Been lurking here for months.
Love it.
Looking forward to buying a small piece of country land all my own.
But I've spent most of my life in the city and I am having a very hard time visualizing how much land I would like to have.
I live in Chicago and am looking for property 3 hours or so from my house so I know that it will never be a large parcel. I don't have the means.
But 1 acre? 3? 5? I can't quite picture how big an acre is, though I know its dimensions.
Is there a rule of thumb for eyeballing acres? "An acre is about 2 highway lightpoles wide" or "X percent of a city block", something like that?
Right now, my working plan is to have enough land that, standing in the middle of it, shouting good morning to my neighbor without moving closer is pointless and proof of either laziness or dislike.
How big is that? :D
Quote from: chrislrob on August 09, 2009, 05:07:50 PM
Been lurking here for months.
Love it.
Looking forward to buying a small piece of country land all my own.
But I've spent most of my life in the city and I am having a very hard time visualizing how much land I would like to have.
I live in Chicago and am looking for property 3 hours or so from my house so I know that it will never be a large parcel. I don't have the means.
But 1 acre? 3? 5? I can't quite picture how big an acre is, though I know its dimensions.
Is there a rule of thumb for eyeballing acres? "An acre is about 2 highway lightpoles wide" or "X percent of a city block", something like that?
Right now, my working plan is to have enough land that, standing in the middle of it, shouting good morning to my neighbor without moving closer is pointless and proof of either laziness or dislike.
How big is that? :D
Just roughly the size of a football field. 43,560 square feet. So any squared demensions totaling that would give it to you.
But you might check the area that you are looking at in regards for the need of a septic system. Some jurisdictions require a minimum size for this. Anything smaller and there has to be an area set aside for a supplemental septic in case the primary fails in addition to the location of the house.
Once upon a time my wife had a girlfriend who had visited from Chicago. We live in the rural mountains of WV. When it gets nighfall it gets dark. She had made the comment that she couldn't sleep at night here because it was so dark and quiet.
QuoteRight now, my working plan is to have enough land that, standing in the middle of it, shouting good morning to my neighbor without moving closer is pointless and proof of either laziness or dislike.
3 acres.
Land feels bigger if it has lots of trees and is hilly.
Quote from: chrislrob on August 09, 2009, 05:07:50 PM
Right now, my working plan is to have enough land that, standing in the middle of it, shouting good morning to my neighbor without moving closer is pointless and proof of either laziness or dislike.
How big is that? :D
I would just assume to stand in the middle and shout and no one hear me. ;D
One working definition of a country parcel is will you go back inside the house to pee when working outside. ;) If the answer is no then you have country property. :D :D :D
As mentioned by ScottA that is not so much an area as an environment issue. A wooded lot of one acre might satisfy or you many need 25 acres of prairie.
According to Wikipedia an acre is 4,840 sq yards or 43,560 sq ft. A standard Manhattan city block is 264' x 900' or 273,600 sq ft. A "horse farm" country parcel of 5 acres is a bit smaller at 217,800 sq ft.
When looking for rural land find out from the zoning office if there is a minimum size parcel that you must have to build on. In my area zoning is now at 10 acre min lot sizes.
3 hrs plus a bit from Chicago, check out Richland County WI
beautiful and now almost affordable with the real estate decline
land gets cheaper per acre bigger than 25 acres
think about getting a well and an older house too
a well costs serious money these days
an old farm house even if it needs lots of work can give you a leg up on water and septic
good luck
A lot of great advice here, thanks!
I see your point about how layout can affect the "feel" of the property.
Hadn't thought much about that.
Roughly the size of a football field helps a lot!
When I lived briefly in the country I found it "way" too quiet, too. All of that silence was ringing in my ears and keeping me up at night!
Thanks for the tip on Richland County, Windpower. I'll check it out. I've been thinking along the same lines as your suggestion--any old house with working water and septic is the best indicator of the property being okay for water and septic.
I've read the nightmare stories. I don't need that. And can't afford it.
I *think* I"m going to focus my attention on Indiana and Michigan, and Illinois to about Davenport, IA since I live on the southern edge of Chicago. It takes me almost an hour to hit the Wisconsin border from my house. And that's through city traffic.
