CountryPlans Forum

How many are paying cash to finance your house? If (and it's starting to look like a huge "if") I ever get to build mine, I want to do it with cash a little at a time. The reason why is because I want to be debt free. Or at the very least only 20 or so thousand in debt for a house. Which limits me to house design, land size and how nicely the house is finished out as far as moulding and cabinets go. I'm seriously considering trying to build a cabinet in my garage (once we get some credit cards paid off) just to see if I can build a cabinet. I'd like to do as much of it myself as possible.
Jared

I'm paying cash. It can be done but you've got to have discipline. Once you have some land sit down and look at your budget. You need to have enough cash ready to get dried in as fast as you can build it. I'm shooting for 60-90 days to get dried in after foundation. I'm about 30 days into it and the walls are up and I'm working on the loft floors. Once it's dried in you can slow down and only build as fast as your budget allows but it's going to mean giving up shopping anywhere other than home depot for a year or two. What do you want for christmas? Boards  :D

Why am I building my own...lots of reasons.
1.  I've always wanted to build a house for myself, by myself, probably as much as anything just to see if I can do it.  I like big challenges.   
2.  It's cheaper by a long shot. 
3.  I've watched houses being built by others for a long time; it's kind of a hobby of mine.  I love to see how other people did something.  I learn from it.  I compare how they did it to how I would do it.  If I like their method better; I'll adopt it.
4.  Likewise, I've seen lots of poor, sloppy construction done by professionals.  I don't like that and I want it done right in my home.  If I do it myself, I can live with the results, even if they turn out less than perfect. 
5.  I have built lots of other things in my life; bigger projects, like a two car garage/workshop and a full sized airplane (from a kit).
6.  I have all the tools necessary to do a house project.
7.  Probably the most important reason of all; I'm retired and I have the time to do it. 

How am I paying for it...cash, as I go along. 

If you want to see what I've done so far, check out the blog address below.

Good luck with your project; I'll bet you can do it.

Looking good Tony~ Keep it up.
Okie Bob

Why are we planning on doing it ourselves?
A good chunk of that is personal satisfaction. The other good size chunk is it keeps the total cost down.

How are we paying for it?
Cash, via credit card for convenience and cash back rewards.

Scott don't forget about those neat little toys at Christmas . Finish or brad nailers, Drywall screw gun and the likes.

We are building it for cash.  100%.  We are building it to prove that we can and because very few people can say they built their own house.  I can't think of a better family project, except maybe a fruitful garden..  :)

I am building my own because I learned being in construction all my life it is way cheaper and if you want it done the way you want it, do it yourself. I paid cash for the land and putting the rest on a credit card till I get paid for the fire season around Sept-Oct. My home I paid cash for the property and did the rest as I could afford it. Now I have 6 buildings over 6,000 sq ft of covered space the Tax Man is ripping me off for! You will learn fast what they appraise it for is way more then it costs to build. Like around 3 to 5 times more depending on the building! Mark

Why did I undertake this big DIY project?  I turned 40, and decided I needed to start setting goals relating to things I always wanted to do and reaching for them.  Took up ice hockey (love it!).  Ran two marathons (didn't love it).  Wanted a yurt off the grid but my wife wanted something more substantial--so now I am neck deep in year two of "scope creep",  and I love it.

How are we paying for this project?  Cash and some refinancing at the right time.  Still getting close to the end of the budget and we will have to slow down and do some "value engineering" if we are going to get to completion with only being marginally over budget.

mt

Awww, come on Mike.  "Hitting the Wall" at mile 20 really isn't all that bad.

Tony
Houston Tenneco Marathon '92 '93 '94

==============================
Now, so this thread doesn't become hijacked, I just thought of another reason for building my own house.

8.  I like solving problems (and heaven knows there are about a million problems to solve once you reach the construction stage, no matter how meticulous you were in your planning).

Re: marathons.  Mile 20/hitting the wall was only a small part of it.  The training was a drag--too much time taken out of a day for those long runs.  I recall hearing a quote from Bill Rogers, the longtime marathon runner who said that he really had respect for those people who took 4+ hours to complete the races and prepare because that is a long time compared to the 2+ hours it took him. 

I have actually used the mental determination that I somewhat developed with the training to get over the humps in building this beach house.  I have had to focus on short term goals and keep plugging a way at them so that I was not too daunted  by the big project.  I have also needed the encouragement and positive feedback from others to keep at it.

Final marathon-related comment:  when a go to bed after a weekend of long hours on the project, I find I have the same trouble sleeping that I did when I was training for and running those marathons.  I was so fatigued and in enough minor pain, and mentally ampted up that I had trouble staying asleep.

Anyway....  on to building.

mt

Ok, so far it seems like everybody is building/wanting to build for some sort of personal satisfaction. Here's why I want to build, even though it looks like it may never happen now: The economy. Things are going downhill fast, and this upcoming tax rebate makes things worse. The leaders of this country are so financially stupid that they can't see they're building a disaster. I don't want to be one more factory worker that is suddenly out of a job yet still has a mortgage and car payments and credit cards to pay for and kids and a wife to feed. (In my defense, my wife developed a neurological disorder that took a year to diagnose. It left her unable to work so in order to pay our bills, tons of doctor bills had to go on credit cards. Not to mention lawyer bills that we had to have in order to fight our exes) I want to know that if need be, I can take a podunk job at the chicken processing plant here in town and still be able to live on 7.50/hr.
Jared

I'm owned by a house in the San Francisco Bay Area.  I've had too much going on earning a living and raising my kids to learn what I should know about plumbing, electricity, appliance repair, and carpentry to take care of the things I should be able to.  One bad earthquake and what I do for a living won't get me a job.

The kids are almost in college.  We have 20 acres 3 hours away and have been learning all those things I mentioned above.  We volunteer at a farm to learn how to build and run our own.  We're teaching kids how to manage a laying flock for all of our enrichment.  We get to keep the experience on everything we build.  And Phalynx had it right:  There's no better project!

Mark has a good point too.  I'd rather have the county tax my 20'x30' and leave my railroad container and hoop houses alone.

I do IT project management.  I have enough background in development and infrastructure to tell when a software engineer or architect is padding his estimate or is "under-skilled" for the project.  We call it the "BS Detector" and it is by no means unique to my industry.  This work lets me develop one calibrated for building and dealing with local government.

And:  Five hours into digging a trench in rock-filled clay soil I realized I was having a better time than I had all week at work.

It's all being paid for with cash.  Slowly, sometimes painfully so, but with cash.  Sometimes I come up with a better, cheaper solution while I've been waiting for the money.

Jared, have you found any land yet?  You do live in siloam springs right? 

Quote from: MikeT on January 30, 2008, 09:03:31 AM

I was so fatigued and in enough minor pain, and mentally ampted up that I had trouble staying asleep.

Anyway....  on to building.

mt

Mike, do you find that you do building related problem solving during your sleep.  Do you go to bed wondering how you will do something and wake up knowing the answer?  Mike Oehler mentioned something like this.  He said when you come to a hard part - take a break - do something else -- the answer will come to you -- or something to that effect.

Quote from: Drew on January 30, 2008, 11:30:50 AM
I'm owned by a house in the San Francisco Bay Area.  I've had too much going on earning a living and raising my kids to learn what I should know about plumbing, electricity, appliance repair, and carpentry to take care of the things I should be able to.  One bad earthquake and what I do for a living won't get me a job.

The kids are almost in college.  We have 20 acres 3 hours away and have been learning all those things I mentioned above.  We volunteer at a farm to learn how to build and run our own.  We're teaching kids how to manage a laying flock for all of our enrichment.  We get to keep the experience on everything we build.  And Phalynx had it right:  There's no better project!

Mark has a good point too.  I'd rather have the county tax my 20'x30' and leave my railroad container and hoop houses alone.

I do IT project management.  I have enough background in development and infrastructure to tell when a software engineer or architect is padding his estimate or is "under-skilled" for the project.  We call it the "BS Detector" and it is by no means unique to my industry.  This work lets me develop one calibrated for building and dealing with local government.

And:  Five hours into digging a trench in rock-filled clay soil I realized I was having a better time than I had all week at work.

It's all being paid for with cash.  Slowly, sometimes painfully so, but with cash.  Sometimes I come up with a better, cheaper solution while I've been waiting for the money.

