Does anyone have any personal experience with underground potable water cisterns? Or thoughts about them?
Here's the background. We don't have our own well yet. We use water from a neighbor's well. It's too far away and too much of a rise to pump. We haul it as needed. This is not going to be easy possible when the snow gets too deep for the Cherokee and trailer. And no, we won't be plowing 4 miles of road to maintain access. At tat point we switch to snowmobile access.
Water left in an above ground tank or other containers will freeze. Hence the underground thought.
I have a lot of experience with cisterns for potable water, both in and above ground. All of my experience is in tropical climates. I've read about people who had cisterns in climates with extreme cold weather and they buried them deeply, used a variety of methods th absorb solar heat and sometimes used solar "bubblers" to minimize freezing.
Can you dig it down below the frost line?
Don just get it below the frost line. Any lines will have to be that way too. If you are going to be too low for the house and only occassionally use it you could get a frost free hydrant. I believe that a small RV pump will pull it up into the house even if the lines are lower than the foundation. I would say depending on the amount of water that you draw down when staying there a 500-1000 Poly tank will work.
I guess I should have mentioned I'd have my neighbor James dig a hole with his backhoe skidsteer attachment. I believe he can go below frost depth enough to get the bulk of the tank below the three foot level. I'm thinking of a spherical tank, 325 gallons or maybe 525. Those can sit empty without damage.
It would have to be configured with the supply line from tank to cabin having a drain back so that line would not freeze. There would be another small tank inside the cabin that would be refilled whenever necessary. Maybe only every couple/three days.
I can tell your days of child rearing are over. Shoot 325 gallons would only last my bunch (excluding me) a day or a day and a half. The biggest thing would be to get the outlet under the frost like. If it would likely freeze the top portion you would still draw down from the bottom.
Maybe you could cut it into a hillside or burm over it to cut down on the digging.
Quote from: Redoverfarm on November 04, 2008, 05:14:58 PM
I can tell your days of child rearing are over. Shoot 325 gallons would only last my bunch (excluding me) a day or a day and a half...
We can stretch it out real good. Laundry is done down here. No water use up there for the toilet. Showers up there are short with extremely low water allowance. When I'm there alone in cool weather, like now, I might use 2 gallons a day. In hot weather maybe twice that. To that I have to add an allowance for washing paint brushes, drywall tools and the like.
Plastic Septic tank , Don? I mean a new one -- not used. Didn't get time to read all of the above well --- should be good for drinking water.
Septics would work. Their shortcoming is that they all have a minimum amount of water that must be contained to allow safe burial. The spherical type like this...
(http://us.st12.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/yhst-57325452875569_2022_2168358)
... allow total emptying without danger of collapse. So 325 gallons in one of them is worth something like having a 500 gallon tank, as far as safely usable gallonage.
Maybe Ferrocrete would be better , because, they would not pop up out of the ground like a coffin in New Orleans, if the water came up around them - at least not as easy.
I will re-emphasis from experience that you really need to get your water storage/supply right to keep it running in the winter. I inherited a 500 gallon semi buried concrete cistern from the previous owner of the 20 acres and cabin I purchased 5 years ago. It is fed by a 180 foot deep well pump. The water in the tank freezes solid every winter. The water line also freezes where it enters the house. The guy buried the water line well below the frost line but left it exposed where it enters the house in the crawl space. I use the word crawl space loosely because he only left about 18 inches clearance to get under there. After gerry-rigging various bandage type fixes, I am finally going to throw in the towel and redo the whole water storage and house plumbing system. This will probably include a deep buried plastic holding tank and tearing out the house floor boards in one room to install a single point insulated water line entry point and then run the lines through the attic and interior walls. Just a good example why it is easier and cheaper in the long run to do things right in the first place.
My property is off the grid in North Idaho.
-Dave
We use a underground 1500 gal poly tank up the hill from the cabin at deer camp.
It has a low point drain for the entire system.
West Kentucky does not have a very harsh winter so it has worked flawless.
I have an underground cistern here for the cabin at the top of the hill....worked fine for several years...my water guy is coming today...we get 1000 gal's for 35 bucks which includes delivery, lasts about 4 and a half to 6 weeks with 3 people....only prob I've had is if you let it get too low between fillings, I have to go into the crawl space and re-prime the pressure tank on the pump....but no big deal...there's one bolt you take out, then fill until water stops going in, turn pump back on and presto.....
I have a 2100 gallon fiberglass underground cistern tank and have installed many poly tanks for other people. Norwesco makes a 1700 gallon tank designed for burial. The sides are ribbed much like metal roofing to add strength to the tank. Don't bury a smooth sided tank designed for above ground use. The pressure from the backfill will cause it to collapse. Also be sure to install a vent in the tank so the pump pressure won't pull the sides in. Kinda like opening a beverage can with a churchkey. Make two holes one for air to enter as the liquid is removed. I saw someone who used a concrete septic tank for water storage at one time without venting it. Eventuall the concrete bottom was sucked out of it and into the tank destroying it. One wouldn't think a water pump could produce that kind of pressure but it will over time. A vacuum is created. Here where I live in AZ freezing is not an issue. If you are standing on top of the ground looking at your shoes you are looking at the frost line. Even up in northern AZ I have left water standing in a tank on a hauling trailer through the winter and it doesn't freeze up maybe because of the volume. and it is in the sun all day long. Put it in a pipe and it will freeze and burst the pipe. In the colder climates I would go for depth. The Norwesco tank has a poly manway available that can be added to extend to ground level for access and also can be used for filling. The last I knew the 1700 gallon tank was selling here for about $900. OMMV. Google away.
