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General => Owner-Builder Projects => Topic started by: ajbremer on May 09, 2011, 04:01:01 AM

Title: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 09, 2011, 04:01:01 AM
(The next paragraph was added: Wednesday - November 29th, 2017)

This thread starts below but I want to tell you all that since photobucket website ripped off everybody I've had to meticulously download my pics from photobucket, upload them to my own hosting package, and then do some fancy modifying. This is taking a long time, a little bit everyday so please be patient and I'll try to fix the whole thing eventually.


Monday - May 9th, 2011

Well, I guess I'll begin my build thread now - after being here around 5 months. I have yet to actually start building but I felt that now is a good time to start my thread.

I bought the Little House plans here at first but then I realized that my covenants and restrictions called out a minimum of 600 sf so I purchased the 20x30 1 1/2 plans also. Speaking of covenants and restrictions, I can go into page after page of what happened between our 'Home Owners Association' and us but for now I'll stick with this introduction and cover Home Owners Associations later.

We first looked at our little 134 x 75 lot about a year ago, it only cost us $1,000 and then we bought the lot next to it from a neighbor for $2,500 and it's mostly a ditch but still added a lot to our layout. We first began to clear it last fall (2010) and then had the power company put up a main corner pole and then a shorter construction pole.

The whole lot was full of vines and brush - to the point where you almost couldn't even walk through it without a machete or something. The only thing existing on it was a small shed that was built many years ago, we ended up tearing it down. I will post videos and pictures of the shed that no longer exists later.

Speaking of pictures, I have documented our adventure very well thus far. I have just as many if not more videos of our progress than I do pictures. I post them all on my youtube account at: http://www.youtube.com/allanbremer. As I post pictures here, I will put the month and year date (to the best of my knowledge) in front of the heading.

November 2010: Here is one of the earliest pictures of our lot with Robin, my wife, in the front.
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/land-clearing-01.JPG)

December 2010: Here is the shed way in the background.
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/12-10-2010-01.JPG)

December 2010: We start to clear land and put yarn down, on what we thought to be, our left boundary line.
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/12-10-2010-02.JPG)

December 2010: We clear a little more and run our yarn down our back boundary. You see the shed better here.
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/12-10-2010-03.JPG)

December 2010: We really tried to keep the shed but it just got in the way of what we wanted to do.
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/12-10-2010-04.JPG)

December 2010: Now we start to clear the land more and brush piles begin to appear.
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/12-18-2010-01.JPG)

December 2010: All the trees were riddled with vines like this.
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/12-19-2010-01.JPG)

December 2010: Time to put an old picnic table down and get a drink!
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/12-19-2010-02.JPG)

By the way, me and Robin have done everything here. We cleared the land, tore down the shed, all kinds of work. I'm really
proud of how hard my wife has worked...but then - we've done stuff together like this before. We are campers and pioneers at heart. One time me and her took off on a two-seater bicycle and went 4,600 miles across America (http://www.usforhim.com). So yes, we are campers, we could live in a tent and be satisfied. BUT, our countryplan 20x30 seems a little better to us - now that we're older!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 09, 2011, 05:17:33 AM
Monday - May 9th, 2011 @ 4:24am

Here is one of many youtube videos of us clearing our land on January 23, 2011: http://www.youtube.com/allanbremer#p/u/29/zLmwJFtS6MQ

Here we are taking some chopped wood from our lot to our other place 50 miles away.
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/12-26-2010-01.JPG)

We got an idea, let's get this 12x32 Lofted Barn Cabin and put it on our place while we build our house. The thing is a Derksen Building (http://www.derksenbuildings.com/) and it cost us $6,000. Derksen buildings are the most popular portable buildings in America, at least that's what I've been told. Them moving it to our lot was included in the price. Here's our building before they picked it up and moved it to our lot which is about 40 miles away. Ok, I know what your thinking: "$6,000 is a lot of money man, you could have put that into your house materials or something." Oh well, I did it anyway. I gave the guy $2,000 and I'm paying monthly on the rest BUT, we are going to have it payed off in about 9 months. It looks great in our woods, here it is on the sellers lot.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/1-22-2011-01.JPG)

Here's the low-down: The covenants and restriction by our Home Owners Association state that we can't live in this 'outbuilding'. We have to get a trailer with wheels and put it on our property in order for us to spend the night there. We had to submit our plans and intents and state that we would not spend the night in this building, in order for them to allow us to keep it on our land. They actually sent us a legal 'request' from a lawyer stating that we had to do this or move it off the lot. So we are going to get a small bumper pull trailer or something and sleep in it. We are allowed to temporarily take residents on our place for up to one year while our house is being built.

As I've said before, I've got a lot to say about the Homeowners Association (and so do most of my neighbors) but I don't want to take up space about that just yet.

We had to buy 30 blocks and 30 caps for the building to set upon.
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/1-24-2011-01.JPG)

My closest call with the chainsaw, it got my pants but not me, whew!.
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/1-25-2011-01.JPG)

Tearing down the shed was a major task. I wasn't really sure how to go about it so I just went around the bottom of the outside with the chainsay and cut the whole thing. Then I thought I would just kind of 'lift it off' but it was way heavier then I expected. I finally used a come-along and we tipped it over and then beat it up till it busted - it was a major job.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/12-10-2010-05.JPG)

We found a 'rat in the shack' just before we had to tear down the shed. Robin tried to get him out but he didn't want to go. I was taking the video while Robin was poking it with a stick. I was almost screaming like a school girl when it finally fell to the ground and disappeared from my camera view and went under my feet. Here's the youtube video of that:

http://www.youtube.com/allanbremer#p/u/5/_z59R9NDwyc

Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 09, 2011, 05:59:03 AM
January 2011: I got the perk holes dug and paid the perk man $140 to do the test. It passed and I'm going to need 310 feet of lateral line.
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/1-29-2011-01.JPG)

January 2011: We tore down the shed and moved the building in its place.
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/1-29-2011-02.JPG)

January 2011: Youtube video of lot preparation for 12x32 building.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR1uMLNrV_4

February 2011: First mow and building moved in onto the lot.
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/2-19-2011-01.JPG)

Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on May 09, 2011, 01:39:43 PM
Quote from: ajbremer on May 09, 2011, 05:17:33 AM

My closest call with the chainsaw, it got my pants but not me, whew!.
(http://mrmachinist.net/20x30/pics/1-25-2011-01.jpg)




That's what chaps are for. Chain Saw Chaps (http://www.benmeadows.com/shop/chainsaw-safety.htm?CID=RG0300_ChainsawChaps_SP&mkwid=sUwTGPNUb&pcrid=6841242658&gclid=CLOJ47nB26gCFQEKbAodeAd3Ig)

Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ScottA on May 09, 2011, 02:51:47 PM
Looks like you're off to a good start. That mini cabin will come in handy for storage and naps.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MushCreek on May 09, 2011, 04:12:40 PM
Better get a set of chaps NOW. Nick your femoral artery, and you'll bleed out before you can finish your last cigarette.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on May 09, 2011, 04:22:37 PM
Quote from: MushCreek on May 09, 2011, 04:12:40 PM
Better get a set of chaps NOW. Nick your femoral artery, and you'll bleed out before you can finish your last cigarette.

Not every chain saw injury leads to bleeding out but a friend who is a nurse in the Santa Fe hospital (closest ER to where our cabin is) sees a few leg vs chain saw encounters every year. They are very nasty cuts what with the dirt, oil, wood chips and the raggedness of the cut. All of them cost more than a pair of chaps. Mine are dirty as all get out and hot in summer. There are some summer weight ones available. It only takes a second for an accident. Add to the chaps eye and ear protection plus a hard hat to ward off those falling dead branches. I always get a shower of dead wood when dealing with a hung up tree.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 09, 2011, 05:55:45 PM
Thank you for all of the advice about the chaps guys, I'm going to get some asap. These look pretty good: Husqvarna Pro Forest Logging Chainsaw Chaps (http://www.amickssuperstore.com/Husqvarna_Pro_Forest_Logging_Chaps_p/husqvarna%20logging%20chaps.htm)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Tickhill on May 09, 2011, 07:53:40 PM
aj, we bought a Derksen building and use it for a storage shed, it is lofted on each end, much smaller, cheaper than yours but it seems to be well built. Can't wait to see more, Tickhill
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 09, 2011, 08:05:26 PM
Here are youtube videos of the 12x32 Derksen building being towed into our lot. If you've ever wondered how they move around a huge building like this then you need to see these videos.

At one time I thought that we were going to have to move the building 50 miles down the road to our other place, due to restrictions and covenants. I priced the move with this man and he said it'll be $1,000. Well, we found out that we don't have to move it but I do want to reposition it in the near future. The mover said that the minimum is $200 and that he could do it for the minimum because there was no road permit required. Here are the videos of the move.

Building Move 01: Building first comes off truck and heads up our road. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceqvn9T1_h8)
Building Move 02: Heads up our road and gets ready to turn in driveway. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fht9UKf4QhM)
Building Move 03: Takes the turn into our driveway and goes between some tight spots. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k91ve1yW43Y)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 09, 2011, 08:09:00 PM
Thanks for your comment Tickhill. Yes, we do love our Derksen building. Check out those videos above and you'll see what it was like for us to have ours moved. But, now that I think about it, you had yours moved didn't you?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Pine Cone on May 09, 2011, 09:36:05 PM
Quote from: ajbremer on May 09, 2011, 05:55:45 PM
Thank you for all of the advice about the chaps guys, I'm going to get some asap. These look pretty good: Husqvarna Pro Forest Logging Chainsaw Chaps (http://www.amickssuperstore.com/Husqvarna_Pro_Forest_Logging_Chaps_p/husqvarna%20logging%20chaps.htm)

Your project is looking great!   [cool]  Sorry about your homeowner's ass...(...ociation)

You might consider these chaps
http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=164+ORG+RG&catID=11604 (http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=164+ORG+RG&catID=11604)

These safety goggles
http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=35750&catID=12180 (http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=35750&catID=12180)

And these fabulous styling boots
http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=VW59+10&catID=12234 (http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=VW59+10&catID=12234)

I have the earlier version of the chaps and have used variants of the goggles for 30+ years.  The boots aren't cheap, but I really like my feet. 

Don't forget hearing protection as well. 

And keep those pictures coming... :)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Tickhill on May 10, 2011, 04:18:50 AM
Yes, it was quite a trailer they used. All they had to do was get it close to where you wanted it and the trailer pretty much did the rest, with operator pulling the levers!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Crappie Slayer on May 10, 2011, 09:43:08 PM
I had some land picked out near me and had paper work going on it and it fell through, so I grew up down there on Eufaula, and I am currently looking at locating a good lot for a cabin build.

How big is your lot, I know down there in certain places on the lake the lots have to be so big in order to even have a septic tank.

Are you getting a new style tank or an old style tank, and if what kind of tank you are getting what is the cost of the septic tank install,,, that is the only thing I am still a little shaky on is the cost of a septic system down in that part of the country.

maybe I will see you down that way one of these days, I am looking at lots on thurs and fri this week, but the prices vary greatly depending on what part of the lake you want to be on or near. 

take it easy

Chris
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 11, 2011, 05:32:08 AM
Hi Chris,

My lot is only 134 x 75 but then I bought the lot next to me so now my dimensions are 134 deep by 150. My total septic system cost me $3,000 and is the infiltrator leach-field system type. Here is a great video of how it works and the installation of it.

youtube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He6CAQr8X6E)

I passed my perk test (barely), I have hard clay about 2 to 3 feet under the sandy loam.

Also, your right about the prices varying greatly on or near Lake Eufaula, Oklahoma. Even a small lot like mine can go from $1000 to $75,000. A lot of it depends on your view and if your right on the water or not. Hope to see ya around someday Chris.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 11, 2011, 06:07:39 PM
Wednesday - May 11th, 2011

I thought I would add more pics Today:

1/28/2011: Robin on the inside of our Derksen 12 x 32 building, trying to make it like a home.
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/1-28-2011-cabin-inside-robin.JPG)

2/20/2011: Here you can see that we've cleared a lot more land. You can also see one of the perk hole flags in the foreground.
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/2-20-2011-cabin-land-cleared-in-front.JPG)

2/26/2011: Here you can see more of the cleared lot in front of the building.
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/2-26-2011-cabin-land-cleared-02.JPG)

5/05/2011: Here is the septic man digging the tank hole. (He got stuck in the soft ground right after this)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/septic-tank-hole-01.JPG)


5/05/2011: My septic man got stuck in the mud after he dug the tank hole. The ground was softer than we thought. I found a really good weather website for Oklahoma that even lets me know the soil moisture content of all the counties in Oklahoma. The measurements are at 2 inches, 10 inches, and 24 inches. Click here: www.mesonet.org (http://www.mesonet.org/index.php/weather/category/soil_moisture)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-05-2011-septic-man-stuck-01.JPG)

5/05/2011: When the septic man was just about done digging the tank hole, just before he was going to tackle the infiltrator digging, he called the tank dudes to come out with the tank. He had to send the tank back to its home because it was just too soft for the tank truck. I think he told me that the tank weighed 8000 lbs.
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-05-2011-septic-tank-neverwas.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 12, 2011, 05:39:03 AM
Thursday Morning - May 12th, 2011

Read this then check out the youtube video link at the end, it will help you to understand my situation. Any ideas or suggestions is always appreciated.

I put a ladder down into the septic tank hole just to get a better idea of the different layers of soil my lot contains. The first couple feet are sandy loam and then after that it's very hard clay. I'm concerned about how this type of soil will effect my foundation and I'm also wondering what type of foundation is best for this condition.

Water from nearby hills seem to soak the top layer of soil as it makes its way down through it. It seems to me that the top-soil of my lot can hold water and be saturated for too long (because the hard clay doesn't let it go down) and possibly be a bad situation for my foundation. I've been looking into French-drains lately and I think if I put one at the top of my lot, about 10 feet in front of the foundation, then that would move the water/moisture away from the soil at the foundation. I see that there is a French-drain system on page 3 of the 20 x 30 plans going around the stem-wall. I would also do that along with this other one near the top of my lot.

I'm also wondering if redirecting the water away from my lot by way of these French-drains will also make my septic lateral lines (infiltrator) system do a better job.

I don't think pier and beam would be a good choice for me. I wanted to do a stem-wall but now I'm wondering if a slab-on-grade would be the strongest. I really want a stem-wall because I like the idea of a crawl-space, the wood floor, and me doing the plumbing.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: SkagitDrifter on May 12, 2011, 11:15:33 AM
Great looking project so far AJ-

A curtian drain would do a lot to re-direct water away from the building site.

We have a large hillside behind our place and a pretty good slope down into the garage.
During snow melt we always had standing water in the crawl/garage.
I ran a curtian drain in front of the garage door and ran it all around the backside of the building.
Never had an issue with water again.
Good luck!
Tom

http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=5327.0

(https://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r158/Skagitdrifter/DSC03661.jpg)  
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: duncanshannon on May 13, 2011, 08:31:20 AM
hey aj-

congrats on starting your build thread!  [cool] [cool]  i'm very jealous but also excited to follow your progress from start to finish!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 13, 2011, 12:48:35 PM
Friday - May 13th, 2011

Was out at my land a few days ago. Robin and I cleaned up a big brush pile in a couple of hours. I sure am going to have
to get some granules to spread out over the land for tick removal, we have to inspect each other every time we go to our land.

Here is the brush pile before we started
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-10-2011-brushpile-01.JPG)

And here is a view from about the same spot a couple of hours later
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-10-2011-brushpile-gone.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on May 13, 2011, 01:26:34 PM
What do you do with the debris?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 13, 2011, 02:43:38 PM
Hi Don, I bought the lot next to me and it is 2/3rds ditch. I've been throwing all the brush in the ditch. But, one day soon I hope to burn it all. I most certainly hate having to handle it twice and I really don't like the burning idea. I thought about renting a chipper too.

One more thing Don, I've always wanted to let you know that I love that little bug that crawls around after all of your comments. I swatted my screen with the fly-swatter for about five minutes the first time I saw it.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on May 13, 2011, 02:51:55 PM
Chipper is a good idea if it is big enough for the materials.   We burn in winter when there is good snow cover.  
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 14, 2011, 07:58:52 AM
Saturday Morning - May 14th, 2011

Here is a recent picture (5/10/2011) of the very front view of our lot and some of the things we plan to do with it. I would like to hear any suggestions you may have and if what I'm thinking of doing is the right thing.

I want to make extensive use of this website and the builders associated with it, people who have built their place using countryplans plans. I don't want to build my place and then show everybody here what I've done. I want to ask people here what I should do, show them what I've been doing, and then show them that I've done what most people here suggested was the 'right-way'. Thank you all for your knowledge and time.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/frontlot5-10-2011.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 14, 2011, 11:00:08 PM
Saturday Night - May 14th, 2011

Today was a good day and another step in my building process was completed, getting a trailer.

Most peoples builds that I see show how they stayed in a trailer while they built their countryplan home. Well, I purchased a real nice Derksen lofted barn cabin (12x32) but kind of got in trouble with my Homeowners Association which lead me to submit my building plans and intents to them. They required me to do that or I would have had to remove my building (I think that's so stupid...but anyway). In my submitted plans I had to state that I would not spend the night in the building. The restrictions and covenants say that you can bring in a trailer and live there for up to one year while the permanent dwelling is being dried-in. I guess their line of thinking is that a trailer has wheels and can be moved very quickly. The portable building can be moved also but it is costly and could be time consuming.

So I went to looking for a travel trailer and as I looked through craigslist for a couple of days, I realized that they usually don't go for cheap and there are not many of them. It was hard for me to find anything under $1,000 that wasn't completely gutted or had major damage or had everything missing inside. Well, I found one and I'll tell you what I paid for it at the end of this post.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/trailer1.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/trailer2.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/trailer3.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/trailer4.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/trailer5.JPG)

I don't have any pics of the inside yet but it has everything in it, stove, frig, water tank and pump, shower, potty, sinks, sewage tank, and more. Yes, it needs some work on the inside but very little bit.

As I was looking through all of the cupboards I was pretty excited when I opened one and found the users guide to 3D Home Architect version 4. I know we use version 3 here but I'm sure I can glean a lot from this version 4 book. I take this as a sign of doing the right thing. Here's a pic of the book and after that I'll tell you what I paid for the trailer.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/3dbook.JPG)

Ok, I paid $250 for it!

I had to drive 160 miles to get it home and I had to use my small 4 cylinder Chevy S-10 but I did it! I'll update with more pics of the inside later, ya know, before and after pics of my trailer build?.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Texas Tornado on May 15, 2011, 04:09:52 AM
Wow what a deal!!!
I can only dream of finding a trailor at that price!!!
TT
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Tickhill on May 15, 2011, 06:32:31 AM
Great price on the trailer! The last used trailer I bought was a 16' with single axle and it was $850.00. Roof leaks are one of the largest concerns with a vintage trailer, around any openings. Cool Seal it real good and you should be able to at least double your money when you get finsihed.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 17, 2011, 05:41:46 AM
Tuesday Morning - May 17th, 2011

Went to the lot yesterday just to check things out. The soil is drying up but still has small puddles of water in the ruts that the backhoe created. Talked to my septic man and he said he would be out later this week to check it out and possibly get working on it again.

Well, while we're waiting for our lot soil to dry up we are working hard on cleaning the travel trailer that we got the other day.

Here is our $250 travel trailer at home. Now we're getting all of the appliances shined up and working, replacing panels, and just getting it looking good.
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-16-2011-Trailer-at-Home.JPG)

Here's a view from the back of the lot. You can barely make-out some water in the ruts.
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-16-2011-Lot-Rutts-01.JPG)

A little water in the septic tank hole.
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-16-2011-SepticTank-Hole-Water.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 18, 2011, 05:47:42 AM
Wednesday Morning - May 18th, 2011

I started into fixing up our 1978 travel trailer yesterday. I call it 'fixing-up' and not 'restoring' on purpose. I sure don't want to spend a lot of money and time restoring a travel trailer. I need to put my time and money in the steps involved in the main building process. BUT, I have to make the trailer livable and comfortable.

I know this is not a forum about travel trailers but I guess they may be considered an important part of the countryplan house building procedure. I see many-a-build here with a small trailer near the build site. All I am going to do is buy some thin paneling and some 2x2 studs and do minimum.

The other part of the trailer I have to tackle is the electrical system of which I know very little about. I have to re-hookup this power converter and try to get the system tied-in. I'll have to google 'travel trailer wiring' or something like that. If any of you can help me figure this thing out, I would be grateful for sure!

Anyway, here's just a couple of pics of what it looks like after I tore some rotted ceiling panel and wall off. You'll notice the rotted studs at corner locations. Again, I'm just going to make it livable and at the same time, I'll try to get all the appliances and connections working and then I'll take it to my build.

Here's the front upper half after I tore off the bad paneling and insulation.
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/trailer-front-upper-half-GOOD.JPG)

Here's a pic of the power-converter that I'm going to have to figure out.
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/trailer-power-converter-frontside-GOOD.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on May 18, 2011, 09:15:43 AM
An RV power converter is a device that takes 120 VAC and puts out 12 VDC. Those old ones will slowly cook a battery if left connected for long periods of time. At the same time most of those old ones do not put out enough current to do a really good (fast) job at recharging the battery.     Lots opf old RV's also have rotted framing because they develop leaks easy. Is the roof a sheet of aluminum? There is repair tape that is a lot like window/door flashing material that is great for fixing roof leaks. RV's with the outer skin meeting at corners also develop leaks there. The tape is good for wrapping corners and stopping them.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Native_NM on May 18, 2011, 12:09:09 PM
The other part of the trailer I have to tackle is the electrical system of which I know very little about. I have to re-hookup this power converter and try to get the system tied-in. I'll have to google 'travel trailer wiring' or something like that. If any of you can help me figure this thing out, I would be grateful for sure!


http://www.mikenchell.com/forums/index.php

There is a whole section on trailer electrical here.  Also a section on plumbing and gas.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: IronPatriotTN on May 18, 2011, 05:19:14 PM
You can't "live in your shed that you turned into a mini house, but you can move that small trailer out there and live?
Wow.
HOAs are so so stupid.  >:(
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Native_NM on May 18, 2011, 06:24:33 PM
Quote from: MountainDon on May 18, 2011, 09:15:43 AM
An RV power converter is a device that takes 120 VAC and puts out 12 VDC. Those old ones will slowly cook a battery if left connected for long periods of time. At the same time most of those old ones do not put out enough current to do a really good (fast) job at recharging the battery.     Lots opf old RV's also have rotted framing because they develop leaks easy. Is the roof a sheet of aluminum? There is repair tape that is a lot like window/door flashing material that is great for fixing roof leaks. RV's with the outer skin meeting at corners also develop leaks there. The tape is good for wrapping corners and stopping them.

For a temporary solution visit a mobile home supply house and buy a bucket of the white, elastomeric roof coating.  Coat all the seams.  May not be too pretty (but not too ugly), and will keep it dry.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: rick91351 on May 18, 2011, 08:49:37 PM
Quote from: IronPatriotTN on May 18, 2011, 05:19:14 PM
You can't "live in your shed that you turned into a mini house, but you can move that small trailer out there and live?
Wow.
HOAs are so so stupid.  >:(

Yes .... but ....  it is all for the good of the collective.  And it gives some people a purpose in life ratting on their neighbor.  Nice to have purpose.....





 
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 20, 2011, 05:14:57 AM
Friday Morning - May 20th, 2011

Well, I talked to my septic man yesterday about the condition of my soil and the possibility of finishing the job. He said he would have it done by the end of next week no matter what (that means by the end of Saturday, May 28th) - even if he has to put planks down. I guess that's what they do sometimes when the soil doesn't dry-up enough for them to get their equipment onto it.

I did go out to my land a few days ago and it is drying up and getting harder but very slowly. I can't do much out there now because of the huge tank hole that's been dug, the piles of dirt, and the ruts that have been left behind from his first visit 15 days ago - what a drag!

Because my soil is so susceptible to moisture content and seems to take so long to dry out because of the hard clay underneath, I'm wondering how important it is for me to get a French-Drain in, the one I was thinking of putting in front of where my foundation is going to go. Maybe I should do that after the septic system gets in and before my stem-wall is done? If it dries up really good maybe I can just wait till after the foundation is done?

Also, I remember reading an earlier post about a 'Curtain Drain', what's the difference between that and a French-Drain?

Here is a video of a drain system.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_O1eRVVPJOE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_O1eRVVPJOE)

I'm not sure if this would be called a French-drain or a Curtain-drain.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 23, 2011, 05:22:03 AM
Monday Morning - May 23rd, 2011

Well, it has rained a lot around here so I'm wondering if my septic man is still going to finish my septic system this week like he said. He said that he's going to do it even if he has to use planks (because of the soil saturation). Anybody ever seen a septic system put in where the equipment had to use planks?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 24, 2011, 05:47:54 AM
Tuesday Morning - May 24th, 2011

Went to our Rural Water District and paid for our water meter/start-up yesterday. My wife wanted to pay for it now and get it out of the way. (I thank God so much for my wife)

They gave us all kinds of paper work: A Service Agreement, Payment Information, By-Laws, Amendments to By-Laws, Septic System Approval Agreement, a bank draft form, and a little blue flag that we are supposed to set at least 5 feet into our border from the front.

The cost for us to get water was: $750. Most people tell us that that is a pretty good price, most districts require $1,000.

I sure do miss being at the place, it seems like I haven't been there in a long time. We love the way it sits in its own little woods and not in the open city with real close neighbors.

We've been trying to work on our travel trailer as much as possible also, well - I should say that the wife has worked on it a lot while I'm at work. As soon as the septic is done and the land is smoothed out and dry, the water meter is in, and the trailer is restored enough for us, I'll move it on the land and we will begin to live there while getting our old place ready to sell.

I'll soon be posting my 'Water Flag Planting' picture. Seeing that Memorial Day weekend is this coming weekend, I can't help but think of the Marine Corps War Memorial where those six men are planting the flag at Iwo Jima. Maybe I can call this our 'Water-Day' weekend where we plant our little blue water flag - just me and the wife. (I'll get a good picture of it but I don't think we'll be able to make a statue of it).
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: 325ABN on May 24, 2011, 07:04:59 AM
I gotta say that what you describe about having to deal with the HOA on YOUR land would surely of sent me packing down the road. So you can't live in or even stay the night in that nice little out building but you can move an old travel trailer onto the place and live in that?? It makes me wonder if you are going to have to submitt to a bed check by some HOA nazi. Just makes no sense to me.  d* d* d* ???

Heck you probley could have bolted a set of mobile home axels and a towing tounge onto the "shed" and called that a travel trailer. What could the HOA possibly say about that? Good luck to you!! [cool]
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 29, 2011, 09:21:01 AM
Sunday Morning - May 29th, 2011 @ 8:00am

We went to our annual HOA (Homeowners Association) meeting yesterday for the first time, wow, what a political scene. "...who'll second the motion, ok, all in favor say Aye. Now, new news?". Presidents report, treasurers report, voting, dues, new comities, this kind of stuff is new to me.

The by-laws, monthly dues, restrictions, and covenants of our HOA are not really all that bad compared to many others that I've read and heard about. I plan to put some restrictions and covenants online with generic names so that you all can see what they are and what people have to go through as new lot owners. That's who it affects the most, new people who are building and moving in. Once you have your place done (in-tune to the restrictions and covenants) or, if you've purchased a house within the restricted HOA, then to stay within the covenants isn't too hard of a deal - at least in my situation.

There is a lot to say about HOA's, good and bad. HOA's have taken away people's houses, caused fights and stress among neighbors, and monthly dues can become costly because of legal battles. On the other hand, in certain areas, if there was no rules...well, you can guess how neighborhoods could look and what type of people could be your neighbors, and how it could affect your taxes and land values.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 31, 2011, 07:56:33 PM
Tuesday Night - May 31st, 2011 @ 7:29pm Oklahoma, USA

We got a real good deal on a bumper-pull trailer that needed some work, only paid $250 and I show the pics of it a few posts up.

Well, new news: I just bought an RV. I guess I'll sell the bumper-pull. It's just a better deal for us and it has much better living conditions and it is in great shape for a 1985 model.

It's a Fleetwood Pace Arrow M-V 29' model with a Chevy 454 motor. It has 52,600 miles on it. Not a dent in it, the inside is very clean and well kept. There seem to be no issues with it and the last time it was driven was last year and I trust the person that's selling it to me. I compared this to many others over the internet and I'm pretty sure I got it for a great price. Others like it that I saw were anywhere from $4,000 to $8,000 and even above for immaculate ones.

Here is a few pics of it. I'll tell you what I paid for it after I pick it up. Does anybody else have a Pace Arrow close to this year?

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/rv-17.JPG)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/rv-15.JPG)

Now I just have to get my septic man to finish the job (when soil dries) and then you'll see pics of this on our land.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MushCreek on June 01, 2011, 05:13:36 AM
Too bad you're not closer- I'd pay good money for that little trailer! Here in FL, RV's are a dime a dozen. After a certain point, they practically give them away. Trailers, esp. small ones, seem to hold their value better. Nice rig!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 05, 2011, 04:42:12 PM
Sunday Afternoon - June 5th, 2011 @ 4:01pm Oklahoma, USA

Well, these are the busiest days of my life!

The real estate agent put 2 'For-Sale' signs at my house and I'm trying my best to get it all emptied out and cleaned up so that we can sell our house and move to our new lot and begin to build our countryplan home. I've been mowing, clearing out the garage, taking pictures of the place, weed-whacking, moving stuff to the new place, and the list goes on.

All the while we're doing this, we have been going out to our new lot and taking care of it. The septic man still hasn't completed the job because the soil still hasn't had a chance to dry enough to hold his big equipment. These two huge trees are always casting a lot of shade and blocking the wind and so it seems to take a real long time for the soil to dry-out. These two trees would also be in the way of our new countryplan home. They are right in front of it and we're concerned about the ice-storms that so often come to our part of Oklahoma.

Many times I've stood under those two trees and wondered how I can cut them down. A power pole and other trees were in their way and I knew that I just didn't have the right equipment and knowledge to safely do the job. While I was out there at my lot a few days ago, I called a local tree service and described how big the trees were so that I could get some kind of estimate. I thought, "ah, maybe they'll come out and I'll have them just chop the bottom, I'll do the rest and maybe they'll just charge me $50 or $100 bucks." WOW, they wanted hundreds of dollars a tree! I couldn't believe how much money it cost to take down a tree professionally.

Then, I found out that a friend of mine from church was the head of a Seismic clearing crew for years and he cut trees all the time and has a slew of tools and saws. Well, yesterday he came over and so did a new neighbor of mine and all four of us (my wife too) got the job done. We slung ropes over branches and pulled on them while he cut so that they would fall in the right direction. When it came time to cut the biggest tree, we attached the roped that was slung over a good branch to a chain that went to a neighbors hitch on his truck. When the tree was cut to the point of beginning to fall, he gunned the truck and pushed the tree in the right direction.

One of the parts that we thought was going to be the hardest was attaching the rope to something like a rock and then lassoing a strong branch many feet up so that we could tie onto it and then pull on it in the right direction causing it to fall in the direction of the pulling. A neighbor came over who had done this stuff before and he used an old round ball trailer hitch, I think it was a 2-inch ball. It worked great.

So now that those two trees are gone, I'm hoping that the place will dry up real quick and I'll get my septic in, then the water meter can come in, and then starts the countryplan home.

Here's before and after pics of the trees and check out the youtube video links I have at the end of this post:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-10-2011-2-Trees.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/6-05-2011-2-Trees-Gone.JPG)

Here's Sean cutting a limb with the pole saw:
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgPK1U2SXCk)

Sean cutting the first major limb off of tree number 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5pdGZ2d4RI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5pdGZ2d4RI)

Slinging a rope onto a branch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkWd3ST5mpU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkWd3ST5mpU)

Sean cutting large limb from tree number 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7hreA_NhZI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7hreA_NhZI)

Sean yelling out a late, 'Timberrrrr!':
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbK-RjOSwTo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbK-RjOSwTo)

Main summary video at end of day:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVs5fl9fNVk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVs5fl9fNVk)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: John Raabe on June 05, 2011, 05:12:03 PM
We get by with a little HELP from our friends!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 07, 2011, 05:37:41 AM
Tuesday Morning - June 7th, 2011 @ 5:30am

Called the County Commissioners office yesterday and asked them to come out and put in my 'free' Tin-Horn. I guess I'll have to pay for the tin-horn but they'll do everything else. Wow, that's still a great deal. I'm supposed to meet the guy out there at my place and he'll look and see where I'll need to have it and how many feet I'll need to have.

I think having that Tin-Horn at the front of my lot (which mostly slopes downhill from there) will help the soil dry-out quicker after heavy rains. The secretary at the commissioners office told me that the Tin-Horn runs about $4 to $5 a foot? Not really sure. Hopefully I'll be able to be there when they do it and get some pic/vids.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 09, 2011, 09:28:47 PM
Thursday Night - June 9th, 2011 @ 9:18pm

Ok, I drove the Motor Home 52 miles home and now it's at my place and I'll clean it up and get it ready for my countryplan lot.

It's a 1985 Fleetwood Pace-Arrow V30 (30 footer) with a Chevy 454 and a 400 tranny. It is in very good condition, runs great, no leaks, doesn't overheat and was an all around great deal at $3,200!

I haven't checked to see if the septic man has completed the job yet, the water company couldn't find the blue flag I planted for them today, and I'm in the process of buying another adjacent lot (my 3rd one) next to my 'ditch' lot.

Things are happening fast these days! Here's pics of Class A RV at  home:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/rv-al-01.JPG)



(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/rv-al-03.JPG)

Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 14, 2011, 06:08:23 AM
Tuesday Morning - June 14th, 2011 @ 5:19am Oklahoma

Septic tank was totally installed yesterday, hurray - finally!

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/septic-pic-01-6-14-2011.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/septic-pic-03-6-14-2011.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/septic-pic-05-6-14-2011.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/septic-pic-08-6-14-2011.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 18, 2011, 07:09:01 PM
Saturday Morning - June 18th, 2011 @ 8:05am Oklahoma

We finally got our water put in on our lot, hurray! They did it 3 days ago on a Wednesday afternoon. I made sure I took off work so that I could be out there with them for pics and videos and I also asked a lot of questions.

I have 60psi - wow, that's pretty good.

Also, I have 11 video links of the water job after the last picture. I do tend to take a lot of pictures and videos but you don't have to look at them all unless you want to. I mainly do it for my family but maybe some people might learn somethings, like how not to do it?

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/watpic19.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/watpic22.JPG)


Water Video 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_myonD8KkfM)
Water Video 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSXEOkAYZb4)
Water Video 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5px4XtG9DjM)
Water Video 4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKMfuwKw6es)
Water Video 5 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T_Ew-pIs2E)
Water Video 6 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HY9OtWpwCw8)
Water Video 7 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQk2VkPwhPc)
Water Video 8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBFUiaVYtDg)
Water Video 9 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdUO78LnTJw)
Water Video 10 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLENo0UvUmY)
Water Video 11 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2CtXzb5Ibg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Sassy on June 18, 2011, 09:57:48 PM
All the comforts of home  :)  Making good progress!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 30, 2011, 05:41:13 AM
Thursday - June 30th, 2011

We finally got the RV on the land right in front of where our countryplan house will be. I can't begin to tell you what I've learned about RV's in the last 3 or 4 weeks. It included me doing my first carburetor rebuild (which was successful).

In this first picture, the open dirt area to the right is where the house will go.

(One more pic coming soon)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/rv-on-land03.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/rv-on-land-04.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 05, 2011, 05:40:25 AM
Tuesday Morning - July 5th, 2011

We've been working hard on our land lately, in the 100+ degree sun too! We got a lot done over our 4th of July holiday weekend.

The first thing we had to do after getting the RV on the property was to install a 30 amp breaker in the construction pole box and then begin the process of burying about 50 feet of 10-gauge wire that goes to the RV. We tried running the RV with just the standard 20 amp breaker and a regular extension cord but it wasn't giving enough power for the A/C units to run and it wasn't safe. So, after reading the manual, I did the right thing.

Another step that was taken was to level the RV, wow, what a job. I've read where the newer and high-end RV's have their own automatic on-board leveling systems, well, ours don't so we had to use boards. One thing that we learned was that an RV frig won't work unless it's level. Anyway, we finally got it just about perfect and left it at that. It took a long time for the RV frig to get cold but we just gave it a whole day and both the frig and freezer work excellent.

The next thing we began this last weekend was to put up our dog-pen. A friend of mine wanted some wooden privacy fencing instead of the chain link fence that he had so he asked me if I wanted about 120+ feet of chain link fencing and all the poles and materials, I said yes and got some great fence for free. The concrete was still on the poles so I just left them that way and dug holes to fit them. At first I thought about pounding the concrete off the poles but it was way too hard, time consuming, and unsafe without goggles.

Now, I'm going to try my best to get the stem-wall foundation for our countryplan home finished before the next 8 weeks.

Here's a couple pictures and videos of what we did on our 4th of July weekend:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmM7OvIoNqc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmM7OvIoNqc)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/7-04-2011-kennel-closeup.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/7-03-2011-30amp-box.JPG)

Here's how NOT to check for voltage!

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/7-03-2011-checking-voltage.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 26, 2011, 09:02:55 PM
Just got through digging pier hole number one by hand. It took me about 2 1/2 hours in the 100 + degree temps here in Oklahoma.

I'm digging my four corner pier holes deeper and wider than the other 11 piers. I'm following my countryplans 20 x 30 but I'm adding 3 piers down the middle to match the sides.

I'll basically be following my plans from countryplans. gravel on the bottom, and ready-mix around a 6 x 6 PT post.

Hey, look at this youtube video of my first pier hole. I made it deep enough for the wife to fit into.

Here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1O_vasTw2I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1O_vasTw2I)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: astidham on July 26, 2011, 11:28:36 PM
that's a big hole Allan!!!!
you have made a lot of progress on your property, Congrats!!!!
I can't wait to see the rest.....
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: pmichelsen on July 27, 2011, 12:20:41 PM
Well done, I am doing something similar for my corners and the mid points of my stem walls. Originally we had talked about going down to bed rock then epoxy rebar into the bed rock but I think I am only going to go down 4-6' and then build cages that will tie to the bar used in the stem wall. I do not look forward to digging those; hopefully I can do it when temps are less than 100. I don't like to be anywhere near a shovel when it's that hot out.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: bayview on July 27, 2011, 08:46:51 PM
ajbremer:

   For some reason I can no longer see your pictures or avatar . . .    You may want to clear your cache and see if you can still view your own pics.

   No problems with other threads. . .    Just yours.

/.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: buster on July 27, 2011, 10:48:54 PM
I can't see the pictures either.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Sassy on July 27, 2011, 10:55:12 PM
Ok you did it, ya got me  d*  on your 1st video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmM7OvIoNqc  w/the how not to test the electricity  :D

I can see the pics just fine - everything is looking pretty comfortable.  That is a big hole you dug by hand.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: bayview on July 27, 2011, 11:41:53 PM
Quote from: Sassy on July 27, 2011, 10:55:12 PM
I can see the pics just fine - everything is looking pretty comfortable.  That is a big hole you dug by hand.

Pics might be in your cache . . .    When you previously had viewed this thread.   (?)

/.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 28, 2011, 06:15:07 AM
Sorry about my pictures not displaying, my website was down for about a day or so but everything is ok now.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 31, 2011, 07:52:18 AM

It's been over 100 degrees for weeks now here in mid-Oklahoma. I ended up putting up our canopy shelter and moving it over to each pier hole area and then placed a fan, chair, cold drink, and shovels under it. It worked out pretty good.

I'm digging the 4-corner pier holes about 3 feet deep and at least 24 inches square with no taper to the bottom. They are pretty deep and you can see from the previous youtube video link, on the post above this one, that my wife can fit down the holes.

I had to soak a few holes with water to soften them up for digging. I mainly used an old shovel. The only reason I used the post-hole digger was to get out the dirt when the hole got to deep for the shovel to do it.

I've decided to go with square tubing and angle iron for my piers. I'm following my countryplan 20 x 30 plans but not using the 6 x 6 PT posts and I'm also adding piers down the middle, the same number as on the sides, five. So there'll be 15 piers all together. The 3 on each end are going to be square metal tubing 4" x 4" - 3/16 thick primed. The other 9 piers are going to be 4" x 4" - 3/16 thick galvanized angle iron. I'm also going to coat the ends that are going into the concrete (ready-mix) with rubberized undercoating spray. I was told by a commercial building inspector that it would increase the life of the metal that's touching the concrete by decades. I've been told that the lime in the concrete eats the metal.

Here's a pic of my pier-hole dig area and after that is a pic of the undercoating spray:

(http://mrmachinist.net/20x30/pics/piertent.jpg)

(http://images.oreillyauto.com/parts/img/medium/mmm/orly_08883.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 31, 2011, 02:33:02 PM

I did a youtube video of how I dig my pier-holes with mostly just a shovel.

Here's the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gaoa6RsSVPI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gaoa6RsSVPI)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on July 31, 2011, 03:48:53 PM
Those are good size holes.  Too late now I guess but I have a couple of long steel digging bars; like a chisel on one end and a mushroom (for tamping) on the other. They work great for breaking/loosening up hard ground.

Like these...

http://www.oshkoshtools.com/products/digging%20Bars/dig_bars.htm

or this...

http://www.tractorsupply.com/axes-mauls/digging-bar-17-lbs-72-in-4412437

Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: rick91351 on July 31, 2011, 05:18:27 PM
I agree with Don.  I never thought to send you a PM or post something here.  I have been so busy at work I can hardly do anything else so it seems.  Bars are the quickest and easiest way to dig a hole.  Work the edges and toward the center and the center will take care of itself when you clean it out.  You did find however the best use for a post hole digger that I have ever found.  That is cleaning out the hole not digging it. 

That said.  You are doing a great job.  That is hard work especially with the weather conditions you guys are experiencing.  Stay hydrated and know when you have reached that point of too hot!  Stop and cool down!  It is dangerous when it is like it is now for you guys down there.  Heat stroke is serious and deadly...     
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on August 01, 2011, 03:55:18 AM

Monday Morning - August 1st, 2011

I'm basically finished digging my main 4 corner pier-holes. I knew about the long chisel/tapping bar and will be using one pretty soon.

My four corners were going to be the largest holes but now that I'm kind of used to all the digging tricks I might just make all the holes around the same size. There will be 15 piers all together.

Now it's time for me to start really getting into that 3D Home Architect software. What's funny is, I bought that 1st bumper-pull trailer just before I got the great deal on my 1985 Fleetwood PaceArrow Motor Home. I have since gotten rid of the bumper-pull trailer but in one of the cupboards of the trailer was a book: 3D Home Architect User's Guide to deluxe version 4.0. I own the deluxe version 3.0 but I'm hoping that most tutorials and instructions will work as I read the book and do what it says. Makes me wonder if the owner of that old trailer was into countryplans.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on August 08, 2011, 10:12:57 AM
Monday Morning - August 8th, 2011

Ok, I've now got my 4 main metal piers set on the corners. They took about 8 to 10 bags of quikrete apiece and each bag cost me $3.60.

I have many pics and videos showing all our work. Now I'm digging the middle piers in between the 30 foot length. Those piers are heavy duty 3" x 1/4" thick metal galvanized tubes. My 4 main tubes are the toughest and largest, I even over did it with the holes and made them extra deep and wide, all by hand, shovel, and post-hole digger. I'm spraying 'special' undercoating spray on all the metal that goes into the ground. O'reilly's had some brands of Rubberized Undercoating Spray but I used some better stuff.

Here are video links of my process on youtube but don't stop there, be sure to check out the pics below also.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhi_lynKK_k (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhi_lynKK_k)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUMR_xbzEYY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUMR_xbzEYY)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MbX6eEsh_U (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MbX6eEsh_U)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cgkBvwDyEQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cgkBvwDyEQ)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCFjH1Tx3yg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCFjH1Tx3yg)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZxVVg9QI3k (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZxVVg9QI3k)

Ok, here are some pics:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/StringingforMiddleBackPier.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/Pier3Poured.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/4PiersfromRearDitch.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/Pier1HalfDone.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/QuikreteandnewWheelBorrow.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Sassy on August 08, 2011, 04:15:00 PM
Those look pretty sturdy - bet your wheelbarrow will never look the same  :D  Lots of hard work doing all that by hand.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on August 23, 2011, 04:12:01 AM
Tuesday Morning: August 23rd, 2011

Been digging and setting metal piers daily, only 5 more to set.

Here's a pic of my Google Sketchup drawing showing the piers. My lot looks like I'm building a sky scraper:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20x30Sketchup.PNG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on August 23, 2011, 06:11:27 AM
Tuesday Morning August 23rd, 2011

I now have pier hole number 11 half dug, only 5 more metal piers to set!

I uploaded about 5 new videos to youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jeNWLow_J4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jeNWLow_J4)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTJ2BwLQrPc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTJ2BwLQrPc)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAFDcOY9lVs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAFDcOY9lVs)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttgljpOM8kM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttgljpOM8kM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RggTFQr0mv4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RggTFQr0mv4)

Here's a few more pics:

Getting ready to pour pier 10
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/Readytopourpier10.JPG)

10 Pier Holes from the back view
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/10piersfromtheback.JPG)

Cats are inspecting my job on pier 10
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/pier10a.JPG)

Here's a pic of the first Angle Iron Pier
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/FirstAngleIronPier.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on August 24, 2011, 06:15:58 AM
Wednesday Morning, August 24th, 2011

More Pics of Progress:

Here's Pier #11 right after I sprayed it with the undercoating:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/Pier10AngleIronwithPermatexUndercoating.JPG)

Here's the self-drilling/tapping screws that will screw the 2x12's into the iron:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/RimJoistNails3andahalfinchb.JPG)

Here's the 'stringed-up' exact center of the house where pier 11 is:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/Pier10ExactCenterofHouseb.JPG)


And here is a good view of all 11 piers, only 4 more to go!

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/10PiersinBestView.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on August 24, 2011, 09:17:03 AM
How high up the piers will the structure be??

Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on August 24, 2011, 09:41:41 AM

The bottom of the 2x12 joist will be around the 42" to 47" mark, I want it high.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: rick91351 on August 24, 2011, 10:55:28 AM
Quote from: ajbremer on August 24, 2011, 09:41:41 AM
The bottom of the 2x12 joist will be around the 42" to 47" mark, I want it high.

Flooding?  Room with a view?  If Lord comes I'm already half way there!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on August 24, 2011, 12:09:59 PM
That is high!  Plans for enclosing the area between the piers and under the main floor?  Bracing method. I could wait and see but I'm curious about this.

Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on August 24, 2011, 08:52:45 PM

Wednesday Night - August 24th, 2011

Hi Don,

Ya, that is kind of high. The lowest floor joist to ground dimension will be 37" and the highest will be around 47". My lot goes downhill about a foot per 20 foot. I've had some thoughts about how I'll close it in but nothing for sure yet. I'll definitely take suggestions.

I like the idea of all the room under the house to store stuff and I also plan to bolt some metal walls to enclose an area under the house for a storm shelter and we'll enter it within the house. As far as bracing, I'm not worried about these metal piers needing to be braced. Yes, I could go ahead and brace them but the strength of these piers, how deep they are in the ground, and how much concrete I used, I believe that it's way stronger than it'll ever need to be. I also figured that if the house below can be ok without bracing then I have nothing to worry about.

(http://www.mrmachinist.net/stilt-house-in-trees.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on August 25, 2011, 07:00:47 AM
The pics have been so large I haven't been following this thread so I'm not really up on what sizes, etc you are using. I notice you are saying you'll screw the 2x12's to the iron. I'm hoping these are only to hold them in place but that the wood will be sitting on a welded on angle or plate. Hanging on bolts or screws really weakens the members and promotes splitting. Wood design standards limit the distance between fasteners in that configuration to 5" apart, we've found that spacing a fastener high and low on a wide board causes splitting as the wood changes moisture content.

With steel posts, welding some bracing or creating a moment resisting frame would be quite easy. I don't believe anyone would run into that treehouse in a storm. A neat place to watch the scenery for sure but that will be a short lived structure. When the hundreds of feet of roots that braced the trees to the soil begin to rot the bracing will be gone and like any other dead tree, they'll tip over.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on August 25, 2011, 09:32:30 AM
FYI, by large image I believe Don_P is referring to the file size more than the actual physical dimensions. File size can be reduced while maintaining a large physical size image by saving as a JPG with more compression / lesser quality. When viewed on a monitor screen image quality, and file size, can be greatly reduced with minimal image degradation. When a thread has several images with file sizes in the 500+ KB range it takes a very long time to load over a slower connection.


I also had concerns regarding the mention of those fasteners being used to support the structure as in being used to secure the 2x to the steel in load carrying. Another is the height. Now I am not a "steel guy" nor am I an engineer, but I get to wondering every time I see piers/posts with more or as much sticking out of the ground as there is in the ground. These piers are not only supporting the building vertically, but they are what will be holding the structure in place when the wind comes along striking the long wall at 90 mph. Like I said, I'm not an engineer, but I wonder.  G/L
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on September 07, 2011, 08:12:26 PM
Rim Joist and middle girder ready for floor joist. All is 2 x 12 treated.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/middlejoistsupportdone9-05-2011.JPG)

And here's my sketch-up drawing:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/SketchupDrawingofFloorJoist.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on September 07, 2011, 10:26:05 PM
I don't know if you want me to stop asking questions, but I have questions about those 2x12's?

Looking at the long side, 30 feet long, that means 7.5 feet between supports.

Table R502.5(1) in the IRC is a table for determining girder spans for exterior load bearing walls. These 2x12's will be under the long side walls, which with a standard gable roof makes the long sides load bearing, 25% of the weight of the structure and contents.

For a 20 foot wide building, with a ground snow load of 30 pounds, the minimum amount the charts begin with, the tables show that for a structure with the girders supporting a roof, a ceiling and one center bearing floor, TWO 2x12 would be required for an 8'1" span.

The same table for a structure with roof, ceiling and two center bearing floors indicates the same double 2x12 could span a maximum of 6'8".

It would seem that a single 2x12 on the sides would come up short on load carrying capacity. The table has data for 50 and 70 psf snow loads as well. If we extrapolate down to 10 psf that only gains 9 inches of extra span for the reduction in snow load.

Maybe I'm missing something here?

What else is planned to make this capable of carrying the load safely, especially considering your plans are for an extra half story, an extra floor?



Not to mention that I believe Don_P's comment regarding the welded steel supports would be a really good idea too.

G/L
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: pmichelsen on September 08, 2011, 09:17:30 AM
I would love to see some pieces of angle welded up under those 2x12's to help support them. Makes me nervous thinking about the amount of weight supported by screws and/or bolts.

However it is looking good and I'm sure you can't wait to start building and leave digging in the past.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on September 08, 2011, 11:59:30 AM
Thursday - September 8th, 2011 @ 11:52am

Thank you Don and pmichelsen for those great comments! I do plan to put bolted or welded angle iron up to help support full weight on those outside rim-joist and I can also (at a later date) add bracing at anytime.

Be aware that those 2x12 rim-joist on the sides are not going to support the whole house weight. I'm putting 2x's down flat on the floor as a sub-floor and then sealing it for the weather for building and weather purposes. Then later I'll come in and put my permanent floor on.

All those tall metal piers will be cut off flush and that's what the sill and walls will sit on.

The weight of the sill plate and the walls will actually be on top of the metal piers. So most of the 'upper' house will actually be on top of the piers and not those 2x12 rim-joist.

Also, when I do the outside sheathing, it'll come down to the bottom of the rim-joist and the whole thing will be one unit. Those charts you refer to may not account for the way I'm doing this?

Does that sound sound? I can add another 2x12 to all inner sides also, that wouldn't be much trouble.

Any help would be appreciated from you guys.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on September 08, 2011, 01:57:54 PM
Quote from: ajbremer on September 08, 2011, 11:59:30 AM
I do plan to put bolted or welded angle iron up to help support full weight on those outside rim-joist and I can also (at a later date) add bracing at anytime.

In my opinion, and even more so from my personal experience, putting off something like welded in place support sections or bracing till later makes for a more difficult retrofit installation at the later date. I am in the process of planning a structural improvement retrofit right now. I'm not ready to go into that right now, but it is going to be more work than if it had been done in the first place, and it likely won't be as good as if it had been included in the initial design and build. But I know more now than I did three years ago, so I'll chalk that up as a learning experience.

And that doesn't even get into the area of "what if a problem develops because of the delayed installations?"

The idea behind the supports under the rim.girder is to remove the stress points created by the relatively thin screws through the wood. IMO, there should probably be more concern about the stress on the wood than on the screws. Wood is a wonderful, but imperfect, material. If the 2x12 was a steel component its nature would be homogenous throughout. A piece of wood may have no visible flaws but can develop flaws later after the structure has been in use for a time and the wood dries out.

IMO, welding is superior to bolting. Bolting creates another point load whereas welding spreads the load out. A bolt through a hollow tube may also deform the tube walls if the bolt/nut are tightened too much. At least it's something I'd be concerned about.

FYI, the loads on the first pier at the end of each long wall girder is the lightest load in most pier and beam foundations. The second pier in from the ends is usually the highest loaded pier.



QuoteBe aware that those 2x12 rim-joist on the sides are not going to support the whole house weight.   ... All those tall metal piers will be cut off flush ....  
Those 2x12's will be supporting more weight than you may think. I'm not an engineer but here is what I see. (I assumed the posts would be trimmed off.)

#1; the floor joists are all connected to the sides of the 2x12's on the long sides. The floor weight will be directly transferred to those 2x12's. The center 2x12 will be supporting one half the floor load.
#2; the wall loads are spread out along the entire length of the wall. Engineering calculations assume evenly spread loads, unless point loads like heavy bookcases, gun safes and the like are specifically designed for. The wall and bottom plates is not perfectly rigid. While it is true that in the end the piers are supporting the entire load to the ground, there are loads being applied to the span of 2x12 between each pier. Coupled with the floor loads the loads from the roof down through the walls will be acting on the 2x12 rim in between piers as well as on the piers. That loading may exceed the safe load carrying ability of a single 2x12.



QuoteI can add another 2x12 to all inner sides also
That could help but does not improve the support for the floor joist ends. Those loads would still be on a single 2x12. That's getting into non prescriptive methods. I can't say for certain there is a problem there but I suspect there may be.

Quote....when I do the outside sheathing, it'll come down to the bottom of the rim-joist and the whole thing will be one unit. Those charts you refer to may not account for the way I'm doing this?[/size
Having the structural sheathing extend from the top plate down covering over and attached to the rim is an excellent technique. That adds anti racking to the walls and makes the structure from the rim up stronger.

As for the tables I believe they have been developed with engineering science and may also draw upon what has been shown to work and not work in real world practice. If/when we move outside that information we may be treading new ground. That's why we will often find the cover your ass phrase, "according to accepted engineering practice" inserted into design discussions. and optional methods.


QuoteI'm putting 2x's down flat on the floor as a sub-floor....
I'm not sure I follow the reasoning behind that?  I believe sheet subfloor adds more strength to the floor diaphragm, makes the floor unit stiffer in the x - y plane (north-south, east-east). And costs considerably less. If weather is a potential issue Huber Advantec does have excellent weathering ability.  

Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: pmichelsen on September 08, 2011, 03:41:34 PM
Honestly, had it been me I would have cut all of the posts level and then welded some type of saddle to the top that a double 2x12 would rest in and could be bolted to. That is how I plan on supporting my deck, unless I get really crazy and use I-Beams.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on September 08, 2011, 09:19:58 PM
I agree, and it should be redone that way. The pattern here is shown in several texts with a circle and diagonal slash through it. The girders need to be sized appropriately and supported rather than hanging. There should not be a row of screws widely spaced attaching the girders to the steel. The wood will split along the grain as the wood dries and shrinks and the screws and steel refuse to move.

Yes, assemblies are stronger than the sum of their parts. This is the realm of engineers. Prescriptively, and every engineer I've dealt with, you should be able to point to an element and show that it will safely carry the load. If there are other effects at work either calculate and show them capable of supporting the load or do it the simple way and consider any extra you can build in as gravy. If you try to get fancy you'll blow a detail and those increases are gone. Board sheathing is fine, it should be laid diagonally to triangularize the framing. I use Advantech and paint it with porch floor paint or similar, quicker, holds up well, usually cheaper and the floor diaphragm is stronger.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on September 14, 2011, 06:07:48 AM
Wednesday - September 14th, 2011

Thanks to everyone who has concern about my build, you have made me rethink a few things and reassured me of what I was planning to do anyway.

The main concern that many have had about my build is that the rim-joist and middle girder was 'hanging from' and not 'sitting on' my metal posts, that they are just a single 2x12 and not doubled, and that they are 'just' screwed in. All rim-joist and middle girder will be doubled with 2 2x12's. Also, my metal post have now been cut off flush and I'm using the extra 4x4 galvanized angle-iron to make brackets that will be attached to the metal posts and these will be adding to the strength of the 'hanging from' and 'sitting on'.

Keep in mind that the screws that I used to 'hang' the 2x12 rim-joist and middle girder to the posts are TEKS Wood to Metal Fasteners. The particular ones that I've used are the 1/4-20 x 3" #3 Phillips head. These screws are made to go through 2x's into steel framing. I used 5 evenly spaced screws where every 2x met a steel post. These screws have a pull-out value of 1,803 lbs and a shear value of more than 2,820 lbs. Those screws are not going anywhere! If anything moved it would be the 2x12's. As far as my 2x12's, I got this wood from a house builder friend and it has been sitting and has done most of its moving and bowing. I used the best boards for the rims and middle girder.

After I completed the single 2x12 rim-joist around the outside and ran a single girder down the middle, I nailed another 2x12 onto the middle girder to strengthen it. There are 3 post sticking up in the middle so I used 3 single - 2x12x20's running across each post. I used the screws to attach them to the metal and also nailed the ends of them as usual. The rest of my floor joists are not single 20 footers but lapped 12 footers. They are on 16" centers but the lapped joist are offset the width of a 2x. I'm using joist hangers and nailing the floor joist through the single rim-joist. When I'm done with all of the floor joists I will then nail another 2x12 all around the rim in order to double their strength. After that, I will cut and grind sections of those angle-irons and screw them into the post underneath each rim post for more support.

I have had a building inspector and a home builder come out and they both like the way it's being done and totally believe that there will be no problem with the strength of using this method.

Please continue the comments and suggestions, I would like to always post here about what I'm doing because you guys have 'been there/done that' and this is my first build.

Here are some pictures:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/floorjoist2lap.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/postcutoffs.JPG)

Here I'm experimenting and trying to jack out a bow condition. It worked a little bit but I've learned that it's a lot easier if you just use a straight piece of wood in the first place.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/floorjoist-1stsectionwarpfix.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on September 15, 2011, 04:19:48 AM
QuoteThanks to everyone who has concern about my build, you have made me rethink a few things and reassured me of what I was planning to do anyway.

The main concern that many have had about my build is that the rim-joist and middle girder was 'hanging from' and not 'sitting on' my metal posts, that they are just a single 2x12 and not doubled, and that they are 'just' screwed in. All rim-joist and middle girder will be doubled with 2 2x12's. Also, my metal post have now been cut off flush and I'm using the extra 4x4 galvanized angle-iron to make brackets that will be attached to the metal posts and these will be adding to the strength of the 'hanging from' and 'sitting on'.

Keep in mind that the screws that I used to 'hang' the 2x12 rim-joist and middle girder to the posts are TEKS Wood to Metal Fasteners. The particular ones that I've used are the 1/4-20 x 3" #3 Phillips head. These screws are made to go through 2x's into steel framing. I used 5 evenly spaced screws where every 2x met a steel post. These screws have a pull-out value of 1,803 lbs and a shear value of more than 2,820 lbs. Those screws are not going anywhere! If anything moved it would be the 2x12's. As far as my 2x12's, I got this wood from a house builder friend and it has been sitting and has done most of its moving and bowing. I used the best boards for the rims and middle girder.


Some form of bracket will improve things. I'm going to dissect this a little not to be mean but in the hopes that anyone considering this will have more to think about.

A 1/4" 4x4" steel tube 5' long used as a column has an allowable load capacity of 86,000 lbs if the load is placed "concentrically", squarely on top of the post. If the floor system were sitting on the posts we would be simply talking about the bearing strength of the wood.

Hardened structural screws are good things, the manufacturer is giving a shear value of ~2800 lbs/ screw, but, as you recognize, the wood is probably the weak link here. At 1/4" diameter in southern pine, perpendicular to grain, not even 200 lbs/ screw allowable shear. You have 5 in a row, it doesn't work this way, you're violating other rules, but call it 1,000 lbs allowable capacity.

Because of connection design that bearing point has dropped from 43 tons capacity to less than a half ton, that is one heck of a hit. Generally it is easy to design the members, it is the connections that require the most thought.

As you go from "hanging on" to "sitting on" the wood is still going to be most tightly fastened in the hanging on position. It isn't going to know it's sitting on until it slips down enough to fully bear on whatetever bracket you fabricate. Watch for splitting around the screws as you load up and if you see any pull the offending screws and let it sit down on the new seat before reattaching to the post. Figure up the loads and make sure the new seat has the capacity to bear all loads from above. The post is now loaded eccentrically, on one side, rather than concentrically. This reduces capacity, the further you step out from the post the greater the strength reduction.

The concept of using steel here has great potential, this is just food for thought for others considering this method.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: texasgun on September 15, 2011, 09:31:26 AM
Al I  have done several metal buildings and have thought about using pipe or tubing just like you did and still think it looks like a great option if you noticed my location it is West Texas and in my area we just dont use wood to ground contact anything(I know some people still use cedar posts for thier fence but with pipe so cheap I dont know why) it looks to me your possible problem of the screw to wood conection could be greatly inproved by the wood sitting on something. At the point you are at you could just go buy some metal either heavy angle,square,or chanel and run it full length under the 2xs and weld it to your posts. If you dont weld call someone that puts up buildings and has a mobile rig it will be reasonable and also see if they have any leftover metal alot of time they do and those guys are use to making deals and are very familar with metal fabrication. If you did this all the way around your building I think it would be very stout and would brace all your posts and make them all act as 1 structure. Heck if it was me I would do it under the 2xs and the again a couple of inches off the ground and use colored metal to close in under your building that would match my roof. I might be completly out of line offering anyone advise since I am not anykind of enginer I just build everythind I do extra stout so problems dont happen down the road. I used those screws on my last project and have put lots of trailer bottoms in with them but for your metal connection under your 2xs I would weld it will be lots stronger. ::)After building a couple of large buildings and a house I have found there is lots of places to save money doing it yourself but the foundation is not 1 of them over build and you will never be sorry :)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on September 17, 2011, 12:21:10 PM
Saturday Afternoon - September 17th, 2011 @ 12:19pm Oklahoma, USA

Here is a pic of some bracing that I've made out of the cut off galvanized pieces that were left over. There will be at least 2 braces at every post.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/brackets.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on September 18, 2011, 08:07:31 AM
Sunday Morning - September 18th, 2011

Basically got the floor joists done. Now I'm going to band around the outside with another layer of 2x12's treated in order to make them 'double-girder' - just like I have the middle girder. I guess in my case, the rim-joists are also the girders.

Then, after that, I'll do middle bridging with straight pieces of 2x12's and then the cross bridging. When that's done I will add the angle iron brackets at all post locations like you see in the pic above.

Then, I'll lay down 2x12's on the floor. Apparently nobody does it that way because at that point they usually put down 4x8 sheets of something as a sub-floor and then later put something on that.

I'm laying 2x12's on the joists because:
#1) I've got the wood and am saving money because I don't have to buy any 4x8 sheets
#2) It'll make a stronger floor system because of the thickness
#3) They will lay on top of the posts at 15 locations so that the rest of the weight of the building will not be totally on the floor system but on top of the posts.
#4) It's pressure treated and I'm also going to coat it with a sealant so that the weather won't hurt it if the build takes its time.

Question: Some people have told me that when they build the walls, they don't cut out the window and door spots till after they have it all up because it's easier. Is that a waste of wood, is it easier, what would be the best way for me since I'm doing it by myself?

Any comments and/or suggestions is always welcomed. Here's the floor joists pic:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/joist.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: RIjake on September 18, 2011, 08:25:38 AM
Al, your build certainly is coming along!  Please don't take this the wrong way but I just reread your thread and I'm trying to figure out why you went with the steel instead of wood. 
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: dug on September 18, 2011, 08:46:42 AM
QuoteQuestion: Some people have told me that when they build the walls, they don't cut out the window and door spots till after they have it all up because it's easier. Is that a waste of wood, is it easier, what would be the best way for me since I'm doing it by myself?

You have the choice of sheathing the walls either before or after you stand them up. There are pros and cons to both methods, one being easier to raise the lighter unsheathed wall and the other is much easier to apply the sheathing while the wall is on its side. Either way I believe the sheathing is best applied continuously and openings cut out later. I think it makes for a stronger wall and the waste is not much in the grand scheme of things, usually you can find homes for the the scraps in other areas.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: RIjake on September 18, 2011, 09:11:20 AM
Quote from: dug on September 18, 2011, 08:46:42 AM
You have the choice of sheathing the walls either before or after you stand them up. There are pros and cons to both methods, one being easier to raise the lighter unsheathed wall and the other is much easier to apply the sheathing while the wall is on its side. Either way I believe the sheathing is best applied continuously and openings cut out later. I think it makes for a stronger wall and the waste is not much in the grand scheme of things, usually you can find homes for the the scraps in other areas.

Plus, by applying the sheathing while it is laying down you can square up the walls and the plywood will keep it square and rigid! 
Dug's right about the scraps.  Who doesn't need a few pieces of plywood lying around just in case?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on September 18, 2011, 09:53:27 AM
Do remember when using boards for floor or wall sheathing that they should be put down diagonally to triangularize the flat plane they are on. That same type of triangularizing, bracing, needs to happen between the posts and your floor system to provide racking resistance.

I really like texasgun's idea for anyone considering this. If it were designed with C channel rims and girder they have load and span charts that are easy to use and welding those to the posts would provide plenty of rack resistance. Joist hangers can be top hung over a wood plate and face welded to the C channel and then the floor could be done conventionally from there.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on September 18, 2011, 12:52:53 PM
Sunday Morning - September 18th, 2011

Thank you all for your great information.

The reason I went with metal piers and am doing my build high like this is because I liked the idea of no rotting and no insects in the metal. As far as rust is concerned, the metal I've used is galvanized or primed and I also sprayed Permatex Rubberized Undercoating to the bottoms of each post so the concrete wouldn't be able to mess with the metal. The main reasoning behind the floor being so high is so that I can have some storage room underneath and also to make it very easy to build with plenty of room underneath for plumbing and other things.

As far as my question about the walls, what I actually wanted to know was if it is ok to nail all the wall joist to the top and bottom plate and then when all walls have been raised, then cut out the locations where windows and doors will be, then do cripple studs, king and jack studs, etc.. I wasn't thinking about the sheathing in my question but I'm glad it's been mentioned. That way the walls would go up faster and after seeing the view, I could then decide or change my mind about where exactly I wanted a window or door to be.

I'm thankful for Don_P about reminding me of the 45 degree angle of the sub-floor boards on the joists. I saw this real good Navy video over at youtube about doing exactly what I'm doing now. It shows floor joists going in and then the bridging, sub-floor, walls, etc.

I'm confident that my rim-joist will have no problem holding up my build with 2 angle-iron brackets screwed in 5 spots each at the 15 post locations like you see above. I agree that welding angle-iron under each post running the whole length of all the rim-joist would be great, overbuilding, and take more load but I just don't think I have to go that far. Remember that my 20x30 countryplans don't even show a middle girder on page 1 of my foundation plan. I've already overbuilt by putting a middle doubled 2x12 girder attached to metal piers...haven't I?

