I'm toying with using 1x12 eastern white pine planks for flooring in our cabin and skipping the plywood altogether just laying the planks across the floor joists. Anyone see a reason this wouldn't work? The joists will be 16" OC. I know I have some goofy ideas but the pine's pretty.
Scott
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#1: Anyone see a reason this wouldn't work?
#2: The joists will be 16" OC.
#3: I know I have some goofy ideas but the pine's pretty.
Scott
#1 Depends on the dryness of the lumber, the quality of the lumber , and the edge detail of the lumber.
So you answer those questions and we'll talk further.
#2: Are they "I" joist? If so the part of the engineering of "I" joist is subject to the assumption that sheet goods will be used on top of them as sub flooring, at least I'd bet your money on that. :-/
#3: Pine is one of my top top three woods, in fact it was the wood I mentioned , "I'd come back as" , [highlight]IF I believed in reincarnation , which I do not ,[/highlight] for my Woodworkers guild interview.
So it's not a goofy idea and many older homes have White Pine flooring , Fir flooring etc. It is not very "common " any more though. But it have been done in the past , many, many times.
I'm not sure on the dryness of the wood but it seems stable I have a sample sitting in the shop for over a month and so far no visable change. As for quality...
(http://www.brightok.net/~cyscott1-ss/pics/pine.jpg)
Here's a shot of the sample I have. The joists are going to be lumber.
Scott
I'd ship lap the pine , if you don't you'll have gaps right thru to the crawl space.
And if it where mine , I'd still sheath the floor .
For a few reasons , the gaps being one , the flexing the pine will do when you walk on it , the ship lapping will help reduce that, but it will not eliminate it.
It also [highlight]will be a squeaky floor[/highlight] as those boards flex against each other.
The way to avoid that is , sheet the floor, ship lap the boards and lay the well acclamated Pine over a Rosin paper , some times called Builders paper, or unimpregnated felt paper. The rosin paper is generally a faded red color.
And it still will squeak some.
G/L PEG
Thanks Peg. I'm not worried about the floor sqeaking as this is a rustic cabin and that's to be expected. I'll let the wood sit for a several months before using it. My buddy has equipment for cutting tongue and groove edges. I'm sure that it can cut shiplap joints too.
Scott
You are better off with the T&G in my opinion. While the shiplap will provide a bit of a gap seal, it will not prevent the board on top from warping and lifting. Face nailing could help a bit with that but T&G with hidden nails will not go up or down so much and properly done will not separate.
Softwoods - pine - seem to shrink about 3/4 of an inch per foot in width from wet to dry. That is a reason the 6" wide boards are better at preventing gaps. It takes a good year or more for air dried boards to quit shrinking in my experience. I have my own sawmill and have used my own wet and dru wood on my cabin. I recently installed a pine T&G floor from two year dried 1x 6 that finished out at about 5 inches per board. A friend with a sawmill already had the T&G professionally done and planed so I bought from him.
T&G will work but I doubt it will stop or prevent cupping. ::)
Ship lap is a much more traditional for a pine floor and I thought easier to make for Scott , but if his buddy has a T&G bit that would / could work as well . Although with ship lap you can, and should, do about a 3/8" strong, leaning towards 7 /16"to 1/2" lap allowing for more shrinkage and wood movement.
Another reason to sheath and paper the floor would be, in a cabin / seasonal use building, how much moisture "could" be present from a open ish under floor and related "cabin" issues.
As Glenn pointed out shrinkage can be a issue , swelling as well could be player , in a cabin floor.
Nice to know that it is traditional, PEG. I didn't know shiplap was used commonly for floors -- I made plenty of it for my ceiling - and yes- I think it is much easier to make with simple tools. I used 2 skill saws - one set for the edge and one for the side -- burned up a router trying to do it with it. Saws were faster and easier.
I was thinking table saw with a dado head one pass each edge. ;) But I think that way cuz I have the tooling to do it that way. Others MMV, humm a new short hand OMMV = Others Milage May Vary :-/ What ya think , MTL won't catch on :( ;)
I haven't learned all the shorthand used already. I usually just type out the whole thing.
