Building Earth Sheltered Houses in Northern Maine, Minnesota, or New York

[yank132]

We would like to build an 'Earthship' type semi-underground/semi earth bermed house to spend the rest of our lives in.

We have shortlisted the following locations:
              Maine - Oxford County in the Bethel to Rumford area
                        - Franklin County in the Farmington area
       Minnesota - Lake or St. Louis County in the Ely area
        New York - St. Lawrence County in the Canton-Potsdam area

We have spent a small amount of time in all three of these areas for recreational purposes during the May to October period, my partner went to SUNY Canton, and I was raised on the edge of the Catskills in New York.

We are looking for a rural property of at least 5-10 acres (many zoning ordinances require at least 3 acres to keep horses/livestock), and if we ended up with 50 acres we might not have to pay for any firewood for as long as we live.

Canoe navigable water frontage (lake/river) would be ideal, but failing this a stream or small pond would be necessary.

We do not want to have any neighbors within at least .25 mile in all directions.

Our lives are not compatible with 'off the grid' living - I need a 200 Amp continuous electric service for my workshop, so we would want at least a 400 Amp service (1 x 400 A, not 2 x 200 A) to the property, and our own step down transformer (ideally 75kVA).

We also do not want to live without high speed broadband (satellite broadband, based on the service/speed available in western PA, would be very hard for either of us to accept after having had cable broadband for the last 15years or so).

This earth sheltered house would be single story with a full length attached conservatory/hallway/atrium.

We're looking at designs of about 30 feet x 70 feet (including a 10 foot wide conservatory/hallway/atrium) – say, 2100 sq feet.

The roof would be single pitch, earth covered, with a 4 foot front overhang and vents above each window below the overhang.

My influences are Amory Lovins Rocky Mountain Institute in Old Snowmass Colorado (where he is able to grow bananas year round at an elevation of over 7500 feet), the designs of Ken Kern, and my first mentor Sam Mockbee.

We would like to incorporate the full array of 'green' systems - composting toilets, greywater recycling, geothermal heating/cooling, solar energy (electric/hot water/space), natural convection airflow, rainwater harvesting, etc.

I will be doing virtually all the construction work and we own all the equipment/tools/machinery/vehicles necessary.

We want a house that is a restorative design – this being WAY BEYOND sustainable, LEED Platinum, or Zero Net Energy.

So, have any forum members built an earth sheltered house in any of the areas mentioned? Or do you know anyone who has?

How receptive are local officials in these areas to non-traditional, eco-friendly, green, alternative building technologies?

Are there any 'less restrictive' localities within the areas mentioned that we should concentrate our searches in?

If you were contemplating an earth sheltered house in any of these areas, what would your priorities and/or concerns be?

Many thanks to any forum member who takes the time to respond.

[SouthernTier]

http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=5386.0

http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=5690.0

There's your bermed house threads (NY and ME).

Looks like a long wish list.  Probably will be hard to find property meeting all of them.  Probably will have to prioritize, especially with the 400A service and broadband.

[rick91351]

  from Rick and Ellen UP Here in Idaho.......

Around here it might happen about 2060.  In the meantime 220 to the meter base subed into two subpanels.  One for the shop - one for the house.  And satellite after you slow down a little is blazzzzzing fast.  But this is where we want to live so as WC Fields one said.  Take the bull by the tail and face the situation....

Good luck checking off your check list.......  

[operose]

As far as St. Lawrence County, NY goes, you will want to avoid the townships of Potsdam and Canton. Not because they are bad places (I own/operate a business in Potsdam and also went to SUNY Canton) but because of the taxes and regulations. The villages moreso but the townships themselves have outrageous taxes.

My personal recommendation based on your needs and if you truly want to be in SLC would be the smaller more rural towns (based on personal experience and having an off-grid/non-traditional home in one of them) -- Short list would be: Parishville, Hopkinton, Colton/South Colton, Pierrepont, Clare, Russell, Pyrites, Hermon, Dekalb. Propery prices and tax prices will be much lower, and the "vibe" is a lot more laid back, hands off, you do your thing and we'll do ours type of area.

You WILL want to avoid any properties that fall within the Adirondack park as the regulations for new construction and practically everything else are out of this world, as are property prices. Getting into non-traditional stuff often just makes this worse.

Check out slcmls.com for property listings and be sure to let me know if you do wind up buying property around here (personally, I REALLY dig Maine, and that's coming from an SLC resident...)

[umtallguy]

there are a number of earth sheltered homes around oxford county.

The bethel area is expensive because of the ski resort. Rumford is risky as the towns economy (what is left of it) depends on the paper mill. If that closes there is nothing left and taxes may get bad. There is generally cheap land available in greenwood, and over in franklin county in Jay northward.