And on the return, I'll have to fight the North Shore folks coming back from THEIR summer homes on the weekends. Done it before and it is PAINFUL.
I'm determined to buy a place that I'll actually go to. I think 3 hours +/- is about my limit.
Aside from having a get away is there anything else you want to accomplish with your land? Also, when you are visualizing an acre, take away the end zones of the football field.
I have found many pieces over 5 acres cheaper than an acre. Many times when someone is selling just one acre they have put a lot of improvements into it that you will be paying for. I.E. survey, septic, well, lawyers, etc...
You really have to kick some dirt around to get a feel for it. I was looking for 10 acres. After visiting a few lots in the mountains and realizing how long it took me to hike to the corners, I realized I could do with less.
If you truly want to get a perspective of size from a city, use Google maps or tax records. You can find out how long the block you live on is.
Don't forget, usually neighbors don't build a house right on the property line. They can still be far away.
In addition to considering rural property with old farmhouse, also look for rural property with a mobile home, should also have a well or rural water and septic already in place, maybe some outbuildings, and a mobile home depreciates very quickly.
It's true- the lay of the land plays an important role as to how big it 'feels'. My mother has 2.8 acres, but between the trees, the way the road curves, and the way her neighbor's houses are situated, you can't see another house when the leaves are on the trees. By contrast, I've seen new houses built on 5 acres of lawn, and they have no privacy whatsoever. We bought 7 acres of woods, and I tried to explain it to my wife like this: The block we live on now has about a dozen houses, and a one acre pond in the middle. All of that is 3-1/2 acres, or half what our rural property is! I would check the local laws to see what you can and can't do on X number of acres, and compare that to what you might want to do there some day.
These are great comments.
I especially like the idea that a rundown property will probably have utilities but the building itself isn't worth much. And, on the flip side, the idea that I shouldn't be discouraged by the price of some of the .5 acre, acre properties I am seeing since people might have spent a lot of money on the improvements and are now passing the cost on to you.
Mike asked if I wanted anything other than a getaway. Well...I don't *think* so. I mean, I want a small place to go to on the weekend with my wife and small son. I pretend I might do some writing there.
I definitely want water *on* the land. A pond. A creek. A stream. I want my own water (And yes, I've read some of the cautionary tales here re maintenance and runoff, though I would like to hear more). Be nice if there were some fish in it!
But much of what I'm looking for is the challenge of adapting to being alone someplace not in walking distance of a McDonald's. In the last few years I've found myself feeling uneasy about how disconnected I am from nature. I'm not comfortable in the woods. I don't feel confident there. Rustling leaves creep me out. Opossums terrify me. I find it hard to even imagine how my ancestors managed to live their whole lives without electric lights or 5 pound sacks of flour.
I'me slightly repulsed by the idea that my burgers once had a face and that my Filet-O-Fish once had guts. So I've resolved to catch and clean my own fishsticks a few times. I've resolved to stumble through the woods and hunt down my own steak rather than wait for another man to do it for me. I tell you, it's enough to give the liberal in me the vapors!
I haven't built much in my life. I haven't created much that can be here when I'm gone. I've never done that kind of work.
And while I'm not at all handy and I don't have the craftman's zeal for painstaking detail and fine materials, I do have a desire to...do. And I see building a cabin, however imperfectly, as a chance to make something that will endure.
Course I say all of this knowing that if I find a lean-to near a trout stream for the right price I'll probably never swing a hammer on the whole place! d*
If you want a taste of it before you jump in you can come stay with us for a week and decide if Green Acres was fact or fiction!!! ;) It's 30 miles to McDs but today we say about 15 nice turkeys in a field and then turning onto the paved road saw a nice young buck in the velvet, About an 8 point when he finishes. We don't have to worry about enough dry wood for this winter because the ice storm last winter put more wood on the ground than we can burn before it rots. Record rain fall means we didn't have to water the garden this year,..... IT DROWNED!!!!!!! >:( 14" above ave. this year but we are still holding out hope for the Muscedines,.............No veggies but we should have meat and wine! Oh and of the 10 we own here we try to only claim the 1 we actualy use on our taxes ;)
ok...as some have said...
