Author Topic: 24x24 in Western New Mexico  (Read 131188 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline hpinson

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 803
24x24 in Western New Mexico
« on: February 07, 2011, 12:50:41 PM »
Hello!

We have finally closed on some land in Western New Mexico and plan on building a small cottage there over the next few years, as funds allow.

After searching through this forum, we came across Mark Chenail's dogtrot visualizations:

http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=2173.0

My wife, daughter, and I, being new builders, are attracted to the simplicity of this structure.  The hip roof looks less intimidating than the steeply pitched roofs that are used in some other designs.  No complicated stairs are needed. We like the single story and open wheelchair friendly layout, which means that as we age we will be able to use it for longer. While we are located at an elevation of 7800', summers can be quite hot, and the dogtrot really seems to encourage cross ventilation. Access to the property in winter is spotty, depending on conditions, and we don't plan on spending a lot of time there December through March.

I began to visualize using Chief Architect Home Designer Suite 10 yesterday.  I have to say that CAHDS 10 is a great bit of visualization software for $99. It is very intuitive. The following were done in less than four hours with no prior experience with this software.

Here is a possible rough layout, based on a 20x36 footprint:



And a 3D rendering with, and without a roof:





Any comments on my initial ideas would be appreciated.

A few years ago I bought the Big Enchilada plan set from Mr. Rabbe, but those no longer seem appropriate for what we are trying to do.

Would I be well served by the 20x30 1-Story Cottage Plans? Could they be reasonably modified, given what's above, into plans that might be acceptable to permitting agencies? Or would I need custom plans drawn up?


Thanks!

-- Harlow
« Last Edit: January 04, 2014, 07:00:38 PM by hpinson »

Offline Squirl

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,154
Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2011, 01:29:22 PM »
Congratulations on the land!
The design looks great.  I will let others comment on the adaptability of plans, because I don't know.
I assume that you will be having a full basement?  The reason I ask is that in my plans, I went with a post and pier design and forgot to put in an area for utilities. (hot water tank, furnace, water pressure tank, electric panel)

I like the wood stove location.

Offline MountainDon

  • Administrator
  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,516
  • Jemez Mountains, NM; that's pronounced HEY-mess
    • My 15.75 x 30 Jemez Cabin
Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2011, 02:07:26 PM »

Would I be well served by the 20x30 1-Story Cottage Plans? Could they be reasonably modified, given what's above, into plans that might be acceptable to permitting agencies? Or would I need custom plans drawn up?

You could use John's 20x30 plan as a basis to modify. Key things to remember when modifying is that making a plan wider means re engineering. Increasing length is usually just building more of the same, making it longer. Johns 20x30 uses no load bearing interior walls so the floor plan is yours to play with. I don't think a hip roof is included though. ??? However, the easy way to get that would be from a truss company. They would engineer the roof and supply drawings that would satisfy your building permit department.

My understanding is that NM is fairly even handed when it comes to building requirements, although counties and cities are free to add to the requirements or restrictions. Maybe you already have done some research, if not the general requirements for obtaining a building permit can be found online...
http://www.rld.state.nm.us/cid/PDFs/Guides/BLDG%20RES%20GUIDE%20110310.pdf
Johns plans should be fine for submitting. I've used my own plans in the past which as similar to what John draws up. They simply pencilled in a couple of notes on a couple details and passed them.


Everything falls under the CID...
http://www.rld.state.nm.us/cid/permitting.htm

You will find ResCheck a help with the design and permit process. It will calculate a pass/fail on the energy efficiency of the structure. When I was planning the CID told me they wanted the print out from ResCheck along with the plan submission.

Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesnít mean it is good design.

If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time and money to fix it?

Offline MountainDon

  • Administrator
  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,516
  • Jemez Mountains, NM; that's pronounced HEY-mess
    • My 15.75 x 30 Jemez Cabin
Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2011, 02:20:10 PM »
Squirl makes a good point on the utilities.