Drew, you are a great example for the city people.  I know of others there who will be totally lost if the city fails.  They are totally dependent on the city and government aside from their jobs.  My hats off to you. :)

Is the reflection of the sun blinding you over there to the West?  hmm [crz]

Quote from: travcojim on January 30, 2008, 11:37:06 AM
Jared, have you found any land yet?  You do live in siloam springs right? 

No, and right now I'm not looking. My concern right now is paying cars and credit cards off so that I can save enough for 2 or 3 acres and pay cash. I'm hoping, but not expecting, to be able to do it next year at tax time. I believe in God and I believe that things will happen when they should. In the meantime, I don't sweat it.

Jared

Jared If your in Siloam Springs you're only about 30 miles from us.  [cool] Keep the faith. I'm sure things will work out for you.

Why build?
- As mentioned above, we want to be ready for anything (almost) and somewhat self-sufficient.

How to pay?
- ALL cash, NO credit cards. By choice. Saving and spending cash makes one think more clearly. Do I really need that? Do I have the cash for it?  Don has a great idea with using the CC and paying it off monthly, but the majority of folks don't have the discipline for that. heh


As odd as it may sound, we found our land when we stopped looking. It sort of found us. :)

That's the ticket, Jared.  Instead of figuring out how to get more we figure out how to thrive (Not survive, but thrive) with less.  It's counterintuitive, but the more we can do for ourselves the less we'll count on the dollar staying strong or government programs to help us out.    There are a lot of people with variable rate mortgages and fixed incomes that are really sweating the economic downturn.

And thanks, Glenn.  It's good to come out here and sound off every so often.  I found myself giving a lecture (rant) on local food and certification bodies at the beginning of class last night.  Fortunately it was a music class with kindred souls.  That's not the case so much at work.   ::)

Scott, Springdale here, building out in Kingston.  Or at least daydreaming out there....

Wow that's great travcojim! Lots of independent souls in these parts.

Glenn I have built the majority of my cabin going to sleep.  I guess this is usual  ???.  I think it is the one time of the day where your mind is relacked and not cluttered with everything else.  Yes hard to solve problems come easier to me at bedtime.  I'm thinking if I sleep more then it will be built faster ;D

Scott and Don pretty much summed up my feelings. I am paying out of my pocket.

Scott don't forget about those neat little toys at Christmas . Finish or brad nailers, Drywall screw gun and the likes.

And sawmills...and new nail guns... [cool] [cool]

Well I was planning on selling the kids on eBay, but alas they have rules. Then I thought maybe I could sell one of my extra organs. Can't do that. Then I thought I will sell my house. Ummmmm that would have been a good idea 18 months ago. I am left with cashing out the IRA, I am hoping (need to talk to a cpa) that if I do that I can get my structure up and then turn around and write off that new structure thus regaining back some of the penalty I have to pay.

I want to build most of it cause I am cheap and I want to know how to do it and how to repair it. I want to be independent.

Another thing here from the I forgot to ask department.  I get lots of materials left over from my jobs.  I was working on my shop today and in fact I have built the whole thing from left overs except - I bought the concrete for the slab.

So I have approximately 1200 square feet of shop for about $1200.  It's not beautiful -- its functional.  If I bought a shop that size installed, It would probably cost me $25000 to $30,000.  It was a necessity for my families welfare and my ability to provide for them and make a living.  It was necessary for my pursuit of happiness.  The state doesn't own me or my land.  When they buy it from me at my price, they can dictate to me what I can or can't do. I paid cash for the concrete on my monthly account.

Whether you could do this or not depends on your situation.  Whether I ever have a problem with them or not remains to be seen.

I like the challenge. It is nice to be able to stand back and look at what you accomplished at the end of the day knowing it is permanent and will be used for many years to come. Cash is king if you can be patient enough to do it that way. Tons of building material makes it's  way to the landfills every year. If you can find a way to divert some of that to your driveway.......... it takes longer to build with that type of material but I find the savings are worth the trouble. I recently got several thousand dollars worth of material from a company tearing down houses. I paid $1500 and I got to pull all the nails, stack it and band it. It took the better part of three weeks to haul, clean, sort and strap it up into bunks but it makes for a good non-taxable reverse income. Not money coming in but not money going out either. I can now add 900 sq. ft to my house + an attached double car garage (including roof trusses) and still have lots of lumber left over. Now if I could just figure out how to get budget priced concrete..... ???

I just happened across this article.  Seemed appropriate for here.  Building with limited means.

http://www.hollowtop.com/cls_html/limited.htm

That is a great article Glenn. It should provide some inspiration for many and yet contains the caveat that it isn't necessarily for everyone. I am at the drawing board stage for my addition now. I never quite made it to the CAD stage of the game so it will be done the old fashioned way. When I discovered the used material I did what Thomas Elpel mentioned and drew a few boxes, rearranging here and there just to see if I could make the trusses work and get some quantity ideas for the balance of the materials. Now I will refine that rough plan, submit for a permit and probably get started next fall when AZ cools down again. I have the luxury of time being on my side and with the savings on the material I believe it is doable. Of course when it is done the County Assessor will have his way with me and my utility bills will about double with more space to heat and cool. ??? Some of life's tradeoffs really suck. I wish I knew how to dodge those bullets without getting arrested. LOL, I will work on it.

Over the course of this three year project (between property purchase and now), I have noticed an interesting increase in people's awareness of and appreciation for re-using salvage building materials.  About five years ago, I built a garage and used as much reclaimed and recycled materials as I could.  The problem at that time wasn't getting the materials, they were plentiful.  Craigslist was just getting started (in Portland, at least) and I was able to get lots of good quality wood for free or close to free.  The challenge then was getting the building inspector to okay the use of these materials. 

Fast forward to 2008.  I find that while recycled materials are still relatively plentiful, the competition/ demand and value of them has increased.   I find myself competing with small contractors (one man operations and such ) for materials--they are combing the ads and rebuilding centers for deals too and they have more flexible time than I do, so they seem to be getting the "good stuff" before I get to it.  And materials that people used to give away, is now going for a price.  It is still better than buying new in most cases, plus it has the environmentally friendly angle.

Then there are the inspectors.  I find with more contractors and DIYers using these materials, the inspectors are more accepting of using these materials in the projects.

With this economic downturn, it will be interesting to see the effect on the supply of these materials and the demand as well.

mt

A most interesting thread!  :D

Lots of solid advice and a look into that most important foundation of any building project - motivation!

Glenn: Thanks for the article and the links to the work of Thomas J. Elpel. Wow! Books, workshops, a wilderness adventure school. Looks like a home built industry!
http://www.hollowtop.com/

My mother was a Depression Baby and used to say I left enough food on my plate to feed an army.  We had a cadre of cranky people telling us to close the door because we're "Not paying to heat the outdoors."

"Waste not, want not."

What a big bunch of pains in the bicycle seat.  Then came the energy crisis as told by Richard Nixon (Whom everybody believed, right?) which made me late for school because we had to wait in line for $.60 gas.  Later came the drought (Which one?  Oh the one in California in 1975) which went on and on.  It never bothered me.  The faucet always came on and I didn't like showers much anyway.

So now we've shuffled all those boring old people out to assisted living or wherever and we can live our lives.

Except that my kids can't seem to turn a light off when they leave a room.  And have you seen the amount of crap on the curb on trash collection days?  Do you have to wash your car with that stuff?  It goes out to the bay!  Another new TV?  To watch what, pray tell?  And why do you need the F350 dualie for a commute car, Brad?  You're an unmarried marketing director!  And close that door!  I'm not paying to heat the out doors!

Hey! Come back here!  I'm talking to you!

After reading the recent posts to this thread, it made me realize several reasons for building my own house that weren't posted before.  These reasons are probably even more important than any of the reasons I previously posted (it's funny how you sometimes forget the most important things).

I too believe there are "hard times a comin", and I don't just mean recession/depression.  What with peak oil out there (no, it's already here), global warming, the credit crisis (much bigger than the subprime mortgage crisis), worldwide Islamo-fascism problems, exploding world population growth, a war in Iraq that isn't going to go away (no matter who is elected), a 9 trillion dollar deficit...need I go on...I think that now is the time to be pathologically frugal (call it cheap if you want to, everybody else I know does), and self-sufficient to the maximum degree possible.  Part of that self-sufficiency thing is being absolutely debt-free and staying that way.  The other part is doing as many things yourself as you can; so building the house myself is a logical extension of that.

