Additional cost of building on a moderate slope?

[Pallas]

Hi all,

Continuing the land-buying story, over the last 2 weeks I looked at a few more parcels and have most recently focused on one in particular, which I think has the most promise. A quick overview:

* ~ 2 hours from NYC
* 5.68 lightly wooded acres
* Slight elevation, with approx. 20% slope at the higher grades. No real views that I saw, as it's still midway up a higher mountain
* Reasonably priced and with some light upkeep as the owner has 11 acres next door and bought it at an auction 20 years ago for privacy
* No well or septic, but neighboring houses have these and the soil is a well-draining type. There are also several spots for possible leach fields. However, there's a driveway in and a dirt road to a semi-cleared building site by the owner. Other spots available at higher elevations but with steeper slopes.

,

* No wetlands or floodplains, but owner says it stays "wetter" at the bottom flat elevation since that's where the run-off is. All surrounding houses seem to be built slightly higher than the lower elevation (though that could also be due to privacy since that's where the road is)
* Stream at the bottom parallel to the road and small man-made pond in the corner
* Stone wall between owner's lot and this one

I really liked the land when I walked it, and the owner is a very straightforward and pleasant character. He's not in a hurry to sell, has no real need, and I basically sought him out myself after learning he had tried to sell it some months ago. He mostly doesn't want to sell to a developer or subdivider or anyone who would be a bad neighbor.

SO, here comes my question - given that the more suitable building sites are all elevated, with grades from ~10% -20% - approximately how much more expensive is this going to be to build on, compared to a level lot? It didn't feel prohibitively steep while walking it, but there's definitely a slope. I'm attaching the survey with elevation and you can see where the (other) neighbor's house was built:

; and


In principal, this isn't something I'd mind too much, as I also hope to use the land for some permaculture-y garden things, so the use of natural slope/gravity would be an asset in some cases. However, the soil is also very rocky up there so I know that digging and foundations will already be a challenge without bringing slopes into the equation. Any thoughts on this?

Edited: to embed images

[NathanS]

Not sure I have much to add to all you've said. It sounds like a much better property than the last one, and the challenges you've listed are more in line with what you will see with any land. That already installed driveway may be a big bonus, I am guessing there is also already a culvert across the stream which is nice. It could represent several thousand dollars of savings and one less thing to deal with.

With the amount of snow we get up here, any driveway over 4% grade can be a little dicey if you don't have 4 wheel drive. Also, at that length you will either need a machine - tractor w/ loader or snowblower attachment (just assume $10k+ for something decent) or you will need to hire someone to clear the driveway, not sure how much that costs. At that length you probably can't get by with a walk behind snowblower. Just something to consider. From the picture and survey, it looks like only the last bit of driveway will be uphill.

For running the electric it will likely be more cost effective to have someone come in and dig a trench and lay the line yourself.

I think the increased costs will have more to do with distance from the road than the slope.

Building into a hillside could be an opportunity to do a 1-story with walkout basement... ground level entrances to both floors would be really nice. What is the price difference between a crawl space 2 story and a 1-story with walkout basement in a hillside? Probably not too much.

There are limits to how steep the slope can be for a septic system, I don't think that's an issue here, but something to consider. The NYS septic handbook would at least give you some basic answers before hiring an engineer to come out and perc/design. You definitely want to confirm the septic system won't cost something extraordinary or require special approvals from the township or county.

You also said the seller is the neighbor, and that he seemed like a good person. It is really important to have good neighbors. We bought our land from our (now) neighbor. It was a good experience, and they are good people.

[Pallas]

Thanks very much for the thorough response Nathan, it's very much appreciated. This property is definitely a step up from that last one, and it's priced at +17k more to reflect it, but I think still fair. The existing driveway (with culvert in place for stream) is definitely a plus.

It's good to know that slope isn't necessarily the largest determining factor for higher costs - I keep hearing that site work and ground leveling are a substantial part of the budget, and figured that leveling a slope is quite more expensive than flatter land. If extending the driveway up to steeper ground is what breaks the bank, I may just settle for a house site closer to the existing infrastructure and keep the top parts as dirt paths.

On the snow - I was thinking of getting a snow plow attachment for a truck that I would get once I have land (something compact that wouldn't be too much of a hassle in NYC streets like the Ford Ranger). I'd love any excuse to get heavy machinery right away, but may have to save that for after the house is built and rent as needed.

