Author Topic: 20X40 1.5 STORY IN SOUTHERN UTAH  (Read 3099 times)

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Offline ffpara

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20X40 1.5 STORY IN SOUTHERN UTAH
« on: April 20, 2017, 11:36:11 AM »
Plans are done, Permits pulled, and Basement/Septic should be started this May. Location is 40 Acres near Bryce Canyon. I hired a contractor for the Basement and Septic but will be building the rest myself. As long as the contractor doesn't Back-out it should be poured by end of May. I've had lots of problems finding a contractor that was willing to do the job and cost a lot more than I had planned because of how remote it is and lack of contractors near by.
Land:
20170417_154858 by sbahde, on Flickr
20170417_154911 by sbahde, on Flickr
20170417_154921 by sbahde, on Flickr

Offline ffpara

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Re: 20X40 1.5 STORY IN SOUTHERN UTAH
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2017, 11:40:56 AM »
Plans:
Front Elevation:
Screenshot_20170420-103204 by sbahde, on Flickr
Rear elevation:
Screenshot_20170420-103217 by sbahde, on Flickr
Rt:
Screenshot_20170420-103121 by sbahde, on Flickr
Lt
Screenshot_20170420-103028 by sbahde, on Flickr
Cross:
Screenshot_20170420-103056 by sbahde, on Flickr

Offline ffpara

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Offline ChugiakTinkerer

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Re: 20X40 1.5 STORY IN SOUTHERN UTAH
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2017, 01:29:12 PM »
Welcome to the forum and good luck with the foundation work.  Will this be a residence or a getaway cabin?
My cabin build thread: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story

Offline ffpara

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Re: 20X40 1.5 STORY IN SOUTHERN UTAH
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2017, 02:28:14 PM »
Thanks. Getaway cabin until I retire then a summer home. To much snow in the winters for my liking.

Offline Don_P

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Re: 20X40 1.5 STORY IN SOUTHERN UTAH
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2017, 05:45:41 PM »
My eyes can't read the plan notes so this might all be in there, the collar tie section drawing, rafter ties should be in the lower third of roof height unless the ridge is designed as a beam. The ledger for the loft should be notched into the studs rather than simply nailed to them. Then the loft joists pass over the ledger and nail into the sides of the studs providing more tie to the building. Don't forget to fireblock between studs there between the floors and in all the walls that exceed 10' in height to cut down on the chimney effect if a fire does get into a wall. Best luck in May.

Offline ffpara

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Re: 20X40 1.5 STORY IN SOUTHERN UTAH
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2017, 06:58:18 PM »
Thanks Don_P for taking a look at the plans. Its just a ridge board not a beam. The loft is supported by 6x12 beams 4' on center and the second floor will be 2x6 T&G. the beams sit on 3-2x6 and then bolted into a stud. The plans call for either an entire 2nd floor and its also engineered for the last 12' in the living room to be open. Ill probably go with just a partial loft. Will be blocking at 8' max need blocking for the shear walls too. Any advice is welcome. One place in the plans it does say ridge beam though its only 1- 13/4x117/8 lvl because we started off with a ridge beam, but it didn't work out so we went with a ridge board and the engineer forgot to change it and I didn't catch it tell later. Cost more money for the change and to print out the new plans so I left it, the inspector was ok with it thankfully.

Offline CabinNick

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Re: 20X40 1.5 STORY IN SOUTHERN UTAH
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2017, 08:05:03 PM »
Bet you can hardly wait for the contractor to get going.  Thanks for sharing.  You plans are very similar to what we have planned; look forward to following your build.

Offline ffpara

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Re: 20X40 1.5 STORY IN SOUTHERN UTAH
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2017, 03:59:55 PM »
Work started again. The contractor will be working on the basement and septic the next couple weeks.
2000000000360271 by sbahde, on Flickr
2000000000360275 by sbahde, on Flickr
2000000000360279 by sbahde, on Flickr
2000000000360283 by sbahde, on Flickr

Offline azgreg

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Re: 20X40 1.5 STORY IN SOUTHERN UTAH
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2017, 04:41:28 PM »
Great start! Looking good.  :)

Offline NathanS

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Re: 20X40 1.5 STORY IN SOUTHERN UTAH
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2017, 05:26:22 PM »
Great looking foundation. That is a beautiful area of the country.

Offline ffpara

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Re: 20X40 1.5 STORY IN SOUTHERN UTAH
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2017, 12:52:46 PM »
Have a question about my deck post. On the long side of the cabin and a few on the ends I have 6x6 post that go from the footer to the upper beam for the deck rafters for the covered deck. My question is my plans call for 2-2x12 beam to support the deck joist that also connects to that post. What is the best way to support the beam to the post since the post continues up to the covered deck. If I notch the post I would be removing 3" and leave only 2.5" in the post. Ive read numerous places that this is acceptable since the beam inside the notch then bolted returns most of the strength to the post, but seem like a lot of material to remove. I considered going to 8x8 post but with length and the number of post that will add almost 2k to the cost. Simpson does have Huc212-2 connectors. They are used as a  doubled joist connector and not a beam but since its only supporting the deck the calcs look strong enough but it comes at a cost too but not nearly as bad as 8x8. I could also put in separate post from the footing just for beams to sit on top of and not use the post. Anyone experience this and have any ideas, not much I can find in building codes or the IRC deck construction guide for this.
Thanks