I learned my lesson back in 1983, when my adjustable mortgage rate was 13% and the payment had just jumped up $400 per month, the same year I got both divorced and lost my job.  I call it the triple whammy.  Things weren't looking good for the boy.  I did get work, but at 1/3 of the previous salary.  Two years later, after getting over that big hurdle I made a commitment to get and stay debt free and to start seriously putting money aside.  So, I guess I've thought this way for going on 20 years now.  I attribute being able to retire at age 48 to this attitude (and to some really good luck).   

Please don't take any of this as bragging.  It's probably a good thing that the triple whammy happened to me when it did.  It made me wake up and start taking care of my business like I should have been doing all along.  It kept me from doing stupid things like "cash-out refinances", over using credit cards and continuing to buy bigger and bigger houses along the way. 

Okay, the sermon is over.   

P.S.  It's too bad all the good people on this forum can't all live in the same area...just think of it... there wouldn't be anything we couldn't build...or do...or fix.

Quote from: John Raabe on January 31, 2008, 11:21:05 AM
A most interesting thread!  :D

Lots of solid advice and a look into that most important foundation of any building project - motivation!

Glenn: Thanks for the article and the links to the work of Thomas J. Elpel. Wow! Books, workshops, a wilderness adventure school. Looks like a home built industry!
http://www.hollowtop.com/

I found it looking for floor spans.  It is very interesting although I just skimmed it. 

More cool stuff on another of his sites.

http://www.hollowtop.com/tunnel.html

Naw, n74tg, that's not bragging.  That's inspiring and encouraging, and we all profit by hearing stories like that.

In this company I am called a "Contractor".  My badge says "Contingent Staff" in red letters.  I'm a project manager and companies engage me to come work for them under contract for 3, 4 or 6 months at a time.  I've been in this 4 month gig for 17 months now.

Some people look at the contractors and wonder why they don't try to become employees.  You can get paid time off, an annual bonus, matching 401(k), why not become an employee?  And job security!  How much are you really making as a contractor to make up for all of that?

In the 17 months I've been here I've seen two major layoffs.  There was also one when I was here four years ago.

I had this boss here and he and I got along pretty well.  He took work home at night.  He's a director and wonders what he has to do to become a vice president.  He's a smart, active, motivated guy, and he's taking the hose to the wrong burning building.

"I look at my friends and I see that they have a nice car and a great big TV," he says, "And I admit it burns me that I don't have them and I want them."

"Are you looking at one friend with the car and another friend with the TV?  Do either have both or did they make a choice?"

"Yeah, I hadn't thought of that."

"Do either of them ride centuries with you?"

"No, they don't."

"If you buy the biggest TV in the neighborhood, how long will it be until someone buys a bigger one for less money than you spent?"

"Yeah, I see where you're going."

I told him about our plan to sell the city house and build our farm.  I told him about the three phases of life around learning a trade, learning yourself, and securing your final comfort.  I told him about the hedonic treadmill.  I don't think he'll stop going to Best Buy, but I don't think the believes that it is the only answer anymore.

Except that my kids can't seem to turn a light off when they leave a room.  And have you seen the amount of crap on the curb on trash collection days?  Do you have to wash your car with that stuff?  It goes out to the bay!  Another new TV?  To watch what, pray tell?  And why do you need the F350 dualie for a commute car, Brad?  You're an unmarried marketing director!  And close that door!  I'm not paying to heat the out doors!

Hey! Come back here!  I'm talking to you!   rofl  Drew, it's funny how we are determined to not say the same things our parents told us & then....    d* c*

P.S.  It's too bad all the good people on this forum can't all live in the same area...just think of it... there wouldn't be anything we couldn't build...or do...or fix.  That would be quite a community, wouldn't it n74g!

We started building our own place because we didn't have the money & didn't want to get a big mortgage.  Glenn has enough experience with building & wanted to try some alternative ways of construction...  he's very resourceful in finding free, near free, good deals or trades & can use most anything & make something out of it  :)  A lot of what we've done is experimental - we've found some things that don't work as well as others...  he does the research - I just kinda go along for the ride, help where I can, make suggestions, be the gofer, do the support work so he doesn't have to be bothered with it...  I don't always know what he has in mind  :o so can't just go ahead & do my own thing - our place is totally unconventional...   c*  The feeling of building your own place is so much better than buying a ready made place that - if it is what you really want, it too over-priced or if it is somewhat reasonable, you  are already thinking of all the things you need to fix, change etc before it is truly your home...  building it yourself is quite an accomplishment! 

We also wanted to be pretty independent - not reliant on the gov't support systems (power, water, etc)  So, when everyone else is out of power, we don't even have a clue  :)  Our garden is another thing that gives us fresh veggies - it does take a lot of water in our hot, dry climate & we need to continue to work on better ways of "farming" - hopefully, one of these days, we'll be able to get some animals again - goats, sheep, chickens etc for milk, eggs, meat...  haven't gotten to the vegetarian stage yet, Drew - but I will go days without eating any meat... 

Yeah, our community would be quite unique if everyone on CP were living close by  :)

Well, at least I know now I'm not some doomsday prophet, because I was really getting the impression that most people here built their own houses just because they had well paying jobs and could afford two houses. One in town where they worked, and another out in the desert, or in Alaska. (Man what a sweet view that guy has) Me, I'm broke. That's my motivation. Thank God and Uncle Sam for income tax season, because that's helping get us out of debt. It really makes me feel good to know that the gov't is giving us a tax rebate in the middle of this year to try and get us to spend, but I'm taking mine and paying off some debt. Not quite what Uncle Sam had in mind, but it works for me. I'm also considering a second job to get me where I'm going a little quicker.
Jared

Good plan for the tax rebate, Jared.  It might not be what the manufacturer had in mind, but as many eminent economists have stated that individuals will act in their own best interest.  There's a surprise, huh?

This won't be our second house, but our only house.  Our plan involves going into town as necessary (Some people in our industry can telecommute) and stay in ether a hotel or a studio apartment, depending on how may days we need to be there.  Either one would be tax deductible to me as a business expense.  It doesn't make it free housing, just less expensive.   However, I can still get by on a whole lot less with my mindset and the fact that I have a beautiful farm to go back to.  It sure beats my mortgage.

Well the most basic reason we are building ourselves is to get things done to the quality level that we desire. I have been in new home construction for too long not to know about all the shortcuts that are taken in a lot of buildings. We want things to be solid and correctly built. By providing the labor ourselves it alows us to use higher quality components and add more features that we want.

We plan to pay for the building in cash as we go as I have had a mortgage long enough and am tired of owing people. That coupled with the current state of the economy I would feel a lot better if we owned it ought right.

i bought my land 9 years ago. 21.000 on a canal leading to 350 acer lake. it was more than i wanted to spend at the time, but it appreciated rapidly. i bought on l.c and used some of the money i should have put down to install a septic field. on the advice on my real estate agent, she suggested the deal should be contingent upon receiving a septic permit, not just a perk test. luckily  the land perked and a contractor put the tank/field in for 1500. i have had nine years to save building material for my project. the local lowes in my are cull out a lot of plywood, i was able to buy all my 3/4 material for $5 dollars a sheet. 7/16 $3. i bought enough fibercon decking to build and 12x16 deck for $45. if you look, you can find the deals. if your in hurry and want it tomorrow your going to pay, it's call a mortgage. the trick is to buy only what you will need, as your plans will change a million times. i have found so many good deals, that my wife calls our basement lowes. it has also been nine years of parking outside and not in the garage. i have found the most important tool i have is a ford ranger pick-up truck. the michigan winter has stopped me, but come april i will start the mechanical. so far i have about 14,000 into the cabin, the cabin will have ikea kitchen cabinets, kohler memoir lav fixtures, aqua glass shower, vermont casting wood stove, nickel fixtures, slate flooring, suntouch electric heated flooring (bathroom only) and  a great room filled with bruce hardwood flooring (200 sq feet). the exterior will be cover in t1-11 with a lot of cedar shakes. my peaks and pump-out will be covered with shakes. the only things i have paid  retail on have been the roof trusses, shingles and 1/2 roof osb roof deckings. my point, just because your building on a budget, your home/cottage/cabin doesn't have to look like it. the deals are out there, go find them. you can find a link to my cabin under owner builder forum. 20x36 michigan cabin.

