Author Topic: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY  (Read 60973 times)

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Offline NathanS

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #125 on: September 16, 2016, 04:05:21 PM »
Wow, lifetime warranty. That is really worth something.

Yeah Cabot's got my recommendation after that. The can does kind of say not to use the primer before oil stain, so they could have just said we didn't follow directions.

The saw is actually a brushless motor, so that is not the problem. The manager just called my wife back, they are going to ship us a new saw. That is a huge relief. She has more of a backbone on this stuff than me, I probably would have given up after the first rep blew me off.

Jig for dropping the fascia into place. The C clamp acts as the first resting point. Can never have too many clamps.


Both eaves done.. this is the worst of it. Constantly leaning out to move clamps and boards that act as a 'stop' for the sheathing. Right at the end I pinched a nerve or something in my rib from leaning on it so much. Not to mention I was leaning on blocking cut at a 30 degree angle to allow for a 2" vent channel. Now I can slide the boards out there and rest them on the one below. The sheathing I am using is T&G, which means I don't need to use the H clips. Also wondering if, like floors, the T&G makes it as though I am actually blocking every joint in the sheathing. Should make for a strong roof, especially @ 16OC.





I love the generous overhang. It was a lot of extra work but it should really go a long way to protecting the house from the elements. I think that it makes houses look a lot nicer too.

Before any more sheathing I want to put on the drip edge and the first roll of ice and water shield. Planning to do 2 strips of the ice dam stuff. Had the metal roof delivered today.

Offline Redoverfarm

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #126 on: September 16, 2016, 04:31:28 PM »
Good news on the saw.  Hopefully you just got one that was built on Friday evening or Monday morning.   ;)

On the sheeting overhang I am sure you measured & figured twice but sometimes a little extra is too much.  Meaning with the facia board and drip edge you don't want it too long or the water will overshoot the gutter if you are installing some.

Offline NathanS

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #127 on: September 16, 2016, 04:46:40 PM »
The sheathing doesn't hang out beyond the fascia at all. That's what you mean right? If anything, the sheathing is actually a little short of the end of the fascia.

I am not going to have time to do a gutter this year. I am a little on the fence about it. I kind of want to watch the bottom of the siding to see if I am getting splash back, if so, I think it's time for a gutter. Seems like in my climate there is a big debate about gutters. Some people say they're a problem with all the snow.

Offline Redoverfarm

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #128 on: September 16, 2016, 04:53:52 PM »
I had always heard that 1/2-5/8" was adequate with a drip edge.  Just make sure the water will make it past the facia face.  Yes gutters can be a problem in snow regions but for people that have basements it a must.  I put ice guards on mine to keep the sliding snow from tearing the gutters off.

Offline NathanS

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #129 on: September 16, 2016, 05:08:46 PM »
Eave trim came with the roof I ordered. I am not sure how far the drip edge sticks out, but I was just planning to install the trim itself flush with the fascia.

They actually suggest screwing the eave trim into the fascia.

Just planning to follow the instruction book. We technically got the exposed eave trim, with a cleat to install the standing seam panels concealed at the eave. I was thinking about not screwing the eave trim into the fascia at all, and if it actually does get rickety in a storm deal with it then.




Offline Don_P

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #130 on: September 17, 2016, 06:17:28 AM »
Did you get the eave trim (exposed) or drip edge trim with cleats (concealed). The concealed method works good with standing seam. It does take longer at the bottom edge but not bad. Look around at existing work, on the bottom edge of the standing seams we usually bend a tab of the outer standing seam over the end of the completed seam to hide that edge and the sealant. That tab will, present itself, as you snip the metal to form the bottom bend around the drip edge. A couple more snips and you'll have that end cap. The bottom rake/eave corner is where the wind gets to most roof materials first.

Offline NathanS

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #131 on: September 17, 2016, 03:16:01 PM »
I have an offset cleat only for the the standing seam panels. The eave trim is the exposed fastener type, but I was thinking to not screw it to the fascia. A professional roofer did a bunch of videos for this panel company, and he didn't fasten the eave trim to the fascia.. not sure if you have an opinion on that. This kind of stuff is really hard to explain by text.

