Author Topic: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)  (Read 650634 times)

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Offline PA-Builder

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #125 on: November 07, 2009, 03:56:27 PM »
Doesn't sound like a problem to me.

If you want, you could scab a piece of 2x6 below the lower plate to give it a little more strength !

Offline OlJarhead

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #126 on: November 10, 2009, 08:17:37 PM »
So tired!  Just got in (4 1/2 drive back) and we managed to get the walls done (more on that later) and mostly sheeted.  We braced the walls (not enough I'm sure) and framed the bathroom in and then had to toss the tarp over and leave.

It's dark by 5PM so can't really work well past 4ish (cleanup takes time) and the boys aren't too willing to start when the sun comes up (snicker) and honestly, at 44 I'm finding it tougher to work in below freezing weather myself!  But we did get started today around 10AM and worked until 3PM then had to leave.

Yesterday was about noon to 3PM becuase the delivery was a little late (and I had to go find him becuase he can't follow directions) and Saturday was driving there while Sunday we framed a couple wall sections etc...it was a busy weekend and I'll post pics soon.

One note:  clamps are great for drawing wall sections together but NEVER frame the dang band joist before doing this (DOH!).

The long walls are plumb (in and out) but one is off square :(  I'm fretting over that a bit but hoping the 6" walls on such a small cabin may work in my favor (stronger).  Guess we'll find out.

Offline OlJarhead

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #127 on: November 12, 2009, 11:23:32 AM »

 d*

The Northwall Gap.

So we've been working hard and trying to build our cabin piecemeal (clearly not the way to go) and ran across a couple of issues:

1.  Being in a hurry hurts -- stop it -- but wait it might snow -- I'm going crazy here.

2.  If you frame a wall with a Band Joist in it's really hard to square the damn wall.  Don't do it without squaring the wall first.

I've thought about cutting the Band Joist out to fix the walls on the North side of the cabin since I can't get them plumb.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2010, 08:53:16 AM by OlJarhead »

Offline OlJarhead

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #128 on: November 12, 2009, 11:29:29 AM »


OK the South wall we actually built right I think except there was a gap between the two sections.  We were, however, able to tighten it flush with clamps and the result was a plumb wall in all directions :)  We felt good about it.

So, while I can keep the North wall plumb I cannot keep it square without cutting out the band joist -- which I fear might ruin the 2x10.

One thing I did notice was I goofed on the door and framed it at 30 1/2" -- oops  d* ??? I realized I'd marked the trimmer/cripple on the wrong side -- doh! -- and the king on the other side of it...so I will go back, cut that out and re-frame the door (easy enough).

One thing however, that I also realized was the 4 foot window under the 6 foot loft means you don't have a band joist nailed to a king stud at the 5-6 foot mark.  The window header is in there and some jack studs/cripples.  My solution?  I'm thinking of putting in a 2x8 header in the same location and then some small blocks (cripples) between the band joist and the header so the weight is transferred to the trimmer studs on either side of the window.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2010, 08:53:43 AM by OlJarhead »

Offline OlJarhead

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #129 on: November 12, 2009, 11:34:45 AM »
Load bearing walls and cantilevers:

OK, so I'm reading (read and you will succeed -- I was told) and I find a statement in a framing book that reads:  Floor joists for load bearing walls should not be framed more then 1/2" less then the width of the joist past the cantilever to prevent sheering of the floor when used as a load bearing wall.

Huh?

The little house plans call for a 2 foot overhang past the cantilever which is clearly a lot more then the 5 1/2" of floor joist when making a 2x6 floor and even twice what a 2x12's thickness is.

Is this becuase of the bracing?  Is what I read crazy?  Does it only apply to more then one floor?  Many questions -- and worries.

Please let me know your thoughts.
Thanks
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 07:33:13 PM by OlJarhead »

Offline MountainDon

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #130 on: November 12, 2009, 12:02:46 PM »
Last thing first   ::)

Don't worry about the floor joists overhanging the beams more than what the books say. Your joists are all one piece and are supporting a relatively low load compared to wider and taller structures. Something like that anyways.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time and money to fix it?