Offline ChugiakTinkerer

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Re: 20X40 1.5 STORY IN SOUTHERN UTAH
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2017, 03:45:30 PM »
I'm not confident that I'm fully grasping what you describe, but it seems that if the deck and posts can be built in stages rather than one continuous post then you should be fine taking out the 3" notch.  This seems common-sense-like, so I'm probably wrong.   d*

I was concerned at first that the HUC212-2 isn't heavy duty enough.  Simpson reports the max load capacity in doug fir as 3275 lbs.  Deck loads are supposed ot be calculated at 40 psf live and 10 psf dead load.  The biggest area is the upper deck, which looks to be about 8'x20', supported by the wall and by the two corner posts.  Total load is 8,000 lbs.  The part I forgot is that the wall is supporting half that load, so the beam has 4,000 lbs, and each corner has 2,000 lbs.  Looks good to me as long as you can afford the hangers and all the nails to hang them.

Edit for afterthought: the hangers hold great against shear loads.  if you use them, do you have a way to resist tension?  In a deck the deck boards overlap the rim joists and effectively counter any spreading forces that would cause the hangers to pull away.  If you hang a beam with the brackets, what other than the nails holds the beam against the post?
My cabin build thread: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story

Offline ffpara

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Re: 20X40 1.5 STORY IN SOUTHERN UTAH
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2017, 05:24:42 PM »
If you look at the photos above especially 104212 which is the the deck joist layout and 104155 is the deck rafters you can get an idea what I'm talking about. I can click on the picture and it will enlarge not sure if you can if not u wont be able to read the plans and specs. Not sure what u mean by building the the deck and post up in stages. It seems like it's better to have it one continuous post so there's no hinge points. In stages would it be a post from the footer with the beam sitting on top of that then another post that sits on top of that beam that goes to the roof? The idea I came up with is to make it a 6x8 which decreases the cost in half rather than going to a  8x8. Then I can notch 3" into the bottom area of that post (depending on the height the beam needs to be at) for the 2-2x12 that make up the beam for the deck joist. And the same on the top of that post for the 2-2x10 that make up the beam for the rafters. Seems best way since one continuous post from footer to roof and no hinge points. But it does come at a cost still.
The nails would be the only thing holding the beam to the post if I went with the simpson connector. Unless I'm missing something.
Thanks for the ideas. Maybe I'm not understanding the building it in stages idea and maybe that's the common way to do it. I've asked numerous people who are contractors that i work with and have gotten 20 different ideas with none sounding like it's a common practice. That they were just shooting out ideas. Online was the same,  I searched everywhere and can't find any pics of it.

Offline ChugiakTinkerer

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Re: 20X40 1.5 STORY IN SOUTHERN UTAH
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2017, 11:02:57 AM »
I'll preface my comments with the statement that I'm not a pro and haven't looked at the IRC on decks in a while.  By building in stages, I mean to describe a deck built similar to how platform construction works on a house.  The first "wall" is formed by the posts that go from the footer to the main deck.  This will need to be adequately braced.  The joists and decking of the main deck form the "floor"  The posts going up to the rafters (or the upper deck) form the "second story wall".  I'll venture to say that most porches are built in this manner.  The load from the roof is transmitted to the deck floor, which is borne by the post below.  The floor forms a diaphragm that resists movement at the hinge point.  That's the theory with platform construction, but decks are not built with full shear walls so it isn't fully achieved with the skeletal structure.

I still don't know if notching a 6x6 is viable, but if you treat it like a timber frame post, you design for the core of the post to be strong enough and allow for the exterior portion of the post to be carved away for joinery.  Looking at Don P's toolbox calculator, 1 post formed by the core (2.5 inches by 5.5 inches) with an unbraced length of 108 inches can support up to 2100 lbs.  So in theory a 2.5x5.5 could be strong enough to hold up the deck.  This is calculated using #2 doug fir.

That's cutting it pretty close, and doesn't take into consideration what the snow load from the roof might be.  So you're probably wise to step up to the 6x8.

EDIT: Okay, once I posted I thought on this some more.  I don't think you need to take out a full 3" across the entire post.  Generally all you need to support a joist is 1.5 inches.  So a post that is 5.5" x 5.5" will have two notches take out, each 1.5" x 3".  That gives you an additional 2.5" x 3" of post remaining that didn't go into the calculation above.  It makes for an awkward calculation to determine what the buckling strength of the post will be, and I don't have the training to do it.  But I suspect that it will be dramatically higher than for the post I analyzed.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 11:17:29 AM by ChugiakTinkerer »
My cabin build thread: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story

Offline ChugiakTinkerer

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Re: 20X40 1.5 STORY IN SOUTHERN UTAH
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2017, 11:31:39 AM »
The back elevation shows no central post supporting the upper deck.  That means the girder spans a full 20', or more like 19'.  Will the girder there be a doubled 2x12?  I ask because the beam calculator for #2 doug fir with a load of 4,000 lbs shows a max span of 104 inches.
My cabin build thread: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story