Nothing beats having the right tools - I suppose I could set it up and do it that way. Some of the boards I have are a bit rough to handle and would probably require a better setup than I would do. Also sometimes my boards are a little wavy. I guess the proper setup would still handle that. MTL will continue to do so. ;D
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Nice to know that it is traditional, PEG. I didn't know shiplap was used commonly for floors --
I talking old time flooring ,, common ,, way back, colonial times to pre WW-II, common. My house has ship lapped sub floor, D. Fir I'm sure , build 1947- ish just post war, before the first building boom in the 50's. The 50's was the start of sheet goods being used commonly and boards sort of drew down in use.
Southern Yellow Pine is sold as T&G for flooring as is White Pine , if you look hard enought/ in the right place.
I'm going from the angle Scott's wood is air dryed not KD , that could be wrong as I asked and he hasn't said , except to say" it's stable". Looking at the photo maybe it is KD :-/ , it has been surfaced planed , or so it seems.
Seems our 1952 house had 1x3 T&G over diagonal laid subfloor? Less seasonal gapping with that but it still moved.
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Seems our 1952 house had 1x3 T&G over diagonal laid subfloor?
Less seasonal gapping with that but it still moved.
Was this a question? The diagonal part?
If so I don't believe the diagonal lay was to reduce wood movement , although it would help as the flooring would then be laid , generally , parallel with the long walls , or 90 deg. off the floor joist direction, so it would make any wood movement lessened due to the diagonal lay of the sub floor as the cross grain (most movement direction of wood )of the flooring would be diagonal to the cross grain of the subfloor. Jeesh does that make sense :-? :-/
I think they laid it diagonal for wracking strength mostly , walls would be sheathed that way for that reason.
Mostly I couldn't remember but it was either that house or the one I helped my uncle remodel that had the diagonal laid subfloor.
Thanks for the added info as to why. I didn't see a lot of reason for it but have seen it on the old houses. :)
I'm jumping in here a little late but, I've been working on the lake house and just got home.
I installed 5" wide, 3/4" thick 'heart pine' prefinised flooring from Lumber Liquidators and the brand on the boxes was Clover Lea.
My sub floor is 1 1/4" t&g plywood, nailed and glued to I-joists 16" on center. I used 15# tar paper on top of the subfloor and then nailed the finised flooring on top of that.
I asked the guy at the Lumber Liq. store (who talked like a real pro and said he was a long time installer) how long I should let the flooring acklimate before I installed it. He told me what with a pier and beam, plywood sub floor I didn't really need to worry about it. Unfortunately, I took him at his word. And as I'm sure you guys have guessed, it has already cupped! BAD. I did let it set inside the house for a couple or weeks and from the time I started laying th floor in the living room, till I finished was about 6 weeks or so and it doesn't seem to matter, it has all cupped. I also left a good 1/2" on each side wall for expansion and a little space on the ends (didn't thing it woud expand long ways.)
So, what did I do wrong? I don't plan to change it out but, it really upsets me to have done everything the way I was told and still have it come out wrong!
Any ideas?
Okie Bob
More Info Bob , BTW sorry to hear about your cupping >:(.
#1: So is the place heated?
#2: For how long and is it heated while your not there, or do you crank up the temp when you arrive?
#3: Did you check the moisture content of both the sub floor and the back side of the prefinished stuff, with a moisture meter?
#4: I assume the flooring was only finished on one side ?
Lets see where this leads us , I will have more questions, I'm sure ::)
Glen I recall an old timer telling me years ago that the reason the subfloor was laid on the diagonal was to keep it from splittlng when the nails of the hardwood floor where put in since they all line up in a straight line they'd split a board in two if they where down the length of the board. Laying them diagonal kept the penetrtions from lining up in the boards below.