I understand what you're saying about bending  the extra edge of the seam to conceal that opening.

I figure at the least I can always screw it in next year if it's taking a beating. On my shed, I never fastened the eave trim or gable trim to the fascia/fly rafter. They haven't moved or bent at all..

Trying to summarize my plan at the eave - it is not quite like either picture I posted. I have a cleat that will allow me to install the panels in the concealed fastener method. The eave trim is the same as the exposed fastener picture, but I was thinking about deviating from that in NOT screwing the trim into the fascia, and only screwing it into the the roof sheathing.


Was really windy today, but my wife and I were able to move all 16 remaining full panels into the attic so they can just be slid out onto the roof once the weather is nice. It went WAY faster and more easy with her. One of those jobs that is way way way more than twice the work alone. Sliding the sheathing out onto the roof is not bad, and mostly goes as well alone as with a second person. Also I don't need to be setting up any more jigs to hold the sheathing in place, which is great. The exception to that being that towards the end I'm going to ahve to nail some 2x4s in out there and slide a bunch of sheets out at once before finally closing the roof up. I am not dragging any sheets out over the eave. That would be a real pain.

Also I spoke with my neighbor and he is letting me borrow his scaffolding. He has 5 sets. Really awesome.

Offline Don_P

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #132 on: September 17, 2016, 04:37:03 PM »
There ya go. Plenty of guys around here have found the best of both worlds is if I own the scaffold  :D. We all loan scaffold around the neighborhood to whoever needs it at the moment. I've had 3 other guys stuff and mine set up at once before. A couple of bucks left the job yesterday to put up a sign over the weekend.

I've omitted fascia screws before on those kinds of trims and gotten away with it. In the big wind, who knows. It gives you more gutter options if it isn't screwed yet.

I can usually bring the upper rows of the roof with me to the point that I only need to get a few sheets out at the end. I usually just spike them to the roof with a 16 into the framing till I need them.

Offline dablack

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #133 on: September 19, 2016, 05:24:27 AM »
That is great news on the scaffold.  I'm going to be ordering mine before too long. 

House is looking great!

Austin

Offline NathanS

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #134 on: September 20, 2016, 03:41:07 PM »
Thanks Austin. Yes, it is awesome to not have to buy or rent scaffolding. These kind of costs can really creep up. A good 28' ladder, $300. Quality ladder stabilizer/standoff $85. Ladder roof hooks, $50. Didn't need em, but the feet levelers can run $100.

Tools can be pretty expensive, and very frustrating when they don't work well. I also just ordered a ton of metal/tin tools for installing the roof. Left and right hand snips, $35. Duckbill snips $33. Seaming tool $30. Pop Rivet gun $35. Turbo shears (drill attachment) $50. Well, the list goes on. But as much as possible I am getting made in USA stuff.  A couple things are Taiwan because I just had trouble justifying certain items that will likely be one time, or not many time, use.

I was in a pinch for some 8d nails, I had buy Grip Rite - but get this they had a couple boxes made in the USA. And the quality is fantastic.

I took a few days off, but put on the first course of ice and water shield on the north side of the roof today. Still getting some sun hitting there, which is good. That stuff would have gone on easier with a second person. I wound up with a few wrinkles. One of them I think I'm actually going to cut out and patch. I can't imagine anything would telegraph through the metal roof, though.

After that I put on the second course of sheathing on the north side. That went well, and I have to say T&G is actually way easier on a roof than on a floor.. 'cause gravity.

Also I finally tried out the zip tape, I went ahead and taped the seams under the ice and water shield. That stuff was actually a pleasure to work with. Because it is pressure activated you can lightly tack the start of the strip, then pull it to length and get it squared up, then go back and adjust where you started.

Offline NathanS

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #135 on: September 22, 2016, 02:38:40 PM »
Some overdue pics, kept for getting the camera and the wife is out of town with the smartphone. The flippy phone isn't much of a camera.

