Property line?

Started by 325ABN, April 21, 2010, 07:45:48 PM

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325ABN

What is the best way to find the exact propery line. I have two marker monuments about 700ft apart though the woods on hilly land. I tried running a string but thats just not going to cut it!

Any ideas?

diyfrank

If you can get your hands on a transit you could site in the line.  If you know the bearing and have 2 point to work off to get set up. If not, you may be able to have someone hold a story pole up high enough at one corner and set up over the other to get your line. Wack a way at anything that you see through the lens and you will have your line.   
Home is where you make it


Pine Cone

First - have you looked for blazes on trees or a flag-line through the woods?  Depending on who used to own it, there may be remnants of the last survey which are visible.  Blazes should face the line, flags should be on the line.

The other thing you can do is the old-fashioned forest survey way.  Use a good compass to start a line going about the right direction from one of the one of the known corners heading towards the other corner.  Every 50 or 100 feet, put a tall stake in the ground (a station), normally 4 feet high works well.  Sighting along the tops of the stakes keep putting in a stake every 50 or 100 feet depending on how far you can see.  The line needs to be as close to perfectly straight as you can make it, and the stakes need to be put in with the horizontal distance (not slope distance) being measured as accurately as you can.  As you get close to the other corner, you need to place your last stake so that it is on a line perpendicular to your preliminary survey line, otherwise known as a p-line.  Over 700 feet you should be able to keep a line straight within an inch or three if you are careful.

This establishes a right triangle with the hypotenuse being the true survey line.  Measure the exact distance from the second corner to the post on your p-line.  Using the magic of similar triangles, you can then compute the offset from the p-line to the true line at each post, again establishing a perpendicular line from that station to the true survey line. 

For example:  Your p-line ends up 800 feet long, and the distance from the end of the p-line to the corner is 100 feet.  At the station which is 400 feet along the p-line the offset to the true line will be 50 feet.  Half the length, half the offset.  At the first 100 foot station the offset will be 12.5 feet, at the 200 foot station the offset will be 25 feet, etc.

My first forestry job in 1975 had me doing a similar process, using a staff compass and a 2-chain trailer tape.  It might seem crude, but it does work.  Most of the lines we ran were a mile long.  The big effort is clearing the brush and limbs which keep you from seeing along your p-line.

To turn the 90 degree angles off the p-line you can use a compass, or if you only want an estimate of the location of the line you can use the Swedish method, taught to me by my harvesting and forest survey instructor.  Stand on the p-line with your arms out-stretched so that the fingers of your hands point to each end of the line with your thumbs up.   Adjust your body so it is oriented along the line as well as you can.  Close your eyes and sweep your hand forward until your palms touch.  The line created by your eyes and thumbs is pretty close to a perpendicular to the p-line.

If this doesn't make sense I can draw you a diagram...

If you know someone who knows how to run a transit or a dumpy-level or a staff compass they can be used too.  Pretty easy to rent transits from rental centers.

If you're not too fussy you can also use a GPS to estimate it by setting a waypoint at each end and then trying to figure out the location of intermediate points.  Only good to 20 or 30 feet though at the endpoints, so your center point isn't likely to be more accurate than half that distance.

Beavers

With wooded hilly terrain the cheapest and easiest way to find your "exact property line" might be to hire a surveyor.  If you volunteered yourself and a chainsaw to cut line for the crew it might save some you some cash.

If there is no way to see between the two corners you would need to have at least three corners found, two of which you would need to be able to see between.  You could then set up on one corner, sight the other corner and turn the angle and run in your line.  Of course a lot of times the angles and distances in the legal descriptions don't exactly match what is in the ground.  The points in the ground usually trump what is on paper.  

If there is a mid point on the line that you could see both corners from you could "wiggle in" if you have a transit.
You find a point that you can see both points from, set up the transit, sight one corner, turn 180 and see how far you miss the other corner by, then move the transit a little and try it again until you wiggle your way onto the right line.  Hope that makes sense.
BTW- A $500 transit isn't going to cut it for this kind of work.  With a line that long, being off just a tiny bit with the angle could throw your line off by feet.