I just got home from my buddies house and he voted for shiplap if I didn't install plywood since the joints could be made deeper/wider whatever... more overlap. The boards in the photo have framing behind them. I butted them together over a month ago to see how big of gaps would form between them as they dried. So far nada... The guy at my local small town lumber yard bought a large lot of this stuff last spring so it's been sitting in the yard atleast 6 months. No idea when it was cut. The price is $1.45 a foot for 1x12's.
This cabin will be occupied year round and floor will be insulated.
Scott
Thanks, Scott. That does make sense.
So Scott's Pine is KD.
What your problem will be, as I understand it , you'll be using your Pine as sub floor / floor combo, so you'll be laying it before you stand your walls and it will get wet / be in the weather. You'll also be sliding things , like walls ,2x4's, ladders, etc over it while you build. You'll be tacking temp . bracing to it via blocks to hold your now stood walls plumb, you'll be dropping things on it and in general beating the $hit out of it , yanno common old building practices ;D
So if you lay it tight and it gets wet, it will swell , it may buckle , and crush the wood fibers.
Then after your in the dry it will shrink to beat the band and that will be what your left with to try and sand to make it look good, or at least passable.
So I'd say your setting yourself up for disappointment in the long run. But that's how I see it. YMMV.
G/L PEG
Excellent point Peg. Maybe I need to ponder this a bit.
Scott
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Excellent point Peg.
Maybe I need to ponder this a bit.
I see it as point[highlight]"S"[/highlight] !
I would, ponder it a bit that is! ;)
Peg, thanks for taking the interest in my problem.
First, the floor was installed in Aug/Sept and here in Tx it's still AC weather, no heat needed or wanted.
So, yes, the AC was turned on from before the wood was brought into the house, all through the installation and beyond. I would usually turn the AC up to 80 when gone during the week and back down to lower 70's when getting back down there for the weekend.
The wood was only prefinished on one side.
I did NOT check the moisture with a moisture meter. Actually, I asked the guy at Lumber Liquidators where I could buy a moisture meter and that is when he told me I didn't need to check it since I was on a pier and beam foundation with a plywood subfloor.
I'm confused about this Peg, if the moisture was too high, why would the wood cup? I would think it would only cup if it was too dry when installed and then gained moisture, causing it to expand and thus cup? Am I looking at this wrong?
Thanks for any input Peg or others for that matter.
Okie Bob
Bob it's hard to keep track of where all you guys are building without a note in the side line under your log in name , that's the easiest reference point , at least for me . then I don't have to go look at your profile page etc .
I'm going to guess when you say cupped the outer edges where the T&G profiles are have turned upward toward the ceiling.
[highlight] If so what that tells me is the unfinished down side of your lumber has gained moisture faster than the top (finished ) side.[/highlight]
What the sales guy may have said about laying it on plywood sub-floor and why a post and pier foundation would make "no problem " I , in my opinion think is just a salesmen spiel , line of absolute BS , typical of ALL MOST salespeople I've ever known. It's always easy , no problem , piece of cake , etc with sales people , ALL MOST all of whom never have installed jack shick in their live.
Now the why of your floor cupping ,
Is the under floor insulated ?
Do you have any type of ground vapor barrier and was it in place before you installed?
Is the crawl space enclosed?
Sadly all those are pretty much moot points , but things that will need corrected , if they have not been done.
You could try , but I doubt it would work , adding humidity with a machine , but catching that balance point of MC would be a trick .
Have you called the supplier and raised hell yet?
That would be the first thing to do , see what they say . They will MTL ask the same questions I did , or maybe they'll send you more materials , doubtful.
Sub-floors and the floating floor both need to be tested for MC and both need to be within a couple of % /numbers of EACH OTHER , so laying a floating floor like you layed which may have been very dry say 3 or 4% MC on a sub floor that was maybe at 10 or 12% the floater draws/ sucks that moisture out trying to "catch up / = out " with the sub-floor , the top side is sealed so it can't swell so the bottom "grows wider" and the board cups upward at the corners .