The trick with the ice and water shield (alone) is probably a max length of 14 - 16 feet. Snap a chalk line, then get one edge lined up on the chalk line, and tack it in place with an awl, then unroll it with the backing still on, and at the other edge get everything tight and as line up as you can, then start peeling the top half starting there, work way back to awl and you have just peeled something with no lines in it.






Offline NathanS

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #136 on: September 25, 2016, 03:54:38 PM »
More progress. The rest of the sheathing should be a victory lap, and not much tape to put on. Should be on schedule to start the metal this week. Feels really good. I actually have grown to enjoy being out on the roof. It is interesting the way building a house prepares you for the next step. Laying the block gives you the muscle for the walls, the walls and floors get you ready for the tougher framing of rafters, being in the attic gets you acclimated to being up high.

I try to call it like it I see it on all the materials and tools I've been using. I have been really impressed with Huber products. The roof is T&G zip system and has been great to work with. T&G is actually a lot easier to work with on a roof than a floor. And frankly I'm glad I wasn't fiddling with those H clips up there. The tape has been easy to put on. Way easier than tar paper anyways. It's also a fantastic surface to walk on out there, you can be fairly certain you aren't going anywhere. The ice and water shield is also a good surface to walk on. The Ice and water shield is a butyl based adhesive, so we terminated the top edge with the acrylic based zip tape. Butyl based tape should always terminate with acrylic.

Another note, the zip system wall sheathing has a slightly oval edge on the long side - which acts as your 1/8 inch spacer. So you can just rest one board on top of another instead of trying to use nails to get your space correct.

On top of all that it is warrantied for 6 months of exposure, and likely could handle a lot more than that based on some of the stuff I've read. The glue they use to manufacture the OSB must have come a long way from when people used to complain about the edges swelling after a single rain. Something to really think about when building a house yourself. If you're not done in time for winter the sheathing could handle an entire winter of exposure.




Offline ChugiakTinkerer

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #137 on: September 25, 2016, 06:04:33 PM »
Thanks for the thoughts on the Zip panels.  I've been thinking about using them ever since I learned that my local lumber yard stocks them.  Your eaves and rake look great, exactly what I want on my cabin.  I'm sure you mentioned before but what's the pitch on your roof?
My cabin build thread: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story

Offline NathanS

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #138 on: September 25, 2016, 06:14:54 PM »
The pitch is 7-12. That was a story unto itself. I even cut 4 rafters for 9-12 but as we were lifting them into place we realized that was too dangerous for us.

I'm going off memory for this, but 9-12 @ 20 foot span was about 7' (to the bottom of the ridge, 8' to the top) above the attic joists. Lifting a 2x12 that high from the joists was not fun. I have a thread for the shed I built last fall, and that was 9-12. That was not walkable at all with tar paper on it. I think you could shimmy around on the zip boards, but you would really need to have 2x4 nailed in all over to stand on. Don P said his walking limit is 8-12, and that sounds right on the money. 7-12 is very comfortable for me. I have spent hours out there and feel good about it. My wife and I both are always harnessed in, and the harness is always set up so that if you fall you don't drop over the eave. I drew out 6-12, 7-12 and 8-12 after feeling uncomfortable with the 9-12. Honestly, I chose 7-12 because it put the bottom of the ridge at shoulder height.

Some of this may change for a 1.5 story with a steep pitch because you can run a ladder right up along the roof from the ground. But again, the proper way to do a roof like that is with a beam, and getting that beam up there alone is a task.

Seriously, something I have learned with regard to design, is don't forget you have to install. I know I will manage, but I have a TON of 5' wide windows to put in soon. That is at least a 2 person job, whereas a 3' wide window you could probably solo.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2016, 06:30:50 PM by NathanS »

Offline pmichelsen

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #139 on: September 26, 2016, 07:37:30 AM »
The ice and water shield is also a good surface to walk on. The Ice and water shield is a butyl based adhesive, so we terminated the top edge with the acrylic based zip tape. Butyl based tape should always terminate with acrylic.