If you really want to be sure of where your line is, hiring a surveyor might be the way to go.  Sometimes things aren't as cut and dry as they look at first glance.  Having things staked by a surveyor might be a good way to CYA, in-case a neighbor doesn't agree with your survey/

Beavers

#4
Oops.. I type slow, Pine Cone posted while I was typing.

No disrespect Pine Cone but there is no way you get within an inch or three eyeballing a 90 and using that method over that distance.  ???  If you are are off just one minute on your bearing that puts your line off by over two feet by the time you go 700'.  I really don't even think you could eyeball it that close.  Being off just one degree puts you off over 12' on that same line.  IMO that would be the kind of accuracy you would be able to expect for a hand held compass if you were good.  After correcting up at the corner you might be able to get the line within a couple of feet, but if you need to know the exact line there really isn't any replacement for a good transit, and someone who knows how to use it. (AKA, a surveyor)


Edit:

Should of read a little closer too.  d*  Pine Cone mentioned keeping the stakes on the P-line within 3", that might be possible if you were good and took your time. After reading his post again that really is a good method for running in a line, learn something new everyday I guess.  If a foot or two either way is OK with you I'm sure you would be fine as long as you get accurate measurements between you stations.  If you are building close to your property line, or want to put up a fence, or want to know your exact line, I still think you need at a minimum a good transit or a surveyor.



glenn kangiser

I used a compass, cut brush, used the legal description measurements  and headed in the general direction until I found mine along with the assistance of flag bits in the brush but a wood rat also took some to his nest throwing me off a bit.

After locating the markers I took the Bobcat and cleared a trail as I am going to fence it for some steers. It helps if you already know where you are looking but even then it is not always easy.

The points mentioned above by others are probably best.
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.

ScottA

If you need it to be accurate hire a surveyor if not you can use a good compass. You'll need to know the bearing of the line. This may be on your deed it may not. You may need to get a USGS map to find the bearings. What we've always done is get a rough line and clear it out enough so you can see all the way down it. If there is a hill between your points start there. Sight one point and record the angle. Then turn around and sight the other point. Move over a little and repeat until they are on the same bearing. Mark that spot. We'd then take a roll of wire and pull it out between the marks. A roll of barb wire is a 1/4 mile long. If it's a property line get your neighbor to come and agree to the line. If he won't agree move over 5' onto your side and build the fence.

Pine Cone

#7
I would agree that a licensed survey is the only real way of finding out where things are.

Your eyes are very good at seeing whether or not things are straight.  Look down a fence line.  You can see if the post tops are in line or out of line by sighting down the top of the posts.  The problem is having a good sight line out in the woods.

The key to the method I was describing is that you use the compass to set a general direction, but you use your eyes to keep the line straight.  Local magnetic variation is often a factor when using compass lines, and if you have a good compass, you need to worry about iron or steel items on your person/clipboard/hardhat/pen/etc. which can cause problems as well.

The p-line will certainly be off the true survey line by many feet at the end of 700 feet, but it can still be a line which is straight within a few inches if you have unobstructed views.  Going up and downhill isn't a problem, but a single tree on or very near your line can make it impossible to get a good visual line.  In that case you are stuck using a compass line which will be off by a minute or more.  

One minute of error in 700 feet would be about 2.33 inches if you use the rule of thumb that one minute of angle (MOA) is 1 inch at 100 yards.  Most lines established with a hand compass are accurate for establishing an angle within one or two degrees, which translates up to ten feet over 700 feet.  I think the old K&E transits we used in my surveying class in the 70s were accurate to two minutes of angle at best.

I fully agree with you that get an accurate perpendicular line you can't eyeball it or do it with a hand compass, but if your p-line is reasonable close to the true line the offset distances will be small over a 700 foot line, hopefully your offset at the end of the line will be within 20 feet or so.  While the p-line might be accurate to a distance measured in inches, the accuracy of the true line is likely to be more like two or three feet given the difficulty of turning the 90 degree angle off the p-line.  

