John's 20x30 1.5 Story - Washington

[jcsforager]

Getting going on this project! Scraped the building site last week and layed my lines. I'm doing the Post/Pier foundation. Ground is solid clay. Yesterday I put in my first Pier Block and before I move on I want to see that I'm doing this correctly. For clay soil I see that I should have a 24x24x12 block. What I have done is used a 24x24x8" frame and dug down to solid ground for the perimiter. Setting this I then dug down further into the ground allowing the clay to act as the bottom mold w/ the top portion contained in wood mold. Stomped gravel in bottom and poured. I used 7.5 60lb bags for this.  I then took a square made of 4 1' rebar sections wired together and pushed it down into the concrete to reinforce. I'm thinking and I have been told by a few friends that digging out deeper into the ground will stabelize the pier further. I'm wanting to make sure of this technique before I move on. Other techniques I have read (Do It Yourself Housbuilding) have the Pier PreCast and then placed. This would be a flat bottom resting on gravel. I figure why move it if I can pour directly. My lines are on but I'm choosing to drill anchors in once I have my posts set.  I will post pics of my progress in link below. You can review pics of Pier work .

Cut and Past link in Browser

http://new.photos.yahoo.com/jcsforager/album/576460762394802576

Hopefully it won't be to wet of a spring!
john

[glenn kangiser]

Generally firmer, deeper solider bigger, is better but lacking soil testing and engineering specs, it is pretty well up to you to decide what is good enough.  Better to overdo it a bit than to stop short.  Somewhere in there is just the right size.  

You might post a question to John in the plans support section as he has the footing loading figured and I assume that the larger footings he recommends will support the house on the lower soil bearing weight locations.  He may get an answer to you quicker there.

What you have done looks great to me though.  Nice photos.  The link works fine from your posting.

[John Raabe]

I strongly suggest using the post and pier foundation plan (sht. 1) of the 20x30 1.5 story plans.

Most ground in WA freezes to some depth and if you are pouring a pier at grade onto a bed of clay you will have to expect it to heave in frost action. Over several years the house will shift out of level. Many folks have built something similar to what you are doing for the Little House plans but they have either built in very mild climates and/or on well draining gravel soils. There are examples of such houses in the Owner-Builder Gallery.

The foundation shown in the plans has foundation grade PT posts or concrete tube piers down to a footing below frost line. It looks to me that the foundation you are starting, while fine for a shed, is not a good investment for a permanent house in the soil you describe.

Here's the free P&P overview.

[jcsforager]

Great advice, thanks. I understand that I need to get down to below frost line. In the case of Washington from what I understand is that this is maximum about 12" down. What I am thinking is that I will have a better chance of keeping my posts from dirt and bugs if I have them resting on a pier that is above grade. My idea was then that if I ever had to I could remove the pier easily for replacement. If I wanted to do this could I dig down say 16-24" below grade a 24x24 hole and then fill this w/ concrete. Once it starts to go above grade I would then use the mold to hold the form.  It may be easier to do Sonotube attached to Pier but I like the Posts as I can level them later. For the pictures I posted I did dig down about 16" although the bottom hole isn't a complete 24x24. I then am planning to backfill w/ gravel. If this isn't a good idea I will start over and dig down about two feet and then pour my 24x24x12 pier and backfill around post w/ gravel as shown in the plan.

[PEG688]

 Where in Washington?? Just curious on Whidbey Island.  

[jcsforager]

I'm South of Port Townsend near Quilcene. Cool little spot. We are off the grid. Just picked up this Houghs Net dish so I have internet, (when I turn on the generator). New addition to the forest but nice to be connected. We are excited to get a roof so we can work on some solar pannels.  

john

[John Raabe]

Yes, where you are a 12" frost depth is probably conservative (Eastern parts of the state and up in the mountains the story is quite different, of course.  )

It sounds to me like your proposed footings should be fine. Freezing clay is a worry but you should not get frost action below the footings in your location. Take care to get ground water away from the house footprint with gutters and downspouts as this will also help dry out the site.

Nice area. We'll look forward to seeing how this comes together for you.

[jcsforager]

Got the Foundation deck built. Now upwards!  
Oversized all piers. 24x24 and dug down 16-18". Got my fill of concrete.  About 480lbs per pier. Used local old growth Cedar for piers w/ offset/risers on brackets and tar paper between to keep off concrete.  

I'm ordering my lumber pack for the framing and have a few questions regarding the roofing on the gable ends. For the Barge Rafters that are nailed to the Outriggers do they need to connect to an exteded Ridge beam?  If so would I want to order a 34' ridge to have the overhang?  What I was planning to do was attach Barge rafter to outriggers and then tack the two meeting Barge rafters to each other but then thought that I could extend the ridge to make this more solid?  

Doing the open ceiling.  Do I need loft joists/ colar ties in place before I do my rafters or can I put these in after the rafters? Figure the gable ends will hold everthing in place but checking before I get into this.

Updated pics - click on my first link.
thanks,
john

[jraabe]

It will be more solid for the barge to be connected to an extended ridge board, however the outriggers are doing most of the tie-in so it probably isn't worth a lot of extra work.

