DOGTROT DESIGN FOR YOUR COMMENTS

Started by Mark_Chenail, October 25, 2006, 12:46:35 PM

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Amanda_931

The one down the hill when I moved here (that our local arsonist--or somebody--got a couple of years ago) was a two-story log (covered with clapboards) dogtrot, with what was probably a kitchen annex in the back of one side.  Two big chimneys at the far ends, fireplaces showing in both, top and bottom.  Outside stairs, closed room over the downstairs dogtrot.

And until quite recently it was pretty normal to have snow--significant snow--6 or 7 days a year, and also a week's worth of days when it didn't get up to freezing.  The -15's we had in Nashville in the early 80's were not all that common, but I'm sure they happened back in the 19th century.

Ailsa C. Ek

QuoteThe one down the hill when I moved here (that our local arsonist--or somebody--got a couple of years ago) was a two-story log (covered with clapboards) dogtrot, with what was probably a kitchen annex in the back of one side.  Two big chimneys at the far ends, fireplaces showing in both, top and bottom.  Outside stairs, closed room over the downstairs dogtrot.

Hmm.  Chimneys at either end.  Shifting the stove and the sink are pretty easy in the kitchen, but I'm giving myself a bit of a headache trying to figure out how to put a fireplace or woodstove in the bedroom end and still preserve any privacy between parents and kids.

QuoteAnd until quite recently it was pretty normal to have snow--significant snow--6 or 7 days a year, and also a week's worth of days when it didn't get up to freezing.  The -15's we had in Nashville in the early 80's were not all that common, but I'm sure they happened back in the 19th century.

I think that's the weather our area is working its way toward, so I think dogtrots could be very practical here.  I'm pondering the feasibility of a strawbale dogtrot house with adobe inner walls (except for the wall between the kitchen and bathroom, which would be the usual 2 * 6 and drywall for ease of running plumbing).


Mark_Chenail

Alisa:  Thanks for your kind words.

As regards heat in the old days, Amanda is correct about the end chimneys.  The historic dogtrot form was really just a two room house with the open dogtrot in the middle so end chimneys were the simplest solution to heat and cooking.  In my design, John and I werent really specific about heating.  As these are fairly small structures, you could probably get away with a good woodstove in the dogtrot.  The dogtrot is designed to be enclosed in cold weather and the stove would do the trick.  You could also go with simple baseboard heaters or go whole hog and install a hot air furnace with ducting in the crawl space and CA.  Or you could even do in the floor hydronic heat.  It all depends on how low-tech,hightech you want to be.

I had to laugh a bit about your concern with placing fireplaces in a modern house.  Many of the houses I have designed on paper follow historic forms and although fireplaces are not very practical heat sources, I often include them.  My own house in Missouri has 6 fireplaces and a wood stove in the kitchen.  If you really wanted to go with fireplaces to heat the main spaces, it wouldnt be that hard to manipulate the plan to accomodate them.  Give me a day or two and I will see if I can come up with a quick variant that includes fireplaces as a heat source...purely as an historico-academic exercise. :)
mark chenail

Ailsa C. Ek

Just wanted to note that I do know that fire-places are suboptimal as heating sources (I'm rather fond of fireplace inserts, though).  It's just trying to figure out how to place a fireplace or woodstove on the far left of the house while still splitting the room in two with enough space for beds and clothing that was giving me trouble.  A masonry heater would take care of that nicely, but masonry heaters are expensive, IIRC.

Amanda_931

Rocket Mass Heater--what Glenn is doing.  Even if you don't have nearly everything you need to put it in, it is likely to be pretty economical.  Not exactly good for a second floor, though.

Ken Kern really liked (and quite a few people still do) Rumford fireplaces.  The very shallow jobs that do a great job of radiating heat into the room.  You probably need to buy the throat piece.

http://www.rumford.com/components.html

Fireplaces in end walls aren't particularly efficient--sooner or later that heat is going to end up going through the outside masonry.

But a single fireplace between two rooms might work.  Or even a pair, side by side.  But that sounds like it might take real money.