Those are great points about the septic design and slope - I'll have to look into that handbook before negotiations and ordering a BOHA. How can one determine the scope of a potential system prior to the actual perc test? I figured by then, I would have already committed to the purchase as long as it's approved.

Thanks again.

[Pallas]

Also, I just learned how to embed images so I've updated the original post. Hope that's clearer

[GaryT]

I've now built 5 houses for myself in country settings.  Were I you, I would be absolutely sure that the ground percs for a conventional septic system.  You can spend upwards of 25,000 for an engineered septic system if the soil is not suitable for something resembling a standard system.  I just did this in Canada for river front land we bought to build a cottage on.  Before we signed on the dotted line, we got one of the local septic contractors to do the perc testing, and had the province approve it as well before signing.  Septic systems can be such a deal (and pocketbook) breaker.  I can't stress this process enough!
Gary

[NathanS]

I couldn't see the second picture before, showing power lines running through the property already. That may save some money not having to pull electric from the road. Also would have to consider the location of the lines for home building site though.

I really don't know a ton about sitework.. it's not cheap, and a substantial portion of the budget no matter the lay of the land. The most cost effective way to build a house on a slope is to set the house into the slope, rather than trying to level out the slope. That was why I mentioned a walkout basement. A user here, SouthernTier, is currently building a house that is set into a slope similar to yours. That is much more what I had in mind.

The second picture makes it look like the driveway already goes up the slope? The satellite drawing shows it leading to that field? It's not an easement for someone else right? Also noticed the abandoned house thing, I wonder what that's about.

With snow removal, wasn't trying to sound like a naysayer, it's just important to be realistic with how much work it is. Getting 6-7 feet of snow every winter, it would get old putting the plow off and on all the time before a long commute.


Gary is also totally right. Read the handbook to educate yourself. It will also even explain how to do a perc test, so you could fiddle with that before paying an engineer to see if it's worth paying the engineer. But you do need to be sure that you won't be spending 20-30k on a sand mound. The county I live in is likely even less heavily regulated than yours, but the engineer told us a couple horror stories about raised beds needing to go through a special permitting process that could take over a year.

[GaryT]

This was the last home i built, with a walkout basement.  One of the advantages of a walkout (beyond the obvious) is the ability to daylight foundation drain lines easily and effectively.


Gary

[MushCreek]

We built on a similar slope. We went with a walk-out basement for a number of reasons. I don't like living on a slab, and I'm not crazy about crawlspaces, either. All of my utilities are in the basement ceiling for easy access. Where it's ground level, I have large windows and a door, making it pleasant and usable living space. As said above, it's easy to drain the foundation to prevent a damp/wet basement. Due to a number of precautions, our basement stays very dry. On the main floor, it has a 'tree house' feel, as our back deck is some 10' off of the ground.

I have no idea of cost differences, though. Our soil was easy digging, and I'm sure it wasn't much more expensive than going up two stories, and it was certainly cheaper than making the house twice as big on one floor, plus all of the fill that would have had to be brought in to level it. The dirt they dug out was used to fill a space for the garage, so thye didn't have to move it far. I also like the more natural look of fitting the house to the land. Our basement (and main floor) is ICF, so it is well insulated. IN SC, our basement is a comfortable temperature year-round with no HVAC at all.

The other option would be to build on posts, but then you have a lot of work to do insulating the floor and plumbing, and you've created a habitat for all sorts of critters to take up residence underneath.

[Dave Sparks]

I did not like the idea of a slab either but came up with a cheaper method/design.

It is the old carriage house design. The slab is always going to be cheaper unless you are in granite. We took the best of both worlds. The slab is the garage and no plumbing in the slab. The 2nd floor is living and everything is accessible from underneath. You get a very nice conditioned space in the garage (not in New York though) for free and heating upstairs is fairly easy. The cooling in summer was solved in 2007 when mini-split heat pumps came out.

