Author Topic: Plans Change, and now I'm starting with a 12 X 12  (Read 107800 times)

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Offline JavaMan

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Re: Plans Change, and now I'm starting with a 12 X 12
« Reply #125 on: July 06, 2011, 10:12:36 AM »
Karl ...

I was thinking about what you said, and I think you may have misunderstood what I was talking about when I mentioned overlapping the rafters at the top.

I meant something like this:



With the gusset plate at the top.

Any thoughts on that? (pardon my bad drawing skillz, I'm at work and all I have is MS Paint)

Offline MountainDon

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Re: Plans Change, and now I'm starting with a 12 X 12
« Reply #126 on: July 07, 2011, 05:04:32 PM »
That would be better described as a butt joint than an overlap if I understand what you mean. Lay one 2x flat on the floor and butt the other one against the end. Plywood gusset plate nailed to each side. Probably best to lay it out on the subfloor and nail in a few protruding nails, or nail down guide blocks to help hold things in place so they all come out the same. Make a test set first of course and test fit from one end of the structure to the other.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time and money to fix it?

Offline JavaMan

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Re: Plans Change, and now I'm starting with a 12 X 12
« Reply #127 on: July 08, 2011, 06:33:48 AM »
That would be better described as a butt joint than an overlap if I understand what you mean. Lay one 2x flat on the floor and butt the other one against the end. Plywood gusset plate nailed to each side. Probably best to lay it out on the subfloor and nail in a few protruding nails, or nail down guide blocks to help hold things in place so they all come out the same. Make a test set first of course and test fit from one end of the structure to the other.

Don,

Now that you say it, I know you're right - both boards are in the same "plane" (so to speak), rather the butt ends "overlap" - as you said they butt up to each other.

It sounds like you don't see a problem with doing it this way?  I just think it would be easier to simply make certain they are square and gusset them in a jig (like you suggested, guide blocks on the floor, etc...)

Thanks for the feedback and getting my descriptions straightened out!

Offline JavaMan

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Re: Plans Change, and now I'm starting with a 12 X 12
« Reply #128 on: July 26, 2011, 06:54:50 AM »
Well, once again, "The best laid plans... "

I was looking forward to heading up to the property this coming weekend - having saved enough to get things pretty well finished and dried in ... but the fly in the ointment that I didn't count on was that when I went "direct" with my employer that health insurance wouldn't kick in for a month (meaning July without insurance), so we've had to use some of that cash to pay for a month of Cobra coverage (over $1000 for a month of insurance that - knock on wood - we aren't going to use)

Then again, if I'd gone up there without insurance, I probably would have done something requiring multiple thousands of dollars in treatment  d*

So, with all that is going on in August - it looks like it might be September ... altho, there is at least one weekend in August when Beautiful and the kids will be in Oregon visiting her mom, so if I can recover the building fund by then, I'm going to take off and head up then!

I just worry that the longer it goes, the more I will try to get done - and it's getting downright hot up there now days, and I won't have but a weekend (maybe + 1 day if I can talk the boss into it).  Which means I'll probably work way too hard  :o (but there's no way I can work as hard as Ol'Jarhead!  ;D)

Offline OlJarhead

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Re: Plans Change, and now I'm starting with a 12 X 12
« Reply #129 on: July 27, 2011, 06:13:33 AM »
Aw Java!  I'm sorry to hear of the troubles!  It must be tough but hang in there and stick to your guns.  You'll make it up there again soon I'm sure!  Think positive!

And don't try working hard as me!  :o You'll just hurt like me then too! lol  d*

Offline JavaMan

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Re: Plans Change, and now I'm starting with a 12 X 12
« Reply #130 on: July 27, 2011, 06:55:58 AM »
Oh, I know I'll get up there... At least since they won't take out for insurance at the new place for this check yet (and retirement) I'll have an extra $100 or so, which can get dumped back in the savings  :D  So I'll be almost to where I wanted to be.  Which means that I should have the funds together to finish it by mid to end of August ... I think that part of the problem is having kids at home yet during the summer.  They have so much going on that there isn't much time for anything else.