being an ex-city boy myself things are a bit different out in the sticks...the normal noise you are used to in the city is gone...so...on my 40 acres in the high desert of AZ. when the wind is right i can kinda hear my neighbors talking outside...and they are over a half mile away...cars late at night that are 5 miles away can be heard like they are right near...it's actually spooky for a while till you get used to it...now that's like some have said with no real tree...just open plain mostly...the sun comes up right out of the ground...kinda like being out on the water...when the moon is full on a clear night ya can actually see at night...when it's not full it can be so dark that you can't see anything...no ambient light at all really...but the stars...haven't seen so many since i was a kid way back on long island...you can actually see the "cloud" of the galaxy of stars...anyway 40 acres is about a 1/4 mile square...so out there on that property even at 16 of those or a square mile of property the neighbor could still probably hear you shout...well...my first post...hi everyone...this forum is great from what i've seen so far...seems to be a melting pot for just plain old regular people just helping out each other...kinda refreshing change from the real world...
w* Dandlite I guess there is very few places that one can escape. Some places better than others in that respect.
Quote from: chrislrob on August 10, 2009, 09:31:00 PM
I especially like the idea that a rundown property will probably have utilities but the building itself isn't worth much. And, on the flip side, the idea that I shouldn't be discouraged by the price of some of the .5 acre, acre properties I am seeing since people might have spent a lot of money on the improvements and are now passing the cost on to you.
I definitely want water *on* the land. A pond. A creek. A stream. I want my own water (And yes, I've read some of the cautionary tales here re maintenance and runoff, though I would like to hear more). Be nice if there were some fish in it!
I've resolved to stumble through the woods and hunt down my own steak rather than wait for another man to do it for me. I tell you, it's enough to give the liberal in me the vapors!
Course I say all of this knowing that if I find a lean-to near a trout stream for the right price I'll probably never swing a hammer on the whole place! d*
Great idea to start with something with improvements/utilities on site already. They add up quickly, and have far more onerous permit requirements than they used to.
If you want some kind of water feature (creek, pond, etc) on site, be sure the site is large enough to allow for setbacks from that water feature to property improvements you might want in the future. An older house may have a deck you can fish from, but in my county, to do something like that now, you'd better be able to cast about 165', because that's how far away you would need to be in most cases from waterfront to build. If it's already there, you're likely grandfathered in, but be careful. Even being grandfathered in on setbacks, ABC permitting, etc, you may not be able to expand unless you meet current code/zoning. Before buying, check the FEMA maps for flooding issues too.
If you're hunting down your own steaks, just make sure it's not your neighbor's livestock d*
"Great idea to start with something with improvements/utilities on site already. They add up quickly, and have far more onerous permit requirements than they used to."
I'm really warming up to this. I guess I'm most worried that a everything will cost too much--it'll be a home instead of raw land.
Not sure I can afford anyone's home. I need to find a SERIOUS deal!
(Laughing at myself because I've been in real estate for most of my life, but have no experience with raw land or wells or water features!)
"If you're hunting down your own steaks, just make sure it's not your neighbor's livestock"
No choice. Pretty sure I don't have the skill to take down anything else.
I agree with much of what others have said and, here is my 2 cents.
I first recommend getting the book "Country Property, Dirt Cheap" by Ralph C. Turner. It was published about a dozen years ago so might not be available. I could give you a review if you can't find it.
I would also recommend "How to Build Your Dream Cabin in the Woods" by J. Wayne Fears. He gives some property ideas before getting into the cabin and other stuff. This is a newer book and should be available.
Another piece of advise is to be patient. Getting back to nature or reconnecting with the land is not as easy as you might think.
One thing to do is to find a good source of local knowledge. Easier said than done, but one thing to do would be to ask questions as you go along, maybe in the "land" area of this site.
I strongly recommend getting wooded land with rolling terrain. It will "feel" much larger than it is.
Also, be very aware of what surrounds your potential place in the country. You might not smell that hog farm on some days, or not see that eye sore view untill the trees are bare in the winter.