Yes, you can tie things together with the loft joists after the roof is framed. You may want to install a couple in order to get planks down for staging. And, don't do this the night of the 100 year windstorm.

Maybe PEG or one of our other journeymen carpenters have another opinion. I wouldn't be concerned if you have a partial loft in place but if it is all 12' high walls with no tension ties across the width, it may be possible to have a short term load that would cause a problem. (Like the dozer bumping the house.)

[peg_688]

 Yes it would be nice , not required to extend your ridge brd. Is it a beam ?? Like a 4x 12 or some thing?? You called it a beam , John R. called it a ridge brd meaning  2x 10, /12 , in which case it could be spliced , like 2 ea, 16' =32 LF.

If you saw it , revxlt,  posted a thread on a true beam (4 by)  that ran end to end , set on posts , so full length was important to that design.  

You may be confusing me with your terms generally a collar tie is attach to the rafters after they are up . If you have floor joist for what sounds like aloft , I'd say put them in they'll hold the walls together while your putting up your rafters , you  could even stage off them making your life easier like this ,


 

 The ridge and rafters as you add them want to push that ridge down the way they do that is by pushing the walls out / spreading them .  

So if your not doing a loft and have a open ceiling you'll need to brace the crap outta those side walls before you start setting your rafters .

Another tip that I do is set a temp post close , the closer the better, you can see the temp prop in my photo ,   at the height of the ridge bottom one on each end to set the ridge on , then do one pair of rafters on each end. once those four are set the ridge should be level , then I fill in , in pairs one from each side , working your way down the ridge . I also do a couple of pair on one end then go back to the other end , keeping things / the load sort of equal . Thatw ay you can push up / or down / east or west that ridge board as you go along.  If you put to many or all of just one side of the rafters up you'll play hell pushing all that weight back up as if done that way again the weight will want to push the ridge down.  So set the rafters in adjoining pairs as you go.

 In this  photo ,  

Humm didn't post , :-? your photo #50 from your post.

  I see you ran your sheeting the ,   ah , wrong way . The T&G part should be crossing over the joist , which would stop the flexing of the sheets as you walk on them , it looks like you added,  at least in one place , some 1x4 to support that . Anyway your sheeting / sheathing should , almost always ,  there could be exceptions , run the other way so the 4' side is falling on the joist or rafter , the 8' T&G edge interlocks and supports the plywood / OSB between the joist. On your roof you'll need "H" clips unless you are 16" OC with your rafters , it is still even with 16"OC center to put one "H" clip centered between the rafters.  

G/L PEG    

BTW it's aways a wet spring   And well winter and fall for that matter   Summers nice   You know August 3rd and 4th  

 

 

[jcsforager]

Well, now I know on the Ply. With glue and plenty of nails the current configuraiton will be sufficient. We are planning to run hardwood over top so will be pleny firm hopefully.

Doing a loft so I will get those loft floor joists in place to hold the walls. The yard I'm buying some of my lumber is selling me a 30ft Versa Lam for my ridge beam/board. This was my option but not to familiar with them. Any better sugestions?

john

[peg_688]

When you do your hardwood run it 90 deg. to the joist so you can nail into every joist top it will be fine that way.

If it talks a long time to get to the hardwood  you could go under the place and screw and glue plywood gussets at the joists to stiffen them.  Or have soem one go under to hold and glue the gusset while some else above screws down thru the floor into the gusset, Per drill a countersunk hole a bit large then the screw you use so the screw pulls the gusset up to the flooring. The reason I say pre drill is that if you don't the screww will push the gusset down and away before it can pull it tight . The pre drilled over sized hole make sthe screw work for you instead of against you right outta the gate.

 A versa lam beam 3 " or so wide and 32 ' long  will be heavy :oto get into place by hand .

So do you need a beam??    John R. does he in this plan??

A ridge out of 2x12 like in my photo may work , a inspector will want the whole cut of the rafter supported , in the old days the ridge did not need to be fully bearing / supporting , we just fill in under the ridge witheither or what ever 2x4 , / 2x6 ,  it takes to fill it out.  Heck a lot of old places had 1x ridge boards , so just had rafters butted into one another .  It really the collar tie / floor joist that stop the spreading , if it can't spread the walls the ridge can't sagg basically, there are exceptions .

But in general in old houses / barns etc , if the ridge is sagged the walls are either spreading out / bowed , or they and rotting / settleing into the ground .


If your doing a beam it should look similar to this ,
 



So it depends , LSL might work for your ridge , I wouldn't use it for that use but that may just be me , a 2 by would be my choice unless a beam is really needed.
 

[jcsforager]

The Versa Lam that was quoted by the yard is 1 3/4 x 11 7/8. This will be heavy.  John's plans call out for a 2x12 ridge. I rather use this but was thinking that it had to one continuous sections (30ft)  The yards don't sell 2x12x30. Can you recomend the appropriate way to splice to 16' sections. Would this be sufficient?

Thanks for the pics, helpfull.  I rather get to the hardwood sooner than later.  