The real question is how much  accuracy is needed by 325ABN?  There are lots of ways to get within a yard or two of the real line, but survey equipment and somebody who knows how to use it are the ultimate answer.  There are lots of ways of getting with 10 feet or so, but if you really need to know you need a survey done by a pro.

If you do use a compass line, remember that declinations from true to magnetic north drift over time, so the number printed on USGS quad maps may or may not be accurate depending on how old the map is.  If you know your lat/long you can use this web site.
http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/geomagmodels/Declination.jsp


SouthernTier

Quote from: Pine Cone on April 21, 2010, 10:33:08 PMIf you do use a compass line, remember that declinations from true to magnetic north drift over time, so the number printed on USGS quad maps may or may not be accurate depending on how old the map is.  If you know your lat/long you can use this web site.
http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/geomagmodels/Declination.jsp
Not only does declination vary with time, the bearings on the deed may not be true north.  They may well be north for a state plane coordinate, that depending on how close you are to central meridian of the particular state plane project, it may or may not be true north.  Note, USGS maps also have grid north in addition to true north and magnetic north (magnetic north from some time years ago), but that grid is the UTM grid, not the state plane grid.

So yeah, it's complicated.

The paint-on-trees for my property was way off.  Fortunately I am an amateur cartographer/GIS guy, so I knew this.  But to get it set right, I hired a surveyor to plot the line.  I could have done it and got pretty close, but then a neighbor might not have believed me when I just went and grayed out the red blazes on the trees!

And getting back to the state plane issue, I believe my blazes may have been in error by whomever painted them because the deed listed the angles in a state plane projection for the other end of the state.  Not sure why that was, but plotting the metes and bounds in GIS (I had them for several of the parcels along the road), the only way I could get them to line up with the road and creek was to assume the other state plane projection.


325ABN

Thank you all for the input!

Since I do have two known points I am going to give the string method another try. This weekend I am going up with my brush cutter and chainsaw to do my damnest to get a string strung unobstructed between the two points. Is is important that I find the line because I am building close to the setbacks.

JavaMan

I am quite curious following this discussion.  I have managed to find the USGS stake at one corner of my property from when they were through there in the '90's (no, the 1990's, not the 1890's  ;))  But that is only one corner.  I have a bit of a bet with myself that the access road, which is simply an easement and not a county road, is completely on my property. Supposedly it comes on just west of the southeast corner, wanders east off the property, then back west coming back onto the property, and exits some 288' west of the corner stake I found on the north end of the property. 

Of course, I can't seem to find a nice stake at the south east corner to pull a line through to be certain.

And the legal description isn't that helpful either (NE NW - that's all there is - even on the assesors site - except range, township, section, of course)  And the GIS map that is on line isn't helpful either.

So, I'm watching, reading and learning from this thread.  I wish I knew a surveyor or even had some sort of rudimentary knowledge in that area (or that dad was still around since he knew some of this).  Hopefully, I will be able to glean enough from here to satisfy my curiosity.

I'm not too worried about building on someone else's property, but it would be nice to put together a somewhat accurate map of the property and what  improvements I hope to put in. :)

Beavers

I do construction surveying for roads and bridges...land surveying gives me a headache.  d*

A lot of a land surveyors day can be spent in the courthouse digging through old papers trying to piece together the puzzle.  Might spend 10 hours researching and only a couple of hours in the field.  I prefer being in the field, so I'm fine with not being a "real surveyor" and just doing construction surveying.  ;D

So here is my two cents, based on my limited land surveying knowledge.


There is a very good chance that your property has never been surveyed and had all the corners set, especially if it is in a rural area, and is not "high value" land.  Is the USGS mark a pipe or is it a cap set in concrete?  I'm not 100% sure but I don't think the USGS ever set actual property corners, unless your corner also happens to be a section corner.  If it is a cap does it have any stamping on it.  All the USGS monuments I have seen have a date, an ID # (U246) or something like that.  If it is stamped like that I would guess that it might not be your property corner. 

You said that the legal description of your property wasn't very helpful.  Does it mention a point of beginning, or have any bearing or distances?  You might try looking up the descriptions of your neighbors properties, they might be to shed more light on where the corners are. 

