Project #2!

[pocono_couple]

For all of those seasoned builders who caution us against moving in our homes before they are finished - I must heartily agree!   Of course, I have to quickly follow up with an admission that we did not heed that advice,  and we have been in the house permanently for the last nine months.. and there is plenty yet to do     So, why am I now starting a thread about a second project?  That is an entirely legitimate question.   In one word, the answer is  circumstances.   

My wife will be giving up her teaching job at the end of the year in order to begin full time work with her brother at the family orchard.   The drive to the orchard is just under an hour, and there will be times when she/we  will need to spend overnights at the there, so we need a place to stay.  This presents us with the perfect opportunity to build a tiny house - a cozy, little spot of our own which will give us a lot of flexibility for those busy times during the growing season.

A tiny house is nothing new here on the site - ours will be  8 x 16  with a loft.. we will have power, but no plumbing.    We will install either a porti potti or  a  composting toilet..     I am leaning towards an envi heater   http://www.envi-heat.com/    but may add a  a tiny marine stove for ambiance and flexibility..   http://www.marinestove.com/sardineinfo.htm

Construction should begin during the latter part of March.   If all goes well, I may have a space at school and a crew of students to help build the house..  we would build it in sections  so that we can then load the deck and walls on a trailer to transport to the site.   Three years ago,  we did a similar project - the kids built a garden shed that we then auctioned off during our parents' weekend..   It is a neat opportunity for the students to gain some hands on experience.

The house will be set on 6 piers.   it will have a Victorian influence.  I am actually using plans  for a shed that I bought from an architect  many years ago.. never built the shed, but now the plans will serve as the basis for an expanded shed -  or, like the fellow at home depot said yesterday "  sounds like an oversized dog house "   he was smiling when he said it and actually, was rather interested.. 

so. question number 1...   I will use pressure treated lumber for the beams on top of the piers..  any good reason to use pressure treated lumber for the floor joists?   the house should be at least 6 inches above grade.. 

the house will only be 8 feet wide..  I tend to over-build.. but the plans already call for 2x8 joists..  I think that will be more than adequate..    I will put 2 inch insulation board in the floor.     I will probably go with 2x4 walls...  it is a small space to begin with, so I think that it will be pretty efficient.   

rafters..   2x8  with six inches of insulation.. leaving a gap for venting.. i will use the plastic vent shutes..    the ceiling will be catherdral..     most of the interior will be faced with 3/4  inch  bead board, but I may use some  sheetrock to  break up the wood ..

question #2  ( although, feel free to comment on any of the thoughts that i have shared   )   where do i find that cool little gothic window that is shown on the builder's cottage plans?     Yes I did buy those from John..   saving them for the house we build in Maine..   my plan is this..  once my wife gets used to an 8 by 16 foot space, the  14 x 24  builder's cottage will seem like a dream     i will let you know how that works out in a few years!

I can't wait to get started and to begin sharing pics here..   and, we have to get this all finished before sailing season!  ( yeah right...)   or, at least, before we move in

[Redoverfarm]

I believe the norm for floor joist is that if they are less than 12" above the ground normally PT material is used.  Could be wrong but stands to reason moisture in close proximity of that space.   

Although it doesn't really matter that much but with the baffles and R19 0r R21(6-1/4") you will be fine.  But if you go with something thicker you will be compressing the insulation with the air baffles and loose some R value in the process.

[pocono_couple]

well..   that is some food for thought..  buy PT, or  design for a 12" +   crawlspace..    best to ask questions before heading off to the lumber company!    thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.. 

[pocono_couple]

this is what our design looks like...   I am a sucker for Victorian  touches..    Instead of  board and batten, I may opt for vertical tongue and groove  with the V groove showing out  ( around here, v-groove comes with  bead board on the opp. side)    In either case, I will sheath with half in  ply and then run horizontal  furring strips to provide an air space behind the final finish.     We are in the discussion phase about the interior layout, although we are a bit limited by the amount of space with which to work! 

wondering about just using 2 x 6 studs..  not losing a whole lot of space for the additional insulation..   I can't wait to get started on this  project.   

[MountainDon]

I believe the norm for floor joist is that if they are less than 12" above the ground normally PT material is used.  Could be wrong but stands to reason moisture in close proximity of that space.   

Beams; 12" minimum to grade or should be PT

Floor Joists 18" to grade, or should be PT

And for my money anything less than those measurements makes for a near impossible situation if you or anyone else ever has to do something underneath.

