9/11 Truthers are nuts!

[pagan]

Don,

Agreed.

[ScottA]

Is it still ok to discuss UFO's? 

[Sassy]

pagancelt, I don't necessarily mean to throw you into the pool of "conspiracy nuts", to use your words.  I do not care to contribute to this topic or others of a similar vein. The discussion invariably quickly becomes polarized and pointless, IMO.

Carry on all. 

Probably the main reason it becomes polarized, MtnDon, is that as soon as someone who does not agree with the "official" conspiracy story of 911 or anything else for that matter, gets blackballed immediately - called a "conspiracy nut", a "flat earther" "tin hat" - someone who believes in aliens or some other derogatory remark...  we have carefully looked at your arguments for years (not just the ones you posted, we've read countless others over & over in the MSM).  To me, I am in total incredulity that anyone could believe the "official" stories that have been posted.   

I try not to call you an idiot for believing the "official" conspiracy story, but you & all the rest who have slung crap feel it is perfectly ok to do so.  That's just as much censorship as wiping off the whole post because you denigrate those who don't agree with you. 

[Windpower]

It is fear Sassy

some people cannot allow their paradigm to be threatened

they are not stupid they are just afraid

There is of course ample evidence and testimony from real professional pilots, such as John Lear with over 20,000 hours a core member of Pilots for 911 truth, with the most type certificates of any current airman that will flat out tell anyone that they could not have  piloted the planes that hit the towers

There are check ride pilots that attemted to reproduce the flights of 911 in professional simulators and failed time after time after time

There are of course physical limitations such as 757 Vmo of ~350 mph KIAS  (that real pilots understand as opposed to someone that took the yolk of a Bonanza once) that the WTC planes exceeded by a wide margin.

There is the FACT that no other steel structures have ever collapsed from fire -- ever , yet 3 collapsed on 911

There is the fact that Jane Standley of the BBC reported that WTC 7 (that was not hit by a plane) had collapsed 20 minutes BEFORE the building collapsed 

lucky guess ?

NO, according to the BBC it was just a mistake

Except that it is impossible the BBC could have made such a mistake   --- think about it






The other sad fact, Sassy, is that some people are too frightened to allow their carefully nourished paradigm to be shaken  and will suspend any logic, swallow eagerly any silly argument, ignore any social politeness (that they would otherwise abhor such as name calling or defamation of character etc etc) insult long time friends, even be incited to violence (such as the time my sister slapped me because she could not refute my calm facts) to protect their paradigm.

It is a tragedy.

Those of us that are strong enough to face the evil, owe them our sympathy because they are simply acting as  frightened children.   

[glenn kangiser]

I have to agree with you, Windpower.  I took my instrument and commercial check rides and passed both.  It is impossible that trainees from a Cessna could do this even if they were good which these ones were not.

It is really funny that we were immediately flying drone planes remotely in Afghanistan with the pilots in the US as soon as we went after the Oil Pipeline problem.

I can face the evil and if we do not have the correct answers we at least have the correct unanswered questions.

[MountainDon]

To me, I am in total incredulity that anyone could believe the "official" stories that have been posted.   

That's funny. You more or less took the words out of my mouth; I am equally incredulous that some people believe the "facts" espoused by the self proclaimed 9/11 "truthers".

I don't mean to call anyone names. If anything I've posted has angered or insulted anyone I am sorry. However, some of the posts, come across to me in a similar condescending manner. Sometimes when reading a reference to things like the alternative 9/11 theories I feel that if I do not rebut I am endorsing the point of view that is divergent from mine. I should probably bite my tongue and shut up.

It's not so much that I believe the official 9/11 line, as much as I have trouble with distortions, omissions and factual stretches common throughout the information presented by people like Dylan Avery. For example, it's my theory that when a building collapses with one floor pancaking on another lower floor, the air between those floors has to go someplace; someplace like out through the sides or windows of the building; resulting in the so-called "squibs"; "proof" that explosives were planted in the towers. I could go into more detail on more items, but I feel there is little point.

What bothers me most about conspiracy theories here on Country Plans Forum is when they are interjected into ordinary topics, topics that have nothing at all to do with 9/11 or other such controversial subjects. To me that removes some of the class, some of the believability, of Country Plans. There is a tremendous amount of great information available here. If one can't find the answer they need, there's a good chance some member will have something worthwhile to contribute about the subject.

Maybe that's just me. No, it is not simply me. There are long time members who have self-restricted their personal use of the forum. They have privately told me so. Some have even thought of deleting their account because of some of the "off the wall" insertions. I know I originally came to the Country Plans Forum for the knowledge about designing and building cabins, about water wells, grading land, alternative construction, and the like. I also enjoy many of the Off Topics subjects that cement a feeling of community.