Some of the real old stuff can get really tricky, it wasn't always a nice pipe used for a corner.  The description might call out a "12 inch elm tree", "mound of rocks", or any number of other things.  Then you get in the whole pecking order thing... The legal description might say one thing, the corners found might measure up to something different, there is pipe in the ground where the corner is supposed to be, but 5 feet away is a large stone that was called out in the original survey which one is the corner, but your land was split off of your neighbors land so you have to go off the original description of his property, but this has been the accepted property line by both owners for a couple of years, is there now adverse possession, and it goes on and on like that.   Gotta a headache yet?  ;)

I think your best bet would be to try to find out more info by going to the courthouse and seeing what you can dig up on the neighboring properties.  If your land has never been surveyed and corners set, it could be pretty high dollar to get it surveyed.  Depending on size and how much research the surveyor has to do, it could be a couple of grand.

Beavers

Pine Cone,

You are right...
One minute over 700' is 0.203 feet not the 2.03 feet I posted.  Got the decimal in the wrong spot.  d*

325ABN,

If you are building close to the setbacks just be damn sure that the pipe you found are the actual corners.  There have been a lot of cases of owners putting in there own corners where they think they should be.  If the corners have caps with a Surveyors number stamped on them you should be good.  Try to double check them any way you can, either by comparing the distance to the legal description or checking the bearing of the line.  It would really suck if in a couple of years a new owner bought the neighboring property and had it surveyed only to find out you were over the line or in violation of the setbacks.  If I were building right up to my property line I would spend the cash to have it surveyed just make sure.  Tearing down a house I just built doesn't sound like fun to me.  :-\

Pine Cone

#13
Quote from: JavaMan on April 22, 2010, 08:22:48 PM
I am quite curious following this discussion.  I have managed to find the USGS stake at one corner of my property from when they were through there in the '90's (no, the 1990's, not the 1890's  ;))  But that is only one corner.  I have a bit of a bet with myself that the access road, which is simply an easement and not a county road, is completely on my property. Supposedly it comes on just west of the southeast corner, wanders east off the property, then back west coming back onto the property, and exits some 288' west of the corner stake I found on the north end of the property.  

Of course, I can't seem to find a nice stake at the south east corner to pull a line through to be certain.

And the legal description isn't that helpful either (NE NW - that's all there is - even on the assesors site - except range, township, section, of course)  And the GIS map that is on line isn't helpful either.
JavaMan - welcome to the wonderful world of land and survey records...

Beavers has it right... land surveying gives most of us headaches.  I don't do the field work any more, but I have the fun of helping tracking land and survey records for the company I work for.  In a good year that might be over half a million acres in three states and one Canadian province.  Currently it is a little over 150,000 acres in two states and 9 or 10 counties.  

Get out your aspirin, an ice bag and be ready for it d*

Looking at old records can be especially confusing.  

I once had to look for an Oregon pine which had been blazed at the base about 80 years before when it was 12" in diameter.  First you had to guess how much it might have grown since then, and then you had to know that an Oregon pine is what we now call a Douglas-fir.

Here is a quick intro to land subdivision...

Do you own a 40 acre parcel?

In legal terms, The NE 1/4 of the NW 1/4 in the legal description is often followed by the words "... 40 acres more or less"

Is the stake on the NE corner of your property?  If so it might be a quarter corner.  I have shaded the NE NW in the drawing below.



This is a crude drawing of how a section is subdivided.  Most land in the US, especially the western US (minus areas with Spanish land grants) uses a standardized Public Land Survey System, which creates Townships which are 6 miles on a side containing 36 sections.  In theory a section is a square mile, but it is not always so simple, especially for the top row of sections numbered 1 through 6 which are often smaller.

In the simple world, a section is first divided into four quarter sections, the NW, NE, SE and SW.  Each of these can then be further subdivided, normally into quarters which are 160 acres in size.  Common legal descriptions are things like the NW 1/4 of Section 18, Township 12N Range 15E, Willamette Meridian.

If you want to subdivide it further the quarters are then subdivided again into quarters making areas which are 1/16 of the original section and contain 40 acres.  One of these subdivisions might be referenced as the NE 1/4 of the NW 1/4 of Section 18, Township 12N Range 15E, Willamette Meridian.