I'm thankful for all of your patients with me here, I am a beginning builder. I'm telling the truth when I say this, 4 months or so ago I wasn't exactly sure what the difference was between a joist and a stud...no lie! I'm totally consumed with this build. I don't do any of the things I used to do in life - in my 'pre-countryplan' days. All day long I read about how to do stuff, ask everybody all kinds of questions at work, and I'm all over youtube watching build videos. I will tell anybody, countryplans.com is the best place to be to build your house - hands down!

One of my problems is that I'm a machinist with an eye for .001 of an inch. I've been out there building with my digital calipers! Oh ya, by the way, I've measured the thickness of many 2x12's and none of them are 1.5", they range from 1.330 to about 1.44. Also their height differs quit a bit here and there 11 1/4, 11 1/8, 11 3/8, etc.

Thanks again for your comments, all help is always appreciated.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on September 18, 2011, 01:30:13 PM
Quote from: ajbremer on September 18, 2011, 12:52:53 PM


As far as my question about the walls, what I actually wanted to know was if it is ok to nail all the wall joist to the top and bottom plate and then when all walls have been raised, then cut out the locations where windows and doors will be, then do cripple studs, king and jack studs, etc..

The openings should be planned out ahead of building. Once you have the subfloor in place you can walk around and decide where to place windows. Then draw it out and build in all the studs in all their flavors, all the headers, etc. Squaring and sheathing flat of the deck is nice but does make a heavier wall to raise. It could be done in sections; just plan it out beforehand.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: texasgun on September 18, 2011, 01:58:20 PM
Al when people talk about cutting the windows and doors out after they stand the walls the openings are usually framed out completly on the deck and sheathed over and cut after they are stood up. This allows the wall to be stiffer and allows you to be "dried in" quicker openings can be cut later in the build when you are ready to install the window or door. The reason I sugested running metal all the way around under your 2 x 12s is it would better tie the structure, give something to rest on and would provide bracing that you are going to need when you install the large wind sail (house)on top of your tall posts.I feel the cost of metal to wrap around your foundation and tie it together will be a small cost compared to the overall cost of your build. Most mistakes can be repaired in a build but foundation problems effect everything and are often very expensive or impossible to repair once a house is sitting on top of it. I still thing with these fixes your foundation will be very stout.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on September 18, 2011, 08:32:46 PM
Thanks for your feed back texasgun and MountainDon.

Yes, I talked with a guy tonight and I lined up getting 130 feet of 3" angle-iron to have welded all around under the rim-joist. Thanks guys!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on September 18, 2011, 08:52:47 PM
Hopefully he is aware of the hazards the welder and bystanders can be exposed to from the zinc galvaizing at high welding temperatures. Best to grind it away first I think.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on September 18, 2011, 09:03:43 PM
While he is there, I've drawn in red on your pic where it would be good to have bracing from the posts to rim or post to joists to help triangularize and brace the posts.

(https://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x109/windyhilll/joist.jpg)

In brown I drew in the direction sheathing boards should be laid, notice again how it triangularizes the floor system. Triangles are locked, they cannot change shape unless the members fail where shapes with 4 or more sides can change shape if the connections act as pins, even a simply pinned triangle is stable.

The green arrow points to joists lapped over the center girder, that lap means the girder is supporting half the floor's width plus any other loads from above. I don't know that 2- 2x12's is sufficient for the girder... what is the span between posts in the center row and are their any loads from above also landing on that center girder?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on September 19, 2011, 06:09:44 AM
Monday Morning - September 19th, 2011

Thanks Don_P for your advice. Getting the bracing done while the welder is out here is a great idea, I will do it.

My middle girder with the doubled 2x12's supported by the angle-iron and bracing should be sufficient. The 20x30 plans that I purchased from countryplans don't even show to use middle piers and a girder.

I do plan on laying my 2x12 boards down at 45 degrees to the joists.

By the way, did you build your place using countryplans plans? I looked here in the 'Owner-Builder Projects' and couldn't find ya. I just wanted to see how you built your place.

Ok, now it's time for the bridging.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on September 19, 2011, 06:37:29 AM
You've made a change to the floor system that required the center girder, it is now a load bearing element. Think of it this way, remove it and the floor will collapse. In John's plan if the girder was not there the floor would not collapse. You've broken and lapped the joists over that center girder. There is nothing wrong with the girder, it actually makes for a stronger floor if sized correctly... but it is not an unneeded extra with the modifications that have been done. Be careful that you understand what you are doing as you modify plan.

My house predates Al Gore. It is a design I started in high school arch drafting class. Dad was a builder and later became a building official. I grew up in the trades and am a licensed residential contractor. My house is a solar tempered design quite similar to John's home. It is built on a crawlspace and raised radiant slab foundation.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: NM_Shooter on September 19, 2011, 09:01:29 AM
In some of the pictures, the wood appears to be pressure treated.  Can you please clarify if that is the case?  Modern PT wood will require hot dip or stainless metal fasteners.  Any PT wood to non-hot dip / stainless material should have a barrier of some sort.   
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on September 19, 2011, 02:12:18 PM
Yes, everything is pressure treated and every fastener has been galv. and 16 sinkers.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on September 19, 2011, 08:38:09 PM
Monday Night - September 19th, 2011

Found out today that I'll be getting 4"x4"x3/8 angle-iron that will run under all girders. I'll screw it to position it and then weld it.

I wonder if I can find a chart, calculation, or specification that would tell me how much weight this angle-iron can take in a given span.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on September 19, 2011, 09:34:42 PM
From the AISC manual, which has span and load tables for channels and I beams, for shapes like this they give the section properties and then you work from there.
9.8 lbs/ft
I=4.36"4
S=1.52"3
r= 1.23"
y=1.14"
Steel is not my strong suit, I believe you would use 29 x 106 psi for E
The formulas would be in publication DA6 under the publications tab at awc.org. you would probably use formula 1, simple beam uniformly loaded, unless you have other loads.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on September 21, 2011, 05:27:57 AM
Wednesday Morning - September 21st, 2011 Oklahoma, USA

I carried, dragged, and positioned a lot of heavy metal around yesterday that was delivered to me. This stuff is so heavy that I almost couldn't pick up one end of it and drag it.

I have 8 pieces of 20 foot long angle-iron that'll be positioned under my doubled 2x12 girders all the way around and down the middle, screwed, and then welded, the screws will hold them up till I weld them. This angle-iron is even thicker than the ones I used as posts. The 20 foot long sections are 4"x4"x13/32 (.406 thick)

Half of them are primed and half are not. I will spray Permatex Rubberized Undercoating on them and keep an eye on them.

Yesterday I also checked and toe-nailed each floor joist to the middle girder to get the joist ready for bridging.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/steelunderhouse.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: texasgun on September 21, 2011, 09:16:53 AM
AL that looks pretty good get you a jack and some blocks to push it up aginst your 2x and it will help hold it in place since it looks like you also are working alone. [cool]
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on September 21, 2011, 09:29:12 AM
big clamps
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: UK4X4 on September 21, 2011, 07:09:25 PM
I'm glad you took the suggestions and the concerns of the others to heart

paint and seal before bolting on- then just grind where the welds will be

Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on September 22, 2011, 08:22:56 PM
Thursday Night - September 22nd, 2011 Oklahoma, USA

Got 2 sections (1 thirty foot side) of angle-iron on today. Moving and lifting this iron in place has been the heaviest stuff I've done so far.

Each section of angle-iron is 20 feet long and it's 4x4x.406 thick and I have 8 sections to put up (now only 6 more). I had to be pretty creative to get it up by myself...strong too. I would lift one end up into 'near' position and then as I wrestled with it I would clamp it as close to the underside of the 2x12's as I could. Then I would go to the other end and lift it into position and try to clamp it while holding it up too. Once I got both ends clamped. I used a jack and chain to lift it up into position. I also put some tension, not a lot but enough to make good contact under the 2x12's. Then I clamped the down angle to the post and screwed TEK metal to metal screws in. Once I get them all up, the welder will come over and weld'em all.

I made sure that I would jack up the angle-iron near each post position so that it was in tension when I screwed in the screws. I can probably get up a section in less than an hour, now that I have a system down. Here's the pics:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/ironsupport1.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/ironsupport2.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: texasgun on September 22, 2011, 10:21:05 PM
Looks stout thats some thick angle. Like the chain and jack trick will have to try that , funny how working alone helps you come up with new ways to do things.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on September 23, 2011, 12:06:35 PM
Glad you listened about the angle, i was begining to worry about you.

Good score.on the rv. Im looking at tye exact same.one for $2500 or a 78 model for $2k. So i cwn get started on my cabin.

I drive hwy 69 two to four times a week. If you need an extra person give me a shout.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on September 23, 2011, 07:54:51 PM
Friday Evening - September 23rd, 2011 Oklahoma, USA

Ok, I put up a full 20 foot section of that angle-iron after work today. It was heavier and took a little longer than I thought but I got it up and screwed in. Thank God for clamps and a jack!

Here's a pic of a full 20 foot section going in:

(Pic coming soon)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/9-23-2011lifting20footangle-iron.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on September 25, 2011, 03:51:36 AM
Sunday Morning - September 25th, 2011 Oklahoma, USA

Ok, all angle-iron has been installed underneath of every rim-joist/girder. Also, I had it all welded yesterday! It has been welded at every joint, every place where angle-iron meets a post and where angle-iron meets angle-iron.

Now, onto the bridging and sub-floor.

Here's a pic of the welder:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/9-24-2011weldinga.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on September 25, 2011, 06:22:29 AM
Be sure to paint the welds good, you no longer have any galvanizing at those points.


I wonder if the rubber undercosting would work on pressure treated wood post foundations? Hmm, ideas
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: desimulacra on September 25, 2011, 08:37:09 AM
 Is paint better than cold galvanizing?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: muldoon on September 27, 2011, 10:54:05 PM
Al, I think your doing good and I love reading about your project.  Post more updates and pictures when you can. 
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on September 28, 2011, 06:13:25 AM
9-28-2011 Wednesday Morning, Oklahoma, USA

Thanks for the encouragement muldoon, I need it.

I have started the middle bridging, here's a pic:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/9-27-2011mainbridgingc.JPG)

I know I've mentioned this before but I 'was' planning on triangulating the 2x's that I'll be laying down as a sub-floor. I have other builders telling me that since I'm laying 2x's down instead of the usual thinner stuff, that I'd have no problem not triangulating the boards but just laying them down perpendicular to the joists. That way there'll be less waist and cutting of angles. Their saying that it'll be strong with no problems. Is that ok?

I plan on finishing the middle bridging and getting right to the cross bridging on the weekend. I'm excited about walking on top of my house!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on September 28, 2011, 09:12:33 AM
Quote from: ajbremer on September 28, 2011, 06:13:25 AM
They're saying that it'll be strong with no problems. Is that ok?

No, or rather, NO!
Don_P has said it before and I have said it before, and I'll repeat myself one more time; Triangulate!!

Triangle shapes are strong. Boards laid at a 45 degree angle across the joists form triangle when nailed down. Lots of racking resistance there. Boards laid across the joists at a 90 degree angle form rectangles when nailed down. Not as strong; in fact not strong at all as far as racking across the deck.

It's the same reason we have suggested diagonal bracing at the posts and joists.  Don_P even drew the concept on a photo to illustrate.

[deadhorse]

If you don't believe that take some scrap 2x4 or 2x6 pieces two to three feet long. make a triangle and make a square or a rectangle. Secure each corner connection with 2 nails. Stand them up and push laterally on a top corner. What happens?  Then try nailing a scrap of OSB across the suare/rectangle shape. What happens then?

I would not trust any advice from a "builder" who says that boards of any size laid perpendicular across the joists was "good enough" or as strong as if laid at 45 degrees.

I'm not usually so blunt, but there it is. Triangles! Diagonals! 45 degrees!  


http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=10641.msg143326#msg143326

(https://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x109/windyhilll/joist.jpg)


Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on September 28, 2011, 09:18:13 AM
And if you do lay the 2x down at a 45 degree angle it makes the job easier if you leave the 2x ends square and overhanging a tad. Then when it's all done snap a chalk line and cut off the overhanging with a circular saw. makes for a nicer more even edge.

Structural floor sheathing, properly nailed and glued would make a floor unit that is even stronger though I'll wager.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Squirl on September 28, 2011, 03:01:52 PM
If you are using 2x material and what looks like 24" spacing perpendicular to the joist it should be plenty strong enough for any application you are going to use it for.  Running sheathing diagonally does create a better diaphragm and is stronger in some ways but weaker in others.  You are spanning a 40% greater distance with the wood c^2=a^2+b^2.  
If the joists are over 24" spacing, diagonally running sheathing is against code.  Although the chart surprisingly jumps from 24" to 48", because a 30" span run at a right angle would be around 42" span, which is less than the 48" allowed when running it perpendicular. http://publicecodes.citation.com/icod/irc/2009/icod_irc_2009_5_sec003.htm
There may be even other engineering principles that come into play which make it weaker diagonally that I don't know about.

Proper nailing is a must when using lumber as sheathing.
http://publicecodes.citation.com/icod/irc/2009/icod_irc_2009_6_sec002_par005.htm

IIRC from the various pictures and design's, John's plans call for 2x material perpendicular to joist.

(http://www.countryplans.com/images/vc-6-frplc.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on September 28, 2011, 05:48:16 PM
Where the IRC states 1" and thicker flooring may be laid perpendicular to the joists the full sentence reads...

"Subflooring may be omitted when joist spacing does not exceed 16 inches (406 mm) and a 1-inch (25.4 mm) nominal tongue-and-groove wood strip flooring is applied perpendicular to the joists."  The bold type is mine for emphasis.

I stand by my statement that 2x12 material such as what AJ has, assuming it is just plain old lumber, not T&G, should be laid across the joists at a 45 degree angle.  We want that 20x30 foot rectangular main floor diaphram to be able to withstand forces that may try to distort it, bend it into a parallelogram, as best as possible. Hence the diagonal placement. Structural 4x8 foot panels are a little different as when they are laid across the joists in a perpendicular manner, the sheathing sheets turn the entire floor into a box beam laid on its side, rather than standing upright.

Someplace here there is a reference to a drawing that illustrates relative racking strengths of a wall sheathed with a variety of materials; wood strips perpendicular to studs, diagonally across studs and compared to various sheathing sheet goods. The same principles of strength apply to the floor unit as do the walls.



Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: dug on September 28, 2011, 06:51:31 PM
Don is right. Sheathing is strongest but if you use 2 by's run them diagonally. Definitely.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on October 03, 2011, 06:11:23 AM
Monday Morning - 10-03-2011 Oklahoma, USA

I've researched Advantech subflooring, my local Lowe's has it for $23.46 a sheet. It looks like it will withstand the weather while I try to get my walls and roof on asap. I'm going to call them today and ask them a few questions.

I have one more row of cross-bridging to do and then the floor. Here's a pic:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/10-02-2011bridging.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: keyjoy on October 03, 2011, 06:37:09 AM
Looking Good!!! Your floor looks stout!
I wish we were this far along. We are still putting up beams, But they are going faster than the piers did.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on October 03, 2011, 06:39:32 AM
The thing i.have wondered about.is how the 4x8 sheeting will line up with the joists with them overlapped like that. That means one row of joists is on one side of the 16" mark and the other row is on the opposit side of it
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on October 03, 2011, 07:03:27 AM
We do this pretty often. Run the sheathing on the layout from the starting side. At the switch you scab a short piece of 2x4 alongside of the joist on the breaks to support the edges of the sheets and then shift the sheets 1-1/2" on the rows from then on so they are back on the "new" layout.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on October 03, 2011, 07:14:37 AM
I will probably hang my joists from the beams with hangers and avoid the problem. Im doing wuat i csn to eliminate waste
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: NM_Shooter on October 03, 2011, 09:07:36 AM
You'll like the Advantech.  It will withstand a lot of moisture.  I put some down early this year and left it exposed to weather, and after a month or more I still did not have fibers poking up like you would get with regular OSB. 

It will also make that deck nice and tight.  Glue it down too. 

-f-
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on October 03, 2011, 12:01:52 PM
Monday Morning - October 3rd, 2011 Oklahoma, USA

I contacted 'Advantech' this morning (Huber Engineered Woods: www.advantechperforms.com) and talked to two different people at two different times with various questions.

I mentioned that it's getting toward Winter here in Oklahoma and I'm about to put my sub-floor on. I told them I wasn't sure if I'll have my roof on in four weeks or four months and I wondered if their product would withstand the winter for that long. The guy said: "Sure, that's what it's made for, guaranteed to be like new for up to 300 days exposed to all weather." He said almost all Lowe's has the product but the two big Lowe's near me has only the 23/32 thickness and they said that it is the most common.

I also asked him about screws or nails and using glue on the joist. He said to use #8 screws minimum and use glue on the joist but not a water based one because Advantech is water resistant. He mentioned that Strong-Tie has a stand up screw gun/tool that people use to screw in Advantech panels. Strong-Tie even mentions that it's 'Advantech Approved'. They also have thicker panels at 7/8, 1.00, and 1 1/8.

Both Lowe's places near me sell the 23/32 4x8's for $23.48 a sheet. Oh ya, I also asked him what he thought the most common finished floor used to go on the sub-floor and he said probably carpet first and then hardwood flooring.

He also mentioned that when it snows and when there's ice buildup it is a good practice to get it off instead of letting it stay on. He said not to use salt to melt the ice or snow. He also said that any product that is 'pet-safe' is safe for Advantech. He did mention that Advantech is also good for people with pets.

I'll be doing the countryplan jig before ya know it...well, I think I'm going to record a tune on my guitar while on top of the sub-floor instead of doing the jig thingy...stay tuned.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ScottA on October 03, 2011, 12:16:56 PM
What's holding up the ends of the floor joists?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on October 03, 2011, 03:30:00 PM
Nails into the floor joist through the rim joist and joist hangers. There is a girder in the middle where they lap.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ScottA on October 03, 2011, 04:35:02 PM
I didn't see joist hangers in the pics. I was just concerned nails might not be enough. I've never seen one done with steel posts like this. Interesting idea. Are you going to put angle braces on the posts? Go Sooners!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on October 03, 2011, 05:52:36 PM
He has 4" angle iron running full width and welded to the posts that they are sitting on. I think thats what you mean
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: UK4X4 on October 03, 2011, 06:03:41 PM
The angle is on the outside of the posts under the rim 2x's

Air and end nailed is the support the joists have at the sides
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on October 03, 2011, 07:02:55 PM
enlarged section of the above photo. (upper right of photo)

(https://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q305/djmbucket/construction%20oddnends/what.jpg)

Looks like there are some joist hangers (good!)
Looks like many of the joists are hanging on nails driven through the rim and into the end grain (not good!)

With nails in the end grain there is likelihood of the joist end failing before the nail fails.

If the 4x4 angle could have been notched around the steel posts and welded in place it could do double duty as a joist support.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on October 03, 2011, 08:08:58 PM
Further to the joist attachment question. According to the
IRC joists framed into the side of a girder must be supported by an approved hanger. Alternatively a ledger strip may be used; minimum size 2x2". Looks like the nails into the end grain are more for holding the rim in place rather than to support the weight on the joist. Hence the engineered hangers.

And a question.  i don't have an answer for this... just a suspicion.
it's about the large amount of overlap in the center of the joist span.

The IRC states there should be a minimum of 1.5" of bearing surface and a minimum overlap of 3 inches with a minimum of three 10D nails, face nailing the joist overlap. I do not see any mention of a maximum overlap amount. But my reference framing books all illustrate something like a maximum overlap of around 12 inches. The question that comes to mind is this... can there be too much overlap? Can the floor loading cause the ends of the overlap to move upwards as a floor load makes the joist deflect down in the center of the span?  Like I said I don't know the engineering answer. Myself, I would have cut those ends shorter and used the cutoffs for blocking or something.

I should mention it is good to see proper use of solid blocking over the girder with bridging elsewhere.

And for now, my last "I wonder..."   I wonder if the undercoating applied to the steel embedded in the concrete may have a detrimental aspect? It may prevent the concrete from bonding to the steel. Maybe, I dunno?  Would the rubbery coating allow the steel to slip within the concrete? A question for a trained engineer?

Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on October 03, 2011, 08:53:24 PM
Okay, an answer to the overlap question.... long overlaps may produce squeaky floors.  Typical instructions in framing courses are to limit the overhang on lapped floor joists to 6 inches or it may end up being a squeaker.   


And another question re the undercoating. This may act like a lubricant to allow the steel column to push down through the concrete. Is there a flat steel plate under the post and angle sections to prevent this movement? 


Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on October 03, 2011, 09:01:52 PM
I belive he was concerned with the lime in the concrete eating away at the steel. So which condition is worse? Personally i would have stuck to wood but thats me. Im actually considering coating my pt posts with it too but i will have a foot on the bottom. Im also conserned wit it possibly trapping moisture in.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: texasgun on October 03, 2011, 09:17:57 PM
As for using wood over steel I recently removed some fence at the farm that was standard unpainted steel pipe posts (drill pipe) 22 years embeded in concrete I busted it off and the metal is still in good shape and reuasable. In my area dry intense sun (west texas) most wood posts would of needed replacing long before that, of corse I am comparing fence posts to a more protected foundation posts. If you look back I think some of the posts that Al used had spikes built in to the sides that would prevent them from moving in the concrete.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ScottA on October 03, 2011, 09:21:36 PM
Not to question the builders methods I just wanted to save some future grief. There are things you can skimp on and things you can't. Don't skimp on structure. We've had members whose houses have failed in the past. I don't want to see that again. Do what you think best, please don't get the idea I am trying make trouble. If I'm seeing it wrong that's fine.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on October 03, 2011, 09:28:36 PM
The angle iron pieces with stud like things in the inside of the angle are apparently steel reinforcing corners that are cast into concrete columns to protect the corners from damage. Yes they would be anchored well within the cast concrete.

Things like the square posts though could slip because of the undercoating. If the end of the 4 inch x 4 inch post is open at the bottom end then there is actually only about 4 square inches of area bearing on the concrete or whatever is below, if the wall thickness is 1/4".  A 4x4 wood post, on the other hand has a bearing area of 16 square inches.

Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on October 03, 2011, 09:32:19 PM
I think that's all any of us try to do Scott, it's not to pick as much as it's to give things to think about for future builders.
The studded steel would be well supported in the pier, the unstudded steel should probably have a foot on it and a good thickness of concrete footing under the steel to prevent it "punching through".

The thread has moved on but in reference to the Advantech question;
23/32" ply is what we commonly refer to as 3/4", plenty adequate for a typical subfloor, most sheet goods are 1/32" under in thickness. The maximum allowable span rating is stamped on most panels. It generally looks like a fraction, I can't recall but it'll be around 32/48. The higher number is the max distance the panel can span between rafters, the lower number is the max span that the panel could span between floor joists. I glue and nail with ring shanks, we keep the deck swept clean after every storm and I generally paint the floor with cheap oil based garage floor paint or, if they have some, mismixed oil based paint from the paint dept. Not necessary but cheap insurance. The stand up screw gun probably wouldn't be worth it for a single job, I don't own one and recently put down another 2000sf of decking with a cordless handheld. Useful for production work but marginally usefull for a one off.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on October 04, 2011, 06:07:08 AM
Tuesday Morning - October 4th, 2011

All these comments are great and I thank you all.

I did the best I could with what I knew and with what I had when I first laid the steel into the ground. Yes, there were a few corner post, possibly 2 out of 4 maybe - can't rightly remember, that had a foot on them causing them to be more stable in the concrete. The 4 corner post are primed 4"x4"x3/16 steel post. The 2 posts in the middle of each outside length are 3"x3"x1/4" galvanized post. I remember handling those two3x3 thicker post and they seemed sturdier than the corner post. Then, all the other 9 post are the 4"x4"x3/16 (I think they were 3/16 and not 1/4) posts. I think all but 2 of those angle iron post had the protrusions coming out of them. I was told that they were engineered to fit into concrete.

I did spray a light coating of undercoating to each post because I thought that the concrete would interact in a bad way with the steel. I also had the opinion that the steel would somehow rust more without the coating because of possible moisture that could somehow get into it. I didn't think of putting concrete under the steel to prevent the post from 'punching through' but there are metal feet on a few post, the protrusions on others, and I remember putting a thin piece of steel on top of the rock for something for the post to sit on but I can't remember if I did that to every post. I often wondered how much concrete settles down into the rock on the bottom before it dries? Is it to thick to do that or does some 'concrete juice' run down into the rock and hold it together just a little?

I put one bag of rock into each hole, then set the post on the rock and then poured the concrete in. I didn't know and/or realize about any of the 'punch through' theory. If I could go back, I would have maybe drilled a couple 1/2" holes through the metal post near the bottom and put about a 6" or 8" rod through it, then the concrete would have more to hold onto?

As far as joist hangers go, I'm still putting them in. I initially put the joist in by nailing through the rim-joist to hold them up. Yesterday I added 4 more joist hangers. The Simpson Strong-Tie 2x12 hangers that I'm using (LUS210Z) have a capacity of around 1000 lbs all the way around (uplift, floor, snow, and roof). There are 4 joists where a hanger can't go because it's where they connect to the post. I will put brackets under these locations. I'm glad this was pointed out to me.

Now, about the overlapping length of the joist. I didn't know there was a maximum and that too long is not good. I see Don's point about the ends going up if the middle goes down. Should I cut them off? The reason their long like that is because they are 12 footers and I didn't think I needed to cut them. I guess I thought things would be stronger with more wood there.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on October 04, 2011, 09:19:11 AM
I would cut off the excess. Three inches overlap is code minimum overlap. You would likely be fine to have six inches of overlap and face nailed with minimum of three true 10D nails. 16D nails with ends clinched over even better.


Here's some commentary on concrete from PEte my engineer friend...

Regarding steel in concrete, reply #136... concrete and steel are really quite compatible, ever hear of rebars in concrete, they work really well together. The concrete takes compressive stresses very well and the reinforcing steel takes the tensile forces, and controls cracking in tensile regions of the member. Actually, normal concrete chemistry tends to inhibit steel corrosion. You knock the concrete off the rebar, or off the fence posts mentioned in reply #137 and the steel will be in fine shape. We do require concrete cover around the reinforcing steel; generally 1.5" clear when the concrete is formed, such as beams, columns and the like, not exposed directly to ground or weather; at least 3" clr. when the concrete is cast directly against soil w/o forming, and at least 2" clear when a formed surface is finally in contact with soil; and a few others. The idea is to protect the steel from soil chemistry, environmental chemistry and moisture.

You will see old concrete structures, undersides of bridges for example and road salts, where the surface concrete has spalled away and the reinforcing gages are exposed. What has happened here is enough moisture has gotten to the reinforcing steel, along with some salts, maybe because of excessive concrete cracking or constant wetting with salts; this causes rusting of the steel and the rusting process causes a many fold expansion of the volume of the steel as it turns to rust, and this expansion exerts high expansion stresses on the outer concrete lays, causing them to spall. And, at the very least where a post come comes up out of a pier, the surface of the pier should be sloped away from the post so it will drain moisture rather than hold it. There is still some chance that moisture can get in around the post and cause rusting or rot. And, concrete does tend to hold moisture so there is some considerable debate about wooden posts in concrete being susceptible to rot. Maybe the cracked interface or joint between the post and the top surface of the concrete should be caulked to prevent moisture from getting down along the post in this crack.

Regarding bond between concrete and steel.... you don't want excessive rust on the rebar or steel and you certainly don't want any manufacturing olds or lubricants on the steel, both must be cleaned off before the rebars are installed. But, a certain amount of rust on rebar or plain steel is actually good, and improves bond because of the roughness it causes. Deformed rebars actually get a good share of their bond strength from the mechanical actions of the deformations against the concrete Smooth steel has very little bond strength in concrete, and sometimes bond breakers are used intentionally. Some metals are reactive with concrete and can't be used in concrete
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on October 04, 2011, 09:28:48 AM
Further commentary of my own. I think I've said this once or two places before. This is not necessarily directed at any one person; it is just being broadcast to anyone who reads this. Many believe everything they see illustrated on the internet as good and proper


When not sure of how to go about some aspect of construction it is always better, IMO, to ask the question before materials are purchased, before any tools are lifted. This is especially true when dealing with unconventional, non traditional materials and methods. It is also frequently best not to wait to ask a question on Wednesday if the coming weekend is when the related task is to carried out. Sometimes it takes a while for good replies to come along.


Let me add that similarly every detail of the build should be thought out and drawn before any tools are lifted. The only area where I had some difficulty with my cabin was the one area that I had not made detailed plans before getting too far along the project. Well, I made one other error in judgement but I have a fix planned and will detail that for all to see in a while.



And one more time I'll ask about diagonal bracing in the X and Y directions. ???

Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on October 04, 2011, 08:22:00 PM
Tuesday Night - October 4th, 2011

Started to shorten my 'too long' joist lapping. My joist overlapped as much as 2 feet and as you've read I've learned that they should only overlap about 6 inches. I did nail them so I not only had to cut them but also pry them apart ever so gently. I've repaired 3 joist so far and I've got a system down now so it's not a hard thing to fix and make right. It's even hard to tell that it was once longer.

I adjusted the circular saw so that it almost breaks through the excess lap but doesn't touch the joist behind it. Then I use a nice short hand saw to cut away the final very thin layer. It all looks much nicer too. Thank you Don and everybody.

Of course I will post pics as soon as possible. I took a picture tonight but it was just too dark.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on October 04, 2011, 09:05:34 PM
On the post bottom "punch through" problem. I think I have a clearer mental picture now. From what PEte has said and what we now know about the construction there is a risk of the posts slipping down in the pier concrete, the steel is smooth with a bond breaker of undercoating and there is no footing under the steel. Where there is a foot on the post it sounds as though it is only the size of the post, and that steel has no protective concrete cover. The fix that is coming to mind right now would be to weld angle iron tabs to the posts on top of the concrete piers to prevent them from being able to slide down within the pier.

This is some further commentary that I think is worthwhile.

In terms of lateral strength of this foundation the following things come to mind. I make no claims, one way or another, about the adequacy of this foundation system.

1. He was digging in very firm, free standing soil, and was digging fairly good sized piers, fairly deep; so the piers may be fairly good as relates to vert. loads and lateral bearing against the soil due to wind, etc. However, only about 3' deep still makes them fairly tippy. Deeper would be better as the piers try to act like cantilevers up out of the soil. Also, the lot is quite flat, holds water, and got pretty muddy in some of his early posts, so at some times the upper foot or so of soil may not offer much lateral resistance.

2. The steel posts cantilever up out of the conc. piers about 4' above grade, so that is a fairly long cantil. at which height the entire lateral load on the building is imparted.

3. The 4" sq. tubes are good cross sections in both compression (as columns) and in bending against the lateral loads, but their connections up at the floor framing system are suspect for transmitting the lateral loads.

4. The 4x4 angles may be marginally o.k. as cantilever compression members for gravity loading, but are quite susceptible to twisting and buckling due to canti. bending in combination with the compressive loads. They are an unstable member when used as a beam or beam-column.

5. Someone showed and suggested some knee braces below the floor framing system and to the pier members and that would seem like a wise idea.


The fix that comes to mind to me here is to weld another piece of angle to each of the angle iron posts to form a square tube. This would involve considerable welding, I doubt they would need to be continuous welds though. I could tell in one pic that the welder was burning the galvy, you sure don't want to inhale much of that at all. As I've said before steel is not my strong suit so take all this for what it's worth.

I agree with Don, good planning is critical. I spent a good bit of today cursing a pair of hips that I set about a degree off. Doesn't sound like much till the error accumulates over about 28'  d*
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on October 05, 2011, 02:09:21 PM
Quote from: ajbremer on October 04, 2011, 08:22:00 PM
Tuesday Night - October 4th, 2011

Started to shorten my 'too long' joist lapping. My joist overlapped as much as 2 feet and as you've read I've learned that they should only overlap about 6 inches. I did nail them so I not only had to cut them but also pry them apart ever so gently.

Al, once you cut through the ends you don't need to remove the end that is now an extra. Just leave it The cut disconnects it from the main section. Also your method of cutting almost through with the circular saw and cpmpleting with a hand saw is a good one as you don't want any weakening kerf cuts in the main joist.

Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on October 05, 2011, 03:27:25 PM
Ok, Don - thanks again. I'm gett'in off work now and heading right to it.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: UK4X4 on October 05, 2011, 03:57:33 PM
"4. The 4x4 angles may be marginally o.k. as cantilever compression members for gravity loading, but are quite susceptible to twisting and buckling due to canti. bending in combination with the compressive loads. They are an unstable member when used as a beam or beam-column."

"The fix that comes to mind to me here is to weld another piece of angle to each of the angle iron posts to form a square tube"

Whilst i agree with the comments above that an angle iron is not a recognised post or beam member

being that the angle is welded to the adjacent posts by a full 4x4x1/4" angle iron and welded both sides

pretty sure it won't be going anywhere but

If worried about twisting just make it a triangle and stitch weld

but I think he mentioned it was 4x4x1/4" being just less than 4ft from top of concrete to the welded joint

I would imagine the compression required to twist and collapse one of those posts would require a rather high point load

The building with its size - gives you a rough 87000lbs weight with 30# snow- full loft and floor

If you divide it equally amongst the 15 posts it comes out to be about 5800# per post

yes i know thats a basic way of doing it - and each post will have varying loads - fine double it
and we'll call it 12,000#

anyone know the compresive strength of that angle iron before twisting ....?

before we start internet over engineering !
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on October 05, 2011, 08:13:43 PM
Wednesday Night - October 5th, 2011

Hey, great information UK4x4 - thank you sir.

I've often wondered where a total weight chart for typical houses exists. Where do they come up with these weights. how bout metal roof vs. shingle roof, different sidings, light planks instead of drywall on the inside, man and woman occupant instead of family of 6, no bathtub, waterbed, small hot water tank, etc., etc. There's a lot of variables going on when it comes to weight, that's my guess. I do realize though that someday I may not own this house and a huge family with a different life style may move into it and it has to be safe for them too.

Also, as UK4x4 mentioned: Every post in the system is welded to the 4"x4"x.25 angle-iron that runs the total distance around the perimeter and down the middle. It all acts as one unit. Everywhere a post touches the angle-iron, there is a weld: bottom, top, back, front...all sides.

I'm over half way done cutting off my excess joist lappage to 6" like Don said. Here's a pic of it:
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/10-05-2011joistshortening.JPG)

As I said in a previous post, I set my circular saw just short of going into the next joist and then I use a real good short hand saw. Here's a pic:
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/10-05-2011joistshorteningsawdepth.JPG)

And lastly: "By the light of the moon may all good 'Dollar Store' hammers lay their heads once and forever!"
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/10-05-2011dollarstorehammer.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on October 05, 2011, 09:19:41 PM
With a hammer like that its no wonder you used steel. Lol
:(
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on October 05, 2011, 09:39:51 PM
Although I have tables for weights of materials I don't like to cut it fine and for my own projects tend to round things up and play it conservative. You can sum the actual weights of materials and cut it as fine as you like, generally there are assumptions used for the dead load portion. Live loads are specified in the code book for things like floor loads or by your local jurisdiction for things like wind and snow. Specific heavy or concentrated point loads should be accounted for as well. These are all summed and distributed amonst the load bearing members according to how much of the load each will bear. When this is beyond the capabilities of the builder it is a good idea to have an engineer check your design. This is not necessary if one is building within the guidelines in the codebook but when you step outside of those guidelines and use unconventional materials that you have no real idea about the strength of it is prudent to have someone experienced review your assumptions.

If you reread the comments notice that he felt the angle steel posts were probably marginally sufficient for the vertical loads but with those in conjunction with a lateral load, wind, the combination might be pushing things. No one has done the math, this was an observation about the wrong shape being used for the purpose. I don't disagree, this is why when you asked previously about tables or formulas for steel angle as beams I was unable to find a table and tried to direct you to a channel. For columns I have tables for the square steel tubing, and again nothing for the steel angle used as a column. These shapes are not generally used for these purposes, the comments are adressing why. That will not change what has been done here but can serve as a heads up to those thinking about these methods. As I said earlier I think the basic idea has alot going for it. Choosing the right sizes and shapes, connecting them well and placing them correctly in appropriately sized piers would make a much stronger foundation than wood pier and beam.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on October 06, 2011, 07:56:18 PM
Thursday Night - October 6th, 2011

Finished shortening the 'too long' lapped floor joists today. Tomorrow I will get back on the last row of cross bridging and then the Advantech subfloor...cool man!

When I get my subfloor on, I'm not going to do the 'countryplan jig' but I'm going to play a jig - on my guitar and record it. I'm not going to write a countryplan song or nothing like that but I'll do a nice Jerry Reed/Chet Atkins finger style tune on my classical. Here's a tune I played and recorded, laid down a couple percussion tracks, guitar tracks, and a little keyboard. I copied the way Jerry Reed and Chet Atkins played it together back in 72. Here's the link to that:

http://hockeya.com/serenade.mp3 (http://hockeya.com/serenade.mp3)

And here is a pic of my joists now correct:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/10-06-2011joistshorteningdone.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on October 06, 2011, 08:54:47 PM
Jerry reed was the best.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Alan Gage on October 07, 2011, 09:51:14 AM
I'm glad to hear you're going with 4x8 sheets for the floor. I know you said you had the 2x12s laying around already but it seems like down the road there would be better uses for that lumber.

Alan
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on October 07, 2011, 02:01:46 PM
Your right Al, as time passed by I felt worse and worse about using the 2x's as a subfloor. I'm glad I'm doing what's right and what most people do. Thank God for this forum.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on October 09, 2011, 08:36:00 PM
Sunday Night - October 9th, 2011

Finally got all of my cross bridging done. I used treated 2x4's for the bridging. Now it's onto the bracing and then laying down the Advantech.

You'll notice angle-iron of top of the 4 corner posts and the 2 middle post, I put that there just so the rain wouldn't get down in them.

Here's a pic of what I have so far:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/10-09-2011crossbracingdone.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on October 10, 2011, 09:54:34 AM
Al

in that other thread you were considering log siding. You may want to.look here
logsidingcabins.com (http://logsidingcabins.com)
Theyre in rogers AR

Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on October 10, 2011, 07:40:57 PM
Monday Night - October 10th, 2011 Oklahoma, USA

Thanks for the log siding link CjAl, I just got in so I haven't checked it out yet but will do before work tomorrow morning.

I really love the log siding look but I don't want to spend thousands for it. Lowe's has pine 3x8 D-logs for 1.?? per linear foot. I would imagine that they would have to be treated every year?

Anyway, I started clamping up my bracing today. I'll have 34 lengths delivered tomorrow. I'm sure I'll get them up, screwed, and welded in no time. I'm going to jack-up the main angle-iron so that it just meets the double 2x12 rim-joist with just a slight bit of pressure. (In some places the angle iron is already meeting the 2x's but in others you can see a little light because it's not touching.) Then I'll clamp and screw in each brace. Then I'll have the welder come out when their all screwed in and ready to go.

Both the angle iron under the 2x12's and the brace angle iron is 4" x 4" x 0.400 thick, really stout stuff - even those little pieces are heavy.

Here's a pic of clampage, sorry about the darkness - I've been working into the dark now for many days...

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/10-10-2011firstbracing.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on October 11, 2011, 05:49:23 AM
Tuesday Morning - October 11th, 2011 Oklahoma

I've been looking into log siding, as you may have read in previous post, and CjAl lead me to a log siding site over in Rogers, Arkansas called "Rustic Log Siding Woodshop" http://www.logsidingcabins.com/index.html (http://www.logsidingcabins.com/index.html). I've been trying to figure out the price of siding and the amount I need to do the job.

I looked at the types of siding and the prices and here's what I've come up with.

John's 20 x 30 1 1/2 loft plans show that the wall studs are 10'. To figure out the total wall square footage I did this:

( (10' x 30') x 2 ) + ( (10' x 20') x 2 ) + ( (Area of a Rt. triangle with one angle 45 degrees & one 10' side) x 4) = 1,200 Sq. Ft.

600 + 400 + (50x4) = 1,200 (Someone please let me know if I figured that out right because I'm going to be pricing other types of siding also.)

Now, that log siding site said to convert Sq. Ft. to Linear Ft. using their 8" siding you need to multiply Sq. Ft. by 1.8

1,200 x 1.8 = 2,160 Linear Ft. for those 8" logs.

Ok, the price of their T&G Yellow Pine 8" chink-joint siding is $1.09 per linear feet.

2,160 linear feet x $1.09 = $2,354.40 + 9% tax ($211.90) = a total of $2,566.30 to side the 20x30 1 1/2. (If you want to add 'Hand Hewn' to all the siding then they charge another .25 per linear foot)

I realize that I didn't account for the square footage of the window and door openings but I figure that's only a couple hundred Sq. Ft. and that might knock off about $430.00 or so.

My other option at this point is the type of siding I see here at this following link, I think it's a type of pine lap and I also think it is John's 20x30 plans too - can someone please help me figure out what it is? Here's what I'm talking about: http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=6268.0 (http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=6268.0)

By the way, I've always loved Dusty's build (the link above). Those Shed Dormers on each side with that porch, wow! Anybody know if it's possible to email Dusty or get a hold of him? His build sure looks the greatest.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on October 11, 2011, 09:17:08 AM
I didn't check your math, but it looks ok. But I have a question about that 8" number. The 8" in 8" siding is usually what the wood started out as as the listed nominal width. Then it is machined; planed smooth, shaped, etc. And there is an overlap. Do the calculations reflect the actual coverage area?  There will also be some waste from some pieces having a split end or something. Some cutoffs will be too short to be used without having an excess numbers of end to end joints. Allow maybe 10% for waste.

Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Alan Gage on October 11, 2011, 09:55:58 AM
My 8" cedar bevel siding was actually a little over 7".

Alan
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on October 11, 2011, 10:21:24 AM
Right, my T&G 1x6 covered something like 5 1/4, maybe a tad less.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Alan Gage on October 11, 2011, 01:41:35 PM
I guess it didn't really matter with my bevel siding since I was going to do a 6" reveal anyway. It could goof you up with something like T&G though.

Alan
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on October 12, 2011, 07:43:14 PM
 Wednesday Night - October 12th, 2011 Oklahoma, USA

Last night I got my first two braces up and bolted in and ready for the welder. Today I did the bracing on 1 of 4 middle piers:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/10-11-2011first2bracings.JPG)

Here's some shots of doing the first middle pier:
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/10-12-2011firstmiddlebrace-set3.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/10-12-2011firstmiddlebracefrontview.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on October 13, 2011, 08:39:57 PM
Thursday Night - October 13th, 2011

Bracing is coming along. I realized that I had to get the middle bracing done first because I didn't want to crawl around in between outer bracing to get to the middle.

Also, I got on Advantechs website and they have a form there that you can fill out to receive a sample of the flooring and other information. Well, FedEx came to my place today and delivered me some 3/4" flooring...for free! (Only problem is that the two pieces are only about 4" x 8") Hey, that's a start!

Here's a picture of my finished (except for welding) middle bracing:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/10-13-2011middlebracingdone.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on October 13, 2011, 09:25:13 PM
A thousand or so more free samples and you will have a floor
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: NM_Shooter on October 14, 2011, 11:45:26 AM
Not that it matters, but your bracing is making me feel much more comfortable  ;D
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Bob S. on October 15, 2011, 03:02:50 PM
I echo Shooter's coment 100% that is starting to look like a vary solid foundation system.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: NM_Shooter on October 16, 2011, 07:26:16 PM
How did you screw that angle iron together?  What fasteners did you use?  Did you have to pre-drill the holes?

I frequently have little luck drilling through angle iron.  Either my technique or my drill bits suck. 
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on October 16, 2011, 08:41:32 PM
10-16-2011 Sunday Night Oklahoma, USA

Thanks for the comments.

Yes, I feel more comfortable because of all the bracing I've done. Thank you all for your suggestions.

Well, today I finished all of the bracing. It took me 3 or 4 days and I'm glad to have finished it. The part I didn't like the most was cutting it with the little angle grinder that I'm using. Sparks fly around and on top of my head, the wheel will get stuck now and then, and it seemed kind of dangerous here and there but a wheel never actually broke on me. BUT, I am very thankful for that angle grinder though, with out it I would have had to hack saw it (I actually did hacksaw the first couple of post off before I got the angle grinder, each one took about 20 minutes).

The screws that I used to attach the bracing are TEKS Self-Tapping screws. Teks number 5's for fastening metal to metal (.125 - .500) They also have what's called 'Climaseal Coating'. They have a 5/16 head, 60 to a box, and the ones I used are: 12-24 X 1 1/4". They say they are self tapping but yes, I did have to pre-drill the holes. Then, I would dip each screw in motor oil. I would have to go in and out a couple of times before the screws would tap all the way to the head, even with my powerful DeWalt gun. The screws are only there to hold the angle iron for the welder. So, the strength of the screws and the weld will be what holds the bracing onto the frame.

I have a youtube video that I'm uploading. I will post its link in the morning - please check it out.

Here's a pic of the TEKS I used:
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/10-16-2011Teks12-24s.JPG)

Here's some bracing pics. This first one is where 3 meet into one post:
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/10-16-2011bracingdone3meet.JPG)

And here is another shot of the bracing:
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/10-16-2011bracingdoneangleview.JPG)

One more shot of a total view:
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/10-16-2011bracingdonefrontview.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on October 17, 2011, 07:09:33 AM
Your welder is going to hate you for putting the so close to the ground. Lol

are those steel stairs? Where you getting all the steel goodies from? Must be getting a deal because steel is way more then wood right now
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on October 17, 2011, 09:29:24 PM
Monday Night - October 17th, 2011 Oklahoma, USA

Ya CjAl,

Those are steel stairs, two of them. You kind of can't tell by looking but they are the type of stairs where you fill in the steps with concrete. I'm going to dig two holes and use (once again) angle iron piers to hold them up after the place and porch is done. I can barely move them even when using a 16 foot 2x12 as a pry bar. I really need some kind of tractor or fork lift at my place!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on October 17, 2011, 10:24:21 PM
Instead of filling with concrete you could put wood in them and screw it down.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on October 23, 2011, 04:22:09 AM
Sunday - October 23rd, 2011

Welder welding bracing:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/10-22-2011_John_Welding_Bracing.JPG)

Welded Bracing:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/10-22-2011_Welded_Bracing.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on November 01, 2011, 05:46:15 PM
Thank you everyone, very good points. I will not use RV windows.

I received my truss quote today for my countryplan 20x30 1 1/2 Open Beam Ceiling. It says I'll need 24 trusses and they weigh 187 lbs each and they are on 16" centers. The total cost of them is $2,700. That's more than I thought but the people that I talk to say that it is a good deal. I still need rafter ties every 4' right? Another question, what are all those numbers next to the individual pieces of the truss, is that feet and inches?

Here are some snapshots of the quote, I'm sorry their so small. I also covered up data of the truss guy just in case of copyright issues I'm not aware of.

(//hockeya.com/14x24Pics/truss1.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/truss2.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on November 01, 2011, 06:02:40 PM
I guess the next thing is to pay the man and build the walls to put them on.   :)

Ask the engineer about the necessity of rafter ties. Real engineered trusses should stand on their own because the engineer has calculated the forces. Those seem unusual the way they are configured, not at all like a scissors truss, but if an engineer did it and will provide papers that certify their purpose, that's great. Note the use of Nbr.1 lumber for some components. That's onr reason they might seem costly.

But that should be a good roof.

What kind of insulation method?

Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Crappie Slayer on November 01, 2011, 06:44:09 PM
If that is the truss company that has been in checotah for years and years... you wont beat his price by much,,, I am from that area and have never heard anything bad about the place.

I put my roof on my 16x16 and my gambrel style rafters done by myslef cost me around 1000.... so it just depends on whether you can build them yourself... your only going to be saving your time and a little money .... but it is totally up to you... but I know the place where you got that quote and I am sure you will get good trusses from them.

Shoot me an email on my private email and I will shoot you some pics of my rafters that I did all byself all by my lonesome... took them up a spiral staircase half a rafter at a time....

Okielawman28@yahoo.com

Chris
aka... Crappie Slayer
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on November 01, 2011, 08:05:36 PM
Don that is the site built truss design that comes with johns story and a half plans. Except it appears they upsized them to double 2x8's instead of 2x6's. Also johns plans call for 2' on center i believe. Wow doubled 2x8s will be heavy. Im really surprised theyre calling for 16" centers
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on November 01, 2011, 08:55:10 PM
187# each.

Not quite the same. There is the added vertical "stick" from peak down to the "horizontal tie bar" which is probably very important is the load paths.  ???  . As well as the upsized #1 lumber the sheet shows the connection plate type and it lists the calcs as being done for 90 mph winds.

I am confused about the Top and bottom chord bracing though ???

I hope Don_P reads this as I'm sure he can explain a thing or two...

Looking at the FORCES section  (I think I understand this)
TOP CHORD from point 3 to 4 or point 4 to 5  could handle a max compression load of 486 lbs, but no tension load expected.

The vertical web, point 4 to 8 (roof peak to horizontal). no compression load and a max tension load of 501 lbs.

interesting the way things work.


Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: astidham on November 01, 2011, 08:58:02 PM
my trusses are on 2' centers with no need of collar ties
mine look totally different than that one does, then again my interior side is a 9/12 pitch outside is a 12/12
you might want to get a second quote, you might try prior..
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on November 01, 2011, 08:59:05 PM
There are some things to notice in the truss report. You've noticed the spacing. Look at the loadings, as light as it gets. Notice the tension forces in the bottom chord and web connections, the #1 SYP 2x8's in the rafter legs.

This is not a minor change on the species, grade and dimension... #2 SPF has a bending strength of 875 psi, #1 SYP Fb= 1550psi. Those are the base design values of the material, when applied to the deeper member this is a considerable strength increase.

The engineering program that creates and checks this design is very powerful, I have nothing to compare and don't have the ability to do this kind of work. I can however check the rafter chords as simple uniformly loaded beams. This is not to check this design but simply to show the relative strength differences of a #2 SPF 2x6 vs a #1 SYP 2x8. I checked a 14' member in each case. The #2 SPF 2x6 failed in deflection at 330 lbs and in bending at 415 lbs. By comparison the #1 SYP 2x8 failed in deflection at 915 lbs and in bending at 1280 lbs. Again this doesn't relate to this design but is simply to show how a seemingly small change can make a pretty large difference.

The top and bottom chord bracing are typical. They keep the members of the roof in plane vertically, buckling resistance. The permanent lateral bracing of the roof is not included in this design, hopefully it is going to be fully plywood or osb sheathed.

I couldn't read footnote 12.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: davidj on November 04, 2011, 10:23:43 AM
If this really doesn't need rafter ties then it's a very useful addition to the set of roof structure options:

Pluses:
Minuses:
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on November 06, 2011, 05:18:23 AM
11-06-2011 Sunday

Truck loaded with 20 sheets of Advantech:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/11-03-2011_Advantech_Flooring_on_truck_at_Lowes.JPG)

Wife helping with floor:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/11-05-2011_Robin_doing_floor.JPG)

Day 1 of subflooring complete:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/11-05-2011_1st_subfloor_day.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: rdzone on November 07, 2011, 10:06:24 AM
I know I am a little late, but did you use any subfloor adhesive in conjunction with the screws.  It helps tie things together and helps eliminates squeaks.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: suburbancowboy on November 07, 2011, 10:51:37 AM
I second that.  I didn't and my inspector wasn't happy.  I had to renail the whole thing with 2 1/2 inch ring shank nails.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: texasgun on November 07, 2011, 11:02:54 AM
I see a calking gun laying on the sheet on the far right blew up the picture to see it.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on November 07, 2011, 02:09:44 PM
I did everything the Advantech dudes told me to do. #8 screws and Loctite PL PolyUrathan Adhesive everywhere.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on November 13, 2011, 07:29:59 PM
Sunday Night - November 13th, 2011

Advantech sub-floor complete: hence...country plan jig, jump, twirl, whatever:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/11-13-2011_al_on_subfloor.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on November 13, 2011, 07:40:33 PM
that kinda looks like an indian rain dance. send some my way these burn bans are killing me
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on November 14, 2011, 06:31:25 AM
Monday Morning - November 14th, 2011

Here's a short video of the completed sub-floor on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVN7IQ90lcs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVN7IQ90lcs)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Sassy on November 14, 2011, 02:38:24 PM
Congratulations on the sub-floor!  Looks like you have a really stout foundation now w/all the cross bracing!  Worth dancing about  :)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: duncanshannon on November 18, 2011, 08:25:51 AM
Congrats Al!  [cool]  Exciting milestone.  I'm prob. most excited to build the walls of my cabin some day... enjoy it!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on November 18, 2011, 12:48:04 PM
Thanks duncanshannon, I've got half the wood for the walls right now and I'll start the process tomorrow. I hope all is well with you and thanks for all of your input here.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on November 21, 2011, 07:09:00 AM
Monday Morning - November 21st, 2011

Ok, yesterday, I started my gable end wall. It has 5 equally spaced picture type windows (no panes - just glass). Those windows are narrow and tall (19" x 50") and will be 2' off the floor. I tried my best to lay it all out and for me, it got pretty complicated because of so many spacings, cripples, etc. I got real good at it...good at undoing what I did wrong!

Iv'e got the framing books, looked at the plans about daily, seen youtube videos, been all over countryplans, and have been studying wall building but I still made mistakes. But, it's nothing that can't be fixed and it's the first wall of my life.

This thread here at countryplans helped me to straighten up: http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=5354.msg67906#msg67906

I've got pics and other links to talk about but I have to get out of here, take the garbage out, and on the road to the plant.

It'll be fun to get on the deck and build the 'right-way'. Thank you for all of your help.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Alan Gage on November 21, 2011, 11:00:44 AM
Quote from: ajbremer on November 21, 2011, 07:09:00 AM
Monday Morning - November 21st, 2011

Ok, yesterday, I started my gable end wall. It has 5 equally spaced picture type windows (no panes - just glass). Those windows are narrow and tall (19" x 50") and will be 2' off the floor. I tried my best to lay it all out and for me, it got pretty complicated because of so many spacings, cripples, etc. I got real good at it...good at undoing what I did wrong!

d

I had the same problem on my first wall. Three windows in a row of differing widths. One got jacks and the others got header hangers so they weren't all the same. I knew what I needed to do and what my measurements were but somehow every time I double checked my layout it was wrong. I finally got it right and went home for the night. Came back the next morning to nail it together and double checked it one last time. It was wrong again!!

Finally got it right and the rest of the walls were no problem. Don't worry, it gets easier.

Alan
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on November 21, 2011, 02:06:31 PM
Quote from: ajbremer on November 21, 2011, 07:09:00 AM
Monday Morning - November 21st, 2011

Ok, yesterday, I started my gable end wall. It has 5 equally spaced picture type windows (no panes - just glass). Those windows are narrow and tall (19" x 50") and will be 2' off the floor. I tried my best to lay it all out and for me, it got pretty complicated because of so many spacings, cripples, etc. I got real good at it...good at undoing what I did wrong!

Iv'e got the framing books, looked at the plans about daily, seen youtube videos, been all over countryplans, and have been studying wall building but I still made mistakes. But, it's nothing that can't be fixed and it's the first wall of my life.

This thread here at countryplans helped me to straighten up: http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=5354.msg67906#msg67906

I've got pics and other links to talk about but I have to get out of here, take the garbage out, and on the road to the plant.

It'll be fun to get on the deck and build the 'right-way'. Thank you for all of your help.

Concerning your delimia I found it easier to layout on the top and bottom plate.  Make sure you measure the same on each.  It is easier to erase a wrong measurement than to take apart the studs.  So if you have 5 windows you are going to have 6 spaces.  Two to the outside and 4 between the windows.  Take the total width of all your windows.  Take the total width of your wall and subtract.  That will give you the amount of space available to divide into 6 spaces.  IE: Total width 192" (16') - total width of windows (5X19") 95" that gives 97" for the spacing divided by 6 = 16.166" for each space.

As for your heigth that is relitively easy.  Just calculate the sills & studs from the floor (all included) to give you a sill heigth of 24".

Yes I am bored.  Not really just waiting on someting before I proceed. 
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on November 25, 2011, 12:31:25 AM
Thursday Night - November 24th, 2011

Thanks for the tips Redoverfarm, they have been a help to me.

OK, I basically got my first wall done, it's my gable-end wall with 5 equally spaced glass pane windows that are 18x50. All I have to do is to finish up attaching the top plate being careful to leave lap spaces on the ends so the top plate of the long walls can get nailed to this gabel-end wall. Also, there is no interior wall at this gable-end, it's at the other.

I think I overkilled my wall, using more studs than I really needed to. I wonder if I could have gone with 24" centers on my gable-ends.

Those spaces for the 5 windows used a lot of upper and lower cripplers. For the headers I used 3 2x6's with a 3/4 piece of Advantek between them. That left the header thickness a tad shorter than the wall thickness but that'll be ok - my glass panes will be trimmed within the openings. Also, I'm going to use header hangers instead of trimmers under my headers. My first header was made using 3 2x12's but then I realized that using my 2x6's seemed like the better idea. This being a gable-end wall, it doesn't support as much as the long walls under the roof. Here's the link to the header hangers:

http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/HH.asp (http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/HH.asp)

I bought 50 boards (2x6x10') and thought that it was close to half the total amount I would need, as far as the 4 exterior 10' walls are concerned. Doing this one wall took almost 40 boards because of so many trimmers, cripplers, and headers. My next 3 walls are going to be easier for me (I hope).

I have a question about bracing. I have seen where diagonal studs are used as bracing or where 'some' sheathing is attached onto the wall before it is raised. The last thing I want to happen is to have my wall fall apart or something as it is being raised. BUT, my 5-window configuration leaves very little room for diagonal bracing. Should I add a few sheets of OSB for support? Because of the weight, I would rather sheath the walls after they stand.

Before I show my pics, I wanted to mention that I've been using Punch! software (Home & Landscape Design Premium V16) because I feel that it has a lot to offer me. As it's been mentioned here at countryplans, the frame rendering is of no use but there are so many more positives than negatives about the software that I've decided to stick with it.

Here are a couple of pics of a 3D View of a drawing of mine. It's pretty bare-bones but you can get a taste of those 5 windows I've mentioned and also see where the rest of my windows will go. I haven't done the loft yet so you'll see no loft windows. After these 3D pics I show a picture of the first wall of my life. After all the pictures, I have a link to a 3 minute youtube video of the completed wall on the deck with me explaining a few things. I mention an interior wall joining this gable-end wall in the video, I wasn't thinking - that interior wall will be on the other end.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20x30hld1.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20x30hld2.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20x30-5win.JPG)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tERy0DCJ390 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tERy0DCJ390)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on November 25, 2011, 08:13:00 AM
Hopefully you have some friends to help with the lift. I nail some scraps to the outside rim of the floor so I can't push the wall off the deck as I lift. You can omit the sheathing for now and lift it as is. Once it is up plumb and brace each end on the outside from the top back to the rim and the middle from near the top plate to the deck. Then put a diagonal brace across the inside to hold it plumb from racking. Keep the inside bracing out of the way of raising interior walls if at all possible. Actually at a slow pace I'd rather erect the frame before sheathing it to let any big winds blow through rather than tugging on skimpy bracing.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on November 25, 2011, 08:14:24 AM
do the hangers eliminate the need for a support stud between the sill and the header? you have no support under those headers. i am not used to building with all these hangers they use now
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on November 25, 2011, 09:26:16 AM
Friday Morning - November 25th, 2011

Hi CjAl - happy holidays. About those header hangers, yes they do eliminate the need for a support stud under them 'when you are allowed to use them'. From what I've read so far, there are some parameters. I guess, under certain conditions, that you may not be able to use them if you exceed their design load.

This all leads me to a question I've been asking myself lately. Is insulation is a better insulator than wood? From what I've been reading, yes, insulation is a better insulator than wood. So if a builder used a lot of header hangers, then that would leave room for a lot more insulation and structural integrity is still in place.

Here are some good reads about the header hangers and the code:

http://resourcecenter.pnl.gov/cocoon/morf/ResourceCenter/article/126 (http://resourcecenter.pnl.gov/cocoon/morf/ResourceCenter/article/126)

http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/HH.asp (http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/HH.asp)

Look at this 'Advanced Framing' Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ef24-Dk_f5o (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ef24-Dk_f5o)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: TheWire on November 25, 2011, 12:30:46 PM
Prior to sheeting the obvious alignment to do is square the entire wall.  However, once the wall is squared and braced, make sure you check each window & door opening for correct alignment.  It won't go out of square as much as it might shift horizontally because of warps in the studs on each side of the window opening.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: astidham on November 25, 2011, 08:32:01 PM
good progress...
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on November 27, 2011, 09:19:45 PM
Sunday Night - November 27th, 2011

Thanks for the comment astidham.

Ok, I got my first wall up today with the help of my son, son-in-law, me, and 2 neighbors. I've got it braced and everything but that's it. I guess I'll square and plumb it when another wall joins it. It is so nice to look out there now and see a wall standing.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/11-27-2011Wall1-1.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/11-27-2011Wall1-2.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on November 27, 2011, 09:25:57 PM
are those 12' walls?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on November 27, 2011, 10:05:39 PM
Hi CjAl,

No, those are 10' walls - for sure! I know why you ask though. I took another look at the pic where my wife is standing at the wall and she looks really small near it. She is only a little over 5' and the walls look way taller than 2 of her BUT, I guess it's just the way the camera angle is. With the bottom plate and two top plates it should be around 10' - 4 1/2". (Oh ya, I also think she's kind of sitting on the sill.)

Have a great new week CjAl.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on November 28, 2011, 06:09:35 AM
Don't forget to plumb and put a diagonal across the face of the walls on either the outside or inside until you sheath them. There is very little bracing them in that direction.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on November 28, 2011, 07:07:27 AM

Monday Morning - November 28th, 2011

Thanks for that reminder Don_P, I'll get right on that.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on November 28, 2011, 07:30:28 AM
haha, ok. i was thinking she was either 4' tall or those were 12' walls.

i was considering twelve foot walls so i was interested
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on November 28, 2011, 08:16:44 PM
Simpson HH

(http://www.strongtie.com/graphics/products/large/177i-2011.gif)

http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/HH.asp

Double and triple 2x studs may be necessary depending on the loads. Load info on the link above

Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on December 04, 2011, 07:57:15 PM
Sunday - December 4th, 2011

Days are colder and wetter here near mid-Oklahoma. The next few days are supposed to bring us down around and possibly below the 20 degree mark and rain and/or possible light snow is scheduled till Tuesday or so and then the suns supposed to stay out.

I went to Lowe's and got 10 more 2x6x10's ($5.50 each) and put them in my 'work truck' (my Festiva):

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/10boardfestiva.JPG)

By the way, see what I wrapped the end of the boards with, old bicycle tubes. They are the best bungee cords ever and cling tightly to most any surface, I know it for a fact! I thought of using them when, many years ago, I bicycled across America (twice, first time 4,200 miles - second time 4,600 miles) and used them to wrap much of my gear all over my bicycle. When you wrap bicycle tubes around something, you pull them really tight and simply wrap it around itself 5 or 6 times when your done with the winding and they ain't never getting loose.

Now here's a picture of the 5 of us raising wall number 1. It was me, my son, my son-in-law, my neighbor, and my neighbors friend.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/wallraise.JPG)

Now to talk a little bit about the kind of wood that Lowe's sells. As I was inspecting and choosing the 2x6x10's at Lowe's today, I noticed they felt really light weight, I thought to myself, 'man...is this balsa wood or something?) Anyway, after I got home and unloaded it onto my deck, I wrote down the information on the boards. Here's what is on them:

Idaho Forest
92  KD  HT
WWP   1/4EE
White Fir

I looked up White Fir and found a good link here: http://www.christmastree.org/trees/concolor.cfm (http://www.christmastree.org/trees/concolor.cfm). Is this wood low-grade? It was the only 2x6x10's that Lowe's carried.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on December 04, 2011, 08:31:11 PM
i noticed the same thing when doing my shed. most my lumber was from lowes. i had my nail gun set just right to drive the nails. i ran out and ran to my local parkers lumber and bought more studs. immediatly i noticed they were twice as heavy. when i went to nail them my gun was leaving all the nails about 1/2" or more out of the wood on the same settings and pressure
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on December 04, 2011, 08:52:32 PM

Wow, maybe I should be getting my lumber from somewhere else?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on December 04, 2011, 08:56:13 PM
i think its fine. my store does sell a select in 2x4 but not 2x6.

those studs i bought from parkers were a lot more expensive. there is a reason i keep running to lowes 30mi away
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on December 04, 2011, 10:44:03 PM
White fir is listed in the NDS supplement "Design Values for Wood Construction" as one of the species in the combination Hem-Fir which includes California red fir, grand fir, noble fir, pacific silver fir, western hemlock, and white fir. If you can take a picture of the stamp. Lowes does play shenanigans with lumber when they can get away with it, I'm not seeing a grade designation.  WWP is the WWPA, Western Wood Products Association, the grading agency. 92 is the mill number. KD, kiln dried to <19% moisture content. HT, heat treated in the kiln to kill pests (most kilns surpass this temp while drying). 1/4EE, 1/4" eased edge, most dimensional lumber has a 1/8" radius on the edges this has an annoyingly large radius... it makes it harder to flush up to adjoining pieces IMO.

If all things are equal (which is a tall order), moisture content, knot structure, slope of grain, reaction wood, etc, THEN the heavy stick is the strongest. Wood is strong, air has no structural capacity for our purposes. A stud is not that big a deal... unless you go notching in ledgers and adding bending loads... For floor joists and rafters try to find something better. If you are doing ledgers and a kneewall use these studs on an endwall and find something better. Preferrably #2 or better rather than stud grade.

Select, prime, top choice, hi-line, etc are not strength grades. They are appearance grades the big boxes came up with to sell pretty lumber to consumers, they indicate absolutely nothing about strength.

But to clarify, Select Structural, SS, is the top structural grade and commands a legitimate premium. I use it when a load or span requires it. I don't avoid the perfume grades above, but I'm not fooled by them either. That is marketing, I'm shopping for structure. The strength grades you typically look for from strongest to weakest; SS, #1, #2 and for vertical use and vertical load only, stud. A stud is a #3 strength with #1 edge restrictions (to allow nailing of ply and sheetrock).

And to bring this full circle, I know it is all some of you can get, but hem-fir is often crap.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on December 05, 2011, 05:33:44 AM

Thank you Don_P, that is great information. I also looked at a previous thread by you and found it very useful, here it is:

http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=9183.0 (http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=9183.0)

There's a lumber yard near me here in Oklahoma that a framer friend of mine told me to check out, it's called Mill Creek Lumber. It's actually less than a 1/2 hour from me so I'm going to try to get over there today after work and see what they provide. Thanks again Don.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: astidham on December 05, 2011, 11:27:11 AM
Quote from: ajbremer on December 05, 2011, 05:33:44 AM
Thank you Don_P, that is great information. I also looked at a previous thread by you and found it very useful, here it is:

http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=9183.0 (http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=9183.0)

There's a lumber yard near me here in Oklahoma that a framer friend of mine told me to check out, it's called Mill Creek Lumber. It's actually less than a 1/2 hour from me so I'm going to try to get over there today after work and see what they provide. Thanks again Don.
I bought the majority of my wood at mill creek.
they are about 30 minutes from me and deliver for $5.00.
the local lumber yard 5 miles from the cabin charges $30.00 to deliver, so the choice was easy.
they do have quality lumber.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on December 05, 2011, 04:28:22 PM

Thank you astidham, I kind of figured that you would have known about them. I'll be stopping by there very soon.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on December 08, 2011, 09:09:57 PM
Thursday Night - December 8th, 2011 Oklahoma

Just thought I would show you how far I've been getting in the planning stages using the Punch software. Before I continue building the rest of my walls, I want to be sure I'm satisfied with where I'll place them and the size of each. It makes the job easier using this software.