Sorry I hate giving bad news like this , really it sucks :(
G/L with your next step , PEG :'(
Just a FYI for Scott and Okie Bob... there was an article several months ago in The Mother Earth News about installing pine floors instead of hardwood... thought it might be of use, and if you look up their website, I'm sure it is in the archives. The floors shown in the article were really pretty. As an aside, I lived in an old house when I was in college, and the carpet was so filthy I couldn't stand it, so I ripped it up one night (my landlord actually took money off my rent for this because it was such a cruddy old place.) Underneath the carpet in most of the rooms it had scarred up old oak floors, but in the bedroom, it was a beautiful pine floor. The only problem I had with it is that it is relatively soft, so it scratches and dents really easily. I dropped a can of soup which hit the pine floor and left a fairly deep semi-circle mark. Still, even with the dents and scratches, it was sunny and cheerful looking.
Scratches and dents only add to the charm IMHO.
Peg you ever hear of building a house and putting the floor planks down after the roof is on? Sounds nutty I know but most of the roof work will happen from scafolding anyways. What you think? My cabins not all that big 16x26'.
Scott
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#1: Scratches and dents only add to the charm IMHO.
#2: Peg you ever hear of building a house and putting the floor planks down after the roof is on?
#3: Sounds nutty I know but most of the roof work will happen from scafolding anyways.
#4: What you think?
#5: My cabins not all that big 16x26'.
Scott
#1 : OMMV on that.
#2: No but MTL it's been done> ;D
#3: Sounds NUTTY to me as well, what will you put that staging on ? The joist tops ? You'll be making it harder on yourself , sure you could set the staging on temp sheathing , but then what wiil you do with those sheets?
I think it's VERY NUTTY idea! ;D
#4: See #3.
#5: I'd sheath the floor with 3/4 Edge gold and forget all the nutty ideas , pay me now pay me later sort of thing . Why make a job harder than it needs to be ? You subfloor should be under your wall plate not butted up to them, you'll create many down sides to building if you go that way.
But it's your time and your dime so >>>........... ;)
G/L PEG
The only thing that beats a 3/4 inch T&G plywood sub-floor for solid is a concrete slab, IMO. If you a good solid plywood subfloor it leaves the door wide open for changes down the road. You never know when the lady of the house might develop a taste for ceramic tile. And that's another good reason for not pushing the envelope when it comes to choosing the floor joists. My 14 x 26 cabin joists will be 2x10 16"OC for the rigidity, possible ceramic tile use, and for the insulation. I may have brown paper or cardboard walls inside for a little while, but it's not going to bounce at all.
OMMV
MountainDon said:
QuoteYou never know when the lady of the house might develop a taste for ceramic tile.
...and if she does I'd suggest getting her a good set of carbide teeth and a cast iron stomach. ;D ;D ;D
PEG -- I think I may be getting as funny as you... :)
Alright I give up but how do I keep the plywood from getting wet and warped? Glen I had hunch there was something funny about you.
Scott
That's probably true, Scott, but my wife keeps telling me that looks aren't everything.
Exterior glue on the plywood? Someone mentioned spraying it down with a coat of concrete sealer - may have been for OSB -- and I assume it is sub- floor so a drain hole drilled here and there would help along with squeegeeing or sweeping the excess water off after rains. That is what they did for 6 months at an apartment complex I worked on.
QuotePEG -- I think I may be getting as funny as you... :)
... nobody's as weird as you though. :)
Thanks, Don. ::)
On this board, I think that Stinkerbell may run me a close second though. :-/ ;D
Peg, I actually have my location in my profile but, it doesn't show up when I post something. Sorry for the inconvenience.
You are correct about the cupping. Finished side up and moisture must be coming from underneath causing the sides to turn up. And I couldn't agree with you more. But, this sales guy claimed to have just moved into sales from being an installer with years of experience. And he could answer any question I had off the top of his head...which should have maybe been a clue. Anyway, he was dead wrong and I do intend to go back to Lumber Liq with pics as you suggest. I know they will claim their only liability is to replace the material and of course that is a fraction of the cost to remove and replace if I wanted to do that.