So those are some of my thoughts on the subject. If I've ruffled some feathers, so be it. It's water under the bridge. I spoke my mind. I believe this is a subject akin to religious beliefs. There are seldom, if ever, winners. There is just divergence of opinion or belief. The wonderful thing is that we in this country are free to express our beliefs.

No personal disrespect meant; no personal disrespect taken.

[bobtheengineer]

1)  Are you guys saying that no planes hit the WTC towers?  What was it then that thousands of people witnessed personally and millions say via tv cameras?  If you are saying pilots couldn't reproduce it in a simulator, then how did it happen?  Professional Pilots or Novices... You are saying nobody could do it.

2)  No steel structures have failed?? What planet do you live on?  Thousands of steel structures have failed because of fire.  Once a steel beam reaches about 1000 deg F, it loses its ability to support a load.  Scientific fact.  The whole purpose of fireproofing structural members is to protect them from the fire.  The fireproofing wasn't designed for a jet fuel fire. 

Make sure when you repeat things you have read, or heard, you dig into the facts a bit.  Facts are facts, not somebodies opinion. 

9-11 truthers are right up there, with the people who 'advanced' the whole global warming chirade.

I know I'm 'afraid' of the truth, or don't want to question things, whatever... blah, blah, blah

[glenn kangiser]

1. No Bob - not saying that.  We are saying that the official story doesn't add up.  We are saying that , yes - the towers fell.  Explain the lady standing in the gap of the supposedly red hot building waving a white handkerchief of some sort wanting to be rescued.  She was identified.  It did not melt her legs.  The tower still fell.  In the government simulated study of how it supposedly fell, the core was still standing.  When asked about that they did not explain it. 

I can't supply the answers but can supply more questions that make the government conspiracy unbelievable.

Fly by wire planes were already set up to be computer controlled at that time - to be able to be taken over from the ground in case of a hijacking.  I discounted this theory until a few months after 9/11, we were flying the drones in Afghanistan from the US and bragging about it.

Government secrets have always been successfully carried out without  breach for years involving many thousands of military who are in fear of death if they tell.  Loyalty to their cause and country.

Those who are happy with the official drivel and don't want to think there are people evil enough to do this running their government will not see a problem.  Those who are afraid to face tomorrow if it could be true won't see any problem at all.  They will believe the government will take care of them when the chips are down in a disaster. 

Tell that to the Katrina Blacks - the homeless displaced residents shipped out to FEMA camps in all corners of the US.  What happened to them anyway?  All we ever hear of are a very few of them. 

2.  What ever the temperature of the building, the fires were nearly out when the lady was waving the flag from the gaping hole.  The quantity of fuel and the fire was obviously not enough to keep her from standing there waving the flag relatively unscathed.  It is my experience in working with steel that when it cools down to that temperature that it has to be reheated to effect more change.  It doesn't suddenly explode and fall.

So you believe there is no global warming but not the truth about 9/11.  How unpatriotic.   Al Gore will not like you.

The fine points that we argue over regarding how they pulled it off and/or assisted it don't really matter at all. 

That is the small picture and is of little consequence.  The big point is that they accomplished what they wanted.  We are in endless war on an undefinable enemy making massive profits for the war machine and the elite, and we the people are asked to provide cannon fodder and unlimited money transfer to their pockets.

The global warming lies are also part of this groups money scheming.

[glenn kangiser]

Don,

It is my view that the very government that assisted 9/11 for advancement of their purposes in Afghanistan, Iraq, for an open ended paycheck off of the backs of the people, and other military purposes are being directed by the same people that are directing the financial meltdown and transfer of wealth from the government treasuries to the pockets of the elite. 

This is not one evil person or entity.  It is a mass movement by the forces controlling the money, government and big business for lack of a better explanation.  Laws like the septic system rulings we have beat back in California are sponsored by them to prevent the exact way of life we want.  The laws are being slipped in so fast - as in the case of anti-gun laws, and public 4x4 off road laws, that it is nearly impossible to keep anything of the way of life our very forum members want.  The 545 or so people running our federal government have a different agenda than what the people want.  90% of the people voiced their opinion that there be no bail outs but they nearly all went against their constituents wishes.

Thje Supreme court ruling on eminent domain shows how far the corruption has spread.  Our own states are having to declare sovereignty to help save their residents.  What is it that they see that we can't?