I notice you have offset the wood stove chimney a little. Be sure to allow enough offset to make it easy to install the chimney flashing/boot as well as the roof ridge. I got a little too close to the hip on our gazebo chimney. It made flashing a bit more work. I would have been more concerned if it had been the cabin.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesnít mean it is good design.

If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time and money to fix it?

Offline hpinson

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 803
Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2011, 02:46:26 PM »
>> Don.

This is over in Lindrith, in Rio Arriba County. We live in Rio Rancho. You live in this area of New Mexico too?

I certainly have latitude to move the stove over a few feet to avoid the situation that you describe.

20' foot wide should be good with John's plans. The 36' is longer, so given your remarks, that should work (adding length not width).

Thanks for the references for permitting, I will browse.

>> Squirl

No basement... slab, perimeter foundation, or concrete posts, and I'm not at all sure yet which route to take.

The Pressure tank location is a work in progress.  I will be sorting out the well this spring, and at that point should have enough of an idea to locate it inside of this design. The cold temperatures in the area are definitly something I have to consider.

Likewise with the electrical panel.  Electricity will come in from the kitchen side, and power exists to a pole. I've yet to exactly site the building so have some work to do in that area.

What I am thinking is that the stove is the primary heat source.  Wood or gas-fired propane I'm not sure yet.  In my own house I have a gas-fired stove unit, which is quite nice, and does a great job.

Hot water would be via a tankless system, which is mounted on the kitchen wall that is not visible in the rendering.

Offline MountainDon

  • Administrator
  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,516
  • Jemez Mountains, NM; that's pronounced HEY-mess
    • My 15.75 x 30 Jemez Cabin
Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2011, 05:48:21 PM »
We've lived in RR since '85.

Broadmoor & Nicklaus area
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesnít mean it is good design.

If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time and money to fix it?

Offline hpinson

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 803
Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2011, 08:15:45 PM »
Neat, we live near 19th and 32nd.  Maybe we will cross paths sometime.  :o)

Offline Squirl

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,154
Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2011, 06:32:53 AM »
Ah, Iím glad that I brought this up.  I don't know the permitting requirements in NM, so hopefully this won't apply.  In my area an "automatic" heating source is required to get a permit/pass code.  I have seen many vented gas and pellet stoves meet this requirement, but not wood.  Also check your locality. I have seen some require a heat source per bedroom.  I'm not sure if that is memorialized in the ICC or if it is just practice.  I'm just trying to give you the heads up. I have had to redesign my plans a few times to account for these.

If you do have these requirements and you are grid tied, it can be very cheap to overcome.  Many people just install baseboard electric heaters to pass code with no intention of using them.

Offline dmanley

  • Apprentice
  • *
  • Posts: 21
Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2011, 07:15:26 AM »
My only comment would be do you really want the bathroom on the opposite end of the house from the bedrooms?  Middle of the night trips could be a little toe banging.  Other than that, I like the plan.

Offline hpinson

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 803
Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2011, 08:59:51 AM »
>> Squirl

I'll have to check what the heating requirement is for Rio Arriba County. This is Northern New Mexico, and a lot of people heat with wood here, though Santa Fe style over-regulation is creeping into permitting requirements I would imagine (certainly is in the area of wastewater disposal). I'd prefer wood, because I seem to have lots of that, and won't be in the cabin in the dead of winter. A medium size wood stove should heat this whole space with no problem, with perhaps some additional venting between rooms, or an open ceiling arrangement.  Propane is ok too though.  I really like my little Hearthstone Tuscon direct vent, though would want something a bit bigger, like their Maidstone model.

http://www.hearthstonestoves.com/gas-stoves/stove-details?product_id=8

I'm hoping to insulate the 2x6 framing well.  Blown in insulation would be great, but I don't yet know if that is available in this fairly remote neck of the woods.

I know that if you refer back to Mark's layouts, the living room and each bedroom has a heater of some sort.