Wow --- guys if you haven't checked out that hollowtop.com website, go do it quick.   Here is a reference from hollowtop to exactly what many in this thread have been talking about.  Check it out.

http://www.greenuniversity.net/Green_Economics/jobtrap.htm (http://www.greenuniversity.net/Green_Economics/jobtrap.htm)

http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=3958.msg46807;boardseen#new

This thread is about Thomas Elpel.

Wow, I guess this thread really struck a cord. I didn't expect it to, but I should've expected it. It's fun to read. Wow, my thread's on the front freakin' page! How cool is that?
Jared

I guess we're in the same boat as Jared.  We would never be able to afford to build if we didn't do it ourselves. 
More importantly, both  my husband and myself tend to be DIYers anyway.  My husband is known as McGuyver because he can make anything work with the proper application of duct tape and baling wire.  ;)  A friend of mine gave me her broken treadmill saying, "if anyone can fix it, Travis can."  And he did.  And it works better than it did before because he modified it while he was at it.  They, meanwhile, spent $600 for a new one...
And I think also is the fact that both of us grew up watching our parents take care of things themselves.  My dad, for example, is a lawyer.  But he's also an adequate shade-tree mechanic and a quality carpenter.  When I was 5 I got to help him tear down an old barn.  When I was 6-8 I got to help him rebuild it as our cabin.  Needed a wider driveway?  We dug it out and poored it outselves. 

I guess the biggest lesson I learned was that you don't pay people to do something that you can do yourself. 

So far as financing.  We're going to pay as much as possible with cash, but there is going to be some that is financed via credit cards and re-fied, if needed, as a mortgage.

Erin, your dad sounds like mine - when I was growing up, he took care of the mechanical things - he built additions to our houses, started digging by hand one evening in the backyard - wouldn't tell us what he was doing, then some of the neighbors got involved - come to find out, he was digging a pool that the whole neighborhood helped build & we all enjoyed swimming in!  He built shelves, headboards for beds, remodeled, gardened, landscaped, poured cement for sidewalks, driveways, farmed - my brothers are like that, especially my younger one & so is Glenn - whatever needs to be done, they can do it - pretty nice  :)  now sometimes, getting them to do it is another thing  ;) heh

Well the original topic takes on new meaning when things change.  Originally I was building the cabin to sell and become debt free. Therefore I was going somewhat out on a limb with the finances figuring that I could keep up with the intrest until it was sold. Now I have thought more on keeping the cabin. Yeah I've grown a little attached to it. Can I still keep it. The answer is "Yes" but will I be debt free the answer is no.  So I guess there is a trade off somewhere in this scenerio.   Eventually I will get there debt free I mean but not as soon as I would have liked to.

My dad wasn't a DIY'er. He got his Ph.D. and made enough to pay people to do the things he didn't know how to do. In his defense, he was always busy and some school board meetings (he was superintendant) would last until well after midnight. His hobby was cattle farming, which he did on his 50 acres until he retired and decided he was too old to keep up with cattle. I'd considered a cabin there, since the land was free and nobody is living there, but my brother already has a trailer there that's vacant, so if we went out there we would just buy the trailer and live there. My point is: When it comes to building, I'm going to have to learn as I go. Fun.
Jared

I'm sure that's what my dad did...  he was a B52 instructor pilot for a good part of his career - he retired when he was 49 & bought 100 acres with old farm homes on them (2 separate plots next to each other) we had to plant 40 acres of almonds, the rest was already planted...  my dad found out later that us kids had planted them facing the wrong way - I guess there is some type of knot - don't remember if it is the grafted area but it's supposed to be pointing a certain way - hey, the trees did great anyway... he built a large family room, then remodeled the kitchen, then 2500 sq ft upstairs addition that my brothers helped with; my older brother built a 2500 sq ft home with 5 car garage (now part of that is converted into an office, bathroom & work out room; my other brother added on probably 2000 sq ft to his 100 y/o home - downstairs & upstairs - then just recently remodeled the whole thing - looks beautiful!  A couple summers ago he built a pool & last summer a pool house/barbecue area...  he also built a big shop...  they've all done it with very little money, bought at auctions, sales, etc - lots of physical labor on their parts...  on the other hand, my sister & her husband just remodeled their home - have spent probably $100,000 - they would rather pay someone to do the work...  so everyone has their way of doing things...  when we remodeled our house in the valley, we took out walls, totally gutted the kitchen - new electrical wiring, insulation, walls, some of the plumbing replaced, new fixtures, built-ins, cabinets, tile on floor & counters; built a couple walk in closets for bedrooms, pantry in kitchen, redid the living room...  we spent about $20,000 - if we'd had someone else do it, it probably would have been $100,000 like my sister's.   Now we've built the cabin - in stages - there's still a lot to do but as is, perfectly liveable (except I need more CLOSETS!  :-* )  We bought another 40 acres after this one with a home already there - Glenn & my brother remodeled it - kitchen, living room, bathrooms...  new windows, sliding glass door, arched doorway into the kitchen that used to be totally closed up with no VIEWS but now with the archway & new, bigger windows placed a bit lower - 360 views - the house is at the top of a mountain with a wrap-around porch....  we're renting that one out.  We have a mobile home on our property in the valley that Glenn's son lived in - he added a couple additions to it.  Oh, years ago, Glenn added a 2 story addition to the house there including a bathroom & 2 bedrooms... so lots of experience in the family on our own stuff - Glenn's done lots of remodels on other homes...  you gotta do it yourself if you want it unless you have tons of money.  Besides, when you do it yourself, you have the satisfaction of seeing the works of your hands - if you can't do it all, just farm out what you don't know - you still have the satisfaction of having planned, designed your personal touches & done what you can...   :)

Sassy:
I flew B-52's also; Ellsworth, 1975-1981.  When did your dad retire and from where.  Was he ever at Ellsworth?

Tony

he retired in 1971 Castle AFB  he was in Vietnam '68-69 for 18 mo's

Hello All,

I've been reading this site for a few months now and thought this would be a good topic to make a first post. 

My wife and I live in Charlotte NC and are saving for some land a bit west in the mountains.  We're planning on building ourselves and paying cash.  For experience we're building a garden shed in the back yard later this winter/spring.  I have much of the material already...donated from a friend who just had extra material from a house he just had build.  I'm sure I'll be posting questions/progress photos about that project in the weeks to come.

We are certainly not rich but I make a decent salary as an engineer.  We're able to save because we've never carried large debt and we do many things ourselves.  We live within our means and don't worry about the Jonses. 

I don't want to get too far aside but I read through Elpels' web site and respected much of what he's done.  I do have a big problem with the fact that he let medicare cover health expenses for his children and participated in the free lunch program.  It's great to want to live simply and debt free but in the same spirit I feel one should not be a burden on society in their endeavors if they can help it.  Elpel certainly seems capable enough to stay off the dole.

Peace,
Doug

Welcome to the forum, Doug.  I've been a bit busy and haven't read all of his stuff, theres so much there.

While I agree with you in a way, the abuse of our system being perpetrated by the Whitehouse with the illegal alien projects (big business), no bid Haliburton projects (Cheney), war machines (Bush- Bin Laden - Carlysle), Katrina Ice (Quale-retired  military), government arms contracts, $25.000.000 port renovation project (Feinstein's husband,Pelosi's husband), jobs sent overseas (big corporate profits) etc, make me want to say -- no matter who you are, if it will benefit you and you can do it and are here legally, go ahead , benefit yourself, take advantage of our failing system before the politicians steal it all.

Hey Glenn,

I definitely agree with you regarding the broken state of the system we live in.  I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on what to do about it.  I feel that my small part of the solution is taking care of myself and my family without outside help because I can.  Anybody can play the system but they are then part of the system and part of the problem.  I want to be independent.

At any rate, at least this is a good healthy debate   :).