One thing I found while installing the Grace on my roof was that, it is very easy to manage and install when the temps are cool, but once the sun activates that adhesive, forget about it. And that goes for walking on it as well, once that stuff had baked in the sun for a bit and you tried to walk across it, it would slide around on you.

Offline dablack

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #140 on: September 26, 2016, 08:57:14 AM »
I couldn't walk around on my 8/12 pitch roof.  It freaked me right out!  Once I got the grace triflex (synthetic tar paper) up there, it was much better.  The triflex has way more grip than OSB and I could scoot around on as long as I was laying flat or on my side.  The jeans and the triflex really stuck!  One afternoon I was out on the roof and felt great.  I had put down two courses of the triflex and was sitting on those while I worked on the 3rd.  The sun got low and the roof got a little dewy up there.  Under where I was sitting was dry but then I scooted over!  Opps!  Found the end of my rope with a quickness!  I'm always tied off so I can't slide off the roof.  It was too slick for my tennis shoes too.  I had to pull myself up with the rope. 

Just cause you can walk on a 9/12 roof with asphalt shingles on there doesn't mean you can walk on a 8/12 roof when you are building it!  Next one I build (if ever) will be 7/12. 

Offline Don_P

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #141 on: September 26, 2016, 10:14:06 AM »
Really, there is no safe pitch... you're on a roof. The onlt thing I can say about walkability is all that matters is the conditions in that spot at that moment, one step away can be sawdust, spilled chalk, water or just a glazed spot. I've walked the osb fine on an 8/12, stepped onto the mineralized ice and water and was drifting on the rolling granules, I was really wishing I had an old foam cushion about then.

Offline pmichelsen

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #142 on: September 26, 2016, 01:38:13 PM »
One thing that (even though I made fun of him for buying it) really came in handy...my buddy had one of the little Milwaukee electric blowers that we frequently used to "remove the ball bearings" from the roof.

Offline NathanS

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #143 on: September 26, 2016, 02:42:06 PM »
Yeah, I had to trim a few panels when they were on the roof - I worked from the outside in, and found myself an 1/8th to 1/4 off a few times. The sawdust is a real danger, ball bearings is a good way of putting it. A leaf blower is a good idea.

My number one priority is safety when up there. Everything else is secondary, when I'm nailing a sheet in I am thinking about where my knees and feet are, and making sure I don't have slack in the harness.

Don I can't imagine sliding down the roof knowing I'm headed for the ground. I'm guessing you have fallen more than once. It seems like people I've talked to do that do it for a living have all fallen. Not so much if, but when.

Took today off, extremely windy, a big storm is moving through pretty much the whole east coast. I got a chance to try folding one of the standing seam panels - I had a 3 foot sample piece from before we placed our order. Came out good and was easy to do.

I think I will actually install the final strip of sheathing as I am putting the metal down, that way I have easy access to the attic the whole time, and I can tie off to ridge/rafter instead of needing to screw the roof anchor in and out a bunch of times. I have thought about installing a permanent stainless steel roof anchor at the ridge. It would poke out under the Z-trim at the ridge.

One of these that bridged ridge..for some reason all that I can find is zinc coated rings though..
https://www.amazon.com/Miller-Honeywell-RA40-Permanent-Stainless/dp/B000LESLR4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1474926480&sr=8-1&keywords=stainless+steel+roof+anchor

Offline NathanS

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #144 on: September 29, 2016, 06:36:23 AM »
I'm lucky that a professional roofer made a bunch of videos detailing how he installs the roof we are using. He also did videos directly for ABC metal roof on youtube if anyone else wants more resources.

This is the greatest tip ever - how he joins eave trim - or really this works with any piece of metal that has a hem/drip edge in it. Skip to 1 min 56 seconds.



From ground level it is really hard to even see a seam. On my shed I had just overlapped panels, and it's fine, but not nearly as clean as this.