Offline Don_P

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Re: 20X40 1.5 STORY IN SOUTHERN UTAH
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2017, 06:12:39 PM »
I do this pretty often with railings and did run it by the engineering professor that helped write DCA-6, and the articles on railings and ledgers for decks in the trade mags. He groaned a bit but could understand my thinking. An unbroken post for a railing is much better support than a deck support post and a separate railing post. I notch 2.25" deep with is as deep as a 7.25" skilsaw blade will go and fully supports the inner ply of the girder and half the thickness of the outer ply, then bolt the girder through the post. I've used the same method for porches several times, works fine. More often I'll platform frame (building it in stages) due to material lengths. The perceived hinge is laterally supported by the deck so not a real hinge point. There is a serious uplift concern though, so if you do that I run a plate of steel from the inside of the notch, between the girder and post and vertically up into the porch post, bolting through girder, steel and post. The post sits over the steel knife plate and is pinned and plugged through post and steel. Your solution is better time and strengthwise. Thye material removed is not replaced, the shrinkage will remove that tight infill. The column strength required in that notch area is more than likely adequate, you might want to check that but it has not been the control in ones I have done.

Offline ffpara

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Re: 20X40 1.5 STORY IN SOUTHERN UTAH
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2017, 09:10:04 PM »
Thanks for all the great advice. I think I'll go with notching a 6x8. I do like hearing that building in stages is a good way to go because I may have to do that on the one end because those post go all the way to the top of the 12 wall were the rest only go 8' so i may run into a  length issue, being to long since that will be the lowest dirt elevation. Since its on the down hill side. Contractor told me it's 30 below top of wall though it seems alot lower in the pics we will see when they back fill. But 30" plus 12" for I Joist then 12 wall is a long post.
The rear upper deck will end up getting a middle post probably. The engineer called for 2- 2x16 lvl but they don't make exterior grade lvl made to be in constant weather so i decided to put in a 3rd post I haven't looked to see what size beam to got to span the 20' to leave it as is. There's already a footer for a middle post if needed

Offline ffpara

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Re: 20X40 1.5 STORY IN SOUTHERN UTAH
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2017, 09:35:42 PM »
Walls are poured.
2000000000366066 by sbahde, on Flickr
2000000000366068 by sbahde, on Flickr

Offline ffpara

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Re: 20X40 1.5 STORY IN SOUTHERN UTAH
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2017, 09:14:33 PM »
20170702_190855 by sbahde, on Flickr
20170702_190938 by sbahde, on Flickr
20170703_102516 by sbahde, on Flickr
Basement and footers are done. Waiting for them to start the septic. Wood for the floor will be delivered the 26th and the building will start.

Offline pmichelsen

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Re: 20X40 1.5 STORY IN SOUTHERN UTAH
« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2017, 07:45:08 AM »
Who knew a big concrete hole could be so beautiful. Looks great!

Offline Rys

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Re: 20X40 1.5 STORY IN SOUTHERN UTAH
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2017, 02:08:36 PM »
Looking foward to seeing more!

Offline ffpara

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Re: 20X40 1.5 STORY IN SOUTHERN UTAH
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2017, 01:12:30 PM »
2017-07-30_10-04-34 by sbahde, on Flickr
2017-07-30_10-06-48 by sbahde, on Flickr
2017-07-30_10-06-11 by sbahde, on Flickr
2017-07-30_10-05-42 by sbahde, on Flickr
2017-07-30_10-05-02 by sbahde, on Flickr

My 15 yr old son and I got the subfloor on last weekend. Just the 2 of us and it took 2.5 days. 2 of those 10 hour days. He did great never complained once and really seemed to enjoy the project. Would have gotten done sooner but had some delays. Showed up to 1.5" of water in the basement which made framing the stairs that much easier. It did dry out right before we left. One of the generators stopped working, good thing we had a back-up. I also deecided to glue and screw the 11/8 plywood subfloor (suppose to be Advantech but they received plywood instead and I didnt want it to delay another 10 days). If I had it to do over with I would have nailed it with ring shank nails. Screwing it was exhausting and took for ever since the I-joist were 12" on center. I bought a senco self feeding screw gun and had troubles with it thru out the project. Lots of wasted screws and probably 4 hours added onto the project not including the effort. Guess it is better that its screwed down but at the time it didn't seem like it was worth it.
Start the walls on the 19th since my sons team won there state championship and we are now in San Jose for the regional tournament. Delays delays but this one is well worth it.
Oh ya dont forget something in the basement otherwise you have to cut the stairs out. I wanted to leave it covered tell the walls went up for ease and safety but that didn't work out. Ill throw some plywood over it tell we get 1st floor done.

Offline Adam Roby

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Re: 20X40 1.5 STORY IN SOUTHERN UTAH
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2017, 01:37:45 PM »
Nice work, we need a shot of you doing the traditional dance on the main floor (dance of victory so to speak).

Offline ffpara

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Re: 20X40 1.5 STORY IN SOUTHERN UTAH
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2017, 02:09:24 PM »
No one would want to that, trust me.