I wonder if these small propane direct vent heaters would meet any requirement for heating per bedroom.

http://www.dickinsonmarine.com/propane.php

>> dmanley

I think I'm ok with the bathroom location.  I also see a pretty big construction advantage in that it shares a plumbed wall with the kitchen. It's certainly no worse than many places I've lived. A reaarangement of the sofa and chair layout would help too. Did you have a specific suggestion to improve?
« Last Edit: February 08, 2011, 09:13:32 AM by hpinson »

Offline dmanley

  • Apprentice
  • *
  • Posts: 21
Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2011, 09:14:25 AM »
That was just the first thought I had when I saw the plan.  Furniture arrangement will help, plus this layout keeps your plumbing all in the same area.  Look forward to seeing future photos.

Offline dug

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 762
  • SW New Mexico
Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2011, 09:24:15 AM »
Love the hip roof! Classic NM architecture.

Offline John Raabe

  • Administrator
  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,549
  • Whidbey Island, WA
    • CountryPlans - About Us
Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2011, 09:52:27 AM »


The above image has some suggestions. While a pretty good layout, it runs into the curse of the dog-trot design. IE: the connection area is really a big hallway.

The 20' wide single story plans have all three foundation plan options (pier, crawlspace and slab) and can be extended for your layout. The included truss diagrams can be engineered to local loads and delivered to the top of the walls. The truss company may be able to give you a coffered ceiling over the great room and still keep the hip roof.

For code required heat you can do electric wall heaters inexpensively. Direct vent propane can work as well but is more costly to install. See which cost more per delivered BTU based on your local fuel costs.

Opps, last thing I noticed. You need each bedroom to have a window large enough to meet egress requirements.
None of us are as smart as all of us.

Offline MountainDon

  • Administrator
  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,516
  • Jemez Mountains, NM; that's pronounced HEY-mess
    • My 15.75 x 30 Jemez Cabin
Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2011, 10:18:18 AM »
Harlow, NM uses the IRC 2006 code version. The following link is to the VA version, it is mostly the same.

VA 2006 IRC

We have a code thread....

It can be overwhelming but there is a lot of great info, the same info the inspectors use to determine if the plans will pass and then later to see if your work will pass.

Things like the window sizes needed for emergency egress is well documented. I refer to it a lot.

The online books are not printable, nor can the text be copied and pasted into another program. However, if you use Firefox and have the DownThemAll plug in, the entire book can be downloaded to your computer. There's still no printing, etc but it makes it very handy to have your own copy.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesnít mean it is good design.

If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time and money to fix it?

Offline MountainDon

  • Administrator
  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,516
  • Jemez Mountains, NM; that's pronounced HEY-mess
    • My 15.75 x 30 Jemez Cabin
Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2011, 10:21:40 AM »
John's note on the larger slider window deserves some thought. We love out 6 foot wide, 4 foot tall slider as well as the 5 ft x 4 ft one on the other side of the cabin. We situated the cabin to take advantage of the predominantly north or south winds on our ridge.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesnít mean it is good design.

If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time and money to fix it?

Offline duncanshannon

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 426
    • About Duncan
Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2011, 09:17:22 AM »
Hi - can you tell us more about using CAHDS 10? I want to buy some software but $500 reallyhurts. What things can't you do with the $99version?

Can you upgrade the files/plans down the road if you upgrade the sw to the 500$ version?

The drawings you made seem great...
Home: Minneapolis, MN area.  Land: (no cabin yet) Spooner, WI area.  Plan: 20x34 1 1/2 Story. Experience Level: n00b. 
Build Thread: http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=10784.0

Offline duncanshannon

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 426
    • About Duncan
Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2011, 09:21:43 AM »
"You could use John's 20x30 plan as a basis to modify. Key things to remember when modifying is that making a plan wider means re engineering.".

Is that for *any* width past 20 (on the 20x30 plans) i was thinking I joists could span to 24' and was wondering if that sort of mod would require other re-eng.
Home: Minneapolis, MN area.  Land: (no cabin yet) Spooner, WI area.  Plan: 20x34 1 1/2 Story. Experience Level: n00b. 
Build Thread: http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=10784.0

Offline hpinson

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 803
Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2011, 09:23:57 AM »
Adding 2 feet of length is a great idea John.  20x38.  Should clear up the issue you and dmanley point out. Still only 760 square feet.