Just a thought. Link to my pix.
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipOgnmWeNVSyRaxa_K8_EBtE6L5rOuvpNgiU1ATXyTlrJbmVEfZp00mNowopQbi0Hw?key=Y0dDeTlVbmV5ZmhJV3B6Z3ZKNjZ6ZmU5WnhCUkV3

[Pallas]

Thanks all. I've never been a basement kind of gal and didn't envision a basement in my designs, which would have meant actively digging for one in flat land (I assumed a flat lot until I found this one). However, I can see the benefits of a walkout/daylight basement as long as the hill has to be cut into anyway - and I do agree that fitting the house into the slope vs. on top of it is the ideal situation.

I had always heard the slab is the most economical and I didn't care about a basement anyway, so now I'm questioning if this site would "make" me get a basement, and thus increase the loose budget I have in my head because of the slope (vs. finding a flat lot).

Regarding the other questions:

* The abandoned house seen next door is the other neighbor who had subdivided this lot 20 years ago. The bank is trying to get rid of that one as well, but it hasn't been lived in in 7 years. I guess there is a risk someone would buy it and I could get unpredictable builders/neighbors.
* The power lines in the picture are pretty close to the road and run parallel to it so they're at the bottom flat part of the site and not in the elevated area where the building sites would be. They're utility and electricity, though the electricity one is the furthest (but still within property line).
* The drawing shows that driveway goes a bit into the uphill of the land and across somewhat, making an upside down "T" from the road, though not much and just high enough to reach the lower suggested building site.

[Don_P]

Nothing says you can't live on a slab in a daylighted, dug in, single story home. The amount of fill outside the wall determines window height on that side but nothing says this needs to be a basement and not the only living level. Skylights or a clerestory roof would let more light enter and with one level would illuminate the main living area. Being cut in moderates temperature. Drainage is easy around this as well. All things being equal, don't put the house on the flattest part, save that for the curtilage and improve it with the dug out fill.

[Pallas]

I did not like the idea of a slab either but came up with a cheaper method/design.

It is the old carriage house design. The slab is always going to be cheaper unless you are in granite. We took the best of both worlds. The slab is the garage and no plumbing in the slab. The 2nd floor is living and everything is accessible from underneath. You get a very nice conditioned space in the garage (not in New York though) for free and heating upstairs is fairly easy. The cooling in summer was solved in 2007 when mini-split heat pumps came out.

Just a thought. Link to my pix.
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipOgnmWeNVSyRaxa_K8_EBtE6L5rOuvpNgiU1ATXyTlrJbmVEfZp00mNowopQbi0Hw?key=Y0dDeTlVbmV5ZmhJV3B6Z3ZKNjZ6ZmU5WnhCUkV3

That's a really great piece of land you have, Dave. The hill definitely comes with a view and it looks like you're making the most out of using gravity for the water tanks. Was that the reason for not building at the lower slope? What I'm looking at isn't as steep, I think, and definitely doesn't have those views - did you have a lot of trouble getting excavators out there?

[Pallas]

Nothing says you can't live on a slab in a daylighted, dug in, single story home. The amount of fill outside the wall determines window height on that side but nothing says this needs to be a basement and not the only living level. Skylights or a clerestory roof would let more light enter and with one level would illuminate the main living area. Being cut in moderates temperature. Drainage is easy around this as well. All things being equal, don't put the house on the flattest part, save that for the curtilage and improve it with the dug out fill.

Thanks very much Don. I think you're right on keeping the house slightly higher but not on the flattest part. According to the soil survey, that flatter part has good agricultural land, so it looks good for a garden/orchard... I wanted a large attached greenhouse, though... how to marry those two concepts... The good thing is that I'll be starting at Yestermorrow this week for the next 12 days, so I'm hoping to get a nice crash course in all the ways I've gotten this wrong so far

[SouthernTier]

I couldn't see the second picture before, showing power lines running through the property already. That may save some money not having to pull electric from the road. Also would have to consider the location of the lines for home building site though.

I really don't know a ton about sitework.. it's not cheap, and a substantial portion of the budget no matter the lay of the land. The most cost effective way to build a house on a slope is to set the house into the slope, rather than trying to level out the slope. That was why I mentioned a walkout basement. A user here, SouthernTier, is currently building a house that is set into a slope similar to yours. That is much more what I had in mind.

Yup, that's me, at the other end of the state.  Here is my foundation on a fairly significant slope:

 

More pics at the link in my sig.

