Author Topic: 24x24 in Western New Mexico  (Read 107517 times)

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Offline Squirl

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Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #125 on: September 27, 2013, 06:54:43 PM »
I guess my first question is, how bad is it really?

¾ OSB? Is way over what is required for 16” O/C. 

You could also put down 1/4 OSB right over top to what you have now and forget about it.  Just make sure the joints aren’t within 2 inches of the joints below.

“Unsupported edges shall have tongue-and-groove joints or shall be supported by blocking unless nominal 1/4-inch-thick underlayment with end and edge joints offset at least 2 inches or 3/4-inch wood finish flooring is installed at right angles to the supports.”

Also if the flooring over it will be wood planks, you could just do that and forget about removing the old stuff.  Subflooring wouldn't even be required if you used 1" wood flooring.

“Subflooring may be omitted when joist spacing does not exceed 16 inches (406 mm) and a 1-inch (25.4 mm) nominal tongue-and-groove wood strip flooring is applied perpendicular to the joists”

Some of my floor joists had a few crowns.  I spent almost an entire day with much aggravation trying to get the tongue to fit in the groove over my entire build.  I had to block the last row because I was using cut pieces that had the t&g cut off.  The blocking was much easier.  Measure, cut, shoot a few nails, then just drop the board in place.  No hammering, no cursing.

Offline hpinson

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Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #126 on: September 28, 2013, 05:42:52 AM »
Squirl, that is actually quite a good suggestion. 95% of the (already 3/4") OSB is in very good shape, though a little stained.  One small 2'x2' square or so is quite mushy from a roof leak, to the point that it is dangerous.

I would need to measure the distance between the bottom of the door and the floor, but my guess that is around 3/4 inch.  Overlayment joints would be indeed staggered. This is explained well in The Ultimate Guide to House Framing book, which I use - and is as you describe.

I'm not quite sure what the plan is yet for the final floor.  I don't think I would use wood planks. Maybe just 1/4 nicely top finished oak or birch plywood with some sort of durable topcoat. At best this will be a bunk house in the future, and may even be torn down if I can't separate the building from the old mobile home which it is attached to and which I really want to tear down.  Unlike the old mobile home, the 16x24 addition was reasonably well constructed and sits on a good cinderblock perimeter foundation. I think it is (just barely) worth saving.

Offline old_guy

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Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #127 on: October 02, 2013, 01:37:45 PM »
It has REALLY been raining here.

All the rain has really blown out our access road.   Water carrying sediment starts high up and moves fast, cutting deep channels, and washing good parts of the road into gullies below the roadbed.

We did a little more improvised work with shovels to redirect sheet-washing water away from the road.  We will see in a few weeks how well this works, and maybe do something a little more permanent, if it seems effective.

HPinson - We have a long straight stretch of road than runs downhill on the way to our proptery in Tennessee.  It was washed out most of the time.  When discussing roads with the Forester, I learned a lot about water control.  One of the easiest and most effective are structures called water bars.  They are essentially a raised ridge running diagonally across the road, which causes any moving water to run off the road.  They are placed as close as needed to keep the moving water volume low.  With the addition of the water bars the road sat for 2 years without any sign of washout/gullying.  Look up waterbars.  They are a little more complex than the description above, but not much.

Offline hpinson

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Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #128 on: October 02, 2013, 01:54:57 PM »
That is the next step for sure.  The ditch diversion and sediment slowing measures did their job to a point, but one blew out in an unexpected place and way. A water bar would have prevented that. There are probably 4-6 points on the drive that would benefit from this.

Offline old_guy

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Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #129 on: October 04, 2013, 10:22:44 AM »
Here is a link (if I manage to attach it) to the Tennessee Guide to Forestry Best Management Practices.

It contains excellent information on roads, and also on other land issues.  It is well worth the read.

http://www.tn.gov/agriculture/publications/forestry/BMPs.pdf

Offline hpinson

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Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #130 on: October 07, 2013, 02:37:19 PM »
This is good information. Later tonight I'll check if this has been posted in the Referral Links section, and if not, cross post it there.

Offline hpinson

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Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #131 on: October 07, 2013, 02:50:55 PM »
One thing I am learning is that specialty building products can be very hard to come by.

On my home we have a lot of exposed heating ductwork which needs to be re-insulated and weatherproofed.