[pocono_couple]

that is helpful Don,    and, you are absolutely correct about  considering ever getting underneath.   While I can't imagine that happening at this point,  it inevitably will happen!   so, we will shoot for  1.5+  foot clearance..    using PT for the beams ( just to be safe)  and KD for the joists..       thanks for taking the time to offer your thoughts..   

[pocono_couple]

let's see  if this works...   sketch done in sketchup - still a lot to learn about the program!   

[archimedes]

On a project this small the difference in price between PT and untreated wouldn't be that great.  For me,  in humid FL,  I always err on the side of caution when it comes to wood near the ground.

Looks like an interesting project.  Looking forward to the pics.   

(It's always sailing season in FL) 

[pocono_couple]

thanks archimedes  -  good point - that is one of the true benefits of building small ....  ok - PT it will be     my motivation for working with KD instead of Pt was dealing with the added weight since it is likely that I will be building components and then moving them to the construction site at a later date..  but I am sure that I can deal with that.

yes- the other forum on which I am active is the compac yacht owners association -  lots of folks there who remind those of us in the north that sailing in January is a perfectly normal activity!     

My wife and I were talking about insulation last night..  wondering about using wool.   There is a significant price difference, but  again, a relatively small overall outlay..  and we like the idea of using as much natural material as possible..   has anyone here used wool?

[pocono_couple]

The first piece of the new house!


I have been working on the little portico for the tiny house.    This is upside down, of course!   I figured that, while I wait to get started on the actual structure, I might as well use this time to  work on some of the details.  It is going to be so nice to have this stuff finished and ready to go when the house is constructed..  and, knowing myself,  I might not have quite the same patience if I were to let these things go till the end! 

hmm, and what is that in the background?     well, those are the frames for the new dinghy that I am building for the upcoming sailing season - just waiting for a lumber order to be filled.. 

The great news is that I spoke with the Dean at school and got the green light to build the house with students..   so the first project will be to get the shop ready.    My plan is to do the cutting and layout work before the students arrive so that I can give them some instruction and a bunch of hammers (and goggles)  and watch as this thing materializes.    A couple of years ago, a group of students and I built a shed for the parents' auction.   Here are a couple of pics..





hmm.   our tiny house won't be a whole lot bigger!    But I think that we will go with the same color.  My wife picked that out, and we really like it.   

[archimedes]

Nice looking shed.

If you don't mind me asking, what subject do you teach?

[Redoverfarm]

Might find something of value at this site.  They have a lot of old "gingerbread".  But if you are like me I try to make my own. 

http://www.vintagewoodworks.com/?utm_content=redoverfarm%40hotmail.com&utm_source=VerticalResponse&utm_medium=Email&utm_term=&utm_campaign=Storewide%20Sale%21%20Save%20on%20EVERYTHING%20at%20Vintage%21content

[pocono_couple]

thanks Archimedes,
   I teach  high school math -  algebra, geometry, pre-calculus..   I especially enjoy the practicality of geometry for folks like us on this site!   The group of students who built the shed were members of the stage crew - one of the activities that I have been involved with at school for a number of years.    I have also taken a group of them to Maine for a community service trip the last five years.. we get to work on all kinds of neat projects up there.   And next week we will be heading to WV for a week long habitat for humanity trip.. this will be a first for me..   

john- thanks for the link to the gingerbread site.. i actually have a printout of one of their screen doors on my desk..   I can't believe what they charge for screen doors!   like you.. i think i will make my own      

[Redoverfarm]

thanks Archimedes,
   I teach  high school math -  algebra, geometry, pre-calculus..   I especially enjoy the practicality of geometry for folks like us on this site!   The group of students who built the shed were members of the stage crew - one of the activities that I have been involved with at school for a number of years.    I have also taken a group of them to Maine for a community service trip the last five years.. we get to work on all kinds of neat projects up there.   And next week we will be heading to WV for a week long habitat for humanity trip.. this will be a first for me..   

john- thanks for the link to the gingerbread site.. i actually have a printout of one of their screen doors on my desk..   I can't believe what they charge for screen doors!   like you.. i think i will make my own      

What part of WV?