The foundation wasn't cheap (no, won't fess up here to what it was), but I believe that was due more to:

• I put in a center wall with its own footer.  I needed that because of the fairly open cabin design with a significant load going straight down the center of the building.  I wanted to make absolutely sure that that load was handled adequately
• Since I put the wall there, I made the back a crawl space because going with taller unbalanced fill brought me into larger blocks and more reinforcing.  Also, since the ground just keeps going up behind me (more steeply, too) I was concerned about water infiltration (even though it is pretty dry because I built this on a higher ground between two natural swales on the either side.
• I was going to do the blocks myself, but was running out of time last fall, so when I decided I had to hire it out, I probably didn't get the best price.

The guy who did the footer said it would have been more cost effective to not split the level of the basement, due to the stepped footer - the increased block cost would be less than the increased footer cost.  But I guess I'll never know.

But I wouldn't have done it any other way.  Every worker or supplier who comes to the site says "wow, this is going to be a nice place" (and that's due to the location, not my workmanship ).  I actually had to place it higher up because I have a creek going through the property closer to the road.  In order to have the setback from the creek for the septic, that meant higher up the hill.

The second picture makes it look like the driveway already goes up the slope? The satellite drawing shows it leading to that field? It's not an easement for someone else right? Also noticed the abandoned house thing, I wonder what that's about.

With snow removal, wasn't trying to sound like a naysayer, it's just important to be realistic with how much work it is. Getting 6-7 feet of snow every winter, it would get old putting the plow off and on all the time before a long commute.

The problem with doing the snow removal yourself is that you have to do it as soon as it snows.  Easy if this is your full time residence.  But for a recreational cabin, the snow may get too hard to plow if you wait a few days (and you have a freeze/thaw cycle, for example).  I will probably have to hire someone.  Neighbors have been mentioned and I have really great ones at my location.  One of them does snow removal for one of the others, and I will probably be paying him to do mine, too.

Gary is also totally right. Read the handbook to educate yourself. It will also even explain how to do a perc test, so you could fiddle with that before paying an engineer to see if it's worth paying the engineer. But you do need to be sure that you won't be spending 20-30k on a sand mound. The county I live in is likely even less heavily regulated than yours, but the engineer told us a couple horror stories about raised beds needing to go through a special permitting process that could take over a year.

In my area, unless you get lucky and sit on an outwash plain or sand lens (like Jboss on this forum, not far from me), nothing percs.  It's always a sand filter.  The county health dept. didn't even bother doing a perc test - they said no way it would pass, and knowing a thing or two about soils from my day job, they are right.  That said, the going rate for a sand filter in these parts is $8K.  Multiple quotes came in identical.  Yes, that's a good chunk of change, but less than GaryT mentioned, and definitely no horror stories.  If you squint, you can see the vent pipe from either the D-box or the filter itself (not sure) just above the blocks at the corner of the walk-out door.  There was a little terrace there so it was easy to install even though my lot is sloped.  Here, the county has a standard design, so no engineer is needed for the septic, so long as you use the county's design.  That's probably why the cost is so standard as well.

And as for power lines, I am waiting for sticker shock on that (got about 350 feet from the pole near the road), but can't get moving with National Grid since the inspector still hasn't assigned me a street address yet.  That reminds me, I will give him a call right now!  I will do a combination of one pole to get across the driveway, then buried.  My excavator guy, who I really like, does this so I may just sub that out to him.  I am so impressed with how much Nathan does all himself.  Everything seems to take so much time, although I am making sure everything is right so I am not rushing at all.

[Dave Sparks]

That's a really great piece of land you have, Dave. The hill definitely comes with a view and it looks like you're making the most out of using gravity for the water tanks. Was that the reason for not building at the lower slope? What I'm looking at isn't as steep, I think, and definitely doesn't have those views - did you have a lot of trouble getting excavators out there?

Offgrid the slope of a hill or mountain is your friend! We appreciate it. There was not a problem getting equipment in. Why do you think that would be a problem please?
The loop around the house is a nice thing also as a fire engine can get to it all.

[Pallas]

Hello all, I’m back after having attended the Yestermorrow home design/build course in Vermont. I truly cannot recommend this experience enough to anyone on the fence about making the time/money investment. The experience was worth so much more than what I paid for as we had 3 professional architects as our instructors who gave us quality, instant feedback every day. I came back with architectural floor plans and a scale model of my house and the property site. I’m happy to chat with anyone about any questions on the school.