There are a hundred things to consider, so make plenty of lists of what you want.
Thanks for the book rec, Poppy.
I think I saw it somewhere before (Country Property, Dirt Cheap).
That's EXACTLY the kind of property I'm going to need to buy.
The patience part will come easily since I can't afford to buy anything just yet. And "wooded land with rolling terrain" is exactly what I have in mind.
I've started doing searches on Craigslist for rundown fixer-upper houses in rural areas instead of "prime hunting land" or "future site of your retirement villa".
Good point about checking to see what's around you. A friend of mine found out way too late that he was close to a race track. Saturday nights on the back porch are out of the question if you want to have a conversation. Depending on the area, you might be able to get a lot of info if your county has a GIS site. Ours has all of the tax records, names of owners, zoning, flood zones, crime statistics, and even soil types.
I have had very bad luck with looking for land on Craigslist. Unlike everything else on there, it was very overpriced. I found better deals with real estate agencies, driving around, and public tax auctions. A lot of the people I found selling on Craigslist didn't need to sell and were asking far more than the falling market prices. Also, there is almost no information provided to sort by. People would advertise land from half way across the country and I would have to sift through it. I hope you do better.
Thanks for the heads up, Squirl.
I was wondering what was up.
I don't have a feel for the pricing yet in my area (up to about 200 miles outside of Chicago in Michigan, Illinois, Indiana, and Iowa) but didn't see much that looked attractive.
Seems like I should be able to do better than $8000 an acre ::)
But most of the sites that aggregate rural land listings seem pretty expensive, too.
Seems to me that for what I'm looking for--a few acres in the middle of nowhere with a brokedown palace sitting on it--not many agents would be interested.
We'll see.
Jay, the race track is a good example. I was going to give that as an example to Chris myself since I have one about 5 miles from my place and when the wind is right I can hear it on Sat. nights. It's not loud enough to be a problem, but I was really surprised that the sound carried that far.
Another interesting sound that I get periodically is GE testing jet engines about 15 miles away.
Another place that you want to avoid is under the flight path of either commercial planes or military aircraft, especially near the airstrip. I thought I found the perfect 15 acre spread with a nice timber framed barn on a quiet country road but when airliners took off from Greater Cincinnati airport, you had to stop a conversation because of the noise. :(
Chris, I found my property through a realtor, but it was in the local paper. There are usually realtors that deal mostly in properties just in the local area. They are often not on the multiple listing services. Again, local knowledge is the key.
Chris, on the idea of a "fixer upper"; just a couple of thoughts.
My experience is that a seriously distressed property won't necessarily be listed as a house with land.
Get a local paper and see how they break down the listings. Here in S. Ohio the listings have subtitles of "Homes", "Homes with acreage", "Farms", "Vacant land", plus "Building lots" and "Commercial".
My place has a decent old tobacco barn, an old house, a pond, and a falling down garage. The paper listing was under "vacant land". Even though the place used to be a working farm, the house and garage were in such bad condition that they weren't even mentioned in the listing.
It is not unusual to find a piece of property with some improvements like driveway culverts, septic, or even some kind of barn, but you have to check different kinds of listings.
Another good potential find would be a small place where someone began the process of building and had to stop. They may have a driveway, electric, a garage, and a house foundation.
The trick is to find land with improvements without paying what the improvements are worth. That's what I lucked into. The owner died in an auto crash and the bank reposesed the place.
Quote from: ScottA on August 09, 2009, 05:59:06 PM
QuoteRight now, my working plan is to have enough land that, standing in the middle of it, shouting good morning to my neighbor without moving closer is pointless and proof of either laziness or dislike.
3 acres.
Land feels bigger if it has lots of trees and is hilly.
