'm dying to know your thoughts on this issue: should I use nailers? Should they be cut short to accommodate the gussets (as I diagramed) or should the gussets be cut short to accommodate the nailers (as PEG suggested)? Or should I use a other method entirely?

[John Raabe]

Here's what I would do...

Make all the trusses the same but on the gable end wall trusses don't put any plywood gussets on the outside face. You don't need them as you will be sheathing the whole wall anyway. Just tilt them up so the framing is flush with the outside of the wall and floor. Then infill under the truss with gable wall studs. Notch them over the truss members (see Wagner, p.131), nail them together and then sheath the end wall (with the panels tying the upper and lower framing together). You can smear some glue onto the truss member joints and nail the sheathing well there (as you would a gusset).

You don't need to worry about headers for windows in this wall as there is little real load on the end wall studs.

You may need to install fire blocking and/or nailers depending on what the interior finish is and what the installer wants... but your first goal is to get the roof on and get out of the weather.

[PEG688]

What John is saying is all the regular truss's have gusset's on both sides, I think , and that you should leave the outer gussets off , which is a no brainer IMO, the two gable end truss's he is recommending the wagner three cut / knotched stud top . Which would include special knotch's where those stud crossed over the spaced out gusset's ,some studs will hit gussets , some will not,  so the knotching will be different , another different setting / setup. ,  unless you gusset the full lenght of the rafter / truss,  like I said it can be done that way . It would take me longer doing it that way , so I'm sure it will take you longer, so I don't agree with him on the faster part.  If you feel better about it you can  do it that way. Maybe I'm not being clear about it , maybe John didn't read all the post on the question as he has his Dad on his mind .    

 I just wouldn't do the Wagner way , time is money , the way I discribed would in no way weakin the truss/ gable end rafter down fill for insulation,  and like he said it's a gable end so there is no real weight to worry about so no structural headers are needed, the weight is transfered into the stud wall.

So now we MTL have you so confused you'll give up    

G/L PEG

[John Raabe]

PEG's suggested version of Mish's gable end diagram where he holds back the gussets and then installs a continuous backer/nailer is a fine suggestion. If you didn't remember to cut back on the gussets and installed the backer/nailer later, that would be fine too. Either one provides plenty of support for the interior finish and will take less time than the more traditional framing that Wagner shows.

I'm not sure why Mish shows nailers inside the attic... is he drywalling that as well? (The red framing is nailers, right?)

Good suggestion, PEG. I'm not the production carpenter here, that's for sure. (I'm not even a good apprentice carpenter, just ask the builder I worked with when we built my place!  )

[BigMish]

I'm not too concerned about the speed of construction: in case you hadn't guessed I'm not a professional builder   but an owner builder more worried about getting it right than my time. However, the naler method *feels* much more right to me (probably because it better resembles the framing of the rest of the house which I am more familiar with.

John, good question about the attic: no I am not installing ceiling there. I was adding the nailers as I thought they where necessary for structural support of the studs which frame the gable vent. I removed these (but added plates - see below).

So here is the my latest attempt at modeling this, some things to note:
-      I am trimming the gussets to accommodate the nailers (as per PEG)
-      I forgot to add plates to walls but after reviewing Nash's DIYSHB I realized my omission; they have been added
-      Due to the height of the wall I'm planning to use the tilted up stud wall method he explains (Nash 231-232): the tilted up stud wall is in pink

.M

[John Raabe]

Looks good... the nailers in the attic are not needed and serve no structural purpose.

I think you will want to do a bottom plate on the gable end studs rather than just nailing them to the subfloor sheathing. You can do the center section as you show as a seperate frame, or put it on one plate and tilt the whole thing up. This saves a couple of studs but you might need a helper.