Also rumor hath it that the reason houses in South Louisiana had 2nd story fireplaces was so a small fire in them would move hot air out of the whole building in the summer.


glenn kangiser

New Idria mine was ventilated in that manner - fire under a stack on the hill drew air out of the mine.
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.

Mark_Chenail

#31
Well the problem with fireplaces in bedrooms is that they really screw up the furniture placement unless its a big room.   The first bedroom we built with a fireplace on our place in Missouri was about 12 x 14  with the fireplace on oneof the 14'walls.  the built in metal unit protruded into the space a bit over two feet.  When you put a bed facing the fireplace so you could watch the fire and get the heat it only left about 3 feet of clearance from the end of the standard 7 foot bed.First time we lit a fire, we couldn't see the fire , the sight line was wrong and the end of the bed started to get real hot and nearly scorched before we realized what was what. :o   We ended up using a french style bed(head and foot boards are equal height) with its long side parallel to the fire and against the opposite  wall.  This gave us about 5.6 feet of clearance which solved the problem. Later rooms we made sure there was more clearance or we placed the mantel in a corner so that the heat hit the bed at a more oblique angle.

Putting fireplaces in the Dogtrot plans we posted really makes bed placement hard and screws up the closets.   Im  working on an enlarged plan that puts the fireplaces between the rooms and still leaves closet space, but it adds a good deal to the square footage, thought its still under 1000 sq ft.   Not lavish but not as small and economical a plan.   I will try to post this plan today, if the boss takes off early and I can sneak in some time on the scanner. ;)
mark chenail

Mark_Chenail

#32
Heres the promised plans.  The first takes the basic 20x36 plan and inserts fireplaces in the rooms.  Frankly I dont like it much.  Its an awkward looking plan. I have serious doubts about furniture placement and the fire issue(see the above post) and it loses all the closets.  But here it is, warts and all for what it is worth.








Heres a much better plan.  It expands the building to 26x38 but it is still under  1000 sq ft so its hardly a macmansion.  It has fireplaces in the two bedrooms and the kitchen and it would permit a woodstove in the dogtrot in cold weather.  Their are plenty of closets and no problems with furniture placement.  All and all a better solution as long as you arent put off by the increased size and expense.









Ailsa, I hope these give you some good ideas. The rest of you,  feel free to criticize or praise or make suggestions.


NB:  Sighhhhhhhhhhhhh. One of these days I need to learn how to size these things for the screen.  Mea culpa.   At least you can see them without your spectacles.
mark chenail

desdawg

I like having fireplaces at an angle aesthetically, and have done a couple including my current one in that fashion.  But it does gobble up the square footage. If you look at pictures of old homestead houses the chimneys were usually outside of the structure and I am sure that was part of the reason. Also these were primarily all masonry construction and required a more substantial footing as well. And being outside of the perimeter walls they didn't require a roof penetration. With prefab metal fireboxes and lightweight man made finish materials (Z-brick, imitation stone, etc.) the footing isn't so much of a concern which opens up new possibilities. Even woodburning stoves, which are more efficient in terms of heating, require quite a bit of space to make all of the appropriate clearances from combustables. Another option that hasn't been explored here yet is the outdoor wood burning furnace. These are basically a boiler and require pumping water so are not a good off grid option. But if you have grid power designing one of these into the plan would save your interior space and allow your building to remain smaller. Just some thoughts.
I have done so much with so little for so long that today I can do almost anything with absolutely nothing.


Bellla

#34
Cool thread!  I like the ideas and would consider the plan for my property as it gets very hot in the summer.  However, it also gets very cold in the winter with the potential for a lot of snow.  In the first photograph you posted I noticed a fireplace in the dogtrot area and figured that would be a good addition for a climate like mine.  Seal off the ends with doors and windows in the winter, stoke the fire and enjoy yourself.  In the summer, open everything up for ventilation.  I really like this idea.  I had already considered some kind of small buildings with outside areas for summer use like an outdoor kitchen.  Now I'll be pondering this for a while.