Doug

Actually, I agree with you, Doug, and that is the way I would do it too, but if someone finds it necessary to dip into the till to survive them I won't fault them for it.  Somewhere either them or their family has put into the broken system and will get beat out of it so I say don't feel bad about it, and if it makes you feel better put into it when you can while it is still slightly functional.  The politicians have already ripped off most of our social security funds so I think we are only going to be able to pick up a few crumbs once in a while.  I can get by without it and wouldn't stand in line for it.  I assume others in need will stand in line when they need to, but will get out of line and maybe put a little in when they don't need it.

Quote from: glenn kangiser on February 02, 2008, 02:30:47 PM
Actually, I agree with you, Doug, and that is the way I would do it too, but if someone finds it necessary to dip into the till to survive them I won't fault them for it.  Somewhere either them or their family has put into the broken system and will get beat out of it so I say don't feel bad about it, and if it makes you feel better put into it when you can while it is still slightly functional.  The politicians have already ripped off most of our social security funds so I think we are only going to be able to pick up a few crumbs once in a while.  I can get by without it and wouldn't stand in line for it.  I assume others in need will stand in line when they need to, but will get out of line and maybe put a little in when they don't need it.

Even I collected 2 weeks of un/employment in my life once when I got out of the service in 1973. They told me it would take allmost 6 weeks to get that check and I told them heck I will have to get a job or starve! I never figured out how to work the system yet but I sure know a lot of people who get goverment checks and still work on the side but are supposed to disabled?? To me it is just a pain to fill out all the forms to get the free money so I just earn my own however I can, and pay as less back into the system as I can cause I HATE supporting those kind of people with my hard earned money. Mark

I found No Rules here saying I can not sell my kids. :)

I agree with that too, Mark.  I put in as little as I can get away with and get whatever back that I can.

Stink, possibly use them for slave labor and take their money-- that way it makes a recurring income rather than a one lump sum but final income for each one that sells.  I've heard that it has been tried on Craigs list in Seattle? [crz]

Well, maybe we shouldn't all live TOO close together.  With our luck, we'd form a militia (or at least be accused of doing so) and then they'd send in the FBI, and tanks, and flame throwers.  And then, the media would make us into a religious cult that had unwilling members held against their will.  It would be Waco all over again.  Either that, or we'd be labeled terrorists and end up in extraordinary rendition to some black site in Afghanistan.

Nah, I'm just kidding.  Though Glenn and I do think a LOT alike. 

There you go, Tony.  Did you check out he Survival video in off topics ?-- Oehler and lots of good Patriot stuff there.

A little background on myself.

I grew up in suburbia.  I grew up thinking that being successful meant that you would never have to do any menial labor (thats what C students did).  I realized my senior year college how wrong that mind set was, after taking over an hour changing a flat tire in the middle of nowhere.  I decide then that I would move as far away from civilization as I could get.  I got as far as Fairbanks before I ran out of gas.  I got a job with an accounting firm here.  After 4 years of renting from a slumlord and driving a hoopty, I had saved enough to start thinking about buying a house.  In that time, I had become obsessed with the Alaskan dream of building your own house.  My family laughed at me.  Up to that time, I had never so much as built a birdhouse, let alone anything as grandiose as a real house.  That made me even more motivated.  I bought the land in 2005 and started construction in May of that year.  I used the general idea of the Universal cottage but made alot of changes to get what I wanted.  Other than having to frame the first wall five times until I got it right, it went more smoothly than I could possibly have imagined.  I would put together wall panels at night and have friends help me lift them on the weekends.  I finally finished it on New Years Day of this year.  I spent approx. $115,000 and the final appraisal came in at $245,000.  Doing it myself, I was able to put in a lot of extras that I would not have been able to afford, namely my Rais woodstove and Viking appliances.  I also ended up with about $15,000 of tools and the skills to use them all.  It is amazing.  Now, I am working on building furniture to fill my house.  All from a guy who could barely change a tire 9 years ago.

 [cool] w* to the forum, akdreamin.

What a great success story.  I have seen your type but most never make it past the suit.  You are an outstanding example.

If you could it would be nice to get some pix of your project in the owner builder section -- Feel free to start your own thread if you have anything you can post.  We have a section for homemade furniture etc. also.

Dittos akdreamin.

Would also like to see pictures of any of your handiworks.

Quote from: Jared Drake on January 30, 2008, 11:13:49 AM
Ok, so far it seems like everybody is building/wanting to build for some sort of personal satisfaction. Here's why I want to build, even though it looks like it may never happen now: The economy. Things are going downhill fast, and this upcoming tax rebate makes things worse. The leaders of this country are so financially stupid that they can't see they're building a disaster. I don't want to be one more factory worker that is suddenly out of a job yet still has a mortgage and car payments and credit cards to pay for and kids and a wife to feed....I want to know that if need be, I can take a podunk job at the chicken processing plant here in town and still be able to live on 7.50/hr. Jared

You pretty much summed up my reasons.  Self Reliance and Independence.  Paying cash for the land and building materials. (the borrower is slave to the lender...) I figure that being here with a bunch of DIY'ers, I'm in good company.

I've lived on this land for 3 years in a 5th wheel with a portapotty and a chamber pot.  I telecommute, and well, so far so good.  The land was bought with cash and since then, I've been saving.  Spent 25 years in commercial credit in the steel industry, and have come to believe that it is not necessary to live with debt, and all of the potential consequences.  Got the plans today, breaking ground Monday.  So, why am I building my own?  Because mortages are a debt that trebles in size before you pay it off, if you pay it off, and because am unwilling to spend another winter in a 5th wheel.  and how am I paying for it? Cash.  Oh yeah, and I want an indoor toilet that flushes!

 w* considerations!

I can well appreciate the desire for a flush toilet having spent much time living/traveling in our RV. Fortunately we have only a few miles to drive to dump our portables.

Looking forward to seeing what you're doing.

Please start a topic on your project as you get going, considerations.

I've been in the steel business since 1974 - started my welding shop then. 

Sounds like you have good reasons and thinking on getting your place started.

I might as well throw my 2 cents in, since the thread seems to have been revived.

I'm building on my own partially because I've wanted to build my own house since I was a kid. But now it's more because this is the only option available to me. Our house is an awful little cottage that should probably be torn down. We bought this place because it is on 6 acres and the plan was to live in this house temporarily while we build either a whole new house or a major addition that basically amounts to a whole new house. 

Then the economy and the real estate market pretty much collapsed right after we moved in. Financially, there's no way that I could take on a second mortgage to pay a GC to build the new house. Nor do I have any hope of selling the place in order to buy a better house on less land, given the real estate market now.  Meanwhile, I've got a wife, 2 kids and 3 dogs living in this horrible, tiny house that is falling apart, has no real kitchen or living room and costs around $1,400 dollars EVERY WINTER to heat.  We can't wait for a better economy. We need a new house ASAP.

So I just started building. I'm doing a 190 sq ft workshop first, in order to learn how to build a house by doing it on a small scale first. My mistakes will be less expensive lessons this way.  I'm building this basically to residential code in order to get the most useful building experience. We'll also probably need the workshop as a staging area for building the new house.  In a pinch, if we can't afford heating oil next winter then we can temporarily move into the workshop, since it will be insulated and set up to rapidly convert to living space.  It will have baseboard heating and a woodstove (both of which I got as free salvage).

The workshop is coming along well.  I just finished the ceiling joists. There is no budget. I just scraped together enough cash to put in the foundation with the assumption that a foundation demands completion more emphatically than a set of plans in a drawer does.  I'd figure out how to get materials somehow or other.  This approach has worked. It will be the same thing with the new house. This summer I'm getting the permits and I'll put in a pier foundation to get going on the 20x30 2 story little house. I have no idea how I will pay for anything from that point on. It'll get done eventually.  Maybe I'll get a credit card just for the project if it gets to where I need a really good shove of a couple thousand bucks all at once. 

No budget, no mortgage, no problem. I've got land and tools. A house will eventually materialize.

That's a great attitude, Jackson!  Remember the old saying "necessity is the mother of invention"?  Sounds like you are figuring out creative methods along the way... 

That's what we've done on the Underground House...  it's definitely not conventional but it works!  We didn't want to get saddled with another mortgage so Glenn researched alternative building projects...  you don't need all new stuff if you can find used stuff in good condition - Free Cycle, sales, discounts, barely damaged goods all work...