To proceed-yes, the underside of the subfloor is insulated with about 4" of Icynene, the subfloor is 1 1/4" T&G plywood, nailed and glued and 15# felt under the 'heart pine' flooring. The crawl space under the floor is completely sealed except for vents which have been open all summer due to the heat. The flooring material was delivered to me around the first of August and I started laying it in mid September. It had been in the house from the day it arrived until present and the house has been air conditioned the entire time.
Peg, I'm sure I did something wrong but, I can't figure out what it was. The only thing I can come up with is that I did not have a moisture content meter so there could have been a marked difference in the MC of the subfloor and the finished flooring. (that was why I asked the sales guy where I could go buy a MC meter)
Sounds like maybe I should have gone with an unfinished flooring and then let it set for a few months before finishing. That way the moisture could more easily remain constant as it equalized????? That was what I had planned until I went to buy the material and found the cost of unfinished vs finished was very close and I figured it would sure save me a lot of work.
Anyway, thanks for your help. I may just leave the flooring as is for now, let it's MC equalize and at some point in the future come in with a big belt sander and sand it smooth and refinish. What do you think about that?
Okie Bob
They say those floating floors can be sanded, I've never seen it done , but I think the sander would move the flooring around , and I think that will make for a poor sanding job. At least I see issues with doing that, but some times I look to hard for problem.
I figure if you don't look for what can go wrong , IT WILL GO WRONG !
But that's just me. It's worth a try. I'd try to rent the newer model Radom orbit type floor sander rather then the older , and more common drum type sander , the RO should move the flooring LESS and that may help the process.
G/L PEG
BTW the "They " I mentioned are "sales type" people , take that for what it's worth ! In my book , NOT MUCH! >:(
Okiee Bob,
QuoteI'm sure I did something wrong but, I can't figure out what it was
Maybe not.. a few thoughts.
The assumption is that the underside is absorbing moisture. Maybe not. If the wood was dry and the underside is absorbing moisture the planks should be getting tighter as well.
If the wood was kiln dried incorrectly it may have been dry on the surface and still wet towards the middle. The top could be drying out causing the edges up buckling. In that case the boards should also be shrinking.
Another way to check would be to run a scrap piece through a table saw and cut an inch or so off. If it bends and twists as it is ripped there are pent up stresses in the wood from poor drying. In that case there isn't much you could have done. Stacking it with stickers for a long time maybe, but it would likely have warped in any case.
Seems to me that if it is a quality product it shouldn't take a rocket scientist to successfully install it. I think I'd jump on the supplier.
Doesn't Icynene prevent movement of vapor?
Only difference in moisture could have been sub-floor could have been damp? Vapor couldn't go down so went up expanding bottom of finish flooring material? Just thinking what could cause it. Already covered though I think.
Reading Charlie Wing's book I remember a warpage diagram. Could be just the way the wood was sawn and finished. Solid wood likes to do it's own thing.
Here is a similar diagram to what Charlie Wing had.
Study the diagram and study the wood to see what caused the problem. Note that heart wood going to sapwood is much worse for warping than farther out on the log. Boards made from small logs don't have much chance to stay flat, as the heartwood is more stable than the sapwood. It is a property of solid wood. Wider boards will show more problem than narrower boards.
I notice this when cutting my own boards on my sawmill. Doesn't make the problem any better -- may just make it easier to understand what is happening.
(https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/warpage.jpg).
Peg, the floor is not floating. It is nailed down GOOD. Rented a floor nail gun and remember this is 3/4" T&G flooring. Solid heart pine.
I do appreciate all the replies and want to respond to all but, I'm in a really big hurry this morning and it will just have to wait.
Thanks agin to everyone!
Okie Bob
Enjoy your day, BoB. :)
I researched this a bit - no actual complaints on the product quality but some were concerned it would have problems and talked about not buying it. Some liked it just fine.
The ones that like it fine seemed to have used the unfinished though. That doesn't mean the finished was good or bad -- just that I didn't find it.
Ah sorry BoB , well all the MORE reason to have checked the MC before installing. Hopefully you where sort of like Nixon and taped that phone conversation with the supplier ;D