Offline MountainDon

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #131 on: November 12, 2009, 12:12:13 PM »
OK, I got it.  :-\   I was confused by a difference in terminology. "Band Joist"

I believe you are referring to those 2xsomethings that are notched into the wall studs at or above window header height.  :)   I think of them as Ledger Boards. A Band Joist to me is one of those 2xthings that run around the perimeter of the Floor Joists, also called a Rim Joist. There are probably other names or them in different parts of the country/world.

Yes it would have been easier to frame and square up the walls before those pieces were nailed in.

So, did I interpret things correctly or am I all wet?  ???

One more question. Is that Ledger Board supposed to stop there or go further. I think it is suposed to stop there at the window edge.  ???

Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time and money to fix it?

Offline MountainDon

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #132 on: November 12, 2009, 12:25:28 PM »
So it seems you can get that north wall plumb, not leaning into or out of the cabin, but it is not square, as in a 4x8 sheet overhangs or underhangs some o the wall stud when you try to line things up.

I bet those Ledgers are nailed in real good with the air nailer.  ;D  The best solution may be to give them a hard whack with a big hammer to loosen them a little. Use a block of scrap wood to try to keep from damaging the Ledger. Then use a metal cutting blade in a reciprocating saw to cut the nails between the Ledger and the wall stud. Remove the Ledger, square the wall, apply exterior sheathing and then re-install the Ledger.

I've done that a few times. A nice long metal cutting blade should be able to slip in there.

AT least that's the way I see it. Then you should be able to have everything pretty much squared away, plumb and level too. 



You're not the first owner-builder who's messed up on a door either.

I hope that all helps a little.

G/L on the weather too. Here the weather guy is saying I might get snowed on Saturday up at the cabin. Or maybe not. He doesn't really know.  ???  I always start wondering when (if?) it will stop snowing when I get caught in a snow up there in the mountains.


Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time and money to fix it?

Offline OlJarhead

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #133 on: November 12, 2009, 12:31:26 PM »
OK, I got it.  :-\   I was confused by a difference in terminology. "Band Joist"

I believe you are referring to those 2xsomethings that are notched into the wall studs at or above window header height.  :)   I think of them as Ledger Boards. A Band Joist to me is one of those 2xthings that run around the perimeter of the Floor Joists, also called a Rim Joist. There are probably other names or them in different parts of the country/world.

Yes it would have been easier to frame and square up the walls before those pieces were nailed in.

So, did I interpret things correctly or am I all wet?  ???

One more question. Is that Ledger Board supposed to stop there or go further. I think it is supposed to stop there at the window edge.  ???



Somewhere I got the idea they were band joists (maybe from JR?) -- but yes the 2x10 notched into the walls.  It stops at 10' so there is an overhang past the last stud.  I could put a stud in there though to support the end but I thought there was so much support they way it's notched in that it probably doesn't need it.  ???

There are two in the walls -- one on the west end that is 6 feet long (not installed yet) and one on the east end that is 10 feet long.  The ten footer is well supported by 6 or 8 studs it's notched into but the 6 footer is notched into the first 3 studs and then goes out over the window.  One change I could make I suppose is to make the band joist go 7 or 8 feet so it gets to the next kind stud -- thereby having support all the way out.

While we are on the subject can anyone advise me on making the gang way between the two lofts?  My thought was to put in two doubled up 2x8's in double joist hangers and then hanging 2x6's between them for a 36" gang way between the two lofts.  I figured the two 2x8's nailed together would make strong enough beams to both support the loft and the gang way.

Thoughts?
Thanks!

Offline OlJarhead

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #134 on: November 12, 2009, 12:36:15 PM »
So it seems you can get that north wall plumb, not leaning into or out of the cabin, but it is not square, as in a 4x8 sheet overhangs or underhangs some o the wall stud when you try to line things up.

I bet those Ledgers are nailed in real good with the air nailer.  ;D  The best solution may be to give them a hard whack with a big hammer to loosen them a little. Use a block of scrap wood to try to keep from damaging the Ledger. Then use a metal cutting blade in a reciprocating saw to cut the nails between the Ledger and the wall stud. Remove the Ledger, square the wall, apply exterior sheathing and then re-install the Ledger.

I've done that a few times. A nice long metal cutting blade should be able to slip in there.

AT least that's the way I see it. Then you should be able to have everything pretty much squared away, plumb and level too. 