There are some new and  innovative products for doing just this, but they seem only to be available wholesale to licensed contractors at large volumes, and even in that case, the vendors seem to go out of their way to make ordering difficult.  There may or may not be one or two consumer distributors. In each case the "distributer" knows little or nothing about the product.  Pricing? No one seems to know, or the consumer version is priced so exorbitantly that no one in their right mind would buy.

I get this magazine called "Green Builder" sent free each month. Most of the products advertised in it are like that.

For some reason I get the feeling that a lot of these products are vapor and only can be purchased as a very large order, at which point they could be manufactured just-in-time, and in bulk.

Learning not to get my hopes up about "green" or "innovative" building products and pretty much have to settle with what is available at the big box stores.

Back to the old way of doing it, which in this case, is not so optimal. 

Offline hpinson

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Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #132 on: October 07, 2013, 03:59:02 PM »
I guess my real question is: why don't small and innovative building product business sell direct to the customer? The "distributers" are doing these small businesses no good at all.

Offline MountainDon

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Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #133 on: October 07, 2013, 05:02:11 PM »
Sometimes it seems like someone had an idea and that's about all we get to see.  The idea, no proof of the concept.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time and money to fix it?

Offline hpinson

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Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #134 on: December 28, 2013, 03:18:27 PM »
After two years of mulling various floor-plan layouts I think I'm closer tone that would work for my family. We moved away from the original dog-trot idea and towards something simpler and smaller.  It is a 24x24 layout, meant to house two on weekends and 2 guests.  The foundation would be a stem wall.  The floor would either be framed, or better, brick laid on sand. Walls would either be framed, or of a block material TBD -- fire danger is so high where I am: compressed earth block, poured Pumice-crete (there is a semi-local contractor), or something like Builderscrete, which at the moment seems unaffordable and unavailable in the western USA.  Electrical would be a grid-tie. Heating would be a direct vent propane stove in the living room area, and small direct vent heaters in the two other rooms and bathroom. Water heating would be from an on-demand unit. The lid would be a hip roof, 6 in 12, square, and either trussed, or perhaps timber framed with an open ceiling inside.  Roofing would be standing-seam metal over plywood, insulated.  IF framed, siding would be some sort of Hardiboard or simiar that is fire resistant. There would be sort of porch but I have not gotten Home Designer 10 to render one to my satisfaction yet.

Does anyone have any comments?







Here is the HD10 Plan File if anyone wants to play with it.

http://ruratec.com/media/24x24/24x24-final.plan

Offline MountainDon

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Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #135 on: December 28, 2013, 03:31:25 PM »
Friends of ours built a pumicecrete home by themselves. It took long time mixing with one of those stucco mixers we see around here a lot. Took a year for the walls one piece at a time. 18" thick I think. They did a stem wall and later did the sand and brick thing in some rooms and a crawl space and joists in some others.


Looks workable but like many small(ish) designs it does not have a coat rack or closet near the entrance. I know that is hard to fit in.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time and money to fix it?

Offline hpinson

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Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #136 on: December 28, 2013, 03:49:10 PM »
The lack of storage is a concern for me too Don. Perhaps mitigated a bit by external storage, which is available, as I have stabilized the old mobile home. I need to think on that a bit though -- no place to hang a coat even in the living room in this design.  :-\

The Pumice-crete idea came from this site - http://www.pumicecrete.com/  It is very well something that I would contract.  It sounds like a big messy job requiring mixers and forms and the benefit of experience -- and not something that I would want to take on; it would take forever and I would make a bunch of it most likely. I would take on a Builderscrete build were it available at a reasonable cost. Blocks now come from their new plant in Louisiana, but shipping still makes it VERY pricey option.  http://www.builderscrete.com/   

Maybe worth it in fire country, and given the insulative and decorative performance?

I REALLY like the look and performance of Builderscrete.  It comes close to the look of brick in Escalante, which is a big influence:

http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=13015.msg169453#msg169453





Offline hpinson

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Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #137 on: December 28, 2013, 03:50:23 PM »
Are your friends happy with the performance of their Pumice-crete build?

Offline hpinson

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Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #138 on: December 28, 2013, 04:03:01 PM »
Revised per MountainDon's comments.  Still not entirely happy with storage...

Offline MountainDon

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Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #139 on: December 28, 2013, 04:28:21 PM »
Are your friends happy with the performance of their Pumice-crete build?

Yes, they are.

My only concern about this is the same one I have expressed for log cabins. The mass of the wood or the concrete, masonry, etc can work against you when the structure is a part time residence.  But if you do the overhangs and the roof right there is reduced fire danger. Special windows required for that to be most effective.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time and money to fix it?