When I lived in the desert where most of the lots were 2.5 or 5 acre parcels and standing in the middle of a square 2.5 or a 5 didn't feel much different from each other in the wide open nothing of the desert. Here in the Ozarks each tree covered acre of buffer zone almost feels like it doubles in size! Hills and trees make a HUGE difference BUT!!!!! Hills and trees can make building and gardening a real PIA! Just cutting down some trees don't make a pasture to graze a cow on because stumps can last longer than most marriages and the native vegetation will always try to compete for space (BRIAR PATCHES!). Hilly terrain is usually hilly for a reason,.....HARD ROCK! The higher areas have had a great deal of the top soil stripped away and only a small covering remains. Digging something as basic as footings can turn into a heavy equipment ordeal if your perfect spot is on a rock ledge. And as for digging a septic system :o :o :o You start to learn about the the more expensive alternatives to a simple tank and leach field.
Another thing to be cautious of in buying a "fixer upper" is MOLD!!!! It can be hidden in walls and hard to detect at first but eventually will make you sick. [yuk]. [chainsaw] So far this is the only SURE way I have found to remove it.
QuoteMy experience is that a seriously distressed property won't necessarily be listed as a house with land.
Wonder if there is a way of doing online small-town newspaper classified searches...?Get a local paper and see how they break down the listings. Here in S. Ohio the listings have subtitles of "Homes", "Homes with acreage", "Farms", "Vacant land", plus "Building lots" and "Commercial"
[Wonder if there is a way of doing online small-town newspaper classified searches...? Some company that owns a bunch or an organization or something?]
Thanks for this, Poppy.
I'll keep that in mind.
Keep the search broad.
It reminds me of one of my own real estate buying tips--what your buyer may look for as a feature, a seller may hide or discount as a flaw. An example: years ago i heard of a guy that was buying up old 1 bedroom houses to sell to retired-types. Such a house is usually worth very little since most people at least want the option of having a spare room for kids or a guest or a den. So most owners were either selling very cheap or hiding the number of rooms or insisting that the walk-thru dining room was a bedroom. This fools no one. But what if kids and guests are what you are trying to avoid? The kids can't "boomerang" home if there's no place to "boomerang" to. And as rentals, you can always expect a lot less wear-and-tear when you've got less occupants.
I heard he was doing quite well.
I have personally had buyers tell me they don't want a basement because they fear flooding (happens occasionally) in a city where EVERYONE has a basement and doesn't want a house without one.
I would love to find a bad house on good land because it probably has utilites, is on dry land, percs, etc. But I can see how sellers would not bother to mention the structure do to turning people of re habitability, demolition, it's an eyesore, etc.
One thing to remember about buying an old run down place, but with working utilities; electric, well, septic is that the old stuff may not be up to modern day code. In some places that may even put the kibosh on renovation work, let alone tear it down and build new. That varies with locale and is something to check before signing the final papers.
As many others have said where the acre is located makes a big difference. Our 3 acres in the heavily forested mountains feels a lot bigger than an acre back home in the glacial lake bottom flat prairies of Canada.
Along those lines it might be worth checking out the existing well if you are counting on it. We built for one couple on an old homestead that had an open well, I tried to pump it clear multiple times when we had the genny going and never got decent water out of it. I also suspected it had been used as a dump. That has the potential of polluting the surrounding water table. We were often the first ones using a new well, several times before any tests had come back. On one old farm the nitrates in the water were tremendous. A little thinking would have made that one obvious it had been in corn/beans for years. I also have issues with building on tillable land but that's probably more than anyone wants to hear.
This is some info on land measurement from Eric Sloane, any of his books are a joy to read.
A gunter's chain is 66' long, invented in 1620 by the English mathematician Edmund Gunter. It contains 100 links.
Ten square chains is an acre-66 x 66 x 10= 43560
Eighty chains is a mile- 80 x 66=5280'
A rod, pole or perch is also known as a quarter chain- 16-1/2' so 4 rods per chain
The old standard length for a fence rail was 11', a field could be quickly estimated by counting rails, 6 rails per chain.
A 6 rail fence consumed one acre of virgin timber per 10 acres surrounded. Second growth and later wood was not nearly as durable, often needing replacement in just a few years. Prior to wire fencing one thing that caused part of the westward migration was a lack of timber for fences. By 1883 it was estimated that we had 6 million miles of wood fence in this country.
Moderators, I apologize that this seems to be drifting into a "land buying" thread.