I have decided to put a nook type loft on the other end of the larger loft and instead of making another set of stairs (or some other kind of way up) I really like the idea of a cat-walk. (We own 2 cats so in reality it would be a 'cats-walk'.) Here is the rendering:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/punchcut.JPG)

And here's a look at the out side (but I'm going to be changing that loft window so we can have a better view in the nook-loft):

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/punchwall.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on December 09, 2011, 09:36:34 AM
for my own use i would think i would want the shed dormer on the main loft side. but in my application that is going to be my sons bedroom, may not be your plans. i was thinking of a small 4' loft on the other side similar to yours with a catwalk. mainly to be able to open the windows more easily.

also having the catwalk like that it would be easy to use planks between the catwalk and the top of the walls to make finishing the cieling easier
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on December 19, 2011, 08:06:15 AM
Monday Morning - December 19th, 2011 Oklahoma, USA

This is hitting the nail on the head...NOT!

I started my first long wall, built it in a 10' section.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/12-18-2011-AlHammeringwall02-02.JPG)

Regarding the picture below: I built a 10 foot section and left out the 51" wide triple 2x12 header which you see in the picture above, lifted it into a starting position on top of saw-horses and then lifted it the rest of the way by myself - it wasn't too hard. Then I had to lift the header up there and put it in place. That 51" wide triple 2x12 header (you can see it in the picture above) seemed heavier than the wall!

I think I'll try to do all external walls in sections, that way I can manage them myself. This leads me to a question: When you build a long wall in sections, what is the best method of joining them together? Is it structurally a bad idea to build walls in sections?

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/12-18-2011-Wall02Lifting2.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on December 19, 2011, 08:44:47 AM
Monday Morning - December 19th, 2011 Oklahoma, USA

Here's another youtube video of me hammering and trying not to hit my thumb or finger:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqfGLKLOq9Q (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqfGLKLOq9Q)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on December 19, 2011, 07:40:24 PM
Al don't want to sound critical but are the walls right side up.  Meaning there is no "jack studs" under the window headers but appear to be on the top.   ???  They transfer the weight from above the window down to the floor.  The header redistributes the weight to them so the window will not carry the weight from above.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on December 19, 2011, 09:14:46 PM
Monday Night - December 19th, 2011 Oklahoma, USA

Hi Redoverfarm, I'm glad you've commented.

Yes you are correct in seeing that there are no jack studs under those windows. I am going to  be installing Strong Tie Header Hangers to take the place of the jack studs. My local Lowes has a lot of Strong Tie stuff but not the header hangers so I'm going to have to look for them somewhere else. In a few posts above I mention the header hangers and show a link to them and talk about them.

Thanks a lot sir and have a wonderful Christmas, Al.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on December 19, 2011, 10:36:26 PM
You can build walls in sections, with normally just the two of us framing we do that quite often and like you I'll leave out big headers if it is getting unwieldy. I layout the full length of plates and break them halfway on studs. Be aware of intersecting walls and layout the lower top plate to give a long lap over breaks for the upper top plate. If I need to install headers later I'll leave out the adjoining studs to make side nailing easier. We had a couple of 17' tall walls to frame on one job. The first wall just about came back over us, i built the others entirely upright, in place, stick by stick. There's more than one way to skin a cat.  Although the cat doesn't really appreciate any of them   :D.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: mgramann on December 29, 2011, 12:12:41 PM
I don't mean to hijack, but knowing you are planning on using header hangers to improve insulation, I had an idea that may further help.  You mentioned you tripled up 2x12 headers.  I might be remembering wrong, but I have seen 2 boards used instead of 3, with rigid foam insulation sandwiched between them.  I suspect this would have an insulation advantage, but am wondering if this is a correct building technique. 

If so, would a horizontal 2x6 laid flat across the top of header be needed so the jack studs would be 100% supported?  Without it, the jack studs would not be supported in the center since insulation has minimal structural value.  Would that be overkill?

Again, insulation seems to be important to you, so I thought this was a good place to ask.

Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on January 10, 2012, 06:14:02 AM
Tuesday - January 10th, 2012

It's been a year, one month, and 20 days since we took the first picture of our uncleared lot. Here's a then and now shot:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/01-10-2012-start-to-now.JPG)

As of 'now', we have 1/2 the external walls done:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/1-08-2012-2wallsdone-a.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on January 17, 2012, 07:13:56 AM
Tuesday Morning - January 17th, 2012 @ 6:02am

Last weekend I did another 10' section. I'm getting excited to see these external walls completed. I figure my next step, after the external walls are complete, is to put the ledger boards in all along the long walls, build the few interior walls, put the loft I-beam joists in and then the flooring. That way, I can be up top to build my roof.

What would be the best size of board for my ledger, 2x6's, 2x8's? Also, I realize that I could have ganged-up my ledger cuts but now I'll have to cut them standing up. What would be the best way to go about doing all of those notch-cuts?

Anyway, here's that last section of wall we did:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/1-15-2012_Gable_Wall_2_Section_1d.JPG)

And another shot:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/1-15-2012_Gable_Wall_2_Section_1b.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Bob S. on January 17, 2012, 12:18:56 PM
Your place is looks GREAT!! I like the way you have stiffened up the foundation. Have you considered adding a 2X4 sister to support the floor joist and omitting the need for a ledger board?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: nysono on January 18, 2012, 06:25:58 AM
I used 2 x 10 for my ledger board but did not notch them into the wall studs, instead, nailed with 4 20d nails, every stud.  The inspector was fine withthat but suggested that there are specific ledger screws ( purchased at HD) that he said would have been better....??increased shear strength???
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: RIjake on January 18, 2012, 08:00:36 AM
I used 2x6s for my ledger and cut them in while the wall was on the floor.  It was easy when it was horizontal and it added stiffness to the assembly.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on January 18, 2012, 06:42:16 PM
Wednesday Late Afternoon - January 18th, 2012 @ 5:07pm Oklahoma

Thank you RIjake, nysono, and Bob S., I really appreciate your comments.

2 x 4's sistered to the other studs sounds like a pretty simple way to go about supporting the loft joists. I would also guess that it would be strong enough, others have done that here. BUT, I feel the best and strongest solution is to use 2x6's all down the long wall with a ledger cut in each stud.

This is how I think I should cut my ledger cuts, please let me know the best way:

I guess since my walls are already standing, I would snap a chalk line all the way down the long wall where the top and bottom of the 2x6 horizontal ledger board will be. Then I cut into the studs where the upper and lower chalk lines are with the correct depth set on a circular saw (around 1 5/8"?). Then what? Use a jig-saw in between studs in order to 'pop out' the chunk?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on January 18, 2012, 07:15:05 PM
Al you could also use a router if available.  If you do not have a coller to fit your router bit for a jig you could measure from the line in opposite directions (above and below the line to remove) and attach a scrap to your wall stud for your router base to ride against.  The distance would be from one side of the base to the opposite site of the bit.  If you used a piece of scrap 2X and then 3/4 board in a "L" fashion you could attach with clamps in the tall leg against the stud.  The 2X scrap would be flush to the stud surface and the 1X would be raised 3/4" from the face.  Attach the 1X to the 2X with a couple dry-wall screws.  Use a framing square to get the bracket exactly 90 deg when assembling.   Once you cut the lower or upper line just reposition the "L" bracket to the opposite side to cut the other line..

Sort of crude but may help explain.


                                                                       ! 2  ! s  !
                                                                       ! X  ! t  !
                                                      CLAMP>>>! 4  ! u !
                                                                       !__ ! d !___
                                                                       !_1X4_____                                                                           
                                                                             !    !
                                                                             !    !
                                                                             !    !
                                                                             ____
                                                                             ! N !
                                                                             ! O !
                                                              LEDGER   ! T !  LEDGER
                                                                             ! C !
                                                                             ! H !
                                                                            ____

                                                   
                                                                           
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Alan Gage on January 18, 2012, 09:45:11 PM
QuoteI guess since my walls are already standing, I would snap a chalk line all the way down the long wall where the top and bottom of the 2x6 horizontal ledger board will be. Then I cut into the studs where the upper and lower chalk lines are with the correct depth set on a circular saw (around 1 5/8"?). Then what? Use a jig-saw in between studs in order to 'pop out' the chunk?

If you go this route (with the saw) I think it would be easier to make multiple cuts in the area where the 2x6 will go. Cut the top and bottom edges and then make a few more cuts between them. Then knock the pieces out with a hammer. If the breakout isn't clean enough clean it up with a chisel or just run the circular saw across it.

Alan
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on January 18, 2012, 10:08:17 PM
Exactly. I set the saw to 1-1/2" depth and make a series of cuts ~1/4" apart and halfway across the full 2x6 cutout. knock that waste out. Holding the guard back (Put your goggles on we're crossing the OSHA line) Slide the saw up and down as it rests on the edge of the stud while advancing it through the cut zone... using the saw as a router. Move down, notch, knock out and smooth the lower half of the notch.

These little chips and chunks love to jam a saw guard. Double check that it has fully returned at the end of each cycle of smoothing.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on January 19, 2012, 05:49:02 AM
Thursday Morning - January 19th, 2012 @ 4:37am Oklahoma

Explainations are very clear ya'll, thank you for the advice.

I don't own a router 'yet', I've been getting my house building power tools as I need them. I will likely be using the circular saw method explained above.

Seems like notching studs and using ledger boards serves more than just one purpose and are therefore the better method. There holding up the loft joists, the wall is braced better and becomes more like one unit, and there's another surface to nail to when applying the inside walls.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on January 19, 2012, 08:07:50 AM
Al just throwed that technique out there for those who do not feel comfortable using a circular saw in a awkward location.  I  for one have done let-in's in that fashion as described by Don.  I might just add when cutting the kerfs that you do so that the wide part of the saw foot will always ride on undistrubed or solid portion of the stud.  My Mikata has a wide foot on the left of the blade so essentially I would start at the top mark and work down ( right handed).  If I were to start at the bottom this would allow the foot to possibily dip down (too deep) by the time I reached the top mark.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on January 19, 2012, 08:56:26 AM
Notching weakens the studs in the direction you do not want to weaken them if any roof thrust is present. Don't fool yourself, take care of the roof thrust.

I do agree with John, this is getting into kind of advanced saw work... or potentially dangerous. Practice on your sawhorses first and then make sure you have a good place to stand while working. If you dip the saw in it can kick back pretty hard. The real piece of safety gear is between your ears  ;).
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: texasgun on January 19, 2012, 10:19:05 AM
Al sometime when I have a cut to make like that that needs to line up across mutiple studs I chalkline it just like you said but then I find a long straight board measure my saw bottom and screw the board up for a guide it sure helps when making awakward cuts, and when your saw starts to get heavy. It only takes a couple of minutes to put one top and bottom and assures you dont get outside the lines and all your cuts line up. :)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on January 23, 2012, 07:08:21 AM
Monday Morning (You sure look fine...[Fleetwood]) January 23rd, 2012 @ 5:49am Oklahoma

Thanks texasgun, Don_P, and Redoverfarm for the comments about the ledgers. I think I'm going
to go ahead and use the sister stud method. I like what Don_P said about the notches and how
they weaken the studs. It makes sense, you remove material and the strength goes. I know
I know it's only a 20x30 and my snow load is not like Alaska and notching would work with no
problems but I'm choosing the sister-stud method because it's a lot easier. Thank you all for
taking the time to help me like that.

This last weekends project was to put an interior wall with a door in it and then add a 36x36
window to the back end of our 12x32 storage cabin. As I've said when I first started this post,
about a year ago I didn't know the difference between a joist and a rafter - I just never had built
anything. Now this was the first window of my life, I never installed one before. I knew mostly
what to do because of me building my place and watching you all here but there was a few
things I never realized so I had a good time, learned a lot, and I'm more confident about installing
my own windows now.

You can see our countryplan build in the background and also the motor-home where we live in these
pics here:

(Pics coming soon)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/1-22-2012_12x32window1.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/1-22-2012_12x32window2.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/1-22-2012_12x32window3.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: beckhamk on January 23, 2012, 07:48:50 AM
I went with the jack stuf. I thought the ledger was alot more work and time consuming method vs the extra stud.  PLus i asked pretty much the same question and saw that ledger might not meet code and about the weaker.  So we went the extra stud route.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on January 23, 2012, 09:35:32 PM
Just made a little but maybe significant observation Al.  When you trim your windows out allow the verticle legs to come all the way down to the bottom of your lower horizontal trim board.  The water is running down. ???  Don't give it a gap to enter before it drops off the end away from the window.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on January 24, 2012, 05:40:18 AM
Tuesday Morning - January 24th, 2012 @ 4:14am Oklahoma

Thank you Redoverfarm,

That's a great tip. I plan to make the change as soon as possible. I also realize that there's no roof
overhang on the gable ends of my 12x32 storage building so rain could really pound the side of the
building. I need to make awnings above my windows.

Here's a good read, Wikipedia's study of 'Awning': http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awning)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on January 24, 2012, 10:36:57 PM
Tuesday Night - January 24th, 2012 @ 9:33pm Oklahoma

Thanks again for your comment redoverfarm, I changed the trim on that window today in order to match your tip.
Now the vertical trim boards go down to the bottom of the lower horizontal trim board. Thank you sir.

Here's the pic of 'edited' window:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/1-24-2012_12x32_window4.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: muldoon on January 24, 2012, 11:44:08 PM
Al,

I always love seeing this thread when I pop in.  Your doing a great job, I love how you are learning as you go and making adjustments as necessary with new information...  sometimes with some pain I imagine.  Even though your moving along fast I still can't wait to see how it finishes, it's gonna be great. 
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on January 25, 2012, 06:26:25 AM
Wednesday Morning - January 25th, 2012 @ 5:11am Oklahoma

Thanks for the uplifting comment muldoon.

I went back and read through your '16x24 Used Gambrel Barn in Texas' thread, I got a lot of great ideas from it and just wondered why there hasn't been postings on it. 16x24 is the same square footage as my 12x32 but if I could go back I think I would rather have more width then length.

( muldoon's thread: http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=4737.0 (http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=4737.0) )

Do you have another build thread here and how it that place coming along? I also couldn't help but notice the
classical guitar off in the corner pictured in your thread. There's no better feeling than to get in your own place and hit a couple of sweet notes and chords! I play Chet Atkins and Jerry Reed stuff mostly on my nylon string. I kind of have a mini-recording studio and lay down my own tracks. Here's a link to a soft and nice tune that Jerry Reed and Chet Atkins did in 1972, I tried my best to copy the exact way that they sounded together. I recorded two tracks using my classical, added keyboard and percussion - it turned out pretty good:

Listen here: http://www.mrmachinist.net/serenade.mp3 (http://www.mrmachinist.net/serenade.mp3)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Sassy on January 25, 2012, 07:30:35 PM
Nice - thanks for posting!  Enjoyed listening   :)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: carroll on January 25, 2012, 10:05:23 PM
I agree with Sassy -- very nice!

And I like the look of your windows as well -- learn at least one new thing every day on this forum -- and usually a whole lot more than just one!

I'm enjoying following your progress.

:)
carroll
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: carroll on January 25, 2012, 10:06:13 PM
PS  I enjoyed listening -- thank you for sharing your music with us!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on January 26, 2012, 09:19:27 AM
if you are going to use extra studs to hold up the ledger I think you should first install a 2x on the floor as a bottom plate. Then cut and placw the suds on top of that and against the existing studs. That will help spread out the load and give a nailer for any base trim. Maybe you were going to do that but I thought I'd mrntion it.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on January 30, 2012, 06:56:37 AM
Monday Morning - January 30th, 2012 Oklahoma

Thanks for mentioning that Don but I'm not sure I fully understand. Do you mean to add
bottom plates between the existing studs and then add the ledger studs to that while
attaching the ledger studs to the existing studs? Or, do you mean to add another bottom
plate in front of the wall, add studs on top of that, and then add a ledger board on top of
those? That don't sound right, then there would be kind of like another wall in
front of the existing wall?

Thank you Don, I always appreciate your posts.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on January 30, 2012, 07:05:30 AM
Monday Morning - January 30th, 2012 Oklahoma

Ok, I got another 10' section of wall up this weekend and almost completed the start
of the last long wall. My external walls are almost complete and I'm getting pretty excited
about my loft joists and loft floor going up.

I had some helpers over the weekend:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/1-29-2012_WallLiftByFriends.JPG)

If I time it right, I always like to ask friends who come over if they want to help raise a wall, then I'll ask them
if they ever have had the chance to do that. If they never did, their usually pretty excited to
help and it's real easy when there are helpers. My wife's friends actually started to lift up the
wall but I had to tell them to stop and wait for me to get in the middle in order to guide it. It
was a great weekend with friends over and they raised their first wall!

Here's the first 10' section of the last long wall ready to be nailed and put up:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/1-29-2012_Walls1.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on January 30, 2012, 11:51:58 AM
Quotenot sure I fully understand

I think we're both slightly confused about the other means. Drawings would help, but I'm short on time this AM so will have to try another word image.   The reference to using a ledger has me thinking that you intend to still use a ledger board, but not cut into the studs. So that makes it seem like there has to be a 2x on the inside-the-room face of the wall stud to hold up that ledger. Then the loft floor joists would sit on the ledger and also be nailed to the wall stud. That extra 2x would need / should have a plate under it.

OR, what you probably are meaning to do... a jack/short stud is to be inserted into the wall cavity and nailed to the wall stud. The loft floor joist would be resting on top of that extra stud and also nailed to the wall stud. That would not need a ledger board at all.

Hope that makes sense.... pictures don't need interpretation but I agree they are sometimes more time consuming to make.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on January 31, 2012, 06:31:12 AM
Hi Don,

Thanks for the post. You are correct, jack studs inserted into the wall cavity and resting on
the bottom plates is what I'm planning on using to hold up my loft i-joists (20 foot span/16"oc).
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on January 31, 2012, 06:40:36 AM
Tuesday Morning - January 31st, 2012 Oklahoma

Yesterday I got my first 10' section of the last external wall up. I should be done with
the external walls very soon and then I'll begin my loft floor so that I can build
my roof up there.

Wife can't lift the wall with the kitty on it!

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/1-30-2012_Wall1.JPG)

Wall section up, just about dark, time to call it a night:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/1-30-2012_Wall2.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: rdzone on January 31, 2012, 12:20:10 PM
Just a quick question on the window openings, I see headers, but no trimmer studs supporting the headers, are those windows on the gable ends??
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on January 31, 2012, 12:38:01 PM
Quote from: ajbremer on December 19, 2011, 09:14:46 PM
Monday Night - December 19th, 2011 Oklahoma, USA

Hi Redoverfarm, I'm glad you've commented.

Yes you are correct in seeing that there are no jack studs under those windows. I am going to  be installing Strong Tie Header Hangers to take the place of the jack studs. My local Lowes has a lot of Strong Tie stuff but not the header hangers so I'm going to have to look for them somewhere else. In a few posts above I mention the header hangers and show a link to them and talk about them.

Thanks a lot sir and have a wonderful Christmas, Al.

Chuck I thought the same thing and asked Al about them.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: rdzone on January 31, 2012, 01:40:48 PM
Thanks I missed that post. 
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on January 31, 2012, 08:04:18 PM
Thanks for the comment rdzone.

Yes, those windows are in the gable end.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: NM_Shooter on February 04, 2012, 10:09:24 PM
I see heavy duty headers on your gable ends with no jack studs. 

The load bearing side walls have no headers. 

Why is this?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on February 04, 2012, 10:27:50 PM
I think it's past time you get those HH simpson things installed Al. Before you forget and nail on some sheathing.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on February 04, 2012, 11:27:50 PM
Yep my thoughts also Don.  He could probably save a lot of explanations on why he built the wall upside down. ;D
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on February 05, 2012, 11:28:32 AM
Sunday Morning - February 5th, 2012 Oklahoma

I raised my last exterior wall last night.

I'm thankful for this mild winter that we're having here in Oklahoma. The forecast says
that it's supposed to be at least in the 50's for the high all through next week. The lows,
just before sunrise, are barely into the freezing mark.

Me and my wife raised all our walls except the very first 20' gable end wall with the 5
equally spaced windows. (The ones with no trimmer studs under their headers because
I'll be using Strong Tie HH6 header hangers.) After realizing that I had to have 5 guys in
order to raise that first 20' wall, I built all the rest as 10' sections so that me and my wife
can experience lifting the walls together.

I'm so happy that I'm able to have my wife help me when it comes to lifting the walls. It's not
hard for her and I always tell her not to try lifting real hard, just help out a bit and help me to
guide it. In fact there was one section that I did lift by myself.

The only trouble me and my wife ever had lifting a section was when I ordered a couple
hundred dollars worth of 2x6x10 footers and they were real heavy because they had high
moisture content. I had one section that had a lot of studs in it and it was just too heavy
and would have been dangerous for us to try to lift. I got my neighbor over to help with
that section and it was easy with the three of us.

It's crazy! One board I can lift with 2 fingers and it'll feel like balsa wood,
another board from a different lumber yard will seem like it weighs 40 or 50 pounds. There
was so much moisture in one board that as I drove a nail through it I noticed sap squeezed out
the side of it!

One trick I used in order to make the sections liftable was to leave out the headers and install
them after the wall is up, the headers aren't needed until the roof goes on anyway BUT I have
to be sure to install all headers that I've left out before I put my sheathing over their openings.
(Thank you for reminding me of that Don.)

Here is a pic from my Chief Architect software:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/2-05-2012-3d.JPG)

And here's some pictures of my build that I took this morning:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/2-05-2012_Wall1.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/2-05-2012_Wall5.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/2-05-2012_Wall4.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on February 05, 2012, 12:43:37 PM
QuoteThere was so much moisture in one board that as I drove a nail through it I noticed sap squeezed out the side of it!


If that was supposed to be kiln dried lumber somebody fell down badly on the task of keeping it dry, I think.  n* The only wood I've used that "spit" at me has been PT that was recently treated.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on February 05, 2012, 01:58:56 PM
Thanks Don,

I have seen pressure treated wood that looked and felt very moist also. Of course the wood I bought wasn't pressure treated.

Someone told me that I should check out this one particular lumber place in Muskogee, Oklahoma and that they are the one place where I should get my wood. Well, Lowe's sells those 2x6x10 footers for $5.27 a board, about a month ago they were $5.40 each. Lowe's wood is always really good, in fact they are the best overall so far, never any wane condition at all.

Well, I called that Muskogee lumber place to ask them questions and they said that they had 2x6x10's and that they were $4.80 a piece and that's the lowest price I've seen so far. When I asked about delivery they said that they deliver for free. So I went ahead and ordered 50 of them. I came home that night, it was dark, and it looked like they gave me extra pieces that were 12 footers.

When I finally got time to check out that wood pile in the daylight, I noticed that they only gave me 38 2x6x10's and the rest were 12 footers. They actually gave me a bunch of extra 12 footers. I wondered why they said they had 10 footers and only gave me 38 of them. I ended up using as much of the good stuff as I could. I know, I should have called them back and demanded them to give me good stuff or my money back but I didn't. I am going to call them about it Monday.

Here is a definition of that condition called, 'Wane':

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/wane.JPG)

Here is some of the wood from the load that I'm posting about. You'll notice the long 12 footer on the left and the other two pieces that I cut off of other boards.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/wane_from_millcreek.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on February 05, 2012, 02:22:36 PM
Did that stuff have a grade stamp?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on February 05, 2012, 03:16:29 PM
From what I see, the grade stamp is this:

Wwp (circled)
408 (with a small circled 'r' under it)
#2
S-GRN
1/4 EE
D/Fir triangle

I just learned and realized that the load of wood I got was S-GRN stamped. That means that it's OVER 19% moisture content. I never realized that you have to ask a lumber yard about the type of wood/stamp before you should order or buy your wood. Man, I've learned so much from this forum and from you guys - thanks Don! Why do lumber yards do that to a guy! Now I know why that one 10' section of wall was so heavy for me to lift that I had to get my neighbor.

I'll have to look somewhere to see how much wane a board can have and still pass grade.

Here is where I found the grade stamp definition:

http://www2.wwpa.org/SERVICES/QualityAssurance/GradeStamps/tabid/434/Default.aspx (http://www2.wwpa.org/SERVICES/QualityAssurance/GradeStamps/tabid/434/Default.aspx)

Here's a picture of the grade stamp on back of that 12' board:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/wane_board_grade.JPG)

And here is the same stamp on a board with that same condition of wane:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/wane_board_grade1.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/wane_board_grade2.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on February 05, 2012, 07:28:35 PM
#2 wane: 1/3 the thickness and 1/3 the width full length, or equivalent on each face, provided that wane does not exceed 2/3 the thickness or 1/2 the width for up to 1/4 the length. Remember my quick lesson in grading #1=1/4 defect,#2=1/3,#3=half defect... it holds here. Basically a #2 grade assumes that the controlling defect will affect 1/3 of the section somewhere in the stick. The allowable design values, the strength calcs, take this into account.

Wood is... complicated. Dougfir is a strong species, it is fairly often Surfaced Green. Wane is something that really catches peoples eye, which is why the big boxes that cater to DIYers developed the cosmetic grades like "prime" which severely limit wane. The wood will more than likely still contain a defect which limits the board to a #2 but people don't have the same negative reaction to a 1/3 section knot that they do to wane.

Structurally I have no problem picking up those waney edge pieces everyone else leaves behind. Why? The clearest lumber is the "jacket boards" the outer wood just under the bark. There are generally fewer knots and it is more mature, straighter grained, than the wood that is from closer to the core. Generally when I saw I'll "chase the grade" My first board will be from the best face and I'll saw boards from that face until I see the grade drop below one of the other faces at which point I'll turn and saw from that face. When I see the grade dropping as each successive board falls away it will usually drop a grade with each successive board on the way to the heart. At some point I'll often make the decision to box a 6x6 or 4x4 out of the heart. Many people think the "best" wood is deep within the tree, structurally it is usually just under the bark and with that you'll often get some wane.

As I write this it is wide open to several other ways to think about "best". Did I mention wood is complicated  :)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on February 05, 2012, 08:15:56 PM
Thank you so much Don_P!

I looked up some information about the 'S-GRN' designation (Surface Green). It has to do
with moisture content being more than 19%.

While doing a little google study on 'S-GRN', I found this text from 'This Old House':

3. Moisture Content
"Green" unseasoned lumber fresh from the mill is labeled either air-dried (AD) or surface-green (S-GRN). Its moisture content of 19 percent or more makes it inexpensive, but it can move unpredictably as it shrinks and dries. You'll get less movement with kiln-dried (KD) or surface-dry (S-DRY) lumber, which has a moisture content between 16 and 19 percent. (KD-HT means the wood was also heat treated to kill pests, a requirement for imported lumber.) Tom saves money by ordering S-GRN wood when framing a new house, figuring that all the wood will air dry at the same pace. But in an existing house where the framing is already dry, he'll use more stable, and more costly, KD lumber, or even MC-15 lumber, which has a moisture content of 15 percent or less. The two remaining designations, while not very useful to a homeowner, enable grading agencies to enforce their standards.


Well, he said '...all the wood will air dry at the same pace.' Isn't it a better deal to still try to get the driest wood possible?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on February 05, 2012, 10:15:47 PM
QuoteWell, he said '...all the wood will air dry at the same pace.' Isn't it a better deal to still try to get the driest wood possible?
IMO, well and in the opinion of the Forest Products Labs, the American Wood Council and others... YES! get it as close to the in service moisture content as possible. For framing that's going to be KD19, typical interior wood from the big box will be KD15, for interior high end, cabinets etc I try to shoot for 12% and flooring at 8%. The equilibrium in the house tonight based on temperature and relative humidity looks like 8.6%. My 19% framing is now at that moisture content as is the rest of the wood. Notice that I try harder (and pay more) to get closer to the in service moisture content as the joinery becomes more exacting. I don't want gaps in the floors or cabinets, I'm a bit more tolerant with the T&G and am fairly lenient on the framing as it will get rained on but will have plenty of time to finish air drying down to equilibrium before I install the finish work.

That said, I've kicked the squirrels out of the tree in the morning and been nailing up lumber in the afternoon... but that is not for a residence. I'll typically sticker lumber off the mill and air dry it till it is ready. On the current job I used the large oak timbers after they had air dried for about a year. At 8x8 they were still quite green. The 1" and 2" jacket boards that we sawed on the way to those timbers have been stickered and air drying and are at 15-17%. They will be used for cabinets and trim. I have my small kiln on site and will finish drying the wood before we start processing it further. Right now there are thousands of pounds of wood on the covered porch and the mason has several thousand pounds of rock staged there, they'll never have a party that heavy. For our house we brought the wood into the living room, stickered and air dried it. Towards the end of the heating season it was ready.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on February 07, 2012, 07:16:39 AM
Tuesday Morning - February 7th, 2012 Oklahoma

Thank you for that information Don_P!

Yesterday, after work, I added the trimmer studs to my gable end windows. I was going
to use Strong Tie Header Hangers until I found out that Lowe's said they were $18+ each.

In the following picture of the inserted trimmer studs you can also see the window panes that I'm
going to put into the 5 equally spaced spots. The panes are commercial double paned and Low-e.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/2-07-2012_wintrims.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on February 07, 2012, 10:11:02 AM
Ouch on that $$.  The prices are all over the place. When I look it up on HD they sell the HH6 at $8.44 and shipping is free on $45 or more.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on February 10, 2012, 08:41:03 PM
Friday Night - February 10th, 2012 Oklahoma

Yesterday I had 5 i-joist delivered and a few more 2x6x10's so that I can start my loft floor.
The i-joist were $38.56 each. They are TJI-Joist (230's) and they are made by Weyerhaeuser. You
can find them at www.ilevel.com, here is the link to the ijoists:

http://www.woodbywy.com/floors/f_TJI_joists.aspx (http://www.woodbywy.com/floors/f_TJI_joists.aspx)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/2-09-2012ijoist1.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on February 10, 2012, 09:14:56 PM
You are going to sheath all the exterior walls before getting into any of that work above the subfloor? 

Walls squared, plumb & sheathed.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on February 10, 2012, 09:54:32 PM
Friday Night - February 10th, 2012 Oklahoma

Thanks again Don,

Thank you for reminding me about finishing the walls before messing around and doing loft stuff. I
actually got all excited about the loft I wasn't even thinking about the walls. Don_P had also mentioned
that same thing on this post:

http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=11856.0 (http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=11856.0)

I would be in so much trouble without you guys! Thank you again Don.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on February 12, 2012, 03:49:10 PM
Sunday Afternoon - February 12th, 2012 Oklahoma

I've been out there working all day so far. I've been leveling and plumbing the walls. I
put small blocks up at top plates and did the string line thing to see how straight the
walls were. They were all pretty good. I used the cleated board with a kicker method
to move one long wall into place and then braced it. One gable end wall was really hard
to move so I used one of my I-Joist, a chain, and a come-along to pull it into place and then
I braced it. I put the I-Joist in between the door openings. Here's a picture of that:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/2-12-2012wallchain.JPG)

I also started to do my sheathing, here's pics of that:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/2-12-2012sheath1.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/2-12-2012sheath2.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/2-12-2012sheath3.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on February 13, 2012, 06:32:29 AM
Monday Morning - February 13th, 2012 Oklahoma

I thought I would share these videos with you. They show me straightening the walls
and using a string-line at the top with little standoff blocks. They also show the beginnings
of the sheathing process. I used 19/32 Norbord and ran it down to the lip of the angle-iron
pier foundation unit. It worked out pretty good, that angle iron lip sticks out the thickness
of the sheathing so I just have to lift the sheets up while they catch on the lip that holds
them.

In the middle video I mention that I'm going to start the sheathing process by putting
one sheet at each corner but instead of doing that I'm just going around the whole thing
all at once. I also need to mention that there are still one or two headers that I have to
put in, I will do that before I cover them up with the sheets.

In this first early floor joist picture, before the videos, you can see what I mean about the angle iron that
holds the rim joists up and sticks out enough for the sheathing to catch:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/10-09-2011crossbracingdonec.JPG)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FE1z17F4zMs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FE1z17F4zMs)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iofK-7vmBg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iofK-7vmBg)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amVaGf3im98 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amVaGf3im98)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: NM_Shooter on February 13, 2012, 12:53:42 PM
I'm noticing that your top plates are splicing together at points that are not directly above a stud.  I've always avoided doing that, but I don't know what code says about that sort of thing.  Don / Peg,  any comments?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on February 13, 2012, 03:48:32 PM
IRC2009
R602.3.2 Top plate.

Wood stud walls shall be capped with a double top plate installed to provide overlapping at corners and intersections with bearing partitions. End joints in top plates shall be offset at least 24 inches (610 mm). Joints in plates need not occur over studs. Plates shall be not less than 2-inches (51 mm) nominal thickness and have a width at least equal to the width of the studs.

Exception: A single top plate may be installed in stud walls, provided the plate is adequately tied at joints, corners and intersecting walls by a minimum 3-inch by 6-inch by a 0.036-inch-thick (76 mm by 152 mm by 0.914 mm) galvanized steel plate that is nailed to each wall or segment of wall by six 8d nails on each side, provided the rafters or joists are centered over the studs with a tolerance of no more than 1 inch (25 mm). The top plate may be omitted over lintels that are adequately tied to adjacent wall sections with steel plates or equivalent as previously described.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on February 15, 2012, 05:44:38 AM
Wednesday Morning - February 15th, 2012 Oklahoma

I put up a sheet or so near the doorway yesterday. Here's a view from
the top of our motor home (before I put up the sheet or so):

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/2-14-2012topofmotorhome.JPG)

I posed for a view from the front (there always seems to be a cat in the pictures):

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/2-14-2012alinfront3.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on February 15, 2012, 07:59:21 PM
Wednesday Night - February 15th, 2012 Oklahoma

I put a couple more sheets up after work today:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/2-15-2012Sheathing1.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/2-15-2012Sheathing2.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/2-15-2012Sheathing4.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on February 18, 2012, 05:20:56 AM
Saturday Morning - February 18th, 2012 Oklahoma

I no longer care if I have a cathedral ceiling or not. I would like to have my roof
change pitch from 12:12 to 6:12 like so. What would be the easiest way to do
this, site built trusses, or ridge board? Would I just use double rafters at the
point where the pitch change is if I use the ridge board method? The ridge board
seems like the easiest and most common method.

Here is a pic of what I want:

(Pic coming soon)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/6-12pitch.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on February 18, 2012, 08:40:28 AM
That 6/12 roof could be stick framed or trussed for a level ceiling or use a ridgebeam if the ceiling is... or might ever need to be a cathedral. The same applies to the front roof. To leave the most options a ridgebeam would be used, and at some point someone is going to want to cathedral those ceilings. If you can trace support down to the footings for a post at each end and one at the pitch change I would frame it with ridgebeams.

Start studying sidewall and kickout flashing details  ;).
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MWAndrus on February 18, 2012, 09:35:13 AM
This is a stud plan that I had drawn up for one of the house ideas that we had been tossing around. The ceiling in the living room isn't a cathedral, but it is raised a little to give the room a bit more height. We did this to make it cheaper to insulate and easier to drywall.

(https://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff455/andrusmw/20x40.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: astidham on February 18, 2012, 08:13:56 PM
I have a friend building a house here in oklahoma right now that looks almost identical.
here it is,
(https://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l532/jerrymcgarrah/2012-01-31133205.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on February 18, 2012, 08:25:41 PM
Thanks astidham, that's an awesome looking house. It looks like he extended out a little bit
for a future porch. Did he use the ridge beam method? You should get him to post his stuff
here on countryplans.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: astidham on February 18, 2012, 10:30:26 PM
Quote from: ajbremer on February 18, 2012, 08:25:41 PM
Thanks astidham, that's an awesome looking house. It looks like he extended out a little bit
for a future porch. Did he use the ridge beam method? You should get him to post his stuff
here on countryplans.

yes he did use a ridge beam.

also he is a fellow spirit brother too!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on February 21, 2012, 06:58:38 AM
Tuesday Morning - February 21st, 2012 Oklahoma

Finished the main interior wall.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/2-20-2012InteriorWall2.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on February 22, 2012, 11:21:44 PM
Wednesday Night - February 22nd, 2012 Oklahoma

Today I had wood delivered. 20 sheets of 7/16 4x8, some 2x4x10's, some 2x6x10's
and one really long board that I'm going to use for my ridge board. It's a 2x8x32 feet long board
and it cost me $47.00 (they had it in stock). I'm trying to manage the 32' board here in these first pics:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/2-22-2012ridgeboard2.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/2-22-2012ridgeboard1.JPG)

And I've been continuing the sheathing process:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/2-22-2012Sheath1.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/2-22-2012Sheath2.JPG)

Here is the truck that delivered the wood, it had a huge boom on it:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/2-22-2012millcreektruck1.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on February 22, 2012, 11:31:46 PM
I have a ridge board question.

I'm planning on using a 2x8x30' ridge board and 2x6 rafters. I want to support my ridge board real soon
but I haven't investigated how to figure the height to put it. Since the roof pitch is 12:12 then the 20'
buildings center will be 10 feet from edge so I put my ridge board in the exact middle of the width. Since
it's a 45 degree angle, the width is the same as the height - 10 feet. But what about the birds mouth
cuts and 45 degree angle cuts up on the rafters, where do they fit in the calculation? How high form the floor
or wall cap plate do I put the very top of the ridge board?

I have that framing book, I have my plans, and I know I can also search countryplans but I thought I would shoot this question out first.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on February 23, 2012, 07:18:02 AM
I'm sort of lost with the recent changes, can you post drawings of what you are planning?
How are you insulating the roof?
How are you tieing the rafters together?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on February 23, 2012, 12:38:07 PM
Hi Don_P,

Thanks for helping Don. I plan to insulate the roof using collar ties (no open cathedral). The rafters
are tied together with collar ties and rafter ties where there is no loft. I was thinking that it's the same method that I've
seen on many builds here at countryplans where they use a ridge beam. Am I thinking correctly?

I can't do drawings here from work but I will try later if need be.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on February 23, 2012, 02:29:05 PM
Quote from: ajbremer on February 22, 2012, 11:31:46 PM
I'm planning on using a 2x8x30' ridge board and 2x6 rafters.

Quote from: ajbremer on February 23, 2012, 12:38:07 PM
............ where they use a ridge beam.

I'm confused too, the above quotes are not the same thing. A 2x8 will be a ridge board. A ridge board does nothing structurally; just a thing to nail the rafter tips to and keep the rafters pairs positioned until the roof sheathing is nailed in place.  A ridge beam is something much more substantial and actually carries roof load down the the ground via columns. There are no columns in the design the way it is presented here.

Rafters (with ridge board) require rafter ties someplace in the lower third of the rafter triangle to properly restrain roof loads from bearing excessive outward horizontal force on the stub walls that extend above the loft floors.

If insulation is to be placed in any part of the sloped roof 2x6 rafters are, IMO, totally unsuitable. A 2x6 may be able to carry the structural load, but they are not the answer for every situation. There is not nearly enough insulation space available to keep out the summer sun, or to keep the heat inside in winter, unless you were to fill the vois completely with spray in place foam.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on February 23, 2012, 04:32:47 PM
Thanks again Don,

I agree with you about the insulation, I'll be using something bigger than 2x6's for the
rafters. Also, I meant 'Ridge board' and not ridge beam - they'll be no ridge beam.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Mike 870 on February 23, 2012, 04:54:54 PM
The ridge board height is:  (total rise) + (height of plum line from the birds mouth seat cut to the top of the rafter) - (depth of ceiling joist) - (thickness of the floor or temporary sheathing panles) - (depth of ridgeboard)

* your roof will have 2 pitches,  when you go to do the wall height of the side of the house that has the low pitch, it's like a shed dormer, you will have to back into the wall height, because the ridge height is already set.  Does this make sense? In essense, you set it up so that the wall height plus the other measurements comes out at the same ridge height that you already have.

**if you are not resting the ridge supports on a ceiling joist and temporary braceing then you don't have to account for that.


You've got to think this through before you start cutting, try both rafters before you cut the rest too, the low pitch section and the 12/12 section.

Hope this helps, if not, one of the PROs on here can probably sort it out for you!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on February 23, 2012, 07:06:59 PM
These are a couple of mine;
http://www.timbertoolbox.com/Calcs/ridgehgtclc.htm
http://www.timbertoolbox.com/Calcs/raftercalc.htm
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on February 24, 2012, 12:53:57 PM
Friday Morning - February 24th, 2012 Oklahoma

Thank you all for trying to help me with my roof, to understand how to do it and what I need to do.

I guess I'm pretty confused about it all myself and I'm having trouble trying to understand how to
do all the different cuts. This roof stuff seems like the most difficult stuff for me to understand so far.
I've been reading the framming book and trying to grasp how to do all the different rafter cuts like the
birds mouth, the overhang. and the angled rafter cut, and I'll have to reread it all again a few times.

To top it all off, I'm not sure if I can have my roof pitch change the way I want to because I think I see
now that I should have used taller 2x6's where the 6:12 pitch would be so that the higher walls would be
strong. To change my pitch to a shallower one so that I can have more loft head room was the main plan
but now I see that if I was to build a wall, let's say another 4 feet high, ontop of the already 10 foot wall,
it would be very week with nothing supporting it. I guess the gable end wall would support it at one end but
the other end wouldn't have nothing there for support. Does any one know if I can make a wall strong enough
up there?

I don't care about having a cathedral ceiling at this point so I would have collar ties throughout the whole build and they would act as my ceiling. And I don't mind at all about putting rafter ties/ceiling joists at every four foot where the lofts wouldn't be.

I may just forget about all the fancy stuff and simply do the full 12:12 pitch with no dormers but if I can grasp this stuff and it's not too expensive, I sure would like that pitch change to happen.

A frammer friend of mine is going to come out Saturday and I'm sure he'll help me to understand more about what I should and could do. I know one thing for sure, I'm going to do the roof myself and not hire anyone to do it. I figure that I've gone this far and was able to understand things enough to do what's been done so I'll be able to do the roof. It's just that it's getting frustrating at this point because there's a lot at stake with the roof and I want it done right (even though I'm doing it).

Right now I feel a little bit like this with the roof:  d*, but I'll over come it with help (I sure need all I can get) - thank you every one!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on February 24, 2012, 08:47:12 PM
QuoteTo top it all off, I'm not sure if I can have my roof pitch change the way I want to because I think I see
now that I should have used taller 2x6's where the 6:12 pitch would be so that the higher walls would be
strong. To change my pitch to a shallower one so that I can have more loft head room was the main plan
but now I see that if I was to build a wall, let's say another 4 feet high, ontop of the already 10 foot wall,
it would be very week with nothing supporting it. I guess the gable end wall would support it at one end but
the other end wouldn't have nothing there for support. Does any one know if I can make a wall strong enough
up there?

the section where you have the lower pitched full second floor should be platform framed... ~8' main floor walls with top plates, the second floor sits on that, the second floor gets subfloor and then the second floor ~8' walls are built. The shallow pitched roof sits atop the second floor walls. You can cut down the tall walls in the 2 story section, salvage and reapply the plates and go again. If you plan on the fly, count on blowing through time and wood. On the current job I gutted and redid the upper floor 3 times. You can either erase pencil on paper or wood and nails in the field. Job security, but it isn't cheap, fun or pretty. That's why I like being a carpenter, we get to burn mistakes  ;D

please draw the second floor plan, including the stairs when you have some time.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on February 24, 2012, 10:05:14 PM
I heartily second the thought about drawings. The only part of our cabin where things didn't go as well as they should have was where I left the drawings "till later". Later never came.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on February 25, 2012, 07:42:09 AM
Saturday Morning - February 25th, 2012 Oklahoma

Yes, I got the whole weekend to work on our build! I took the morning off of work
so I can meet a framer friend of mine and discuss things, I'm pretty excited about that.

Ya know, when I say 'our build', it's almost like I think it should be 'my build' but I
look back at my thread and see how you guys have helped me with the troubles that
I've had, the things I didn't understand because of this being my first build, I think I would
have made many more disastrous mistakes if I hadn't done what many of you have suggested. I'm
so appreciative of all your answers, comments, and suggestions. That is why sometimes I see
no problem in calling this 'our build' or maybe even 'the countryplan build'.

Anyway, Thank you Don_P and MountainDon for those last few pieces of advise. I'm beginning to
see some things a little clearer.

I first got the idea of making the higher loft walls that create the lower pitch roof by seeing
what Don Lundgren did with his 24 x 30 build. His countryplan thread
is here: http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=7649.0 (http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=7649.0)

Don Lundgren has the 10.5:12 pitch but goes to a 6:12 pitch on only one side at one end of
the long wall, basically a shed dormer. He made sure that his wall was only 8 feet high at that
one particular end. From what I see, all other walls and the gable end walls are 10 feet. So all I
would need to do is to tear down 2 sections of my 10 foot walls to the 8 foot height. Ya, I'll loose
a few 2x6's but I don't consider it a major error at this point. It's probably something that can
be done in 3 or 4 hours I'd imagine.

I will platform frame this end section as Don_P suggests but I don't want to put a full story up
there, I just want about 4 feet of more head room in the loft where I can also use the same
ridge board throughout the whole build. It would basically be the same method as Don Ludgren
used but on both sides.

Here is a 3D view of my second floor from my Chief Architect software:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/2ndfloor3d.JPG)

Here's the loft floor plan:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/2ndfloor.JPG)

Now I would like to show some pics of Don Ludgren's place because these pictures show just what I would like to do, the same as Don here did but on both sides. This first picture shows where he took the 10' wall down to the 8' wall:

(http://donlundgren.com/cms1/content/files/images/new_house/Stairs/StairsComplete4.jpg)

This next picture, an outside shot, shows how he framed it:
(http://donlundgren.com/cms1/content/files/images/new_house/TheRoof/RaftersInPlace12.jpg)

Here's another shot from the outside:
(http://donlundgren.com/cms1/content/files/images/new_house/TheRoof/MostlyDone2.jpg)

Here's a good shot that shows the sheathed cheek wall:
(http://donlundgren.com/cms1/content/files/images/new_house/TheRoof/MostlyDone3.jpg)

Here's an inside shot showing the 2 different roof pitches:
(http://donlundgren.com/cms1/content/files/images/new_house/TheRoof/MostlyDone6.jpg)

If you look to the right of this next picture, you can see a good inside view of the intersection
of the two pitches:
(http://donlundgren.com/cms1/content/files/images/new_house/TheRoof/MostlyDone9.jpg)

Here it is pretty well sheathed:
(http://donlundgren.com/cms1/content/files/images/new_house/TheLoft/GableFramed1.jpg)

And here's the end result:
(http://donlundgren.com/cms1/content/files/images/new_house/Siding/ViewFromSouthEastSide1.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MWAndrus on February 25, 2012, 09:19:49 AM
To me, that roof looks like it needs to be built with a ridge beam and columns, or it needs rafter and collar ties. The force from the roof is going to push the walls outwards. It would be worse in the second story because of the hinge point where the wall meets the second floor.

(https://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff455/andrusmw/MostlyDone6.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on February 25, 2012, 12:58:34 PM
Yup, that is correct. Unless there is a level ceiling in the lower third of roof height this would need to have a properly sized ridge beam on columns. I think you have trouble w/ the gable wall heights as well.

Is there a reason not to go to a lower pitch, say a 4/12, above and get more headroom? Things don't stop at 12/12 either, you can raise the ridge by making that section steeper if needed.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on February 25, 2012, 09:04:03 PM
Thanks Don_P and MWAndrus,

A framer came around today and we talked for a couple hours about my build and how I've been doing.
Some of the things he pointed out to me were:

1) My braces were not high enough, he said I should have them right to the top.

2) Don't use the saws-all to cut out the windows that are covered by sheathing, poke
the nails through from the inside, pop the line around them, and then use the circular
saw from the outside. The saws-all is messy and time consuming.

3) He told me to get a nail gun, period! (I've done the whole thing by hand so far)

4) For rafter sizes, he said around here in Oklahoma most use 2x8's at 16 o/c or 2x10's at 24

5) Most use 7/16 for sheathing (I did my first long wall with 5/8). When he saw that I used
the 5/8 thick stuff for the first long wall he said that it would cause my door jam to not be
positioned properly for the inside dry wall/trim.

6) I can use the 32 foot long 2x8 as the ridge board, just add a 2x4 under it.

7) It's good to have a gap under the ridge board where rafters are a little bit lower so that
the drywall can meet together up there.

8 ) Nail top plates where studs are under them because long nails sticking out under there can
cause trouble with drills, saws, and wires.

9) When he does stair stringers, he goes with 7 1/4" rise and 10" run...I think that's what he said.

10) In regards to my loft, he said I should buy rim-board and use i-joist hangers and then
nail and lag screw it to studs (at places where the i-joists don't go).

11) He called the side wall where my pitch change is going to be a half-gable, I've heard it
was called a cheek-wall.

12) I showed him some pics of the recent build examples I posted above where the pitch
went from 10.5:12 to 6:12. One of the pics above showed the sheathing an inside shot
of the side wall (half-gable/cheek) without studs, he mentioned that there should have
been studs there.

13) His opinion about me chopping my loft walls down to the 8 foot height and platform
it from there was that I could do that but that it would be strong enough if I build the
almost 5 foot wall on top of the already 10 foot wall also, either way. The gable end
would support one end, the cheek wall studs and the two pitch change studs against each
other, and sheathing along with the collar ties would support the other end.

14) He had an extendable level and he checked each one of my wall corners and they turned out
pretty good. I think the worst case was one was out 3/8".

He mentioned a lot of other things but I guess those were the headliners. The most exciting
thing was that he said he would come out with his crew of a few guys and put up my whole
roof in one day...with me helping so that I can be apart of it all (for a really good price too).

So what I have left to do is string line the walls straight (which I already did but I'll do it
again to be sure all is well), finish sheathing, finish all interior walls, put the i-joists in,
and then the loft sub-floor. I'll leave out the catwalk until the roof is on.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on February 26, 2012, 09:17:53 AM
Wow

Well, he's told you what you want to hear. I don't agree with him.
I'd like to walk you through what I see as the responsibilities here. As the general contractor and designer, you have hired labor. In the event of an undesired outcome this crew was working under your direction. In other words, you have not hired competent design you have hired man who swings hammer, the design and anything that transpires as a result of that design is still your responsibility.

On a job directed by an owner builder this is where I, as a man who swings hammer, would stop work, and have.

The correct next step is to bring in a structural engineer.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on February 26, 2012, 01:41:52 PM
Sunday Afternoon - February 26th, 2012 Oklahoma

Thanks for the response Don_P.

I am glad that the framer guy came over, he did tell me things that made sense and then again
he told me other things where I need to listen to other peoples suggestions also.

I believe the best thing for me to do at this point is to build it the way it was originally planned
by John, a 12:12 pitch roof all the way - like most have done here with the 20 x 30 plan. I would
have liked to have that fancy pitch change that would cause more head room but I didn't start
correctly for that type of build and it's best to stick with the original design.

I would like to say thank you once again to the Don's and John's of this site who keep us safe
if we'll listen to them. Thank you countryplans...I'm go'in back outside to put up more 4x8 sheets!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on February 26, 2012, 02:48:52 PM
What happened to the idea of those well engineered trusses we all saw a while back? Those would make a roof with unparalleled strength, as well as lots of room for insulation and good headroom.   
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on February 26, 2012, 04:36:50 PM
Ya Don, thanks for reminding me of those trusses. I know money shouldn't matter when
you talk about a good roof - that's money well spent.

I've got a ways to go before it's roof time and hopefully I'll be able to get up the $2,700 for those
trusses at that time. Here are their pics again:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/truss1.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/truss2.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: UK4X4 on February 26, 2012, 06:10:23 PM
Just to make you feel better- my roof trusses on a 26x36 were quoted at just under 5K usd....scissor for the main with 4 dormers

The dormers would need standard framing....so say 6K before being sheathed
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on February 26, 2012, 08:18:27 PM
Sunday Night - February 26th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Thanks UK4X4,

Yes, your trusses sure were a lot higher priced than the ones quoted for me.

Thank you again UK4X4. By the way, I looked for your build on here and found this one:
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=9588.0#top (http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=9588.0#top). Is that your main build?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: astidham on February 26, 2012, 08:31:11 PM
Al, since you have the build blueprint, you could build your own.
join them together with plywood  :).
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on February 26, 2012, 08:40:48 PM
Sunday Night - February 26th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Thanks astidham, it's great to hear from you again.

I worked most of the day putting more sheathing on. A neighbor came over with his nail gun, a huge
box of nails, and a long air hose. He wanted me to borrow it as long as I need it. He told me before
that he would lend it to me but I just kept on hammering.

He went on to demonstrate how to use it, I had never fired one before. Wow, I wish I would have gotten
one a long time ago. At first it was driving the nails way into the 7/16 sheathing so I turned down the
pressure on my air compressor and it seemed to do well after that, they went just barely more
than flush. I missed a stud one time and it went right through and bounced of the far wall - wow, their powerful.

As far as my roof goes, I don't see a problem with using the ridge board and rafter method
for my build, it is much less expensive than the trusses and I'll be sure to use collar and rafter
ties. It's not as strong as trusses I know but it's strong enough and I can put enough
insulation in it to be comfortable here in mid-Oklahoma. I love the idea of the site built
trusses that are included in the plans but the ridge board method would take a lot less time for
me to get done (especially if I have a framer come and do it while I help).
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on February 26, 2012, 10:00:15 PM
1. Don't overdrive nails. If they are overdriven basically they don't count; the connection strength is greatly reduced.

2. It's not the strength of the trusses vs strength of rafters that is the concern. Rafters and ridge boards can carry the same loads as a certified engineered truss when the rafter and ridge combination is properly sized and constructed as illustrated in the IRC. It's the area of each loft floor where you will not have rafter ties if you use rafters and ridge board that is the concern. The tops of the side walls in the loft areas will have horizontal outward forces that can be quite significant in a 20 ft wide building.

A rafter and ridge board roof places one half the roof load on each side wall; dead load (materials) plus live load (snow, rain, wind, ... Wind load on a 12/12 pitch can be as significant as a once in a hundred year snowfall).  With a 12/12 pitch half of the load on each side wall will be more or less straight down and the other half will be pushing sideways on the tops of the side walls. That could easily amount to many thousands of pounds of force trying to push the wall tops apart. We have tried to make this point seem relevant and important several times right from the inception of this project. I believe I am correct when I state that anyone who has built a plan such as this in a location that faithfully applies the IRC, would have had to use a ridge beam or certified engineered trusses when the project included loft kneewalls as you have. This is not just because some locations want to collect fees; it is because ridge beams and certified engineered trusses do not transfer horizontal loads to the side walls. Stud wall tops like the kneewalls are not designed to carry horizontal loads of the magnitude that a rafter and ridge board roof can generate. The taller the kneewall, the worse it gets.

Don_P's idea of cutting off the kneewall studs and placing the floor joists on the top of the resulting wall has advantages. The platformed framed walls that would be added would then have rafter ties on the tops of those new wall sections at the loft. Or at the very worst the rafter tie could be moved upwards slightly (no more than a third) to increase headroom. As long as the rafter tie would be located in the lower third of the rafter and ridge board triangle the rafter tie will effectively restrain any outward forces. Note that when rafter ties are moved upwards the rafters themselves may need to be sized upwards.

In closing, read the first part of my signature line.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: duncanshannon on February 26, 2012, 11:52:50 PM
Al-

I think you are headed in the right direction by simplfying your build wherever you can.   I'm in a similar boat as you... never done this stuff before.  I'm planning (some day) on building the 20x34 1 1/2 story or so... somewhat because it seems about as simple as you can get.

From working on my home, i've learned that keeping it simple is a really good thing in terms of keeping cost and time down.  Its amazing how it all starts to add up.

I'd go for the same roof pitch for the entire roof.

Sounds like you need to re-read the ridge board vs ridge beam stuff from the Don's too.  Or just go get some mfg. trusses and keep it simple!

way to go by the way.... keeping at it and making progress! excellent work! [cool]
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on February 27, 2012, 12:31:11 AM
This is not a huge deal to do right, that just isn't the right way to do it. The split pitch is quite possible as is the original design. The build process is a very short portion of the life of the house, get what you want. Look at the headroom on the stairs before you scratch the design, I think that decision has some ripples.

I don't think you are going to build a safe or compliant steep pitched roof section in ridgeboard and rafter ties or site built trusses.  With a ridgebeam or engineered trusses I think you can build a very strong roof.

Changing the walls is not a huge project. Smaller trusses over a second floor would be cheaper than the larger trusses over the loft, they can be scissors to give a bit more headroom and allow the sidewall to be a bit shorter.

The catwalk cannot join to just I joists, they are not rated for that type of point loading. The joists at each end of the catwalk need to be LVL(s). I would go ahead and install the catwalk to make moving around up there safer and easier while doing the roof.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: UK4X4 on February 27, 2012, 11:36:42 AM
"Thank you again UK4X4. By the way, I looked for your build on here and found this one:
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=9588.0#top. Is that your main build?"

sadly yes ---not a nail hammered in anger yet !

just updated it and will add the revised plans shortly, with some info on the helical piles etc

Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Alan Gage on February 27, 2012, 03:28:35 PM
RE: the increased cost of trusses:

Looking back on my build I can't think of one area where I regret spending too much time or money. I can find some areas where I wish I'd spent more though.

I still spend my dollars carefully and all those upgrades can and do add up in the end but this is your house and you're building it yourself. The farther along you get in the build the more pride you'll have in it. You're going to (hopefully) be there a long time, you don't want to be constantly looking back wishing you'd done something different.

Alan

Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: UK4X4 on February 27, 2012, 03:41:24 PM
Truses- my reasons

High snow load
Speed of install  - labor time
Engineered- no probs with the permit office
Engineered- no rooky errors causing a cave in !

yes there's a cost increase- but I only want to build once........plus if I have to pay an engineer to check my design by the time I've added that to the cost of materials - it would be a close race on the costs
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Bob S. on February 27, 2012, 04:22:11 PM
I have not started my build, but I have been planing it for several years. When I priced the # 2 2X12's and the material for the coller ties and the hardwaer and offset it with the price of trusses there was only about $400 deference. When I build I will use trusses.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on February 28, 2012, 12:50:30 AM
he told you to leave the rafters cut with a gap below the ridge board? doesn't that right there nullify any further info he gave you since everything I have heard is to have the gap at the top otherwise the rafters will split.


unless my math is wrong, couldn't he use three 2X12's nailed together as a ridge beam with a support in the center? run tripple 2x6's up the full length of the gable end walls and one 6x6 up from the floor in the middle of the house (probably right where the roof pitch changes anyways) and run the tripple 2x12's across the top of them and cut common rafters to sit on them?  You can go back later and wrap them with a thinner cedar or something if you want a "pretty" beam at a fraction of the cost. It's what I plan on doing. I don't have my figures in front of me as I'm on the road sitting in my truck but mine is 32" and if I remember corretcly the load calculator came up about a foot short for tripple's being okay for my application. should be just right for him then.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: metolent on February 28, 2012, 12:40:37 PM
That's close to what I did CjAl - well, except that instead of building up the ridge beam and posts, I used a 6x16 glulam for the ridge beam, and solid 6x6s for the 3 posts holding them up - picture below.  He would have to probably change the wall structures to get the posts in, but that's not a big deal.  The thing I would be more concerned about would be transferring those point loads to the ground given the steel post foundation - I'd have to do some math ...

Seems like the easiest thing to do would be to go to engineered trusses given where things are now.  For me, I wanted the open ceilings, so a ridge beam made the most sense, but then I designed the foundation and walls for it as well from the get-go.  If you really want that upper dormer, I wouldn't give up on it now because 6 months after you're build is complete you may regret not spending the time/money to get it the way you really want it.... 


(https://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/z362/metolent/ski%20cabin/28a26e68.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ellbaker on February 28, 2012, 09:14:10 PM
So what should you do if you wished this thread was active a year ago?  My framer added a shed dormer after I asked for one during the build. My dormer is a 4:12 pitch.  I do not have rafter ties in the dormer section.  Framer said it was no problem, he does it all of the time.  Any way to fix this now?  My ceiling is finished now.

(https://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z392/Ericbaker0467/New%20Cabin/New%20Cabin%20Progress/IMG_20110512_130806.jpg)



Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on February 29, 2012, 05:45:56 AM
Dangling rafter plumb cuts as well.
Tie it with a level ceiling would be one way.
At this point I would monitor it. Pull a tight string from corner to corner along the top plate of the dormer wall. Is the wall straight or bowing? Whatever is there is likely the same at the ridge. This is now reaction, you've realized too late, hoping to have Al's done pro-actively.
If there is a wall under the ridge it will act the same as having a beam under it... Al has this but look down, the floor was likely not designed for the load at midspan. I have this going on in my house, no ties, ridgeboard construction, roof sagging and wall bowing. There is a cross wall and an in line wall under the ridge that took the load as the roof sagged, it held,  but the floor now has a permanent sag from supporting the roof, the wall leans out, the ridge has a sag. If that inadvertant wall had not been there I'm pretty sure my roof would have snapped thru in a freak snow. We had my naive design load path and mother nature showed the actual load path. My floor is dimensional 2x10's at 14', this is I joists at 20', my ridge is 2x12 with no span between support greater then 12', this is 2x8. I am well beyond code but so far within the ultimate strength of the material. I've debated popping the top and trying again several times, that's working behind the ball, reaction. I've simply had about a hundred attempts at getting it right since. Hopefully we can save Al a few practice tries.

Just playing with it, This could be trusses, the main pitch is 12/12 the upper is 4/12 on 7'6" sidewalls. I "fully dressed" the dormer end just to show some other options.
(https://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x109/windyhilll/2030shed.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on February 29, 2012, 12:50:24 PM
Wednesday Afternoon - February 29th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Thank you everyone, there is so much information going on in these last few posts - I am totally greatful to ya all.

I've definitely decided to NOT go with a ridge board. I like the idea of a ridge BEAM and I think they look real nice but I'm trying to get trusses at this point. I'm anciously awaiting a quote from a different truss builder locally and I'll share that with you all as soon as possible. I've been on the look out for the truss quote all thru the day today. I like the other trusses that were quoted for me in the past but I would like to see this 'second opinion/method'.

Don_P, thank you for taking the time to do that drawing. I understand a lot more about roofs in these last few days with all this great information.

Now about my floor taking a load at mid-span for a ridge beam column (if I went that direction). I DO have a girder that's held up by 5 piers running down the exact middle 30 foot length of my build. I dug really deep holes there and the steel is braced really good, the 2x12's are also held up by the angle-iron. BUT, I'm really leaning toward trusses at this point in order to keep with the change pitch decision.

I know I keep changing my mind about what type of roof to do but I'm learning and I'm glad I can change my mind and that it's not done the wrong way.

I had the truss guy quote for 12:12 pitch for 15' and the other 15' will be 6:12. I'm awaiting the quote as I type right now and hopefully within a couple hours I will share it with you all. Again, I appreciate countryplans!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on February 29, 2012, 10:09:12 PM
Wednesday Night - February 29th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

I got another truss quote today. I told the truss builder that at the half way point (the
15 foot point), that's where one pitch will change to another. I can give you all the facts
in text right here but I'll post a picture and the two jpg files that the truss company
emailed me. Just to let you know, I emailed the truss builder my plan information and
also a 3D rendering of the 2nd floor so he knows what kind of house these trusses are for.

One question I have about these two different pitched trusses coming together is, will one
truss be nailed up against another truss at the point of change or would there be some kind
of blocking between them?

Now, the biggest thing about these trusses is that they are all 2x4's - that sounds weak...or is
it just me? They are rated for my build and the truss builder said that they'll be stamped by an
engineer. Please let me know what you think.

Here:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/trussquotepic.JPG)

And here are the actual jpg files of the quote, one is the 12:12 pitch and the other
is the 6:12 pitch:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/truss12-12.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/truss6-12.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on February 29, 2012, 10:45:42 PM
You have two solutions to the same problem. These are just different from the first. These are more typical of what I envision when I see the word truss. These are commonly made with 2x4 lumber. It's a special grade you will not find in HD or Lowe's. It is not the size of the lumber that matters, it is the engineering that goes into the creation of the individual components that make up the whole. The different configuration compared to the first truss from a while back means the interior will look different.

Less lumber and of smaller sizes results in a lower cost.

Depending on how much insulation you would like out where the truss rests on the wall, you may want to ask this second company what it would cost to have raised heel trusses made. There are some extra pieces and that lifts the truss up off the wall plates to give more attic insulation space. IMO, it is worth the extra cost. Whatever insulation amount you figure is good today is probably not what you will wish you had ten years from now. That's my opinion, as heating and especially cooling costs will do nothing but continue to increase.

I did not take the time to see what the actual headroom would be under the truss centerline over any loft floors.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on March 01, 2012, 07:37:04 AM
The first "truss" was actually a "frame" where this is an assemblage of stable triangles, a truss. The "legs" are tied better, not best, better. A scissor is tied but it deflects and produces thrust, much less, but it is there.

The tech used higher loading than the previous guy I think. In the 12/12 he has 1/2" horizontal deflection at 158 lbs of thrust at each truss under full load. Think about that as you tie the trusses to the kneewalls and as you connect the floor joists to the studs. Under full load there is a college linebacker pushing out on each truss foot as hard as he can without losing traction. There is 133 lbs of uplift. I'd ask about using a framing angle flat on the top of the top plate and into the truss.

Actually regular #2 southern pine 2x4's straight from Lowe's is adequate for the <5' spans of the chords, stud grade is adequate for the webs. If you can sit down with the tech try higher grade for the top and bottom chords and then plug in 2x6. Every smidgen you can drop the interior pitch will improve those numbers. I agree with MD, include raised heels in this if possible. Watch the horizontal deflection, reaction and cost while doing this.

Take field measurements of the 2nd floor deck to kneewall height. Using that as your baseline draw all of this to scale and make sure it works inside and out. I would think about another 12/12 truss to nail against the pitch transition framed gable wall. The other gables will be framed, I would drop them 3-1/2" and pass lookouts over them to support the gable overhangs.

You are not out of options, take your time, ask questions.



Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: UK4X4 on March 01, 2012, 11:23:01 AM

heheheheee call that a truss ! this is a truss.............I can see where my higher costs are comming from ;D
these are the gable ends

(https://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g165/POshaughnessy/Colorado/gabletruss.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: duncanshannon on March 01, 2012, 11:26:03 AM
Holy cow... whats the deal with those?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on March 01, 2012, 12:53:09 PM
White stuff called snow most likely. And lots of it. Plus it's a gable end and must handle more wind load across the end, I think. ??? Wider span too most likely.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on March 01, 2012, 01:02:32 PM
Wow UK4X4, those are some massive trusses.

I called the truss builder and told him that I would like the raised 8 to 10" heel like MD says. I also told him that
I would like it stronger so he said he would change the top and bottom chords to 2x6's. I'll have the quote before
the day's out and I'll put it here as usual. It will be interesting to see how the math changes.

All of the online trusses tended to be flat roofed when I googled raised heel trusses.

Thank you again Don_P and MD...al
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: UK4X4 on March 01, 2012, 01:10:14 PM
Yep lots of snow 90lbs added support required for the outriggers
The inner trusses just have the basic diagonalsand linking verticals
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on March 01, 2012, 01:12:17 PM
Link to...  Document with simple illustration of conventional vs raised heel truss detail (http://arkansasenergy.org/business_development/energy/files/Clearinghouse/ACF789F.pdf)

I wish they had been used back in '85 when our present house was built. 
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Alan Gage on March 01, 2012, 02:30:50 PM
Just something to throw out there regarding heels and local lingo.

I told my building supplier I wanted raised heels. He said, "oh, an energy heel."

I, not know anything said, "ummm, yeah."

Anyway after we talked a while we both became more confused about what the other was saying. Sketches ensued and we figured out the discrepancy. Around here an energy heel means the bottom cord isn't cut at a taper where it joins the top cord, gaining you a couple inches. That's what they were familiar with locally. I was thinking of a raised heel, like Don linked to above. Must not be too common around here as they thought it an odd request but were happy to oblige. I'm sure the truss company does it all the time though.