Guess that means that September/October will be busy.  I am still hoping for August sometime, tho.  Beautiful is going to see her mom with the kids in August and since I don't have any Vacation coming, I can choose to run down there (a 6+ hour drive) or run to the property (a 4.5 hour drive) ... Wish the truck got better gas mileage, tho.  I'm looking into a performance chip for it to see if I get better mileage and towing ability (not that my trailer is huge, but I might want to tow something bigger someday).

As for working as hard as you - I think that might be a bit impossible.  From what I can tell, no one works as hard as you!    :o

Offline JavaMan

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Re: Plans Change, and now I'm starting with a 12 X 12
« Reply #131 on: December 07, 2011, 08:08:06 AM »
Ah, the vagaries of life.

Here it is December and my last post was July! ::)

But after a non-productive year, I have decided that I'm just not going to let it get to me.  And I am planning next year already.

I figure to have the place done (define done, j... Ok, done is roof on, loft floored, completely enclosed and windows/doors in, how's that?) ... done in three more trips.  First trip will be as soon as I can get up there after the snow is out.  When is that going to be? I have to admit, I don't really know.  Sometime in early May, I hope.  One or two trips in May, a trip in June and it should be "Done".

On the list of things to do after that are:
1. Cut a drive up to the top of my hill, where I plan to build the actual cabin, so I can get supplies up there.  This will require a bulldozer or excavator.  And that might be a bit of a hurdle to get over.   I'll have to rent one, but delivery will be a pain.

2. Buy a saw mill.  I am going to need a bunch of lumber for the actual cabin, and I plan to also make an attempt to mill my own "D" profile logs, so a mill will come in handy.

3. Fell some trees in preparation for the mill (probably before I actually buy the mill) and start de-barking them.

4. Dig the hole for the basement/foundation of the cabin.


The long range plan for the year is to get the cabin foundation/basement completed with the floor over it.  I say "long range" because it looks like the schedule for this will run to the end of November or early December if the snow allows.  Then I also want to allow for some hunt time up there, too. ;D


Offline JavaMan

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Re: Plans Change, and now I'm starting with a 12 X 12
« Reply #132 on: January 22, 2012, 10:46:21 AM »
Well, Christmas has come and gone.  By sister gave me a book on my amazon wish list, "Compact Cabins: Simple Living in 1000 Square Feet or Less; 62 Plans for Camps, Cottages, Lake Houses, and Other Getaways".  Wile none of the designs in the book really fit my needs, I am getting a few ideas.  The "modular" section is interesting - especially since it uses 12X12 "modules" as the basis.

My biggest concern about most of the other designs is that they seem to have the bathroom opening right into the kitchen.  I can't seem to think but that would put some unsavory smells in the kitchen area - especially in such a small space.

Anyway, I am looking forward to getting up to the place this spring, as early as possible and finishing up my 12X12 so I can begin the "real" place in earnest.  The original design calls for 18X28, but I'm beginning to think of pushing that out by 2 feet in each direction to 20X30.  I need to get up there and fall some trees and begin the drying and striping of bark so that I have logs to begin building with once the foundation and basement are done.

It's going to be a busy couple years, I hope.

Offline JavaMan

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Re: Plans Change, and now I'm starting with a 12 X 12
« Reply #133 on: January 22, 2012, 11:16:08 AM »
Thought it was finally time to change the avatar to something a bit more personal. 

<-- me, at the property the weekend of Nov 12th, 2009

Offline MikeOnBike

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Re: Plans Change, and now I'm starting with a 12 X 12
« Reply #134 on: January 23, 2012, 02:47:19 PM »

My biggest concern about most of the other designs is that they seem to have the bathroom opening right into the kitchen.  I can't seem to think but that would put some unsavory smells in the kitchen area - especially in such a small space.


We will be putting our bathroom and kitchen on a shared wall so we can minimize the plumbing that we have to drain each time we leave during the freezing months.  I plan to slope all of the lines so they will self drain when the faucets and supply are opened.  I think if there is a smell problem it might be all over a small cabin.