You're not the first owner-builder who's messed up on a door either.

I hope that all helps a little.

G/L on the weather too. Here the weather guy is saying I might get snowed on Saturday up at the cabin. Or maybe not. He doesn't really know.  ???  I always start wondering when (if?) it will stop snowing when I get caught in a snow up there in the mountains.




Hmmmm that's kinda what I was thinking -- except I was so worried about the weather that I sheeted the wall anyway.  It's off square but you are correct, it's plumb (to inside/outside).

One sheet didn't line up with the studs -- only one sheet right under the ledger/band joist/whatever it's called.

So, pull the sheeting (it can be done) fix the wall and move on or leave it alone becuase it isn't big enough to matter -- after all it's a cabin....hmmm...I'm not so sure and am hopeful my choice now will be the right one as I don't want a roof landing on my head in the middle of the night! ha!

Thanks for the note on the overhang too!  I was thinking that it didn't matter that much becuase there really isn't a lot of weight there when compared to say a real house :P ;)

Offline OlJarhead

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #135 on: November 13, 2009, 08:19:54 AM »
At what point do you say "screw it" and leave the wall out of square?  And at what point do you say "heck no" and pull it apart and fix it?

The walls are 24 feet long and will carry a 2x6 framed roof.  Only one sheet out of 6 was out of square so other then ONE SHEET of OSB Sheeting they are all nicely lined up on the studs.  That one sheet was out by about 3/4" over 8 feet.  This tells me that stud was severely out of whack but the rest were damn close.

So, if that one sheet is enough to pull things apart I will becuase I don't want my cabin breaking on me, but if it's just me worrying too much then I'll stop it and move on!

I can get about 4-5 hours of work in on Saturday and Sunday and they are calling for snow!  So, if I can use that time to finish the sheeting, put felt down on the walls, plastic the windows real well and begin roof framing then I'd be 100% happier!

Thougths?  I'm checking every minute incase some of you smarter/more experienced folks will respond (gets down and begs)... d* :-\ :-\ ???

Offline PA-Builder

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #136 on: November 13, 2009, 08:45:42 AM »
If I understand your situation correctly, you are saying that the first five sheets (20') all hit evenly (in the middle) of your studs, but now the last panel is off center by 3/4".  

Are the 4' ends of the first five sheets in a perfectly straight line, with corners meeting at same point ?  If they are, then it sounds like your wall is pretty square.

I would do two diagonal measurements (from opposite corners) to see if the 24' wall is square.  

It sounds like you may only have one stud that is "out of whack",  and the entire wall section is OK.  If that is the case you could take the time to rip the stud out, and probably damage your OSB, OR why not just put another stud along side the existing "out of whack" stud so that your panel can then be securely fastened to both studs.  Either way, this doesn't sound like something that is going to "break" your cabin.  I'd be more concerned with making sure that your entire wall section, window openings, and door openings are perfectly square.

« Last Edit: November 13, 2009, 02:48:55 PM by PA-Builder »

Offline MountainDon

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #137 on: November 13, 2009, 10:46:02 AM »

Only one sheet out of 6 was out of square so other then ONE SHEET of OSB Sheeting they are all nicely lined up on the studs. 

I thought the entire framed wall was out of whack, that it was more like a parallelogram than a rectangle. If it's that close you could likely leave it. You may be the only one to notice. Of course, you may also be reminded of it every time you go to do something in that corner.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time and money to fix it?

Offline OlJarhead

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #138 on: November 13, 2009, 03:16:14 PM »
Of the 6 sheets the first 4 are lined up nicely with no noticeable difference.  Then the 5th is out of whack and the 6th is fine.

However, when I put a 4 foot level on the studs the first 16 feet is pretty close then the next 4 feet is out (at the join of the two walls.  The last 4 feet isn't perfect either but is close.  So only one sheet of OSB didn't line up on the studs and is out about 3/4".  Both sheets on that stud however are secured (toe nailed in spots to reach the stud cleanly and there are no gaps through the sheets (they touch studs all the way).

The 5th sheet that is out drops in one corner about 1/2" below the 6th sheet -- if I could draw it it would look like the 5th out of 6 sheets is a little cock-eyed.