Keep us posted on your progress, we love to hear ideas on how people get 'er done!  Lots of CP members who know lots of stuff if you have any questions! 

Good plan Jackson. Keep moving forward every day and it will get done. Thats what I do.

Ok Jackson....you and I seem of similar ilk and place in the process.  One foot in front of the other, and eyes on the prize....always works.

Well mine is to make a few bucks off of by building it myself. I am into it 12 days so far and hope to have it all dried in within 3-4 weeks total. Using up all my extra money but hope to get it all back soon! It is further along than this but I forgot my camera last time and the roof is on now. Mark
(http://photos.imageevent.com/willy/pontiacridge/CABIN%20FRAMED1.jpg)

Willy,

I love that framing.  It's the kind of thing that almost seems a shame to have to sheath.


Considerations,

One foot in front of the other AND the danger of total humiliation. That's what putting the foundation in is all about. Once you do that, you'll look like a complete idiot if years go by and nothing more ever gets done. That foundation will just be sitting there like some monument to broken dreams for the rest of your life.

That's been a pretty powerful motivation for me to find some lumber and get back to work.

Jackson  perfection takes time.  Seriously just do what your money will allow you to do. Once in a while you have to inch out further on the limb than you are confortable to get a needed phase completed.  Shoot I have been working on mine since May/06 and I will put a big dent in it this summer it is far from complete.  But there is alot there and it will not be debt free.  But I'm working on that too.

We're doing the same sort of approach on our straw bale lodge, Jackson:  Make the mistakes on the smaller building and hope to remember them for the next one.

We just finished the foundation and started on the floor last weekend.  It's 24'x18' of post and beam, and it took us odd one and two-day shots since November since we don't live there.  I have to admit that while I want to do a good job, I know I'm also going to post the pictures here so that adds a little motivation to make it look good.  I'll take it!  :D

Good luck on your project.  Please post some pictures when you can.  It's amazing how much help and encouragement you can get from people who never lift one of your boards.  :)

We're building our own just because we can & the pure satisfaction of doing it ourselves. Where other people want the instant gratification, hence hiring someone to do the job, we are happy to do our own selves a little bit at a time. But we have the land & the ambition to do it ourselves. I know not everybody has the time or the know how to do this; but you can if you really, really want to. This I truly believe.
If we do it ourselves we get exactly what we want without trying to convey our ideas to a builder. Plus, if we pay for as we go we do not owe anybody any dollars. No debt. That is the way to go in my book.
Just my 2cents,
Ken

Instant gratification?  Wow, you must know a different set of contractors than the ones I did a few years back.  Nothing "instant" about 'em.  :)

I hear you on the satisfaction part, Ken.  I'm not a builder so a good part of the stuff we do is new for us, or at least the first time on this scale.  My wife gave me grief for getting so much done without her last weekend.  Think about it:  You never get in trouble for doing the dishes by yourself, right? 

I should clarify the instant gratification part: Getting the job done in let's say 3 months instead of my time; which would be who knows how many months?  ;)

I'll answer the question as well, although many of my reasons are echoes of what has been said before.  I believe alot of us have arrived in a very similiar place but with different events that shaped us here. 

A little background about myself, I was raised with my sister by our single mom.  I dont want to lay down a sob story, but it was hard and there were alot of times that we struggled to make it day to day.  We moved a good bit and I learned to fish when we lived in the country and learned other things when we lived in the inner city.  Most of all I learned to think for myself and to adept to change and adversity well.  I now am all grown up with a wife and two kids.  I work with technology, specifically network and telecoms for a large corporation.  Over the last 2 decades I have seen tough times and great times career wise.  I have had years where I pulled over 6 figures and had years where I was laid off 3 times in 2 years.  I learned how fragile our little worlds can be and how fast situations can change.  My goals for my property and my approach to developing it are directly due to my lifes experiences and my desire to have a place for a better life, in good times and bad.  I am not a doomer, but I do recognize the potential for social problems.  Today, my interests for the place are mostly fishing and hunting, although as things are established I see longer stays and eventually a move out there. 

I am interested in building myself because I want things done a certain way.  Specifically, I have focus on sustainability, longevity, security, privacy, self-reliance, independance, and am seeking being able to take pride in the work being done and gain further understanding of how the work is done.  Going with a builder or contractor has little appeal to me as our goals are not in alignment at all.  For them the goal is to complete the job profitably and move on expending as little effort as required.   Maybe not all have this attitude, but enough do for me to generally be turned off on the whole idea.   The last reason that is also important to me is that I want to make these memories with my children.  I have a 6 year old daughter and a 2 year old son, I believe it is critically important to impart to them a sense of living with nature, and not simply consuming it.  There is alot of little things that go into that, and I imagine most of you already know what I mean by it.

Now, how to pay for it?  Well, we have had a "no new debt" rule in effect for 4 years now at my house and I simply refuse to finance a contractor built place.  We have worked very hard to reduce nearly all of our debt (except the house) and adding more to it just isnt an option for us.  It has to be little by little as my time and budget allows.  It pretty much ensures that I wont get in too much over my head.  It also forces me to spend a good bit of time considering every phase and action. 

An interesting thread.

I would have another long answer, and what I would say has already been said many times over.  Let's say, to retire on what we have and not run out of money, we can't afford a mortgage.  So in essence we're trading money for time and time for money.

Also, I guess I don't see myself in a bland box and want to do things in that house that a builder wouldn't do.  A custom builder might, for $$$.
Just look at some of the houses posted on countryplans. WOW!!!!  Innovation is alive and well.

We'll be paying cash when we eventually get started. DH is a soldier and our only debt is a car loan and a student loan, we don't have credit cards even for emergencies. We do have a savings account for emergencies... and insurance! Once the loans we have are paid off, we'll never finance anything else. We should be totally debt free in the next two years tops, hopefully one year. [cool]

We have 7 years to go in the army till DH can retire, but he's planning on staying 11 more years for the extra retirement funds and he's hoping to get more rank those extra four years. If he deploys again in the next couple years me and the kids will live cheap and save, save, save... if he deploys or is sent on an unaccompanied tour 3 or 4 years from now I will head back to upstate NY where we come from and buy some land and get started on this cabin thing with just me and the kids... well, kid, our oldest graduates high school next week! *sniff* We're planning on buying land in southwestern NY or north western PA... maybe PA because of lower taxes, less restrictive gun laws, and the areas look identical.

Well, that was "how" we are doing it... now, "why" are we doing it??? We had always talked about full time RV-ing when we retired. After researching that for a couple years we've decided it's just too expensive. It would eat too much of our retirement pay just in gas and maintaining the RV. So, we like the woods, we love ATVs, we like hard work... neither one of us knows a thing about building a house, so I'm reading as much as I can get my hands on now. Our plan is to build a small shed, or one room cabin to learn on first, then probably a 12'x16' tiny little cabin. That's plenty of indoor space for the two of us. With the way the world is going, we stay home as much as possible anyway. We enjoy each other's company. We hope to be self sufficient by gardening, chopping our own wood, hunting, getting off the grid! That's about it! Oh, and if family ever needs someone to turn to, we'll just build another cabin! lol... funny, but true. We decided a minimum of 10 acres of land... hopefully more. We'll have to see what our budget looks like when the time comes.  :)

Most folks have covered my reasons, as well.  I did it to save money, have it built the way I wanted, for the experience and satisfaction, and because I enjoyed building my house more than sitting at a desk to earn the money to pay someone else to do it.

My wife and I lacked the patience and financial discipline of other folks here.  We paid for about 2/3's the house using a const. loan (we underbudgeted or overspent depending on how you look at it) from Farm Credit (they also hold the mortgage on our land).  I highly recommend them for non-standard building arrangements (as well as non-standard land purchases, i.e., ours was held by multiple folks as an LLC; other banks wouldn't go near us).  They didn't have any problem with the me being the GC or the size of the house or the fact there was no central heating/AC, etc.  The rest was credit cards and cash.