Don, for sure about the larger windows and the slider. I've not yet figured  out how to modify windows in CAHDS 10, so these are the defaults for now.  There is probably a model that I have not found yet for just such a slider window. The libraries that come with the software are pretty good, and many models can be modified. I think the room windows would be more along the lines of what Mark had visualized rather than my rendering.  Large shuttered French style windows I would call them.  They should be large enough for egress from each room.

John, the idea of a small window placed high in the bunk room is brilliant.  I was thinking that this room would be stuffy. This dogtrot design is all about cross ventilation.

At the moment I'm tending towards an insulated slab foundation. Rodent control and Hanta virus are issues in the area. The fewer entrances for rodents, the better. I also really like the look and feel of polished concrete floors. Finding a contractor who can do that, well, or at all, in this area may be a real barrier.

I'll be ordering the 20x30 plans shortly.

----

I had some comments on purchasing this land, which might be of use to folks here.

I think we got a very good price, 46 acres with existing well, electricity, and phone for 75K.  For several reasons we had considerable bargaining power.

Asking price was 105K. The land had been on the market since about 2004 I believe.

First, check the assessed tax valuation on the land with your county. Does the asking price bear any relation? It this case, assessed value and asking price were the same.

This land has several derelict structures: a snow-collapsed garage, a snow-collapsed pole barn, and a 1980's mobile home in very bad shape.  Frankly I think these structures scared off potential buyers.  They will all need demolition. Because they were so poorly constructed, I don't think demolition will be too difficult or costly. I can either do it myself, or hire someone with a backhoe and dump truck to knock them down and haul away the debris. Probably 4-5K if I have it done.

Second, the boundaries were vague.  This property had never had a proper survey, and right away it was apparent that the boundaries as described in the deed were wrong.  One issue was that an abutting property owner had built their garage on this deeded property.  I believe such issues frightened buyers away.

We addressed these major issues in our offer.  We required a fully insurable title be transferred as a Warranty Deed. And we required a survey with the seller resolving all boundary issues.  We made an initial offer of 63K with the seller paying for the survey and us a well test, to which the seller countered with 74K and contingents, to which we both agreed.  The title company would not issue the Warranty Deed until the survey was complete and boundary issues resolved.  Needless to say, it was an expensive survey, but in the end well worth it.  The abutter gained a few acres which we gave up by Quitclaim at no cost to them, and they also gained a nice survey of their own property at no cost to them. This was an agreeable way to settle any potential boundary dispute, and we came away a the fully insurable title and legally defendable boundaries.

The well was another issue.  I was able to locate drilling records with the State Engineer. It had been drilled in 1988, and was very low flow (1/2 GPM) but apparently reliable at that.  I brought in a local well contractor to bail the well and measure output flow, and as of October 2010, the well is still producing the same.  I also checked for various contaminants-- coli, e-coli, TDS, metals, and petroleum.  We are at the edge of the San Juan oil patch, and hydraulic fracturing is on the increase, at a depth of about 3000-8000 feet.  The water tested good except for high coli, e-coli, which is common for an old well that is sitting, and the lead count was higher than normal which I am unable to explain (treatable via various methods).  The water table is demonstrably about 170 feet in this area, so even if this well gives up the ghost, I am fairly confident that a replacement can be developed if needed, and probably one with a higher output.

So in all, the property had a lot of problems, all that I feel that we dealt with.  It took a very long time to work through all this-- seven months from offer to closing. It also helped that the property was part of an estate, and the executor was eager to get rid of it. And happily, the real estate broker was an asset throughout the process.

I guess the take home message is that decent land can be had at a reasonable price if you are patient and willing to seek out viable land that has problems, and take on and correct those problems before the sale.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 09:56:04 AM by hpinson »

Offline John Raabe

  • Administrator
  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,549
  • Whidbey Island, WA
    • CountryPlans - About Us
Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2011, 09:26:08 AM »
Duncanshannon:

For a longer simple span on the width you can usually just have the lumber supplier resize the engineered joists per their tables. You would then spec that note on the plans. The actual span is between the insides of the sill plates.