I ended up going with an 8" raised heel, which in addition to my 2x6 top and bottom cords gives me 19 inches. I think it was an extra $500-800, but I could be wrong, I don't remember for sure. This was for a hip roof so lots more pieces that needed to be "raised" in comparison to a gable.

Alan
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on March 02, 2012, 10:41:34 AM
Friday Morning - March 2nd, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

The truss man must have gotten busy yesterday, I'm awaiting my 2nd truss quote today.

Here's some shots of raised-heel trusses that I've found and put together:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/truss-raisedheel.JPG)

More progress:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/2-29-2012Sheath1.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/2-29-2012Sheath4.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on March 02, 2012, 10:57:30 PM
Friday Night - March 2nd, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Ok, I got my new 'revised' truss quote. I spent a little while talking to the truss builder before
he did the quote. I told him about the suggestions I got - about adding another 12:12 truss to
nail against my pitch transition framed gable wall and dropping the gable end trusses 3 1/2" so
I can pass lookouts over them to support the gable overhangs. I also told him I wanted raised
heels.

I mentioned that I wanted to lessen the 158 lb thrust against the walls caused by the 12:12
trusses and for him to see what 2x6's would do. He tried the 2x6's and said that it actually
caused more thrust so we stayed with the 2x4's. He also had me change from 24" o/c to
16" o/c and said that it would lessen the thrust against the wall going from 24 to 16.

The weirdest thing that I noticed is that in my new quote, the dropped 12:12 gable has
no overhangs. I emailed the truss builder and asked him why.

I took a couple of screen shots of the 6:12 truss, the old one and the newer revised 'raised heel' one.
On a side note, I thought the raised heel would happen by way of a vertical member but he used
the members under the top chords.

Here's something I put together comparing the old and newer quote:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/heeldifference.JPG)

Now, here is my actual quote in 5 pics. Please let me know what you think
and I appreciate all of the help:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/trusspage1.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/trusspage2.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/trusspage3.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/trusspage4.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/trusspage5.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on March 03, 2012, 12:11:41 AM
I'm suprised the deeper members made things worse ???

I had really intended that the gables would be stick framed, simply dropped 3-1/2". The gable trusses introduce another hinge in the wall. It is laterally supported by the ceiling, do follow all the footnotes and google the BCSI pamphlet to study that bracing. Do put bracing on the top side of the bottom chords to hold things until the ceilings are installed, it'll be tender until they are in.

We are catching wind tonight that reminds me of why it is good to build stout.

That is a typical raised heel for me.

Delete truss 20 3-1212g. I was trying to be lazy and get the wall backing by using an extra truss... the price of that will be too dear.

If these are on 16" centers then it should be easy to look at the wall studs and confirm their quantities. It would be good if the first bay between a dropped gable and the first regular truss is ~24".

Overhangs are field framed by you, they are not included. You will need material for fly (or barge, or verge) rafters (those are different names for the gable end outboard overhang rafters). You'll also need 2x4 lookouts that pass perpendicular, from the last common truss, over the dropped gable truss and out to support the fly (this is why it is good to have a wide gap in the first truss bay, it improves the backspan on the cantilevered lookout. The first common truss will land over the window stud in the front room, skip the little bay). You'll need 2x subfascia along the lower edge, there will also be a ledger along the wall and soffit framing underneath.  There is alot of detail framing done in the field.

On the floor framing, in the front room, fill the I joist web zone between the joist and stud and nail that all together well. This is the restraint of that last bit of thrust. Don't forget to lower the walls before sitting the joists on top of them for the 2 story half of the house. Save the cutoff stud ends, that is good blocking, soffit nailer, etc. There needs to be an LVL "joist" supporting each end of the catwalk.

Edit: Ahh I now see what you mean by
QuoteThe weirdest thing that I noticed is that in my new quote, the dropped 12:12 gable has
no overhangs.
When you lower the top chord of a common truss the dimension of a 2x4... the overhang disappears :o
But the lookout framing will replace it  ;)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: astidham on March 03, 2012, 12:21:12 AM
Al,
you should get a Quote from Pryor truss, at least to gt your more local truss company to match...
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: astidham on March 03, 2012, 12:32:55 AM
also I meant to mention, I bought my gable end trusses, and would stick frame my own like Don_p said, if I had it to do all over again.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: new land owner on March 03, 2012, 04:20:10 AM
Al

     I went with the xtra truss and nailed to the wall for the tranistion.  When your project is 5 hrs away from home speed is important.

(https://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll257/loonlakebound/DSC1380.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MushCreek on March 03, 2012, 07:25:19 AM
I just had the 'raised/energy heel' truss conversation with my contractor. At this point, we are thinking of going ICF all the way to the eaves, and he said that you don't need raised heels, because the extra wall thickness of the ICF gains enough height. Well, if the wall is 12" thick, and the trusses are 5:12 pitch, you gain 5". Coupled with the 3-1/2" bottom chord, that =not enough. He thought 8-9" of blown-in was more than enough in the SC climate. In that case- why would I consider ICF? Do these guys think about what they say?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on March 03, 2012, 07:35:06 AM
Nah, you just have to nurse us around until it's our idea, and then let the idea be ours, diplomacy in action... that door swings both ways before the project is through, don't worry  :).

Excellent pic NLO. Notice that an extra common truss has been nailed to the sheathed transition wall. It could be just a 2x4 nailed along that wall to support the roof sheathing and another level of 2x4's along the wall to support the ceiling plane. Slapping another regular truss against the wall is fast and easy, but is more expensive... judgement call.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on March 03, 2012, 08:37:43 AM
Al I realize that you are overwelmed at this point but have you ever considered an "attic truss".  It would render you more usable space.  I put these on an addition at the house.  The truss manufacturer gave me an option of 12' or 15' room with either 5' or 3' knee wall with 10/12 pitch. Yes they are a little more expensive but in the long run the benefit outweighs the cost.  That reminds me I still have this room to finish.  12' X 44' over a 26'X44' garage. d* Just thought I would give you some idea of other options.

(https://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd161/redoverfarm/scenes/country%20plans/000_0002-1.jpg)

(https://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd161/redoverfarm/scenes/country%20plans/000_0005-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on March 03, 2012, 09:42:39 AM
I was going to remind Al to lower the gable walls and pass the floor over them, then start the upper rake walls from the floor. If you use attic trusses this would complete the job by lowering all the walls to 8'. If you look at Redover's trusses the rafters "launch" from above the walls. If the bottom chord extends on out to the fascia the rafters can launch from there... this would effectively raise the roof elevation back up to where it was before removing the kneewall. With TJI's stocked up there I think Al has already passed that intersection.

This is a 2x12 stick framed roof with 2x6 lookouts passing over a stick framed 5-1/2" dropped gable wall. My parts are wider but the framing is the same as what I've been envisioning;
(https://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x109/windyhilll/beyer216003.jpg)

It is nice to block between rafters or trusses. It strengthens the assembly and helps resist lateral loads. If this is a vented roof notice that the blocks are dropped about 1-1/2" below the rafter top edge. This allows ventilation intake air to pass up over the insulation rather than trying to blow through it at the lower edge. If it's a sprayfoam unventilated roof the blocking runs up tight and forms the backstop for the foam so you don't fill the soffit. You can see the top plane of the overhang framing at the far end;
(https://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x109/windyhilll/beyer216007.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on March 03, 2012, 06:29:48 PM
Saturday Afternoon - March 3rd, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Thank you all for so much information, it can get pretty overwhelming for a guy who 8 months ago
didn't know the difference between a joist and a rafter. I'm not saying that I'm so overwhelmed
that I don't think I could ever build my roof with different pitches but I have changed my mind once
again. I'm going to go with the original plans that John has created and stick with the 10' walls and
the 12:12 pitch roof using the site built trusses.

I do love the way a loft looks when you add the shed dormer / pitch change look but due to time
constraints, money, and a dried-in time limit put on me by my home owners association - I think
that it's best to make things simpler and faster.

So my plan now is to complete the sheathing on the outside all the way around and then to
finish the rest of the interior walls which is very minimal. After that, I plan to sister stud the
I-joists into the wall cavities and insert backing in the i joist making sure that their connection
to the walls is very good. Then will come the loft sub-floor, I plan to use 5/8 OSB there.

Me and my wife have apparently decided to not use a catwalk between the main loft and the
nook loft. That nook loft is going to be 8'8" out from the gable wall and it'll use 5 i-joist 24"
between each. The main loft will be done the same way, same height, but at 16" oc.

When the loft floor is complete, I will then begin to build the site built trusses according to
plan. I wish I knew what the horizontal thrust was for those site built trusses just like I knew
about the thrust of those truss quotes that I've gotten. I think Don_P mentioned that there
was thrust with the site built 12:12 trusses but I've seen a lot of builds here that use them
with no problems.

Many people have given me much information for me to do the pitch change and all the
work that it contains and I am very grateful and have learned a lot. Some of the things
that Don_P says to me are hard for me to understand at first read but I take it slow, think
about what's been said, google the subjects, ask a few more questions, read it 10 or 20
more times and before ya know it - I 'almost' totally understand it. To me, it's like talking
to a rocket scientist when I'm still trying to figure out how to fold a paper airplane! Not
eally but you know what I mean.

So, my wife just told me to stop talking here and get out there and put up another sheet
before it gets dark...she's right. Oh, by the way, my wife understands just about as much
as me and more sometimes. She reads all of this stuff and helps me out a lot to. I am so
thankful for her help.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on March 03, 2012, 06:50:04 PM
Quote from: ajbremer on March 03, 2012, 06:29:48 PM
...using the site built trusses.


Keep in mind they are not real trusses and if the county or local authority having jurisdiction was enforcing things according to the IRC, they would not be permitted without an engineers pedigree. John's plans mentions this eventuality/possibility. Not saying they are bad; just saying there are better choices that are tougher and provide lower horizontal side loads on the wall tops....

Quote...wish I knew what the horizontal thrust was for those site built trusses...   

My guess is that is going to be greater than the number for the first truss design you got; more properly called a frame according to Don_P, if you recall. I guess that because the materials are lighter than those in the first quote you received. Just a guess.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on March 03, 2012, 09:26:44 PM
I can assure you, NASA hasn't called  :D I'm glad you read elsewhere to check on us and to fill out your understanding. Like any profession there is alot of jargon unique to it.

The "correct" way to proceed, if that matters, would be to use trusses similar to the first quote, or a ridgebeam (this leaves the most options, eliminates thrust) or site built trusses with an engineer's blessing.

The joists need to be securely attached to each stud using web fillers in the connection. This is part of the thrust restraint for the roof. I believe this dictates that the joists are on 16" centers.

A 10' section of missing floor tie, 10' tall walls with unknown site built trusses on top... that doesn't make me real comfortable.

This is the original truss spec sheet. Look at the reactions section, there is 101 lbs max horizontal, the max horizontal deflection is ~5/8" (.62"). On the 10' tall unfloored section the walls have nothing to resist that thrust, the wall will bow out 5/8" under full load.
(http://www.mrmachinist.net/20x30/pics/truss1.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on March 04, 2012, 05:35:57 AM
Sunday Morning - March 4th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Well, I got up early thinking about thrust so I studied the subject once again for about 2 hours. I found
an older post where Don_P had the thrust formula so I plugged in some of my own numbers and played
around with them a bit.

As other people have said here before, the Nash cabin was my main inspiration for deciding to get the
20 x 30 with 1 1/2 loft plans. The loft up there looking down on the great-room below is very spacious
and gives it a country look to me that can't be beat. If I use trusses then some of that height will
disappear. I think the best way to go is with a ridge beam supported at both gable ends and one
place near the middle.

At first I wanted to go with those site-built trusses in the plans but I want to totally get away from
the wall thrust situation and the ridge beam method looks like it does that job better than anything
else. I would think that at a 12:12 pitch, with rafters sitting on the beam, the walls will actually be
taking some inward thrust from the weight of the roof pushing down on the wall at a 45 degree
angle. But I perceive that to not be a problem because of the loft joist and the couple of rafter
ties that I'll use across the building in the non-loft area.

Now I just have to decide what to use for a beam. I read somewhere here where a guy had a
30' beam and it weighed 800 lbs!? Aren't there any beams much lighter than that that will do
the job?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on March 04, 2012, 08:01:39 AM
Where is the support post location? Follow that in a straight path from a pier below, a direct load path from ground to ridge. This will give us the span lengths to figure from. From there we can size the ridgebeam and see what it is. After something weighs over about 200 lbs it really doesn't matter if it weighs 1,000, you're going to have to outsmart an inanimate object that has gravity issues  :D. If the ridge does not move there is no thrust, in or out. If the ridge drops there is outward thrust. If the ridge rises there is inward thrust. If the ridge rises... shoot down the UFO to break the tractor beam.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Bob S. on March 04, 2012, 08:03:08 AM
Is it possible to build a beam up? Would it be feasible to build it up in place? Maybe you could buy another long board like the one you alredy bought. Don might be able to give you some insight.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on March 04, 2012, 09:15:03 AM
It will probably be at least 2 members thick, it can break over the support post if we have to. Let's get the span lengths first and see what we are working with.

How are you accessing both lofts with no catwalk?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on March 04, 2012, 05:20:59 PM
Sunday Afternoon - March 4th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Thanks again Don_P and thanks for the comment Bob S.,

I plan to support the beam in the exact middle width (10 feet) of my build at both gable ends
and not only there but also with a post/column/tree at the 15 feet half way mark.

So the beam will be supported at the ends and in the middle at 15'. So therefore the beam will
have two 15 foot spans.

A question about the gable end support posts: Can I simply sister 2x6 studs to one another, maybe
even have like 3 or 4 2x6's together in the wall cavity holding up the beam? Or, would just doubled
2x6's work?

I already have a 32' long 2x8, I could purchase a second one and then cut them to the 30' length.
I could lift them into position one at a time and then glue and nail them together up there. I
could also sandwich OSB in the middle of them and glue them all.

Would that be good enough to support the 10lbs per square foot of roof? I haven't found a chart showing
the load for site made beams. Maybe it's because site made beams are not accepted as code?

Here's me lifting the 32' long 2x8 (that I WAS going to use for a ridge board). This pic is
also a couple of pages back:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/2-22-2012ridgeboard1.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/3-04-2012ridgesupport1.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/3-04-2012ridgesupport2.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/3-04-2012ridgesupport3.JPG)

Here is the house back to the 12:12 full length pitch. You can see that I have my
loft windows divided so that the ridge beam support post can pass through. Here's
the East gable:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/eastgableout.JPG)

Here's the west gable end;

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/westgableout.JPG)

Now here's the house without its roof. You can see the catwalk is offset enough to one
side so that a post can go in the exact middle of the house to split the beam length
difference and the catwalk can also be braced to the side of it to help with the catwalk
support (post is not in picture). By the way, there is plenty of head room walking down
the catwalk in the middle, about 6'4". Please let me know if I'm on the right track:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/roofoff.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on March 04, 2012, 09:06:26 PM
QuoteWould that be good enough to support the 10lbs per square foot of roof?

I'll defer to whatever Don_P has to say but with a 12/12 pitch roof you have more materials, rafters, sheathing, roofing, than with a lower pitched roof, so I believe the dead load number might be more like 15 psf. ???  Or use 10 psf but use the real area of the sloped roof which is about 1.414 times the area of the floor (with 12/12)   not sure on that.....

Plus there's the LL (live load; rain, snow, rain, a future hired roofer at 250 lbs....) That's got to be at least 10 psf.  The truss mfg. you got quotes from all used 20 psf IIRC, which is a good idea, good safety factor. Who knows what tricks and surprises our weather will throw at us these years?

I'm sure Don_P will have some suggestions for the components needed to safely use a ridge beam.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on March 04, 2012, 09:16:17 PM
Thanks MountainDon,

That's something that I forgot to think about - more surface area of the 12:12 roof. Have a nice night
Don.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on March 04, 2012, 09:35:48 PM
???   curious, I tried some numbers...
I don't recall if the species/grade was given for that long 2x8, so I used #2 SYP and 35 psf roof loading, using actual 20x30 measurements, a 15 foot long ridge beam section, I came up with needing a three layer 2x12 to Pass on Fiberstress in Bending, Deflection and Horizontal shear. Two layer failed on Deflection and Fiberstress in bending.

Values were pulled from the AWC rafter/joist info for 2x materials.  Wrong/Right/Okay thing to do? 

??? So am I close?  Or way off?  If I'm way off in the direction of spec'ing too big a beam, I am sorry to have scared you Al.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on March 04, 2012, 10:05:36 PM
And then I got to thinking about the center column for the ridge beam.... How is it going to be supported so it acts like a nice strong unbending, non deflecting, column and not like a piece of spaghetti?   ???
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on March 04, 2012, 10:18:34 PM
MD types with more than 2 fingers :) thi is what I was working on;

Judging by you having it under one arm I assumed #2 SPF. I tried 2x8's and was still failing by about 250% at 4 ply. Ripped down it would make a nice 1 piece subfascia on one side.

4 ply 2x12's in #2 SYP or 3 ply in #1 SYP would work, but a double 30' long 11-1/4" LVL works by my math and would be my choice. Do not break it over the post, full 30' or the deflection gets bad. That configuration has reactions (the post loads) of about 2,000 lbs at each end and about 3 tons in the center. The supplier can check it. At 5.2 lbs/ft x 30'= 156 lbs... I can stick one end up in pocket and carry the other end of that up a ladder.

I like the tree column. I assume it's forming the inside corner of the stair/loft handrail and is directly over a pier below. Beef up the bearing under these point loads, block it solid under there. Think about that pier and footing... good enough?

The gable ends need some thought. Typically I'll bear on a pair of built up 2x6's with 1/2" ply sandwiched to give 3-1/2" thickness, then run a 2x6 full height up each side to make a 4 ply built up "yoked" column. I'm typically running this from the floor up. There is a problem with the wall right there.

It looks like the west end of the catwalk can bear on a wall, the east end needs to bear on an lvl beam. Any reason not to just extend the catwalk/loft over the kitchen to the sidewall... just a thought?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on March 04, 2012, 10:29:31 PM
MD, I was heading here for the euler buckling/ spagetti column problem;
http://www.timbertoolbox.com/Calcs/Simple_column.htm
The center column should be connected to the catwalk floor to laterally brace it at that level, so its' effective height will be from 2nd floor to ridge.

You can back out the example inputs in the calc and plug in your own inputs. I selected #2 SYP 6x6 for the center post and checked.

To confirm your roof dead load line of thought I plugged 10 psf dead load and 12/12 pitch into the I level program and it spat out an adjusted dead load of 14.1 lbs... 1.414. So yes live load is taken as the horizontal projection, dead load is the surface area, the actual weight of the materials... or use 15 psf on steep roofs.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on March 05, 2012, 10:36:15 AM
hurry up so you can sell me that camper.  ;D
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on March 05, 2012, 10:44:36 AM
Monday Morning - March 5th, 2012

I just ordered 2 12" x 30 foot long each (11 7/8) LVL's. He said there about 1 7/8 thick. They were $133.00 a piece. The lumber guy
said that it'll be well overboard to hold the weight of the roof.

Oh, ya - thanks for the comment CjAl, I just might do that...not sure.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: rick91351 on March 05, 2012, 11:03:24 AM
Quote from: ajbremer on March 05, 2012, 10:44:36 AM
Monday Morning - March 5th, 2012

The lumber guy said that it'll be well overboard to hold the weight of the roof.


I agree under normal conditions.  But never build for the normal. 
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on March 05, 2012, 12:42:34 PM
I agree rick91351,

Too many people build to 'normal' conditions and normal seems to only get worse with time. I hear of many people
who build 'the way it's always been done around here'. Well, weather changes for the worst, science and technology get better, we
also hopefully get smarter with computers and such and therefore the building process gets better and the end result is a stronger
home...if we listen to people like the smart guys here on this forum.

A little ridge board with 2x6 rafters and no lower ties seems massively common around here but yet it keeps being done. Those
homes seem like their still standing good with no complaints but I feel better when I don't 'build to the normal' but go ... 'to infinity
and beyond!' like many here suggest. Thank you all.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: suburbancowboy on March 05, 2012, 02:58:52 PM
Your design for the upstairs is so much like mine.   [cool] Only difference is I will take the wall clear against the stairs.  I will need a bigger bed room upstairs, I plan on lots of guest and as the kids get families they will need the room.  The room on the upper level will be the kids play/family room and over flow bed room.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on March 05, 2012, 10:12:41 PM
The smart guys we're supposed to be listening to are engineers  [slap]  :)
A note of caution on "infinity" here, these are some very light design loads. Don't copy, size the parts according to the conditions where the house will be built.

I suggest 2x12 rafters on 24" centers. The plumb cut on the top of that rafter will be almost 16", the ridge is about 12" tall. I would set the ridge so that its' bottom edge is flush with the bottom edge of the rafter. I would attach 2 layers of 2x4 flat on top of the ridge to provide supporting fill for the rafter upper edges. This will leave about an inch of airspace over the top of the ridge for airflow. I typically nail each rafter up with at least 5 toenails and then come back with 9" framing angles nailed to the ridge and the rafter, 1 per rafter.

I would build the ridge support post as 4 plies of 2x6 with a 1/2" osb fill layer in the center. The outer 2 plies extend up 14-3/4" above the center plies to form a yoke that the ridge will drop into and be well nailed to.

The gable end walls should really be framed under the floor. This would entail cutting them down. I'm pretty comfortable if there were either a web filled I joist or a solid sawn floor joist securely fastened to each stud of the tall wall. The floor plywood then nails to this well attached ledger joist and the floor diapragm is attached to the wall. A few twisted hurricane ties from studs to floor wouldn't hurt. At this point you can slice out a section of the top plate for the ridge support post to drop though down to the window header, which is stout enough. The left side of that window framing is floating, pull those cripples tight and nail it all together well. We fret over the members but it is typically the connections that fail, nails are cheap, go back over this area and make sure everything is well nailed off. When the post is in place lock it in and support it with blocking in the wall, attach the sheathing to it well. Where the post passes thru the cutout in the plate use a 5" framing angle to connect the plate to the post on the underside. I would find nice strong single pieces to make a third top plate running from post to roof in each direction. Then I would install a framing angle from that top plate to the post on each side. I'm pretty sure that locks the hinge in the wall and saves alot of work. Everywhere a balloon stud passes thru the floor needs to be blocked to block that fire path from below.

The west post should begin on the first floor bottom plate and run up to the ridge, attaching to everything on the way just like before. The joints in the plies should be offset as much as possible to weave the post together into a strong unit, and then block it into the wall.

this ridge can support dormer rafters with no thrust, just noting that signpost before we pass it the last time
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on March 06, 2012, 06:58:30 AM
Tuesday Morning - March 6th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Thanks suburbancowboy and Don_P,

Taking the edge of my catwalk all the way to the wall is a good idea, I just may do that. Planning for the grand kids is an excellent idea. Doing that would delete the catwalk and leave one big 'hole' to look down below.

Me and one guy were talking about how I have a couple of 'holes' looking down in my loft using a catwalk. He said, "What ever ya do, don't have holes in the second floor, it'll get way to hot up there when you heat the downstairs and you'll have to open windows every time." I guess that's something to think about.

Don_P, thank you for all the information once again. You have made things clearer for me. Was it right for me to order my ridge BEAMS 30 foot long? Now I'm wondering if I should have ordered them to be around 32 or 34 feet for barge purposes or should I stick with the 30 feet? I'll call them up early this morning and change my order if need be.

One thing Don_P mentioned at the end of his post was: "This ridge can support dormer rafters with no thrust, just noting that signpost before we pass it the last time." I forgot all about that Don. I guess I could go back to the idea of knocking down my 10 foot walls to the 8' height, platform the 8' walls on top of the loft joists and sub-floor, and go back to the pitch change idea - seeing that they'll be no thrust because of the ridge beam.

Is there anyway that I could keep the 10' walls and build a 5' wall on top of them for that loft section? Support could come from the gable end and studs between the pitch change rafters and their sheathing?

I think I've figured this correctly, since I'm going 24" o/c for the rafters (and using the pitch change idea), I'll need 16 2x12's 18' long and 16 of them 16' long for my rafter order. I don't think 16 footers will be enough at the 12:12 pitch but it should be enough for the 6:12 pitch idea over the loft. Would I have to add another 4 rafters for each gable end barge?

As far as figuring out how high to place my ridge beam above the top plate of the wall, wouldn't it be 10 feet because that would be 45 degrees? Or, do I take it a little higher to account for rafter plumb height above the birds mouth? Oh ya, how long should my birds mouth seat cut be for the 12:12's and for the 6:12's? I've read where it shouldn't be more than 1/3 of the rafter depth?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on March 06, 2012, 08:58:45 AM
since the 45%cut on a 2x12 is 16" you would want the bottom of your ridge beam 8' 8" (16" less then 10') plus the height of your first floor walls.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on March 06, 2012, 09:51:07 PM
The LVL's are the right length, I let the lookouts carry the fly. You can extend the double 2x4 out as a spacer to nail to.

I'm not comfortable bearing the dormer roof on a wall like that. If you want to do it I'd bite the bullet, it'll take a day.


Assuming the framing is 20' wide and then you added 1/2" sheathing making the full building width 20'1".
I'd make the birdsmouth with a 6" level seatcut to bring the lower edge of the rafter to the top interior corner of the top plate.

From the above 241" building width, subtract the 3.5" ridge tickness and divide by 2 to get the individual rafter horizontal span. (241 - 3.5)/2= 118.75"
The plumb to plumb line length of the rafter is 167.93". you won't get more than about a 12" overhang out of 16' material, I agree on the 18' length.

The bottom of the ridge is 116-3/4" above the plate if you make the cuts as above.

Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on March 07, 2012, 10:39:59 PM
Wednesday Night - March 7th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Thanks Don_P

I was wondering, you figured out all those dimensions of the ridge board, seatcut, rafter length, etc. Did you use long hand calculations for that or do you use some kind of software or online calculator?

Well everyone, I'm excited about tomorrow because the lumber company will be delivering those two LVL beams that are 30 foot long each. It'll be the first time I've ever seen LVL's. I have decided to also keep my 10 foot walls and go with the 12:12 pitch all the way.

Today, after work, I finished sheathing the upper portion of the west gable end. There's a chance of rain coming up in the next few days and I hate the thought of rain on my floor now. The Advantech flooring is holding up very well throughout this whole 'mild' winter but I still don't like the thought of all that water all over my wood.

I have a little more sheathing to do and then I will start on the rest of the interior walls which are very few.

Where I really want to be is to the point of putting in those i-joist. I'll be making web stiffeners at the point of where they intersect and connect to the long walls. I will hold them up by sistering joists under each one. Then I'll be putting 5/8 sub-floor on top of them...maybe I should use 3/4?

By the way, I was a little bit delayed in building for a couple days (ok, maybe only one day). yesterday, my son had to be taken off the road (literally), into an ambulance, and to the emergency room. Another vehicle pulled out in front of him - he was on his motorcycle. Many times he didn't wear his helmet but me and his mother would just about yell at him and tell him to wear it. We never wanted him to have a motorcycle - I just don't see the logic of riding down a road going 50, 60, 70, ot 80 mph with nothing around you - and many people don't wear a helmet, it's crazy!

Anyway, Nathan - my son, was wearing a really good helmet, the day before the accident he went out and got him one of those kevlar bullet proof elbow/back padded leather riding jackets. He had the tall Harley boots and everything. His helmet broke in the accident, it had about a 3" slice in the very back bottom. He's ok, he wasn't even admitted into the hospital. He ended up with a cast on a broken Rt. foot, staples in his head, a concussion, and road rash. We pray for the protection of our kids all the time - he's 24 years old.

He had to have someone take care of him for a few weeks while he hobbles along on his cast and waits for his surgery. Well, we live in this little 30 foot RV while we build our countryplan house so it would have been a handful to take care of him. His twin sister and my son-in-law decided that they would take care of him and he can stay there for awhile. Wow, that's something that I never thought of when I decided to live in an RV and build our house - having to take care of a loved one. (A wheel chair can't fit in the rv).

Anyway, thank you once again for all of your comments and suggestions. I read them over and over again so that I can try my best to understand them all.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on March 07, 2012, 10:53:54 PM
Al generally 3/4"  T&G is used for subfloor. It doesn't have to be Advantex like the exposed flooring you have now. Chances are you will have a roof on before it is done so no need for water protection.   5/8" usually for roof sheeting.

Sorry to hear about your Son. Hope he mends fast.   As the saying goes " been there and done that".  Then I grew up. ;)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on March 08, 2012, 04:41:03 AM
Thursday Morning - March 8th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Thanks Redoverfarm

Those dimensions help me out a lot.

As far as your motorcycle "been there done that", me too but on a bicycle. I used to ride bicycle all the time, even cycled across America twice - once in 1984 - did 4,200 miles on my 10 speed in 62 days. Then again in 1986 on a tandem with my wife - did 4,600+ miles that time in 80 days. Been hit by a car twice throughout my cycling days - a few broken bones, nothing major.

It's raining here now. Soon I hope to be under my new roof - it'll be cool!  [cool]
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on March 08, 2012, 05:59:26 AM
I got tired of doing the calcs longhand. I'm not sure if it'll help or not, I wrote some calcs for figuring it.
This one figures the ridge support height;
http://www.timbertoolbox.com/Calcs/ridgehgtclc.htm

This one rafter length... not sure why I didn't put them together ???;
Since you don't have a hip or valley enter "0" in that box.
http://www.timbertoolbox.com/Calcs/raftercalc.htm

I used 118.75" for span... add for the sheathing 20'1", deduct for the ridge thickness -3.5, Divide total by 2= 118.75" horizontal span.

I've never used 5/8" for a floor, but I've also lived in a house that had no subfloor just oak flooring. I like 3/4 advamtech. We subbed regular 3/4 osb in the loft on a job last year. One rain and the difference in quality was very obvious.

Sorry to hear about your son. Staying with sis, I'd have a real fast recovery  ;D.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on March 08, 2012, 09:18:01 PM
Thanks Don_P

Those online calcs you mentioned are going to be helpful, I'm going to mess with them as soon as I get a little time. You mentioned that you wrote the calcs? Is that your website and did you program those calcs in Java or something? Awesome job if so.

I programmed a Trigonometry Android App in Java a little over a year ago, I think it's got over 500 users by now. It has helped me out in the shop many times. If I had the time, I could sit down and program 10 or 20 Android apps and then maybe I could quit work and just work out of my countryplan home?...ah, I don't think so - I don't want to put all my life into programming all day long all the time - been there done that.

Thanks Don.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on March 08, 2012, 09:44:56 PM
Thursday Night - March 8th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Well, it rained most of the day but it's not raining now. I got out in my countryplan build and tried my best to sweep the water off of the Advantech. The Advantech is performing great for being exposed this whole winter but I can see it discoloring a little bit and also there are a very few tiny spots where it's flaked up...barely. I'm pretty sure OSB or Plywood would have been totally wasted by now.

Another thing I can see by the rain on my floor, it's not perfectly level. There is one particular low spot where the water stays more than anyplace else. Maybe when I put my wood floor down on top of the sub-floor, it'll get a little better.

I sure wish I could do the loft joists and floor AFTER I get the roof done. My first thought is that the walls need the joists connecting them together for strength but now that I'm doing the ridge BEAM, could I do my roof first? I do have one interior wall connecting the long walls together. I could set up scaffolding...ah, maybe I'm just getting ahead of myself and being impatient. I just hate to see the place getting wet on the inside, that's all.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: metolent on March 08, 2012, 10:50:37 PM
I wouldn't worry too much about the wetness - it will all dry out.  I recall shoveling a foot of snow out of my place at one point, only to have it turn to rain the next day, followed by another foot of snow a couple of days later...and despite the fact we live in the PNW, where it's known to rain occasionally, I didn't use Advantech.  Only a month later I thought things were pretty dry until I brought up a propane heater to take the edge off.  As it began to warm up a few degrees, it started to rain inside.  At first I thought the roof was leaking, but after further inspection I realized there was quite a bit of moisture on the underside of the sheathing that had previously frozen. I was thawing it out with the heater, creating a nice indoor rain shower.   d* 

Btw, congrats on getting through the decision process on your roof!  And I hope your son gets well soon.  Looking forward to seeing your progress.... 
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on March 08, 2012, 11:34:00 PM
It is tough to watch it get wet, generally it doesn't do as much damage as our fears. Do keep it swept off and keep the sawdust cleaned up, that stuff is like a sponge. I've lived in the motorhome in front of dozens of houses... I know you are keeping it swept and as dry as possible.

Do the floor first, don't rush, be efficient but don't cut corners. The floor braces and ties and makes a much safer work platform.

If the girders were level and in plane... and if the posts are not sliding into the piers or the piers are not sinking, then the pooling is likely the crown of the joists making a low spot between them.

The calcs are in javascript, that is my site; timbertoolbox.com
I'm not very computer savvy, if you can tweak them please feel free.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on March 10, 2012, 10:28:15 PM
Saturday Night - March 10th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

I sheathed most of the day today, only a little more to go and the outside will be done.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/3-10-2012sheath1.JPG)

I also got a load of lumber delivered, in it was those two 30 foot long LVL's. They are I-Level
Truss Joists: 1.9E - 11 7/8" x 1 7/8". I went to ilevel.com and looked them up and I think
I saw that they are 6.0 pounds per linear foot - 180 lbs each. I lifted one end of each of them
to move them but there's no way I can lift the whole thing.

I decided to buy 1 - 2x12x18 foot long board (about $21.00) just to see how heavy it was, how
it looked, how manageable it is - wow, what a board! I weighed it and it weighs 95 lbs. Hey,
that means that there will be 32 of these 2x12's so that is: 3,040 lbs BUT, isn't it true that with a
ridge beam - 1/2 the weight of the roof is on the beam and the other half on the wall? Anyway,
Here's me lifting that 2x12:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/3-10-20122x12x18.JPG)

Here's the 2 LVL's at the left of the picture and the 2x12x18 to the right:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/3-10-2012lvl1.JPG)

Came home Friday to see the lumber company plopped my lumber right in my driveway:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/3-09-2012delivery1.JPG)

I also started to work on the east gable end, began to tear away the top. I plan to do as Don_P suggested
and put 4 plies of 2x6's with a 1/2" osb fill layer in the center. I'll rest on the 2x12 headers above the window and then pop through the top plate and go all the way up to where the ridge beam will sit into it. The 2 outer 2x6's will go beyond the 2 middle ones in order to 'trap' the ridge beam inside it.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/3-10-2012eastgable.JPG)

Lastly, Don_P mentioned how I could attach my rafters to the ridge beam. I've also read of other methods described in the pic below. I like the way the upper-left configuration looks - how bout that one?

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/3-09-2012rafterridge.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on March 11, 2012, 08:35:25 AM
Looks like a rookie delivery driver, ours normally circle the site in the mud looking for the deepest puddle to drop everything into.

It's real easy to forget just how much weight you build into a structure stick by stick. Even if they're right, your scales are off, that rafter doesn't weigh more than 25 lbs ;D. If we can scaffold the ridge zone well we  lean the rafters up against the wall and I'll work the wall pulling them up and handing the top to Michelle at the ridge. If the ridge is hairy we'll both work the wall and lean the rafter against the ridge, I'll climb and install and come back down for the next.

I don't like to notch the tension edge of the rafter as in detail A. You can and I have, make the notch as small as possible to get it level on top of the ridge. That "re-entrant corner", the inside corner of the notch is where the shear will concentrate trying to generate a split. We just altered ridge height, refigure before setting the support yokes.

Tack a couple of uncut rafters from ground up to the wall top as a ramp when the floor is done. A rope at one end of the lvl's and a willing partner at the other end and you can push and pull them up to the upper deck. Too much, use a come-along, it'll take awhile but will save a pulled muscle.

Leave the top outside 2x6's of one of the ridge support yokes unnailed near the top so you can spread it a little if you need to to get the lvl's to drop into pocket, then smoke it all tight and full of nails, same between the 2 plies of lvl. You are knitting these members together into solid posts and beams, don't skimp on the connections.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on March 11, 2012, 04:52:06 PM
Sunday Afternoon - March 11th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Concerning my East gable wall, the support post made out of 2x6's: I'm going to get rid of my middle window and then go from the bottom plate up to the bottom of the ridge beam - it's 19' 10-1/4". I have a bunch of 2x6x10's laying around and I'm wondering if I can stagger the joints and lay them on top of one another in order to get to that mark. There would be no hinge points and I don't see why the strength would lessen.

By looking at the 'Weight of Materials' chart and seeing that a 2x6 is listed as 2 lbs per linear foot, this should weigh close to 200 lbs.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/ridgepost.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on March 12, 2012, 06:14:11 AM
This method suggested is how I'll be attaching my rafters to my ridge beam:

Quote of Don_P:
"I suggest 2x12 rafters on 24" centers. The plumb cut on the top of that rafter will be almost 16", the ridge is about 12" tall. I would set the ridge so that its' bottom edge is flush with the bottom edge of the rafter. I would attach 2 layers of 2x4 flat on top of the ridge to provide supporting fill for the rafter upper edges. This will leave about an inch of airspace over the top of the ridge for airflow. I typically nail each rafter up with at least 5 toenails and then come back with 9" framing angles nailed to the ridge and the rafter, 1 per rafter."

That 9" framing angle, whats that look like, is it a Strong Tie thing?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on March 12, 2012, 06:40:19 AM
Check out the L90 here;
http://strongtie.com/products/connectors/L-LS-GA.asp

I'm not sure of the 2nd floor at this point, have you worked out all the supports for the catwalk/lofts?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on March 12, 2012, 10:29:55 PM
Monday Night - March 12th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Ok, today I started nailing together my first ridge BEAM post that will fit into my East gable wall. I don't have a picture of it yet but I also removed that middle window and everything that had to do with it so that the post can go from floor to beam. It will go from the floor, through the top plate (anchored there with framing angles) and then all the way up to the bottom of the BEAM. I sandwiched O.S.B. between staggered 2x6's then tomorrow I will add the outer plies of 2x6's that will extend beyond the top by 12" in order to sandwich the beam.

Here's a pic of my beginnings:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/3-12-2012post1.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/3-12-2012post2.JPG)

This drawing is not proportional but here is how I plan to do the loft:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/loft.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on March 13, 2012, 06:37:46 AM
I just want to say, thanks for the compass orientation on the sketch, makes it easier to communicate  :)

I'm assuming the west end of the catwalk is supported on a bearing wall. The catwalk spans 10' and is ~4' wide? The east end is supported by an lvl beam. That beam spans 19'1" and is supported only on the exterior walls at each end? Is it a catwalk or are you flooring over the kitchen to the S wall?

What size are the I joists?

Weave the joints as long as possible on the ridge support posts, this may mean cutting and starting with a short piece of 2x6.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on March 13, 2012, 10:50:49 AM
Tuesday Morning - March 13th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

I called iLevel (Weyerhaeuser) tech support this morning and just to be doubly sure I had the tech person there do some calcs with my LVL beam and my 2x12 @ 24" rafter spacing plan. He did the calcs and he emailed me a pdf file of the results using iLevel's Forte software (I downloaded 'Forte' but haven't played with it yet). The beam did pass the calculations.

He also gave me a multiple member connection chart in pdf format to let me know how to nail my 2 LVL's together. The tech guy over at iLevel was very helpful, took his time, and did a great job of helping me to understand a few more things.

I also found a neat pdf article over at Fine Home Building about using those same LVL's along with i-joist as rafters. The article is very informative and also shows how they used the Strong-Tie supports along with web stiffeners to attach the i-joist to the LVL beam. Even though I'll be using 2x12's and not i-joist (i-joists cost more and may be more technical for me to work with) the article was very worthwhile to read.

Seeing the picture of that attachment made me wonder how my end rafters will meet up to the beam at the very end, that's where those 2 upper and outer 2x6 forks are that cover the beam. Do I simply attach the end rafters to those standing 2x6's?

Here's the pic:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/beamrafterconnection.JPG)

Here is my ridge BEAM calculation in pdf format: (Link Not Available: File Coming Soon)

http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/ridgebeamcalc.pdf (http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/ridgebeamcalc.pdf)

Here is that Fine Home Building article about the ridge beam LVL's along with i-joists: (Link Not Available: File Coming Soon)

http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/lvlbeamijoist.pdf (http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/lvlbeamijoist.pdf)

And lastly, here's that Multiple Member Connection chart showing how to nail the LVL's together: (Link Not Available: File Coming Soon)

http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/multiplememberconnection.pdf (http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/multiplememberconnection.pdf)

My plan now is to go ahead and get both of the 2x6 post up at each end, and then finish the few interior walls that I have left to do, then the loft i-joist on sistered studs inside the wall cavities, and then the loft sub-floor. After that's all done, I'll slip in the LVL beams and call it roof time! K?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on March 13, 2012, 08:15:53 PM
Your raising script sounds ok.
It sounds like you have a good resource to check the second floor design.

You can use that adjustable rafter hanger on your sawn rafters to ridge as well... I think they are ~$8 each.

You can either eliminate the rafter at the gable wall and frame it like I pictured earlier OR you can attach a rafter to the ridge and the inside edge of the yoke. When doing it that way I notch that wall rafter on the top edge on 2' centers to accept 2x4 lookouts laying flatways. They would attach to the first inboard rafter flush to the top, pass thru the notched wall rafter and attach flush to the top edge of the fly. This is the simplest way to frame that.

I use math to set the tall yoke support posts vertical. Figure height, base and hypotneuse from points you can check as you attach the long braces, then check pocket to pocket at the top of the posts to confirm the length. Brace each post in both directions and remember those braces aren't holding the ridge in place, until you have all the plywood on they are bracing the entire thing, make sure the yoke support braces cannot fail. As you frame the roof, a building is the most tender, and at height, so are you!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on March 13, 2012, 08:49:58 PM
Oh, motorhome roofs don't take to dropped rafters well. Or so I've heard  d*. You look close to be starting to work overhead.

Edit;
Another thought has come to mind. I think originally the reason for using the sisters alongside the tall studs was to avoid notching a stud that had thrust from above. With the ridgeBEAM there is no thrust. It takes more time but would save some material cost to let in a ledger. If you think you might want to go that way discuss it with the I-level tech to make sure that is adequate bearing. Under serious point loads, under the catwalk lvl's, do post solid down to the floor.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on March 14, 2012, 05:57:01 AM
Wednesday Morning - March 14th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Well, I removed that middle window on the east gable wall, made my first ridge beam post,
and put it in place. Today, I plan to brace it better for stability.

I had to brace the gable wall securely since I'm cutting the top plate away for acceptance of the post.
Here's a pic showing the 're-braced' wall just before the top plates get cut away:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/3-13-2012nowindow.JPG)

Here's a good pic of the post finished and leaning against the interior wall:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/3-13-2012post1done.JPG)

Using a come-along to help get the post into position:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/3-13-2012post1startslide.JPG)

And finally, the post is in:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/3-13-2012post1in2.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/3-13-2012post1in.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: UK4X4 on March 14, 2012, 11:28:00 AM
Thanks for documenting your build so far - I'm always looking at the photos to see what goes where !

I just a rough calc for your lvl on the side of the 8ft loft using Iforte - which I've been messing with for a few months now- so no expert but think I'm getting it right

I took the catwalk as being 4ft wide 40lbs live and 12 dead 1/2 of it being 6ft long

Built by having two beams 4ft apart and planking going north south -8-)

Ie on the lvl you would need two hangers at 8ft and 12 ft from the north wall

I used the same loading for the loft floor at 4ft tributary- even though your joists actually go the other way-

The program gave me 3 off 1-3/4" X 14" 1.9E lvl's

If I use only 8" of tributary for the loft as the joists run paralel then I get 2 off 1-3/4" X 11 7/8" 1.9E lvls
which makes more sence
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on March 14, 2012, 02:11:18 PM
Thanks so much UK4X4

I really want to learn how to use that iForte but just haven't had the time lately. I'm not understanding your calculations and explanations fully. If you could draw me a sketch of what your talking about, that would be very helpful. (I'm kind of lost when you begin to talk about tributarys and the like...sorry).
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: UK4X4 on March 14, 2012, 07:47:41 PM
basicly as per your dwg

Your joists go north south on the 8ft wide loft

i did the calculation first as if the joists went east west- meaning half the weight of the floor was resting on the lvl beam- ie 4 ft wide and the other half on the gable end wall just to see what I'd get

then I did it the way your joists run on 16" centers each joist supports 16" width of weight- but the lvl will only see 8" as its one sided
thats the second calc.

The catwalk weight
the catwalk is about 12 ft long- I took it to be 4ft wide- ie two beams 12 ft long supporting for example 2" T&G

So I added two point loads to the lvl where the beams would connect - i did it so the catwalk was centered in the building
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on March 15, 2012, 08:59:56 PM
Thursday Night - March 15th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

I got another load of wood today from the lumber yard. I ordered a bunch of 2x6x10's and 2x4x10's and 1 more 20' i-joist to add to my collection, I now have 6 i-joists and just need 9 more - they run $35.00 each.

Today I nailed the outside sheathing to the new ridge beam east post and I put a few supports in the wall cavity. I need to go upward and still add a few more.

I did me a boo-boo. That long ridge beam post that I just put in, the fork part of it is where the lvl slips into it. The lvl is 11-7/8" so that's what I made the height of those forks go above the seat part. I forgot about the 2 2x4's that I'm going to lay on top of that double ridge beam. Don_P told be the dimension I should have used back on page 15 of my build, he said,

"I would build the ridge support post as 4 plies of 2x6 with a 1/2" osb fill layer in the center. The outer 2 plies extend up 14-3/4" above the center plies to form a yoke that the ridge will drop into and be well nailed to."

I'll use the 14-3/4" on the other west ridge beam post. Will that east ridgepost be alright without those outer forks not high enough for the 2x4's?

I also have to go out to the back yard and get me a nice straight 20' cedar tree that will go right in the middle of the build to support the ridge beam at its exact center. I don't want a massive diameter tree but I want one that will be strong enough. Does anyone know what would be a good diameter to shoot for?

Also, After my loft sub-floor is on and all three posts are ready to accept the ridge beam, is that when I can set it in place or do I have to frame the gable ends first?

Hopefully by the end of this week, I'll have the west ridge beam post up and complete all the interior walls. Then it's time to work on the lofts.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/3-14-2012postdone1.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/3-14-2012postdone2.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/3-15-2012eastpost1.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on March 16, 2012, 07:40:27 AM
Your yoke is fine, the 2x4's are mostly just fill and something to nail the upper side of the rafter to to keep it straight. The forks are really to nail the lvl's to, and you got that.

The cedar post... you can check out the column calcs on my website, my gut reaction is to pick a nice straight one that you can inscribe a 6x6 inside the bark on the small end of. Take your time cruising the timber, cedar can hide some pretty good defects. I'd notch a set of forks in it as well. You may want to get it in and standing out of the way before you close up the floor, think about manuevering room either way. Then I'd do the floor and attach the post... this is from my understanding of the build and post location.

Laying out a straight line around a log... get some construction paper wrap it around the log and line the edges of the paper up, trace around the line formed by the edge.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on March 16, 2012, 12:46:09 PM
On all of my standing post I stood up, braced at plumb and then used a flat surface such as 1X or 2X on the floor adjacent to the post and mark on the top edge just rotating it around the post until the line connects.  Of course you would have to be percise with your length in cutting the opposite end.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on March 17, 2012, 06:02:42 AM
Saturday Morning - March 17th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Yesterday after work I reinforced the east ridge beam post a little more and added more sheathing to the top. A few more little pieces of sheathing up there and all the outside sheathing will be done. Then I'll have to poke all the window holes thru.

I'm also going to add a 3rd top plate 2x6 on top of the east gable wall going from each side of post to each end.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/3-16-2012eastpost.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on March 17, 2012, 08:55:10 PM
Saturday Night - March 17th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Ok, as suggested, we moved our home today - the RV. What an adventure that is, when you live in an RV and then move it around your property periodically. We've been in that one spot 5 feet behind our countryplan build for maybe 6 months, since August 15th, 2011. Also, I know I should be starting it up once in awhile but I don't remember ever doing it. After I've lived in the RV for so long I kind of forget that the thing has a motor in it and can go down the road.

Well, it started right up today and purred like a kitten. We had to cut some trees down and clear some brush but after about 4 or 5 hours we had it in place.

Boy, the view of the house from the back, with out the RV there, is really nice.

Here's the pics of our new look:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/3-17-2012northview4.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/3-17-2012westside.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/3-17-2012northview2.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on March 17, 2012, 11:46:16 PM
It was actually a dropped house log we bounced off of our roof, luckily a glancing blow. We've had some different camping spots on jobsites. A nice little creek on one job turned into a raging torrent that took a BIG tractor to pull us out of in the middle of the night. On another I wound the 454 quadrabog up and tried to fly to the top of a snowy logging road out west. When my momentum ran out gravity won and back down the mountain basswards we went. Running it into the hill seemed the better part of valor. It took the excavators large articulated loader folding himself back and forth to shove me to the top. He came back out with a dozer to belay me down a few months deeper into winter. Over in Redovers neck of the woods I had come down the mountain into the oldest river bottom on the continent. I had the air doors on the carb wired open so the 4 barrell was either on or off, when you called for it she was wide open throttle. I wanted a good head of steam up to climb the other side so opened her up when I thought the timing was right. I was a trifle early but stubborn with my white knuckles. Hit the bottom of the hill at 90 and crossed the top at 35... I hope John can't write retroactive tickets  ;D Our PO was Smoot,WV... we were Smootians all summer  :D I enjoyed living on the rural sites, we live in a beautiful country. I could wander around and get the job started while breakfast was cooking and could work whenever the mood struck, or we could still make progress in spurts in less desireable weather. But it sure is nice to be able to stretch without hitting a wall when you're done with the house.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on March 18, 2012, 05:37:10 AM
Those sure are some adventurous stories Don_P.

Yesterday, when we were moving the RV, there were a few times it didn't seem to have enough power to make it through the soft moist dirt (almost mud) even though I had the RV's 454 floored. It's doing pretty good for a 1985 model though.

Here's a picture of our 30' 1985 Fleetwood PaceArrow RV on the day I went to first look at it around August 1st, 2011, bought it for $3,200:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/rvnewtous.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ChuckinVa on March 18, 2012, 09:32:25 PM
Over in Redovers neck of the woods I had come down the mountain into the oldest river bottom on the continent.

Oddly enough called the "new" river.....
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on March 19, 2012, 06:19:58 AM
Monday Morning - March 19th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Saturday and Sunday were pretty big work days here at the place. Saturday we moved our RV to a location about 100 feet away from where it was. Then I had to redo all the lines to it, electric, water, etc.

Sunday I put up ridge BEAM post number 2 on the west gable end of my countryplan 20x30. The build and installation of ridge beam number 2 went a lot better than the first one. I learned a few tricks about lifting it up and placing it into position. I had to have help from a neighbor at the very end of the process of getting post number one in place. I did post number two on my own.

When a 4-ply 20 foot high 2x6 post with OSB sandwiched in the middle of it begins to fall it can be devastating, the thing weighs over 200 lbs and at over 20 foot high it can gain momentum pretty quickly.

It didn't go so well when I made my first ridge beam post. I hadn't mentioned it before but at one time I had it just about standing up against my 20' wide interior wall right next to the north long wall when it decided to slide across it and fall against the opposite long wall. It pried itself into the corner of a stud and outside sheathing. The interior wall is only anchored by being nailed to the long walls and it had one brace in the middle, it probably should have had at least two maybe even three. It also had a joint in it because I made the wall in two sections.

Well, when that beam slid along the wall, the weight of it tried to push the wall over, popped out the brace board that was held in by two nails, and separated the joint where two studs met. It didn't knock the wall over but it sure put a curve into it. I added more braces to it and fixed it up good.

All that to say that I did things a little differently and more carefully when I built post number two. I thought the story of how one guy builds a post like that and puts it in place by himself might interest people so I'll show you my process:

First and most importantly, I begin to build it right next to where it will slide up into place:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/3-18-2012ridgepost2-1.JPG)

Next I brace the gable wall with long 2x4's at 45 degrees at the top and also brace to the left and right off center. I also cut away the top plate to accept the post. I then put a small piece of 2x6 between two studs that will be used as a base to slide the post up with. I saw and pry this away after the post is almost vertical but not up and in.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/3-18-2012ridgepost2-wall.JPG)

Now the post is finished and it's time to start lifting it by hand...watch the back - lift with the knees and legs.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/3-18-2012ridgepost2-2a.JPG)

Next, I lift it little by little putting the saw horse(s) under it - getting it higher and higher. Then I put a ladder against the wall and used it to rest the yoke end upon as I try to lift it higher wrung by wrung. I had to use a chair and then I used boards across the saw horses to stand upon in order to get leverage.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/3-18-2012ridgepost2-3.JPG)

Higher and higher...

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/3-18-2012ridgepost2-4.JPG)

A little more higher but wait, in this picture you'll be able to see something that was most important. The end of the post wanted to always slide back down so I had to put boards laying flat and against the far wall in order to stop it from sliding. You can see them at the lower right of the picture.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/3-18-2012ridgepost2-5.JPG)

Sliding it further and further into position. Now I have the boards on the floor being stopped by the interior wall doorway. You can barely see them on the floor at the base of the post. Oh, one more thing, remember that 2 x 8 x 32 foot long board that I 'was' going to use as a ridge BOARD? I put it in the exact middle on the very top of the building to be used as a temporary brace and support. You can see it going across at the very top of the picture.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/3-18-2012ridgepost2-6.JPG)

Ok, up a little bit more. In this next picture you can barely see it but at the very top you'll notice that I had to nail a small piece of 2x6 on each side of the post at the very top because now that it's almost all the way up, it's barely sitting into it's cavity. It could slide out and down the wall - kind of like my first adventure.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/3-18-2012ridgepost2-7.JPG)

Ok, now I've got it right next to the wall. This is the point where I needed my neighbors help when I did post number one. This is kind of hard to explain but I used the lever/fulcrum principle to move the post into position lastly. Archimedes wrote: 'Give me a place to stand on and I will move the world.' in reference to a lever. I nailed a 3 or 4 foot long 2x4 to each side of the post near its bottom and then pushed them like a lever. It caused the post to lift up and move forward a little over a foot each time I did it. I had to pry them apart and then hammer them back into the same nail hole each time. I only had to do this about 3 times all together. I made a video of how I did it and I'll post it next.

You'll also notice that I nailed to boards on the floor at the left and right of the post so that there was no way that it could slide or go out of position.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/3-18-2012ridgepost2-8.JPG)

Alright, now the post is in and done for now. Final leveling and touch up will be today. I gotta run, I'll post that video later. Here's the last picture of post in place.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/3-18-2012ridgepost2-9.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on March 19, 2012, 06:52:28 AM
Al it will not be long now that you have that problem worked out.  When you work alone your biggest asset is "thought".  How to manage things by yourself.  I have found that when working with things "larger than me" that a come-a-long can be my best friend.  I also keep a few rachet straps and anchor blocks around to hold something in the interim while I reconfigure my material and thoughts.   ;D
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on March 19, 2012, 09:33:34 AM
Thanks redoverfarm.

I am learning that while working alone, the most dangerous thing is being impatient and getting in a hurry. A person could get 'seriously killed'.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on March 19, 2012, 05:54:08 PM
Monday Night - March 19th, 2012

Here is that video showing the way I used levers to move the ridge beam post forward and into its wall cavity:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6SJIPBliy4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6SJIPBliy4)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: duncanshannon on March 19, 2012, 06:55:35 PM
 [cool] Nicely done Al!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ClaudeM on March 19, 2012, 08:09:24 PM
Hello, first post here. This is a great site and it is very instructive to see the progress of other owner-builder projects, just like the one that I plan to do in a year or so, when I'll retire. Like so many, I've been lurking here for a few months before becoming a member.

Sorry to ask, but I have a question for Don_P, about the following statement, especially the point saying not to break the beam over the post:

"4 ply 2x12's in #2 SYP or 3 ply in #1 SYP would work, but a double 30' long 11-1/4" LVL works by my math and would be my choice. Do not break it over the post, full 30' or the deflection gets bad."

If I take the formula below for determining the deflection of a bending member, it looks to me that the span L (15 feet in the case of Al's project) is the same whether the beam is broken over the post or not:

(5 * W * L³) / ( 384 * E * (bd³) / 12)

My interpretation, thus, would be that the deflection would theoretically be the same if the beam is cut in two parts. There's surely something wrong in my assumptions, since I'm not an expert nor an engineer. Is there any other math to use? I'll appreciate to learn where are the flaws in my deduction.

Thanks in advance for answering. That will be helpful for my cabin project, for which I figure using a ridge beam.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on March 20, 2012, 07:51:18 AM
Tuesday Morning - March 20th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Thank you for that comment duncanshannon. And that's a pretty good question ClaudeM, I'd like to hear Don_P's reply myself on that. I'm glad there's no reason for me to break the beam over that middle post anyway. It seems to me that whenever a joint is created, a weak spot is also created. Now for some new news:

Yesterday I decided to take off work at lunch time in order to 'batten down the hatches' here at our place before the major rain storm hit.

I took all of the wood, sheathing, boards, panels, etc., that were laying around the house and stored them under the house. We also lifted the temporary electric line off of the ground so that it wouldn't end up under the water. Storage is one of the main reasons I decided to go with pier and beam style and made my floor almost 5 feet off the ground.

The wind really started to pick up and I began to hear thunder in the distance as I finished storing the wood under the house. At that moment I thought how hard the wind might blow on all of the delicate surface area of the walls. I initially only cut out a few window holes after I sheathed the outside so I thought that the walls would take a lot less stress from the wind if I allowed the wind to gust through the window holes in the coming storm. So I decided to open up all window holes the fast way, with a chain saw. It worked out great and I was amazed at how fast I was able to cut out all the window holes. It all took me about 1/2 an hour. I tried my best to get as close as I could to the studs, headers, and sills as I cut the openings. At some spots I left a little edge where I'll have to come back and trim. At other spots I went right against the studs, barely scrapping them and cut it flush.

My first try at opening a window hole was with a saws-all. It was very tedious and took a long time, I probably didn't have the right blade for it either. Then I read and/or someone told me where you poke nails through the 4 corners from the inside, go outside and pop-a-line from nail to nail, and then use a circular saw to cut out the opening. Using the circular saw with a ladder wasn't very nice, it became heavy, and I had to move the ladder here and there for leverage. Using the chain saw was a breeze! Should I have not used the chain saw? Why don't everyone use a chain saw to open window holes? It seems so much easier than all the other methods.

Yes, the chain saw cuts left the sheathing a little rough here and there ( a circular saw cut is cleaner) but in the end it will all be covered up and it didn't do a bad job. I was pretty amazed at how the house suddenly began to look more like a house once the window views became visible.

Here are the pictures of how the house looks now with all the window openings visible:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/3-19-2012northwestout.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/3-19-2012eastout3.JPG)

And here is a video I took right after I cut the window openings:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ7OMwujotg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ7OMwujotg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on March 20, 2012, 09:01:57 AM
....cutting out windows.....

Chain saw works.  Chain saw is probably more dangerous to the operator than a sawzall, IMO.

Sawzall also work well with a wood cutting blade, fairly coarse teeth. That's the beauty of them; many different blades styles and lengths for different jobs.

Circular saw makes a prettier cut and the cordless ones are reasonably light.

Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on March 20, 2012, 09:58:17 AM
Quote from: ClaudeM on March 19, 2012, 08:09:24 PM

Sorry to ask, but I have a question for Don_P, about the following statement, especially the point saying not to break the beam over the post:

"4 ply 2x12's in #2 SYP or 3 ply in #1 SYP would work, but a double 30' long 11-1/4" LVL works by my math and would be my choice. Do not break it over the post, full 30' or the deflection gets bad."


Don_P will come along soon I'm sure; he is recovering from surgery so might not be immediate. However, I think I know the answer, though a little knowledge is dangerous at times. And that is where the issue mentioned comes from... a little knowledge".

When the beam is calculated as broken over the center column as the beam deflects down between columns there is an upwards moment at each end of that segment. When the beam is calculated to be a continuous length with a support at each end and one support in the center things change. The beam still wants to deflect downwards between each support column, but the continuity of the beam changes how it reacts at the center column support. That changes how it deflects. This will also likely change the load on the center column. But as I have a little knowledge I'd be getting myself into another "thin ice" area is I was to speculate on that. I think the load on the center column will be greater with a continuous beam, but not sure.  ???   It is probably going to be carrying the greatest load of all the points in the structure. But that is speculation; don't believe it.   ;D

Online charts, tables, calculators and programs can be very useful. However, it can be easy to get into trouble when one is not trained in the mechanics of structures and the forces that act on them. I think they still teach engineers the way to manually calculate loads and forces. Once they understand the principles, then they use computers too. You can also learn a lot of this in self study, too but have to be careful about making a leap from one thing to another, because not everything can be as simple as it may appear. This can also be said about using tables when we may begin to use the tabular information in ways it was not really intended.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on March 20, 2012, 12:51:20 PM
Thank you MD,

That's very good information - makes me wish I would have went to college for an engineering degree.

I'm glad I called the ilevel engineer and became sure of my beam calculation using 3 posts.

Here's the ridgeBEAM calculation that was figured for me by ilevel, I have a link to it in a previous
post but I went ahead and made a jpg picture of it:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/beamcalc.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on March 20, 2012, 11:43:32 PM
 w*Claude,
Don got it, I just had some graphics that might help. They are from DA6 here;
http://awc.org/publications/download.html
Notice the difference in the simple beam deflection formula that you posted, and then what it becomes in the second, uniformly loaded continuous beam formula.
(https://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x109/windyhilll/smpluniform.jpg)
(https://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x109/windyhilll/unifcont.jpg)

MD was also spot on on the reactions, notice that if we have 2 simple beams joined over a central post, that post would bear half the load but if it is a single continuous beam across 3 posts that center post will carry 5/8 of the beam load.

I'm just self taught but if you want to discuss this further we should probably start another thread and I'd bwe happy to go as far as I can.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on March 21, 2012, 09:39:21 AM
Wednesday Morning - March 21st, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

I was very involved in thinking that my next step in my build is supporting and putting up the i-joists and then getting the sub-floor on so that I can begin my roof system BUT...I just realized that I think it's time for me to house wrap? It may still be a few months (at the most) till my roof is started and I don't want all that osb getting wet. Even after I had my first sheets up, after it rained a few times I noticed swelling where the rain came down into the upper edges.

Am I correct in thinking that I should immediately house wrap now that I have all my outside sheathing done and window and door openings cut? I've never house wrapped before so I guess I'll have to study up on the subject. Any helpful links, comments, and/or suggestions would be very appreciated.

Also, I hope the wrap isn't too expensive. Anybody know about how much I should buy for my countryplan 20x30x10 foot high walls? I guess I can go to my local Lowes and get it too.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: suburbancowboy on March 21, 2012, 04:04:05 PM
When I did mine is used 1 1/2 rolls tyvek from lowes.  Easy to put on with two people, pain with one.  Seems like I paid 175 per roll.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on March 21, 2012, 06:20:01 PM
Al I used Dow Weathermate Plus Styrofoam wrap on mine additons at the house and the cabin. Not real sure it has any insulation value but it is thicker and more plyable than the rigid woven rolls.   It comes in 10'X150'.  Real easy to install but it is better with two people.  I believe Tyvex also has 10' wide rolls.  I realize that you may not be ready for the roof but that would be my choice over wrapping the house.  Once you get the house covered ( inclusive of overhangs) then there will be virtually no or little rain on the sheeting.  But then again the wrap should only take you a day to complete.  The Lvl's do not get along with moisture so installing them prior to the roof would not be a good idea.

http://www.cbsbuilderssupply.com/docs/dow_wmp.pdf

Their installation instructions

http://building.dow.com/na/en/tools/installations/wmplus.htm

Here is Tyvex

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-100422450/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=hOUSE WRAP&storeId=10051

Lowes Brand

http://www.lowes.com/pd_168290-210-LW1490_0__?productId=3015321&Ntt=house+wrap&pl=1&currentURL=%2Fpl__0__s%3FNtt%3Dhouse%2Bwrap&facetInfo=
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on March 21, 2012, 08:38:29 PM
Wednesday Night - March 21st, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Thank you all for such awesome information, it's helping me tremendously.

Well, the build is getting wet again. There was a major rain yesterday, so much that I had to stay home from work because the car got stuck and there was flooding around here...nothing too major though. At least I was able to work on the build today all the way to nightfall - then the rain came again.

I leveled the west ridge BEAM post within the wall cavity and then braced it with some small pieces of 2x6's between the studs. The whole wall was a little out of level so I undid the 45 degree brace boards that I had on top and I put one end of a chain around the post at the top plate and the other end around a distant tree branch along with a come-along. I was able to get it right where I want it. Then I re-braced it accordingly.

I consider myself blessed to be able to live where my build is. I can get home from work, take a few steps, and be right in the middle of the build and work till it's dark. We even acquired a really nice dog that was a stray. We decided to keep him so we took him to the vet, got him all his shots, and he's the perfect pup, about 8 or 9 months old. He's a great dane and lab mix. We even let him in our RV at night with us and he's never gone to the bathroom inside of it. Back to the build.

Here's a picture of the chain pulling on the wall as it's being leveled:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/3-21-2012chainwestpost.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/3-21-2012chainwestpost2.JPG)

And here's the west post leveled and braced:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/3-21-2012westpost2.JPG)

And now here is our new pup - Buddy! (Pic coming soon)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/buddy.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Bob S. on March 21, 2012, 08:46:08 PM
Young Mix-Breed stray dogs the very best there is. I am sure he will make a great companion and be part of the family.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ClaudeM on March 22, 2012, 05:54:39 PM
Thanks Don_P and MountainDon for the information.

Seeing the difference in formulas in both diagrams says it all. My error was that I paid attention only on the simple beam load situation pictured in the first diagram. I completely overlooked the second diagram when I studied the AWCC's document Wood Structural Design Data that I downloaded a few weeks ago.

Wish you the best, Don_P, in your recovery, and Al for your building project.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on March 25, 2012, 09:13:04 PM
I worked on the last bit of sheathing this weekend. I now just have to finish trimming out the window holes and get the osb smooth to the stud edges because the chain saw left rough edges here and there. Then I'll be ready to roll on the house wrap.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/3-24-2012sheathingdone.JPG)

Also, I noticed the scrap metal from when I cut my angle iron and square tube piers so I thought I would make a video that explains the material I used and how I did it. I document the thicknesses and types of metal used.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6nN3Qxk420 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6nN3Qxk420)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on March 26, 2012, 05:23:14 AM
Monday - March 26th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Oh no...

I had forgotten to mention an LVL problem of mine in my last post.

I have those two LVL's sitting on boards above the ground, laying flat, and covered with a tarp due to a massive rain storm that hit our area a few days ago. They are stored off the ground on top of 2x's. They weren't covered with the tarp until I got news of the rain storm.

Well, it rained for 3 or 4 days and it's also been a couple of days since then. Just before dark last night I thought I would uncover the end of them just to get a peak, the top one is cupped and the bottom one is ok. I should have stored them on their edge instead of laying flat, I think that would have helped the cup condition to lesson.

Apparently, the humidity and moisture just under the tarp that accumulated on top of the top LVL caused those wood fibers to contract. I've read up a little on this and it seems that once it dries back again, the cupping will decrease. This is important to me because I have to nail those two LVL's together and they also have to squeeze in between the yoke of the ridge posts that I have up and waiting for them.

This morning, before I go to work, I'm going to go out there and uncover them. There is no rain in the forcast that I see so that won't be an issue. I've also read where clamping them to remove the cupping may not work and could cause them to split.

Lesson learned: I should have stacked them on their edge and I should have uncovered them and wiped off any moisture right after the rain stopped. Also, it would have been advantageous to put 2x's all the way down on top of their edge and then put the tarp over the 2x's. That way, any moisture just under the tarp would have gotten on the 2x's.