Muldoon, I found your post very interesting. hope to hear more from you.
I built building one (garage w/mega loft) myself (with the help of three framers for three days) because of financial limitations, a dream to do it with my son(s), and just to do it cause I can. (well, I thought I could)

We just completed a house in the mountains of North Carolina.  One thing that helped a lot was Lowes. or should I say the bankers that back Lowes..... If you have good credit, you can approach them as we did.  We asked for approval on the Lowes credit card for $50,000.  The manager seemed incredulous, but after a few calls, they approved us with one year no pay no interest.  We bought our whole framing package, windows too,  and the building was closed in (shell)  on the mountain 3 months before our payment for the framing package was due.  We paid it off.  So it was closed in.  We took a break, then charged up another $25K then after another year paid that off;  went right back and charged up another 50K to finish the house.  It took us four years to do, and we did have some savings....but we built the place with other peoples money!!!!

We went to Home depot, did the same thing with the entire $11K  AC system....again one year no pay, no interest.

If you have good credit,  anythings possible.  If they did it for me, they would do it for others.  I am sure they were hoping we couldnt pay it....then they would have made a whole lot of money.  But they never made a dime on us.  One other thing, if one store says yes and one store says no, guess what, both stores will end up saying yes. 

We were originally going to get a construction loan.  But there would have been a big penalty if we could not get C.O. within 9 months.  We knew that would not be possible....so thats what made us think about this alternative.  Not for  everyone, but worked for us.

A year from now we will pay them for all the wood flooring oyeah, and the flat screen TV we got at HD......

Thanks tsmart.  A good tip for constructive financing. and w* to the forum.

Hi All,

I read one of your blogs about building and paying cash.  I just bought some land cash and can't wait for my condo to sell.  I work a stressful job and can't wait for the day when I can work wherever I want and be able to enjoy my job and not worry about how little I make.
The land came with an abandoned mobile home.  I put it on freecycle to give away as scrap metal.  The people who wanted it changed their mind after they realized what a big job it is.  Well they left a really big mess and I and my friend Warren have been cleaning it up for 3 weeks.  Today we uncovered the ibeams on 75 percent, hauled off another 3 loads of trash and burned all day.  It is hard work, but my idea that it is mine and I can envision the property as it could be keeps me with the motivation.  I brought in a load of crash -n run as well.  The road is clay and sloppy when wet.  I will keep working on the land and looking at the projects you are all working on for my inspiration.
Tracy

 w* Tracy...  congrats on the land!  We have clay here too so I know what you mean...  was walking around this afternoon after it had been raining for a couple days - gets pretty mushy where it hasn't been compressed or road slate/gravel put on it. 

Lots of good ideas here 8)

Welcome to the forum, Tracy.  The old MH's are a lot of work to remove.  I gave away an old motor home to get rid of it without tearing it apart or paying dump fees.  It could have been usable but no longer worth it.

For us like others mention Independence and the ability to live the rest of our lives with real security that we don't have to store in paper (ie: money lol). Why are we building it ourselfs?  It's always been something I wanted to do in life.  We are also building a unique house and someone who is a builder would not complelty understand it .  Another reason is simply money, we would rather have time then money to do things like build.

A bit of background:  Our thought is that we can design a house that is as efficient and simple (lack of electric powered adaptions, ie water pump, pressure tank, furnance etc).  We are 29 now and we both work part time .  I work 2 days a week (10 hours) in IT and she works 3 days in programing.  Simply living has it's perks ,we have around 10 Grand saved up and should have another 7 Grand by July.  .  We have land all ready purchased and paid for in cash.  We owe a bit of cash still on our current home (60k) but no other debts.  The land we are building on has 14 acres of wooded land, very close to a city in southern tier of NY State.  The land was picked b/c we be attempting to build a completely passive solar house.  There is a great southern exposure.  The land has a spring above where we are building that flows 20-25 gpm.  With an addition of a small holding tank to increase the pressure ( only 20' drop to house),we will have pressurized water for our home with no need for any electric powered system.

The house will basically be a earth-bermed drystacked block house, think one story basement with roof.   Due south has windows and there will also be passive solar collectors ( not PV) outside the house that will attach to dry,insulated earth below our house.  This will allow us to harvest the solar rays of dead summer OUTSIDE the house so we won't over heat but can still use that energy ( an attempt to fix the flaw i see with conventional earthships).  John Hait has written about energy storage in the earth around your house and this is the system that we have adapted (and twisted a bit ;).   Again simplicity and low maintenance being key!  No pumps or furnaces if we can help it.  We will also have a wood stove as a back up. 

Power is tricky, we have a spring that connects with another spring and runs down the hill around 180 ft drop.  So there is really good potential for a water turbine.  this will most likley wait till after house is built.   Also an option becuase we are on top of a hill is wind.  We have a high spot of the top of our land that sits in bedrock that would be perfect for a tower.  The wind maps also say it's good site ..I think it averages 12-14mph winds .  So one or the other, or maybe both down the road.

We are currently in the permit process!  We have an excavator scheduled to start the end of the week leveling the spot for the house and making a small pond.

We are living in the firstday cottage we built to sell (we ending selling our other house before our firstday cottage so we moved in ) right now and will most likley be until summer 2010 when it will go back on the market and we should be complete with the new and put the firstday on the market and we will be debt free plus ++++++++++ :) happy dance

Sorry for long post!  Good thread!

Jeff

Hi, Jeff! Sounds like a great project.  [cool]I'd like to hear more about the spring/tank water system. How will the tank increase the water pressure to the house without a pump? Will it be set much higher than the house to gain more pressure by gravity? If so, will you use something like a hydraulic ram to move the water up to the tank, or? http://www.clemson.edu/irrig/equip/ram.htm

Great to hear from you again, Jeff and looking forward to seeing your new project.  The water ram Harry mentions could help with your pressure issue.  80 feet elevation would get you up to about 32 lbs.  20 feet gives you a bit over 8lbs.  .433 lbs per foot of elevation.

HI harry!  Hi Glen !  Thanks for yer comments.

I'm glad you all commented it made me formalize my thoughts a bit.  My plan is to create the water holding tank as a resivor by the spring.  Then running 2" High Density Plastic Pipe to the house.  From the house out the sizes would change a bit depending on need.  Like for instance 1/2" to toilet, maybe 1" to 2" pipe going to showers and sink.  On the clothes washer use whatever pipe is the largest size that would attach to it and if it fills a bit slower I'm ok with that.  In the shower use a large surface area shower head (maybe a 1' in diameter) with lots of holes to take advantage of the volume and have it directly overhead so it doesn't need the pressure to SHOOT it into you.

The holding tank would increase the time I could sustain a higher volume of water flowing though the pipe.  By using larger diameter pipes in the key areas It would reduce the frictional losses and remove the standard 1/2" bottle neck typical with high pressure type systems. 

This is my thought process on how to compensate and adapt to what I have in  a simple way  d*  d*  .  I would love to hear anything you all think could be an issues...  i want to make sure the system has the best chance of working i can.

I will definitely start up a project thread , b/c I really want to contribute in someway. 
Jeff

Looking forward to the thread, Jeff.  I just put in a solar powered livestock watering system using a Flowjet 12v water pump - It takes 84 watts and pressures to 50 lbs - 2.9 gpm  I put a 12v battery and 2 - 40watt panels to provide water at 50 PSI day and night.  Just a low cost pressure system idea - no tank needed - the pump has it's own switch.  You could add a bladder tank for larger quantity but it all adds cost

I think your reasoning is sound on the large diameters for low pressures.

There are free wind turbine plans on the net also.

Thanks for thinking of the rest of us. :)

oh... neat glen.  If if need an extra boost ,I do like that idea alot.   I like sound thinking ..sometimes my theories seem to involve plantary alignments to work out :)

My reasons for building:
1. I hate the machine of debt and government control that has enslaved my ancestors back as far as I know their names.

2. I recognized early in my adult life that a mortgage is the primary mechanism by which our populace is controlled and contained, and that it is what keeps people from doing what they want to with their lives.  Anytime I hear someone say "I'd like to do such and such", their reason for not doing it boils down to their mortgage payment. People aren't even able to protest the horrible injustices that occur occasionally in this country because they can't take time off work because they are home-owned instead of home-owners.