If you want real cheap acerage look at Washington or aroostock county

[yank132]

Many thanks for the replies and the information. I will (slowly) check out all the links and sources mentioned.


fluffybunnyspuff –

I wrote .25 miles (that's 1/4 of a mile) – not 25 miles. But, imagine no neighbors within 25 miles! Daniel Boone would even be happy with this distance (I've read that he once moved because someone built a house within 10 miles of his homestead). My kind of guy!

So far the lowest elevation that we are looking at is almost 1000 feet above sea level, so flooding should not be an issue).

Years ago I worked on the construction of a nuclear power station for EDF, but a 3000 mile extension cord isn't very practical.

Yes, my green street cred is tarnished by my use of electricity in my workshop at times. We currently have a 400 Amp supply and our POCO is willing to upgrade this to 600 Amps (I don't want my 100HP/854 lb rotary phase converter to cause the neighbors any problems). Now a 600 Amp supply is overkill, but as it doesn't cost any more than a 400 Amp supply, why not have the insurance.

I guess, if I configured said rotary phase converter to pony start (i.e. using a much smaller motor to slowly spin the rotor up to speed before energizing) I could (just) get by with a 200 amp supply ("honey, you can't use the oven for a while because I need to use the lathe again"). But frequently cycling a rotary phase converter on/off hastens its demise, so I would rather have enough electrical power to be able to leave the rotary phase converter idling all day without impacting on my partners cooking/washing/lighting.

Chopping wood gives me a break from running and pushups, but with our house design I'll only need to split perhaps 1 cord per year, but this amount (I had to split 8 to 10 cords for our farmhouse in western PA before we insulated it) will never keep me fit!

Regarding growing food in cold climates, Amory Lovins (www.rmi.org) has harvested 47 crops of bananas in a greenhouse attached to his house in Snowmass, CO (7500 foot elevation). And there is a permaculture center (www.crmpi.org) in Basalt, CO (7300 foot elevation) growing figs & papayas year round in a semi PAHS greenhouse. So, I'm sure that my partner will have no trouble growing anything she wants in a PAHS heated Earthship greenhouse with an 8 foot high x 70 foot long bank of windows no matter what mother-nature does outside.



umtallguy –

Are any of these 'earth sheltered' homes actual Earthships, or (even better) full on underground homes?

There was an Earthship built in northern Vermont last year, and one was built in southern Vermont back in 1994/95.

So far, these are the only Earthship homes that I've managed to find anywhere in CN/MA/ME/NH/NY/RI/VT.

There was also an Earthship built in Ithaca NY in 2012. I'm searching for more Earthship homes in NY, but so far haven't found any.

I'm hoping to find an Earthship owner in a cold climate who has kept detailed records of their heating costs for a 15-20 year period, but so far this data eludes me. 

Perhaps, if recreational access to the North Maine Woods (i.e. large parts of Aroostook, Piscataquis, Penobscot, and Somerset Counties) was free, we would look at other counties in Maine, but until then, northern Franklin & Oxford counties are our focus.


operose –

Thanks for the heads-up regarding property taxes in the Canton/Potsdam area.

We are NOT looking to live in any 'urban' environment, rather a rural property with no neighbors within at least 1320 feet (.25 mile).

Your comments about building in the Adirondack Park are widely voiced and often read in print. However, being somewhat of an obstinate old fool, I've been doing some research about this situation and have found that perhaps the truth isn't quite so bleak.

We've been in touch with the Adirondack Council about our home ideas, and we have received an encouraging and positive response. Time will tell, but none of our ideas have been dismissed out of hand so far. Perhaps the Council is intrigued by the idea of having a potential 'show home' in the Park that could be 'livably heated' heated by just the sun (and would only require burning perhaps 1 cord of wood per year to raise the solar derived base temperature of 65 F up to 70 F).


All -

While my personal preference would be Ely, MN (big muskies abound in the BWCA), my partner really wants to be closer to her family in the Northeast, so NY (there is a real big pike in the Raquette River that owes me a rematch!) or Maine (trout taste fine, but the hunt for 50 lb muskies is my fishing addiction) are more likely to be our next home.

Neither of us are drawn to hot weather (my partner had her fill living in Florida in her late 20's, and I've had my fill living in various African countries in the 80's & 90's), but I like bitterly cold climates with snow coverage measured in yards/meters.

We are both cross country skiers (not snowmobilers) and canoers (not jet-skiers), and I fish, hunt, and also grew up trapping.

While 'Earthship' is technically correct, more specifically we want a PAHS (Passive Annual Heat Storage) configured Earthship. This is the system that John Hait devised in the early 1980's, and that his son James is evidently in the process of updating.

I've spent a considerable amount of time researching this type of house and talking with current owners of such designs, and I'm convinced that we could have a house in any of these areas that could be kept at 65 F (minimum) in the coldest temperatures ever likely to occur at absolutely no heating cost.

And if my partner wanted to raise the temperature to 70 F we would burn perhaps 1 cord of wood per year.