Offline hpinson

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Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #140 on: December 28, 2013, 05:41:39 PM »
I must have missed that discussion. Do you mean slow to heat and cool upon arrival?

Offline rick91351

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Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #141 on: December 28, 2013, 05:51:14 PM »
I must have missed that discussion. Do you mean slow to heat and cool upon arrival?

That is pretty much it in a nut shell.  But the up side the pack rats and mice are warm for a few days after you all leave....;)
Proverbs 24:3-5 Through wisdom is an house builded; an by understanding it is established.  4 And by knowledge shall the chambers be filled with all precious and pleasant riches.  5 A wise man is strong; yea, a man of knowledge increaseth strength.

Offline MountainDon

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Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #142 on: December 28, 2013, 06:04:17 PM »
Quote
Do you mean slow to heat and cool upon arrival?


What Rick said.   :)   

There is a lag the greater the wall and interior mass. The air can be warmed within a few hours in a small cabin like ours. It helps being one level with 8 foot ceilings. Within a day even the tile floors are warmed; not toasty but not frozen either. But as Don_P has said if you arrive on Fri for a weekend in a log cabin it will be nice and toasty when you are ready to leave.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time and money to fix it?

Offline UK4X4

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Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #143 on: December 28, 2013, 09:00:01 PM »
only one comment main entry door
lighting switch needs to be on the other side of the door - probably just a dwg glitch !

Offline hpinson

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Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #144 on: December 29, 2013, 06:14:28 AM »
That makes sense - switches need to be on the accessible side of any door. I need to consider placement of switches and outlets a little more carefully before moving to the next step - formal plans.

Keeping the interior cool during summer is more of a concern.  I need to run a heater generally evening and nights in November, and then again in March and maybe April.  Access is difficult during winter months.  Summers have hot days and nice cool nights (7800 feet).

My impression was that adobe houses stayed reasonably cool during summers around here (New Mexico), without a lot of help. Am I wrong about that?

Keeping mice out of walls is actually quite important to me.  It is speculated that a neighbor died of Hanta virus.

Does anyone have ideas on how to approach the roof support?  This has me a bit baffled on how best to proceed.  The spans are quite long for a 24'x24' square, about 34' I think, and I really don't want a big support post in the middle of the living room.  I would like the roof trusses to be exposed on the interior, so it could be nice looking engineered timber of some sort, or post and beam I suppose.

Time to break out Sketchup!



Offline rick91351

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Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #145 on: December 29, 2013, 06:46:03 AM »
I think down in NM and Az I would grab some of those old designs from the Arts and Crafts era there.  (Sorry but I love that era and style of architecture.)   There should be a lot of those old publications down there.  I like the idea of the hip pitch roof for that area.  It also leads away from a lot of interior support.  I might try and incorporate a venting cupola.  If you need more bearing support you have the bed room walls and the bath room walls to work with.  The front room could have exposed support beams and some sort of faux purlins that would look very southwestern open and cool airy.   

Hip roofs here are sort of a pain because shedding snow will not shed away from the door without a lot of extra work.  Where you do not plan to use it in the winter time all that much love the style and idea....       
Proverbs 24:3-5 Through wisdom is an house builded; an by understanding it is established.  4 And by knowledge shall the chambers be filled with all precious and pleasant riches.  5 A wise man is strong; yea, a man of knowledge increaseth strength.

Offline hpinson

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Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #146 on: December 29, 2013, 09:22:11 AM »
The idea of a venting cupola is to draw heat out of a roof, like a chimney?

I have an interesting old book somewhere of craftsman style house designs by Gustav Stickley.  You post reminded me to dig it out and take a look.

There would be a porch over the front and side doors.  I just have no been able to render that yet in HD10.

Offline rick91351

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Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #147 on: December 29, 2013, 11:03:55 AM »
The idea of a venting cupola is to draw heat out of a roof, like a chimney?

I have an interesting old book somewhere of craftsman style house designs by Gustav Stickley.  You post reminded me to dig it out and take a look.

There would be a porch over the front and side doors.  I just have no been able to render that yet in HD10.