Oh well, I hope both of my LVL Ridge beams end up being straight by the time I get them up and into position. This makes me think of another thing. After my LVL's are up and into position, I better be ready to put my rafters on right away and get done with the roof so that any rain that may come will not affect them. I guess I could nail a tarp on the very peak of the rafters if they have to sit through any rain.

Am I on the right track with my thinking?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MWAndrus on March 26, 2012, 04:31:36 PM
Flip the cupped one over and see if it will pull the other way. Your problem may fix itself.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on March 29, 2012, 05:52:52 AM
Thursday Morning - March 29th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Thank you very much MWAndrus, I did flip those LVL's over (and over again) and they look much better. Maybe not 'as good as new' but much better.

Onto the build:

I have spent the last few days house wrapping the house. I bought my 9'x150' roll from Lowes (as you can tell in the pics) and it cost me $98.00 plus tax. One roll was more than enough. After the first wrap around I cut the left over stick (about 45') into 3 sections of 3 foot lengths and only used 2 of them.

My neighbor held the roll and unwound it around the base as I was behind him nailing it, it probably took about 1/2 an hour. I used those short galvanized shingle nails BUT I am going to go back again with the larger washered plastic cap nails. The left over 3' of top row, I did by myself. I had to straddle the top of the wall all the way around while unrolling, holding onto the roll with knee and foot, and nailing all at the same time, that was a work out indeed! Then I used a ladder to do the top rows bottom.

I still have to go back and cut out the wrap where the windows are. I also was thinking about putting some wrap on top of the top plate so rain won't get down the edge of the osb. I already can see where the osb has swelled at the top edges that are exposed to rain. Then I can remove the wrap on top of the top plate on the day I begin the roof.

My guess is that it still may be a month or more before I have the roof on so I really hope the wrap will stay intact on the windy days.

Here's the pictures, North West View:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/3-28-2012housewrap1.JPG)

North East View:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/3-28-2012housewrap2.JPG)

South West View:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/3-28-2012housewrap3.JPG)

Southern View:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/3-28-2012housewrap4.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on March 29, 2012, 06:33:15 AM
A little late AL but I would have left the wrap covering the windows until you were ready.  Leaving a doorway for entry/exit to the inside.  The cap nails will hold better especially if you have wind as it will be less likely to tear and fray. 
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on March 29, 2012, 09:05:01 AM
Dang it. I was going to say something way back when you cut the holes in the OSB for the windows. No need to do that until you are installing windows.  But it was too late, so I remained silent.

I should have spoke up as I feel the same way as redoverfarm about the wrap. Left intact it helps keep the wet out.  Maybe someone else can benefit in the future.  I left the OSB and the weather resistant barrier to both be cut out at the same time just before the windows were to be installed.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on March 29, 2012, 09:11:40 AM
If you have thin strips of left overs and cut offs, 1x2, 1x3 type of stuff, scraps of OSB cut into strips and so on, you can nail or screw them over the wrap to help keep it in place in the wind.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Alan Gage on March 29, 2012, 09:44:14 AM
Quote from: MountainDon on March 29, 2012, 09:05:01 AM
I left the OSB and the weather resistant barrier to both be cut out at the same time just before the windows were to be installed.

How do you cut them both at the same time while leaving enough wrap to wrap inside the window/door openings?

I'd think with the housewrap wrapped inside the openings that would keep nearly all the water off the edges of the OSB.

Alan
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on March 29, 2012, 10:17:16 AM
Cut the wrap and OSB with one saw cut.
Use self stick window flashing material to tape and seal the wrap to sill plate, then the two sides and finally the top, being careful to leave the "flap" above the window/door free so it can be placed over the top flange of the window and sealed with self stick flashing. Install window. Apply flashing strip over window flange; do sides and then the top, not the bottom in this step. (leaves a place for any water that makes it back there to get out),

This can be done even before the weather resistant barrier is even installed. Then install the window. Then install the wrap. Then seal the wrap to the window with more flashing. More in the Grace Guide below....

GRACE Vycor Guide
(http://www.na.graceconstruction.com/custom/flashings/downloads/26324_Guide-B.pdf)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: John Raabe on March 29, 2012, 10:43:55 AM
Here are some images of housewrap installations that might help.

https://www.google.com/search?q=wrapping+a+window+tyvek&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=9wx&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=imvns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&ei=voJ0T9qOEYm3iwLs8ckX&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CDoQ_AUoAQ&biw=1290&bih=696
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on March 29, 2012, 05:17:43 PM
Thursday - March 29th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Thank you for all of the responses, that's some very good information.

I have a reason for me wanting to open all the window and door holes after OSB installation and house wrap, the wind and the length of time it will be till my roof is on and my loft joists are up.

Keep in mind that I only have one interior wall in place right now and it's about a 3rd of the way from the west gable wall. It connects the long walls. That interior wall and the bracing along all walls are the only thing holding them up. I didn't want a lot of wind force on my walls because their not as stable as they would be when my roof and my loft joists are in place. So I figured that the more I'm able to decrease the surface area for wind resistance, the less force there will be on the walls.

Also, the season for bad storms here in Oklahoma is coming soon and it gets pretty rough around here. I've read about roofs being blown off once windows are broken and the wind force enters into the house. Seeing that I have no roof, I thought it wise to let the air in.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on March 30, 2012, 08:06:33 PM
Friday Night - March 30th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

I have a question about a 2x6 interior plumbing wall meeting up to a 2x4 wall where the bathroom door will be. Coming from my west gable end wall will be a 2x6 wall where the plumbing will be for the toilet and hot water heater, etc.

At first I thought about just taking the 2x6 wall all the way to the perpendicular full width interior wall but then I thought that the interior bathroom door isn't made to go into a 2x6 wall?

Do I just take the 2x6 wall to the point just before where the bathroom door will be and then start the 2x4 wall? ... nailing stud face to stud face?

Here's a shot of my 1st floor plan. In it you'll notice the thicker 2x6 wall that goes from right to left till it meets the 2x4 wall where the bathroom door is. How do I make the 2 walls meet?

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/1stfloorplan.JPG)

You'll also notice 2 bi-fold doors, one in a little closet where we plan to have the hot-water heater and the other is the bedroom closet. So I have to figure out my rough openings for those two bi-fold doors. I called Lowes to inquire about their bi-fold doors and they said the rough openings for the above mentioned spots are: 47-3/4" wide for the long bi-fold rough opening and 25" for the smaller closet. Both rough opening heights are: 80-3/4". Does that sound right to you? I think the longer bi-fold in  the larger room is just 2 of them put together?

Here's the link to the Lowe's bi-fold door:

http://www.lowes.com/pd_10757-77999-10757_0__?productId=3406592&Ntt=bifold+doors&pl=1&currentURL=%2Fpl__0__s%3FNtt%3Dbifold%2Bdoors&facetInfo= (http://www.lowes.com/pd_10757-77999-10757_0__?productId=3406592&Ntt=bifold+doors&pl=1&currentURL=%2Fpl__0__s%3FNtt%3Dbifold%2Bdoors&facetInfo=)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on April 01, 2012, 06:52:25 AM
Sunday Morning - April 1st, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

I've started my interior bathroom wall and decided to make all interior walls 2x4's. I can start on my loft joists after I get these few interior walls finished - that will be exciting to me, to finally be able to step up there on the loft.

Here's 2 pictures of the start of the bathroom wall:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/3-31-2012bathroomwall1.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/3-31-2012bathroomwall2.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on April 02, 2012, 05:56:55 AM
Monday Morning - April 2nd, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Finished the interior bathroom wall. Now starting on the adjacent bedroom wall and the 2 short walls that connect them. Here's pictures:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/4-01-2012bathroomwall1.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/4-01-2012bathroomwall2.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/4-01-2012bathroomwall3.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on April 03, 2012, 06:03:15 AM
Tuesday Morning - April 3rd, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Finished the main interior walls. Just have to do the 2 smaller walls that will connect the bathroom wall and the bedroom wall. One small wall will create the bedroom closet and the other one will be the hot-water heater closet. Both will have bi-fold doors.

The loft i-joists will sit on top of these interior walls forming the main loft area.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/4-02-2012intwalls8.JPG)

I always make sure my wife comes out to help me lift walls whether I need the help or
not , that exciting part should never be forgotten:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/4-02-2012intwalls5.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/4-02-2012intwalls4.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: NM_Shooter on April 03, 2012, 09:15:05 AM
Looking good.  You will breathe a sigh of relief when the roof is on. 
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: UK4X4 on April 03, 2012, 04:20:51 PM
Hope your all tied down nice and tight and this weather does not go north !

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2124648/Debris-thrown-skies-large-extremely-dangerous-Tornado-targets-Texas.html
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on April 03, 2012, 06:47:18 PM
Tuesday Night - April 3rd, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Well, a 4.0 earthquake hit this morning here in mid-oklahoma at 2:33am, it was centered 16 miles from where I work in McAlester, Oklahoma and 56 miles from my countryplan. Everyone at work (most live there in McAlester) was talking about how it woke them up. I didn't feel a thing, must be the good shock absorbers in this RV (I don't have it totally leveled since I last moved it).

I tried my  best to do as much as I could on my build but it started raining too hard. I got a bucket of plastic cap nails from a guy at work who had some left from when he had his place built and he gave them to me. So I got out there as fast as I could but I was only able to go over the top plate of the long south wall.

I cut the house wrap 1 foot length in order to go over the top plate and cover it until I put my roof on. I figure that it'll still be some weeks before I have my roof on and I don't want the edges of the osb to get wet up there. When roof time comes, I'll remove the wrap up top for layout purposes.

Here's a couple pictures of the house wrap over the top plate:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/4-03-2012topwrap1.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/4-03-2012topwrap2.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on April 05, 2012, 04:57:09 AM
Thursday Morning - April 5th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Yesterday after work I used those plastic cap nails on the house wrap, cut open all the window holes, and also put some wrap on top of one of the large window sills.

I'm figuring, since it'll be a little longer till roof time - I'll also cover the top exposed window sills with the house wrap so that water won't get into those exposed edges of the osb. There's a few wrinkles in the wrap but oh well, I'm hoping that won't affect things. I hope to begin working on the i-joist placements for the loft before the week is out.

I'll be applying many more plastic cap nails on the wrap in the next few days.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/4-04-2012wrap4.JPG)

Here's that large window where I covered the sill with plastic wrap. Will I have to remove
that wrap and those nails that are on the sill and around the window? Will the window seat properly if I leave them there?

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/4-04-2012wrap5.JPG)

And here are those plastic cap nails:

(Pic Coming Soon)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/4-04-2012wrap6.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: rdzone on April 05, 2012, 10:50:44 AM
Just an FYI be careful with all those cap nails around the window openings, they may interfere with your window install.  If they are to close to the edge of the window opening your window fins may not sit flush.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on April 05, 2012, 11:44:03 AM
Thank you rdzone,

I'll remove any plastic cap nails that interfere with the window installations.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on April 05, 2012, 12:29:21 PM
Since they are all cut out already and there is concern about water, why not go right ahead and install the self stick flashing (Grace Vycor Plus or equivalent) ?  Then it's done and the window cut outs are waterproof (pretty much).
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on April 06, 2012, 05:24:31 AM
Friday Morning - April 6th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Great timing Don!

I searched youtube for a video on Grace Vycor Plus and found a really good straight forward video that shows me how to install it. In the beginning of the video, they show about 4 or 5 houses that were only a couple of years old and were already greatly affected by mold, rot, and moisture because of no or improper flashing.

Here are links to the video, installation pdf, and the price at Lowes.

Here's the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6i7U75cECE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6i7U75cECE)

The installation pdf:

http://www.na.graceconstruction.com/custom/flashings/downloads/26324_Guide-B.pdf (http://www.na.graceconstruction.com/custom/flashings/downloads/26324_Guide-B.pdf)

Lowes sells a roll of this stuff for about $30.00:

http://www.lowes.com/pd_236541-711-5003104_0__?productId=3027049&Ntt=flashing&pl=1&currentURL=%2Fpl__0__s%3FNtt%3Dflashing%26page%3D1&facetInfo= (http://www.lowes.com/pd_236541-711-5003104_0__?productId=3027049&Ntt=flashing&pl=1&currentURL=%2Fpl__0__s%3FNtt%3Dflashing%26page%3D1&facetInfo=)

Grace also has rolls of roofing underlayment that sell for about $115.00 a roll. Two rolls would do my whole roof. Here's that at Lowes:

http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay?partNumber=283849-711-5008030&langId=-1&storeId=10151&productId=3151833&catalogId=10051&cmRelshp=req&rel=nofollow&cId=PDIO1 (http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay?partNumber=283849-711-5008030&langId=-1&storeId=10151&productId=3151833&catalogId=10051&cmRelshp=req&rel=nofollow&cId=PDIO1)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: walkabout on April 06, 2012, 02:03:15 PM
When I flashed my windows after the tyvek was up I used a similar product:
http://www2.dupont.com/Tyvek_Weatherization/en_US/products/residential/resi_flexwrapnf.html (http://www2.dupont.com/Tyvek_Weatherization/en_US/products/residential/resi_flexwrapnf.html)

(https://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv137/home_walkabout_usa/Cabin%20rebuild/DSC06527.jpg)

The inspecter did however want to see a slight slope from inside to outside on all the 2x6 under the window so that "if" any water should get in it should naturauly drain to the outside.
He allowed me to just insert shims from the inside to raise the inside edge of the sill 2x6.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: beckhamk on April 08, 2012, 04:16:52 PM
I'll second the tyvek flex wrap for creating pans - i used it mainly for the front and rear doors.    Al - i feel your pain with those nail caps, thats what our harware provided me and then i saw this - you need one! 

http://www.amazon.com/Stinger-CH38A/dp/B002FYCZCA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTFMm7R97UE

its worth its weight in gold!  I recall wrapping our inside beams with the tyvek before the roof was on (outside hadnt been wrapped yet) and it was a real pain to work with those nail caps.  This is a breaze!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on April 14, 2012, 04:19:45 AM
Saturday Morning - April 14th, 2012

Finally got all the interior walls finished. Can't find my phone cable at this moment so pictures will have to wait.

I've noticed builds here where there was no cap plate on the top of the interior walls under the loft joists. I plan to put cap plates on my interior walls because it will stabilize the joints and make them stronger, am I correct?

Also, I looked up a pretty good weather data base just to see how much rain has fallen on my build, especially my Advantech flooring. The database only goes to a larger city/town then where I live that's about 35 miles away but that'll do. The data there said that it rained 21.5" since the day I brought the flooring home and started to install it up till today. Here is the link to that weather data:

http://www.wunderground.com/ (http://www.wunderground.com/)

The Advantech flooring is doing well but I can see discoloration and very few spots where the layers are barely starting to want to 'undo'.

I'm now ready to start cutting web-stiffeners and installing studs and i-joists in my wall cavities. It's getting exciting (slowly).
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: beckhamk on April 15, 2012, 06:49:20 PM
You should have no problems with advantec. We didnt have a roof on for 3 1/2 months and it rained alot.  It had held up perfectly with no issues.  It might get dirty looking, you could stray bleach on it and it will look new again. but never had any issues.  Its awsome stuff.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on April 16, 2012, 06:54:49 PM
Monday Afternoon - April 16th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

First of all, thanks beckhamk for the information. I've decided to also use Advantech as my floor to the loft. I'm sure it'll get wet before the roof goes on...most likely.

Finally finished the interior walls and added the cap plates to the top of them. I also put in my first i-joist, nailed it to the gable end, and then attached i-joist number 2 and sistered studs under it to support it.

You'll notice, in the wall cavity, that only 1 stud under the i-joist supports it to the half-way point of its width, you think that will do or should I use 2 studs at each sistered location?

You'll also notice that I didn't slip and nail a web stiffener/web shim between the i-joist and the main support studs in the cavities for greater connection strength, I'll do that when I get the 1" thick wood. I bought a sheet of expensive 3/4" plywood thinking that it was the thickness that I needed but I'll need 1" wood.

I used 5 x 7 40d ring shank pole barn nails in the 'rim-i-joist' that's against the gable end above the interior walls. That one i-joist will hold the weight of the last 16" of floor and I'm very confident that those huge nails in the top and bottom of the i-joist at each stud location will have no problem holding up. I probably should go out and buy more of those ring shank nails so that I can use them whenever I nail an i-joist.

Here's a picture of one of those 40d nails:

(Pic coming soon)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/4-16-2012-nail.JPG)

Look at this next picture closely, it's the top of my interior walls. I had pictured the i-joist sitting on the top of those 2 wall tops perpendicular to the gable end. Come to find out, those tops would have to have been exactly the same height or that 20' long i-joist would not be level.

Now for some trig: Just for perfect reference, let's say that those 2 tops were sharp points 48" from each other in the exact middle of the build. That leaves 8' of length to each side. Now let's say that one wall is 1/8" (.125) higher than the other. The triangle would be .125 for side (a) and 48" for side (b). The angle of that hypotenuse is 0 degrees, 8 minutes, and 57.15 seconds - round it off to 9 minutes. Now let's find out how far 8' (96") drops. Angle (A) is 9" (9 minutes) and the hypotenuse is 8' long. It dropped 1/4". If it's dropping 1/8" in 4' - it'll drop twice that in 8'. To sum it all up: the height difference of only 1/8 inch between those wall tops cause a 5/8" difference from one end to the other, that's a floor that's not level.

Sorry for all the dumb math, I get carried away with explaining things sometimes. In fact, you might want to check my math if your inclined to do that kind of thing...I remember one time I was wrong.

I wish I would have paid greater attention when it came to getting those walls exactly the same...but I didn't so now I'm going to shim between the bottom of the i-joists and the top of those walls.

One more thing, if you have a good eye - you will notice that I set that first i-joist right on top of those walls and commenced to nailing it everywhere I could with those long ring shank nails. Pretty level huh ... NOT! Those wall tops are not the same height (I'm not telling you how much there off). I'm just going to leave it there, work around it, and shim it.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/4-15-2012-loftjoist3.JPG)

I talked a lot of math above. It all reminded me of the Wizard of Oz Scarecrow math error. Remember when he got his diploma, he said, "The sum of the square roots of any two sides of an Isosceles triangle is equal to the square root of the remaining side. Oh joy, rapture, I've got a brain. How can I ever thank you enough?" When we watched that as kids we thought that he was oh so smart. But wait, what he said was wrong! The Scarecrow states an incorrect version of the Pythagorean theorem. There are two errors. The Pythagorean theorem applies to right triangles, not isosceles. Also the theorem is that the squares of two legs equals the square of the hypotenuse. Properly stated, "The sum of the squares of the two legs of a right triangle is equal to the square of the hypotenuse." Here's the youtube video of him saying it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUCZXn9RZ9s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUCZXn9RZ9s)

Here's a couple of pictures of the i-joist sitting on the stud:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/4-15-2012-loftjoist2.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/4-15-2012-loftjoist1.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on April 18, 2012, 05:43:33 AM
Wednesday Morning - April 18th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Got more work done yesterday, I had enough time to get 2 more i joists in place.

Putting 1 stud under the i joist only goes to about the half-way point of the i joist width, as I mentioned on the above post. So I put osb between the sistered stud and the wall stud in order to send it out to the middle of the width of the i joist, that centered things a little better.

Those i joists are actually floating above the interior wall tops by only about 1/8" so I'm going to put shims under those points and then nail them to the wall tops. Once I get the Advantech flooring on top of those i joists it'll create a strong diaphragm and then those walls will become even more stable.

Just for reference, those i joists cost around $34.00 each.

Here's a few pictures of yesterdays work:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/4-17-2012joists1.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/4-17-2012joists2.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on April 18, 2012, 06:39:43 PM
Hi Al,
I haven't been following, started PT this week, chemistry and a movie have been winning. Who would have known girls half my size and age could be so cruel.  :D. You're dealing with engineered components,,, and you did a good ol boy, those flanges were never checked with a 40d nail I'd bet. That is probably a .225" shank and I think they will have specified a .131.. Either use the nails they specify or, I like your intent, prebore the flange with a bit ~80% of nail diameter wherever you use a large nail.

You need to fireblock between floors. How about cutting the joist support stud 1-1/2" short and put a flat 2x block between studs atop that. It will distribute the load better and do the fireblocking.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on April 18, 2012, 07:18:40 PM
Wednesday Night - April 18th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Hi Don!

Hey, it's great to hear from you again. Your absolutely right about those nails that I used not being in spec. That 0.131 dim. that you mentioned is correct. Those nails that I used were 0.196 in diameter. I don't think those nails, being only around 0.033 larger in radius than specified would hurt anything. They seemed to go in real nice with no splitting around them. BUT, I like your idea about pre-drilling those nail holes to 5/32 first through the i joist flange only (80% of 0.196).

I think I'll give the iLevel people a call tomorrow just to see what they think. They were real nice and answered all of my questions very patiently the last time I called them.

I forgot all about the fire blocking and I think that what you said is a great idea about cutting the joist support studs 1 1/2" short and put the block between. Am I correct in assuming that I should put a fire block between every single stud where there is a loft floor above it? What about the 2 open areas each side of the catwalk, I guess I should just put fire blocking between every single stud throughout the whole build right? I'll google and study more about fire blocking.

Thanks for your posts Don, I hope you'll feel better all the time.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: nysono on April 19, 2012, 05:23:35 AM
I had to put a block between every single stud.....
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on April 21, 2012, 04:18:55 AM
Saturday Morning - April 21st, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Thanks for your post nysono, I'm now going to put blocking between all of my studs also - it sure won't hurt anything and I believe it's the right way to do it...in my case.

I called iLevel and asked them some questions about how I should attach those i joists to my stud cavities using the 'sistered stud' method. They basically concurred with what all has been suggested here many times in the past. They did mention one thing that I haven't heard of before. They said it is wise to put a block between the adjacent stud and the top of the i joist flange for 2 reasons. One, it'll hold the i joist in from pushing away from the attached stud and two, if you push it out about an inch or more you can use it as a nailer when your putting your sub-floor on. Basically the dude at iLevel went right along with what DonP and others have been saying.

Here's a picture of me doing what DonP suggested, using a block as a fire block but also acting as an i joist rest:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/4-20-2012joist1.JPG)

And more pics of i joists:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/4-20-2012joist2.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/4-20-2012joist3.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/4-20-2012joist4.JPG)

This last picture is where I sawed a bunch of i joist fillers. I used 7/16 osb and made them 9 1/4 x 5 1/4 and I use 2 inside each ijoist space.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/4-20-2012joist5.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: duncanshannon on April 21, 2012, 10:30:57 AM
awesome. I cant wait for this part of the project... seems like lots of fun!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on April 22, 2012, 03:59:41 AM
Sunday Morning - April 22st, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Thanks for the comment duncanshannon. I had to think for a second when you said, "...seems like lots of fun!". Sometimes I have to think that to myself when I get out there to work on the build EVERY SINGLE DAY. I say to myself, 'This is fun, this is fun, this is fun...'.

Building a house yourself, by yourself, for the first time, and learning and studying as you go, is likely the most consuming thing a person will ever do...in most cases. I truthfully tell people that I have more time in studying and learning how to build it than I do in actual build time. Eight months ago, I truthfully didn't know the difference between a joist and a rafter - thank you God for countryplans!

Well, yesterday I finished a couple more i joists. I only have 2 more to go for the west end. Then I'll begin to put the i joists up on the east end. On that end there will be no interior walls to crawl up and around on to help me lift them up there. I'm excited about my next load of lumber being the Advantech for the loft sub-floor.

I'm 'starting' to get the hang of putting up the i joist using a block under the lower flange which also creates the fire block. You'll notice that I used a short block for a nailer sistered to the stud and under the blocking on the opposite side of the top i joist flange. I like that idea better than toe nailing.

Here's pics:

(One pic coming soon)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/4-21-2012joist1.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/4-21-2012joist2.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/4-21-2012joist3.JPG)

In this last picture (top view looking down), you'll notice how I used shims under the i joists and on top of the interior walls for more stability.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/4-21-2012joist4.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: hemfir on April 22, 2012, 04:21:14 PM
 [cool] Backwoods BC Canada 1-1/2 story. Al , really appreciate all the effort you and others have contributed to outline everything in detail about your build. I hope to get down that path sometime this year. Still working out issues with the building inspector. My next approach with the inspector will be with a site assembled engineered wood ridge beam, similar to your build.  Thanks again for sharing.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on April 26, 2012, 05:43:05 AM
Thursday Morning - April 26th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Thanks for your comment hemfir, I hope you get everything worked out nicely with that building inspector.

I've been working more on the loft. I got stumped for a little while about how I wanted to attach my catwalk to the other loft sections. I could have used an LVL with hangers but I found out that I can just use my #230 iLevel i joists with hangers, backer boards, and fillers.

I called iLevel and they were once again very kind and patient with me on the phone. They answered all my questions, did calculations, and sent me pdf's of the findings.

Here's a little plan I did in paint that shows what I'm doing with my loft work:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/loft-1.jpg)

Here's a top view of the main loft area. All that's missing is the last i joist that will sit on top of the wall and meet the 3 catwalk i joists perpendicularly:
(Pic coming soon)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/4-22-2012joist8.JPG)

Here's a picture of the i joists at the other loft end, the nook loft. You can see where I used shims under that 2nd i joist. Shims are quickly becoming a tool for me. I know that there wouldn't be shims in the perfect world but oh well, as time goes on hopefully I'll use less of them.
(Pic coming soon)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/4-25-2012joist2.JPG)

And here's a whole shot of the start of the nook loft end:
(Pic coming soon)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/4-25-2012joist1.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on April 26, 2012, 06:03:10 AM
I forgot to add a picture from iLevels specs about i joists connecting to each other perpendicularly:
(Pic coming soon)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/ijoist2ijoist.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Rensmif on April 26, 2012, 07:56:23 AM
AL - I am really enjoy your build and learning a lot from your project.  Your trials and errors have helped us all.

I have been concerned about weather/water damage for you without it having a roof, you mentioned a while back that some of the OSB siding was a lil swollen from rain, I am guessing the advantech is holding up well (please update on how it is holding up BTW).

My question/concern is now that you have installed the loft I-joists (good progress photos BTW), how do you plan on protecting them from water damage until you have your house dryed in.  They are load bearing floors and dont have the protection that Advantech offers and I dont believe they will be nearly as forgiving in dealing with the elements.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on April 26, 2012, 05:11:08 PM
Thursday Late Afternoon - April 26th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Thanks for your comment rensmif, it's great to hear from you and I appreciate your helpfulness and concerns.

That Advantech is holding up really good. The 'very minor' lift-up of just a couple of very thin layers in a couple places don't have me worried. There were a few spots in my floor that weren't perfectly level so the water would stay there and puddle after a rain (a very shallow puddle). In those 2 or 3 places I simply drilled a small hole in the floor so the water would drain, those holes are probably only about 1/4" in diameter. I'm going to cover the Advantech sub-floor with osb (I guess 1/2" or so) after the roof is on. From there, I'll decide what I'll want for my finish floor.

As far as those loft i joist getting wet, your right, I sure don't want them totally soaked and continually rained on. I'm almost done with the loft i joists and then I'll put Advantech on top of them. Then the Advantech will get wet and not the i joists...at least not too wet. Another thing I thought of was that since the osb portion of the i joists are vertical, the rain should run down them and water should not accumulate anywhere near that part of the i joist. Bottom line is: I hope it don't rain too much.

Thanks again Rensmif, now it's time for me to see how many more i joists I can get up before dark. Have a great weekend sir.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on April 27, 2012, 05:26:52 AM
Friday Morning - April 27th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Well, I got in 2 more nook loft i-joists last night. Two more to go there, 1 more on the top of the main loft wall, and then 3 - 12 footers for the catwalk runners that will meet perpendicular to both lofts. Then I'll put a post and beam under the center of the nook loft i joist.

When all that's done, I'll cover it all up with 3/4" Advantech.

I have also made plans to beef up the area under the exact center of the build, the center pier. This area is where that middle ridge beam post will sit on top of, I want total solid support going right into the ground and concrete. I'm going to gang 2x6's together to make a center post that will hold the middle of the ridge beam. That post will be just the same as the 2 end ridge beam support posts.

Remember, my build is a weird type of angle iron pier and beam. The exact middle pier is 4" x 4" x 1/4" galvanized angle iron going 3' into the ground in a hole 3 foot deep by at least 2' square filled with 8 to 10 bags of 80# quikrete. A type of girder is used going down the middle by way of 2 - 2x12's screwed to the vertical angle iron and sitting on horizontal angle iron, everything is braced and welded also. The 2x12 pressure treated joists run perpendicular and on top of that girder with blocking between the joists and then the Advantech on top of all that.

I'm going to screw and weld a small steel platform that will sit right under the Advantech and right under that middle ridge beam post above. I also don't want that middle ridge beam post to just sit on top of the Advantech floor so I'll be slipping a steel plate between the post and the floor, it will be just a little bigger than the footprint of the post.

So to sum things up from top to bottom: I'll have the middle of the ridge beam sitting on the top of the middle ridge beam post, the bottom of the middle ridge beam post will sit on a plate of steel, Advantech under that, and another steel plate screwed and welded to the angle iron below that.

Here's a picture of that exact middle angle iron pier I'm talking about:
(Pic coming soon)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/4-26-2012centerpier3.JPG)

Ok, enough about that middle pier. Here's what has been done with those nook loft i joists:
(Pic coming soon)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/4-26-2012nookjoist2.JPG)
(Pic coming soon)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/4-26-2012nookjoist1.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on April 27, 2012, 09:20:08 PM
Friday Night - April 27th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Worked into the night with a little mag-lite in my mouth while nailing. All of my nook loft i joists are in now. Tomorrow morning I'll put the last i joist on top of the other side interior wall. Then I'll put 3 more i joists perpendicular to the other loft ends along with i joist hangers in order to make the catwalk.

I'm getting excited now about putting the Advantech floor down on all of the loft area and then getting up there to see how it looks and feels. I'm also looking forward to camping out up there all night under the stars.

Wow, to think that all this framing will one day be behind me and I'll be onto other systems...what a thought!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Sassy on April 28, 2012, 12:32:25 AM
It's all coming along nicely!  Hey, get yourself one of those headlights - then you can be hands free - they're less than $5 at Harbor Freight & not much more than that at Lowes etc. 
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on April 28, 2012, 06:06:49 AM
Hi Sassy,

Hey, good hearing from you. I had one of those caps with a clicker that went from high beam to low beam, to both beams. It was cool but I lost it. I keep my mag-lite in my pocket so it's never been lost.

When it begins to get dark I start to finish up on the build. I get cautious about all the noise I make. I think of my neighbors and how they must want peace and quit some times. Man, when your pounding with a hammer, turning on and off the circular and table saw, and throwing wood around it gets kind of loud and I'm pretty sure it resonates throughout my area pretty far. People around me have been hearing me build now for many months so I try to create some peace and quiet once and awhile.

Well, it's almost day break right now so I'm going to stop creating peace and quiet pretty soon!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: rick91351 on April 28, 2012, 09:23:56 AM
Quote from: ajbremer on April 28, 2012, 06:06:49 AM
........................snip
Well, it's almost day break right now so I'm going to stop creating peace and quit pretty soon!

That is a good one.............. rofl
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: jackel440 on April 28, 2012, 08:50:10 PM
I can't believe how amazing it is that your rv is almost identical to the one that my cabin is replacing. d*

I wanted to ask if you know that there needs to be a taper to the sill under the window so that any moisture or water leaks can then leak out the bottom of the window and down your house wrap.I applied a tapered shim to my sill ,and then applied my 4" wide window sealing tape.That way there is a damn that keeps the any water from penetrating into the interior.
I think you and your wife are dong a great job!
Keep up the good work [cool]
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on April 28, 2012, 09:10:26 PM
Saturday Night - April 28th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Got the nook loft i joists in and supported by a post and beam. Shims are between the beam and i joists. A 2x6 is under the end of the beam holding it up and it is nailed to the wall, actually nailed to the east ridge beam post. Yes, it may be a weird thing once the inside wall boards are put on but I'll make it look nice.

Also, I trapped the bottom of the post by nailing strips of osb around it. The post isn't actually nailed to the floor yet. I think I'm going to Lowes to look for some kind of Strong-Tie attachment that is made for such a configuration...any ideas on that?

Here are the pictures: (Pics coming soon)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/4-28-2012nookjoists1.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/4-28-2012nookjoists2.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/4-28-2012nookjoists3.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: dablack on April 29, 2012, 08:07:29 PM
Where, the three middle Ijoists hit the wall, it looks like they are floating.  It doesn't look like there is anything under them?  Are they just nailed to the outside OSB?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on April 29, 2012, 11:30:42 PM
Hi dablack,

Thank you for checking out my posts.

None of the Ijoists are floating, they are nailed to filler blocks which in turn are nailed to sistered studs in the wall cavities. This happens on each end of every Ijoist.

A horizontal block goes between wall cavity studs and sits on top of the sistered stud. I apply a vertical block under the horizontal block just for nailing purposes on the end opposite the Ijoist. I nail the Ijoist to the stud with 4 or 5 10d nails through its osb portion. Then I put 2 nails at a 45 degree on the bottom outward Ijoist flange and also another nail at 45 degrees through the top flange and into the stud.

If you look back through a few of my past posts, you'll see some good pictures of how I do this. In fact, I'll include one here:
(Pic coming soon)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/4-25-2012joist2.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: dablack on April 30, 2012, 03:47:27 PM
Ok Great!  Just wanted to make sure.  The ones above the window appear to be floating.  It must be the camera angle. 
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 04, 2012, 02:01:42 PM
Friday Afternoon - May 4th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Got ridgebeam post #3 up today, final and last post that is right in the center of the build.

Now I'll run an i joist beside it to begin the catwalk i joist runners. This weekend I hope to put in all the 3/4" flooring up there on the loft.
(5 pics coming soon)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-04-20123rdpost1.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-04-20123rdpost2.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-04-20123rdpost3.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-04-20123rdpost4.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-04-20123rdpost6.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 07, 2012, 07:20:28 AM
Monday Morning - May 7th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Started to lay my floor down up on the loft. I have all of the I joists installed, even the 3 I joists that I'm using as runners for the catwalk. They're connected by way of I joist hangers using backing and filler blocks.

I'm going to make sure that I lay my sub-floor about 18" past the point of perpendicularity at both ends of the catwalk. There would be a weak hinge point if I laid the sub-floor with the ends meeting up with the main lofts sub-floor. Here's an illustration showing the catwalk in the middle and how the floor sheets meet up with one another:
(Pic coming soon)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/catwalkjoists.JPG)

I had to be sure I had that first I joist straight, perpendicular, and up against that middle ridge beam post so I made a little device that would let me slip my I joist in and slide it back and forth. That way, I could easily get it right where I wanted it without having to make a long string-line across the whole build. What I mean by that is that I could have put a string-line on each end ridge beam post and then marked that line on the 2 outer loft I joists and go from there. BUT, that would have required me to walk the I joists up top with string and I didn't want to do that.

Here's a picture of the first catwalk I joist being positioned by way of that slider thingy I made:
(Pic coming soon)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-06-2012ijoistslider.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on May 07, 2012, 02:33:08 PM
Maybe I don't understand the way the sheets are laid out?  I'm thinking I think I would have tried very hard to overlap the joint between the loft areas and the catwalk with a full sheet and then spread out across each loft from there.

If you're not that far along consider it... otherwise it's a note for readers and future projects.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ColchesterCabin on May 07, 2012, 03:05:46 PM
Funny MountainDon you woud say that as I was looking at his loft picture with the 4x8 sheets of ply and was wondering if it would be best to overlap the loft and catwalk. Good to know as mu build progresses.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: suburbancowboy on May 07, 2012, 05:37:45 PM
Have you thought of using 2X6 T&G on the second floor?  It then becomes the ceiling for the first floor.  That is what I did in mine.  Here is what it looks like on my catwalk.

(https://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww170/bret7763/100_0592.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 07, 2012, 05:59:22 PM
Monday Night - May 7th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Thank you suburbancowboy, your catwalk looks really strong! Nice to hear from you too ColchesterCabin. Also, thank you again Mountain Don.

I do show that I'm overlapping the joint between the loft and the catwalk in my drawing, it's not 1/2 a sheet though. Instead of overlapping the joint by 48" (1/2 a sheet), I overlapped the first joint only 18". The other end I'll do 1/2 a sheet.

I'm going to be adding bracing under each side of the catwalk edges.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on May 07, 2012, 06:39:24 PM
OK, it becomes more clear....

I erased the lines that made it confusing (to me).

(https://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q305/djmbucket/construction%20oddnends/catwalkjoists-m.jpg)

Is this what you mean?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 07, 2012, 06:47:32 PM
Hi Don,

Yes, exactly - I should have drawn it more clearly - in a rush to get to work - got switched to the night shift so I now work hard all morning and then go to work. Thank you Don.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ColchesterCabin on May 08, 2012, 07:05:56 AM
If your catwalk or bridge whichever your calling it is lets say 8 feet long and appears to be roughly 4ft wide why couldn't you split the catwalk boarding in half with your 4x8 sheets. I am thinking that the more even overlap between the two surfaces the strongerthe joint between the two will be IMO anyways.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 08, 2012, 07:16:47 AM
Thanks ColchesterCabin, great to hear from you again.

My catwalk is more like 11 feet long and your correct, it is 4 feet wide.

Yes, the perfect scenario is to evenly split sheet widths at perpendicular joints. I'm going to add bracing under each of catwalk ends for extra support.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ColchesterCabin on May 08, 2012, 08:54:52 AM
I am assuming you are using a laminated beam in some capacities between your outside walls then spanning that difference with your joists and catwalk? Which means you should double a 2x8  or tripple a 2x6 for the outside supports to your catwalk based on 11 ft span then if you joists perpendicular to that you probably wouldn't need extra barcing.

(https://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p566/ColchesterCabin/catwalkjoists.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 09, 2012, 09:43:58 AM
Wednesday Morning - May 9th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Thanks ColchesterCabin, that's good advice.

The way I've decided to go is just using the I joists that I've always used throughout the loft - TJI's #230 (11-7/8" x 2-1/4"), no LVL's, no 2x8's, and no 2x6's. Just I joists held up by hangers using filler and backing blocks. I wanted to be sure that this was ok so a few weeks ago I talked extensively on the phone with the I-level representative. I emailed him a drawing and then he did the calcs and sent me the pdf of the findings. I could have went with the calculated smaller #230 I joist (9-1/2") but I already have the larger (11-7/8") ones.

Because of the questions just now, I called and spoke with the rep again today. I just got off the phone with the representative over at I-level and I told him everything I did. They keep the pdf's and he assured me that all is correct.

Just a side note: It feels real stiff and nice when I walk on the catwalk up there!

Here's the pdf calculations:
(File hopefully coming soon: Link is inoperable)
http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/catwalk_calcs.pdf (http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/catwalk_calcs.pdf)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ColchesterCabin on May 09, 2012, 12:23:31 PM
Cool Beans AJ.... Just wanted to double check if not for you but for me as I am using a comparible layout for my Cabin. How do you find the engineered I beans as opposed to construction grade 2x lumber, cost wise?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: JavaMan on May 09, 2012, 12:26:37 PM
Quote from: ColchesterCabin on May 09, 2012, 12:23:31 PM
Cool Beans AJ.... Just wanted to double check if not for you but for me as I am using a comparible layout for my Cabin. How do you find the engineered I beans as opposed to construction grade 2x lumber, cost wise?
I'd like to know this, also ... once the shed is complete, I start building m cabin.  It would be nice to have some idea what the TJI's cost... if they are cost effective.

Yours is looking good!  Wish I was that far along  :(
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 09, 2012, 01:42:01 PM
Hey you guys, I really appreciate the posts.

I guess the only real meaning of 'cost effective' is in the wallet of the beholder!

The 20' long I joist by the ILevel company (#230's) cost me $38 each, then add tax. If I could at all swing it, I would always choose engineered lumber over 2x's when they are feasible to use in a situation. They are strong but what I like most is, they are all exactly the same size. You can buy 2x's from different places and the width can differ and mess ya up.

If I could go back in time I would have used those I joists instead of 2X joists in my main floor. A great thing also is that they are much wider than a 2x. A 2x is 1-1/2" but the I joists that I'm using are 2-5/16" wide. Much easier to hit when your nailing your floor on. And another great thing is that they are lighter.

Go to www.ilevel.com to find out more information about different types of engineered lumber, they hava a lot of technical guides and when you call them they are very patient and helpful.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on May 09, 2012, 10:13:04 PM
Those are the plusses, the negatives are fire and water... get a lid on that box Al!  ;D
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 09, 2012, 11:29:26 PM
Thanks Don,

I've known about the water part but never really thought about the fire.

Here's a pic of underneath the catwalk: (Pics coming soon)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-09-2012loft4.JPG)

And a few other pics of what I have done with the loft 3/4" flooring so far. Disregard that
board going across the middle, I put it there for extra bracing between the long walls:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-09-2012loft3.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-09-2012loft2.JPG)

In this last pic, you'll notice how the middle ridge beam post will help support the catwalk once I
nail it in place.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-09-2012loft1.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on May 09, 2012, 11:45:04 PM
Engineered products and house fires are a bad mix. Trusses and i-joists burn up and collapse much quicker than solid 2x construction.  That is one reason sometimes quoted for the inclusion of fire suppression sprinkler systems in residences.   :-\
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on May 10, 2012, 07:26:17 AM
I thought about saying exactly the same thing MD and backed off, so let me modify that if you don't mind. lightweight engineered products do not perform well in fire, a small piece of wood burns faster than a big one. A big piece of wood, think heavy timbers, glulams and even to a large extent lvls, char and are then protected. I rented a shop one time that had already burned once. it was old mill type heavy timber construction and they determined there was still enough strength left.

It is a decision to think through. I know one firefighter who made it out on the carpet when the tji's collapsed under him, damn lucky. I know of another who dropped into the basement and didn't make it out. Never leave the underside exposed, protect it... I don't leave any structural 2x exposed for that matter. Open web floor joists form a horizontal chimney underfloor, cordon these off with type X or 3/4 ply to form smaller areas under there so fire cannot rip through. Don't think about the structure so much, I can build another, what you're really doing is buying the folks inside and those rushing in exit or rescue time. Not fun thoughts I know but its the things that need to be thought about when building well.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 10, 2012, 08:04:46 AM
Thursday Morning - May 10th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Wow, that is great fire information. I never thought that building for fire safety was so involved. I will now take the extra measures in order to have a safe build.

Are there different types of drywall, some fire resistant and some not? I could use them for the ceiling under the loft and catwalk.

Thanks again for letting me know that awesome information.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ColchesterCabin on May 10, 2012, 08:26:54 AM
Being a volunteer Firefighter for 13 years the fire exposure never crossed my mind. But I have been there and both MD and Don_P have a point. But overall AJ the build is looking awesome I can't wait to get my build in full swing. Waiting on the rain to dry up a bit to pour concrete and I can't do that on a weekend. Hopefully pour concrete next week sometime.

Keep the pictures and updates coming...
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on May 10, 2012, 08:59:59 AM
Right Don_P, I was thinking of roof and floor trusses mainly as well as TJI with their webs of OSB. Floor trusses look like really great kindling arranged with lots of air space for oxygen.


AJ, Type X  gypsum board is fire rated and required for furnace rooms for example. It's 5/8" and heavy.

Our house has it applied in the roof trusses between the garage and the main structure. The rooms I've added are also sheeted off in the trusses.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 10, 2012, 06:15:59 PM
Thursday Night - May 10th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Had to get fast internet in my rural area. I might hit my head on this thing once
the front porch is on! No, I'll get it moved higher by then.
(Pic coming soon)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-10-2012sat1.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: JavaMan on May 10, 2012, 06:18:54 PM
They let you self install???  Wow.

Last time I had to go with Satellite internet (ok, the only time I had to), they wouldn't let me self install.

How much is that running these days?  It wasn't cheap about 5 years ago when I had it.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on May 10, 2012, 06:32:18 PM
Al I would be interested in the Monthly fee's as well.  They advertise free installation but don't elaborate on the fees. 
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: JavaMan on May 10, 2012, 06:57:39 PM
Well, the site I was on said 39.95/month ... but didn't say how much data you're allowed for that price.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 10, 2012, 07:33:21 PM
Thanks JavaMan and Redoverfarm,

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that I self installed this satellite.

This service is not cheap but I didn't care, I really need internet (fast speed).

This is from www.hughesnet.com and basically it's about $80 a month plus $10 for the equipment lease. The
$39.95 plan was the low plan, I went up from there. If I wanted to buy the equipment I would have had to
pay something like $350. I had to first give them $40 before they would come out and install it. It only
took the guy about an hour to install it. Of course this is a 2 year contract thingy also.

The cable for it runs under the house, on the ground, and then up into the 12x32 cabin where its modem is. From
there, the ethernet cable can directly be input into a computer (only one cable spot on modem) or it can go into a
wireless router and spread from there.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on May 10, 2012, 10:14:23 PM
Don't mean to drag us backwards but this was posted on another forum today on floors and fire, good read;
http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/offerings/industries/buildingmaterials/fire/fireservice/basementfires/
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 10, 2012, 10:41:06 PM
Thank you Don, yes that was a good read. I'm going to look at some of those videos later too.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 11, 2012, 08:25:25 PM
Friday Night - May 11th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Well, only got a few more sheets down on the loft but now there's only a couple more to go and I'm done with all of the loft sub-floor.

I really want to get my ridge beam up there now but I was concerned about it (them) getting wet and rained upon once there up. If I put them up there now, it'll still be 2 or 3 more weeks till the rafters and sheeting begin to go up there. So, what I did was I called the Microlam beam iLevel tech. guy and asked him if it would be a problem if the beams got wet in the rain up there. He's like, '...no problem, as long as they can dry.' Some of those beams are sold with a coat of protection over them in certain areas but I'm not sure if mine have it. Even without that coating it would be ok.

I also asked him if it would be wise to paint some kind of coating or weather sealant on the beams once there up there and he said it wouldn't hurt.

Therefore it looks like I'm going to give it a shot and get my beams up. I'll use some extra bracing on them also, at least until I get my rafters up.

I'll get more pictures up tomorrow, thanks everyone!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on May 12, 2012, 07:57:20 AM
Basically as long as they don't cup they are fine, the coating has a sheen where the uncoated are dull. Water getting down between them and cooking is what'll make them cup into a butterfly shape. Pick up a roll of self stick window flashing tape and run it along the top and it'll be good to go.

Now, I have not seen a good bracing job on a roof here yet, we've been lucky no one has been hit by a big wind while under construction. LONG diagonals forming an X or X's from ridge to very secure blocking on the floor once the ridge is up. Pin the crossing of the X. Make sure those braces do not interfere with rafter layout locations. The bracing stays up until the roof is sheathed. The braces can be spliced to make them long enough but lap the splices LONG.

Install a taught string along the middle of the top or bottom of the ridge and consult it often. Install rafters in opposing pairs or no more than a few per side befor balancing the other side. The goal here is don't build a snake into the ridge.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 12, 2012, 09:43:16 AM
Saturday Morning - May 12th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Thanks Don,

That's great information but I want to be sure I understand your bracing information completely. I made a picture of the X bracing, at least the way I understood it (I can be totally wrong). Please let me know if I'm on the right track.

Here:
(Pic coming soon)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/beambrace.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on May 12, 2012, 06:21:45 PM
No, 90 degrees the other way, in line with the ridge. The rafters brace it great that way but the whole thing, ridge and all is unbraced in the direction of the ridge axis till it gets sheathed.
I've got the ridgeposts braced here, we've just set the ridge.  The tall post was plumbed not with a 4' level but by calculating the length of the brace, the third side of a right triangle. I made marks and nailed it when we were on our marks. Then the short little 4' level agreed, but at that length of post a 4' level is way to agreeable, you can be off inches at the top if you're not careful plumbing something tall.
(https://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x109/windyhilll/26.jpg)
After lunch that day we tore down the lifting tower in the middle. As we did that we moved one of the braces from it in and tied it to the ridge. You can pretty much see the X that formed. We banged our heads on that upstairs till we got it sheathed. And all my bracing here is too low, it should really be up just under or on the ridge, kill any post flex.

With yours I'd probably run 2x4's horizontally from post to post to post just below the pockets up top, set at correct ridge length. Just under those nail diagonal braces in the line of the ridge. Where the braces from posts cross each other pin them together and use a double stacked well nailed block at the floor to tie the bottom of the brace to. All of this is on one side of the posts if you are hoisting by hand, the ridge will ride on the clean side of the posts as you lift. When it is down in pocket nail the pocket, the post, to the ridge on both sides well and you've got it. What prompted the comment mostly is someone posted a pic recently of a couple of guys up top on a really poorly braced roof, you don't want a domino while you're up there.

We got hit by big winds on a job in the Black Hills. Tornados had been hitting in WY and were passing over, the hills wouldn't let them reform. We braced till it was scary to be up, I got the side wings tied well but didn't have time to safely get the main pitch. And then we sat in the pasture watching that big naked roof frame vibrate. The 2x12 rafters were shaking so hard they were almost touching. We were talking about how to pick up the pieces and figuring that we had enough to reorder materials and would get through this. That is when you're really counting on a very few nails.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 13, 2012, 11:09:06 AM
Sunday Morning - May 13th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Thank you Don_P. I'm going to have to reread what you last said because I want to be sure I totally understand the instructions.

The first order of business is for me to get those 2 beams up on the loft so they can be lifted up and into those ridge beam posts. I had to scratch my head for a little bit in order to come up with a method to lift the beams up and into the loft, I did it!

Yesterday I got a lot done, finished the loft floor and got one of those beams up in the loft in order to get it up in the posts. Here's the finished floor of the loft with Robin peaking out from the middle post. Oh ya, yes I did screw and glue those floor sheets down.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-12-2012beamup1.JPG)

Now in this next picture, you'll see how I moved those 30 foot long Microlam 1.9 iLevel beams around. I used old 'empty' propane bottles and rolled it along.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-12-2012beamup12.JPG)

Then when I got the first beam behind the house I lined it up and lifted each end by hand, one end on top of a scaffold ladder and the other end on top of a propane bottle. Well, every time I got a load of wood delivered from the lumber yard, they would wrap the boards with these really nice strong nylon straps and I always saved them thinking I would definitely use them later. They are not really as wide as I would like them but they are strong.

I attached those straps to each end of the board and tied it around a small piece of wood. Then I threw the piece of wood up and over the top of the wall and onto the loft. Then I got up on the loft and nailed 2 small pieces of wood across the top plate and then one piece of wood crosswise and on top of them, I did that at each end.  Then I simply wrapped the strap across my hand and pulled up the beam a little at a time. It wasn't easy! The weight of it almost was more than my feet could hold me. After I would pull one end up a few feet I would wrap the strap around the little boards and then go and do the same thing to the other side till finally the beam was all the way at the top. When the beam made it to the top, I grabbed one end and lifted it up and over the wall.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-12-2012beamup10.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-12-2012beamup9.JPG)

When the beam got near the top it became very hard to pull up. I could pull it up but I couldn't get myself back to the wall and wrap the strap around the board without it going back down. At that point I had my wife kneel by the wall with a c-clamp and when I had the beam at the very top she would clamp the strap to the board so I could walk back to it and wrap the excess strap around the board.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-12-2012beamup5.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-12-2012beamup8.JPG)

And then I was a happy camper!

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-12-2012beamup2.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on May 13, 2012, 02:00:29 PM
There ya go  [cool]. The biggest part of construction is outsmarting large uncooperative inanimate objects  ;D On the floor we use pieces of pipe real often. Never thought about the propane tank trick outside, Thanks! We call it the egyptian log rolling technique and are always jealous of their ready supply of isrealites to bring that back log around.

(https://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x109/windyhilll/Xbeamup12.jpg)
I was making it too hard with a word picture, imagine the front wall isn't there and the braces are nailed to the posts or something solid down low. The red lines form the temporary truss I'm describing. Once the roof is sheathed the plywood does the same job and you can take these down.

(https://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x109/windyhilll/Xbeamupbraced.jpg)
Then install the blue post braces back to the wall to hold the posts vertical in that direction during the lift. You can remove these as the rafters replace them.

Now you are ready to lift. If you have healthy friends I've walked these up a ladder and set them fast, spotters have catch ropes up and over the top horizontal brace. That is quick but not very safe, the worst part is the up and into pocket.  Remember to lay a big scrap of 2x12 or similar across several joists down under your lifting tower legs if you do it that way to avoid punching through the floor. Nothing more embarrassing than a hole in the floor and a log in the basement... or so I've been told  :D
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 14, 2012, 09:28:08 AM
Monday Morning - May 14th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Got a lot done yesterday. Got both beams up on top of the loft and one almost to the top.

I made what I call 'beam risers', just little boxes - some 4 foot high and others 2 foot high. I nailed these (temporarily) to the edge of the ridge beam posts for the beam to rest on. Then I lifted the beam up to the top of these risers. Once I had the beam on the first risers I then added more that were 2 feet higher and then lifted the beam on top of them. I was going to continue doing this for the first beam all the way till up, over, and in but then realized that it would make good scaffolding to get the 2nd beam up. I do understand that the beam is to weak laying flat like that for me to walk on. I'm just going to mess around with them at the stable riser positions.

I temporarily nailed the beam laying flat to the risers using 2 nails each. Today I'm going to 'X' brace and do the bracing methods that Don_P described before I hoist-up the 2nd beam to the top.

Ok, here's that 2nd beam lifted to the top of the wall by using those straps. From here I simply grabbed one end and lifted it up and onto the top of the wall.
(Pic coming soon)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-13-2012beam2up.JPG)

Now the first beam has begun to be lifted onto the ladder and into the ready position. Now it's time to build my so called 'risers' and get them up there too.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-13-2012beam7.JPG)

I first built 3 - 4 foot risers (1 extra) and 1 - 5' 3" riser for the middle post.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-13-2012beamrisers.JPG)

Next I built 2 foot risers to set the 1st beam on them and those first risers.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-13-2012beamrisers2.JPG)

Now the first beam is up on those risers. You'll also notice those long aluminum tubes that I have up there at the very top. I'm just using them as a safety measure to tie straps to the beam, in case it falls while I'm lifting it. Those tubes were an old part of the top of a chain link fence, their 15 - 18 feet long. They are weak but they'll work at the very end near the posts.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-13-2012beam1up.JPG)

And at the end of the day I have my 2nd beam ready. Today is bracing day!

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-13-2012end2.JPG)

Oh ya, here's a picture of the beginning of the 2nd beam lift. You also get a view of the first beam up in its scaffolding position:
(Pic coming soon)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-13-2012beam2low.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 14, 2012, 07:18:21 PM
Monday Night - May 14th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Worked a lot on bracing today. Did the 'X' bracing and rafter type bracing to the posts as suggested.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-14-2012beam1.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-14-2012beam3.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ColchesterCabin on May 14, 2012, 07:24:34 PM
Looks good i like the way to are getting the ridge beams up in place.... very creative. Just think a little down hill once they are set.... (kind of but not really)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 15, 2012, 02:10:51 PM
Tuesday Afternoon - May 15th, 2012 - Mid-Oklahoma

Today I realized that it was very important for me to be sure that the weight of the middle ridge beam post was carried all the way down to the concrete of the angle-iron pier. It wasn't braced good enough for me because I could see daylight between the bottom of the floor and the joist closest to the post.

So what I did was I placed a piece of angle iron 90 degrees to the middle pier, pre-drilled it, and screwed it. Then I added a gusset to the right of it for extra support. Now I feel way better because all the weight of that middle pier is now taken right down to the ground.

Ok, in this first picture I just set the angle-iron into position before I used a board to jack it up with some pressure.
(Pic coming soon)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-15-2012midpierbrace1.JPG)

Then I jacked it all up with a board and drilled and screwed from there. In the last picture you'll see where I placed another piece of angle-iron to act as a gusset. Now I feel much better.
(Pic coming soon)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-15-2012midpierbrace2.JPG)

All done! Now I'll get the welder over here soon to weld these together as one.
(Pic coming soon)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-15-2012midpierbrace6.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: mgramann on May 15, 2012, 03:16:00 PM
That pier isn't galvanized, is it?  It's hard to tell from the picture.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 15, 2012, 06:15:09 PM
Hi mgramann

I believe that particular pier is galvanized. My welder has welded on my other angle-irons before. Some of my angle-iron is galvanized and some not.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: mgramann on May 16, 2012, 07:30:04 AM
It's not so much the welder that will care, but please be sure you have significant air movement nearby, and a mask of some type.  When galvanized steel is heated up to welding temperature, it releases toxic fumes, which causes heavy metal poisoning.  Setup a fan close to your work to blow the fumes away from you.  You don't want to breathe in all that zinc/lead/other chemicals!

Edit-this is what can happen...http://www.anvilfire.com/iForge/tutor.php?lesson=safety3/demo (//www.anvilfire.com/iForge/tutor.php?lesson=safety3/demo)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on May 16, 2012, 08:20:31 AM
Not to mention but the weld is affected as well.  I have used a lot of galvanized pieces I accumulated (previous guardrail components) and most like to grind the galvanized surface to be welded first. 
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 16, 2012, 10:39:47 AM
Wednesday Morning - May 16th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Hey, thank you guys for the suggestions and comments about welding that galvanized angle iron of mine. I've been over this same 'toxic' issue before in much earlier posts when my welder friend came over and welded all of those angle iron braces to my galvanized angle iron piers. He did what appears to be a good job but he did it outside (of course) and in semi windy weather as I recall.

I'm not to worried about having to weld that gusset brace that I added under the middle post. I'm sure that the metal screws alone have a good enough combined shear strength to help withhold that middle ridge beam post.

Ok, I've got a little story to tell. As you've seen in recent posts, I have both ridge beams up on top. One is up and temporarily nailed to those risers that I made and the other one is on the loft floor. Well, just before I went to work yesterday and after I made that gusset middle post brace, I wrapped those straps around that ridge beam that I have laying on the loft floor so that it could be lifted up little by little.

Well, my neighbor does concrete work and construction and has a small crew. He's only been around here 4 or 5 times since I've been here. One time he came by with a nail gun and a large box of nails and told me I could borrow it for as long as I need it.

I tried the nail gun but found it too cumbersome and too fast. The nail gun didn't give me no time to think. I could just lay a bunch of stuff out and bang, bang, bang, bang, with the nail gun and it's done. Then I find out I laid it out wrong or something like that. Using a hammer gives me time to think about what I'm doing and if I'm doing it right. It's hard to explain totally, I just like using a hammer. I guess if I was a professional and house building for a living, AND knew what I was doing, then the nail gun would be used all the time.

Got off track there about the nail gun but getting back to my neighbor. Well, he came by after I went to work yesterday and looked at the build. He told my wife that he might be by in the morning to help lift those beams in place. I didn't think nothing of it. Well, I woke up at daybreak and as I was walking outside - here comes my neighbor with 2 of his helpers. We all got the first ridge beam up and in, they'll be over later this afternoon to get the other one in...YES!

I'm glad I put those straps around the beam on the loft floor at both ends and in the middle because when all those guys came over, they were kind of in a hurry to get off to the days work. I mentioned the straps and how I used them. Well, we all lifted that beam up on top of the other beam using those straps. SO, I'm glad I had those straps in the ready position when they came over. It all only took them about 1/2 an hour and then they were gone. I got a pretty good video of them lifting the first beam into position, I'll get it up on here as soon as I can.

One more thing, man, I'm glad I took Don_P's advice right away and got that 'X' bracing and other bracing up. It held really well with 3 men up there moving around and lifting the beam. Later this afternoon the other beam will go up...stay tuned!

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-16-2012beamup1.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-16-2012beamup2.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-16-2012beamup3.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-16-2012beamup4.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-16-2012beamup5.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-16-2012beamup6.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-16-2012beamup7.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-16-2012beamup8.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: archimedes on May 16, 2012, 10:56:16 AM
Thank goodness for neighbors.  I was worried about you and the Mrs. trying to lift that ridge beam into place.  Whew!

Great progress.    d* d*
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 16, 2012, 11:33:50 AM
Your right sir, thank you!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 16, 2012, 05:50:37 PM
Wednesday Afternoon - May 16th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Ok, now that my ridge beam work is nearly complete I'll be ordering all of my rafters tomorrow and putting them up by this weekend.

I know I've said I was going with 2 x 12's for rafters but I'm sure I can get away with using the more common 2 x 8's. I realize that I'll have a much lower R factor but that's ok with me. Plus, I'll be able to handle them much easier on my own up there that high and they are twice as cheap too.

Now, I have an old 2x8x32 foot long board laying around that I could use as my first test rafter. I've measured and I'll be able to get away with using 16 footers, they'll  give me just about a foot of roof overhang. I have books showing me how I should do my birds mouth cut and also the 45 degree cut up there at the beam. The 45 degree cut at the top seems easy enough but I think I've seen a few different methods used for the birds mouth cut at the top of the walls.

If everything is perfect up there, then isn't it true that all rafters could be cut the same and they'll go anywhere and on either side? Also, I know I have to spring for those hangers at the top and bottom. Are they pretty standard, can I get them at Lowes? I'm going 24" o/c so that means 32 rafters and 64 hangers/clips. I priced a 2x8x16' board today and they cost $10.36 x 32 = $331.52. I'll also be putting up barge rafters at both ends so I guess I need to add 4 more of those boards and other boards to go crosswise at the ends.

I know we've gone over a lot of these issues in past posts but it's been awhile. I'll take the time soon to go back many posts and reread to see what I find. In the mean time, the biggest thing on my mind now is to get the rafters, hangers, and clips, and start to get'em up! Any help at all in that area will be greatly appreciated.

Thank you so much! I know I wouldn't be no where near where I am today in my build if it wasn't for this countryplan forum, I brag about it all the time to people but most just go about their build and do it the way they think is correct - without getting the opinions, facts, and calculations of others.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: JavaMan on May 16, 2012, 06:21:37 PM
Best explanation I ever read about how to layout the rafter cuts, etc... was posted by John here:

http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=8835.msg135294#msg135294 (http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=8835.msg135294#msg135294)

Helped me understand it tremendously
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on May 16, 2012, 11:32:42 PM
In regular fiberglass you're limiting yourself to R-19... which is what my house started with. We went back over the inside with foam and osb then T&G.

You just asked a question that says we have a problem. The ridge height has been set, you shouldn't be able to change rafter depths at this point if a certain set of angles is desired. Let's see what you've got. You'll need; horizontal width of building at each gable end, outside of osb to outside of osb. Height at each end of top of top plate to top of ridge.

That center pier is taking serious load ~ 5/8 of the ridge load is carried by that pier, each end supports ~3/16 of the beam load. Here is the obsession, identify the weak link, calculate load, prove resistance. If you get it right, life is boring.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 17, 2012, 09:19:52 AM
Thanks Don_P,

You said:

"You just asked a question that says we have a problem. The ridge height has been set, you shouldn't be able to change rafter depths at this point if a certain set of angles is desired."

That 'certain set of angles' is ok with me to change. If my roof is not exactly a 12:12 pitch but a little less because of going with 2x8's instead of 2x12's then that's ok with me.

I was going to put two 2x's on top of the ridge beam if using 2x12's because that angle cut would be 15-3/4" long. BUT, using 2x8's that angle cut at the ridge top will now be 10-1/16", full contact with each side of the ridge beam that is 11-7/8" wide, and that is without using those two 2x's. Yes, that roof angle would drop but very little bit. There's 5-1/16" difference in rafter drop because of using 2x8's. That means that the roof pitch is now at an angle of ~43.5 degrees instead of 45 degrees. (A 12:12 pitch is a 45 degree hypotenuse).

Also, as far as the middle ridge beam post holding 5/8's of the ridge load, that is all calculated. I had those calculations done with that iLevel software by the iLevel technician. He did the calcs based on using 2x12's for rafters. Going with the 2x8's will now make the roof lighter.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 18, 2012, 11:54:48 PM
Friday Night - May 18th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Got both ridge beams up and into their yokes now. I have good videos and pics of the process but haven't had a good connection and time yet, I will post them soon.

Question about using hangers up their at the ridge with the 2x8 rafters. Can I use the straight 90 degree hangers even though the rafters are at such an angle? Those kind are less than a buck each but the real nice angled hangers are $8 to $9 each.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on May 19, 2012, 06:19:03 AM
I've used them at low slopes, but even there it is outside of it's intended use. The sloped hanger is correct but as you've found, quite expensive. A large framing angle is a compromise that I've used... after calculating load and determining its' adequacy.

Off the top I believe you were 20 psf LL + 10 psf DL, 30psf total. Each rafter spans 10' horizontally and is supported by a ridgeBEAM at one end and the wall at the other. The rafter connection at the ridge is supporting half of that 10', or 5' of the rafter span.  I think you are setting them on 2' centers...2x5= 10square feet x 30 lbs per square foot= 300 lbs. Assuming I just spouted the correct variables, you're looking for a connection capable of safely supporting 300 lbs.

This can be achieved several ways. I like to toenail them to set and then use 16 guage L90's on one side. The short leg with 16 sinkers (.148x3.25) into the LVL, the long leg onto the rafter with 10d joist hanger nails (they often have 8d and 10d hanger nails side by side in the bin, the larger diameter ones, there is a 10 embossed in the head.)
http://strongtie.com/products/connectors/L-LS-GA.asp.

That is alot of nails in the LVL's and it is easy to start bending them and get frustrated. I buy 1/8" bits by the 10 pack and if the wrists aren't winning you can predrill the holes into the lvl with them at no reduction in capacity. Smeared, bent over or damaged heads have no capacity, hangers must be installed in a workmanlike manner to develop rated capacity. That was a lecture, I see frustration in alot of hanger attachments. Cuts are nice and full bearing, wood is unsplit, attachments are picture worthy.

Al, I'm going to rant again on your thread, has nothing to do with you, I'm just ranting at the wind.
I went to visit a job I turned over yesterday. I had built the house, this was a smaller equipment barn. The guys went off the reservation planswise and aren't up to the structural changes they made. They were not straight with me on what they were doing. I'm there enjoying the hosptitality of my former clients looking at the new barn. When I was going down a couple of weeks ago it was this doc that I called on a Sunday afternoon, and he called it right, not to put too fine a point on it, he probably kept an old mule out of the glue factory. The PA that missed it, I think was pushing incompetent hard. I made real close to that comment to a couple of docs and sensed a biting of the tongue. I like these folks dearly, I was surrounded by 4 generations of the family and there I sat biting my tongue thinking "it'll probably be allright".
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 19, 2012, 06:56:10 PM
Saturday Night - May 19th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Videos of the beams going up:

First Beam with 3 neighbors lifting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-vk7dWF3I8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-vk7dWF3I8)

2nd Beam with me on the left and my neighbor on the right:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNsZQu14fcg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNsZQu14fcg)

More videos and pictures to come. Thanks Don_P for last post, I need to study it more.

Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ColchesterCabin on May 20, 2012, 05:40:07 AM
great videos and the others you have on youtube also pretty informative. Nice music in the background as well, how did you pull that one off?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 20, 2012, 08:02:53 PM
5-20-2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Ok, I put up my first rafter today...kinda.

I sure need help! I think I'm on the right track and may be very close to being ok with my cuts, the birdsmouth being the hardest.

I've read in the number one framing book mentioned here, that the depth of that birds mouth cut should be no more than 1/3rd of the rafter depth at the outside building line. Am I correct in thinking that the steeper the pitch of roof, the less that level birds mouth cut will be, the less surface area covered on the top of the wall plate?

With my pitch being very close to a 12:12 the birds mouth seat cut only is about 3-1/4", but that's ok isn't it?  Therefore I'm not totally seated on all of the top plate of the wall. If I'm correct in my thinking then I'm pretty close to having a rafter template. I 'experimented' on an extra rafter board.

I'm using a regular 2x8 hanger that I screwed in just temporarily to get my cuts right. I will be using those L-90 9" framing angles that Don_P mentioned...if I ever find a place that sells them. I also used a tie at the wall. I just have this first rafter up for a template.