Hpison:

With your CA program you should be able to edit windows by selecting the standard unit and opening it (on the right click menu perhaps?)
None of us are as smart as all of us.

Offline Squirl

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,154
Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2011, 09:45:44 AM »
BTW, most farmers I have seen built on posts to prevent rodents.  They put rat shields at the top of each post.  The concept is rats can climb up the post, but the slopped overhang prevents them from getting in the structure. It is a very old method.

Offline hpinson

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 803
Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2011, 07:17:42 AM »
I guess I'll start my build thread.

Lots of cleanup to do before we can build much. There are several collapsed buildings that need to be demolished and a lot of trash around, and we seem to be spending out time this summer just hauling junk to the dump.

In the meantime we made a fire pit. Important things first, and we will get a lot of enjoyment out if this.  I bought the 36" steel ring kit from Higley Metals: http://www.higleymetals.com/Fire_Pits.php   I'm happy with it, it is made out of good thick steel.  

Here's the pit:







The view is towards the National Forest which is to our north.  Next up is some sort of sun shelter or well restoration.

Offline muldoon

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,618
  • Muldoon, TX
Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2011, 08:22:17 AM »
Very pretty background, and it looks like you have a helper ready to assist with the toughest of jobs. 
Nice firepit, I have one that's not entirely unlike it. 

Offline MountainDon

  • Administrator
  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,516
  • Jemez Mountains, NM; that's pronounced HEY-mess
    • My 15.75 x 30 Jemez Cabin
Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2011, 05:12:17 PM »
Now you just need safe weather/fire conditions to be able to use it.    :(
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesnít mean it is good design.

If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time and money to fix it?

Offline hpinson

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 803
Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2011, 09:19:13 AM »
Don... did you get the big rain/hailstorm last weekend? Hopefully things will start to calm down and get a little wetter now.  You must be darned worried about what is going on in the Jemez.  The Young Ranch at Dixon burned, and I understand the Dixon Ranch owners home too.  And the cabins at Cochiti Mesa. It is both frightening and sad. It can all go in a heartbeat.

So, on to my build progress:

My next step is to revive the old well on the property.  It is 305' deep, with 180' static head, and output is a trickle at 0.5GPM, but reliable.  I'm about 800 feet from AC power, so solar is viable given the cost of copper cable.  It was tricky to find a pump system that would not stress the well.  I looked at many. Grundfos and Lorentz are out of this world expensive. Sunrotor looked good at first, but ended up being cost prohibitive because of the 300' of 4GA copper wire which needed to run from controller to pump.  

I ended up settling on the Simple Pump (motorized) and small direct PV solar rig which fits the application, and is competitive in price.  A single 210 Watt / 12V panel will run it, and it has the advantage of being hand pumpable as well. I will be pumping to a 500 gallon tank for now.  No battery storage will be involved. Just a simple PV direct pumping system and a switch in the tank to turn the pump off when the tank is full.  Wire runs are short and gauges are reasonable/ affordable.

I went ahead and purchased. It will be a few weeks before it arrives and I can install.

Simple Pump is available here: http://www.simplepump.com

I bought mine from a distributor, Ron Castle of SunshineWorks in Tennessee.

http://sunshineworks.com

Ron has been super helpful, especially with the solar rigging, and I would recommend working with him highly.

Lots of pictures of the install process are here:

http://sunshineworks.com/solar-powered-well-pump-installation-photos.htm

Offline MountainDon

  • Administrator
  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,516
  • Jemez Mountains, NM; that's pronounced HEY-mess
    • My 15.75 x 30 Jemez Cabin
Re: 20x36 Dogtrot in Western New Mexico
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2011, 05:58:12 PM »
Don... did you get the big rain/hailstorm last weekend? Hopefully things will start to calm down and get a little wetter now.  You must be darned worried about what is going on in the Jemez.  

Not even a quarter inch. A little of the slow release water, but again, not much.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesnít mean it is good design.

If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time and money to fix it?