But. In the last few days I've discovered two websites that seem pretty good. Both are real estate ad aggregators. One is www.landwatch.com. 1000's of rural properties and while I don't have a good feel for prices, they seem better than what I see on Craigslist.
Even better is www.oodle.com, which seems to catch everything listed on Land Watch. It also grabs a lot of country real estate agents. And those agents *are* listing properties for $30,000 or less. Plus it lets me set up a search and emails me updates. Or I can set up an RSS feed for the search in my Google Reader.
Don P., what's wrong with building on "tillable land"? (That's farmland, right?)
There is nothing wrong with it per say, except that if you only have a small amount of what one would call "tillable", you may not want to ruin it by putting a house over it. Keep in mind tillable can mean different things, but in general I would say it means relatively flat, well drained soil that is good for agriculture. If you drive around in the county and look at older farms you will see most of the barns are built into hillsides or small berms, because farmers didn't want to take up any prime farming space with an outbuilding.
One of the best I used was realtor.com. I would use the advanced search and type in the name of a town. I would type in a minimum of five acres and 20 miles around. I would tell it just land and hit search. It automatically sorted by lowest price first. This will give you a good start to seeing what the average price is in an area.
Quote from: waggin on August 12, 2009, 07:06:08 PM
Great idea to start with something with improvements/utilities on site already. They add up quickly, and have far more onerous permit requirements than they used to.
If you want some kind of water feature (creek, pond, etc) on site, be sure the site is large enough to allow for setbacks from that water feature to property improvements you might want in the future. An older house may have a deck you can fish from, but in my county, to do something like that now, you'd better be able to cast about 165', because that's how far away you would need to be in most cases from waterfront to build. If it's already there, you're likely grandfathered in, but be careful. Even being grandfathered in on setbacks, ABC permitting, etc, you may not be able to expand unless you meet current code/zoning. Before buying, check the FEMA maps for flooding issues too.
[/quote]
Quote from: MountainDon on August 16, 2009, 03:41:21 PM
One thing to remember about buying an old run down place, but with working utilities; electric, well, septic is that the old stuff may not be up to modern day code. In some places that may even put the kibosh on renovation work, let alone tear it down and build new. That varies with locale and is something to check before signing the final papers.
Around here, an existing structure doesn't have to meet current code, unless you're remodeling. Then, the new work will have to. However, you might have an issue with something like existing knob & tube wiring with your insurance company if you're planning on isuring it. If you're close to water, an older septic system may have to be updated or relocated, but in most cases unless you're an imminent hazard to water quality, you're probably grandfathered in. Reference my previous quote above: as soon as you start changing the footprint or expanding, you then can run into issues with setbacks, septic, well, etc. If you keep your existing footprint, you'll likely be ok as ABC, even without an as-built or permit. Another thing to research is whether your property can fall under "recreational use" and have less stringent regulations. IE, if you're using it less than say, 180 days per year, is there a different standard for site requirements. Do your due diligence in advance; surprises can be expensive & unwelcome.
I recently found out that in my mother's town in CT, if you tear down, or otherwise lose your certificate of occupancy on a place with an old house, you have to start all over, and must meet current code. For example, my mother's septic system is too close both to her well, and to her pond by current code. As long as the house remains 'habitable', you're OK. Tear it down to build another house- big expense to get legal again.
That is very typical I believe. Even renovations done under a permit get caught up in things like the septic no longer has the capacity for the larger space extra new toilet or whatever.
Yes, especially if adding a bedroom. Septic systems are designed to a bedroom count.
Also, you have to resent code compliance in some localities if the cost of a new remodel is over 1/2 the current value of the house.
First time posting here...and on an ancient thread no less...but I figured I could add some information if the OP is still looking. When I am home, which is rare, home is Hammond, Indiana.
Farming in the area just over the Indiana border is not as profitable as it once was and many of the small family farms (under 100 acres) are struggling to get by or failing completely. In places like Lowel, IN you can find 10 acre tracts with original barns and outbuildings plus and older farmhouse for under $250K. For a Chicago dweller, that would seem quite the deal. Often the farmhouse is salvageable but just as often not. Indiana has very reasonable code requirements and enforcement for the most part.