Bellla

Edited to add: Well color me surprised.  I didn't know there was a second page to this thread with fireplace ideas on it.   Now I'll have even more pondering to do!   :)

Ailsa C. Ek

Mark:

Thanks!  I really like the 26 * 38 one.  I was noodling about with a design that looked a little like that, although not as well put together.  I have a couple of questions, though:

1.  Why a hip roof?  Aren't those more expensive?

2.  How do you put a woodstove in the dogtrot?  The chimney isn't anywhere near it on either side.

3.  Are you assuming typical frame contruction?  

4.  Is this on a slab?

Mark_Chenail

Ailsa:  Glad you liked the design.

1) No real reason for the hip roof. An aesthetic decision on my part.  It could just as well be a gable roof with the gable on the short end.  Yes the hip roof is probably more expensive to frame and shingle.

2)  You could put the wood stove in the dogtrot in cold weather.  Easiest way would be to run a metal chimney straight up through the ceiling and roof.  Triple wall chimney for safety.  I just didnt show it in the plans.  The fireplaces I show are metal zero clearance units with metal chimneys.  The exterior chimneys are just fake shells to hide the metal chimney.  Again just aesthetics.  Of course you could build real masonry fireplaces and chimneys at considerably more cost.

3)Yes plain old frame construction, 2x4 or 2x6 if you want more insulation space.

4) You could build it on a slab and keep it low to the ground, but you could just as easily build it on piers or a low crawlspace.  You could even put it on a full basement if you wanted to with a staircase in the dogtrot  or an exterior bulkhead.  The plans are meant to be fairly generic but easy to alter in regards to foundation, roofing and specific details.
mark chenail

Ailsa C. Ek

QuoteAilsa:  Glad you liked the design.

Love it.  Sorry to take aso long to respond.

Quote1) No real reason for the hip roof. An aesthetic decision on my part.  It could just as well be a gable roof with the gable on the short end.  Yes the hip roof is probably more expensive to frame and shingle.

*nod*  OK, gable roof would be my preference, with 2' kneewalls, so I could get some loft space up above.


Quote2)  You could put the wood stove in the dogtrot in cold weather.  Easiest way would be to run a metal chimney straight up through the ceiling and roof.  Triple wall chimney for safety.  I just didnt show it in the plans.  The fireplaces I show are metal zero clearance units with metal chimneys.  The exterior chimneys are just fake shells to hide the metal chimney.  Again just aesthetics.  Of course you could build real masonry fireplaces and chimneys at considerably more cost.

One plus about the masonry, though - thermal mass to help heat the place in winter.  Maybe runnign a chimney up between he kitchen and the dogtrot, so one the kitchen side would be a cookstove and the dogtrot could have a woodstove for heating the rest of the place?  (The fact that the bedrooms would probably get the least heat isn't a problem - I really prefer a cold bedroom.)

Is it possible to build a chimney out of cement blocks and just face it with something prettier?  I'd love to figure out a way to make my own masonry stove, but I'm afraid that'd be $$$.

Quote4) You could build it on a slab and keep it low to the ground, but you could just as easily build it on piers or a low crawlspace.  You could even put it on a full basement if you wanted to with a staircase in the dogtrot  or an exterior bulkhead.  The plans are meant to be fairly generic but easy to alter in regards to foundation, roofing and specific details.

Slabs aren't real popular here in New England.  A full basement would be my preference.  Going down below the frost line takes you close enough to basement deep anyway.

Mark_Chenail

Alisa:  If you look at the smaller version, the 20x 36, there is a fireplace in the dogtrot and a corner fireplace  in the kitchen.  You could eliminate the fireplace in the kitchen and hook up your cookstove with no problem.  You could easily make this change to the 26x38 as well.  You would have to shift the pantry closet to the space where the fireplace is in the kitchen and push the entry arch toward the front of the house but its all minor changes.  If you built the fireplace with a raised hearth at say waist height you could also use it for cooking and grilling as well.