For our loft I'm helping a friend mill up some 4x12x20's (using same design in plan as the DBL 2x12) next week that we will put 24 OC. I will get these up before I head onto the roof. These won't be light either but will for sure hold the walls.

[jraabe]

It sounds like you are doing the Timber Style Open Beam ceiling detail (sheet 9 in the booklet that comes with the 1.5 story plans).

In that detail the ridge is non-structural and I call out a 2x12. It does not need to be continuous. It stabilizes and provides a nailer for the rafters which are tied at the plate with a rafter tie (I show an exposed built-up beam) every 48". If you will be doing a loft floor here and using these as loft joists, then the milled 4x12 @ 24" will make good sense and provide a handsome beam and decking ceiling below.

[jcsforager]

Great, thanks.  I am doing the open celing.  I will use the 2x12 for the ridge.  Will keep ya posted.
john

[MountainDon]

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[jcsforager]

I'm buying my plywood today and noticed on the materials list there is the 1/2 x 4 x 8 Grooved APA siding Panel at roof overhangs. Not familiar with this but I assume this is simply a more weather resistant sheathing?  Is this necessary for roof overhangs oposed to using the same 1/2" roof sheeting for the entire roof?
thanks,
john

[peg_688]

I'm buying my plywood today and noticed on the materials list there is the 1/2 x 4 x 8 Grooved APA siding Panel at roof overhangs. Not familiar with this but I assume this is simply a more weather resistant sheathing?  Is this necessary for roof overhangs oposed to using the same 1/2" roof sheeting for the entire roof?
thanks,
john

American Plwood Association =APA what John means is a finished looking 1/2" plywood , or OSB generally called PL Plane . So if you are not enclosing your eaves and or soffits you won't be looking at the back side of CDX / or OSB. If your soffits are OPEN you should / could use shorter roofing nails in that area as well 3/4" work so they don't poke thru. Looks bad is all , you could just CDX / OSB the whole roof a matter of "looks" really.

The grooved part is sort of odd as most "Grooved" plywood or LP is 5/8" thick , think T1-11, maybe John likes that" Look of boards" on the soffit . You could cut so it ran crossways to the rafters and it would look sort of like a board soffit / roof sheathing from underneath/ looking up at it  .

 

[jraabe]

Yep, PEG has the idea I'm after. You could use straight ACX plywood if you will be painting. Whatever you use for the exposed eaves you want to try and match the thickness of the roof sheathing but have something more weather resistant. I used 1x4 T&G cedar that we planed down to the thickness of the roof sheathing.

[jcsforager]

Got the rafters up. I was laughing (sort of in my head) as I recall John mentioning to avoid putting up the rafters and ridge on a windy day. As we set the ridge and before we even had a nail in it a big gust of wind came and both of us on the two ends were pulling back on it as hard as we could as I watched the middle bow out. Happy ending though, rafters are up and ridge is level. Adding false rafters this weekend and then sheeting and shingles.  Anybody have preferences on siding membrane.  Tyvek seems to be pretty standard but any other types that people have used w/ sucess?

http://new.photos.yahoo.com/jcsforager/album/576460762394802576

john

[jraabe]

Thanks John for the update.

I like good old tarpaper best. While it isn't as good an airsealer as Tyvek it breathes well and can serve as a rain screen breaking the capillary attraction between the siding and the wall sheathing. This is important if you use wood siding and can have wind driven rain. Judging from this pic grabbed from your Yahoo blog it may rain there at times. (Rain in Quilcene, WA? Unheard of!! )



PS - I think airsealing is best done from the interior side, with drywall and Tyvek wrapped rim joists. For the best rain screen effect you should use the crinkly #30 felt.

[jcsforager]

Roofing.  I'm going to order my metal roofing next week and am getting some different opinions on the "cold roof" system.  The guys at the yard who are quoting me the metal told me to simply slap it on top of the 30# felt. I have several friends in the area who have done the same.  Some of my readings have suggested the "cold roof" system with 1x material between felt and metal for venting. Seems logical but if I don't need to? Any ideas or those who have used either technique?  

thanks,
john

[jraabe]

The cold roof standoff system will not really be needed in your climate.

It is a good idea to control ice dams and such in cold climates where you have deep snow that sticks around on the roof.

[MountainDon]

The pros who did my metal roof on the house just stripped off the old shingles, put on a new weather barrier and then the steel on top of that.

I had differing opinions on whether or not the old shingles had to come off... there were no leaks. But I liked the idea of removal better (even tho' that raised the cost) The clincher was my insurer told me I'd get a discount for re-roofing with 26 ga. metal, but only if the old asphalt shingles were removed.   :-?   Of course I'll have to remain in the house and live long enough to benefit, but what the heck.

[peg_688]

I'm wondering how that roof when up, from the photo's I'd guess you used some of my suggestions .


On the metal roof , just paper it with 30 lbs felt and lay the roofing right on it , no need for the airspace in our area like John said .

On re roofs it is best to strip it , metal lay's funkie over comp. , so Mtn. D you did it right for what thats worth .