We were going to start with a 20x32 but with delays and life getting in the way we now have a 10x12 and 10x14 at two different locations on the property and plans to start the 20x32 in a couple of years.

Offline JavaMan

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Re: Plans Change, and now I'm starting with a 12 X 12
« Reply #135 on: January 23, 2012, 06:06:06 PM »
We will be putting our bathroom and kitchen on a shared wall so we can minimize the plumbing that we have to drain each time we leave during the freezing months.  I plan to slope all of the lines so they will self drain when the faucets and supply are opened.  I think if there is a smell problem it might be all over a small cabin.

We were going to start with a 20x32 but with delays and life getting in the way we now have a 10x12 and 10x14 at two different locations on the property and plans to start the 20x32 in a couple of years.

Yup, that's pretty much what happened to me.  Got tired of waiting and started building.  Hopefully will finish this one up this summer and still have some time to start the "real" cabin.  Now that design just underwent a design change today which is going to be called release candidate 247 ...  d*

I was just thinking today that I am having difficulty sitting here waiting for the snow to go out up there... and here it is only January! :(

Offline JavaMan

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Re: Plans Change, and now I'm starting with a 12 X 12
« Reply #136 on: April 16, 2012, 12:32:01 PM »
I don't know how far down the list this was when I dredged it up... I had to go to one of my posts in Ol' Jarheads thread to find a link to it!  :o ???

So, it's on the calendar for May 16th ... and the weather at the pass seems to be holding - that is the snow is retreating so that in a month I think I might be able to make it up to the property. I certainly hope so - I'll have a trailerful of roof rafter/trusses and some other lumber with me, and I'd hate to haul it all that way and then have to haul it back home again!

I've scheduled two full days of vacation, too, so I will be leaving from the office sometime on Wed afternoon, hoping to make it up there before dark.  And then I have to see what shape the floor is in as I'm sure it's been exposed to the weather for nearly 2 years now.  If it needs replacing, that will be the first thing I do, then on to the loft floor, and then the roofing job.

I am hoping to get the trusses that I plan on building this weekend at home, into place at the very least.  If I can get the sheathing on, too, that would be great!

While all this is going on, I hope to be able to take a few breaks and simply enjoy being there.  Also, one morning I'm going to go down to the diner next to the lumber yard and splurge on a chicken fried steak and eggs breakfast.  I only want to do that once - after all, we've been dieting for the last 5 weeks and I've managed to lose 30 pounds (as of this morning), so by the time I get there, I figure I'll have lost another 20 or so, and I don't want to lose the progress and find the weight I've lost again.

Of course, I'm getting itchy to get up there and get to work!  It's been far too long since my last trip.  I've already cleared it with the boss (and my job), for a couple additional weekends before we head out for family vacation the first week of July!

This weekend I buy lumber and start building the trusses. I built a small archery target stand with a roof that was a scaled down version of the roof up there, and used it as a prototype or "Proof of concept" build.  It went well, and I learned a few things that could cause me issues.  So I think I have all the "bugs" worked out of it.

I've been following most of the others in the Okanogan area up there, and you all (especially OJH) are making me wish I could get into the property - trying to budget for a snowmobile for this coming winter - and then I'll be all set... ;D

Offline OlJarhead

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Re: Plans Change, and now I'm starting with a 12 X 12
« Reply #137 on: April 16, 2012, 08:45:25 PM »
Awesome news!  Who knows, maybe the Roadwarrior and I will be in the AO when you are!?

If we are, perhaps I'll have to drop in for a visit...not sure yet which weekend though, so don't hold your breath just yet!

Cheers
Erik

Offline JavaMan

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Re: Plans Change, and now I'm starting with a 12 X 12
« Reply #138 on: April 18, 2012, 11:52:38 AM »
Awesome news!  Who knows, maybe the Roadwarrior and I will be in the AO when you are!?

If we are, perhaps I'll have to drop in for a visit...not sure yet which weekend though, so don't hold your breath just yet!

Cheers
Erik
That would be great, OJH!  I'd love to have you up to the place - or at least head down to the bar & grill for a burger or something on your way past.