The weather has gotten foul and I'm expecting at least 4" of snow on the tarp :(  Let's hope I can clean it off and finish the sheeting and top plates and start the loft so that at least I can strengthen the temporary roof!

Erik

Offline OlJarhead

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #139 on: November 16, 2009, 07:29:52 AM »
We arrived to find snow built up on the temp roof/tarp and used brooms to get a lot of it off the night we got to the cabin.  Then the next day we got the ladders out and worked the snow and ice off the roof.

We then tore the back wall apart (it started with removing the band joist/ledger and then we took all the OSB sheeting off too) and hooked the wall up to the winch on my jeep.  A little pull and the wall squared up!  We put the level (4 foot) on pretty much every joist in every direction and son-of-a-gun the wall was plumb and square :) :)  [cool]

I then rolled the 2x10 ledger/band joist over (the other side was a little ugly from pulling the 16d nails out) and after some creative notching got it level and installed once again.

A comment here:  The 2x10 is resting on 5 or 6 studs and is 10 feet long.  I hadn't thought it would need support at the end of the ledger but others suggested it might.  So a question for the framers/engineers/generally smart guys out there is:  Do you think I need to slot a stud in there to support the end?  I will be putting a double 2x8 there and installing a gang way to the other loft.

The other ledger is installed (I need to look that word up *snicker*) and it too does not reach the next stud.  However, I didn't feel it was needed since it was supported by so many others.

I'll be installing 2x8x13ish loft joists between these ledgers (I think the plans call for 24" centers but I have a question there that I need to go back to older posts on).

The 6 foot loft on the west end -- and here I am thinking "why did I cut that ledger at 6  feet when a little longer would tie it into the stud that's RIGHT there.  I didn't fully nail it off so it would be easily removed if needed.

And this one!!!  d* ??? I thought maybe installing a doubled up 2x6 header with a shim to support the end over the wall might work but the more I thought about it the more I thought a 7 foot 2x10 ledger would be supported by the stud on the end -- so why not?

I don't think I'll remove the 2nd header unless there is a good reason to do so but you can see the struggle going on here.

My thought?  Get 2 2x10x8's and cut them to fit to the studs on the end and nail them down there just to be safe.  Then build the 6 foot loft as planned with doubled 2x8 joists on the end to hang the gang way on. (gang way I'm thinking 2x6 joists since the span is only 8 feet -- thoughts on that?).

« Last Edit: June 23, 2010, 08:56:26 AM by OlJarhead »

Offline OlJarhead

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #140 on: November 16, 2009, 07:36:38 AM »
At least we finally got the top plates on and sheeted the walls fully :)  And since I read that it didn't which side of the sheeting faced out and that I could run the sheets sideways (8 foot length down) along the tops of the walls I did just that!

We also got the temp roof installed a little better this time by putting up 5 2x8x14's and putting blocks between them to hold them upright and then pulling the tarp as tight as we could get it over them.

The tarp is taking a beating but it's holding up and I think I can get the roof framed in the next trip or too -- if I can get one of my framing buddies to help that is! DOH!
hehe


And finally back on the road, tired and heading home -- the snow was only up above about 2500 feet I think.  Becuase it wasn't very far from there that it all cleared up and the drive home was uneventful :)

Now, next trip in two weeks after some turkey!  Wish us luck!
« Last Edit: June 23, 2010, 08:57:07 AM by OlJarhead »

Offline MountainDon

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #141 on: November 16, 2009, 06:58:14 PM »
Looks like a superhighway compared to my snow covered dirt    ;D ;D ;D
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time and money to fix it?

Offline OlJarhead

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #142 on: November 17, 2009, 11:50:33 AM »
I'm sure!  Did you see my questions on page 7?  I'm curious what you think and am hopeful I can address on my next trip.

We did pull that wall apart too and now the level is happy :)

Offline MountainDon

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #143 on: November 17, 2009, 02:17:11 PM »
No, I missed the end of page 7.


Well, first I'll say I like to see ends of things supported. But... here's a thought that might be worth investigating. (This is a very quick & dirty unscaled sketch. Please do not try to duplicate the wavy lines.  ;) )



 ??? ???

I like the idea of replacing those 7 footers with 8 footers.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time and money to fix it?