If we do not stay aware of what is going on and try to combat it, there will be no need for this forum.  At the rate things are going I can see the day coming when we will abandon this forum, electronic devices attached to government monitored communications and the internet, and then have to survive independently in our own small groups in our own areas without mass communications.

Until that day I will try to help others see and build their own country shelters.

[pagan]

I remember watching an interview with a man whose office floor was cut by one of the wings. He was actually talking on the phone when he saw the plane approaching and he dove under his desk. After the crash he climbed out from under his desk and walked over to the gash through his floor. He says he looked down through ten or twelve stories and could see office furniture and papers fluttering around. I also remember him saying that although he could see flames, he was amazed that it was not very hot. He had to climb over the wing tip to exit his office and worked his way down several floor where he bumped into a group of firefighters who were dumbfounded that he'd survived.

This took place moments after the impact and he could stand at the very top of the impact area and gaze down through the hole created by the plane. Yet our government says at that same point in time the fire was burning so hot that the steel supports were weakening.

[glenn kangiser]

Much of the fuel went out the other side of the building in at least one of the crashes.  What a coincidence that both buildings and one that was not hit went down within minutes and hours of each other on the same day.  3 of them but it seldom happens on other days --

I for one don't put that much stock in coincidences happening that way.

I am a pilot private/instrument/commercial rated.  I do not fly now but was flying more than 90% of the private pilots at that time.  In my plane I have been intercepted by military when slightly off course yet these guys flew for a very long time and were not intercepted - in fact m the military was ordered out of the air.

Their failure to have a problem with ATC and the military was not possible without assistance and cancellation of standard operating procedures.  That is why I did not believe the official story from the first minute.  The Air Traffic Controllers are extreme professionals and would not have let it happen without an intercept unless  they were prevented from it.

[Whitlock]

I am always bemused by people who usually are anxious to describe how incompetent, lazy, unorganized and simply stupid the government is but when something like 9/11 occurs are equally sure that same incompetent government somehow manages to organize some vast conspiracy, pull it off and then maintain secrecy among the hundreds or thousands of incompetent government employees required to accomplish the plan or deeds. The same employees who cannot keep anything secret from the media cockroaches the rest of the time.

Give me a break!!   

Good for you rwanders

[pagan]

Is this the same incompetent government that ran project "Green Run?" If you don't know about it, that's ok, they kept it secret. In late 1949 the US government ordered the intentional release of radiation from the Hanford processing plant in Washington. The government then tracked the health affects on the people who were contaminated. Of course those people didn't know they'd been deliberately contaminated with radiation by their own government, it was, after all, a matter of national security. This remained secret until the 1980s. I guess some people in government can keep secrets.

How about the Tuskegee syphilis study? Yup, once again incompitant government employees kept a secret about the government withholding medication from men infected with syphilis so the illness could be examined as it progressed in the men.

What about the "X" planes? SR 71, U-2, Stealth Fighter and Stealth Bomber. All kept secret for years.

Never make the assumption that your government cares if you live, for those in power will kill you slowly and painfully if it suits their purposes.

[glenn kangiser]

I agree with you pagancelt.  They can keep secrets through intimidation and threats of prison or death.  There is  a group in DC that purposely sets up traps and records blackmail items to control the politicians - they have something on near all of them --

Many of our service people in the armed forces are so loyal to their oath that they would never utter a word if ordered not to. Some are under the impression they must never tell no matter what criminal crap their superiors pull.

One of my covert ops friends stated that we are being ruled by the most evil group of people in the world.  He stated that we are not there to help people in the middle east - we are there to kill them.....

He said he would not have talked to me if he had not been here and know s exactly where I stand.

They can keep secrets.  If they know too much they may get a missile deployed directly at them as my other buddy did or some other odd accident. 

[glenn kangiser]

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705295677/Traces-of-explosives-in-911-dust-scientists-say.html?pg=1

[pagan]

There is nothing friendly about friendly fire.

[Windpower]

Empire of Oil: the hidden history of 9/11



http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=Empire+of+oil+Monagan&hl=en&emb=0&aq=f#

[glenn kangiser]

Interesting video-

"It Definitely did not look a commercial plane - I didn't see any windows on the side"  Mark Burnback, Fox News.

Marine 6, "that plane was a large bomber style green aircraft, into the second tower, be advised" along with a decent pix of it.

[glenn kangiser]

There is nothing friendly about friendly fire.

I'm sure he said it was the Tennessee National Guard - pulled up in a Humvee as I recall- set up a small missle and fired it directly at them - his men were pretty well vaporized - we saw the x-rays of the "Lag Bolts" holding him together.

[Sassy]

Thanks for posting that video, Windpower, I hadn't seen that one before.  Really puts it all together...  there's so much incriminating evidence...   