I am getting stoked, and I can't believe it's still 4 weeks away! :-[  But I've got the budget planned, and I'm buying supplies this weekend.  Then I'll start prepping for what needs to be done, and be ready to roll that Wed afternoon out of the office. :)

I want to try to get the loft floor put in (which will also entail replacing the loft floor joists) and then get the roof rafters up - at the very least. (I tend to over-estimate what I can get done, but I'm going to try!) I'd love to get the roof sheathing on, but that's where the over-estimation might be.

I'm working out, in my head at least, how I'm going to do it all, so we'll see.

It's been far too long!

Offline JavaMan

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Re: Plans Change, and now I'm starting with a 12 X 12
« Reply #139 on: April 27, 2012, 06:01:21 AM »
Starting to accumulate the items for the trip...

I've arranged a flatbed trailer to take pre-assembled roof trusses up to the property.  I'm also going to take a number of sheets of OSB for sheathing.  I've got my strong-ties, and a few other things.  Ran the compressor the other day, too and it's working fine.  I think I need to have some extra compressor oil with me, tho.  And I need to dig out the generator and change the oil (It's never been changed, and I've had it for about 7 years! :o )

Then, of course, there is the mes of tools, and other camping stuff (food, etc...) that I need to get organized.

I was looking at longer ladders (since I'm going to be doing the roof) and had decided on a Werner, multi-position 26' ladder... from Lowe's.  On a whim I searched for a multi-position ladder (thinking a knock-off) on Amazon and up popped the Werner I was going to get from Lowes (which they didn't have in stock) for $60 less, and Prime shipping (free second day).  I thought, what a deal! Ordered it Wednesday, and it arrived yesterday!  That $70/year for prime sure paid off this time!

My son is going to be having his b'day party - a total of 3 teenage boys, playing video games... I wonder if I can harness some of that energy to help with some of this "heavy lifting" (yeah, and pigs can fly, too  ::) )

It's going to be a busy weekend at home ... but I'm looking forward to it. 

Offline JavaMan

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Re: Plans Change, and now I'm starting with a 12 X 12
« Reply #140 on: April 30, 2012, 07:32:53 AM »
Well, here's what I'm prepping to take up there when I finally head up.



I'm wondering if the gusset needs to be larger?  The top plate will be about a foot up from the bottom of the rafter.

It's all tied together with about 25 nails per side, and the gussets are made from 19/32 ply

Offline MountainDon

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Re: Plans Change, and now I'm starting with a 12 X 12
« Reply #141 on: April 30, 2012, 09:07:47 AM »
Well, that gusset is not going to do much more than hold the upper ends of the rafters together. They are doing the job of a collar tie. Collar ties are spec'd at 1x4 lumber minimum; I would expect most inspectors would accept those as fine for collar ties if there are one on each side.

Collar ties don't ever really take the place of rafter ties though.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time and money to fix it?

Offline JavaMan

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Re: Plans Change, and now I'm starting with a 12 X 12
« Reply #142 on: April 30, 2012, 09:31:04 AM »
Well, that gusset is not going to do much more than hold the upper ends of the rafters together. They are doing the job of a collar tie. Collar ties are spec'd at 1x4 lumber minimum; I would expect most inspectors would accept those as fine for collar ties if there are one on each side.

Collar ties don't ever really take the place of rafter ties though.

Well, what I'm hoping is that once in place, I can put the sheathing up there and be on it myself while putting the felt and roofing on.  Then, of course, it needs to hold the snow in the winter.

Ok, so I just went and looked to make sure I understood what you meant by collar tie and rafter tie...  So what I'll wind up with is something like this:



The "rafter tie" is about 18" down from the actual rafter.   Had I thought about it before building to what I have now, I would have extended the loft floor joists out to where the roof rafters would meet them, effectively creating a rafter tie at that point.  But I wasn't thinking  d* about that at the time.  I was going to do a ridge board and simply set the rafters on the top plate.

Well, sorta like I'm doing now, but without the ridge board complications. (not that it's that complicated, just easier on this scale, I think  d*)


Offline OlJarhead

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Re: Plans Change, and now I'm starting with a 12 X 12
« Reply #143 on: April 30, 2012, 09:32:56 AM »
The collar tie goes up in the top 3rd of the rafters...