Ok, here's pics...don't laugh, this is the first birds mouth cut of my life and I know I really butchered it but forgive me:

My angle up there at the ridge needs to be just a touch steeper. Is it ok to have the very top of the rafter flush with the top of the beam like that?

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-20-2012rafter1.JPG)
(Pic coming soon)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-20-2012rafter3.JPG)

I really messed up that very first cut, please pay no attention to it. Also, is that the right way to install that metal tie? If it is, I would be surprised because I wasn't at all sure and didn't take the time to look. I did notice where it said 'Plate Line' on it.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-20-2012rafter4.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-20-2012rafter5.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-20-2012rafter6.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on May 20, 2012, 09:45:47 PM
There must be at least 1-1/2" of bearing, so your 3-1/4" wide seat cut is fine from that end. If there is an overhang 2' or shorter (measured horizontally from the building line) then there must also be at least 3-1/2" left above the notch (you should be able to align a 2x4 along the rafter top edge and not touch the plate).

The rafter location on the ridge is perfect for a non ventilated roof. If you are using fiberglass and have soffit and ridge vents then raise the rafter up 1 to 1-1/2" to provide an air channel.

Go to the "installed gallery" on this page and click on #10, H5 installation for this uplift connection;
http://strongtie.com/products/connectors/H.asp

If the L90 hanger is unavailable(or doesn't fit, check your plumb cut length against the ridge) look to the capacity required, I came up with 300 lbs, double check me. In reality for your loads that joist hanger will work as will enough well applied toenails or blocking nailed alongside each rafter with the rafter nailed to the block. A well applied toenail using a 16d sinker has a lateral connection capacity of 75 lbs/nail. We like to see a steel gusset with documented capacity in a critical connection like this, and I use those L90's... but there are several ways to get there.

That well applied toenail enters at a 30 degree angle to the face of the rafter, 1/3 of the nail length back and causes no splitting. That is a bunch of perfect toes although typically I have shot 5 into the rafters to set them before applying the framing angle.

The lighter guage LS adjustable framing angles are more frequently stocked and are in the range as well. Knowing that failure most often occurs at the connections, I tend to beef them.

I actually prefer to see the tip open a tad just like your top plumb cut as opposed to too tight up there and gapped at the bottom. If the tip is doing the bearing it wants to split the rafter. If the heel bears is simply crushes till it gets to a bearing seat wide enough to support it. But don't go overboard  ;D.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Buckeye on May 20, 2012, 10:11:52 PM
Al,
I'm not laughing at all! Thanks for sharing your challenges, as well as your triumphs.
[cool]
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ColchesterCabin on May 21, 2012, 05:30:59 AM
Quote from: Buckeye on May 20, 2012, 10:11:52 PM
Al,
I'm not laughing at all! Thanks for sharing your challenges, as well as your triumphs.
[cool]

To imply your not laughing has the opposite effect and I find that offensive as he and others have poured their hearts into their projects. I don't mind you posting but please keep the derogs out of it. IMO that is!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Buckeye on May 21, 2012, 06:38:01 AM
Sorry...Maybe that came out wrong. I have to cut some birdmouths in the near future and was simply thanking Al for sharing his experience. Often folks have a tendency to only post the finished examples of their work and leave out the challenges and/or mistakes that are usually very helpful. Al's post said not to laugh, and I was simply implying that I was not and appreciated his posting as I am learning alot from his build. My apologies if I offended anyone....
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on May 21, 2012, 07:11:01 AM
None taken, and I'll admit to smiling at seeing a mistake I've made on well more than my first rafter.
Let's learn from it, Al correct me.
The rafter length given in the tables, and by doing the trig is for a line. We have to be careful in thinking about where that calculated line is. Line length is correctly measured from plumb to plumb. In this case if Al takes his level, places it on the outside face of the wall against the rafter and makes a vertical line that extends his plumb cut line along the birdsmouth up to the top edge... we now have a length that can be measured from the top of the plumb cut at the ridge to the plumb mark along the top edge of the rafter at the heel. What I think the first birdsmouth cut shows is a diagonal measure from the top plumb cut to the corner of the notch. This represents a different angle than the one calculated and the rafter is then short.

My correction is then the same as Al's. The test rafter is modified and retried, if it checks a pair is made and tried, moved to the other end and tried again, then we're off to the races. The oops can often be ripped down for a fly  ;).

I've not nailed to tyvek wrapped over the top plate and it shouldn't matter but does give me a little heartburn. I like to think the rafter can bite wood if it tries to slip, outside of logic if I'm counting on fasteners, but the tyvek is a high tech banana peel. If you want help up front, skip the outside rafter pair till we talk about lookouts and describe how you are doing them.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 21, 2012, 07:24:06 AM
Monday Morning - May 21st, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Hey guys, thanks for the posts. I'm not offended by anyone, it's ok. I realize that Buckeye probably didn't read the previous post and he didn't know that I actually said "please don't laugh" in it...it's cool. Ya'll are very helpful and I appreciate each one of you.

Ya, I could hide mistakes here and make everybody think that I know what I'm doing - but I'm just the opposite. The few people who have come by and seen my build say, "wow, you built this yourself? Your a house builder!" I kind of want to say "I'm no more a house builder than you are." Then I try to tell them about how I have more time into studying, book reading, asking people questions, and being on this forum than all the time put together actually building the house. I've made a lot of mistakes and have had to make many corrections.

Bottom line is I would have a very long and hard struggle without the help of the kind few on this forum who try their best to show people the right way to do things. I kind of think that everybody here on this forum ought to have a donate button in their profile so that they can be compensated for their input, information, and kindness...just a thought.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: archimedes on May 21, 2012, 07:45:56 AM
AJ,

Really enjoying watching your build.  Much appreciate your determination.  We all learn much from our mistakes and the mistakes of others.

Just wanting to let you know,  if it's not too late,  how I cut my rafters.

I just attached the un-cut rafter to the out side gable end framing at the correct angle and location,  then traced the birdsmouth and ridge beam lines onto the rafter.  Pull the rafter off and cut the traced lines.     A seasoned carpenter would probably roll his eyes at this method but it worked - and no math required.

Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on May 21, 2012, 05:32:42 PM
As long as it matches side to side, in other words as long as the ridge is in the exact center... that is an excellent way. A scribe is very often the best way to get an exact fit when fitting complex parts.  [cool].
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 21, 2012, 11:51:04 PM
Monday Night - May 21st, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

I have some of the StrongTie LU28 joist hangers and I would like to use them up there at my rafter to ridge beam connection but they are not sloped. The real nice sloped hanger is about $7.00 more for each one. What if I made a small wooden block to fit into the bottom of the LU28 joist hanger and it had a 45 degree angle on it like I need. It would be trapped into position and it also would seat the rafter and have more connection. The block would be 2" x 1-1/2" with a 45 degree angle. It's just a thought. I think I'll try the idea out in the morning.

Here's the LU28 that I'm talking about:

http://www.amazon.com/Simpson-Strong-Tie-Mount-Joist-Hanger/dp/B003PZJLSO (http://www.amazon.com/Simpson-Strong-Tie-Mount-Joist-Hanger/dp/B003PZJLSO)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 22, 2012, 08:17:35 PM
Tuesday Night - May 22nd, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Got 3 rafters up today, each one got a little better as I went. I'm using that LU28 joist hanger with some wooden 45 degree blocks that I made. These blocks seat the rafter in the bottom of the joist hanger instead of only the bottom outer edge of the joist hanger touching the rafter. I also toe-nailed 2 16d nails, one on each side above the hanger. I also put a third nail in at the very top of the rafter on the 1-1/2" width and into the ridge. I'm pretty sure it all is of sufficient hold.

At the birds mouth/seat cut I put 1 StrongTie H2.5 tie along with a 16d toe-nailed on each side and into the top plate.

Here's a picture of the blocks:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-22-2012rafter1.JPG)

Now I lay the block in the bottom of the StrongTie LU28 and it gets trapped in there once the rafter is in place:
(Pic coming soon)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-22-2012rafter2.JPG)
(Pic coming soon)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-22-2012rafter3.JPG)

And lastly, a little picture of the drawing of how I make my rafter cuts on those 2x8x16 footers:
(Pic coming soon)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-22-2012rafter4.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on May 22, 2012, 09:19:02 PM
AL as a poor man solution to the rafter tie at the bottom plate I would cut blocks to fit between the rafters.  Securely fasten to the top plate I could then nail the rafters to those without splitting the rafters by toenailing.  Normally I did toe nail but just added the block for extra insurance.  I just used scrap 2X material so there was no extra cost involved just time and a few more 16d's.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on May 22, 2012, 09:55:28 PM
I really can't say on the hanger, you'll have to satisfy yourself. I like Redover's block solution, we worked a problem on the inspector's forum and proved blocking works just fine by using the NDS math. But they would still reject it. Mr Simpson was a mighty good marketer... and provides a good product. If you go to the awc.org connections calculator it uses the NDS math and also includes steel sheet and plate design values when nailed to wood. A block of wood or a folded angle of galvanized sheet metal with a nail into a piece of wood has an allowable design value.

Don't forget to string the ridge and keep checking it for straight. Working in opposite pairs generally keeps it straight.

Your thought about a donate button seems like a neat idea but I don't know. I do think it is great that you see that there is a value in all this chatting.  I've been wrestling with how to earn an income in the future, I'll admit I spend waay too much time here and have considered a similar model to this site, well, and Walmart greeter,  building better mousetraps and several other things. Money can sure bring unintended consequences into play though. To make a point over the din I've hit you hard square between the eyes a time or two. Do I pull that punch to earn cash. How would I have answered the joist hanger question if there was financial incentive to tell you what you wanted to hear. There are some very slick talkers out there, does that then become incentive for others to blow smoke up your skirt to take your money.  Most folks here have a tough enough time sorting the wheat from the chaff, I don't think that'll make it easier. If there is money available though, I know some really smart people. One of them walked through a house with me and showed me enough waste in my design to have more than covered his fee and his would have been a better building. Anyway, random thoughts, and at least for myself, I do appreciate your kind thoughts.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: duncanshannon on May 22, 2012, 11:17:55 PM
Quote from: ajbremer on May 21, 2012, 07:24:06 AM
I kind of think that everybody here on this forum ought to have a donate button in their profile so that they can be compensated for their input, information, and kindness...just a thought.

I agree.  One easy thing to do would be to have people maintain a 'wish list' on amazon... and then people can order things off that wishlist as gifts.  (http://www.amazon.com/wishlist)

I imagine we will need to resort to peer pressure to convince people to create and 'advertise' their wish list however...

Common.. you know who you are and you know you should do it! We would appreciate it if you did... we feel indebted to you and this would be a way for us to contribute in our own way!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 22, 2012, 11:47:11 PM
I went to amazon's wishlist and it's really pretty cool. I will investigate it more later...great info!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on May 24, 2012, 05:27:12 PM
On a method to donate as a way of saying thanks.... I agree with much of what Don_P stated above in the last paragraph of post# 529.   At times it is hard enough to have great thoughts and ideas given a proper look by some folks. Tossing the possibility of remuneration into the free advice raises the issue of ethics. How does the neophyte builder tell good advice from bad? I'm sure some folks will thank someone who agrees with their own way of thinking.

Myself, I believe that a pat on the back may be the best approach. I believe I have offered a few bits of good advice here and there. Until this donation thing was mentioned it never occurred to me that anyone owed me anything. It would be cool to receive something more tangible than a verbal pat on the back but I have reservations about the process of giving tangible rewards for advice in a public forum.

As an aside, but connected to the subject.... It is possible to go find sites on the internet that will pay you for taking the time to go and post positive reviews on some web sites that are selling a product or a service. Not cool.

Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on May 24, 2012, 09:36:30 PM
You mean I am not getting paid for this.   ;).  I'm like Mt.Don in that I expect nothing in return but an occassional thanks. One thing nice is that if the information received by one individual is not quite correct there are other eyes which soon remedy the error or offer other alternatives.  We are here because of our choice to be here in hopes that me may contribute in some small way to make things easier, more efficent, last longer, to be built stronger and learn.  I for one sometimes feel that I probably have not held up my end of the bargin in return for the information I have received.

For those who do not agree I will forward my mailing address in a PM message.  Master Card, Visa, American Express and Checks accepted. ;D

Al sorry for hyjacking your thread.  But you started it.   d*
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: JavaMan on May 24, 2012, 10:36:57 PM
Quote from: Redoverfarm on May 24, 2012, 09:36:30 PM
You mean I am not getting paid for this.   ;).  I'm like Mt.Don in that I expect nothing in return but an occassional thanks. One thing nice is that if the information received by one individual is not quite correct there are other eyes which soon remedy the error or offer other alternatives.  We are here because of our choice to be here in hopes that me may contribute in some small way to make things easier, more efficent, last longer, to be built stronger and learn.  I for one sometimes feel that I probably have not held up my end of the bargin in return for the information I have received.

For those who do not agree I will forward my mailing address in a PM message.  Master Card, Visa, American Express and Checks accepted. ;D

Al sorry for hyjacking your thread.  But you started it.   d*

I donate to you but... that smiling pig freaks me out! :o

Just funnin' ...I too feel like I'm not holding up my end with sufficient contributions in my or other's threads ... well, other than how NOT to do it d*
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on May 24, 2012, 11:19:38 PM
On the other hand there could be times when someone has been of invaluable assistance and it's like they should pay somebody for the help received. I guess I can see both ways. How to be fair is a question to be answered.

Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on May 25, 2012, 07:20:16 AM
Quotewhen someone has been of invaluable assistance and it's like they should pay somebody for the help received
Darn I hate when a good sentence goes bad  ;D

But to the meaning, I'm thinking of the guy who provides this site  ;)
There is a very good 3 day class on the latest version of the NDS coming up in Oct at VA Tech, it is sometimes repeated at WA State. Pretty spendy, mentally exhausting, but very good. Group effort  :)

On a wish list I realized mine is reference books. But if you all bought yourself books the good effect is probably the same. The tide lifts all ships.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: JavaMan on May 25, 2012, 10:35:25 AM
Sorry Al, but I want to add one additional thought, since Don brought up our host here.  He does have links to books for purchase on the main site, and I'm guessing that there is a commission he gets paid for that (as I participate in that program over on my sites), so one way to support the place is to purchase books you might need through those links.

I'll have to look to make certain of the policy, but I think Amazon pays a commission on whatever you purchase from their site if you found your way there through a link on another site.  Which would mean you don't have to purchase the books actually listed (I'm sure some of use have a few of those already  :)), but others you might want/need.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 26, 2012, 07:21:07 AM
Saturday Morining - May 26th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Thanks for the post everyone!

Javaman, I like your reminder about the books - I love those building books. I've got "The Visual Handbook of Building and Remodeling", that "Framing by Wagner" book, and the "Graphic Guide to Frame Construction by Rob Thallon". Soon it'll be time for me to buy the books about plumbing and electrical installation...whoopee!

I've got more than half of my rafters up now! I'm leaving the end ones till last because I'm studying hard about how to do them. The "Graphic Guide to Frame Construction" has some pretty good illustrations and text showing how to do this, about 4 pages dedicated to barge rafters and overhang and exposed rakes. "House Framing by Wagner" has 2 pages dedicated to the explanation of these barge rafters. All explanations show a ridge board or ridge beam going beyond the buildings end - I flunked the test in planning for this.

Help Needed!

One of the situations I have to work with is that my ridge beam stops at the building length. I realize now that I should have ordered my beam to be 34' instead of the buildings length - 30' so that the beam would stick out beyond the building length 2' at each end for the connection of my barge rafters. Does this mean that I shouldn't try for a barge rafter because of the lack of support by the beam? Or, can I make a bracket of some kind near the beams end to help support the top of the barge rafters? The fascia, lookouts, and roof sheathing alone won't be enough to support the barge rafters without the help of a top connection will they?

Is it an odd thing not to use barge rafters? How far can my roof sheathing go beyond the end rafters if I don't go with a barge rafter? (I would rather do all I can to have those barge rafters)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on May 26, 2012, 08:34:10 AM
With a ridgeboard I run the ridge out, notch the underside to get it up and hidden in the soffit and use it to attach the fly rafter to (barge rafter and verge rafter are 2 other names for this member). But when I have a thick ridgebeam this becomes a more of a problem, I stop it at the wall. The lookouts are each a cantilevered beam extending out to attach the fly to. Yes we can have another beam at the very top, the ridge, but we don't normally have to have it. I put a lookout very near the peak on each side.

The rafters and walls the lookouts are attached to need to be plumbed, stringlined and braced rigidly before attaching the lookouts. I normally rough cut the lookouts a few inches long, assemble the parts to the inboard rafters and leave the outboard ends wild. At that point I chalk a line across the lookouts' outboard end, climb the ladder and cut them all to that straight chalkine. Not comfortable or particularly safe but a very straight line of lookouts for the fly to then nail to. IF you hold all the parts in perfect alignment during assembly this is not neccessary.

I'll stop there for now, post a sketch or describe how you plan to frame this area if you need more help.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 26, 2012, 10:27:40 AM
That's great information and very helpful Don_P, I am relieved...a little bit.

My next question and area of concern is my front and back porch and porch roof. The most important thing to me now is for me to get my roof on BUT, I've seen builds here where porch roofs are attached to the rafters at the top plate and to sheath the main roof totally would mean that you either can't do that or you have to tear off the sheets to put the porch roof on at a later time.

I remember seeing one build here where the person sheathed his roof but stopped at the last row of sheets at the bottom so that he could later attach the porch roof rafters. Even though the sheets didn't go all the way to the main roofs bottom, he did felt paper it all the way down. Then he just lifted up the felt paper when it was time to do the porch roof rafters. That way, at least the rain is kept out of the build. I guess I could do it that way OR...is there any way to totally complete the main roof and then use a rim board attached just under the top plates and go down with the porch rafters from there?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on May 26, 2012, 10:01:22 PM
On the house we're working on now I had to leave part of the sheathing off for a couple of months while we brought the porches up and got them tied in. I used the synthetic "tarpaper" which is 4' wide and much more tear resistant. I covered those exposed areas with the synthetic and it pretty much held up. I think I repaired it a time or two when we had bad winds but it did a good job.

There are three ways to tie the porch roof in that come to mind.
1) Set the porch rafters on the top plate of the wall, minimal notch up top on the wall to avoid that splitting potential, a bevelled ledger strip under the rafters nailed to the wall would help support that lower edge.
2) Run the sheathing down to the rafter ends and lay a horizontal ledger flat on the roof that the porch rafters rest on and are attached to.
3) Use Ledgerlock or similar structural screws to attach a horizontal ledger to the wall that the porch rafters attach to. ( in my '92 copy of Thallon's this is shown on pg 125 detail B)

If our pages are the same flip to pg 123, detail C shows the blocking method I was describing earlier.

Draw a section view of the house as built and figure out where the rafters need to intersect with respect to the outer carry beam, the porch pitch and the main roof.

On the lookouts, I neglected to mention earlier that I usually set them 2' on center and take pains to figure out where the sheathing will land so that the edges are supported by the lookouts and can be nailed to them. The greatest uplift force on a roof is the overhangs, especially the lower corners of the overhangs, nail off well. I was in a class with room full of archies and engineers and they were commenting that this area is the first to come apart in wind and carpenters usually do their poorest nailing out on that corner. It was a mystery to them till I explained that normally in production framing I was hanging on to the top of the sheet with one hand while leaning down and shooting off the perimeter, all the while staring at the ground. It draws real easy on paper. Your site is a dream, it looks like an easy one to scaffold or ladder from. Now that I've admitted to that foolishness, we've come a long way. If you haven't picked one up there is usually a bucket of fall arrest gear in the safety stuff aisle at Lowes. 
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 27, 2012, 07:37:48 AM
Sunday Morning - May 27th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Thank you again Don_P.

I looked into my copy of "Graphic Guide to Frame Construction" by Rob Thallon and tried to find the details you mentioned but couldn't find them yet. My copy is the third edition, revised, updated, and dated 2008. I know those details must be in there, I guess I just don't know what I'm looking at. I didn't notice a lot if anything about a porch roof but I could have skipped over it. I will look again asap.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 27, 2012, 08:59:19 AM
Sunday Morning - May 27th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Ok, this is a long post - sorry, I'm just trying to be informative.

I almost got all of the common rafters up now. Once they are done, I will attach my end rafters and then cut out notches in them for the lookouts to meet the fly.

I will now talk about my successes, failures, concerns, and hardships...about me cutting up and putting up my rafters.

Cutting and trying to make perfect rafter connections, especially at the top ridge beam, was frustrating and time consuming for me but I'm confident about the connections, satisfied about the job I've done so far on the rafters, and hopefully getting better with each one I do.

First let me mention something about my ridge beam(s). As you may know, I've screwed and nailed 2 - 1 3/4" x 11 7/8" 1.9E Microllam® LVL beams together that fit into 3 posts at the top of my build. I had the end ridge beam posts built and up first and then I built my middle ridge beam post and put it up.

Well, when I (we) lifted those 2 heavy beams up and into their yokes, the bottom of that middle post was not high enough to reach the bottom of the beam, (my measurement was off) it was about 1/2" to low so I shimmed it by inserting a piece of my Advantech flooring into it - the thickness was just right. Before I shimmed that beam, I could tell how strong they are because it would take a lot of weight to make the beam begin to deflect there in the middle.

The beam was relatively straight when I string lined the edge of the beam after installation - it's perfect till just a little after halfway and then it goes north almost 1/4" and then back to perfect a few feet before the end. I figured that wasn't bad and left it alone. After all, those beams together like that are really strong and trying to push them straight just by making the rafter cut a little longer and then nailing and pushing the beam out wouldn't work. I would have had to put a strap or chain around the beam and use a come along or something. Plus, there was nothing that high to attach the strap or chain to. All that to say, my top roof line might be off around 1/4" or so at one point and that causes the rafters to not be exactly the same length so I ended up cutting and putting up rafters one at a time. In the perfect world I guess they gang cut all the rafters and then just slap them up there.

Some of my rafters at the very top differ in height as much as 1/4" or so. I thought that was ok also and didn't tear any of them down...well, yes I did. I had a couple of them nailed at the birds mouth cut and when I would climb up to the top to check them they were way to high or the angle was off, or the bottom had the gap and just the top was touching so I tore them down and would cut them again. I know one thing, when I eyeball down my rafters, they do look good and lined up!

Some times I would cut a rafter, put it up, and it would be just perfect, picture worthy for a close up shot that I was excited about posting here. Then I would put my hanger in place and nail it to the beam first, still perfect. But when I would nail the 16d's into the angled sides of the hanger it would cause a small gap to appear, only about a 1/16" or so but still...frustrating! The beam's not moving because I string lined it again - it must be the joist is flexing? So then, when I look straight down between the beam and rafter and see daylight and it's only touching at one particular spot - is that a bad thing, have you seen worse?

Now, let me mention something about how I cut the angle in the rafters at the top. I've only been using a circular saw this whole build. Someone told me that a chop saw is the best way to cut that angle? Anyway, sometimes when I would cut that angle, it wouldn't be straight, maybe a touch off here and there. So I ended up clamping a piece of metal to the rafter and used it as a guide for the edge of my saw. It was time consuming but it did make a perfectly straight cut. The piece of metal that I used was an old large hand saw, it looked pretty weird but it worked.

Here's pics of what I have so far:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-27-2012rafter1.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-27-2012rafter2.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-27-2012rafter3.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-27-2012rafter4.JPG)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-27-2012rafter6.JPG)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on May 27, 2012, 10:18:59 AM
The roof looks good, the cuts and ridge seem fine. It is set up for a non vented roof or a wide vented ridgecap.
If you can cut your lookout notches on the ground it is much easier than in the air.
I don't really understand the bottoms and porch yet.
Do use plywood clips when you sheath the roof, they aren't fun but are well worth the effort. I much prefer 5/8 (19/32") sheathing.
I've never used a chopsaw to cut rafters, I guess a sliding compound saw would do it but as wood gets bigger it is easier to bring the tool to the work than the work to the tool. When you get to log or timberframing it becomes about impossible to bring the work to the tool, but rafters are right on up there. High production framers do gang cut. I make a pattern and cut one by one. They are fast, I inspect, slip and slide and remove defects that I can if the length allows

It is nice to build perfect but it isn't a watch. All errors accumulate to the roof. If there are offending humps and bumps I'll powerplane the high spots. Sliding a long straight board up and down across the rafters will show high spots, again it isn't a watch so don't drive yourself crazy. It will move some when it dries more. In ridgebeam construction the rafter is hanging from the ridge so the fit up there is not pushing against the rafter/ridge connection. It is hanging off the beam from the hanger.

The shim is ok, been there. I neglected to tell you to lower the tops of the yokes, you'll need to nip those protruding corners so the sheathing can lay down flat. The frustrating gap is probably the nail going through the lumber easily but not easy into the lvl, the point probably drifted into a place that doesn't let it tighten up. My first top nail is usually from the top edge of the rafter into the ridge if I'm pushing or toed from the top edge of the  ridge down to the rafter if pulling it over to the rafter. It is hard to move that beam around without the proverbial skyhook. That snake is very minor, you done good. We have those discussion and I'll holler up, darlin, you're thirty feet in the air.

I suspected our book editions might not line up, nothing major. Mine doesn't get into porch roofs, that detail was a shed roof detail that would work.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 28, 2012, 11:44:39 AM
Monday Morning - May 28th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Happy Memorial Day!

I took a couple of good pics out there this morning and am taking a lunch break now. I also took a neat video of a lot of the things I've been doing up there lately.

Here's a pic of how I got a crooked board to get straight enough to nail the hanger to it:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-28-2012rafter1.JPG)

And here is how I made a guide for my little saw to get a real good straight cut. I clamped down an old hand saw using 2 c-clamps and the saw follows the guide. I bought that cheap saw at a yard sale years ago never realizing that it would build my house, I think I paid $10.00 for it. I also don't think it's even a full size saw, I think it the next step down.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-28-2012rafter3.jpg)

I'm going to be uploading a video of how I cut and hang my rafters real soon...stay tuned.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on May 28, 2012, 01:02:15 PM
it looks good Al. they call it rough framing for a reason. lol you will never see that little bit of snake in that beam once the sheathing is on, roofed and a ridge cap put on.

i cut almost everything in framing with a circular saw. i use a larger speed square as a guide and cut right along it. just make sure if you have a gap at the beam, its on the top of the rafter not the bottom.

i plan to block in my rafters not use the brackets. guess old habits die hard. i hate all them angled nailings for the reson you discovered. nail guns greatly reduce the board moving around when you toe nail but kinda hard to air nail brackets (altho i do it)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 28, 2012, 01:27:05 PM
Monday Afternoon (Memorial Day) May 28th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Thanks CjAl...cool advise!

Here's a video I took and uploaded to youtube today:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLVKP1PTtWw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLVKP1PTtWw)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ColchesterCabin on May 28, 2012, 08:58:59 PM
AJ that looks cool, Glad you seemed to have got used to the heights. For my build I am using engineered rafters but am so not looking forward to the overhangs. I really enjoyed your videos and following your build so far.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: JavaMan on May 28, 2012, 09:18:30 PM
Geez, Al ... I probably shouldn't have watched that video since I'm going to be climbing around my roofing project in a couple weeks... and I have this irrational fear of heights ( well, maybe it's not so irrational  ???)

Good video, tho.  I'll have to watch it on a a machine with sound later  d*
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 29, 2012, 01:23:25 PM
Tuesday Afternoon - May 29th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

K, did what I wanted to do during this holiday weekend - used up all of my supplies (wood, etc.) and had to stop. I'll have to place an order at the lumber yard later this week for more.

I was able to get all my common rafters in and 3 end ones. Now I just have to do one end rafter, the lookouts, and then the barge rafters.

Question: Where those outrigger rafters meet at the top, there's no ridge board up there in my case so the only support will be the lookouts, facia, and soffit. Could I, should I, make some kind of gusset where the rafter angles meet up there?

Here are pics so far:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-29-2012rafter1.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-29-2012rafter2.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-29-2012rafter3.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-29-2012rafter4.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-29-2012rafter5.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: astidham on May 29, 2012, 05:15:11 PM
congrats!! what a huge step!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on May 29, 2012, 11:33:01 PM
Looks like you are notching in 2x lookouts flatways. I usually run the gable end sheathing up to the underside of the lookouts which creates that gusset. One way to brace the end rafters straight at this point is to build and brace the end walls. I'm usually running for the roof at this point but you can install the plates and a stud or two in the center of the rafter span and brace that back to the floor. It doesn't hurt to run a horizontal row at midspan across the top of the rafters holding them on layout. I also like to put blocking between the rafters flush with the outside of the wall that is about 1-1/2 " shorter than the height of the rafter above the birdsmouth out there... if it is a vented roof. If foam run the blocking up tight to the top of the rafters to create a dam for the foam guys.

I usually run 2x6 flys and subfascia and 1x8 fascia but that is a personal choice.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 29, 2012, 11:59:14 PM
That is exactly the information I've needed Don_P, thank you. I will reread it again to fully understand it all.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 30, 2012, 11:07:09 AM
Wednesday Morning - May 30th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Hey Don,

I don't understand this part of what you said last post:

"...but you can install the plates and a stud or two in the center of the rafter span and brace that back to the floor. It doesn't hurt to run a horizontal row at midspan across the top of the rafters holding them on layout."

I'm still wondering about where those 2 - 45 degree angle cuts on the barge rafters come together. Can I make a little gusset plate and nail it to the back side of them?

I've seen builds here where they are putting that blocking between the rafters above the top plates, I'll do that and leave vent room.

It rained and stormed in the very early hours of the morning and I went out there and swept the water off the floor again. It'll be a celebration when the rain don't get in.

Here's another question about my gable end / loft window framing y'all. My build has those ridge beam posts in the middle of each gable end so my choice of windows becomes somewhat limited, my windows have to be on one side or the other. I originally wanted to get those windows that are pointed at the top and angle down along the 45 degree roof line, one on each side - 4 total. Are there standard dimensions for windows like that or are they always a special order. The bad thing about those types of windows are that they don't open and I would like windows that open so I may just forget about the fancy angles and go with rectangular windows on each side of the post on each end.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: metolent on May 30, 2012, 11:26:54 AM
Wow!  Looks really great, you must be quite pleased!  I've been checking back in regularly just to see how you're coming along Al. 

I used trapezoidal windows on either side of the posts on my cabin.  I special ordered them to sizes I chose, based on the stud framing between the windows to make for the proper 45 degree downward angle across all three on both sides to follow the roof line.  I used fixed glass on mine, but there's nothing stopping you from using combinations.  For example, I was initially set on using triangular windows on top of casement windows to get a similar look, but would open.  The triangular windows were going to be fixed (e.g. cheap - would have been 2.5' x 2.5' and were going to cost me about $40 ordered and delivered), but the casements would enable me to open everything up without the dividers needed for sliders.  It would still look similar to all fixed panes, but open.  In the end, I realized it would be a pain to open/close them given the height off the floor, so I elected to just use the two sets of french doors to "open" the wall and went with the fixed glass for the trapezoidal windows up there.  If I recall correctly, those custom-sized six windows cost me ~$800 delivered.  Turns out they were the most expensive windows I used, but then my father-in-law was a Marvin window guy, so I used nearly all Marvin windows in my cabin that were free (with a few Milgard exceptions).

Can't wait to see more progress Al.... keep up the great work! 
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: UK4X4 on May 30, 2012, 01:51:56 PM
By code you need an exit sized window no higher than 42" in any bedroom on the second floor.

A good idea wether in a code area or not.

If you noticed on the news the terrible Qatar fire which killed 13 children...........we know that kindergarden......it only has one entry and exit- no fire escape we did not use it due to that and it had no windows either

My wife knows the family that lost the triplets.........so sad
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on May 30, 2012, 05:37:02 PM
I read about the fire, so sorry to hear that UK.

QuoteI don't understand this part of what you said last post:
"...but you can install the plates and a stud or two in the center of the rafter span and brace that back to the floor. It doesn't hurt to run a horizontal row at midspan across the top of the rafters holding them on layout."

You will be framing gable walls at each end. You can go ahead and put down the bottom sole plate on the floor and lay it out for studs (I like for them to stand them in line with the studs below if at all possible). There are several ways to handle the top of the studs.  You can put a sloped 2x6 plate on the underside of the rafter and fill studs between top and bottom plates or you can notch the studs to run up alongside the rafters and nail the rafter to the stud.
(https://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x109/windyhilll/th_gable2.jpg)
At this point I usually just put in a single stud near the middle of each rafter and nail a brace from the rafter end of the stud down to the floor, stringlining the rafter or plumbing that stud. This helps stabilize the end rafter in the correct location before lookouts go in. You'll have 4 locations of this bracing, 2 braces at each gable end. In that middle area of the rafters I'll often nail a 2x4 horizontally across the roof, pulling the rafters to the same layout they have at top and bottom, Don't smoke the nails, leave the heads up a bit for easy pulling. You've just locked them straight for sheathing. When the sheathing gets up to that layout board remove it and continue sheathing.
(https://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x109/windyhilll/beyer216007.jpg)

As far as stock triangle windows, there are stock 45 degree windows... but your roof is not a 45 you'll have to see if the angle difference is objectionable. Remember when I asked it the pitch was critical, here it is coming back around. If it's fixed glass I usually site build the frames and get the glass company to come out and measure it and make the glass. Have them take the measures, if it is wrong it is theirs not yours. If it is big or hairy I have them set it. Do check on egress window locations, remember you'll probably get into tempered glass requirements at 18" or lower to the floor.

Stock octagons come in operable and fixed and have 45 degree sides, not sure how a pair of "eyes" up there at the loft end would look.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on May 30, 2012, 09:07:12 PM
just something for you to consider Al.

you just said you will install blocking at the plate between the rafters and leave room for venting.

however your rafter connection at the ridge beam.is set for a non vented roof. if you wanted vented you should have had the rafter an inch or inch amd a half higher then the top of the beam. as you sit they are flush.with the top of the beam offering nowhere for air to flow.
plus your rafters are not big enough to have room for venting and enough insulation

i think i see non vented spray foam in your future my friend
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on May 30, 2012, 10:12:06 PM
You can still ridge vent with the beam.  Dropping your sheeting 1-1/2" from the beam edge on your rafter and then use a wide ridge vent.  You will however need to leave some space at the bottom(soffit area) for the air to enter.  I am not sure without reading the rafter size but blocking just one size smaller should allow enough air if all bays are allowed to draw air on the top portion of the blocks and near the roof sheeting.. Then using rafter-mates to extend to the ridge area if all the ceiling will be used.  If not just to the point above the ceiling insulation.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 30, 2012, 10:39:11 PM
I tried NOT to set my rafters flush with the top of the ridge beam. Yes, I didn't go an inch to an inch and a half but the point of the rafters average about 1/2" above the beam. You can see them sticking up if you look closely at some of those past rafter top pictures.

Wouldn't that be enough to let air through?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on May 31, 2012, 05:13:29 AM
Quote from: ajbremer on May 30, 2012, 10:39:11 PM
I tried NOT to set my rafters flush with the top of the ridge beam. Yes, I didn't go an inch to an inch and a half but the point of the rafters average about 1/2" above the beam. You can see them sticking up if you look closely at some of those past rafter top pictures.

Wouldn't that be enough to let air through?

Al that is not much but by setting your sheeting back 1" from the beams outside edge it should be sufficent. 
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ColchesterCabin on May 31, 2012, 05:17:41 AM
AJ do a slight setback from the ridge beam and perhaps use a ridge vent and all should be well. Ridge venting is not that expensive just can be a oain in the you know where. I have learned a lot from your post so far has been very insightful for my project.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on May 31, 2012, 06:32:55 AM
You're cutting it pretty fine but here would be the check. They want relatively balanced intake and exhaust and it should be from 1/300 to 1/150 of the area vented. The area would be, in your case I think about 168" of rafter length wall to ridge times 22.5" bay width divided by .5"x 22.5", the gap up top. Check it and I think you'll scrape by. I like the idea of holding the sheathing back to open that a bit if you can get an acceptable cap. Up there you could also add a bit of shim under the sheathing to open it up a little bit, nobody will see it. The biggest thing is to use the rafter chutes Redover mentioned every bay all the way from bottom blocking to ridge to make sure insulation doesn't push up and close the vent path.  I insulated ours with too little fiberglass and went back inside with a couple of layers of foam and then osb as a nail base for t&g. I kept chasing my tail once I realized I didn't have a warm enough hat on. It probably would have been cheaper all told to foam it, but that is not cheap either.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 31, 2012, 08:28:24 AM
Thursday Morning - May 31st, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Thanks for the posts everyone.

I've been googling this morning trying to learn more about venting, ridge caps/ ridge vents, etc.

Here's a video of a radiant barrier going into a cathedral ceiling. He using foam board stuff and then attic foil across it for a vent area up through the rafter width from bottom to top. I guess that's just another form of those vent barriers.

Here's a few videos of ridge vents, etc.:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjwZXoRzRiM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjwZXoRzRiM)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AhiltNFB3Q (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AhiltNFB3Q)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 01, 2012, 01:11:06 PM
Friday Afternoon - June 1st, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Just barely started on doing the first lookouts of my life. Also the very first gable end stud...cool!

Here's a youtube video from today:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ct0MPfyYHYg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ct0MPfyYHYg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Squirl on June 01, 2012, 01:41:15 PM
I heard you mention the extra long cut when notching the wood for the outrigger.  When I am notching the wood, I set the saw to 1.5 inch depth and just keep cutting kerfs in the space and finish with a hammer and chisel.  If you don't have chisels, they are pretty cheap ($5-$10).  In a pinch I have used an oversized screw driver as a chisel.  BTW thanks for sharing that rafter cut from earlier.  It makes me feel I am not alone.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 01, 2012, 06:27:33 PM
Friday Night - June 1st, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Here's some pics of what I did today. Still plenty to go:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/6-01-2012rafter1.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/6-01-2012rafter2.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/6-01-2012rafter3.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on June 01, 2012, 07:03:47 PM
AJ maybe you stated earlier but are you going with single or metal roof.  If metal your application will be different than those portrayed in the video.  Here is just an example of a Metal ridge vent. This particular one says it extends 8" from the peak on both sides.   On my roof I just used a ridge cap.

http://www.exceptionalmetals.com/vented-ridge-cap.php

http://www.mackeymetalroofing.com/METAL_ROOF_PLAIN_RIDGE_CAP_p/mmr-trim-lg101.htm

With either you will need some type of insect screen material similar to Cobra and some end caps.  Bats like to enter the ends. 

While we are sort of on the subject what are your plans for the soffit area?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 01, 2012, 08:11:17 PM
Thanks Redoverfarm - that's very good information.

I will be going with shingles and not metal. I like the looks of shingles. I can see myself understanding and doing the job of installing shingles. I'll be sleeping right under that roof and I'm not sure if the rain drop noise is something I like. I'm thinking that the shingles are a better sound insulator? Sound is not my reason for wanting shingles though.

As far as the soffit area is concerned, I've seen examples and what I would like to do is to cut my rafter tails plumb for a facia board (that's better for gutters isn't it?) and then do a small flat cut under that at 90 degrees where I can nail the soffit board to the rafters. I could nail a horizontal nailer strip all the way down the long walls for the soffit board to be nailed to also, right? I then plan to have screens for the venting at every rafter bay. Am I right in thinking that each rafter bay needs a screen where the soffit board is?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on June 01, 2012, 08:50:53 PM
Quote from: ajbremer on June 01, 2012, 08:11:17 PM
Thanks Redoverfarm - that's very good information.

I will be going with shingles and not metal. I like the looks of shingles. I can see myself understanding and doing the job of installing shingles. I'll be sleeping right under that roof and I'm not sure if the rain drop noise is something I like. I'm thinking that the shingles are a better sound insulator? Sound is not my reason for wanting shingles though.

As far as the soffit area is concerned, I've seen examples and what I would like to do is to cut my rafter tails plumb for a facia board (that's better for gutters isn't it?) and then do a small flat cut under that at 90 degrees where I can nail the soffit board to the rafters. I could nail a horizontal nailer strip all the way down the long walls for the soffit board to be nailed to also, right? I then plan to have screens for the venting at every rafter bay. Am I right in thinking that each rafter bay needs a screen where the soffit board is?

If your soffit will be closed in you don't need a screen at each bay.  I believe and someone may concur/correct that you will need approximately 1 sg ft of soffit vent per 150 sq ft. of rafter space.  Don't quote me as it has been sometime since I researched it.  Meaning if you used the metal screened vents ( approx 4"X10") Something like these
that already have the screen in place. It only requires the correct rough opening in the soffit.  Of course there are others that would do the same job in different shapes and sizes.  Just figure the math to match the amount needed. Speaking of which I had been told at one time that the soffit vent area should be matched with the exhaust (ridge vent) area.  Which may have some merit as you are not going to allow any more air in than what is exhausted out.  That would not mean that all your vents (soffit) can be at one location.  They should be evenly spaced to serve all the rafter bays.   

http://www.lowes.com/pd_17108-52595-FOV168BR_4294858159__?productId=3284190&Ns=p_product_qty_sales_dollar|1&pl=1&currentURL=%2Fpl__4294858159__%3FNs%3Dp_product_qty_sales_dollar%7C1&facetInfo=

Yes it is a good idea for a rake/facia board to attach the gutters to but even better in addition to occassionally hit the rafter also with the hanger(hidden).  I have seen the soffit done the way you described and also letting the facia board extend below the rafter tail so that your siffit material can be nailed to the tail and then follow up with a piece if trim nailed to both the rafter tail (on top of the soffit material) and the facia board.  But you are correct that you will need a nailer against the wall which is plumb(level) with the same nailing surface on the rafter tail.  Depending on what type of material you use might dictate the manner that it is attached.

On mine I used 3/8" V board (4" spacing) similar to T1-11 cut off of the 4' end of a 4'X8' sheet to the width of my soffit.  I installed nailers running from my rafter tails bottoms to the wall every 16-24" if memory is correct.  I just sistered them to the rafter and toe nailed them to my nailer running along the wall. That way I didn't have to cut the bottom of the rafter.   Since my sheetgoods were 4' that gave me a nailer at the splice for the next adjoining piece.  I used the rectangle vents like those pictured above and they were external face mounted so the cross blocking did not affect the placement and I was able to evenly space them in the soffit area.

You would think out of 485 pictures of different stages of my build that I would have a photo of that detail. NOT.

Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 03, 2012, 08:06:47 AM
Sunday Morning - June 3rd, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Ok, now I'm thinking a little bit differently about my soffit and facia configuration due to time limitations. I would like to leave the rafter ends the way they are, still venting and covering of course.

My home owners associations 1 year 'externally finished' time limit is up in only a couple months. The way they worded it is this:

"The exterior of the building must be completed within one (1) year of the commencement of construction."

I'm figuring that the "...commencement of construction." for me was when I started to dig my first pier hole.

I really have to put things in overdrive but yet keep doing things right and not cutting corners.

The worse part about all of this is that I won't be able to put my front and back porch rafters up there on the top plates of the wall because I'll have to finish the roof, siding, and put in the doors and windows, not enough time to build front and rear porch, dig holes, etc.

I'm sure that they'll work with me if I'm not exactly on time, in fact, I don't think my HOA knows my exact date of commencement.

So again, I'll be leaving my rafter tails the way they are and I'll be looking for some diagrams showing what I'll need to do. I'll have to get into the books.

Today I'm hopefully going to finish the lookouts and then I'll put the barge rafters on. Then comes the sheeting.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on June 03, 2012, 08:20:15 AM
it will usually be the date you applied for the permit.

vhances are they will just make you get another permit but with the problem they gave you over that shed who really knows.

with ten foot walls you can always run the porch rafters off the walls just under the roof overhangs. thats what i plan to do but i will likely be a bit over ten foot.

btw my hoa gives me 180 days to dry in. i applied for my permit like 4 months ago and i havent even poured the concrete piers yet. but my hoa doesnt enforce anything.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 04, 2012, 10:42:46 AM
Monday Morning - June 4th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Ya ever had broom blisters?

It rained again hard very early in the morning all the way up till around 7:30am or so. Well, I didn't think it would have rained so I left all my tools and stuff just laying all out ready for the next day, had church and didn't want to take the time, etc.

Well, I woke up to rain at about 2:10am. It was kind of off and on so I got up and weatherbugged the doppler and I thought it all might pass by so I tried to lay back down. Then it rained harder so I just got up, put clothes on, and went out and up into the loft, hooked up a light and gathered all my tools and put them under the loft floor out of the direct rain fall. By the time I layed back down I had been up for at least an hour and a half.

I went back out about 9:30 this morning and started to sweep the water off the floors. It puddles in a few places so it makes me wonder if I can do something about that from underneath, jack it up, sister another stud, let me know. Anyway, level floor or not, it takes a while to sweep the thing. I almost end up with blisters! I feel like Ringo on the White Album when he shouts, "I got blisters on me fingers!". (Only a few of you may know that but I thought that anyways).

I gotta get my roof on and stop that rain!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 04, 2012, 05:32:56 PM
Monday Afternoon - June 4th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

I got to show one 'old-timer' my build over the weekend and he said something that I've been questioning.

He looked at my pile of 7/16 sheets for the roof and noticed my 2x8 rafters at 2' centers and then said that it would be wise to put 2x4 purlins across the length of the rafters by way of siting in notches kind of like I've done with the lookouts otherwise there could be sagging.

I have seen most builds here are without the purlins and others have told me that here in mid-oklahoma most everyone goes with 7/16 with rafters at 2' on center / no purlins.

Any comments about it?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on June 04, 2012, 06:34:08 PM
Personally I would have went w/ 5/8" on the roof. 7/16" is OK for the wall sheeting.  If (?) you do decide to go w/ 7/16" on the roof and decide to for go the purlins situate them where the length joints would be.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on June 04, 2012, 06:56:22 PM
i wouldnt let in 2x4's into you 2x8's. that essentially turns your rafters into 2x6's because of the notches and that wont span 15 foot if i remember correctly. regaurdless i wouldnt want 2x6 rafters


personally i owuld just go buy 5/8's sheething. how much 7/16 do you have?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 04, 2012, 08:06:12 PM
I have 32 sheets of 7/16's. I guess I jumped the gun on that one and didn't do my homework well enough. Maybe I can call my lumber company whom I've been dealing with all along and maybe they'll take them back when I buy the 5/8's. I don't think I can use the 7/16 anywhere else on my build, right?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on June 04, 2012, 09:56:48 PM
i used 7/16 plywood on my shed roof and even it is wavy. if i were closer id take it off your hands for wall sheathing but i'm not local.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 04, 2012, 10:14:37 PM
I've had people around me here say things like:

"I've been building houses for 30 years and around here we use 7/16 on 2x6's for roofs at 2' centers."

There's not many good roofs around here.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on June 04, 2012, 10:29:09 PM
i am from WI origonally. our "old" houses are 100+yo. when i moved down here i couldnt for the life of me figure.out why the realtor kept telling me to "stay away from that house, its old. it was built in the 70's" afterall my farmhouse i sold to.move here was from the late 1800's.

after being here a while and seeing the building practices i totally understand. no building codes isnt a good thing
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: suburbancowboy on June 05, 2012, 09:51:06 AM
I'm in the same boat with lots of extra 7/16's osb.  I plan on using my left overs to build a large shed.  Could you use a shed???
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 05, 2012, 10:02:42 AM
Tuesday Morning - June 5th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Hey thanks for the post CjAl and suburbancowboy.

I resolved my 7/16's osb problem. I called my lumber company and they are coming out today to pickup my 32 sheets of 7/16's osb and replace them with 32 sheets of 5/8's. It cost me $141.22 more.

Cursed 7/16's!!!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on June 05, 2012, 10:23:38 AM
Quote from: ajbremer on June 05, 2012, 10:02:42 AM
Tuesday Morning - June 5th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Hey thanks for the post CjAl and suburbancowboy.

I resolved my 7/16's osb problem. I called my lumber company and they are coming out today to pickup my 32 sheets of 7/16's osb and replace them with 32 sheets of 5/8's. It cost me $141.22 more.

Cursed 7/16's!!!

Wise move aj. A small price to pay for peace of mind.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 05, 2012, 12:21:31 PM
Thanks go to all who post and put up with me.

I wish I could kick back and go through a bunch of builds like I used to before I started. But now that I've started and am trying to do all I can every single day, I don't have much time to study other builds and compliment on all y'alls like I used to here on countryplans.

I am glad that I did spend many months heavily going through builds here before I started my own build. I'm just hoping that I'll remember most of the stuff that I've learned.

I'll tell ya what, being up there on that loft every day lately, doing the roof stuff, there is no shade what so ever and the temps here in mid Oklahoma are getting in the 90's. I remember last year when I started to dig my very first pier hole. it was 115 degrees!

Thank you all again!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 05, 2012, 12:28:37 PM
Hey, I just came across something on yahoo's front page ads this afternoon.

It talks about the countries most dangerous jobs, fatality wise. In the top ten, cops are only number 10 and fishermen are number 1.

Well, guess what's number 6...roofers!

I would have never guessed that. I'm going to be extra safe when I get up there, that's for sure. Here's the link to the article:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/the-10-most-dangerous-jobs.html (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/the-10-most-dangerous-jobs.html)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on June 05, 2012, 01:02:48 PM
AJ you can have the high temps.  This morning it was 43F and now it is only 68F.  Last week it was 85-90F and I was wishing for Fall.  Now I would be satisfied with Summer.  Need to get that roof sheeted so you can have some shade.   ;)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on June 05, 2012, 01:10:20 PM
its been 95 here. i so wanted to be where you are by this time of the year. i didnt want to be digging holes when its 90 at 8am
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on June 05, 2012, 05:37:14 PM
Quote from: ajbremer on June 04, 2012, 05:32:56 PM
.... said that it would be wise to put 2x4 purlins across the length of the rafters by way of siting in notches....


Don't listen to that and do not do it Al. That'll turn your 2x8's into 2x6's.   Use H-clips on the panel edges; they will help set the spacing and help connect the edges together.   Some folks use 5/8" OSB to make the roof panels more rigid.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 05, 2012, 05:41:45 PM
Thanks MountainDon,

As I mentioned in a few posts up Don, I traded in my 7/16's osb and got 32 sheets of 5/8's osb so now I won't do any purlins. I'll just lay'em on the rafters.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on June 05, 2012, 05:47:02 PM
oooops I didn't read far ewnough along..... too much getting caught up.  ;D
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: UK4X4 on June 05, 2012, 07:19:52 PM
Al- all your questions and the input from others has almost made your thread a how to guide- discussing the pitfalls along the way.

For me its a daily read !
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 05, 2012, 07:56:57 PM
Hey thanks a lot UK4X4.

This countryplan place and its people have been an immeasurable help to me. I've said it over and over again here, these few dedicated people who really know their stuff are people that everyone here should listen too.

Everytime a countryplan plan is sold to someone, there should be a page within the added 'readme' booklet that tells about the strengths of using this forum, the science of how to post, ask questions, proper etiquette, placement of pics and videos, examples, and most of all - testimonies of personal accomplishments.

We've talked about a donate button here for helpful individuals in past posts. I think that there should be a donate button for this site itself - especially for those people who never have purchased plans from here but have gotten worthy information and just want to pay back and help out a little bit. Just a thought.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on June 05, 2012, 08:44:15 PM
I wonder about having a thread where people can post links to what they consider to be very good posts explaining one detail or another. From that condensing snips from those posts into "articles" or "tip pages" on particular subjects. when someone asks an oft repeated question, say on foundations, we don't have to repeat reams of information, just point to the article for initial reading and then they can jump off from there. We seem to get stuck down in the trenches and quite frankly after the tenth go on the same topic you begin to skip stuff and get lazy in responses.  The questioner gets to read the best of the best and then everyone moves up a rung questionwise.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on June 05, 2012, 09:22:55 PM
but then what would we argue about?  :)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on June 05, 2012, 10:04:14 PM
It was kind of funny the other day. We were on page 1 of a chapter in an engineering text arguing. I turned the page, and there was uncharted arguing territory  :)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on June 06, 2012, 12:01:10 AM
if all else fails there is always religion and politics.



al, i come here every day to check your thread too. i like the honesty of it
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: JavaMan on June 06, 2012, 06:59:55 AM
Quote from: Don_P on June 05, 2012, 08:44:15 PM
We seem to get stuck down in the trenches and quite frankly after the tenth go on the same topic you begin to skip stuff and get lazy in responses.  The questioner gets to read the best of the best and then everyone moves up a rung questionwise.

No, that was Squirl that was stuck down in the trench, wasn't it? (http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=10998.0 (http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=10998.0)) [rofl2] - sorry squirl ... I just couldn't help myself. d*

I agree, tho.  It would be kinda nice to have a "Here's the definitive argument about that topic" links page ;)

And just so I don't drift too far - I always have to pop in here when I see that it's got a new post.  There was even a few things I picked up here in the last month that I wish I'd known about 15 months ago!  Would have saved me some time and money
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ColchesterCabin on June 06, 2012, 09:35:08 AM
I am in a lull with my project as well waiting on finalization of my floorplan which is cool cause it gives me that time to go back through the site and correct my future plans and plan accordingly into the future. Al looks spectacular.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 06, 2012, 11:29:00 AM
Wednesday Morning - 6/06/2012 Mid-Oklahoma

I have my lookouts all framed in. Now I just have to snap a line and cut them and hang the barge rafters.

One mistake I made on my 2 ridge beams is that I forgot to lay a piece of house wrap on the very top of the beams that are together so that rain wouldn't get in between the crack. Well, there was a storm a few days ago and the rain got in there and now it has cupped at the top. Another mistake is that I didn't finish screwing the 2 beams together all the way, especially at the top. Well, I guess the combination of that rain and the force of the rafters at the bottom has made the beams cup and begin to separate at the very top.

Now I'm going to clamp and use some really long screws and see what I can do. I'm also going to cover that seem up like I was going to in the beginning.

I uploaded a couple of videos from this mornings work. Here is a video of the 32 sheets of 7/16's being traded for 5/8's:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPk4_3N48s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPk4_3N48s)

And here is the main video from today showing me up there at the top at 30 feet and then going down below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuvlPBCeEQw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuvlPBCeEQw)

I bought a neat little booth at a yard sale, it's like a restaurant both, small and it fits nicely up there in the loft. The thing feels like it weighs 250lbs! Here is me sitting at my booth in the loft with countryplans online:

(https://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m489/ajbremer/6-06-2012booth1.jpg)

(https://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m489/ajbremer/6-06-2012booth2.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 06, 2012, 04:47:55 PM
Well, I've done a few more videos showing the cupping problem at the top of the ridge beams. This video shows just how large the gap really came to be up there. I clamp it in this video and then screwed it in many places more.

I had a friend ask me if I glued them together. Well, I didn't really think about doing that but I really should have. Even though I lifted them up there one by one, I could have glued them together and screwed them much more then I did at first. When I first put those 2 beams up there. I nailed them together and then also screwed them in a few places but kind of roughed it in. I told myself that I would add more screws and nails later. Well, then I began to put my rafters up and forgot about adding even more nails and screws. Then a storm came.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuhXMLmEQiI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuhXMLmEQiI)

This next video below shows how the bottom of those beams are fairly tight together, they didn't separate hardly at all:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnfztcdGAE0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnfztcdGAE0)

And then I covered the top of the ridge beam with a tarp:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hp3EmXn0nmY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hp3EmXn0nmY)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 06, 2012, 10:08:27 PM
I guess I'm going to have to purchase 4 - 2x8x18 footers for my barge rafters. I just realized that when I went to cut the angle on those 2x8x16's for my rafters, I almost used up the whole board. There was only about an 1/8th or 1/4 inch left on the board. That means that 16 footer barge rafters won't be able to reach each other up there at the top. I had planed on the barge rafters meeting each other and possibly adding some sort of gusset to help them stay together.

I'm guessing that if I was to use the whole length of a 16 footer for a barge rafter, cut the ~45 degree at the end of it, and have the rafter tail flush with all the other rafter tails - there would be something like 1-1/2" to 2" of air between them up there at the top.

I've thought about putting some kind of ridge extension up there going out to meet the barge ends but I'm not sure how that could be possible. I have enough 2x8x16's left and I was hoping to use them.

Any suggestions?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on June 07, 2012, 06:15:53 AM
The gusset and a fill between the tops sounds fine, a vertical block will probably have more grain to avoid splitting than a horizontal fill. You can run a horizontal fill block back to the wall up there if it helps with nailing. This is getting into "backup" more than structural framing, framing to hold finish materials up.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 07, 2012, 11:59:24 AM
Thursday Morning - June 7th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Got my 1st barge rafter into position so far this morning. I thought I would 'cage it in' so I put a 2x4 against the existing rafter tails, another 2x4 against the wall and under the rafters, and one more up high and under the rafters - all boards protrud beyond the lookouts. This then made a way to hold the barge rafter into position. Then I strapped it with a couple of straps to keep it safely in its position until I get up there and nail it flush to and against the lookouts. I have 7 lookouts each side, used 2x6's, and their 2 feet from each other.

Now the way I got it up and into position by myself (and a little help from the wife) was this. I lifted it up and laid it flat on top of the lookouts. My wife was there near the bottom steadying it for me. I slowly slid it over near the very edge and then simply held on tight while letting it slowly and easily fall into position - that's it.

After it's all nailed, I'll get up top and cut the ~45 degree plumb cut to match the other rafter. They probably won't reach each other so I'll have to do some thinking up there as I've mentioned in previous posts above.

I took a picture of it and also made a nice video of how I did it. Check that video out please:

Here's the picture, the video link is after it:

(https://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m489/ajbremer/6-07-2012barge1.jpg)

Here's the video of how I got my first barge rafter into position:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnkkuDP1evY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnkkuDP1evY)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 07, 2012, 01:44:42 PM
Thursday Afternoon - June 7th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

My Dad, Clarence Bremer, passed away the day before yesterday at 83 years old June 5th, 2012 @ 1pm. He was in an assisted living home near Zolfo Springs, Florida. He was my mothers companion for 57 years and my dad for almost 56 years.

He never built a countryplan place like I'm doing but he worked construction for just a few years and then went along with my mom into GM and they both retired from there after 35 or so years. I remember when he built the external 2 car garage at the house where I 'grew tall', he did a great job on it but I paid no attention to what he was doing, I was probably 12 or 13 years old at the time and didn't care about that stuff.

Maybe 3 or 4 years ago I wrote a song about my relationship with my father. I got to play it for him a year or so ago and he was happy. I used my cheap old Casio keyboard to do the drum track and played my acoustic guitar and sang and recorded it myself. The track came out pretty good for being cheap and free software.

Here's the song I wrote awhile back, "Love You Dad" : http://hockeya.com/music/love_you_dad.mp3 (http://hockeya.com/music/love_you_dad.mp3)

Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: JavaMan on June 07, 2012, 03:02:55 PM
AJ, I am sorry for your loss.  It sounds, though, like you have some truly great memories to carry with you.  It is so true that we just don't listen sometimes when we're younger to the wisdom of those put in charge of our youth.  I know I wish I'd listened to my dad when he talked about birds and gardening.

I hope you and yours are able to celebrate a life well lived. (insert smiley raising a toast here)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 07, 2012, 03:40:19 PM
Thank you kindly JavaMan
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: pmichelsen on June 07, 2012, 04:34:48 PM
Quote from: ajbremer on June 07, 2012, 01:44:42 PM
...he did a great job on it but I paid no attention to what he was doing, I was probably 12 or 13 years old at the time and didn't care about that stuff.

Isn't that the truth, had I taken the trade I would have been a fourth generation plumber and when I was in high school my father would always try and get me to come work with him and I always had better things to do. Now I often do side jobs a lot of them being plumbing jobs and I always have to call him and without fail his first response is "you know I tried to teach you all of this when you were younger..."

Sorry for your loss...
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ColchesterCabin on June 07, 2012, 04:56:24 PM
AJ, sorry to hear about your loss man, I listen to your song and read your words several times and I think he would have been proud to see what you've done with this build. Hopefully you shared that song with him. I recently lost my grand mother and when we buried her we bruried her iwth my grand father. Unfortunately we don't listen as kids and we always seem to look back with a ittle regret. I know I have as well!

Keep rocking the build man....
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on June 07, 2012, 05:30:40 PM
AJ sorry for your loss.   :(  We just celebrated my fathers 86th Birthday yesterday.  There is a song which pretty well sums up most Father/Son relationships but I can't recall the name but has the wording as "he's grown up just like me".  That pretty well sums up most.  I know he is proud of what you have accomplished in life. Mine is and constantly praises my accomplishments.  He worked in a similar field as I did for some 42 years.   Keep hammering.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 08, 2012, 01:00:16 PM
Friday June 8th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

I'll need some help here. I have both barge rafters up on my east gable end. One is nailed in place and the other is waiting for me to cut the angle at the top before I nail it.

The 2x8x16 footers are not long enough to meet each other perfectly so I'll have to form a gusset and/or make a ridge beam/board extension.

I made a video of the 'situation' and ask for comments in it. I asked about this in some posts above and got some suggestions but now you'll be able to see for yourself what's up.

Here's a picture, the video is after:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/6-08-2012bargeangle.jpg)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFhH2xCYLas (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFhH2xCYLas)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Duane Flanders on June 08, 2012, 06:52:34 PM
I have been lurking watching your build.  It looks like you are doing a good job.

Why don't you mark where the boards cross at the top and bottom and make your cuts.  There would be a small square missing at the top, but if you are going to be putting on facia boards and soffits underneath, it will never be seen.  This isn't a structural component so the little bit missing shouldn't be a problem.

Sorry to hear about you loss.

Redoverfarm, The song is Cat's in the Cradle by Harry Chapin
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: kenhill on June 08, 2012, 07:02:57 PM
There is also Father and Son by Cat Stevens.

Harry Chapin came to my college 3 times in 4 years (Geneseo, NY).  Tragic to loose him so early in his career.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Bob S. on June 08, 2012, 08:50:59 PM
   I think Duane has it right on. No problem just cover it up and drive on.
   I love your build and realy appreciate that you are taking the time to post all your problems and insights. I like that you are a rank amateur and how you are solving your problems.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on June 08, 2012, 09:52:57 PM
I'm sorry to hear about your Dad Al.
Mom has been making dad thin his "empire" so he doesn't catch the bus and leave her with a pile of junk to clean up. His idea is to bring all that good junk to my house. Whenever my wife has the estate sale I'm sure people are going to be wondering just what to bid on a set of old box locks and door hinges and why I would ever save them. I was a kid when we took them off  :).

I usually scab on a piece of 2x, notched around the top lookout, to the inside of the fly and splice them together when they are short. A piece of scrap osb sawed to lap onto both sides and screwed to the inside would also do it. A chunk standing vertical for fill in between flys at the peak could be screwed in from the backside. Often on 12/12's rather than mitering the peak of the fascia I'll run one by the other to lap the stacked joints. 
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on June 09, 2012, 06:50:42 AM
Don_P I think what aj is struggling with is that he is not going to finish the soffit area due to time restraints and probably is debating on what it's appearence will be with the splice.  Once the framework is in place it shouldn't take long to cover the soffit area but maybe it is a little daunting haveing never attempted this stage of building. If done correctly I don't think it will be that noticable.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 09, 2012, 07:42:54 AM
Saturday Morning - June 9th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Thanks guys for all of the response, they get me to thinking and are a great help and I need all of that I can get!

I didn't have time to post a few more videos yesterday but I've finished them now.

This first video shows how I can reach out so far to nail a couple of 2x4's to the last rafter tails to act as an end support while I slide the fly rafter into position. Remember, I also have a stick of 2x4 under the last 2 rafters and sticking out beyond the lookouts to act as 1 of the 2 main supports, the other main support 2x4 is under those same last 2 rafters up at the top. Together, these three 2x4 sticks freely support the fly rafter.

I initially lean it into position and then strap around it to keep it in place while I reach way out there to nail it to the ends of the looks outs.

This second video actually shows the whole process of me sliding the fly rafter on top of the lookouts and then dropping it into position. My wife was taking the videos and she had some settings incorrect so they are not the usual clearness of my other videos - especially this 1st video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ik0pdPEuHuI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ik0pdPEuHuI)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAEFYCg60rY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAEFYCg60rY)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: UK4X4 on June 09, 2012, 12:58:38 PM
Being a Brit - we have posh names for "Architectural" details

The words I found for for covering up a rough joint in a facia or barge board are

Barge  board finial
facia Finial
Gable end finial

everything from a simple diamond shape to a gargoyle
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ColchesterCabin on June 09, 2012, 05:14:32 PM
come on AL doesn't a gargoyle soon awesome. I think they hide all kinds...lol
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 09, 2012, 06:11:12 PM
Hey, you guys are cool!

Well, I did it. I tried using both sides of my brain to come up with a solution to my upper fly rafter joint situation.

I figured that the best way that it 'should have been done' was to have my beam long enough and the fly rafters would simply attach to the beam just like all the other rafters did. So, that's what I did.

I have 3 pictures and one video, the video is pretty informative and revealing so check it out if ya can.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/6-09-2012flyjoint4.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/6-09-2012flyjoint6.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/6-09-2012flyjoint3.jpg)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FKUQxhs4cg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FKUQxhs4cg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on June 09, 2012, 06:27:03 PM
Way to go AJ.  Going to make a carpenter out of you yet. :)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ColchesterCabin on June 09, 2012, 06:46:25 PM
Nicely done, very creative solution to your problem :)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 10, 2012, 06:28:30 AM
Sunday Morning - June 10th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

After I spent so much time figuring out the barge rafter installation process on my east gable end, which is now complete, I started on my west gable end near the end of the day yesterday. Wow, it went so much faster because I had the system down.

I snapped a line across my lookout ends, cut them with the circular saw, installed those 3 temporary 2x4's that I use to hold up the fly, laid my fly rafter flat wise onto the lookouts and then slide it out and down into position, strapped it, nailed it, and then removed the temporary 2x's - all within about an hour and a half!

Did I overkill by way of using 2x6's on 2 foot centers for my lookouts, is that a little too much, could I have used 2x4's on 4 foot centers? That's a lot of weight sticking out there isn't it? I'm glad I did do it the way I did, I think it'll be really strong once all the roof is on BUT I still should be very careful about putting my weight over that protruding area while I'm working up there.

I have read that notching the end rafter for lookouts is the only exception to the rule for never notching rafters because of weakness. The reason the end rafter can be notched is because it is studded on a load bearing wall (the gable end).

Here's the south side view:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/6-09-2012southbarge.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on June 10, 2012, 07:49:32 AM
You are right regarding notching the rafter at the wall, it is not a spanning member.

I've wondered whether to mention the difference in lookout methods, but here we are so let's.
Flatways 2x's are marginal for overhangs. In your case you chose this method and I think it is fine in your climate. The 2x6's are probably overkill there but since you are using them as a ladder and understand the implications of going outboard, tearing out inboard can also happen. A 2x6 with another nail and some more meat doesn't bother me. I try to keep my weight near the notch.

The lookout laying flat has much less bending strength than if it were up on edge, I posted pics of that method a few pages back. As wind and snow loads increase that is the best way to frame the overhang. As it gets windier from there, start hurricane tieing those upright lookouts down to the sheathed wall.

At the weakest end of that  series of methods is the hung on "hog trough" a foot wide 2x4 ladder nailed to the wall and held up by the sheathing. You can generally spot them driving around and sure know it when you step on one.