We will also be erecting a large (perhaps 28 foot wide x 96 foot long) greenhouse that will also be heated by a semi PAHS system like used by CRMPI in Basalt, CO (www.crmpi.org) so that we can grow vegetables year round.

There is a very active organic growing community in the Ely, MN area (so there is an established business environment for my partners gardening interests there). Now, if I could only convince her that MN would be better than ME, life would be sweet.

In Maine, any town/locality of under 4000 inhabitants can choose to not have ANY building regulations whatsoever (and many do choose to 'opt out' of the Ponzi scheme that masquerades as residential building codes). 

Our plan is to research (by using the internet and telephone) from afar (we're currently restoring a farm in western PA on a property that dates back to the Treaty of Fort Stanwix in 1784). When this is done (late 2014?) we will then rent the farm out and move in with some friends in the local area.

Then I will go put 'boots on the ground' in all the areas mentioned for a period of 2 to 4 weeks each, so that I can get a good 'feel' for these areas (including bureaucratic oppression), but as my partner is gainfully employed she can't accompany me on these trips.

I will return armed with thousands of digital photos and lots of notes from conversations, and we will shortlist the most promising properties. Then we will both go and choose a property/area together.

Then, I will transport all our construction and building equipment to the property, put up a yurt to live in, and begin the project by building a workshop (I refuse to build any house without a well-equipped workshop on site).

During the early/mid construction phases I will spend 6 to 8 weeks at a time working at our new property and then drive back to spend a week or so with my partner. I will also take some time off to go fishing and hunting (we have freezers to fill up after all).

I'm figuring that it will likely take me at least 3 years to get this house into a state that my partner would consider livable (I'd quite happily live in a tent in Alaska year round – as long as it had a 400 amp electrical supply!). At this point my partner would quit her job here, join me there, and then look for a job within a commutable distance.

For as long as it makes financial sense to keep renting out the farm we would continue to do so. And as the local area in PA has enjoyed a very buoyant property market (even in the recent period of downturn), the farm would be an appreciating asset as well.

Again, many thanks to any forum member who can provide detailed PAHS information, or point us to suitable properties.

[umtallguy]

the ones I know of are earth sheltered/ bermed.

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=mechanic+falls,+me&hl=en&ll=44.082522,-70.310955&spn=0.001929,0.003455&sll=45.188406,-68.984705&sspn=5.48188,14.150391&t=h&hnear=Mechanic+Falls,+Androscoggin,+Maine&z=19&layer=c&cbll=44.082488,-70.310853&panoid=fZd2HOTXMzO5Z1QIUGeRpw&cbp=12,30.77,,0,0

here is a streetview of one of them. The other is out towards Fryeburg and not visible from the road.

the web owner of http://thehomesteadingboards.com/ built a berm house in Penobscot county.

As I am sure you know a guy on here built one in oxford county as well.

I am interested in PAH construction as well, but it seems to be lacking in actual case studies and data to base an analysis on

[kvr28]

Someone directed me to this thread, I am the owner of thehomesteadingboards.com any specific questions just ask,



speedfunk has a well documented thread on the building of his earth sheltered  home here as well. We both started building around the same time in 2009 and watched each others progression as it was happening and being documented.

[MNshack]

I can chime in with a few thought about the Ely MN area.  I have spent my entire life in the area Tower/Ely so know it pretty well.

I will say I am not too familiar with Earth Homes but I do think it will be harder to find an appropriate place for one in the Ely area.  The area is mostly bedrock with some gravely areas, which is what you would probably want to find.  If it is not a bedrock area it for the most part will have very large boulders, size of trucks and bigger.  With all the bedrock it would be very difficult to do geothermal unless you happened to find the right place.

Lakeside property is still quite expensive, cheaper than 5 years ago but still expensive.  If you want to be on a lake it will be hard to get 1/4 mile for another place.  But otherwise if you stay off the water it is no problem to get 1/4 mile away or more sometimes miles. 

It is not really the right place for livestock, can be done but hay will need to be trucked in and there is a real issue with wolves, as far a livestock.  You can grow vegetables but it is a very short growing season, frost can happen anytime of the year, and soil is hard to find. 

Solar is an option but it tends to be a cloudy area so not nearly a productive as other areas of the country.  I also have a hard time believing you could get by with no heating costs in the winter, even with an earth house.  The old underground mines in the area would kind of be similar and they are chilly, in the high 40s, so I would not think in the dead of winter you could keep the house at 65 with no supplemental heating and I don't think one cord would be nearly enough.

After all that negative thinking on my part I will say that it is a great area to be in as far a being remote and close to nature.  People are good in the area.  I think my posts sound pretty negative but I just want to make sure you know what you could be getting into and should be looking for in the Ely area.  Lots of good fishing(1000s) of lakes and some great hunting too.  If you are still into trapping it is also a great area for that, tons of beavers, otters, mink, fox, martin, and fishers.

Any other questions or comments let me know.

Andy