Offline JavaMan

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Re: Plans Change, and now I'm starting with a 12 X 12
« Reply #144 on: April 30, 2012, 09:46:29 AM »
The collar tie goes up in the top 3rd of the rafters...

Yup, once I looked, I realized that's what Don meant when he said the plates would suffice as collar ties.  It seems to me that someplace in my thread here, we discussed the loft floor joists as "substituting" for rafter ties, and that for this particular application it would probably work.  So, that's what I'm going with on that one  ;) - even tho the rafter tie is supposed to be in the bottom 1/3 of the rafter.

Offline MountainDon

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Re: Plans Change, and now I'm starting with a 12 X 12
« Reply #145 on: April 30, 2012, 09:50:19 AM »
Collar tie vs rafter tie



I think this is my most frequently used image  :)

The only real "saving grace" is that the span is relatively small; that will hold the outward forces to lower levels. Not a good idea for larger spans.

Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time and money to fix it?

Offline JavaMan

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Re: Plans Change, and now I'm starting with a 12 X 12
« Reply #146 on: April 30, 2012, 10:15:25 AM »
Collar tie vs rafter tie



I think this is my most frequently used image  :)

The only real "saving grace" is that the span is relatively small; that will hold the outward forces to lower levels. Not a good idea for larger spans.

I found that image as well.  That's the one that clarified for me what you were talking about.

So, I'm hoping that the 16" - 18" (altho it might be more like 12" by the time I'm done putting 2x10" joists and 11/16 subfloor down in the loft) of the kneewall won't be a big issue at that point.  even though it's below the bottom 1/3 of the rafters.

Offline JavaMan

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Re: Plans Change, and now I'm starting with a 12 X 12
« Reply #147 on: May 04, 2012, 05:42:17 AM »
Last weekend I managed to put together 5 of the rafters. This weekend will be the remaining 5.  I need to get together with the friend that is lending me a flatbed trailer to tow them up there on, and start loading stuff.  I've made sure the compressor works and the next thing I need to do is go over the generator and see if it needs anything.  This will include starting it up and making sure it still "Gens"  :D

I figure the Genset and compressor will go into the back of the truck.  Most everything else will go on the trailer.

The biggest concern once I get up there is - will I have to replace the shed floor.  It's been exposed to the weather now for two years, and I fear the OSB is going to be a bit too soft in most places.  If so, I'll have a sawsall and cut it out and put in some support for the new and put in new stuff.  A bit more work, but I'd rather do that than fall through the floor! d*

I've been debating when to put the strong ties on the rafters.  Do it now with carful measuring, or tack them on the top plate where I want them and set the rafters in them then?  I am leaning toward installing them on the top plate first so that I can adjust the rafter/trusses as I go, rather than trying to force fit them.

I am beginning to get anxious to get up there.  Unfortunately there was snow on the mountain night before last and even tho it seems to be mostly gone (in the web cam at the pass about 4 miles from my place), I am concerned about those parts of the road in that are mostly shaded.  :( Praying for HOT weather the next week and a half.

The boss tells me our department is going on a field trip on the 16th ... Which is the day I'm leaving from the office.  I'm not sure how that will impact the time I get to leave, but with the longer days, I should be up there before dark regardless. :)

Offline JavaMan

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Re: Plans Change, and now I'm starting with a 12 X 12
« Reply #148 on: May 07, 2012, 10:51:54 AM »
New question for all the pundits here...  ;D

7/16, 19/32, or 23/32 for roof sheathing?

Pitch is 12/12.  I think I'm going to be going with steel (I found a source that is reasonably inexpensive).

I'm leaning towards the 19/32 myself.  Because it's thicker and therefore stiffer than the 7/16, but not as heavy as the 23/32.

Is this a good choice?

Offline MountainDon

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Re: Plans Change, and now I'm starting with a 12 X 12
« Reply #149 on: May 07, 2012, 11:20:50 AM »
Yes.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time and money to fix it?