Nowadays most masonry chimneys are built of concrete block and faced with brick, tile, stone etc. Ive also been fascinated by masonry heaters that include a cooking area as well.  I once saw an article about a homemade masonry heater that was in the partially exposed basement of the house but extended up into the living room.  The top of it was at counter height and had a metal plate in the top for slow cooking. There were seating benches as well and it was a dandy place for drying boots and mittens.  It might have been in an old MEN  or one of the Shelter Books.  It was definitely homemade.
Maybe someone will remember the source and post it.  Ive got a copy somewhere but more than likely its not here but at the house in Missouri.  Thats where I usually find anything I need here. ;)
mark chenail


glenn kangiser

Also the foundation under the fireplace would be brought up from the basement floor - maybe you could work another chimney into it for a basement heater.
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.

Boatz

I like to see some good ideas for design for a couple of "not partnered" senior citizens where there are living quarters (master suite with bedroom and sitting area) on either side of a communal living area that is not dull or boring... seems like the dogtrot would be perfect for that sort of thing....

Freeholdfarm

I've always liked the dogtrot design.  I think it would be good for me and my daughter, with the two bedrooms on opposite sides of the dogtrot (on the north side of the house, as I prefer cool bedrooms).  I wouldn't want them side-by-side, because as soon as she hears me moving around in the morning she's up, and that gives me no privacy for a few quiet moments (she's autistic, and clingy).  That would put the kitchen on one side and the bathroom on the other, but since my future house plans don't include running water, just drains, that wouldn't be a big problem.  I would have a cook stove in the kitchen, and a masonry stove, or rocket stove, in the dogtrot.   I love the idea of a garden room, and would also like to have a 'water feature' (a pool, little waterfall, a few goldfish or whatever) for my daughter to play in.  

I think your designs are a tad short on storage space, though, Mark.  One shortcoming of small houses is that there isn't enough room to put things away, so you end up with a lot of clutter.  Since I raise most of our food, I need a large pantry, and a root cellar (preferably not underneath the house, though).    I would really like to have a room for the laundry tubs (no washer and dryer in my non-electric house), a work table, some storage space, the treadle sewing machine, and the ironing board.  It could also be the pantry, I suppose.  But I really do like your concepts, and I like the looks of the house with the pergola or trellis at the front door!

Kathleen

Mark_Chenail

#42
FreeHoldFarm:    Im glad you like the designs.  I see your point about storage.
The plans are really meant to be simple space plans, easily manipulated.  There is more storage than you might suppose.  The beds are built in and are meant to have storage drawers under them.  Because I am in a wheelchair, I tend not to show upper cabinets in the kitchen as they are useless to me as are closets in the usual sense.  But they are easily added to the plans.  
It sounds as if you plan to do some real off grid living.  By any chance do you live in Great Britain?  Freehold is not an american term.  Give me a day or two and let me see if I can come up with a variant on the basic dogtrot plan that might suit your needs.

LATER ON MONDAY:   Okay heres a variant that might suit your needs.  Lots of closets and built ins.  A large kitchen with an attached pantry and a good sized laundry/work room for the wash tubs and sewing machine.  As you dont plan to have electricity, I assume you will be hanging out the wash so I gave you a door to the outside.   Theres a big terrace in the back that could be glazed as a conservatory as a safe place for your daughter to play.  The bedrooms are near one another but separated by the bathroom and a short hallway.  I show an open fire in the dogtrot but it could just as well be a stove.
How are you planning to provide hot water if you dont have electricity?  Will you use bottled gas or heat water on the stove.  I show a standard kitchen range, but you could easily reverse the position of the range and dresser and put a chimney in a corner of the laundry to service the cookstove and a laundry boiler.  Give me the word and I will give you the full range of Jane Austen amenities.  ;)  Feel free to praise, criticize and make suggestions.





mark chenail

John Raabe

Looking good Mark. You've gotten pretty good with 3DHA!  :D
None of us are as smart as all of us.