We were able to install all the eave trim, and the cleat at the bottom of the roof that the standing seam panels fold under. We also put in one panel just so we could see how it looks. We are really happy with it. Unfortunately, I didn't notice until just now we don't have the proper fasteners for the rake trim. Sales lady said they should be here today or tomorrow. I wanted to install the rake before I put on a bunch of panels so I had good access with my harness on.

The cleat metal was unbelievably floppy. literally impossible to even pick it up without it folding on itself, then imagine carrying it up a ladder. It got nice and bent up, but it should still work just fine at holding down the 16" wide panels at the eave.

Offline NathanS

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #145 on: October 01, 2016, 03:11:35 PM »
Had some better weather today and got a bunch of panels and rake trim up. Love how it is turning out.. hard to take pictures that do it justice. Really happy we spent the extra money on the standing seam. The cleat on the bottom is a little fussy but worth it to have no exposed fasteners on the eave.

Very rewarding to see a little bit of the final product. The burnished slate roof color goes really well with the blue trim.









Found a couple pics from up on the roof.. my wife is usually the one taking those, as I don't normally bring my camera up there with me.

« Last Edit: October 01, 2016, 03:45:11 PM by NathanS »

Offline Redoverfarm

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #146 on: October 01, 2016, 04:03:20 PM »
Good choice on the color.  I put that up as well.  Sort of a break from the red.

Offline NathanS

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #147 on: October 07, 2016, 03:41:40 PM »
Thanks Redover. Yeah not sure how green and red became stock metal roof colors? We love the burnished slate.

Making progress on the panels. The cleat at the bottom that you put the folded panel under has been a bear a few times. I have gradually increased my bag of tricks, and it seems to be going well every time now. My wife has been on the roof screwing in every panel on 12" centers. We are exactly at the half way mark at 29 panels.. she has been a beast. This is not a one person job. I carry the panel up the ladder, and we attach a C clamp at the top so she can help pull it up. I get the cleat adjusted just right and we hit the seam down with our palms. She screws the whole hidden edge in. Awesome. Can't imagine how much more work this would be if we couldn't walk the roof. Very happy with 7 12 pitch.

My parents came up and we have been able to get a ton of sheathing up because of it.

On the south side the next panels will have the ice/water guard/flashing for the stove pipe. So that will go a little slower, but I think I have a good plan. Shingle style, and the bottom lip of the panel that rests on top of the standing seam will get the "Z Trim" and appropriate mastic tape. Basically going to treat the bottom edge like you treat the ridge.

Oh and we had our excavator out - he did all the grading and septic in one day. We have a nice big level area on the south side of the house with just one step down to earth. Something we really wanted.







The ridge is getting pop rivets. They are invisible from the ground.

Offline NathanS

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #148 on: October 08, 2016, 11:34:31 AM »
Starting to block up the sheathing edges on the first floor now too. We are going to tape up the zip, and I am intending to just do the siding in the spring so I don't rush it. Too many important details.

One thing I'm thinking about - the big balcony opening on the second floor is about 9' 1" wide - framed with two trimmers and two king studs. Roof length is about 14'. We have about 4.5' of header bearing on that built up post, and really add in another foot from the other side to be conservative. 14 x 5.5 x 50lb snow load and we are close to 4000 lb of snow on each post for design reasons. Not including dead load there.

I know I need to put posts on the first floor underneath to help carry that load. Do I need to calculate all this out or is there a prescriptive table? It seems like 3 studs would get the job done. Not sure if I should do 4 and be done with it. Or stop being lazy and get out the calculator.

Offline Don_P

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Re: 20x34 2-story universal in upstate NY
« Reply #149 on: October 08, 2016, 01:04:54 PM »
The IRC girder tables, chapter 5 I think, give number of jacks under a girder or header that will work up to max stud height. That will probably be one king and 2 jacks, 3 ply. Doubling the king is good though. I think there is more in both the WFCM and WSDD manuals. At a built up 6x6, I'm not worried about buckling, I suspect a 3 ply would be more than fine below but once you ask, your mind is saying something, it would be worth checking. WSDD I believe has column load tables as well. There is a column calc on my site and I think medeek has one too