[pocono_couple]

greenbrier county...  the habitat group is called almost heaven.     are you familiar with the area?   if so, any tips on things to see this time of year would be welcome..  also good  places to eat

[Redoverfarm]

greenbrier county...  the habitat group is called almost heaven.     are you familiar with the area?   if so, any tips on things to see this time of year would be welcome..  also good  places to eat

That is the adjoining county to me.  In fact the county line is 5 miles below my house. I am about 40 miles north of Lewisburg.  Actually 31 miles from White Sulphur Springs which is along I-64 before you get to Lewisburg. I would imagine you will be traveling that route.   The Greenbrier Resort is located there.   But if you go don't forget to take your American Express with you. $$$$$.  There is a bunker built into the resort which some find interesting as it was designed as a retreat (self sufficent) for the Washington Crowd given a man made disaster.  They have tours they offer.

There is the run of the mill food establishments such as Applebys, Bob Evans, Ruby's,  and an assortment of fast foods.  There is a nice place in the middle of town a little higher upscale than those mentioned called Food & Friends which has really good food.

Sort of "Off Season" unless you like to Ski (Snowshoe Ski Resort).  Lewisburg is where the State Fair is held annually but that of course is in August. There is the National Radio Observatory just north of me which is the largest "radio free zone" and has the largest steerable telescope in the world if your are into Astronomy.  The offer tours as well.

I'll send you a PM.

[pocono_couple]

What is the next best thing  to  gathering your tools and jumping into a new project?    How about visiting someone else on the forum and being totally inspired by their hospitality  as well their craftsmanship!   That is exactly what we did this past week.   On my way home from WV, I had plenty of time to think about the time we spent at Redoverfarm, and the word  "confluence"  kept coming to mind..    John has been a contributing member here for quite some time, and I have been somewhat active on the site since beginning our house in the poconos  5 or so years ago,  but things really came together in just the past few weeks..   

I really just became active on the site again last month as a result of this new tiny house project.    And, we just happened to be headed to WV as a result of the request by a student last september  that I consider chaperoning a habitat for humanity trip.   And, I happened to mention that trip on this thread.   Having read that post, John extended an invitation to get together when we were in the area..    And,  what turned out to be an erroneous weather report, spurred us to leave a day early, leaving us with an unexpected  entire day to fill  before beginning our mission.    And all of that, coming together, led to a trip to visit John and his family  and a chance to see the dogtrot  cabin that he built at the top of a  wild and beautiful mountain..   ( also got to inspect his current apartment project - very cool - although i still can't imagine what he will do with all of that extra storage space    )



it was a rainy day, but that did not dampen our enthusiasm  for the trip..   we were totally impressed with the work at  Hightop.    And,  I look forward to someday visiting again for  a musical gathering!   

We are home, safe and sound,  but this next week will be consumed by a trip in the opposite direction..  VT , here I come!   After that,   construction on the tiny house begins     

[ChuckinVa]

I love sitting on that porch. Or swinging.

[pocono_couple]

On my way home from VT the other day, I passed a  few shed places and took note that most of the sheds are built on 4x4 skids.. not unlike my shed here and the one that we built at school..   ( although i used 4 by 6) 

so i did some research about how they actually place the sheds on your property.    One site gave very detailed instructions for site preparation along with a video of them placing a shed.. actually one guy with a "mule"  did the entire operation, and it was a pretty big shed!

their plan is to lay out a perimeter that is  1 foot longer and 1 foot wider than your building, using 6x6 PT posts.   and then filling in the interior with crushed stone..   their sheds then simply rest on the stone..     I gather that they have reasonable success with the sheds remaining level. 

so, the obvious question...  would this work for my tiny house?     the reason that i find this appealing is that, over time,  we may actually want to change the location of the house.. and this system would make for very easy movement with relative ease of  reclaiming the the materials as well as the lawn where the house will be placed..   

[pocono_couple]

Spring Break is over - we are back at school, and spring is here..   well, maybe not quite yet, but  it certainly is just around the corner.    I talked with one of the guys at Lowes yesterday.    He gave me his email address  so I sent my  materials list to him last night, and he promptly returned my email with a quote..   This makes the whole thing much more real       I had walked through Lowe's two weeks ago and noted all of the prices,  and the quote looks reasonable -  just under a 10% discount.    I will probably stop in tomorrow and sign the order..  The only issue is that I will want to pick up the items over a 2 week period.. sometimes they don't like that..  hopefully, it won't be an issue..    I know that some folks here are really interested in the actual cost to build..   after  I get moving, I will share the expenses..    Overall, I am shooting for something around  6k  for the whole project..  but I have been known to be wildly optimistic in the 

At this point, the quote from lowes is just to get things weather tight..  it does not include  interior or exterior finish...  I will probably use a local mill for those items..   