[pagan]

I was almost on the receiving end of an A-10 attack.

[glenn kangiser]

Was it intentional or accidental or do you know?  That had to be scary.  A wart hog is not friendly fire.

Accidents happen but our friend's was positively intended.  There was no question.  Pat Tilman's was intentional.  He saw through the lies and was trying to come back and talk.  Unfortunately for him, he was too well known and an accident was in order.

[pagan]

Do you want the whole story?

[glenn kangiser]

Please - if it is safe for you to tell it.

[pagan]

It was a training exercise that took place in 1986, so it should be safe. Sorry about this being so long, and the language.

I was assigned to an artillery battery on Ft. Bragg. Yup, I was a jumper. My battery commander decided it would be an excellent training mission if we took five of the six howitzers to the range and then at night the one lone gun left behind would fire illumination rounds and the five guns on the range would do direct fire missions. Sounded cool, right? I was with the Battery Operations Center and we maintained the radio communications with Fire Direction Center which stayed with the one gun a few miles away from the range.

While waiting for it to get dark enough to satisfy the commander, it was around midnight, everybody, including said commander, was sleeping. While I was laying there listening to the occasional radio transmission I heard two A-10s approaching. They flew past us at a few hundred feet. A few moments later I heard this transmission (paraphrased)

"Whiskey Niner to Range Control."
"Range Control go ahead."
"Whiskey Niner request permission to fire on new targets in tree line on 23."
"Range Control wait one.

Now, I was a tad fuzzy, having not had adequate sleep for three or four days, but my mind was working. While I lay there I heard the two A-10s fly by again, this time close enough that I could see one of the pilots looking at us in the moonlight. Then I heard this.

"Range Control to Whiskey Niner."
"Whiskey Niner go ahead."
"Range Control clear to fire on new targets in tree line on Range 23."
"Whiskey Niner, roger, out."

Both planes flew past again, banking to allow the pilots to better see the tree line. One plane accelerated and then banked hard lining up with the tree line while the other plane flew upside down across the range from our position. He was obviously observing the attack.

I rolled over and punched my buddy in the head. He was, as you might imagine, less than enthused with being so rudely awaken. Here is our conversation as best my memory serves me.

Buddy: "What the ****?"
Me: "Those A-10s are cleared to fire on new targets in the tree line on Range 23."
Buddy: "So what?"
Me: "We're on Range 23, right?"

Just like in the movies, we both sat up and looked up and down the tree line at the Gamma Goats and Howitzers nicely lined up just inside the trees.

Me: "You know what we are?"
Buddy: "We're the new ****ing targets on Range 23."

We both jumped up, he ran down the line of guns shouting for everybody to light something. I grabbed a flare from our Gamma Goat and shot it over the range. Our commander came bounding out from his jeep yelling...

Commander: "Who the **** just shot that ****ing flare?"
Me: "I did, sir."
Commander: "What the **** is your problem, stud?"

With our commander you were either a stud, a puppy, or if you did something exemplary you were a stud puppy.

Buddy: "Sir, those A-10s are cleared to fire on new targets in the tree line on Range 23."

Our commander was a bit quicker on the uptake.

Commander: "Light up everything or we're all ****ing dead!"

As they proceeded to turn on head lights, shoot flares, blanks, anything they had. I ran back to the BOC Gamma Goat to get on the radio. As I got to the radio I heard this and I assume it was the pilot flying upside down and observing the new targets.

"Check that, I got movement."
"Roger."

The A-10 flew directly over us and then banked slightly as it climbed. Then we heard this.

"Whiskey Niner to Range Control."
"Range Control go ahead."
"Whiskey Niner are there personnel on Range 23?"
"Range Control negative, you're cleared to fire."
"Whiskey Niner check that, we have movement in the tree line."
"Range Control wait one."

The two A-10s were flying around Range 23 waiting and then we heard this.

"Check Fire! Check Fire! Check Fire! Personnel on Range 23. I say again, personnel on Range 23."
"Whiskey Niner, roger, personnel on Range 23."

The two A-10s flew off and we went on with our mission eventually firing the howitzers at about 0200 hours. It was cool and white phosphorous at night is truly beautiful.

Our commander talked with range control officers and even met with the two pilots. He told me that the attacking pilot was going to fire just as the other pilot radioed for him to check fire. Oh, and I got an Army Achievement Medal for keeping us from being the new targets on Range 23, and I was a stud puppy until I got out of the Army.

Just one of several close calls. People are surprised when I tell them some of the things that happened while I was in the Army. They just don't realize how dangerous training missions are.