The idea of a cupola is the same a chimney or a ridge vent.  The Stickleys, Greene and Greene and Maybeck just to name a few that were involved in this design.  Some is quite a reach for today.  The woods and time it takes to do such almost makes it impossible to replicate today with out spending huge amounts on craftsmen that might or might not .....  However I think there is a great possibility today to make a revival if you will with some short cuts and other materials.   Yours is a wonderful state for some great shoot from the hip architecture combining the south west desert with its supple colors and soft grains of wind born smooth.  I would love to try anything but conventional....  Hey I am excited in case you cant tell.       
Proverbs 24:3-5 Through wisdom is an house builded; an by understanding it is established.  4 And by knowledge shall the chambers be filled with all precious and pleasant riches.  5 A wise man is strong; yea, a man of knowledge increaseth strength.

Offline hpinson

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Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #148 on: December 30, 2013, 07:26:26 AM »
Ideas:

Anacortes Vernacular Houses: Pyramid and Hipped-Roof Variation:
http://museum.cityofanacortes.org/AHPB/documents/Vernac_Houses.pdf

Pyramid Roofed Bungalows:
http://www.historichousecolors.com/documents/Pyramid-BungalowBasics-84-871.pdf

Discussion about 24x24 6:12 timber framed hip-roof:

http://forums.tfguild.net/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=24183&page=all

It is looking extremely complicated to build.

Design principles:
http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/martin-s-ten-rules-roof-design

So - no valleys, no dormers or skylights, unconditioned attic (??? not sure I want this as opposed to cathedral framing), hip or gable (prefer hip as it conforms to historic roof styles of the area), metal roof, vents as near to peak or ridge as is possible.

http://sbebuilders.blogspot.com/2013/01/pyramid-hip-roof-rafters-equal-unequal.html


Very rough hip roof calculator:
http://planetcalc.com/1147/

Another hip roof calculator:
http://www.blocklayer.com/roof/roofeng.aspx

Collecting visual ideas:






Venting Cupola idea:



Smaller Gazebo idea:

http://www.howtospecialist.com/outdoor/gazebo/how-to-build-a-gazebo/
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 10:09:24 AM by hpinson »

Offline hpinson

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Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #149 on: January 04, 2014, 05:54:55 PM »
Merged thread about something killing big juniper trees on our land:

--------------------------------

Same here (not a whole week though).  Burned a lot of slash and we have a pretty good perimeter, or so we tell ourselves.  The slash burned like it was --- dry. 

Some parasite is killing the big Junipers, which is a shame because they are gorgeous trees. They die off very quickly.  The smaller Junipers don't seem affected.

Drought seems to really affect the trees, and my wife says the PJ woodland landscape will be quite changed in 30 years.  She is starting to do a study of the change on our property. The woodland is changing to something more like it was in New Mexico around 1900.  Have you ever seen that book that compares locations in New Mexico from around 1910 to now? Can't quite remember the name, something like "New Mexico: Then and Now".

Here's the before and after:







-- Harlow

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MountainDon
Re: My 15.75 x 30 Jemez Cabin

http://www.amazon.com/New-Mexico-Then-Now-Rephotography/dp/1565794435

Haven't seen that, till now.  Thanks



Old bookmark, that still works. NM & climate from NM Tech

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rick91351
Juniper

About the Juniper you might PM Pinecone he has helped me out a couple times.....

Rick

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rick91351
Re: Juniper 

I was thinking of what did it. 

I have seen these a lot when I was a kid to now never knew what the heck..... ???

Sent it to Pinecone  - it is Sapsuckers that do that..... 



https://www.google.com/search?q=sapsucker+bird&rlz=1C1LENN_enUS506US507&espv=210&es_sm=122&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=rFfHUqmRI8f4yAHs-YHACw&ved=0CDoQsAQ&biw=1366&bih=642


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rick91351
Re: Juniper

Sapsuckers are actually the little woodpecker I sent you .  Not a bore at all like I supposed.  The jury is still out if they are going after insects under the bark or in the bark or just sort of searching.  Just like certain times of the year woodpeckers love to drum.  This is why may time they will attack a cabin.  They want to drum for a mate or call attention to themselves.  The old thing of well I'll be a Yellow Bellied Sap Sucker came to mind.

Mistletoe I did find this example and yes I have seen it kill trees but not Juniper but we do not have Juniper in our area.  We do west - south - and east pats of Idaho.  As far as posting WOW be my guest  ;)



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hpinson
Re: Juniper

Yes, that's exactly what is on the affected Juniper trees.

-- Harlow

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rick91351
Re: Juniper

Yes it will especially if the host is already stressed...... But I would be interested in seeing anything you come up with as well.   I have seen it in alpine firs and such and killing the tops.   Like I say I just never = to Juniper.  Seemed like it needed a lot more humidity or moisture. 

Rick