Since surveyors and land records people want to maintain the secret handshake an passwords, it is common to drop things like the "1/4" part of the legal description so you can end up with  "NE NW S18 T12N R15E" as the legal description maintained by your local county.  That might be further simplified to "NE NW 12N15E18" if they wanted to be brief.

The BLM is the Federal agency responsible for the PLSS system.  The Washington Department of Natural Resources is the lead state agency for PLSS stuff.  Most rural sections have, at most, the section corners set.  If the section corner was set by the BLM there will be a brass cap stamped with an identifying number and a brief legal description of which corner it is.

Sometimes you will have the 5 quarter corners as well, one in the center of the section and one half-way along each side of the section.  Often these corners will be pieces of RR rail or wooden posts with something carved or painted on them.

Lots of rural areas do not have the 1/16th corners set.  They might be a piece of pipe, RR rail, wooden post, or a stick with some flagging wrapped around it.  

It sounds like your parcel might have the north quarter corner and three 1/16 corners.  You should be able to find out what section corners, 1/4 corners, and 1/16th corners are set in your area by searching county records or county GIS or WA DNR GIS data sets.  The DNR maintains a GIS layer showing section corners and other corners with a brief code about their quality and/or origin.


For more info at the hard-to-understand detail level...
http://www.blm.gov/cadastral/Manual/73man/id147_m.htm

Have fun... :)

Here is a better link...
http://www.nationalatlas.gov/articles/boundaries/a_plss.html


JavaMan

Pine Cone - you are correct, it is the NE 1/4 of the NW 1/4 of the Sec/Range/Township... but on the county records it only says the NE NW (employing the 'secret handshake' and obfuscating it even further!)  Yes, it is 40 acres - "square" as square as something this far north can be!

The little pink or red dot on the right most "sketch" that you posted is the brass cap / marker that I found and it states something about a CADASTRAL Survey.  The date says 1998 (if I recall), so it was fairly recent - but since I found that in November, and there was a good amount of snow, I couldn't find any of the other corners.  I will look next month (hopefully next weekend  :)) when I go up!



I will check out those websites and see if they have a record of any other stakes that were set - which at least if there is a record of it, I would then know they were there and should find them ???

Oh, I wanted to add, that I was up there in Nov, and took that picture, and then called my wife ("Beautiful") and had her searching on the internet for things relating to the survey! All the while standing out in the snow and cold ... until the phone dropped the call (I had to put my foot down and my tongue back in my mouth - that's the only way I get any cell coverage up there :o)

diyfrank

What carrier do you use javaman?
We get a strong signal everywhere over there with At&t.
Home is where you make it

JavaMan

Quote from: diyfrank on April 23, 2010, 05:12:14 PM
What carrier do you use javaman?
We get a strong signal everywhere over there with At&t.

Well, I will admit to exaggerating a bit - but I'm with AT&T also.  Decent coverage -as long as I'm in the right place on the property.  Usually where I park to camp - isn't.  d*

If I walk about 4 feet forward of the truck, I can get a good signal - until I hold the phone to my ear.  Back at the truck, I get a crummy signal - until I hold the phone to my ear.  So, I place the call in front of the truck and retreat back into the truck to talk  :)  Go figure.  Most people up near me are on Verizon.

I don't mind too terribly, I don't go there to answer or make phone calls, just sometimes it's nice to call home and let the family know I made it ok.  Then again, if I spent some time on the radio in the truck, I'd know more people up there, too, and they could get a message back as well.  I can talk all the way up to Whistler on 2 meters from the ranch, so that's fine.  If I *really* need to let someone know something, I can  :)

Pine Cone

The monument is clearly a BLM survey cap.  That is great news.   So you have a quarter corner.  My guess is that there may be now other monuments set, but that cap being there just saved you thousands of dollars if you do want a survey.  If they did the quarter corners, they most likely did the section corners.  Might still have to set the center quarter corner, but you need one section corner and 3 quarter corners to get the legal subdivision for your 40 acres.