I'm not sure if I mentioned it before when you weren't sure if you'd be able to frame overhangs. In the northeast the old Cape Cod style of abbreviated overhangs was all about ice damming in poorly insulated and vented buildings. If there was snow up there it melted, ran down and refroze into a dam on any protruding overhang. The pooling water finally ran inside after the dam grew high enough and the lake was over the warm interior. They needed to get the melt off before it could refreeze. A detail for a region and a time.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on June 10, 2012, 10:46:12 AM
Don_P I have always practiced to vent the soffit area on the lookout rafters as well as the house rafters.  But then again it was only benifical if you used a ridge vent.   Speaking of the soffit I think that AJ will have to get creative.  While the matching beam protrusion in the ridge of the barge rafter he has created another small inconvience when it comes to the soffit.  The beam demensions allow it to drop below the rafter thickness so convientional soffit placement and attachment is challanged.  If hindsight is 20/20 the ridge extension should have probably been cut down heightwise to match the rafter heigth.  What was taken off the bottom would have been concealed (in comparison with the house ridge) by the soffit and wall sheeting.  I guess he could eliminate that pitch at the very top and place a portion of the soffit flat (dropped down below that beam bottom) or just have that little triangle present.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 11, 2012, 09:02:52 AM
Monday Morning - June 11th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Ok, I finally am finished with all of my barge rafter work and now I only have 2 items to mess with before I actually start to lay down my 5/8's roof sheets. Therefore, I have a few questions.

My 20x30 1-1/2 Story Cottage Countryplans uses 22-1/2" long vent blocks that include ganged cut notches with screening. It shows the notches to be 1-1/2" deep.

I've also read here where I can just use blocks between each rafter and each block should be 1" to 1-1/2" below the rafter top for venting. Also, I can put them in perpendicular to the rafters or plumb with the wall. That's a lot of choices, which one is the simplest, which one is the best? I like the idea of those blocks being plumb with the wall.

After I get my blocking in, then it's time for me to put on my fascia board. I'm getting mixed up in knowing the difference between sub-fascia and just fascia. Is sub-fascia the main board that will go against the plumb-cut rafter tails and just fascia is a board that goes over the sub?

I also have read that I have to drop down my fascia board about 1-1/2" below the rafter end so that the roof sheets will go over it. I'm pretty sure I understand that concept. I'll just put a straight edge on top of the rafters and position the fascia board to fall right below it.

Anyway, I'm ready to put in my blocking between the rafters now and instead of gang cutting those notches I think the best thing is to nail them in plumb with the wall, on top of the very top plate, flush to the outside, and 1" to 1-1/2" below the rafter top/under the sheets. Then, I'll install baffles between each rafter bay that will go all the way up to the top and the air will come out at the ridge vent. Am I correct in my thinking?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on June 11, 2012, 09:30:36 AM
its all preferance. i like them flat with the wall and an angle cut on top to match the roof. but i admit it is a lot easier to put them in with the pitch of the rafters and not do that angle cut. you can do that v notch or drill two holes in them. seen it both ways.

obviously you are leaving the rafters exposed and not boxing in the soffits correct? cause you dont need to do that if you box them.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on June 11, 2012, 09:33:54 AM
your making me feel real lazy
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 11, 2012, 10:34:13 AM
Hey, thanks for the response CjAl,

I guess I'm thinking wrong, I AM planning to box in the soffit area because I don't want the rafters exposed but I thought that I still need the vent area above the blocking.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on June 11, 2012, 10:44:18 AM
you dont need screening in them because you will put it on the soffet vents when you box them in. although it wouldnt hurt, kinda like a second line of defense for bugs. i know around here we have so many roaches in the trees you need ever bit of help you can get.

since your boxing them in i would just block them paralell to the rafters, leave an inch or inch and a half or whatever you need to slide those roof vent forms in there and then spray foam the gaps.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on June 11, 2012, 11:49:25 AM
Quote from: ajbremer on June 11, 2012, 09:02:52 AM
Monday Morning - June 11th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Ok, I finally am finished with all of my barge rafter work and now I only have 2 items to mess with before I actually start to lay down my 5/8's roof sheets. Therefore, I have a few questions.

My 20x30 1-1/2 Story Cottage Countryplans uses 22-1/2" long vent blocks that include ganged cut notches with screening. It shows the notches to be 1-1/2" deep.

I've also read here where I can just use blocks between each rafter and each block should be 1" to 1-1/2" below the rafter top for venting. Also, I can put them in perpendicular to the rafters or plumb with the wall. That's a lot of choices, which one is the simplest, which one is the best? I like the idea of those blocks being plumb with the wall.

After I get my blocking in, then it's time for me to put on my fascia board. I'm getting mixed up in knowing the difference between sub-fascia and just fascia. Is sub-fascia the main board that will go against the plumb-cut rafter tails and just fascia is a board that goes over the sub?

I also have read that I have to drop down my fascia board about 1-1/2" below the rafter end so that the roof sheets will go over it. I'm pretty sure I understand that concept. I'll just put a straight edge on top of the rafters and position the fascia board to fall right below it.

Anyway, I'm ready to put in my blocking between the rafters now and instead of gang cutting those notches I think the best thing is to nail them in plumb with the wall, on top of the very top plate, flush to the outside, and 1" to 1-1/2" below the rafter top/under the sheets. Then, I'll install baffles between each rafter bay that will go all the way up to the top and the air will come out at the ridge vent. Am I correct in my thinking?
\
AL the reason to cut the notches at the top is that if you drill below that for vent holes the insulation will cover them up as the insulation will be all the way to the outside of your top plate.

Maybe I misunderstood you previously in that you stated that you were not going to do the soffit at this time because of your HOA requiring it to be completed on the exterior in a specified time.

Your sub-fascia board is the board that gets attched to your wall sheeting/top plate which should be parallel(level) to the fascia board on the end of your rafter tails.  That is what you attach your soffit to.  Depending on what material you are going to use ( ???) will determine the manner of attachment. Some people use a 1X or2X nailed to the oustide of your rafter tails.  Then come back with another 1X and let it drop below the previous one say 1-1/2".  That covers the edge of your soffit material. 

Just remember that your drip edge should be wide on the bottom of your sheeting to overlap tthe top of  your fascia board  that is nailed on the end of your rafter tails.

If you are going to build your soffit in CjAl is right you do not need the screening as the boxing will keep bugs out and the vent's themself will have screening on the back side or you can add screen to that particular area. In regards to venting and screening you haven't stated the type of vents you plan on having. With your design it would probably be suited with a ridge vent. You need some "cobra" type vent material on the ridge area if using shingle ridge caps or if using rigid plastic protruding ridge vent it should have the screening material already present.  I made my own but I admit I am cheap ;) using screening nailed over the ridge vent area followed by 1/4" rabbit wire or hardware cloth ( for bats) then used my metal ridge cap.

Here is a little DIY I had bookmarked which has some examples of soffit, fasic and the like.

http://www.hometime.com/howto/projects/framing/frame_5.htm
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 11, 2012, 01:13:51 PM
Thank you CjAl and redoverfarm,

My main objective is to get those sheets on as soon as possible and then do anything else that I can after the sheets are on.

I know I have to put that blocking in between the rafters before I put the sheets on because there would be no way to swing a hammer with sheets on. BUT, could I get away with putting the sheets on the roof and then putting the fascia and soffits on after the sheets are down?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on June 11, 2012, 01:49:02 PM
they can be toenailed in. thats where a nail gun sure comes on handy though.

if you figure out what material you want to use for facia just overhang the roof sheeting enough to.cover the thickness of that material and then you can finish it later. myself, i like the open soffit look.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on June 11, 2012, 02:04:29 PM
Quote from: ajbremer on June 11, 2012, 01:13:51 PM
Thank you CjAl and redoverfarm,

My main objective is to get those sheets on as soon as possible and then do anything else that I can after the sheets are on.

I know I have to put that blocking in between the rafters before I put the sheets on because there would be no way to swing a hammer with sheets on. BUT, could I get away with putting the sheets on the roof and then putting the fascia and soffits on after the sheets are down?

Yes by all means get your sheeting on.  Then when it comes time to do the fascia/soffit just push your fascia board up until it hits the overhanging roof sheeting and nail in place.  Just "think" what you are going to use for the fascia steps and how much you need to allow the roof sheeting to overhang to cover.  Don't go too far though.  If you decide to use coil stock or metal to cover your fascia then it slips in behind the bottom of the drip edge.  I usually go 3/4-1".
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on June 11, 2012, 08:56:57 PM
This was a shed sketchup I had that shows the blocking between rafters. The plumb and level cut rafter ends with the subfascia nailed flush to the bottom level cut and the top outside corner planing in with the top edge of the rafters. The fascia will nail to the sub and the fly and will hang down enough to cover the soffit thickness plus a pleasing reveal ~1/2-3/4".

(https://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x109/windyhilll/18x242storyshopwithlowshedsD.jpg)

Do get clips to usewith the roof ply in between rafters on the joint between sheets .
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 12, 2012, 03:25:07 AM
K, that's a great illustration - totally understandable. Blocking is 1" to 1-1/2" down from top of rafters right?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on June 12, 2012, 05:42:23 AM
Yup,
I doodled more on the model for soffit nailers, I'll post that soon.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on June 12, 2012, 11:47:19 AM
Al trying to stay one step ahead of you.  A couple things come to mind in your next steps if you have given any thoughts toward your finished roof.  I believe you said that you were going with shingles.  You need to invest in some "ice guard" in the lower 3-6' of the eves.  It is self adhesive and goes on right after the drip edge from the eve edge toward the ridge.  If you think it will be sometime before you actually add the shingles might I suggest "Titanium Synthetic Felt" verses the 15 or 30# felt.  It will extend your interval time before actually putting on your shingles.  I had mine on for 8 months without any water damage to the sheeting.  It is installed using cap nails vs roofing nails and staples as used in felt paper.  Both good products.

http://roofing.owenscorning.com/homeowner/accessories/ice-and-water-barrier/

http://www.interwrap.com/titanium/udl_30_FB.html
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on June 14, 2012, 09:40:19 AM
What happened to AL. Hope he didn't fall off the ladder.   ;)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on June 14, 2012, 06:54:54 PM
Al is fine last we pm'ed, he's tending to family, we should be hearing from him soon.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on June 14, 2012, 07:16:31 PM
Quote from: Don_P on June 14, 2012, 06:54:54 PM
Al is fine last we pm'ed, he's tending to family, we should be hearing from him soon.

Got to wondering he usually recaps in the mornings. Hasn't been one in the past two.  Glad he's OK
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on June 14, 2012, 08:13:21 PM
I'm here!  oh wait, you mean that other Al guy.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 17, 2012, 08:17:34 PM
Sunday Night - June 17th, 2012 @ 8:02pm Mid-Oklahoma

Hi guys and gals,

I just got back home from driving to Zolfo Springs, Florida for my Dad's memorial, I was away for 6 days total and just got back a few hours ago. It was about a 1,700 mile round trip. I drove through Oklahoma, Arkansas, Tennessee, Mississippi, Georgia, and Florida. The lowest gas price I found was $3.06 a gallon and I think that was in Georgia somewhere. Our 2009 Chevy Equinox did real good.

Here at home, I don't think it ever really rained hard at all since I've been gone. I know it rained one time and I think it was really light. The house is sitt'in there waiting for me to get into it once again and I surely will come starting tomorrow morning, as long as I don't have car lag.

I appreciate everybody coming back here and checking out on me once in a while, thank you very much all of you for your support.

Ok, tonight maybe I'll get back into dreaming about soffits, fascias, eaves, shingles, and stuff like that.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on June 17, 2012, 08:26:39 PM
glad you made it back okay. i just got back from atlanta myself and will be out pouring concrete in the morning
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 17, 2012, 08:34:14 PM
I hope you had a great trip CjAl, have a great new week.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on June 17, 2012, 10:48:07 PM
I'm glad you had a safe trip Al.
This is a little more doodling on the same model from my lookout drawing above.
(https://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x109/windyhilll/soffitnailers.jpg)

The far left 2x4 in this drawing is the subfascia. In this case a 1x6 fascia will cover it. The top corners either plane in with the roof or are ripped at the roof pitch.

The subfascia determines the level cut on the rafter tails. When that is all done, for a level eave soffit, a ledger is attached to the wall level with the sub. Nailers are attached between the sub and the wall ledger and nailed to the rafter tails. Nail with an eye to making it strong, the wind works on overhangs. The level soffit sheathing is nailed to the... nailers, tight to the fascia, a little gap at the wall which is covered by siding and trim.

I prefer to put the return at the wall line so that is how I drew it here (the sheathing is not shown for clarity)
The rake soffit has a wall nailer that is in plane with the fly, I show it along the outboard rafter just under the lookouts. The soffit will nail to the underside of the fly and the wall nailer. You can run blocking along each lookout for more nailing if you want, it will make it stronger.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 18, 2012, 12:06:26 PM
Monday Morning - June 18th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Ok, back to the regular life of building a house every day, right after this next cup... c*

Thanks for the picture and trying to help me understand soffit stuff. I have read and re-read Don_P's last post that explains the details in my situation but I don't understand a few things and terminologies.

What's the difference between a soffit and a rake-soffit? I think I might know. Is the rake-soffit the soffit that goes under the barge rafter all the way up to the very top at the gable end and the eave soffit the one that goes along the rafter ends level to the ground?

I edited the Don_P's picture with text so that I could better understand what things are:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/6-18-2012soffit-understanding.jpg)

I would like to use 2x4s for my subfascia board. This next picture has the rafters at a level angle but you can still see where I'll be making my cuts. Is there anything wrong with me using 2x4 width as the subfascia?

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/6-18-2012rafter-ends.jpg)

I am also planning on using 2x6's for the blocking in between the rafters, that will leave 1-1/2" for a vent gap.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on June 18, 2012, 05:58:25 PM
Al excuse me if I say it doesn't look like the marks are correct or maybe a camera thing. I usually determine the width of the soffit (including sub facia thickness)you are going to make.  Mark that on the bottom (excluding sub facia) of the rafter(tail) from the wall.  Now take you level from that mark and get a plumb line to the top of the rafter on the rafter tail.  That will be your plumb cut.  Then you place your block(nailer) bottom even with the bottom of your rafter tail (horizontal) and to the end of your rafter tail (Plumb cut) and to your ledger board.  I make the plumb cut full width of the rafter rather than to the middle as you have pictured.  Make sense?

At least that is how I do it.  Not exactly what Don_P proposed but it will work just as well and only requires one cut rather than multiple cuts.   It makes the soffit a little lower on the wall but if you want it higher on the wall then just move your plumb cut further up the rafter. 
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on June 18, 2012, 09:07:45 PM
You have most of the terminology right Al. An eave is the level soffit, a rake is the angled gable soffit. you've misidentified the rake soffit nailer, it is attached full length along the last rafter, on the gable end. The rake soffit nails to the fly rafter and the rake nailer.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 18, 2012, 10:40:29 PM
I see the rake-soffit nailer now Don and I get it (as far as that's concerned).

So many options on this soffit/fascia thing. What should be the determinator - The width of the board that is used for the subfascia? The width of the board that is used for the soffit?

As far as I can determine (which isn't very far at this point) there are 3 main boards that are visible externally and they make up the eave soffit:

1) SubFascia
2) Fascia
3) Soffit

It seems to me that only one of these can and maybe should be a standard sized 2x and that's the subfascia - I guess it usually is a 2x4 or a 2x6. The fascia and the soffit are usually 1x's? I'm just going to have to search for a really nice diagram that'll make me understand this part of my build.

I'm kind of wondering if it all matters what size things are. As long as there's a subfascia, a board over the subfacia which is the fascia, and a board covering the underside of it all (the soffit). Does it matter how long the plumb and level cut really are as long as these 3 boards are doing their job and covering the whole 'situation'?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on June 19, 2012, 07:39:14 AM
The plumb and level cuts on the rafter tail are determined by the subfascia size. The bottom of the sub is flush with the bottom level cut, the top outside corner of the sub planes in with the tops of the rafters. The sub is not seen in the finished product. The soffit attaches over it, the nailers, and the wall ledger. The fascia covers the sub, the soffit edge and has a pleasing reveal hanging down as a drip edge. It usually hangs below the soffit 1/2-3/4" and is normally 3/4" material, although 2x looks nice as well, usually cedar.

The width is whatever you want or need within reason. 2' horizontal is common and about the limit for typical construction. I've often gone down to 1' for economy and have done many in between. You've already set a precedent on the rake soffits. Remember we still don't understand your porch tie in.

Soffit vent is usually a 2" wide strip running along the underside of the soffit between 2 soffit boards.

On single story homes with a steep pitch you need to watch the overhangs for getting into the doors and windows. On this build that is not a concern. If you plan carefully you can use overhangs to admit or reject sunlight. I played with ours and the orientation. The shortest day of the year with low sun angles the sun crosses the floor at noon. Tomorrow at noon the sun will just touch the edge of the floor.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 19, 2012, 11:12:25 AM
Tuesday Morning - June 19th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Once again I thank you all for information that helps me.

Today and the next few days I'll be concentrating on putting in my blocking between rafters (2x6's).

I think I'll stick with the outline that I have for making my plumb and level cuts on my rafter ends if y'all think it'll be ok.

The way I did it was, I took a small piece of 2x4 (which is what I'll be using for my subfascia, I figured - why not?) and I held it outward with the 3-1/2" side vertical (plumb) at the end of my rafters. Then I slowly moved it inward until it was to the point of being flush with the plane of the top of the rafter and then I made a pencil mark at the inner edge. Then I took a level and put it up against the pencil mark, plumb, and then drew a vertical line. Then I drew the horizontal level cut line where the bottom of the 2x4 was. Please let me know if I'm on the right track and if this will be ok.

Here's the pictures that show it:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/6-19-2012tailcuts2.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/6-19-2012tailcuts1.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/6-19-2012tailcuts5.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/6-19-2012tailcuts4.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on June 19, 2012, 12:55:47 PM
Either will work AL. I was trying to get you out of making awkward cuts off the ground.  If you decided to do it your way it's your house so be it.  Just make sure that the horizontal cut on the tail is at the bottom of where your ledger board will be positioned.   I would mark both end of the house at the point where the top of the plumb cut will be.  Then using a chaulk box snap that line.  That will give you a mark where the top of the plumb cut will be.  Then using a sliding bevel square set to the position that will be plumb toward the bottom.  Then go through and you will just have to mark each rafter with the bevel square.  No trying to hold the level plumb and occassionally being off a little.  After you have cut the plumb cuts you can use the bevel for the other as well if you choose by resetting to the different angle.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on June 19, 2012, 04:47:29 PM
John, I'm not following your method from the bottom of pg 26... a sketch or try again?
Al what you have is how I do it. I do make the sub out of the same size material as the fly... they are both subfascias and I like to try to keep the fascias pretty uniform.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on June 19, 2012, 05:55:34 PM
Quote from: Don_P on June 19, 2012, 04:47:29 PM
John, I'm not following your method from the bottom of pg 26... a sketch or try again?
Al what you have is how I do it. I do make the sub out of the same size material as the fly... they are both subfascias and I like to try to keep the fascias pretty uniform.

Apparently you have the pages reversed than I do.  Most recent for me is Page 1.  Anyway what post # are you referring to?  Sorry about the confusion. Discription is the best I can do and sometimes by the time it gets from my mind to the keyboard something may be lost in the translation.  The only one at the bottom of a page is #631.  Is that the one?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 19, 2012, 06:13:24 PM
Regarding the fly width being the same as the subfascia width, my fly is a 2x8 rafter - I was thinking about making my subfacia a 2x4? If I used a 2x8 for the eave subfascia, wouldn't that be pretty wide for that?

Anyway, today I finished on long sides worth of blocking between the rafters, here's pics:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/6-19-2012blocking.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/6-19-2012blocking2.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on June 19, 2012, 06:55:16 PM
There ya go, we're always tripping over one another for the opportunity to do more blocking  :).
Your gable end, rake fascias will be 1x or 2x10's. I like the look, well, I like multi layered foot deep overhangs. Do run some 2x8 blocking nailed to the lookouts and spanning from wall nailer to fly to hold that deep thing square. You can do that when you do soffit and fascia later unless things start curling. If it were mine, and I've been told all my taste is in my mouth, I would use a 2x8 subfascia and a 1x10 fascia. For paint grade work I like Miratek 5/4 trim. A wider fascia allows the gutter to pitch more.

Redover, sorry I was being lazy in the post pane, post #647. I'm understanding how you're finding and marking the plumb cut but at a 45 the cut is going to be about 10-1/4" tall. The subfascia needs to plane in with the roof ply up top and the soffit on its' bottom edge. How are you avoiding a level cut on the rafter tail? I'm thinking even with a 2x8 subfascia the level cut will be about 8-3/4" down the face of the plumb cut (7-1/4+1-1/2 drop to plane it in up top)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on June 19, 2012, 08:25:23 PM
Quote from: Don_P on June 19, 2012, 06:55:16 PM
There ya go, we're always tripping over one another for the opportunity to do more blocking  :).
Your gable end, rake fascias will be 1x or 2x10's. I like the look, well, I like multi layered foot deep overhangs. Do run some 2x8 blocking nailed to the lookouts and spanning from wall nailer to fly to hold that deep thing square. You can do that when you do soffit and fascia later unless things start curling. If it were mine, and I've been told all my taste is in my mouth, I would use a 2x8 subfascia and a 1x10 fascia. For paint grade work I like Miratek 5/4 trim. A wider fascia allows the gutter to pitch more.

Redover, sorry I was being lazy in the post pane, post #647. I'm understanding how you're finding and marking the plumb cut but at a 45 the cut is going to be about 10-1/4" tall. The subfascia needs to plane in with the roof ply up top and the soffit on its' bottom edge. How are you avoiding a level cut on the rafter tail? I'm thinking even with a 2x8 subfascia the level cut will be about 8-3/4" down the face of the plumb cut (7-1/4+1-1/2 drop to plane it in up top)

Don_P you are using the nailer level off the bottom of the plumb cut to the ledger on the wall which is just eliminating that extra cut.  Nail the nailer to the rafter and toenail to the ledger. The front edge of that nailer will be flush with the front edge of that plumb cut.  Yes it will create a little wider fascia. 
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 19, 2012, 08:34:17 PM
Ok, I'm pretty sure I understand what you guys are saying - I think I'm finally learning something  [cool]

Tomorrow I'll lay out some lines on the rafter tails that will be for a 2x8 subfascia just to see how that'll look but my main task will be blocking in between the rafters on the other side.

Do you suggest that I nail my subfascia on before I actually start to lay my roof sheets on? Also, if that be the case, should I put my first row of sheet edge 1" beyond the subfascia seeing that I'll be using the 1x10 fascia. In other words, the lowest edge of roof sheeting will be plumb-flush with the outside edge of the fascia? If y'alls patience is hanging on I'll take this one step further and ask: should I just go ahead and also install the fascia before I ever lay down a roof sheet?

About the gable end/rake soffit area: where should the sheets edge line up there, flush with the fascias outside edge?

To me, this roof stuff is the most difficult to understand BUT, reading all of y'alls helpful answers and getting all of this information is finally making things click (a little bit). Thank you all for your patience with me.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on June 19, 2012, 09:48:52 PM
When you're laying it out tomorrow remember you can cheat out a bit if you need, the nailers need to grab the rafter but they can support the subfascia, you can run off the corner of the rafter a bit if you need to. That'll make sense when you're up there if it doesn't now.

Yes, do install the subfascia, 3 nails from the sheet into it in each bay as you nail the ply off to the rafters. Hold the roof sheathing flush or just a bit under at the gable ends, you want no overhanging ply along the rakes. You'll set the top of the rake fascia flush with the top of the roof ply.

No don't install fascia, let's get a lid on it... well ok, that's what I always say.

I usually hook on the subfascia and pull 47-1/2" up the fly at each end and pop a line across the roof. If you did everything right, the chalkline will be right down the center of the lookouts. This is the top edge of the first row. (not the bottom corner of the sheet plumb with the outside face of the fascia, but the top outermost corner. You don't want to push the drip edge out where it can't lay on the fascia. If you missed your lookouts see if you can correct that by ripping the first row. Otherwise just use plywood clips in every bay.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 19, 2012, 10:32:17 PM
Sir, your covering all the baces, this is great! ;D

I should put all of this information in catagories and/or topics within some kind of a pdf file or a database so that when I get to a point where I know something has been said about the subject, I'll know where to go. What a gold mine this place is! (countryplans)

One thing I haven't mentioned. I WILL be creating some sort of elaborate scafolding and bracing so that I will in no way fall when I'm up there on the roof. I know those 5/8 roof sheets must be heavy and I will most likely be doing it by myself so I will be creative, you guys'll see.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 20, 2012, 09:30:37 AM
This was mentioned, "I prefer to put the return at the wall line..." within this message:
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=10641.msg158661#msg158661 (http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=10641.msg158661#msg158661).
What is a return?

I spent some time this morning drawing up this diagram showing how I perceive my fascia and soffit configuration to be. Keep in mind that the diagram is not proportionally correct. The dimensions and wood used are for my configuration. Some notes:

I notice that the main 2x8 nailer between the subfascia and the ledger does not have a large amount of surface area to nail to the rafter BUT there should be enough. Since this drawing is out of proportion I will be able to see reality when I get out there and lay this stuff out.

The soffit boards: I mentioned 1x material but I'm not sure what would be best. Remember, there are 2 soffit boards separated by a screen/vent. Can I buy some kind of 2" wide soffit vent screen and how does it connect to the 2 soffit boards?

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/6-20-2012eaveunderstanding.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: suburbancowboy on June 20, 2012, 09:36:57 AM
When I did my roof sheeting I used a double pully system tied to the highest point of the trusses.   It made the sheets only feel like 20 pounds. I tied the rope around the sheet and then pulled them up.  This works best with three people.  One on the ground, one on the pulley and one putting the sheets in place.  One can do it, but it just means lots of ladder climbing.   We did mine using this method in about 3 hours.  Best day of the build when you finally have a covered roof.  Another suggestion would be to put a board on the end of the trusses for the osb to rest against until you get them nailed on.  It makes things much easier and everything stays level.  I think I used scrap 2X4's for this.  Good luck.  The roof has been my least favorite part.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 20, 2012, 10:04:10 AM
Hey, thanks suburbancowboy,

I have been thinking hard lately about what I'll be doing to lift my sheets into position. Man, you had your sheets on in 3 hours with 3 people? That's great! I have decided to slow down a little bit on this roof build process, I believe it's very important to get it right and not be in a hurry and take shortcuts. So many things come tied together at roof time and if you put the roof on and forget about something...uh oh!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on June 20, 2012, 12:29:34 PM
might not want to slow down too much. down here we are getting a storm every other day or more. i poured concrete monday and tuesday in the rain
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: bayview on June 20, 2012, 03:46:45 PM
Al:

   Personally, I would think that a 10" fascia board would be to large . . .    (My opinion)
   Maybe, use 2X4 sub fascia and 1X6 fascia.   Trimming the rafter as you had penciled as an example.

(https://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e149/bayviewps/Fascia.jpg)

(https://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e149/bayviewps/6.jpg)

/.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 20, 2012, 08:10:22 PM
Wednesday Night - June 20th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Hey, thanks CjAl and bayview. Ya your right CjAl, I better not slow down now...I'm just saying I better not get in too much of a hurry and mess something up. Bayview, I see nothing wrong with using a shorter subfascia but I do have 2x8's left and I'm just about out of 2x6's and also I was thinking about how most of the time around here it's been pretty hot. Last year you can basically say there was no winter! I was digging my pier holes in 115 degree weather. All that to say, maybe with a longer fascia more of the house will be shaded?

Ok, I got the blocking done between the rafters on my north side now. Tomorrow it'll be time to layout my rafter end cuts. Wow, once their cut there'll be no turning back. I also plan on laying long 2x4's as lateral bracing just above where the first sheet row will be so that the rafters will be aligned properly. After that, I'll put my 2x8 subfacia on. I'm all out of 2x6's now but I do have 2x8's left. Then, when all of that's done, I should be ready to create my scafolding/stagging for lifting my sheets up to me. Maybe I'll be laying sheets on this weekend!

About the blocking that I just put in between the rafters: I noticed that there are some spots where you can see daylight between the edges and sometimes a tiny bit between the top-plate and the bottom of the blocking. Would it be wise to buy a can of foam insulation and spray around that area to make it air tight?

Thanks for all of your input. Here's a picture of my north side blocking I finished today:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120620_141847.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on June 20, 2012, 08:53:06 PM
A deeper overhang creates shade fastest, think porch. What was driving the 10" fascia in my posts is the 2x8 fly rafters.

For scaffold you can nail horizontal scaffold support boards to the end walls and to the window jacks, vertical posts to ground under the far ends, 2x blocking under the horizontals at posts, walls and ends, then scaffold planking on top. A few X braces and it should be good.

It usually takes both of us for the first row, sliding the sheet down to the line from above and flushing up the ends. For the second and upper rows I usually slide the sheets out between the rafters, stand on the roof and pull them out from above. Grab it in the middle, lift it out, turn 90 and slap it on the rafters in front of you, slide it down into clips, nail the bottoms, pull the tops to layout and nail off. Michelle is usually stocking the sheets, popping layout lines for nailing and cutting on the floor while I work topside.

If this doesn't work google soffit return and hit the images tab, many styles are shown.
http://www.google.com/search?q=soffit+return&hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&prmd=ivnsfd&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=qHbiT_yTCOnw0gHSwomvAw&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ

For steeper pitches I prefer the return flush with the wall, the other simple alternative is the "pork chop" where the return is out at the fly. On a steep pitched roof the pork chop gets mighty big and kind of fugly. Or you can get fancy.

Your drawing is correct, the rafter when in full scale is much deeper proportionally.
Soffit vent is sold as a 2" wide strip with out turned flanges to lip under the soffit boards. If we're doing wood Tongue &Groove soffits, I rip the tongue off the pieces facing the soffit vent leaving the V bevelled edge. I start at the fascia and work towards the wall. Strip soffit vent  needs to be dead straight, it is an obvious sight line. Hardi makes a 5/16" thick vented cement soffit board, aluminum and vinyl also has vented soffit panels. If you buy the expensive vinyl they write your name on the back so it can be returned after a storm  ;D.

Buy a case of 10 oz tubes of cheap latex caulk. Whenever you're bored start sealing. Areas like that, wherever 2 studs or plates come together, around headers, the floor to sole joint, etc, anywhere air can draft in.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 21, 2012, 05:51:38 PM
Thursday - June 21st, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Got the little west gable end ridge beam extension done today, that's about all I got done on the house today. That west ridge beam extension wound up different then the east end one. I used 2 - 2x8's with osb in the middle where as the other end I used 2x12's. Oh well, no one will be able to look at both of them at the same time. I should have just used the 2x8's at the other end too.

I had to trim the tree that was right over the north/east corner next to the house and that was a couple hour job. My neighbor really help out a lot, he came over with one of them Stihl pole saws and we went to town for a couple hours. Then I had to clean up the mess and decided I might as well mow my back dirt...I mean lawn.

Here's a picture of that west ridge beam extension:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120621_141531.jpg)

You can really see how the tree was trimmed in this picture:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120621_142239.jpg)

And here's a north view with the tree trimmed:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120621_142316.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 22, 2012, 12:01:26 PM
Friday Morning - June 22nd, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

K, I found a way out of doing soffits and fascias at the end of my rafters, build a front and back porch where the porch rafters go on top of the wall plate and nail against the rafters end face - this is what I normally see here at countryplans when people do porches.

I know, I'm changing my mind again but it actually doesn't seem difficult to me. Digging the pier holes and doing the platform are methods that I've already done and can see myself doing. I know I've told y'all that I'm on a time limit but oh well, the home owners association here hasn't said or asked about me and I am on the downhill side of being dried in...kind of.

I have a porch question. Why do you hardly not see both a front and back porch when you go through the builds here? There's usually just one porch. I'm thinking structurally that it's not really much more of a strain on the walls right? I guess it's a financial and space decision whether or not to do both a front and back porch. Also, a 4 foot wide porch doesn't seem enough, a 6 foot wide porch...maybe even an 8 foot wide porch seems like the norm, but anymore than that would be unusual - right? What's the most common width? What's the most common porch roof pitch when paired up with the 12:12 pitch?

Tell me if I'm right, now I can just leave my main rafters alone and wait till I put the porch rafters on and then cut off the protruding main rafter lengths?

So here's what I figure I need to do now, get as much roof on as soon as I can!

Now that I'm ready to put my roof sheets on, I'll nail long boards on and perpendicular to the rafters, maybe about 2 feet (hypotenuse wise, going up following the rafter tops) away from the walls edge? That will act as a stop for the first row of sheets to drop down against, then go up from there. I would go up to the point where the ridge vent will still be able to be nailed over the edge of the osb. I'm leaving the 2 feet undone at the bottom so I can install my porch rafters which will be 2x6's. I can leave that area covered with the felt that will be nailed really good so that the rain won't get into the build. Then I can rip a sheet to cover that 2 foot section when it comes time.

How should the osb sheets meet where the osb of the 12:12 pitch meets the lesser pitch of the porch rafters? Something like this?

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/6-22-2012pitchosb.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on June 22, 2012, 12:17:10 PM
i think not seeing rear porches is mainly a financial thing. that and it seems everyone wants a deck out back these days, myself i like porches. down by me its common to see the porch go around all four sides. we need to stay out of the sun its so hot. it also shades the windows from direct sun.

just try to keep the roof sheething over the porch sheething that way when you put water and ice shield on it there wont be a low spot to pool water.

i LOVE my ten foot porch. lots of room for anything. however it would never look right on a 20x32 house so i have decided to do a 6' porch on front and i will put a wide one on the rear. thats where we do most of our entertaining anyways
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on June 22, 2012, 12:21:30 PM
if you go with a 6/12 pitch on a six foot wide porch with the bottom of your rafters ten foot high on the wall will put you at 7' at the front of the porch. minus a few inches for the horizontal support you will still be over 6' so it will not obstruct your line of sight. i wouldnt go higher then 6/12. 4/12 would work too but the steeper the better so leaves etc slide off.

also if it is in the budget i would consider doing something like 4x6" rafters on 4' centers with a tongue and groove for sheeting since you will see it unless you close it in underneath
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: AdironDoc on June 22, 2012, 01:20:38 PM
Quote from: CjAl on June 22, 2012, 12:17:10 PM
i LOVE my ten foot porch. lots of room for anything.

I have a 10ft porch on the rear of my 20x40 and couldn't agree more.
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=10791.75 (http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=10791.75)
I've always thought it's where we'd be spending time and the extra room allows for furniture. Nothing like sitting outside in a heavy downpour but staying nice and dry. Would have wrapped the porch all around but up north here, I appreciate the bright light and warmth of the sun shining in the windows. I don't think the size of the porch ended up out of proportion to the cabin, but then, I did limit it to the rear so we could sit and watch the creek. You can always screen it in and end up with a very functional 3 season room.

(https://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee314/glennjakobsen/024-2.jpg)
(https://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee314/glennjakobsen/052-3.jpg)

Maybe next time around, I'll go for 12ft!

Cheers,
Doc
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 22, 2012, 02:02:41 PM
Doc, that's a great looking porch man! And a great looking place too. A 12 foot porch would be awesome. Thanks for your post Doc.

Well, I was just outside popping some lines and making measurements for where my stop board will sit to rest my first row of sheets on when I noticed something that I did that I'll have to destroy.

Those with a keen eye would have noticed that I just finished putting my blocking in between the rafters. Well, my porch rafters can't go against my main rafters and also rest on the walls top plate with that blocking there. The blocking should have been done after all rafters are sitting on the top plate.

I wish I would have changed my mind about 4 or 5 days earlier. No biggie though, I'll just saw one end of each block 1-1/2" away from the rafter, carefully remove the nails, and then re-nail the blocking against the porch rafter. It's more work but it's worth a porch.

I would do this if it didn't hurt... d*

Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on June 22, 2012, 02:33:10 PM
Quote.....with a tongue and groove for sheeting since you will see it unless you close it in underneath

That made me think of something to mention. Not everyone minds seeing the underside of the roof sheathing over a porch. Some folks leave their soffits open as well, exposing the underside of the roof sheathing. When doing so, the sheathing that will have its underside exposed to the air should be exterior grade plywood, not OSB.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on June 22, 2012, 04:13:05 PM
al i dont think it needs to sit on the top plate. i would just cut your rafter tails flat and nail up a 2x8 or 10 to the end of your rafters and the top plate and hang the rafyers from it. you could use simpson brackets or cut blocks to go between the rafters that you can nail them to. i forget the name they have for those blocks. its the old school way
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 22, 2012, 05:36:03 PM
Good to hear from you again Mount.Don.

Yes, that sounds good about the exposed surfaces. That will make the job easier and faster, plus, we love the look of rustic framing.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on June 22, 2012, 05:48:04 PM
We get out of internet range a lot in the summer.  :)  Mostly intentional.   Hard to keep track of much of the goings on here.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 22, 2012, 06:07:37 PM
Quote from: CjAl on June 22, 2012, 04:13:05 PM
al i dont think it needs to sit on the top plate. i would just cut your rafter tails flat and nail up a 2x8 or 10 to the end of your rafters and the top plate and hang the rafyers from it. you could use simpson brackets or cut blocks to go between the rafters that you can nail them to. i forget the name they have for those blocks. its the old school way

Hey, that sounds pretty good CjAl. So what your saying is for me to cut the main rafter tails flush/plumb with the wall. Then nail a 2x8 to not only the rafter ends but also to the edge of the top plate or plates. Keep in mind my osb goes all the way up to the top of the walls top plate, on its edge. Now that I think about it, what about also nailing that 2x8 to the face of the blockings? That blocking is not nailed to the top plate but they are nailed to the rafters. Then, I could use joist hangers just like I did at the very top of my rafters at the beam. Sounds good to me, I'd like more input from others though too.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on June 22, 2012, 06:49:10 PM
something like that ya. but your better off getting the exact procedure from one of these guys with more experience. i grew up around builders and i have seen alot but lack some practical knowledge. i am not sure if you would want to cut back the sheething to put your nailer on top of it or if you would get some scrap sheething and go over the rafter ends then nail up your board so you have a fluse surface. these are the parts i am not sure of but it is how i would probably do it.

Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on June 22, 2012, 09:03:11 PM
I don't think I'd try to carry a roof on a ledger attached to the end grain of heavily notched rafter tails and small blocking. You can drop under and use ledgerlock type screws to attach a ledger to the wall and hanger the rafters from that. Or you can lay a ledger on the sheathed roof and attach the porch rafters to that. Or you can modify your blocking and set the rafters on the wall.

Personally, I would want the porch carry beam's bottom at least 90" off the porch floor. I like a 10 or 12' porch. If you go that route, and I haven't sketched it, I think you'll be better off sitting the porch rafters on the main roof. I prefer level porch ceilings on these to keep from having an oddly tall wall on the porch, but it's personal preference.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on June 22, 2012, 09:21:01 PM
see, told ya i'm a dummy.

although i did say to attach it to the top plates
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 22, 2012, 09:37:56 PM
CjAl, Thanks for the post once again. We're all learning here...I know I am for sure! You are at least suggesting some thoughts to people on what to do. I haven't been able to do that because I'm such a beginner at all this I wouldn't want to mess something up. In time I hope to be able to help a few people out with some ideas though.

Thanks again Don. I had thought that the strongest way to hold the porches rafters were to set them on the top plate and nail them to the main rafters - like what I've seen here on countryplans. I'm not sure what you mean by 'level porch ceiling'. You mean creating a level ceiling instead of viewing the raw underside of the porch roof?

Also, a 10 or even a 12' porch would be awesome - would my porch pitch be ok with a 12 footer?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on June 22, 2012, 10:01:11 PM
 like what don said. with a 10' porch or more you would probably end up running the porch rafters off the roof to get it high enough, not the wall.  that is a look i dont prefer but for a big porch its about the only way to do it without the front edge getting too low.

adirondac dans roof isnt like that on his ten foot porch but it looks like he has 12' walls not 10'
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 22, 2012, 10:43:01 PM
Laying a ledger on the sheathed roof sounds easier than the other methods and it'll make the 12 foot porch have a higher ending. I'm trying to imagine how the ledger on the roof will look with the porch rafters connected to it. Will the roof ledger be vertical or laying on the roof flat. My first impression is that it would lay flat and then the rafters would have some kind of angle cut on their bottoms. Nailing the porch rafters to the ledger wouldn't be sufficient in that kind of situation...it seems. Is there some kind of StrongTie thingy for that?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on June 22, 2012, 11:34:15 PM
i am not sure you use a ledger for that but i am not positive exactly how its done. i am looking through threads looking for examples but i am in northern wi tonight  and my internet sucks.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on June 23, 2012, 07:35:24 AM
Normally a wide horizontal ledger is nailed through the sheathing to the rafters below (we just changed the rafter loading). This is another case where supporting the heel of the porch rafter top cut to prevent splitting of the bottom edge is important. The angle will be major roof pitch ~45* + porch roof pitch 18*(4/12, what I normally shoot for)=~63*, it is a long cut.

This is a doodle from last night, it is a 10' porch with a 4/12 roof. It meets the main pitch about 4' measured along the main rafter inside the wall line. The main pitch I've extended below the transition is just for pretty, I have a pic of one where we just turned the overhang there as well, easier, either way works.

(https://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x109/windyhilll/alsporch.jpg)

Do sheath the main roof down to the blocking area, do toenail the blocks to the plates (roof shear transfer to the wall, hence to the floors and walls below, and then to the foundation and ultimately the ground, always trying to distribute the loads across the entire box, 3-8d's per) the sheathing and tails can run on over the wall for now if you do a leavel ceiling, just leave it hidden up there and enjoy the protection now. A level ceiling also forms another triangle... strength.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 23, 2012, 10:42:35 AM
Saturday Morning - June 23rd, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Thanks for that sketch and info Don_P. I've played with google sketchup before and I also have that chief architect $500 software but I still can't whip out the sketches like you can, your stuff is big time helpful!

I love the huge porch idea and concept but the looks of how high it is up there on the roof seems just a touch unnatural to me. I did some experimenting this morning and went out on the build just to play around with some ideas. I thought to myself, "What if I just laid the porch rafters right on top of the blocking and then nailed them to the main rafters."

I thought I was onto something good until I realized that if I did that I would also have to re-block that extra height area - but maybe that's ok?

Here's what I did this morning: I initially checked out the difference between a 10 foot porch and a 12 foot porch...wow...12 foot is a lot of space! I thought I would stick with the 10 foot width and marked that off. Then I took a ladder and clamped a vertical 12 foot board to it so that it can hold a test rafter for measurement purposes. I stuck with the suggested 90" from the bottom of the end porch beam to the porch floor, added my 50" from my ground to floor and that's why I chose the 12 foot board.

(Ok, I've got pictures that follow but let me explain them here first)

Then I took another 12 foot 2x4 and simply laid it on top of the vertical 12' board and on top of one of the blocks and against a rafter. Now I know this is using a 2x4 for a porch rafter but in reality I'll use a 2x6. In doing all of this I measured and found that in this scenario the porch roof pitch would be ~3:12. It wouldn't be as steep as I would like it to be but I think it would be ok. We don't have very much snow here in Oklahoma but there are ice storms.

It seems to me that this connection would work because of the rafters being nailed to one another and also resting on the blocking. I could actually cut a very small angled flat on the underside of each porch rafter where it would sit on the blocks, that would create more surface area there.

My main concern in all of this is that if I did it this way I would have to install higher blocks between each rafter once again. BUT, I feel better about doing that than destroying the blocks that I have now in order to rest porch rafters on the top plate. I also feel better about doing it that way than putting a ledger on the finished roof up top side.

Let me know what y'all think about me resting my porch rafters on my installed blocks, nailing them to the main rafters, and installing higher blocks to cover the space. Here's the pictures but keep in mind that the 2x4 your looking at would really be a 2x6:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/6-23-2012porch6.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/6-23-2012porch2.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/6-23-2012porch7.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on June 23, 2012, 11:02:16 AM
your makingbit harder then it needs to be agian Al. are you an engineer of some sort by chance? how will you sheeth it? how will you do the roof vents?

remember the KISS pronciple. your coming in above the roof so just sheeth the roof as it is now and when you do the porch just nail your ledgeracross the sheething right at the edge. same principle and end result but easier
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on June 23, 2012, 11:47:52 AM
There's that, but that will also work fine, I've scabbed porch rafters alongside the main rafters like that and put "kickers" in where your blocking is. It's pretty common for that height to get to a few feet so instead of blocking there it's a kneewall  with the wall sheathing extending up. I don't see a need for higher blocking here, you'll need to notch the insulation baffles a bit when the time comes but that's easy. The soffit vents are out at the porch overhang. Figure out the 2x6 intersection point on the rafters and run the main roof sheathing from there up. Some scrap sheathing screwed on from there down past the wall line and you can dry it in for now. Do not drop below a 3:12 if you're doing shingles.

Found a pic of a 6' and 10' porch, 4/12, the overhangs just turn at the transition rather than carrying thru like I drew above.
(https://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x109/windyhilll/shingles.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on June 23, 2012, 02:15:30 PM
Don.  at the risk of hijacking Al's thread, what do you think about running perlins on top of roof sheething to mount metal roofing on while.leaving more air gap? is running perlins horizontal across the roofing felt not a good idea because of traping water? its very hot where i live and i am trying to lower roof temps as much as possible
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 23, 2012, 03:00:20 PM
Saturday Afternoon - 6/23/2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Thanks CjAl for your input and yes, I do over think things some times but I've always been a very inquisitive type of person. If I wasn't super inquisitive like I am, I don't think I would have been able to build this house. And yes, it's super hot where I live too, it's over 96 degrees here now. Last year there was more than 100 days over 100 degrees here!

As far as how I would sheath the roof and do the roof vent thing - I would do it like I planned. The sheathing would just transition from one angle to another and the venting would happen through the rafter bays and out into the open porch area or if I was to have a porch ceiling, I guess it would vent out the porch eaves BUT I don't want the porch ceiling, I prefer the rustic look of the framing up there.

And thanks again Don_P for that. So what your saying is that the method that I described of laying the rafters on the blocking and nailing my porch rafters to the main rafters would be ok? Sounds good to me. Now, about that kicker you mentioned. Do you mean a short angled board that goes against the porch rafter to stabilize it on one side and angles down to touch the adjacent rafter and top plate on the other side?

Also, you mention the wall sheathing extending up to the point of touching the porch rafters. That would create the so called 'knee wall' correct? That would also mean that I would need to cut the protruding main rafter tails where they extend beyond the walls edge? I understand everything else you mentioned.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on June 23, 2012, 03:25:41 PM
i learn more from a group of people throwing out ideas and discussing them then.i do by someone dictating its done this way and that way. if we had all the answers we wouldnt be here.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on June 23, 2012, 03:57:32 PM
CJ, in my climate and I think most of the US if you encourage airflow on the underside of the metal roof you are going to get condensation dripping off the underside of the metal many mornings. I put the metal on the felt and block the ends to prevent airflow there. Then if it is a vented roof ventilate the underside of the roof sheathing as normal. I don't love purlins, they usually show through the metal. But, I can certainly appreciate your idea, if you park a trailer under a carport it's going to be cooler in the trailer on a sunny day. If you do it there will be water running on that under roof that you want to keep outside.

Al I think your idea is fine without any kickers or other framing. You will need to bob the tails plumb above the wall framing below and sheath the ends of the rafters up to the porch rafters to continue a smooth wall. You can vent across that zone with a strip vent mounted horizontally or individual vents in each bay. I think I remember a few hurricane ties turned basswards in one picture, you may have a few in your way. If you don't own a sawzall and some long blades I'd declare it a late father's day present.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 23, 2012, 04:23:00 PM
Don, You saw those backwards hurricane ties?, man...I thought I got away with it!

I'llput hurricane clips/ties on the inside and then remove the improperly placed ones.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 23, 2012, 07:48:43 PM
I've been laying out on graph paper how I'll be laying my sheets on the roof. My lower starting point will be, as Don_P mentioned, the 2x6 porch rafter intersection point on the main rafters and I'll go up from there. But I'm now questioning my stop point at the top. I know I have to stay away from the very top so that they'll be a gap on both sides of the beam so air can go up and out the ridge vent at the top.

I'm trying to figure out what kind of ridge vent to buy and where to buy it. My closest place is Lowe's but I'm not sure if they carry the ridge vent that y'all would suggest. Once again, how far back from the very peak should I leave my sheathing? I'm thinking about 2" each side...maybe a little more? Has anyone here had experience with a ridge vent?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on June 23, 2012, 10:36:15 PM
this is one I've used, 3" total hole width;
http://www.airvent.com/pdf/installation/ShingleVentII-install.pdf
They also make soffit vent, all their install instructions are here;
http://www.airvent.com/professional/resources/installation.shtml
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on June 24, 2012, 01:07:34 PM
how are you going to attach the joists for the porch to the house Al,







btw, i'm stalking ya


(https://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u258/CjAl1/2012-06-24130241.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 24, 2012, 01:23:24 PM
Hey, your right around here! Ya need to stop by...except in that picture, your heading away from me.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on June 24, 2012, 01:25:46 PM
i am through here quite regularily. almost every week but i usually stay on the turnpike. if ya ever need help with the heavy stuff.just give me a few days notice
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 24, 2012, 05:01:55 PM
Sunday Afternoon - June 24th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

I'll be attaching the porch joists to the house by way of a 2x12 rim-joist nailed against the existing 2x12 rim-joist that goes all the way around the house. I'll use joist hangers of course. I'm thinking that I'll drop down from the main floor 1"? Isn't that about right?

As far as me putting my roof sheets on, I'm ready...I think. I drew a scaled sheathing layout like was suggested from my "House Framing by John D. Wagner" book on page 150. My roof is 34 feet long by 162". I'm starting the sheets at the bottom where the transition point of the roof rafters meet the main rafters. I bought a bag of 50 'H' Panel Clips at Lowe's today for $5.95. I'll need one more bag before it's all over with.

I'm also going to leave at least a 3" horizontal gap at the top for the ridge vent, my sheets will not meet at the top. The way I figured it, I'll have to use 3/4 and 1/2 length sheets here and there in order to meet the length. Also, because of the 162" of roof I'll have to rip some sheets. You'll notice by my sketch below that the very top southern row will have to be ripped to 18" wide. The left over 30" will be used on the bottom row of the northern side. This also creates another ripping of the very top sheets at 36".

My sketch is pretty busy but I've tried to show everything, even the 'H' clips between each rafter at every seam. I googled for software that would show me the best cutting combinations for patterns of roof sheathing but couldn't find any.

I thought I would be jamm'in on my roof sheets this weekend but I guess I got lazy with this high 90 to 100 degree weather. I also didn't totally understand how I was going to lay my sheets down and I didn't want to get out there and just start slapping sheets down without doing some figuring in air-conditioned space.

So here tis, my graph paper sketch. If my 32 sheets of 5/8's laying here won't be enough then I'll just have to get a couple more, no biggie. Please let me know if I'm on the right track:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/6-24-2012sheathpattern.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on June 24, 2012, 05:27:51 PM
your roof is 32' but you show 1/2 sheet, 3 full sheets and a 3/4 sheet. thats 34'.


why not star first row with 4 full sheets, next row cht a sheet in half and start with that half/ full/ full / full/ half. then the next row back to 4 full sheets?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on June 24, 2012, 05:30:04 PM
oops, nevermind. you said 34'.  d*



why did you decide on regular osb instead of tongue and groove, cost?

i dont understand why your north roof is broke down to 30" and 36" pieces. you should do it just like the south. or is it because you will have more overhange because of no porch?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 24, 2012, 05:38:00 PM
I didn't even think about the tongue and groove thing C.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on June 24, 2012, 05:45:18 PM
if you kept your rear overhang to a foot then you could use three full rows and the remainder of the riped sheets from the top row on the other side.  save you a few sheets but would have mis mathced overhangs.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on June 24, 2012, 05:47:13 PM
your just gonna LOVE that 12/12 roof ;D
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 25, 2012, 07:01:47 AM
Monday Morning - June 25th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

What a week to be up on a roof lifting and putting down sheets! Check out the next 7 day forcast:
(Pic coming soon)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/6-25-2012temps.jpg)

I actually started to lay my sheets down yesterday, here's where I'm at:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/6-25-2012sheets1.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: AdironDoc on June 25, 2012, 10:11:01 AM
Quote from: ajbremer on June 25, 2012, 07:01:47 AM
(https://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m489/ajbremer/6-25-2012sheets1.jpg)

Seeing your satellite dish reminded me that I need to set up my antenna too. I bought my wood stove and bunk beds before I ever broke ground, and simply built a cabin around the stuff I had already had. I see you've been enjoying good programming as the walls of your camp go up around you. Great minds think alike!  :D

I saw some builders down south working on a roof a while back. It was blistering hot. They all had small umbrella hats! Later, maybe umbrella drinks as well.  :P Stay cool!

Doc
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on June 25, 2012, 10:32:49 AM
depending on which way that storm turns you might be able to add some rain to that forcast.

do you have he sheets up on the loft? would think that would be easier then that ladder
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 25, 2012, 10:41:29 AM
Monday Morning (Still) - June 25th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Thanks for the posts guys, I'm out there right now putting up sheet #3, only about 30 or so more to go (for the main roof). I got my 3rd full sheet from the ground, up to the loft, then into position in less than 5 minutes, by hand carrying. (My massive muscular structure allows me to do things like this.) ...Hey, I'm only kidd'in. My arms are toothpicks but God gives me strength anyway.

I'm slipping the first row sheets up and through the rafters and onto nailed in stops. Not bad at all, time consuming, but not bad. I'll be setting things up a little differently for the 2nd row.

Ok, well, I'm getting back out there....thanks.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 25, 2012, 02:41:51 PM
Monday Afternoon - June 25th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

K, done for today. Got row number one done of my roof sheathing.

The scaffold ladder undone and stretched out worked really good, it let me get up past the 15 foot mark on the outside of the house. I also nailed some boards in between a 2x12 so that it would trap the ladder legs and I hammered steel steaks in the ground so there would be no chance of the ladder slipping out from under me. Also, I tied a strap around my waist and to a rafter for a home made safety harness while I was moving and stretching around hammering up there.

You may notice the last sections of sheets to the right still have the stops at the bottom of them which were nailed to the rafters temporarily.

I also took a picture of the bag of 'H' panel clamps that I bought, just to show those people who may have never seen one.

Here's pics:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/6-25-2012sheets3.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/6-25-2012sheets2.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/6-25-2012sheets4.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ColchesterCabin on June 26, 2012, 05:28:41 AM
Wow your build is starting to take tremendous shape. I like the way you plan everything out even down to the system to hold the ladder. I'm not only impressed but inspired. Myself personally I just think a little then do and in most cases sometimes have to redo, but that's how we learn sometimes as well.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 26, 2012, 08:07:25 AM
Tuesday Morning - June 26th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Thanks for the post ColchesterCabin. I don't plan everything out and then not have to redo. I'm redoing all the time. I just hope that most ideas and ways of getting things done work the first time I try, many times it doesn't work the first time.

K Y'all: Today will be a challenge, I no longer want to manually lift the sheets into and up to the loft and then up and out between rafters. Since the first row is done now, things are too high to go up between rafters so I'll be lifting them up along the outside of the house, up and over the 1st row, then down and into the 'H' clips of the first row.

It's getting hot outside now so I had better get out there.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on June 26, 2012, 09:11:08 AM
this week the heat is brutal. be safe.

i couldnt find another load today so i am at home. will probly go place a lumber order for the lumber for my beams.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: pmichelsen on June 26, 2012, 09:52:35 AM
Quote from: ajbremer on June 24, 2012, 05:01:55 PM
I'll be attaching the porch joists to the house by way of a 2x12 rim-joist nailed against the existing 2x12 rim-joist that goes all the way around the house. I'll use joist hangers of course. I'm thinking that I'll drop down from the main floor 1"? Isn't that about right?

I would recommend using some type of spacer between your ledger and the rim joist, either the plastic deck2wall spacers http://www.screw-products.com/deck2wallspacer.htm (http://www.screw-products.com/deck2wallspacer.htm) or something similar. I would also recommend bolting it rather than just nailing it. I would also flash your ledger the top of your ledger making sure the flashing is behind your house wrap.

Finally the height of your ledger will depend on what your finish material will be and whether your entire deck will be covered. Hopefully some of this info helps.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 26, 2012, 10:49:23 AM
Monday Morning Still - June 26th, 2012 @ 10:42am Mid-Oklahoma

Thanks pmichelsen, of course your information helps. My mind is so consumed with sheathing this roof that the deck stuff has taken a back seat for a little bit. But ya, I'll go back to your deck information as a reference time and again I'm sure. In fact, this makes me want to do that little database that I spoke of in previous posts. One where very informational posts are kept under topics and subjects. Thanks a ton!

Ok, I've been out there this morning and am going right back out but I had to come in to post pics of how I'm getting my second row on. Basically, manually pulling them up 45 degree rails from the top using 2 straps, the straps that came bundled around all of those loads of wood that were delivered from the lumber company that I use. First I used top poles of an old chain link fence and each of them are around 20' long.

As you can see from the pictures, I anchored the poles at the ground by way of steaks and pieces of wood so that they wouldn't slip. Then I leaned the top of them on my blocking and against the rafters. I used clamps on the sheets and tied onto there. Then I got up at the top and on top of the staging that I made and pulled them up from there. Once the sheet goes over the installed sheet, it drops into place and gravity holds it there (if there is no wind).

What I'll do now is slide that sheet down and bring up another one, then slide those sheets down and bring up another one, etc., etc.

Here's the pictures and now I got to go back out there:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/6-26-2012sheets1.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/6-26-2012sheets3.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/6-26-2012sheets4.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/6-26-2012sheets5.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: suburbancowboy on June 26, 2012, 01:51:56 PM
Do you have a pulley at the top of your rope?  If you could have your wife pull the rope while you direct the osb in place it could make things much easier.  This is very similar to what we did.  One or two people attaching the rope to the osb(Wife and kid).  One person pulling rope, and one or two placing and attaching the osb to the trusses.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 26, 2012, 06:36:49 PM
Monday Night - June 26th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Got a little of the second row done, it was above 100 degrees!

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120626_141543.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 27, 2012, 07:04:15 AM
Wednesday Morning - June 27th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

It'll be another very hot day so I'm trying to get out there as early as possible to put roof sheathing on.

Deck building and the porch roof will be in the near future and that leads me to a question that I have about this tree stump within my building area. In the picture above, the one showing the beginnings of the 2nd row of sheeting, you'll notice a fairly large tree stump barely protruding out of the ground right in front of the build on the right side. It's actually right in front of the letter 'm' where the house wrap says the word 'improving' - it kind of looks like a rock.

Well, that tree stump is in the way of where I want to put my corner deck/porch post. I could go one side or the other a little further, or I could even make the porch 12' instead of 10' wide and that would give me a digging spot. BUT I'm not sure if it's ok to leave an old stump under the porch. Do stumps and/or their roots continue to grow or is it safe to leave it there?

The tree stump is probably about 18" in diameter and its center is about 6 feet from the wall. I'm wondering if I could cause movement to the pier(s) near roots from it if I try to get a machine in here to pull it out. I wonder if the movement of the roots could shift things around the pier soil. Should I leave it, should I get it out of there? I've seen where people burn stumps but I'm not sure if that's a safe thing being so close to the house.

Ya, I know I probably should have gotten rid of it before I even started the build but back then I didn't realize that it may become a problem. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: AdironDoc on June 27, 2012, 07:28:27 AM
I'm planning a 12x12 shed with very tall walls but always wondered how I'd pull the plywood sheets up if I took on a roof project myself. Great idea with the poles. I have a portable winch but your method practically lays them right in place. Bravo! My back thanks you in advance.  ;D
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on June 27, 2012, 07:55:08 AM
i think you need to pull it al. it will rot and the ground wiwll move.

if you have a chain saw plunge it straight down the middle, pull it out and turn it 90 degrees and plunge it down again. pour kerosene in the hole and start it on fire. do this when someone will be there a few days to keep an eye on it.

meanwhile start digging aroundbit to expose as much of the roots as you can and start a fire.on the outside too.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 27, 2012, 07:24:17 PM
Wednesday Night - June 27th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

My first time ever on a roof!

I was very careful and I did tie a strap around my waist and tried to have the strap in hand most of the time. It really wasn't all that bad. You would never want to wear sneakers up there though. I was wearing my steel toes from work.

I've got the first 2 rows up now. Here's pictures:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/6-27-2012sheets3.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/6-27-2012sheets4.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/6-27-2012sheets6.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/6-27-2012sheets7.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/6-27-2012sheets8.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on June 27, 2012, 07:59:55 PM
since you will shingle might i suggest you invest in about a dozen roof jacks
(http://www.hometime.com/Hometime_4.0/media/howto/Roofing/Roof_Jack.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 27, 2012, 08:30:32 PM
Thanks for reminding me of that CjAl.

I shall buy some of these tomorrow!

http://www.lowes.com/pd_59289-287-ARB10-10_0__?productId=3036270&cm_mmc=SCE_gps-_-gps-_-gps-_-Werner%20Ladder%20Steel%20Adjustable%20Roof%20Bracket&CAWELAID=1367992346 (http://www.lowes.com/pd_59289-287-ARB10-10_0__?productId=3036270&cm_mmc=SCE_gps-_-gps-_-gps-_-Werner%20Ladder%20Steel%20Adjustable%20Roof%20Bracket&CAWELAID=1367992346)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on June 27, 2012, 10:26:07 PM
Al, I agree, lose the stump, all of it. Aside from subsidence as it decays the recyclers smell the food and then the house begins to look like dessert.

Let's hope the man isn't reading, here's another way to run that safety line. Lash it to the ridge. Tie webbing around you rather than rope if at all possible. Then google "prussic knot", the prussic is attached to the safety line and it's loop is attached to your harness. Now you can slide the prussic up and down along the safety line to remove all that slack. If you fall the prussic binds and holds, a very common safety when rock climbing, I used to use one as a backup on rappels. When you set it up have the rope dangling down to the floor inside and prove it will work in there, cinch it up tight and then fall and make sure it'll lock up with the ropes you have.

All I wear is sneakers up there, but I also have steel toed sneakers. I was at PT the other day and she told me the doc has cleared me for light weights. I said that sounded good cause I was 30' up flashing a chimney a few days ago and some more strength would be just fine  :D. We buried 2 stainless hooks up on the chimney cap and I lashed into them. We have also stuck eyebolts high out of gable end walls and dormers before as well. A tie point if someone is painting or whatever. As I get older I tend to tie off more, the realization that my bounce is gone, I just go crunch :P
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 28, 2012, 11:47:03 AM
Thursday Morning - June 28th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Got out very early this morning and drove to Lowe's to get some things. I bought 4 of those roof jack/brackets, 1 roll of #30 felt, and some nails. I wanted also to look for a safety harness but only found a safety kit for $130.00. It's OSHA approved and has everything in it, even a 25 foot cord. I had it on my cart to buy but then I put it back due to finances and bills.

One thing about building your house payday to payday is that, for me, it's easy to neglect some bills and buy wood and other things to build your house instead BUT, that's not the right thing to do and I'm trying to get out of that 'habit' so I put that $130 roofer's fall protection kit back. I very much do want to buy it soon though, it's a lot better than my home made strapping.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/6-28-2012sheets1.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/6-28-2012sheets2.jpg)

Here's the link to Lowe's ANSI/OSHA Compliance Roofer's Fall Protection Kit

http://www.lowes.com/pd_134465-98-94050-00000_0__?Ntt=osha+roof+fall+protection&productId=3101473&rpp=16 (http://www.lowes.com/pd_134465-98-94050-00000_0__?Ntt=osha+roof+fall+protection&productId=3101473&rpp=16)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: suburbancowboy on June 28, 2012, 12:28:50 PM
I bought the same kit and only ended up using it once.  I actually ended up putting my step son in it once when we put extra staples in the osb on the  roof.  If you have ever done any repelling you might find a cheaper outfit that way that does the same thing.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: UK4X4 on June 28, 2012, 02:42:18 PM
climbing harness is less than 50usd

a couple of caribiners 10usd

and the rope you allready have

1 off large eye bolt
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Alan Gage on June 28, 2012, 04:08:06 PM
RE: roof harnesses

Be careful with that roof harness. Realize that even though it will catch you during a fall it can still kill you if there's no one around lower you to the ground if you're left hanging. All it takes is a few minutes.

Info:

http://www.elcosh.org/en/document/590/d000568/will-your-safety-harness-kill-you%253F.html

I'd never heard of this but the other day my dad was telling me about a show he watched where someone was trying to design a better harness to solve this problem. His reason for trying to come up with a new design is that one day he was working on a roof with a crew and when he walked around a corner of the house one of the roofers was hanging dead in his harness.

It seems self rescue is very difficult to nearly impossible with many harnesses. So even though you might only be suspended 5' above the ground you're unable to get yourself out of the harness or unclip for a safe drop to the ground.

Alan
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 28, 2012, 06:47:04 PM
Wow...man! I never realized all that stuff about suspension trauma.

Maybe I should just put all that safety kit money into mattresses and position them on the ground!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 29, 2012, 05:45:11 AM
Friday Morning - June 29th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

I bought 6 roof brackets all together yesterday, 4 adjustable ($8.98) and 2 non-adjustable 45 degree angled ones ($6.98). I put 2 of the adjustable ones up yesterday and nailed only 1 sheet down. Oh well, at least I was able to get up there for a little bit, it was about 110 degrees up there.

Today, I hope to really get after it and get a lot done but another subject caught my attention early this morning as I was checking morning emails and websites. Believe it or not, one of the items on yahoo's front page this morning was about stair riser height. Someone noticed that their New York city subway station stairway was causing just about everyone to trip at the same place. He found the culprit, one riser was a fraction of an inch higher than the others. Well, he took a video of everyone tripping on that particular stair and many thousands of people started to watch it and the video went viral (a term used when youtube videos go into the hundreds of thousands).

This comes to my attention because I've been reading about building my stairs and kind of getting psyched to begin the project. One thing about building a place with a loft and doing its roof is that you go up and down ladders hundreds of times throughout a days work.

Anyway, seeing this video has strengthened my awareness of riser height. Look at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap-22FjgoE4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap-22FjgoE4)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: considerations on June 29, 2012, 07:39:37 AM
The thing that struck me is how filthy those stairs are....ICK  :P
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on June 29, 2012, 08:22:10 AM
lol. never been to.new york huh? the video can show the filty, it cant show the god awfull smell
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: pmichelsen on June 29, 2012, 10:39:39 AM
The thing I take away from that video is just how amazing the human brain really is. Your brain notices how high you have to lift your foot after a few stairs and then goes on auto pilot after that. The human body is truly amazing.

But to your point, yes it is very important to get your stairs all the same.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 29, 2012, 07:24:37 PM
Friday - June 29th, 2012 - Mid-Oklahoma

Started the 3rd row, little by little - it's getting done:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/6-29-2012sheets1.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: metolent on June 30, 2012, 11:16:21 AM
Amazing Al!  Looking great!   [cool]

Hope your staying cool ... most of the time....
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 02, 2012, 08:01:33 AM
Monday Morning - July 2nd, 2012 - Mid Oklahoma

I finished the major portion of sheathing on the south side and now I've started the north side. As I've mentioned in earlier posts, I've left that bottom portion open for the porch rafters and the top has to have some narrow sheets put up that will go to the ridge vent line but I want to leave that open till I finish the major portion on this north side. Then I can get up top and put those narrow sheets one by one on each side.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/7-02-2012sheets1.jpg)

After that, I can lay my felt. I went out and bought one roll of #30 felt but I think I'm going to take it back to Lowe's and get the GRACE - TriFlex stuff. It has really good reviews (read some of them), cost $112, and is 4' wide by 250'. Here's the link:

http://www.lowes.com/pd_283849-711-5008030_4294858150__?productId=3151833&Ns=p_product_qty_sales_dollar|1&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNs%3Dp_product_qty_sales_dollar|1&facetInfo= (http://www.lowes.com/pd_283849-711-5008030_4294858150__?productId=3151833&Ns=p_product_qty_sales_dollar%7C1&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNs%3Dp_product_qty_sales_dollar%7C1&facetInfo=)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on July 02, 2012, 08:32:55 AM
does your lowes carry it?  mine doesnt butbone over in louisianna does.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 02, 2012, 09:16:38 AM
Yes, I have read where the GRACE - TriFlex underlayment is not in the Lowe's stores but has to be ordered and/or delivered. I'm going to Lowe's today to return a roll of #30 felt and I'm going to see if I can order the TriFlex.