So, back to the land I’m considering. I’ve since walked it again with a civil engineer who specializes in septic, and gave me some good insights and much to think about. I also examined it much more closely on my own, and my findings are making me doubt if this could be a good piece of land. However, I would really appreciate a sanity check from you all, since I know that any piece of land will have its challenges. I’m having trouble understanding if these are issues that can be worked with. I wouldn’t want to let good land with potential go. I apologize for the longer post in advance.



The main issue, boiled down to a couple of sentences is this: although it’s an almost 6-acre lot, its shape and the actual buildable area make it feel much smaller. I’m also having trouble estimating the amount of work and investment I’ll need in order to make the low, wet area usable. There are water and drainage issues that I’m afraid to underestimate as part of building on a downward sloping lot.

The detailed issues are these:

Triangle shaped lot with buildable soil concentrated on narrower higher sloping part:

• Wide base with lots of road frontage and narrow top. However, the land slopes down from the road and then up again. This creates a wide low area which is mostly soft/wet/muddy (though not a designated wetland). The owner built a driveway crossing it, and had received a permit from the county environmental dept.
• As it slopes higher (steep to moderate), the property lines also narrow, which gives the potential house site feel more like a large backyard (this top of the triangle is just under 2 acres).
• There is a dry creek bed running down the eastern side. The engineer said that it doesn’t look like any water has come down through there for a long time, but I may need to dig a swale to divert any potential water running down the hill in the path of the house.

Neighbor proximity:

• There’s no divider between the east-side neighbor, and just a few deciduous trees partially blocking the view of a very large very glaringly white house. I can imagine this being a clear ugly view in fall/winter.
  
• A low stone wall divides the property on the west side. Although there’s a large meadow on the other side between that wall and the west-neighbor’s house, the stone wall does add to the feeling of narrowness.

Question: Would planting a line of evergreens on the east solve for some of this? I don’t know how much they’d do for noise protection, and I’m also not keen on the harsh unnatural look of evergreen tree walls

Low wet area in wide base of plot:

• The area is expansive and feels very large, with no trees and just low plants/bushes throughout. It’s soft, muddy soil with a very high hydric score (95%) which has also been designated as high quality agricultural land. It’s divided in the middle by a driveway.
• It has a small thin, mostly undefined stream running through it on either side of the driveway. There are smaller almost spider web-like streams coming in and connecting throughout the land to this main stream.
• These just seem to run on top of the muddy surface with no real definition, making the soil soft and wet in the area all around the stream. On the west neighbor’s highly manicured side, he seems to have excavated the stream and defined it with rocks, etc.
• I’d like to make use of this unbuildable wide area for a large garden and some outbuildings like a shed, chicken coop, fire pit area, etc.
  

Questions:
-   Would filling in this (large) area address the issue, and could I define/excavate the main stream without having to also take care of the other fingerlings of water that run through the land (just dump fill on top of these)?
-   If I want to garden on this area, does that mean I have to be very selective of the fill, essentially making this a very expensive, very long process? I’m guessing “clean fill” traditionally used for pits, etc. doesn’t necessarily mean growing quality?

Limited septic areas:

• The wide, wet area is out of the question for septic, meaning I have to carve out some space in the already narrower high area.
• Given the general slope, most of the area is too steep for a leach field (~15%), and the engineer recommended a flat plateau above where the house site would be. This isn’t ideal for me, since I wouldn’t want to pump up from septic to leach field. Additionally, it’s one of the nicer areas up there and I wouldn’t want to use it for a leach field.
• I asked him if we could just grade down one of the sloped areas a bit (give it a haircut on top without disturbing the underground soil) and not have to use the valuable flat plateau. He said it depends, and the soil would have to be of very good quality. I haven’t been able to get the county on the phone on this.
• Has anyone done this or been able to install a standard, below-ground septic on sloped land?

I’m a bit intimidated by the various water/drainage issues that could arise from this land.

[Don_P]

I'm glad you had a good time 

As a stewardship consideration, we humans have been channeling and filling these water recharge areas for generations. This is part of why flash flooding gets worse and wells dry up, one by one we each move the water off our land as quickly as possible instead of letting it recharge our local water table. If its saturated, blue, smelly anaerobic soil, that is not ag land unless you channel and/or fill. We have about 5 acres of that type of land.