3. I am not the property of a bank or the state. I don't want anything from them, and I wish to deprive them of as much of the fruit of my labor as possible. They wish to make me into their property and treat me as a farm animal to be milked for all the value they can extract from me before I die.  They wish to use that money to further oppress me and future generations. There is already so much we have to pay The Machine by force under threat of violence or imprisonment, it seems ludicrous to voluntarily pay even more via participating in the mortgage mechanism. Paying on a mortgage with interest, to me, plays right into their plans for my life for them to own me and my children. I am wired such that I could never have any peace of mind trying to live with a mortgage.

4. When I realized how vast the multitude of scoffers was, I knew that I had to build my own house so that they would realize they are in the situation they are in because of choices they make, and because they are too lazy to do anything about it, not because it is their unchangeable fate to drown in debt and live an insecure life, raising their children as children of slaves instead of free people.  We live in a somewhat free country, but what good does it do if everyone throws it away by purposely engaging in debt-slavery? Slavery is slavery, whether it is under the lash, or under debt. Look at the current mortgage crisis. The people have been fattened for slaughter, and their mortgages have become a plunder for their oppressors. Not my idea of a good time.

5. I thought it would be much easier than it actually is. Had I known how hard this would be I probably would have just bought a bigger RV :)

How I'm paying:
Cash. I work two jobs currently but haven't done that the whole time, just for about a year.  I recommend the two-job thing to anyone who has free time but is whining about not having enough money. The 40 hr work week is an invention of man, not something you have to limit yourself to if there is a driving reason to do otherwise.  I know a lot of people who spend beyond their means and then whine about their economic situation, but refuse to give up their hours and hours of TV every evening to go make themselves more productive in order to bring their income in line w/ their spending.  Of course when the house is done I'll quit one maybe both jobs. It isn't something I'd want to do forever but it is a relatively straight forward and risk free way to solve the money problem to get cash for building. 

Quote from: speedfunk on November 23, 2008, 11:09:16 AM
oh... neat glen.  If if need an extra boost ,I do like that idea alot.   I like sound thinking ..sometimes my theories seem to involve plantary alignments to work out :)

The low pressure could work fine but it is nice to have other ideas just in case, Jeff.  I forgot to mention that the Flowjet is about $85  Solar panels about $400 Regulator $17 Battery about $100 for this stand alone system for water from about 9 feet below the pump maximum - but the low pressure feed would be great. 

That is about what we have at the system above - maybe 20 feet head pressure incoming from the spring, pumping 64 feet elevation 150 feet distance uphill.  The pump shuts off at 50 psi and the float in the stock water tank simply floats closed shutting of the pump until the horses drink, whereupon the pump automatically starts.  Full tank takes about 5 hours - battery is good for ten hours and the solar is enough to run the pump without the battery in the day time.

(https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/horsewater1.jpg)

The pump motor has a heat sink on it that I made from corrugated aluminum roofing - just to increase pumping time and decrease cooling time.  The pump is available in another special order model somewhere with a heat sink but my Mickey Mouse one works well.

             I have a plan that I hope will allow me to "retire" at age 39 after 10 more years of work.  I am 29.  I have refinanced my home to a 10 year fixed rate mortgage.  I also have some disposable income that goes into a savings account towards the purchase of land and eventually for building my house.  I have about 30% of my house paid off right now (it would be about 40% if home values hadn't dived).   I have enough savings to buy land now, but I may keep saving so I can buy better land.  I just recently lost out on some property that someone beat me to. 

   During the next 10 years I hope to save money and acquire the resources to start up my future business, buy and build with zero overhead.  I plan to keep my house in the city which is in a yuppie neighborhood with great schools and rent it out.  This rental income will be a cushion if my business turns out to be minimally profitable.    I have narrowed my business down to 3 areas I really enjoy but am having trouble deciding on which to pursue.

   Some of the most influential factors in coming up with my plan were as follows. 

1) I downloaded an amortization schedule on excel and it just blew my mind.  I ended up starting at it and crunching numbers for hours.  I kind of became a huge geek with it and have my finances mapped out to 2020 (with a lot of very conservative assumptions).

2) I have always loved building things ever since I was young.  I used to build with blocks non stop.  I am really going to get a lot of enjoyment out of building my own house and then living in it. 

3) I have been reading a lot of Gene Logsdon, and really appreciate his tips on life and his outlook on finances.  I strongly suggest anyone look into him.  I think people on this forum would especially appreciate his take on things.

4) I really do not enjoy my job and can't imagine doing it much longer.

Good plans SansPlans & Mike 870...  I never really thought about a lot of those things when I was younger...  just trying to survive, raise my kids, have a good paying job...  Glad that I did go back to school & get my degree in nursing - good paying, flexible, lots of variety...  so it has helped me become more independent - with both Glenn & I - we're on our way to being debt free - not there yet, but hopefully I'll have some money left in my Thrift Savings Acct (TSP) the federal gov't 401K - to pay off the one mortgage we have in the valley unless we sell the place... 

We are pretty independent/self-sufficient here at the Underground headquarters, tho... 

Hello to all i have been doing alot of reading on here and its nice to see so many on here with some smarts . i lived in the city for 22 years and then move to nw arkansas to live what i  call a free life . i gave it up and moved my wife and i back to the city bad move . now all we think about is getting back to the lake area in nw arkansas , so here i am trying to get back to the free life by building my home on my own land . we are trying get some land with cash and get a loan to build a 20x34 . 


any help would be awsome

w* to the forum bkiller.  We collect up the smart people in the world and ask them to post here.  Hope things work out for you. :)

bkiller, welcome!! I believe with the economy in the shape it is now that I would NOT borrow a dime from anyone for anything. Debt is bad and going to get worse before it gets better. My advice is to pay off everything you owe and save up and pay cash instead of borrowing. I know that is not the American way but, it is the smart way and a damn site less stressful. To be able to say not only did I build it myself but, its all mine, free and clear. What a wonderful feeling that is.
Okie Bob

It's all been touched on above. I'm lucky to have a good job and a generous salary, but I'd still like to know that if it all went to hell in a hand-basket one day, we wouldn't be homeless. It took this last downturn to make me reconsider keeping all of my retirement in stocks and bonds, and so I'm tapping my 401k to buy the land and build a house.

Makes no sense, I'll admit - to incur the penalties and cash out at the bottom of the market - but it's something I've wanted to do for 10 years and been afraid to. I'm 41 now and beginning to realize that 'someday' may never come, so I'm throwing caution and good sense to the wind.

That and the fact that building something with your hands beats the hell out of documenting computer systems any day of the week.

It actually does make sense as it may not be there at all if you wait.  Bad deal and hard to call but at least you will have something positive rather than sitting back and watching as it slowly gets stolen.

Sassy's is locked up and she pretty well has to quit to get it - otherwise it would already be out rather than dying a slow death.

Hello from Idaho. 

The What:

Over the last two years we have acquired and paid for 80 acres of high desert mountain property (~6000ft).  It is original deeded ground surrounded by BLM.  Last fall we surveyed it and this spring we will fence it to keep the BLM grazing cows out of it.  The land is very rocky, mostly sage and grass with some juniper and mahogany.  It is not very accessible in the winter but should provide a great place during 9mo. of the year.

After fencing this spring we plan to build a cabin shell, something like a 20x32 1-1/2 story.  Budget is about $15,000 for post/pier foundation, 2x6 framing, metal roof, fibercement siding, window/shutters, paint, etc.  We are operating strictly on cash. We will finish the interior and utilities next year.

There is a small creek/canyon running through the property with year round water.  There are NO services so we will have compost toilet, solar/wind power, wood heat.

The Why:

This is a family project with my mother and brother.  All the years I was growing up we spent a lot our free time in the mountains living in cow camps, lean-tos, etc.  We all really miss it and want to share it with the younger generations who unfortunately are mostly city raised.  We want a place for the extended family to gather and spend time.  My mother who is retiring at 70 plans to live there about half time.  We will do all the work ourselves because we can and we enjoy it.  It is also too remote to really hire anyone to do any of the work.

Over time we will probably build two other small structures, one for my brother and one for my wife and I so we can get away from the hoard of kids and grandkids at the main cabin.

We plan to plant a garden and fruit trees along the creek.  All of us hope to find a way to at least summer on the mountain. I will need to find a telecommute job for my IT profession to make that work.

Sounds like a fun and worthwhile project. :)