[North Sask]

their plan is to lay out a perimeter that is  1 foot longer and 1 foot wider than your building, using 6x6 PT posts.   and then filling in the interior with crushed stone..   their sheds then simply rest on the stone..     I gather that they have reasonable success with the sheds remaining level. 

so, the obvious question...  would this work for my tiny house?   

Looking forward to seeing this project take shape. I have enjoyed browsing through your first project.

Regarding your foundation question, it depends on a number of factors. The two main concerns would be bearing capacity and frost heave. Since you are building such a small structure I think it would be safe to assume it will be fine for bearing capacity. Here are my reasons: A pretty marginal quality soil can support 1500 psf and a poor quality soil should support 1000 psf. I think those values/units are correct. I am not used to speaking American.    Your skids will not rest directly on the soil. They will be sitting on a foundation of crushed rock. The interlocking particles will spread or distribute the load from the small house across a wider area (picture a trapezoidal load distribution). The thicker your gravel pad, the wider the load will be distributed. When preparing your gravel pad, it would be best to place it in 6" layers and compact each layer. You should also use a well-graded gravel (broad range of particle sizes) rather than a crushed rock that is all one size (as would be used for landscaping applications). The well-graded gravel will have better particle interlock.

Now for frost heave. This is very site dependent. You need a combo of water, temperature and poor soil to experience frost heave (just like the fire triangle  ). If you have no water (i.e., your site is very well graded or well drained) you have no frost heave. If your site never freezes, obviously no frost heave (you can also prevent frost penetration by using insulation). I don't know much about the Poconos but when I Googled it there were pictures of ski resorts - so I am guessing it freezes. The last ingredient is the soil. Soil with a high silt content is enemy number one in the battle against frost heave. Gravel and sand are not very frost heave susceptible because they drain well (no water). Low permeability clay generally will not heave because water is "trapped" within the clay and it cannot feed the growth of the frost lenses. Most soils are a mix of the four main soil types (gravel, sand, silt, clay). If there is any amount of silt in the mix, you could experience movement (unless you control one of the other two factors).

Will a bit of seasonal frost heave matter for your house? You indicated that you would be mainly using it during the busy times at the orchard (i.e., it is not a continuously occupied dwelling) so I would say probably not. Also, frost heave wreaks havoc on utilities that are connected to the house. You will have no plumbing, so that is not a concern. I'm not sure how you plan to connect your power. If you use a mast with overhead lines you don't need to worry. Even buried conduit/wire should be able to handle a bit of seasonal movement.

I sure used a lot words to say "yes, I think this should work fine for your small house."

[pocono_couple]

wow,  thanks for taking the time to respond ...  lot's of good thoughts!     I am going to have to read through them a few times       The shed that I built  here at the house is on  4x6 skids which are sitting directly on the ground.     I notice that the door sticks a bit in the winter, but really no issues with the shed.   On the other hand,  one of the concrete piers that i put in for my deck - 42" deep  -  heaved quite a bit this winter..   this is the first time that i had a problem, and i have not  measured just how much it raised, but it is noticeable..   and we heard it creaking in the middle of the night when it dipped below zero!    we will see about a solution once all of the frost has disappeared. 

we were just down at the orchard today, discussing a suitable site.    And,  if all goes according to plan, we will begin building on Wednesday of this week     I was holding off posting until i have some more pics to share..    thanks again for the info!  jt

[North Sask]

one of the concrete piers that i put in for my deck - 42" deep  -  heaved quite a bit this winter..   this is the first time that i had a problem, and i have not  measured just how much it raised, but it is noticeable..   and we heard it creaking in the middle of the night when it dipped below zero!    we will see about a solution once all of the frost has disappeared. 

Can you give some further detail on your "concrete piers"? Did you dig a hole, put in a sonotube, fill with concrete, and then backfill the hole?

[pocono_couple]

 the piers are  sono tubes   10 inch  made a pad at the bottom and then put the tube down..   the hole was 42" below grade..   later backfilled with  the same material that came out  of the hole....

[North Sask]

made a pad at the bottom and then put the tube down..   

Last question: This pad, is it a gravel pad or did you pour a concrete pad with rebar sticking out that would later be enveloped by the pier?