The neighbor is already bothering you, that probably won't get better, site 1 looks to give you more privacy. Our leachfield is in the front yard with 25-30% slope but your health dept is all that matters there. I don't care for pumps.

[Pallas]

Thanks very much Don. I appreciate your quick and thoughtful reply.

This is the same site I wrote about earlier in the thread - I've just now divided it between the buildable, higher and narrower part and the lower, wider and wetter part. Being a good steward is definitely high on my list, so I wouldn't want to do anything that has environmental repercussions down the the line. I'm just not sure if there is a responsible way to get some use out of the land, either by draining/directing the water towards the main creek or filling it in and gardening, or both.

There are just so few parcels for sale, and I know every piece will require some work, so I don't know if this piece can still be worked with.

Thanks again!

[jsahara24]

whoops..double post

[jsahara24]

I'm not sure why you believe that low wet area isn't a series of wetlands/watercourses, considering your description and that the owner had to obtain a permit to install a driveway across it makes me believe it is in fact a wetland/watercourse.  So its very likely that you would not legally be able to fill in that area. 

Do you know if there is a floodplain associated with the stream?  Filling in a floodplain typically requires a zoning variance at a minimum.  In PA if there is no delineated floodplain it is assumed to be 50' from either side of the stream bank. 

Also check out the Township setbacks, as the lot narrows toward the back it will eat into your "buildable area". 

Good luck...

[akwoodchuck]

My advice is: if you're not head over heels in love with a piece of land, then pass...

[Pallas]

Thanks very much all.

To clarify, the owner got a review from the environmental office which confirmed no wetlands or watercourse so he could go ahead with driveway, which included adding fill. There's no flood plain associated with the stream either. It really is just an area where two opposite slopes meet to create quite a wet micro valley.

Also, I am very very much in love with the land, but I don't know enough about what's possible as far as land modification and drainage/fill of low areas. I'd like to get an idea of what was possible.

[NathanS]

It seems like a good spot for a pond. Should be able to use some of the fill from digging out to raise certain areas, also would potentially even be advantageous to ground water levels.

Sitework is tough.

Site 1 looking out on a nice big pond... using some of that super rich soil to build up an area for gardens... it is also the most centrally located on the property. With those dry creek beds I also wonder if there are springs up the hill- gravity fed spring is the ultimate.

I would plant white pines on the property line to block that house.

Looking for land is stressful... I can tell from your post following yestermorrow it was definitely helpful.

That abandoned house could show up on a tax auction in the next few years.. I'd keep an eye out and maybe have some money set aside for that.

Just a couple thoughts.

[jsahara24]

Well if there are no wetlands that certainly opens up your options.  Your options are really limited by your budget and motivation.  Nathan's pond idea is a good one. 

I also planted white pines along my property lines, I got them at the local conservation district tree sale for really cheap.  They were small but took well and are in their third year and growing very well. 

I was thinking the same about the neighboring property, those tax sales can offer great deals but you need to have cash.  Another option is to reach out to teh owner directly, you can look up the mailing address of the property owner on the county website.  Bad neighbors can really put a damper on your enjoyment of your property.   

Have any pictures of the property? 

[Portico]

Hey Pallas,

Thought I'd chime in as I have a similar situation to what you're looking at- triangle lot on similar slope with abandoned house next door, in the Hudson Valley/Catskills.

A few pieces of advice for what it's worth-

1- Try to grab a Pennysaver or the smallest, most local paper you can find for the excavation and sitework company ads. Most of them here don't have websites and are hard to find otherwise.

2- Plan on doing some fill at the base of the driveway for a turnout so guests/delivery drivers don't get stuck or have a place to park that's not the top during the winter. If using oil heat, leave enough room for 2 tanks because you might not find a company willing to deliver in the dead of winter. (I know people in this situation.)

3- Realistically a Ranger will not likely be up to the task of plowing... consider a base model Tacoma as alternative.

4- Get propery records of the place next door and try to find the status; there are still a lot of 2008 foreclosures stuck in bureaucracy. Look up when the next county tax auction is- usually annual. Planting evergreens may not be that easy based on soil, wetness and slope

5- For clearing, find the local sawmill and see if they buy standing timber; if so you may be able to cash flow clearing the land. If not they'll give you their recommendations on log size for processing it if you want to get it milled

Hope this helps!