Offline OlJarhead

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #144 on: November 17, 2009, 08:12:08 PM »
Thanks Don.

Not sure I understand the catwalk?  I was planning on doubled joists at each end with a span of 8 feet for the catwalk.

Are you saying to put 2x joists partway down the catwalk to the wall supported on the ledger??

Offline MountainDon

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #145 on: November 17, 2009, 08:55:01 PM »
What I'm wondering about is this....

On the one end where you have 7' ledgers at present, go ahead and replace those with 8'. Install double joists across at the end of those ledgers.


At the other end of the cabin leave the ledgers as they are.
Double up the last joist you have already in place.
Run the catwalk between those doubled joists.

Fill in the space where the ledger ends do not connect to the studs with short joists from the ledger to the catwalk joist(s).

I thought of this because it would place load from the catwalk joists on a joist that is more fully supported by the ledger, than if the catwalk was connected to a joist at the end of the ledger (unsupported end). Not being a licensed engineer I can't say it's any better than just leaving the ledger ends unsupported and carrying the weight there.

I hope you can see what I mean.

Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time and money to fix it?

Offline OlJarhead

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #146 on: November 18, 2009, 07:40:04 AM »


OK here goes :)


You can see the ledger doesn't reach the stud but is supported by 7 studs along the span of 10'.  The slight distance from the last stud to the end of the ledger is about 4".  From a structural standpoint I do not think this is an issue even with doubled 2x8's right there at the end becuase of the 7 studs on the rest of the span and the floor pressing against the studs holding the loft.  Just as the last stud in the corner doesn't really do much.  It's like a header that has nothing in the middle but a stud at the ends to hold the weight -- I think the principle is the same -- no?

Now this one comes a little closer but I think it fine also:


It's actually held by a little more (I think 8 studs) but again at the end of the 10' span there is no stud.  I don't think it's an issue really but wondered what others thought becuase I'm not above putting in one more stud if a doubled 2x8 with a catwalk hanging on it might warrant such a measure.

But this 6 foot ledger worries me:


The ledger spans almost across the 4 foot window under it but not all the way and with only 3 studs carrying the weight I decided to put in another header (2x6 doubled) to help carry the load -- then realized that probably was in adequate (despite the 2x12 header behind it) and wondered if I just got a longer ledger (say 7 feet) and rant it to the stud and nailed it into that then at least it would be carried by the header and the king stud on the end.

Thoughts?

Finally, this one I think is ok because it is carried on 4 studs over the 6 foot span -- but making it longer couldn't hurt right?

Then, of course, doubling the 2x8's and putting the catwalk on them shouldn't be an issue right?

Also, for the catwalk I was thinking 2x6 DF#2's becuase it's only 8 feet of span.  I could frame those on 16centers and make it 4 feet wide.

Another oops of mine by the way was to decide to go to 16" centers on the loft joists and then forget and plan for 24" centers -- which is a little too weak for 2x8's.  SO I've had to go back and reconsider that.

Also, note in the drawing above that I don't show the 2x8's and where they are.  In the pictures you see only one on the 10' span and it's at 8' -- it was put there as a wall tie actually.  Since it will remain there for the loft floor (8 feet is on 16"c) and eventually there will be another at 9'4" and a double at 10' as well as back along the span.

I think it will be strong enough that way :)

Just need to think about those ledgers a bit more.
Thanks
Erik
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 07:34:17 PM by OlJarhead »

Offline OlJarhead

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #147 on: November 20, 2009, 11:05:31 AM »
Bumpity Bump --

Don?  Any others?  Just wondering if you can comment as I plan to buy the new 2x10's tomorrow to frame the small loft and the rest of the loft and roof material (I was a bit short) and will be driving up to do some loft work tomorrow.

Thanks!

Offline MountainDon

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #148 on: November 20, 2009, 11:54:11 AM »
later   :D
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time and money to fix it?

Offline MountainDon

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #149 on: November 20, 2009, 04:42:17 PM »

But this 6 foot ledger worries me:


The ledger spans almost across the 4 foot window under it but not all the way and with only 3 studs


As this one sits you are depending almost totally on the nails securing it to the two studs above the window. If that 2x was longer and nicely notched into that stud to the left o the window it would be stronger and much better.


Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time and money to fix it?