If one was wearing high heels, would that raise the frostline, des...? hmm
I don't think anyone has ever tried that.
MD here is a link to the earthship site over in Taos. They use cisterns in all of thier builds.
http://www.earthship.net/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=23 (http://www.earthship.net/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=23)
Thanks for the variety of inputs. This is going to something to be thought about over winter and then worked on sometime next year.
One of the problems with collecting water off the roof will be making the gutters snow proof. Experience has shown that a standard metal or vinyl gutter doesn't last too long when the snow begins sliding off the eves. Removing them each fall and reinstalling in the spring is work I'd rather not have to do. Maybe some sort of a hinged thingy? ???
Most of our water would arrive in one or two downpours and a few more minor rains in July and August. Therefore a large enough tank to hold a years worth of rain would ne necessary, to avoid any hauling of water.
If there are any more thoughts/ideas out there, keep them coming. :)
Here is a crazy idea for what its worth. Take a piece of steel rod, maybe
3/8" or so. Bend it into an "L" shape. Flatten the short end and drill a couple of holes in it for nails. Nail this to the side of the purlins that make up the eaves so that the rod is slightly below the eave parralel to the ground. Now drill holes in the plastic gutter so that they slide in and out on the rods. This way they will be under the eaves in the winter protected from the snow. Obviously you will need to add a few details to this scheme, like a little bend up at the end to keep the
gutter from sliding off the rods if they get too much water in them.
Bruce
I imagine yyou woulld need some serious gutter, but there are the slotted covers that make the leaves slide over the gutter. Maybe a tougher one for snow? Then there is ice to think about.
My initial thoughts are that the gutter would have to be removable or hinged in a manner to allow it to be tilted down and under the eve overhang in late fall/early winter. ??? I'll have to get the paper & pencil out...
Or I could build a near ground level, low pitch catchment area on one of the slopes above where a tank could be positioned in the ground. If that was stout enough the snow could pile up on it and when it melted the water collected. Put a fence around it to keep the deer and elk off it. ??? That would be sort of like the guzzlers that are in place for wildlife in desert areas. Those will even collect the morning dew.
How about this - I showed a double fascia, but you could put drip edge on your sheathing and space the fascia out - flash or treated possible -- you can refine it- it would take the stress of the sliding snow off of the gutter.
(https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/snowgutter.jpg)
Hmmm. Some possibilites there. Better than having to remove something or take some proactive action. Passive design reigns.
My head always looks at things upside down and backwards then things like that pop out. [crz] [idea]
An approach related to the cachement idea might be roof water draining onto sidewalks sloped slightly across their width to a shallow gutter along one side, with the whole thing sloped to guide the water to the cistern.
Harry have you ever looked at the night crawler and fishing worms on a wet sidewalk after a rain.
If snow birds are cost prohibitive an alternative would be 1"X1" or 1-1/2" X 1-1/2" aluminum angle iron attached horizontal across the eve roof about 1' from the eve edge. It can be painted to match the roof color.
I am considering this option for my cabin as an alternative. I have it in place on my storage shed and the gutters have been in place for 6-7 years with no snow damage. Just attach to the peaks of the roofing with longer gasketed screws and an extra gasket between the iron and the roof. Only down side is to occassionally clean out the area between the angle iron and the sheeting valleys where leaves and pine needles might accumulate. But you should get up there once a year anyway to clean the gutters anyway.
Yum... meat with the water. They also can be harvested and deep fried I think - any recipes?
Here are instructions for other people who also might be interested in this method.
http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/~bruce/Temp/snow.gif
Here is a source of washable filter material(check to see if it is UV resistant)
http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/1747/Washable-Filter-Material
Installation instructions:
Drill small pilot holes in the galvanized angle iron where you want the
galvanized screw studs located.
Position angle iron in place and clamp.
Drill pilot holes into wood.
Remove angle iron and drill slightly oversize holes in angle iron to accomodate screw studds
with a little slop.
Drill pilot holes in wood for appropriate screw size
Reclamp angle iron in place.
Using two nuts in lock nut fashion, and a deep socket, screw in screw studs
Remove nuts and angle iron
Cut filter material in 4 inch widths and push on to screw studs so that top surface is flush with roof.
paint angle iron with rustoleum being carefull to coat areas that were drilled or cut.
Attach angle iron with ss wingnuts and possibly ss washers on top of rubber washer. Use antiseize!!!
Tuch up wing nut assemblies with rustoleum paint.
Hopefully I haven't left any thing out.
Quote from: Redoverfarm on November 12, 2008, 07:32:35 AM
Harry have you ever looked at the night crawler and fishing worms on a wet sidewalk after a rain.
Might be good dipped in chocolate..........Maybe a screen over the cistern inlet?