John_C

These various dogtrot designs remind me of some of the features of the house I built in the FL Keys.   It's shape was dictated by the setback requirements and lot size.  I've fiddled with it some now that my daughter is in college and I no longer have any setback restrictions.
The original was right at 1000 sq. ft.   Here is the current 880 sq. ft.  floor plan.  
2BR,  2BA + laundry room.  I've doodled lots of concept houses but most aren't in a postable format. Your comments & opinions are welcome.





Ailsa C. Ek

Darn, Mark, the more you modify that design, the more I love it!  The kitchen/pantry/laundry trifecta is great, and I like the MBR giving onto the patio too.  If you wanted to design the wood cookstove + hot water reservoir version, I'd be interested in seeing it.

Mark_Chenail

Ailsa:  The Jane Austen version hardly needs drawing.  Take the 6 feet of cabinets on the wall between the laundry and pantry doors and put it where the range is now.  You might lose some of the length but not much.  Put the wood cookstove in its place.  You would need to lay a hearth and have a heat shiield behind it.  Build the chimney in the adjacent corner of the laundry.  I was joking about the old fashioned wash boiler but it could be built into that same corner.  Its just a big copper kettle built into a sort of brick barbecue.  The copper is filled with water and a fire is built under it to heat the water and you boil the dirty clothes or draw the heated water off with a tap into wash tubs.   Pretty hgh tech operation in the 18th and early 19th century. I once wrote a paper in college on the development of kitchen offices in the 18th and 19th century.  I am absolutely fascinated by the arrangement of below stairs' particularly in large country houses.

John:  I can churn out the ideas pretty quick now with 3dha, especially plans and variations.  Im still working on my rendering skills, but its great for getting an idea down in visual form and lots more accurate than pen and paper.  Ive translated  piles of old thumbnail sketches into readable plans and find its the best way to work out a plan.  Sure am glad you introduced me to 3dha.
mark chenail

Ailsa C. Ek

QuoteAilsa:  The Jane Austen version hardly needs drawing.

Aw, pooh!  I live to make you draw more floorplans!   ;D  Think you could fit a small office in there somewhere?  All it needs is to be big enough for a computer desk and be an actual room with a door that closes.  (There are many things I can live without, but if my husband doesn't have a hidey-hole, Things Will be Bad, and I have an absolute rule against computers in the bedroom.)

Mark_Chenail

AILSA:   Okay just for you.  But anymore change orders and I will have to send a bill. ;)   Actually I rather like this design better myself though it pushes the square footage over 1000.




mark chenail

Freeholdfarm

#49
Mark, that is really a great layout!  I really like the patio/veranda (or whatever you want to call it) in the back of the house, too!  Yes, I'd replace that one bank of cabinets with a wood cook stove, and I like your ideas about the hot water boiler.  I've always just heated water on the wood stove when we had no electricity (in Alaska, not England -- I got the Freeholder handle from a book, Farnham's Freehold, but kept it because I'm a 'homesteader' and it fits), but it would be nice to have a dedicated water heating system.  

My plans, for someday, include a composting toilet (probably a sawdust toilet in the house, and a regular 'Sunny John' type outdoors); a hand pump for the water (which I already have); laundry tubs and a hand-crank wringer -- and clotheslines -- for doing laundry.  Yes, having a door straight out to the clotheslines from the laundry is excellent!  I garden, raise chickens and goats (for both meat and milk, so I'm butchering as well as milking), make cheese and soap, sew on Grandma's old treadle machine -- and spend way too much time on this computer, LOL!  I have two baby goats sitting in a big dog crate behind me right now -- bottle babies who will stay in for a couple more days, at least.  (They are bottle babies because I'm milking their mother.)  But doing all that stuff makes demands on a house that urban dwellers don't have to consider.  

Having lived a pretty good chunk of my life without electricity, I pretty well know what I need to make that kind of life liveable.  

And Mark, I REALLY, REALLY like that design!!  I like having a fireplace, as long as we aren't living in such a cold climate that it's not practical (such as Alaska), because I like to cook over an open fire, and sometimes that's not practical outdoors.  You even made the bathroom big enough so I can get in there to assist my daughter!  Thanks!

Kathleen