Thanks again CjAl
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: rick91351 on July 02, 2012, 02:38:14 PM
Quote from: Don_P on June 27, 2012, 10:26:07 PM
snip................................

As I get older I tend to tie off more, the realization that my bounce is gone, I just go crunch :P

[shocked] :D ;)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: astidham on July 02, 2012, 05:46:35 PM
a friend of mine bought grace at home depot here in tulsa
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 02, 2012, 06:08:47 PM
Hey astidham,

How's work?

Anyway, I returned my roll of #30 flet today to Lowe's in McAlester, OK and I asked them about that Grace-TriFlex 4 foot wide underlayment. They said I would have to pay first and then they'll order it and it should be in the store in 1-1/2 weeks - about. I'm not sure I want to do that. I'll probably drive to a place like you mentioned and get it right there and then. Thanks for the heads up sir.

Ok, all together this weekend I didn't get as much done as I thought I would but I had a great time with family. I was able to get the first row of the north side done.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/7-02-2012sheets2.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: astidham on July 02, 2012, 06:18:38 PM
Quote from: ajbremer on July 02, 2012, 06:08:47 PM
Hey astidham,

How's work?

Anyway, I returned my roll of #30 flet today to Lowe's in McAlester, OK and I asked them about that Grace-TriFlex 4 foot wide underlayment. They said I would have to pay first and then they'll order it and it should be in the store in 1-1/2 weeks - about. I'm not sure I want to do that. I'll probably drive to a place like you mentioned and get it right there and then. Thanks for the heads up sir.

Ok, all together this weekend I didn't get as much done as I thought I would but I had a great time with family. I was able to get the first row of the north side done.


everything is going good, hope is good for you also.
your progress is amazing!
my buddy that used grace, didn't really care for.
after it was in the Oklahoma sun for about 3 days, it shrunk up, tight as a snare drum, and was pulling away from the cap-nails.
I used palisade.
it is a synthetic felt, kinda resembles a tarp.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 02, 2012, 07:45:42 PM
Now that you say that about the GRACE-TriFlex underlayment, that it stretches in the heat, I read a review that it did that.

Where did you buy yours, and what's the specs...got a link? Thanks
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: astidham on July 03, 2012, 04:34:53 PM
Quote from: ajbremer on July 02, 2012, 07:45:42 PM
Now that you say that about the GRACE-TriFlex underlayment, that it stretches in the heat, I read a review that it did that.

Where did you buy yours, and what's the specs...got a link? Thanks
http://www.sdp-products.com/HTML/palisade.html (http://www.sdp-products.com/HTML/palisade.html)
got mine at a metal roof and building supply in Tulsa.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 03, 2012, 05:35:17 PM
Tuesday Afternoon - July 3rd, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Thanks for the reply astidham, I may have to take a drive there soon.

Today:

Only able to get a couple sheets up today. I had to switch the lift poles to the back side in order to lift sheets up for the north side roof (north is back yard).

Here's today's pic: (There's a window question and another pic after this.)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/7-03-2012window.jpg)

Now I have a window question:

My east gable end has 4 narrow and tall windows, 2 on each side of the ridge beam post. I have full pane glass for these windows, bought them off a friend from work and they are industrial grade, dual pane, argon, etc. I've had a few friends install windows like this and bought them from the same guy at work. They said they just put some rubber under it, and trimmed it inside and out. I know there's more to it than that and I'm sure that I'm not mentioning everything they said to me about how they installed it, it has been awhile since they told me.

Can anyone explain the steps I need to take to install this? Do I set the window so that it's closer to the outside or inside, and also, should I put something like a drip edge under it to make sure the water running onto the outside sill drips away from the window? Any help and suggestions would be appreciated. In the mean time, I'm going to look for youtube vids on this. Thanks.

In this picture I simply set the window in the hole.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/7-03-2012sheets1.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: UK4X4 on July 03, 2012, 06:12:34 PM
Al

to me that looks rather close in size to the openning

In the UK we used to use wood window frames
all the time set into concrete walls

May give you some ideas

the frames were usually 2x2 or 2x3 mortised frames set onto a wooden sloped windowsill with a drip edge
to the exterior and the interior the window is held in place by 1/4 round or triangular wooden strips

the exterior usually nailed and glued in place, the inner just nailed

The windows themselves were set within the frame on a bed of putty bottom and front face only

The windows them selves I used to order 5mm smaller than my frame.

To install the sill and frame wood be set onto a glue / concrete mix- or later just a full tube of silicone

The sides and top of the frame were then wedged in place and then screwed into the masonary

line the openning with the putty, install the window and nail in the inner 1/4 sections

Between the wood frame and the brickwork sealent was used.

Sill section was like this

(http://www.goodrichlumber.com/application/MainSite/Store1/_CachedContent/_ECommerce/StoreProductCategories/212.png)

Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 04, 2012, 04:14:06 PM
Wednesday Afternoon - July 4th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Thank you so much for that window info UK4x4.

Here's what's going on today:

I own and am trying to sell another house around here in Oklahoma and had to do a little yard work there today. Well, this house has a car port that has about a 12' x 20' roof over it. I noticed another way of attaching porch (carport) rafters to the main rafters...below them on the main rafter tails. This method of attaching porch rafters to the rafter tails of the main rafters alone doesn't seem very strong BUT this house was built in the late 1930's. I guess if they also would have put a ledger under the ends of the porch/carport rafters it would have been ok. The deal is though, it's held up over 70 years!

I just thought I would post a picture of another method of attaching porch rafters to main rafters.

This first picture is the countryplan that I'm building now. It shows the method that I'm going to use in order to attach my porch rafters to my main rafters, on top of the blocking and nailed to the main rafters. The picture shows me using a 2x4 but I'll be using 2x8's for my porch rafters. The picture immediately after it shows the old house using the main houses rafter tails for support.

Be sure to check out the 3rd and last picture of this post. I bought my front door today off of an old neighbor. It is a wooden door that came from a church and it has the jam with it and everything. I'll have to refinish it and replace 1 cracked pane but other than that, it was a great deal...I paid $15.00 for it!

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/6-23-2012porch6.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/7-04-2012wetumkahouse3.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/7-04-2012frontdoor1.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on July 04, 2012, 10:46:01 PM
nice score on the door. i see doors in worse shape, usually painted and no glass for $85-$100 on craigslist
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 05, 2012, 02:41:00 PM
Thursday Afternoon - July 5th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Thanks CjAl, ya - I'm pretty excited about that door. It'll be great when I fill all of my window and door holes!

Well, this weekend I really didn't get as much done as I expected but I spent quality time with family and that is higher on the list than the house.

I've got the 2nd row of osb on the north side now. All I have to do is to finish nailing it down and then I'll be pulling sheets up to the third row. I've never sweat so much in my life being on top of that roof in 100 degree sunshine. I wipe it off and 2 minutes later I'm drenched.

Here it is so far:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/7-05-2012sheets2.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 05, 2012, 08:36:21 PM
Titanium UDL-30 looks like a great product that I should use instead of #15 or #30 felt, has any of you used this?

Here's a link to the stuff:

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&q=titanium+udl+price&gbv=2&safe=active&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=13013811794880745039# (http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&q=titanium+udl+price&gbv=2&safe=active&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=13013811794880745039#)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on July 05, 2012, 10:19:25 PM
Just got power back, we went out in the third windstorm Sun (5mph below local residential design load, I've seen some porch roofs in yards) so I'm a little behind, I've used Grace and Titanium, They are both great compared to felt for longer term exposure or wind. I do prefer titanium, especially in summer, the grace is black and a good bit warmer. Tell your Lowes to get on the stick, grace is a stock item here and we are way deeper in the boonies than you.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 06, 2012, 11:17:06 AM
Friday Morning - July 6th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

I'm trying to get a rough estimate of how much log siding I'll need and it sells by the linear foot. I made a graphic that shows my exact openings and the gable end size. From the information that I googled, it said I should add 10% to the figure so that I won't be short.

It is important to get this figure by subtracting the areas for doors and windows, correct? I wanted to find some kind of online calculator but things aren't always that simple. Here's the graphic where I'm getting my sizes from:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/openings.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: suburbancowboy on July 06, 2012, 12:14:06 PM
Also make sure you check the quality of the log siding.  I ended up having about 20% waste.  Also something else to consider is the lengths of the boards you get.  As an example if the ends are 20 feet then either get 20 foot boards or 10 foot board.  Any other size you will have a lot of cut off waste.  This has been killing me on my build.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 06, 2012, 03:54:12 PM
Friday Afternoon - July 6th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

So many people are trying to talk me into doing a metal roof as opposed to shingles. Their say'in that I'll be up and down that roof all summer doing underlayment and shingles. It has been going very slow because I'm very careful up there and it is very hot. I almost can't work up there after 12:00 noon.

Question: Can I change my mind to a metal roof at this point? Is there some kind of ridge vent for metal also? I guess I would stop right at my osb with the metal where the porch rafters will begin. Any comments?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: UK4X4 on July 06, 2012, 06:01:23 PM
me being a brit - shingles is an alergic rash- not a roofing sytem

I worked in dade county after hurricane andrew as a roofer- I found them to be an interesting product, but not exactly a roofing system I could take home to UK commonly slate, tile and concrete

We have rain in England..

The hidden screw metal roofing is what I'm going for, again holes where the water runs to me is a mistake.

But it all depends on where you live and what investment you can afford-

me I'd rather invest in the roof and wait for sheetrock............

I'm going for log siding too - but up top cheaper ply batt and board like this

http://www.barnpros.com/products/barn-house/index.html

Should make it easier to price too- linear ft is not so dificult- but you need the "actual physical "width

When I've been looking at mine I just too total wall size- the windows and doors giving me my spare/ scrap

You'll never be spot on............either you have to order more- or your boiler cabinet doors become log siding !

Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 06, 2012, 06:13:38 PM
To add to my last post:

(Thanks for the post UK4x4)

I called Wheeler Metals today and got a quote for my roof, just to see how much the majority would cost.

They said I should use 26 gauge which is ~0.018 thick. I asked to quote the color green. They said the 26 gauge comes in a 10 year or a 40 year guarantee and that it has to do with the coating. They said that the 26 gauge 10 year was $2.12 a linear foot and the 26 gauge 40 year is $2.50 a linear foot.

I told them my dimensions were: 34' x 15'. That's not right-on but it's close. They said I would need 12 sheets a side, 24 total.

40 Year: $900
10 Year: $763.20

They quoted the ridge cap (and it vents when you buy the closure) at $54.00.

They can have the order ready in 3 to 5 days and they don't deliver because they said the metal can get easily messed up when put with other materials so they have the customer pick up the stuff.

So, all in all, it looks like I can get a metal roof for right around $1000. I know I'll have to buy screws and some other triming but it sure sounds nice...maybe nicer then shingles?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: UK4X4 on July 06, 2012, 06:22:53 PM
mm $800 for 10 and $900 for 40 years - thats a no brainer............but the trim- screws sealant and farkles add up

I've always found the main parts are cheap- but all the little stuff nickle an dimes you to death !

Others I'm sure can add you in the other needed parts

Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ColchesterCabin on July 06, 2012, 09:03:13 PM
We have a local company here same deal metal is dirt cheap, and also UK is right the screws and other stuff does add up. But when you subtract the labour cost plus the durability it far superceeds in value. With my build it is off the grid so I chose to go with a metal roof when i get there so I can collect the water off the roof to use for grey water initially. I figure the Cabin would get used more if I didn't have to go outside per say.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on July 06, 2012, 10:10:28 PM
my wife wants green archatectural shingles. i want silver metal, the house will already be green and thats too much green. plus silver or white will reflect more heat. i would go with the metal myself. i like the standing seam stuff but its more money. you will have to ask how to do the transition between the roof and porch roof pitches. some sort of flashing i imagine.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on July 07, 2012, 05:53:20 AM
There is a flashing at the transition that tucks under the upper metal and sits on top of the ribs of the lower roof. The bottom edge of the upper roof metal needs to start uphill a bit to account for the porch roof sheathing and the height of the ribs at the roof angles, plus a little bit. The upper metal does not need to jam right down into the fold.

I use upper and lower closure strips on each sheet. Decide which trims you want or need from the suppliers selection and get a full quote, not just the sheets.

We predrill the metal in stacks on the ground for screws with 1/8" bits. Pull the end sheets off the stack first, they will need a different pattern along the edges.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 07, 2012, 11:43:38 AM
Saturday Morning - July 7th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

I'm out there this morning and I finished nailing the 2nd row of osb on the north side. Now it's time to put up the beginnings of row number 3. It's cloudy today with just a little breeze. It's 89 degrees out there right now with a 12mph wind. Wow, a lot of the country is in a heat wave in triple digits.

Today's not a bad day to roof, thank you Lord! [cool]
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on July 07, 2012, 04:24:52 PM
my thermometer read 104 in jenks yesterday. i just got home it was 95 then the thunderstorm moved in and its 72. it has been right at or over 100 for a month, 72 is darn nice
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 07, 2012, 04:30:56 PM
That's for sure Cj!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 07, 2012, 08:18:10 PM
Saturday Night - July 7th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

I found a pretty nice diagram of the different parts and trim parts of a metal roof. It helps me to understand what I need.

This diagram came from the website: www.muellerinc.com

Here's the Metal Roof Trim Diagram:

Trim is an essential part of a metal roof. Trim is what helps seal all joints where a transition is made in the slope and direction of a roof. It also has many aesthetic qualities. For some of the trim listed below, there will be several different trim profiles to choose from based on the look you would like to achieve.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/rooftrimpic.jpg)

1) Ridge Roll or Peak Sheet: This trim will be found anywhere two rising roof surfaces meet one another, such as the ridge, a hip, or the top of a dormer. Peak sheets are only available for R- and U-Panels.

2) Rake or Gable Trim: This trim is found anywhere a sloping edge ends, such as the end of a gable or the end of a dormer.

3) Gutter or Eave Trim:Eave trim is installed on the lowest edge of the roof. Its main purpose is to give a finished look to the roof. If gutters are requested, they would be installed in place of Eave Trim.

4) Downspout: Downspouts are used when gutters installed. They drain water from the gutters to the ground.

5)Wall to Roof Transition: Any time a vertical wall surface meets another roof surface, transition trim is required in order to keep water from getting underneath the roof panels. A similar trim is also needed around chimneys.

6) Valley Flashing: Valley trim is required anywhere two roof surfaces meet to form a valley. The Valley Trim is installed underneath the roof panels to help guide water and keep it from getting under the panels.

7) Transition Trim: Any time a roof is sloping in one direction but that slope changes, transition trim is required. It is used to keep water from getting under the roof panels.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 08, 2012, 07:32:11 AM
Sunday Morning - July 8th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Another good day for roofing, 79 degrees, a little cloudy, with a 40% chance of rain.

I'm looking forward to getting all of the osb on very soon, within the next couple of days. Then onto Titanium Felt and then framing the gable ends and doing their osb. Wow, won't be able to see the sky no more!

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/7-07-2012sheets.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 08, 2012, 08:14:10 PM
Sunday Night - July 8th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

My angles have been aching lately and I started to wonder if it had to do with being on the 12:12 pitch roof day after day for the last few weeks. Come to find out, there is ankle pain associated with roofers and high inclines. I googled the problem and it didn't take long to find articles relating to the apparent fact.

One article titled: "A Survey of the Safety Roles and Costs of Injuries in the Roofing Contracting Industry" proclaimed this:

"In the job-site interviews, all roofers stated that they enjoyed working on the flat parts of
the roof much more than the inclined surfaces because it is easier to operate more efficiently.
They also mentioned that working on the flat roofs was stressful to the back and knees because
there is a lot of bending over at the waist. According to the roofers interviewed, the greater the
slope, the more ankle and foot pain they felt. While they said there are not many foot injuries,
they did say all roofers have foot/ankle aches and pains. When asked if these aches and pains
were worse at the beginning of their careers or currently, one roofer said that it was worse when
he started. He said that over time he had learned how to shift his weight from one side to the
other to give each side a rest while he was up on the roof. The other roofer said that he felt the
aches worsen with age. He said when he was young he was fearless and felt little pain. Now he
said that he feels constant aches in his back and ankles, especially while working at inclined
surfaces."

That article is found at: http://www.asse.org/academicsjournal/archive/vol3no1/06spring_choi5.pdf (http://www.asse.org/academicsjournal/archive/vol3no1/06spring_choi5.pdf)

I also read within that article that one worker solved the problem by continually shifting his weight periodically.

I'm glad that all of my osb is just about up now BUT, I'll have to get back up there in a little while to put on the felt and then the metal.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on July 08, 2012, 08:34:19 PM
And now you know why I hire roofers after I get it dried in  ;). Google plantar fascitis as well. In this heat keep your potassium up, gatorade, nanner puddin, deep greens and blues are the colors to choose, it'll help make it all go away. And rock away sweet baby James  ;D
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on July 08, 2012, 08:38:16 PM
Al you will have to take more precautions when putting the Titaninum down.  You will not be able to use roof jacks or 2X's as steps starting at the bottom which is convientional manner because you will penetrate it with the nails and if it is sometime before your metal is installed it will leak. 

A solution is start at the top leaving the overlap portion loose.  Then with the next row you just slip it up under then nail that last overlap.  Continue to the eve edge.  That way you can attach either roof jacks or 2X's nailed onto the OSB to walk on and keep moving them to the eve edge and the felt will cover any holes the nails make. 

It is very difficult to put the titaninum down by yourself.  You actuall need two people to go from the top to the bottom.  Remember to use "button or cap nails" and follow the nailing patterns.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 08, 2012, 10:13:01 PM
Thanks Don and redoverfarm - great advice!

Now about my dry soil conditions. I've noticed lately that the ground around my build is very dry from lack of rain. I can see cracks in the dirt starting to form like some of those dry lake bed pictures you've seen. Actually, not that bad but I'm getting concerned.

I googled 'soil dry cracked foundation' and came up with interesting results. It seems that I should be lightly watering my soil now and then when there is no rainfall. I hate the thought of it but I can see some circular dry soil cracks here and there around where a few piers are.

There is no sign that any pier has moved or that the house is moving or things are out of level. Of course, I don't have a door that don't shut because of movement but someday I'll have a door.

On the opposite side of the coin, my soil has a drainage problem when it rains really hard for long periods of time. I have been investigating getting a french drain put in. I have been told that's the way to go. Those hard rains are few and far between but I still want to be safe.

Here's some info I found talking about dry soil conditions:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/soilmoisture.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Alasdair on July 09, 2012, 07:04:06 AM
http://vicwest.com/installation_tips/residential (http://vicwest.com/installation_tips/residential)

I found this site to have some helpful information on metal roofing.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 09, 2012, 08:59:00 AM
Monday Morning - July 9th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Thank you for the link to those metal roofing installation guides, they really help me to understand how things go together up there. I've talked to my metal place and they quoted me for stuff called, 'Low Rib' R - Panel. I went online and found a really nice installation guide that has really good diagrams.

Now I have a very important question: I asked the metal guy about laying the panels right down on the osb or using purlins. He said it's 50 / 50. Half of the people use the purlin method and the other half lay the metal right down on the osb BUT using underlayment first. I've seen a few builds here where they have no osb, just purlins going across the rafters. Then they put the felt, and then the metal down. Seems so much stronger and better using osb. What is the best way to do it when there IS osb down. To lay the metal panels on the felt that is layed directly on the osb OR to use purlins on the osb (5/8's) and then lay the metal down on it?

My plan is to put the felt down on my 5/8's osb and then put the metal panels directly down on the felt, am I on the right track?

And once again, thanks for those links Alasdair!

Here's that nice metal roof installation guide:

http://metalexperts.ca/pdf/InstallationGuide.pdf (http://metalexperts.ca/pdf/InstallationGuide.pdf)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on July 09, 2012, 10:28:52 AM
purlins imo just make a great place for wasps nests. our uncle had his metal roof put on.over perlins and there is so many wasps now you cant even use yhe porches he has all around the house..

i think purlins on top of the felt just make a dam for water. i had considered using perlins on top of osb and felt but i was going to put foam insulation panels between the perlins and mabey even another layer of felt on top of them but i just dont know if its worth it. my idea was to get extra insulation and another air gap because i am in such a hot climate. plus perlins make a real nice ladder to work on.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 09, 2012, 12:13:42 PM
Monday Afternoon - July 9th, 2012

I did a video showing cracks around my pier holes. I used 8 to 10 bags of 80 pound Quikrete in each pier hole. Because of the very dry conditions and lack of rain in my area, the ground has been drying up and cracking.

This is kind of a long youtube video (5 minutes) but I took the time to show you the cracks around the piers. I watered the soil just before taking this video.

There's a happy medium of moisture content for soil around piers and maybe someday I'll find out how to maintain that level of moisture.

Here's the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVUlwh_U54g (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVUlwh_U54g)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: rick91351 on July 09, 2012, 12:26:22 PM
Your cracking is really nothing to be concerned with especially with three foot deep piers.  It is mainly surface cracking and a way the Good Lord created soil to get water down in to the soil next rainy season.  That is another reason why your piers are suppost to set on virgin soil. 
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on July 09, 2012, 06:04:44 PM
Skip the purlins they do less than absolutely nothing if you have a solid deck. Use the foam closure strips over the top and under the bottom of the sheets, you do not want moist air flowing under the sheets at night, condensing and sweating. That mistake gets repeated over and over again. Depending on how ,ahem, retentive you are buttoncaps can telegraph through thinner metals with a little bump, purlins do with rows of edges showing quite often, and dents where someone misstepped. My preference for those situations is felt and roofing nails but the catch 22 is that the felt won't last nearly as long. I've seen some folks run red rosin paper vertically over the wrap and buttonkaps as they lay each sheet. You'd have to be pretty picky but we all fixate on different things.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 09, 2012, 08:33:20 PM
Monday Night - July 9th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Finally finished the back side today, at least the large sheets. Now I just have to get up
there from the inside and do the narrow sheets that will leave a small vent gap. Next
comes the underlayment.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120709_141540.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 11, 2012, 02:39:33 PM
Wednesday Afternoon - July 11th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Finished up to the top with the roof sheathing.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/7-11-2012sheetssouth.jpg)

I also left a gap where the osb stops, for the vent. It's a little crooked here and there and not perfectly centered but after the metal ridge vent cap is on it won't be seen. I won't tell anybody it's crooked...cept you guys!
(1 more pic coming soon)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/7-11-2012sheets4.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: suburbancowboy on July 11, 2012, 05:01:42 PM
I wish we had a way to do a dance on the roof.  To me it is a bigger deal than getting the floor done.    I remember when I got the roof on last year when it was raining twice a week I slept much better and relaxed a little.  It also means when it is to hot to work out side you can just work inside. c*
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on July 11, 2012, 06:17:48 PM
Nail an evergreen bough to the peak at one end, raise a toast and have a traditional topping out ceremony. Well done  :)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 11, 2012, 10:05:39 PM
Thanks Don_P and suburbancowboy!

I'd never heard the term 'topping out' so I googled it and found out. Here's the definition:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topping_out (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topping_out)

It was kind of fun straddling the top of the house like this:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/2012-07-11120517.jpg)

I was be'in funny here:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/2012-07-11120610.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 12, 2012, 02:10:33 PM
Thursday Afternoon - July 12th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

I didn't know it but a guy at work told me about a plastic skirting panel manufacturing place that is right in my closest town, it's called, Reil Rock. They make 36" x 57" panels that have that river rock look.

I told the woman there that I had a 20 x 30 countryplan place and she said "...a country what?" No...kidd'in. She said I would need 20 panels. She priced the whole thing at $450.00 and that included 4 vents and an entry way. I think it would look pretty cool with the log siding.

Remember, my place is about 4' off the ground and this stuff would attach (screw) to the metal bracing. Better yet, it would be nice to frame the stuff onto pressure treated 2x's or even 1x's.

Here's a pic of a panel of the stuff:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120712_110131.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 13, 2012, 12:52:10 PM
Friday Afternoon - July 13th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Been up there on top of the roof a lot this morning and this afternoon.

Yesterday I tried to straddle the top and roll out the felt up there while I held it with the top of my foot while unrolling it. I put the first nail in while lining up the edge and then unrolled it about 3 feet and put another nail in, then another 3 feet and...it was crooked. So I rolled it back up, tore out the nails and decided to just put one nail in at the corner and that way it can pivot while I unroll a bunch of it and swivel it to make it straight. Well, I was unrolling it (with only that one nail at the corner edge holding it) and when I got just over the half way point the felt ripped out of the nail and slide down the roof. (Yes, I'm using the #30 cheap felt and not the Titanium stuff, I got impatient and didn't want to travel and/or wait to buy it so I bought what was available - 2 rolls of #30).

After that I decided the best way to go about it is to just put up a bunch of roof brackets and boards and unroll it while on the roof and not straddling the top. I also purchased some large eye wood screws and screwed them in on each end at the very top of the roof. Then I tied 3 strands of rope and cord between and in them. I also bought a 30' long 20,000 lb capacity tow ribbon and put it around the top rope. I'll use that to hold onto and wrap around.

The only thing I don't have and wish I did have was that safety harness. I have one lined up to get early next week. I'm getting the impression and now believe that putting the felt on is actually a harder job than putting on the roof sheathing osb!

I got a another load of wood so right after I'm done with the felt, I'm going to frame the gable ends in and put the osb on the outside of that framing. Other than all that, all is well.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: UK4X4 on July 13, 2012, 01:11:08 PM
Not sure wether your trying to do this using the whole roll or just what you need for that one run
Spend the time and set out your foot stays to work off of

Safety first !

Then think of using a full width batten as your anchor to be removed later
Stretch out the whole width and batten the other end then go back
And neatly stretch and nail as required

Enjoy !
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on July 13, 2012, 02:50:16 PM
Al the felt will not last long if the wind would happen to catch a loose edge.  You might consider using 1X scraps and tack them down on the seams.  Felt also has a tendency to curl up and buckle once it is heated up(sun) and cools off.  I would not wait that long before putting the metal on the roof.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on July 13, 2012, 05:08:47 PM
I usually put 2 or 3 nails in the top corner, unroll 20 or 30 feet of felt if the wind allows, lap line over line on the felt and use buttonkaps at ~6" spacing on that lower edge and buttonkaps over each rafter down the center of the sheet (that locates the rafters for the roofers and their roof jacks later) If the wind exposure is bad I'll either strip the seams or string them with masons twine wrapped around under the caps and pulled taught as I drive them, very slow going. I haven't done any of that since the synthetics arrived.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 13, 2012, 09:02:33 PM
Friday Night - July 13th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Quick comment: I got my builders risk home insurance today. They asked me if I was going to do a metal roof and then they asked me what gauge it'll be. I told them 26 gauge and they said good because there's a discount on that. Come to find out, the discount is $175.00 a year! I thought, "Wow!".

If I chose shingles, I would have to pay the purchase price for them and then $175 every year there after for not going metal. But, because I'm going with metal, the insurance will pay for the roof in 6 to 8 years. I thought that was pretty cool.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on July 13, 2012, 09:08:24 PM
Wow!  What a good deal. I think that's a better deal than what we got when we re-roofed from std shingles to metal (26 ga). We got what amounts to 10% off the total premium. That's about $50 a year at present. (in our case the old shingles had to be removed to ontain the metal roof discount.)

State Farm
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on July 13, 2012, 09:37:09 PM
I'm going to sidetrack for a minute. Those skirting panels cost $22.50/ea. I've seen similar things done to skirt later, there are some additional costs involved there. The piers cost money. A Permanent wood foundation starts looking pretty good costwise and not far from block.

The cracking around the piers is saying that the fill soil has lost the moisture that was presnt when you filled them and the soil surrounding the piers is no longer tight and providing lateral resistance. There's the reason I disregard the soil as a bracing element.

Now to a harness. If you have some webbing, center it and wrap it around your waist and tie with an overhand knot wrapped 2 times and pulled snug. Drop the two ends between your legs and wrap them around your legs. Tuck the free end behind the part that dropped down and tie it off with a double half hitch. Repeat for the other leg. Hook your locking ring around the double overhand and hook the prussic to your safety rope and the locking carabiner. The safety rope should also pass thru the carabiner, around you and back thru the biner. You're now tied in two ways and adjustable.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on July 14, 2012, 05:44:52 AM
Al without sounding critical of your choice of building materials you might want to reconsider the plastic rock panels.  I have seen these used in different applications.  On each they still look like fake plastic rocks.  Their main purpose I believe was for Mobil Home skirting.  That portion of your build is not critical now and I believe their are other choices out there which will compliment the craftsmanship that you have put into your build thus far.  They do make rock panels that are far better than those.  There is a multitude of materials that you could use in their place which will compliment your hard work.  Yes it is cheap but don't fall prey to the cost gobblin.

What Don is describing is very similar to the "Swiss Army Seat" that I used several years ago when I was repelling.  Simple but effective.

http://www.modernforces.com/article_swiss_seat.htm
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on July 14, 2012, 07:32:34 AM
i am with redoverfarm.


btw, what insurance co are you using?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 14, 2012, 12:52:59 PM
Thank you Don, redoverfarm, and CjAl:

Your right redoverfarm, I will investigate other choices when the time comes - after my siding is on. Very good info once again Don_P, I'll have to sit down and concentrate on how you've explained that webbing harness. I will also have to learn to tie some knots...I don't get too far past tying my shoes.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 15, 2012, 06:40:57 AM
Sunday Morning - July 15th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Got the first row of felt up at the top on the south side. I started at the top and am going down so that I won't leave roof jack holes and have to walk around on the felt as I go. I just made sure that I didn't staple or plastic cap nail the last lower 6" so that I can slip pieces of the next row under them and then staple them.

I bought one of those Arrow hammer staplers and a box of 5000 staples from Lowe's and that's what I'm using to initially put down my #30 felt. That stapler cost $31.95 and the box of staples were $9.95.

One thing I realized and please tell me if I'm wrong, the felt (underlayment) is meant to be a vapor barrier and not something that is going to totally seal the roof from water. I noticed that if I hammered those staples a little to hard, they would puncture the felt to the wood. Also, you just bend that cheap #15 or #30 felt a little too much and it'll crack and break. Yes, I would have felt a lot better if I waited and traveled to pick up that good titanium felt but finances and time were an issue.

Also, as I think I've said before - at first I was locked into the thought of rolling out the felt and trying to lay it out all in one piece and that didn't work with just me doing it by myself. So I cut 6' to 8' lengths on the ground and then brought them up and laid each one out onto the chalk line that I snapped at the bottom. I overlapped them 4" to 6".

I've got the first row up there done using staples. After church this morning I'm going to start again but I'm going to go up there and redo the parts where I think the wind can catch, I'll use plastic cap nails there, then I'll start into the next roll.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/7-14-2012felt.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on July 15, 2012, 06:53:07 AM
al you can run a piece across the peak and tack it on both.sides. it will keep rain out of your house, just remember to cut it out to open up your ridge vent when you do the roofing

the felt will keep out any water that gets behind your metal so its kind of as important as the roofing althout you hope to not get water under the metal. plus metal sweats
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 15, 2012, 07:05:06 AM
Oh, thanks for that CjAl. I'm going to try to get the metal asap but I first have to frame the gable ends.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on July 15, 2012, 07:14:05 AM
i had felt only on my shed for a month. it rained a lot and the lower edges were curling up but it was still holding water out. on the ends i cut it long and folded it over the edges and stapled it off just to help keep the water out untill i got the metal on then i trimmed it back
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 15, 2012, 03:41:29 PM
I was at Lowe's today (lately, what day wasn't I at Lowe's) and saw their skylights. The particular one that I was interested in was the 2' x 4' fixed model. I seemed pretty reasonable for only $183.00. The opening fits right between two 2' rafters.

Many times when I talk to people and ask them about skylights many people say they leak. Would this be hard to install in my 12/12 pitch metal roof? Do I first put the metal on and then later cut the hole and install the skylight or is it best to install the skylight while the felt is on and then install the metal roof and work around the skylight?

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/7-15-2012skylite.jpg)

Price tag:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/7-15-2012skyliteprice.jpg)

Here's a link to the products video (very good explainations):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVwGQhcFcBQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVwGQhcFcBQ)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on July 15, 2012, 03:46:44 PM
Velux makes some good skylights. They are nice for the light they admit, but they are also a huge "heat loss/gain hole" in the insulation, no matter how good they are. It's a balancing act.

Velux also has some special flashing for installation on metal roofs. We have some, I like them. Mostly.

Never any leaks. 20+ years and counting with a re-roof and reflash a half dozen or so years ago.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on July 15, 2012, 06:23:46 PM
I put two in an addition I build some 10-12 years ago.  No leaks (  d* on wood).  Not real sure of the manufacturer but they have gas filled insulated glass and during the winter on heavy snow periods there will be as much as 18"-24" sitting over them for extended periods of time.  Not to mention that one is almost directly above my wood stove.  They are insulated the best that I have seen.  They are on a shingle roof.

If you get any make sure that you get the flashing kit for metal roofs.  I don't know how many horror stories I have heard from people about skylights and metal roofs.  But I imagine that they were just using a shingle flashing and cases of chaulking. ;)

To answer your question about "when".  The skylights should be installed at the time of the metal installation.  That way you can work the flashing in with the metal roofing.  I believe that if you attempt to install now you will have to flash and them remove the flash when your metal is installed.  What you can do in preparation if you decide to install them for sure is to frame out (header the rafters) for the rough opening. The width should be around 22-1/2" ID.  You can drill corner holes as markers later for the cut out position which will be OK covered with Tar paper. That will take the guess work out of where they actually go. Then later chaulk line the demensions from hole to hole and use a circular saw to remove your OSB for the skylight.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on July 16, 2012, 05:43:30 AM
I went back through my paperwork and they were "Pella's".
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 16, 2012, 02:28:31 PM
Monday Afternoon - July 16th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Thanks for that skylight information redoverfarm. I'll look into that brand name Pella. The only reason I noticed Velux is because that's all I found at Lowe's.

Well, I got more felt on today. I've only been stapling the felt on so far, just to get it up there. I'll tell ya what, it is really slow going up there...and hot too! I could barely touch the felt after I laid it out and the sun started to shine on it. I think the hardest part about it all is moving and replacing the 2x4 boards and the roof brackets.

Here's a pic - don't look at those wrinkles!

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/7-16-2012felt.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on July 16, 2012, 02:44:38 PM
how much are you overlapping the ends?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 16, 2012, 02:48:15 PM
bout 4" CjAl
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on July 16, 2012, 02:50:35 PM
think i would be going at least a foot. thats the prob with cutting it, just like installing it vertically needs to have the exposure tightened up. just my opinion, mabey someone else has an idea
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: UK4X4 on July 16, 2012, 06:59:10 PM
Velux- quality product- have 4 on my UK house roof- set into concrete tiles- with the flashing kit to suit

We have enough rain to prove they work !

10 years and counting - no leaks

Really open a room with the natural light

(https://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g165/POshaughnessy/DSC00443.jpg)
(https://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g165/POshaughnessy/DSC00447.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 16, 2012, 08:30:41 PM
Wow, that's awesome UK4X4 - thanks for sharing that with us.

I hope the installation won't be too difficult with my metal roof. By the way, is your house a countryplan place?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 17, 2012, 02:44:30 PM
Tuesday Afternoon - July 17th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

I was able to buy 2 harnesses today off a guy for $30.00. The big leather one used to also attach to some kind of saddle for climbing trees but it's pretty tight around the waist and feels pretty good.

The Miller Harness is a nice average one but I don't have a clutch assembly so the only thing I can do right now is tie knots through the loop. I would love to buy a clutch for it but I have no idea where to go to get one.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/7-17-2012harness.jpg)

I'm also ready to frame my gable ends. The gable end framing looks a little tricky. I guess I can't frame it like a wall and then set it in place and then nail it like I did the lower walls because of the angle cuts that I'll have to do where the studs meet the rafter. It should be a simple frame job because all I have is 3'x5' window openings on each side of the ridge post, 2 on each gable end. My plan is to have the window flange of each side rest against the ridge posts on each end. That ridge post is 6-1/2" wide so I believe there's enough room for a window on each side.

Should I frame the window opening (3'x5'), put the header up top, and then set that into the framing that I'll attach to the rafter? I'm not really sure how I'll go about this yet. I just hate to toe nail and I wish that I could figure out a way to do it on the ground and then just lift it into position and nail it. Any suggestions?

Here's gable end pics:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/7-17-2012gableend1.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/7-17-2012gableend2.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/7-17-2012gableend3.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on July 17, 2012, 03:26:21 PM
i know you like swinging that hammer but toe nailing is SOOO much easier with a gun
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on July 17, 2012, 04:17:37 PM
AL normally trying to pre-build a partition to set into a space doesn't work out.  Yes you would think that exact measurments should suffice. Nah.  Most gable ends are built in place piece by piece.  Everything can be done from the floor in the loft.  Same principles apply regarding top plate, bottom plate and studs.  Just cut the top plate with the correct angle and nail in place.  Same goes for the floor plate.  Then fill in with studs with the angle cut correct to length.  If you are not confortable toenailing then pick you up a couple pounds of 3-3&1/2" heavy deck screws and use them.  Or a combination of both screws to anchor in place and then toenail. Just make sure that the wall is plumb.

In regards to the ridge pole and the windows.  My first instinct would be no.  The ridge is transfering the weight of the roof.  If there is any settling it will draw the window with it if secured to the pole and may cause problems with their operation later.  It appears that you have enough width on either side to center the windows at the correct heigth to give that uniform look.  Just like the attachment to the ridge pole on the other side I wouldn't butt them up against the rafter either. 
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 17, 2012, 06:04:33 PM
Hey, I know your right about the nail gun CjAl BUT, I've gone this far without one and
the gable end framing hopefully won't take too long so I guess I'll hold off on buying a gun.

Great advice about not attaching the loft windows to the ridge post redoverfarm, I didn't think about them settling.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: UK4X4 on July 17, 2012, 07:34:25 PM
"By the way, is your house a countryplan place"

Nope a sturdy  brick cavity wall construction

it was built before the internet- and had an outhouse and a fire place in each room....Built year 1900 ish

It started with a slate roof- and central chimney- lead water pipes and cloth covered wires.

I ripped the ceilings out after a water tank leak wrecked the wattle and daub, sat down covered in crap enjoying  a well earn't cider I looked up into the attic space and thought - wow this would be awsome opened out.

Then out came the hammer and saw......now back to the thread

There will be a specific kit for a steel roof- must be easier than concrete tiles !
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on July 17, 2012, 08:14:38 PM
It looks like studs notched around the rafters in place, I would continue doing that . My first stud would be 3" wider than the rough opening width of the window to allow for a jack beside that stud and at the center post. The header doesn't really need to be more than 2x4's on edge. Oftentimes if a bad toenail is the choice you can figure out how to block it and get a good nail in.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 18, 2012, 10:27:44 AM
Wednesday Morning - July 18th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

I just got back from my local lumber company. I bought 70' of drip edge.

Am I to understand that even though I'm going with the metal roof, I'll still need to put that metal strip of drip edge on the eaves but not the rake ends? I say not the rake ends because apparently there's metal rake trim that does the job of a metal strip of drip edge - am I right in saying that?

I also thought there was eave trim available, but I guess even if there is eave trim for the metal roof, I still have to use the drip edge.

Another note:

I priced the 2" x 8" Hem Fur log siding for my 20x30 countryplan. I measured the width of the siding and it's 7 inches. I told the lumber man my dimensions of 20x30 with a 12:12 pitch and included the gable ends up to the top. Total price was: $1,700. I thought that was a pretty good price. They said you should treat it once every 2 years. At that price, I could do the front first, then the back, and then the sides. So I guess for around $400 or $500 I can get the front totally done right after I put in my windows and my door. The guy also said that the best way to trim around the door and windows is to use rough cedar 2x's.

Does anyone know how good the hem fur log siding stands up to the weather and time?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: suburbancowboy on July 18, 2012, 11:00:07 AM
My log siding was very white when I got it.  Some of it has been on for a month now and has yellowed quite a bit.  Looks lots better.  Next week I will start treating it with UV protector so the color will quit changing.  Problem I have had with the log siding it that in longer lengths there is a lot of warping and twisting.  Also the widths and curve has been up to 1/2 inch different.  I was putting some of it on last night.  It was in 16' lengths.  Quite a job 12 feet up on one ladder by your self.  I ended up cutting them into 8' lengths and the work went twice as fast.  Go figure.

Almost got killed last night coming home.  An elk jumped in front of me coming around a corner and stood right in the middle of the road.  I swerved went off the road into the gravel and did a little drifting as I got control and made it back on the road.  Glad to be alive today. ;)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: John Raabe on July 18, 2012, 03:16:26 PM
Glad you made it around that corner. A big elk can be an impressive stop sign!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on July 18, 2012, 08:36:09 PM
With log siding I like to power plane a relief groove down the middle of the back so that it lays flat on the wall, some companies mill this when they are making the siding.I build staining troughs out of lumber and plywood, glued and caulked throughly and stain the entire piece. We screw the siding on from the backside, very few exposed fasteners. You can use as many screws as it takes to pull a piece flat... it does take 2 people.

The metal roofing supplier will have matching edge trim metal, sit down with them and plan out your package, you can go from none to several options. None is not good in the wind. what are you doing the bottom edge for, there is a transition and porch metal at the bottom of what you're doing now. This metal will not make you watertight at the bottom.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 18, 2012, 10:44:42 PM
Wednesday Night - July 18th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Well, I've got all of the osb covered with felt on one side, the south side. As you can see, I've left the lower part open for where the porch rafters will go BUT (here I go changing my mind again...sorry). I was going to simply cover the open area with felt and attach it to the rafters and then go to the other side and do the same there and then leave it that way till I can do the porch. One thought was that it would be pretty lose and blowing in the wind. The width of that opening is 31". Then I thought about putting osb there but only nailing it in a few places so that it can be removed easily later after I build the deck and am ready for the porch rafters.

Well, I have yet to also frame the loft gable ends and that will take some time. Then, I have to get all the windows and doors in and then do the siding. Some where in between all that I'll be putting the metal on the roof. All of this building is going to take me some time, before ya know it - winter will be here. So my thought is that I had better hurry and get all that I can done and get in the place, to the point where no rain gets in.

ALL THAT TO SAY: I'm thinking about putting that 31" wide osb on top of the roof in a permanent fashion, put the drip edge on the eave, cover it with felt, and then put the metal all the way down...like I was never going to have a porch. Then, in the future, I can decide whether to use a ledger under the main roof or cut the metal away, pop out that 31" of osb, and then shove the porch rafters through - at a later date.

I'm definitely going to have porches, just maybe not as quick as I'd like. Thoughts?

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120718_144655.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on July 19, 2012, 05:57:08 AM
I'd talk to the supplier and see if they have damaged and cover sheets that will cover the lower gap + about 6-12" and then order the upper metal the correct length. Screw a 1x or scrap osb across the lower edge and apply the scrap metal first... hang it over the wood an inch or two, no drip edge. Apply the upper metal lapped ocer the lower and scrwe thru both sheets. Continue securing the upper sheet. When the time comes back out the lower screws and remove the lower sheet and purlin, install the porch framing, the porch metal and tuck the transition under. No field cutting later. The gable framing can wait till you are dry. Pick out the skylights and have them and the flashing ready. I've used velux exclusively for the last decade or 2 with good results, the only leak was on metal where the crew made their own flashings.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: AdironDoc on July 19, 2012, 06:34:33 AM
Quote from: UK4X4 on July 16, 2012, 06:59:10 PM


(https://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g165/POshaughnessy/DSC00447.jpg)

Awesome vanity! Really creative. Two thumbs way up  [cool]
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 19, 2012, 07:39:41 AM
Thursday Morning - July 19th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

I have some thoughts about how I should proceed but first...

That is an awesome vanity that UK4X4 did AdironDoc. Those look like wicker drawers and it almost looks like the whole thing was made around them. I love the way the sink faucet is cocked to the right side and also how the front lower doors stop short from the diameter of the sink. AND, for a second, those medicine cabinet mirrors make it look like there's another room through glass! Are those lower right toggle switches controlling the two upper recessed lights? Anyway...

Don_P, your ideas are great! Thanks for letting me know that. Putting a temporary 'scrap' row of metal on the bottom and not having to cut it later is an awesome idea. And going with the screws instead of nails, I keep forgetting about screwing somethimes.

One thing though, you mentioned that I should wait to do the gable ends till I'm dry. That sounds like you think I should concentrate on the roof and get all the metal and skylights done BEFORE I ever do the loft gable end framing. I guess I could do that but right now I have all of the material to do the framing but I don't have the money just yet for the roof metal and skylights. My thought is to get all of the felt on, then do the loft gable end framing, and by that time I'll be able to 'start' purchasing the metal and skylights. That #30 felt may not be the best rain stopper but it sure helps.

I wanted to mention one more thing about those velux skylights. I miscalculated the price and also didn't think of the flashing cost. It seems those Velux skylights that are made for the metal roof are much more expensive. The one I saw at Lowe's was curb style for a shingle roof. That one's not made for a metal roof? Anyway, I was looking at flashing kit prices and they cost twice as much as the skylight! I'll have to call Velux to get a good figure but I think each skylight will total at around $400 plus! The flashing kits for metal roofs are over $300 alone.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on July 19, 2012, 08:11:29 AM
n my opinion you definatly need to get the roof on next. you have 2' overhangs, only a driving rain is getting in get a lid on it. plus the longer that felt is exposed the faster it deteriorates

if you already have the supplies for the gable ends and cant buy the metal yet then i guess there is no loss in doing it but the roof is definatly the next thing i would spend money on.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on July 19, 2012, 08:30:44 AM
AL just to add more fuel to the fire as if it is not hot enough now that you have been overwhelmed by procedures and steps.  You might check with the metal provider and see if they can get a special type screw used in attaching the metal roof.  Normally they are 1/4" hex head.  I found some screws (color matched) that give the roof a cleaner/neater look.  They are torx recessed head metal roof screws.  They are virtually hidden in appearence and they will not catch debris (rounded head) as much as the higher profile hex heads.  Here is a picture.



(https://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd161/redoverfarm/hightop/100_4792-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: UK4X4 on July 19, 2012, 10:16:53 AM
Another hand up to say concentrate on the roof ! and yes the proper flashing kit is almost as much as the window - but they work...

Vanity wise it's a botch job- all reclaimed timber - the top is 2x6's, the doors are 1x6 old floor boards

The mirrow doors have a cupboard behind them hacked out of the original chimney breast, the right hand side closed in sections covers the on demand boiler, hence the switch's
the upper section just all pulls out the lower is a door for service access

and back to the thread !
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 19, 2012, 06:14:26 PM
Thursday Night - July 19th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Well, I started to put down that last row of osb and man, it was hard getting it up there. I couldn't lean the ladder in between the rafters because that's where the osb was going to lay. I'm using one of those 4-way scaffold ladders and I tried to fold down 1 end and then lean it up against the front wall but then I didn't have leverage to slip the pieces of osb up above me and behind me without falling backwards. I'm doing it in 4' long sections because I can't manage lifting it up the ladder and slipping them in place if there any bigger than that.

I ended up having to nail a board stop at the end of the rafters to hold the osb in place. I also tried with all of my strength to hold and position the osb and to also screw them in with the gun. I just couldn't get the leverage that I needed and still be safe while trying to screw them in so I just gave up and nailed them.

Very tedious work, folding and unfolding that ladder and then repositioning it all the time...in 100 degree heat and no shade.

Maybe I'll just make a ledger under this main roof and build my porch roof from that - leave the main roof alone...I don't know - too hot out!

Here's todays pic:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120719_144907.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 20, 2012, 06:05:26 PM
Friday Night - July 20th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

It was very hot today (104+) but I still was able to spend about 5 hours on and around the roof. I have
all the osb on the south side now, tomorrow I'll finish with the felt and then move onto the other side.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120720_133552.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 21, 2012, 06:08:32 PM
Saturday Afternoon - July 21st, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Finishing up my #30 felt on the south side.

I clamped 2 pieces of long skinny osb to each side of the ladder at the middle and it helped to steady it a lot. This scaffold type ladder that I've been using throughout my whole build had been awesome. It'll even fold up enough to fit in a car. It unfolds to about 20 feet.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120721_120336.jpg)

Here's a picture of the place with the south side totally felted. I also put my first strip of drip edge on.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120721_141817.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120721_141745.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 25, 2012, 07:25:31 AM
Wednesday Morning - July 25th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Finished my felt and drip-edge on the south side and now onto the north side. Getting very close to purchasing my metal sheets. There are so many metal companies that sell sheets, I've been calling different ones now for days.

Here's a really good pdf file, a Metal Roof Guide.

One thing I noticed in it was where they talk about underlayment and that it should be the polymer because they will last so much longer than the #15/#30 felts.

Here's the link:

http://www.classicmetalroofs.com/docs/Insiders_Guide.pdf (http://www.classicmetalroofs.com/docs/Insiders_Guide.pdf)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: suburbancowboy on July 25, 2012, 02:23:34 PM
When you get the metal make sure you get the matching screws at the same time.  Over estimate by twenty five percent.  You will drop a bunch of them.  Also get a couple of driver sockets for the screws.  I found the metal was easier to put on than the osb was.  Also make sure you have heavy metal gloves.  One slip and you can be out of the game for a couple of weeks for a cut to heal.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 25, 2012, 05:45:32 PM
Wednesday Afternoon - July 25th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

I decided to make scaffolding on the unfinished side of my roof. I just have to add a couple more long 2x12's and then I'll also cover it up with scrap osb to make a semi-floor. I could even go so far as adding a few upright boards for a guard rail - it all makes me feel better up there.

What you see so far only took me a few hours and left over 2x4's. I made sure they were level while nailing them to the window and door jacks. I remember Don_P mentioning a little bit about this so I took his advise. I braced it by screwing the angle 2x4's up at the top and nailing them at the bottom. I had a left over 34 foot long 2x8 and I used that up at the top and out at the edge.

I feel way better up there with that platform right below the roof line. I'll go ahead and do this to the other side since I have to put the metal up there also.

Here's the pics:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120725_144721.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120725_144711.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120725_144733.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on July 25, 2012, 06:26:14 PM
AL you could continue the same practice at the ends of what you have.  Just temporarily attach to the studs on the gable ends of house using the same configuration that you used on the front.  As it is now sort of reminds me of a diving board.   ;)It will allow you to work out farther close to the corners.

I believe you stated previously that you were going to have the metal roofing company install your metal roof.  But you also said previously you were going with shingles. If you do decide to install your own here is a few things that will make it a little simpler.

Most people put way too many screws in the roof.  They are doubling their chances for leaks.  The screws go in the valley's not the peaks.  On the bottom edge I place a screw in each of the valleys adjacent to the peaks about 2-3" up from the drip edge(wind protection).  On the area between the eve and the ridge I measure about every 36-42" for a horizontal row where the screws will be and mark the location to be drilled. I use a Drywall square ( will reach the entire width).  That measurement depends on the distance or run of the metal. You can adjust that evenly so that the same space appears uniform between the row.  On that interm space I place one screw in the valley adjacent to the peak and one in the middle valley.    I pre-drill all of my holes at that specific location(horizontal run) on each sheet.  Yes Yes Yes some say that they will self tap.  That is not always the case with painted metal. You end up with scratches and a not so neat hole that water will penetrate and it will rust at the scratches.  It is so much easier to start the screw and get a good verticle plane on the screw.  On the top row (Actually under the ridge) you do not need to put but a few screws just to hold in place.  You will put additional screws which will penetrate that sheet from the attachment of the ridge cap/vent.

I have seen some (even on this forum) apply the screws in rows( every 12") and even every indentation in hte sheet including the ridges.  Too many screws will destort the metal and double if not tripple your chances for failure with leaks.  When embedding the screws just draw down enough to slightly bulge the washer.  You cannot rely on torx adjustment of drills and drivers because OSB has varing density and what is right for one area will either over draw or under draw at others.  Low speed on the drivers helps to regulate the accuracy.  With pre-drilling they go in effortlessly into the OSB. 

Yes you can but you can also do it where it is efficent and looks good as well.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 25, 2012, 06:43:35 PM
Thanks for the great comments Redoverfarm.

Yes, I am going with 26 gauge green metal and yes I am doing it myself, thus the need for the scafolding. I know that I need one more support at each end of my new scafolding, I'll get to that tomorrow.

I will continue to reread what you have in order for it to sink in. Thanks again Redoverfarm.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: new land owner on July 25, 2012, 07:04:37 PM
I'll bet your happy to be getting to roof on.  It is a good felling once your project is dried in.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 25, 2012, 07:15:50 PM
Ya, that's for sure 'new land owner'.

Thanks for your post!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 26, 2012, 06:18:05 PM
Thursday - July 26th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Put the end supports on and began to put some scrap osb down.

Like I've mentioned earlier, I feel much better with this platform below me while I'm up there on the roof.
Also, working on those rafter ends and the bottom portion of the osb seems like a breeze while standing up
there (but not to strong of one).

All of this has taken me probably about 5 total hours, I think it's worth it.

Here's pics:
(2 more pics coming soon)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120726_144829.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120726_141710.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120726_141654.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on July 26, 2012, 07:46:42 PM
so what do you think the odds are of you being able to grab that board as your slidding down the roof?  ???

im thinking 40%  ;D
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: UK4X4 on July 26, 2012, 09:34:31 PM
Al's done the hard part - just the metal to go- ladder hooked over the apex and the walk way,
I'd say the 5 hours was worth it
certainly going to be easy to do the facia and sofit !
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 27, 2012, 02:33:29 PM
Friday Afternoon - July 27th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Finally done with the scaffolding on the north side. I even put up a guard rail made out of two 20' long chain link fence top posts. Now I'll start to put the toe boards and roof brackets up there and then I'll felt it.

Here's pics:
(4 pics coming soon)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/7-27-2012roofscafold1.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/7-27-2012roofscafold2.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/7-27-2012roofscafold3.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/7-27-2012roofscafold4.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 28, 2012, 10:16:06 PM
Saturday - July 28th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

I've added a little bit more to the platform such as a middle height guardrail and I also locked the ladder
in place with some small boards.

I've started to attach the roof brackets and boards for me to stand on while I felt it. I can already tell
that things are going much faster than the other side without the platform. No more moving ladders all the
time and stuff. The platform is worth it!
(pic coming soon)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/7-28-2012northscaffold.jpg)

I have a small window question: I bought this window off of someone from work. It's not a new construction window
and I was wondering if I need to buy some kind of window framing before I put it into the opening OR do I just
put it in as is and caulk around it. From the looks of it, that's what the last person did. Here's the pic:
(Pic coming soon)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120723_131247.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 30, 2012, 07:54:37 PM
Monday - July 30th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Getting more and more done on the back side:
(Pic coming soon)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120730_130222.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on August 01, 2012, 08:11:34 PM
Wednesday - August 1st, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Someone suggested 'another' metal place for me to get a quote from for my metal roof and I like their
knowledge and prices. They said the same number of sheets as others (12 per side / 24 total) but he
also went over the in's and out's much more than other people. I was talking to the owner of the place and
I could tell that he really knew his stuff and he was patient and very helpful. The owner is the one who does the
quotes at this place and calls back the customer, I like that as opposed to secretaries who are the only ones
who talk to you.

Anyway, some of the things he said was that the metal should stick out beyond the eave edge 2". They
also quoted me for drip edge that's the same color as the roofing metal (green). He also quoted me for
16" wide ridge cap/vent and quoted me to use that versa-vent stuff. He mentioned that I should use the
bubblewrap insulation and that it did great for his business shop of his. He said that if I used the bubble
wrap on top of the #30 felt and under the metal, it would cool my inside 20 degrees less in this hot weather.
The bubble wrap price was $300 so the whole quote, rake trim, screws and all, came out to be $1,800.

I told him that I planned on doing it myself but I've been thinking lately that it wouldn't hurt to get a quote
from a reputable metal roof installer who has done it many years and does it for a living. He gave me the
number to a guy right away and I called him for a quote. So I called the installer and talked to him and I
told him my place was pretty high off the ground and also a 12:12 pitch. He said he'd do my roof
for $1,200. He asked me a bunch of questions of course and he seems like a real nice guy to do business
with.

When I told him about my ridge vent opening up at the top he asked me about the ridge cap dimension that was
quoted to me by the metal guy. I told him that the metal guy quoted me for a 16" wide one. The installer
mentioned that I should go with a minimum of 18" for the 12:12 pitch and that a 20" would be the best. He
said those bigger dimensioned ones look a lot better way up there.

So all in all, to get my metal roof and have a pro put it on will cost me $3000. Is that about average
for a countryplan 20x30?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: suburbancowboy on August 02, 2012, 09:55:28 AM
That is about what I payed for my 20X36.  If you can afford to have the installer put on your metal do it.  Me and my step son put ours on cause I couldn't find anybody that would install for anything close to the price you quoted.  That was by far the scariest part of the build.  Plus with the heat down there it will be worth it.  Plus this way you can get a start on electrical or siding.  By the way have you got any quotes on your log siding yet?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on August 03, 2012, 06:05:49 PM
Friday - August 3rd, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Got the rest of the osb put on the north side and also layed down another row of felt.

Two more rows of felt and then wait for the metal. While waiting, I'll begin to frame the
gable ends. (I have to get rid of that nasty wood pile)
(2 pics coming soon)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120803_141536.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120803_141555.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: rick91351 on August 03, 2012, 07:11:16 PM
Don't know 'bout movin' da' wood pile Al might break your fall before da' ground.

c*

rlr
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on August 03, 2012, 08:06:29 PM
Believe me Rick, I've thought of that already.

A lot of things run through your mind when your up on a 12:12!

Thanks for the post.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on August 03, 2012, 09:10:01 PM
do you have any pictures of you standing up in the loft area? i am curiouse to see how much room there is. i keep trying to lessen the roof pitch but i am affraid of loosing too much space. i would like to go down to a 8/12 but thats loosing like 40"
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on August 03, 2012, 09:56:02 PM
Hey CjAl - good to hear from ya again.

Here's a couple pics of the loft area before it's framed. No one standing there but there's
a chair there and that should give you a good perception of things. The other picture has
a desk there...

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/7-17-2012gableend3.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/7-17-2012gableend2.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on August 03, 2012, 10:07:39 PM
thanks Al, i am still kicking around the idea of a shallower pitch with a large shed dormer off the rear of the house.for more usable room. not sure yet. complicating the roof lines increases the roofing price.

how low are your loft floor joists? i will have open joist bays so i may lower the ceilings as much as possible.  mabey 6'6" at low side of joists with the top of the bay being about 7'2" would make a ceiling fan a bit dangerous though.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on August 04, 2012, 04:29:49 PM
Saturday - August 4th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

I put house wrap on top of the vent space at the very top so that rain won't get in.
(4 pics coming soon)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120804_115305.jpg)

Finished all the osb and put all of the #30 felt on that I had left:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120802_120052.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120802_120122.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120804_140405.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: JavaMan on August 06, 2012, 10:48:41 AM
I sure am glad to see I'm not the only one with a "wood pile" in front of my build.  ;D

Looks great, Al!  I envy you getting your felt on.  I'm still trying to get the trusses up!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on August 06, 2012, 11:20:20 PM
Monday Night - August 6th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Thanks for the post JavaMan - great to see you again.

We moved our RV out of the back woods and up in front and to the side of the build. It was a hassle
being in the woods - now it's in the open. Only problem is that it's in the sun much more now.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/8-06-2012rv-in-front.jpg)

I'm excited about some good log siding I've found near me. I guy has his own planner and I have a 6 foot
sample that's been given to me. He only charges .85 cents a foot for it. I'm going to go see him tomorrow hopefully.

Here's some pics of the 6 foot sample that was given to me:
(2 pics coming soon)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/eufaulalogsiding3.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/eufaulalogsiding.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on August 08, 2012, 08:17:42 AM
Wednesday Morning - August 8th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

I got an email from the metal roofer installer after I emailed him some pics of my roof and rafter ends.

He wants me to put on the facia board and cover the 'raw' 2x6's going up the rakes.
Here's what he emailed me and wants me to do:

"The roof looks good , I was wondering if you are going to put soffit and facer board on , as for putting on the roof it does not need soffit but it does need the facer board on. I was also concerned with the raw 2x6's going up the rakes, if your not going to put a facer board on I would wrap them with metal."

My rafter ends were not cut and are at a 45 degree angle to the ground. My rafters are 2x8's.

QUESTIONS: What size facia board should I use? What should I cover those rake 2x6's up with?

Here's a picture of the ends of my rafters and a picture of my rakes:
(1 pic coming soon)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120726_141710.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/7-17-2012gableend1.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on August 08, 2012, 04:16:28 PM
Al it all depends on what you are going to use for soffit and what you want it appearence wise.  I thought at one time you were going to put a porch on and tie the porch rafters to the roof with transition.  Personally I like a 90 deg (plumb) fascia to the ground. To me it makes more sense when you are installing guttering.    As for the fascia demensions it all depends on your soffit.  You want your fascia to cover the raw edge of the soffit material (ply, vinyle, 3/4 board or other) and then approx 3/4" below the soffit face (excluding vinyle). 

As for the rake board again what are you going to use for soffit.  That metal needs to be long enough to cover(45 deg bend at bottom) to cover the soffit.  You will also have to nail a false rafter(of sorts) against your sheeting on the gable end level with you ouside rafter to give you something to anchor or attach your soffit to.  As it looks now that rafter is the end rafter on the edge of your wall and will be covered with sheeting.  If you are going with strictly wood soffit and trim/fascia that needs installed before the rake metal or drip edge.

Your metal installer should ( most do) have metal breaks and should be able to break a piece of coil stock or flat stock color matched for the rake metal.  They also make the metal for that application that is color matched to the roof color but again you have to determine the demensions by the soffit material being used to know what width you need. They usually are in 10' lengths which are started at the bottom and run to the peak overlapped at the joints. 

So you have several steps and decisions to make before you are ready for your metal.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on August 08, 2012, 05:45:49 PM
I cut my rafter tails like yours are shown as Al. I am now sorry I did not cut then plumb as John mentioned above. Originally I had no intention of installing rain gutters. Times change though. I did install gutters on one side so far. I was able to buy special hanger brackets, but they are more difficult to use than the normal methods of attaching gutters to plumb facia.

Our soffits are installed on the underside of the rafters. Another mistake, IMO. I now believe the soffits would have been better if framed out to permit the soffit to be installed parallel to the ground rather than parallel to the roof sheathing (under the rafter tails).

Food for thought....
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on August 08, 2012, 08:18:19 PM
Wednesday Night - August 8th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Thanks guys, I'm going to have to chew on that 'food for thought' for awhile and figure out what
I'm going to do as far as facias and soffits go. I wish it was easy but I guess that seldom happens here.

I've started to frame my gable ends. I'll be putting in 3' x 5' windows, one on each side - 4 in all.
(1 pic coming soon)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/8-08-2012loft20framing1.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on August 08, 2012, 09:59:43 PM
We talked about this a bit before, it starts around here;
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=10641.650
If you are setting the porch rafters like you were talking about the installer likely has scrap sheets to do the temporary bottom. If you talk to him about setting it up for the porch later with the understanding that he will get the work he will  think through those details as he puts this phase of the roof on.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on August 09, 2012, 01:08:54 PM
Thursday Afternoon - August 9th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Because of the amount of work involved and time constraints, I have decided to NOT attach porch rafters to the main rafters. I'm just going to leave it as you see it now. BUT, I do still plan to have a porch but I'll be attaching a ledger board below the main roof line at a later date and that will serve as the place where the porch rafters will start.

Today, I ordered enough 1x8 cedar board to cover my rafter ends and be my eave facia board. As far as a soffit, couldn't I somehow attach a small ledger up there and use that to connect a soffit board to it and the 1x8 - even though the 1x8's are on a 45 degree?

I realize that I keep changing my plans about how I do a few things after y'all tell me so much information about how to do it - I really appreciate it.

Here's a rafter tail end cut plumb vs. angled question: Is there any such attachment thing or method where rafters that are not plumb can turn into plumb rafter tails? In other words a little piece of wood on a 45 degree angle that is attached to the end of the rafter. Or how about something like the attachments that StrongTie makes, some kind of metal bracket that attaches to the rafter ends and 45's out to a plumb bracket. Just a thought. I know that all that would probably cost more money than if the proper length rafters were used and then cut plumb...just musing some thoughts here.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on August 09, 2012, 02:01:43 PM
Al there is nothing wrong with setting your rafters for the porch on a ledger.  That is what I did with mine. 

In regards to the facscia board I honestly think that you will be more satisfied with it being plumb and 90 deg to your wall.  If you set it with the 45 deg angle there will be that 45 deg angle space above your porch roof.  Then again if you attach a nailer against the house just below your rafter then the soffit will not be 45 deg but something else because of the ledger thickness.  Trying to add pieces to the rafter tails will be more work than it is worth.  Not to mention that your sub-fascia and fascia will be held by these pieces rather than the rafter tail themself which will be more sturdy.  If and when you decide about gutters a plumb cut will work better as MtDon mentioned. You will have to be up there to attach the pieces and or brackets(difficult to nail into the fascia from the back side) you just as well be up there cutting the tails plumb and be done with it.

The only major work in making the fascia plumb is cutting the rafter tails.  Your nailer will be level as well as your soffit. Just an occassional block to nail the soffit to as you move from one end to the other.  2' spacing would even work.  I think I mentioned this before as far as how to cut them. I failed to mention that you will need to use the level on the first one to get that plumb line to set your bevel square with.

" I would mark both end of the house at the point where the top of the plumb cut will be.  Then using a chaulk box snap that line.  That will give you a mark where the top of the plumb cut will be.  Then using a sliding bevel square set to the position that will be plumb toward the bottom.  Then go through and you will just have to mark each rafter with the bevel square.  No trying to hold the level plumb and occassionally being off a little." 


The example of the components is in your previous post with a plumb cut fascia.

http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=10641.msg158772#msg158772

Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: mogie01 on August 09, 2012, 05:24:07 PM
If you add a ledger board under the roofline what pitch will that make your porch roof? 
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on August 09, 2012, 07:19:24 PM
Hey Mogie1,

My porch pitch would be around a 3:12
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on August 10, 2012, 04:39:26 PM
if your porch is full width you dont really need to.plumb cut because you wont need a gutter except on the porch.

if you plumb cut the ends you wilp also need to cut a few inches off the bottom horizontally because the 8" cedar you bought wont cover it.

personally i.like the look of open soffets and angled facia. its a very cabiny type look. however my last house was like that and with no gutters you get lots of erosion on the ground from the rain sheeting off the roof. this time around i will plumb cut the ends and have open soffits. note: open soffets need to be pressure washed every so often because spiders and wasps like to make their home in all the nooks and crannies.

if you alread put osb to the ends then you may want to close in the soffits anyways since osb isnt a great open soffet treatment.

just more food cor thought
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on August 10, 2012, 04:45:36 PM
actually how are you planning to cover the 8" end rafters with 8" cedar
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: rick91351 on August 10, 2012, 05:52:59 PM
I think it was Peg who I seen first coin the term cover those tails!  Never seen why   ???   Maybe I shall PM him if he does not see this.  I have been in question ever since I seen that.................

I do know it scared me enough that I covered them on my shop!!! 

rlr
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on August 11, 2012, 10:22:51 PM
Saturday Night - August 11th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Been pretty busy these past few days doing things other than the countryplan build. I guess
that happens to us all now and then.

You've all probably seen my 1991 Ford Festiva that I've used as my work truck in past post pics.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/10boardfestiva.JPG)

I've been a Festiva man for years but my little blue car has 336,000 miles on it and it's starting to use a quart
of oil about every 300 miles and it's getting a little slower going up the grades. I've put almost 150,000 miles
on it, hauled the concrete for my piers in it, hauled many 2x6x10 footers in it, and even 'almost' had a half
rick of wood in it. I'll always remember the look on the Lowes guys face when he looked around to see
where he should put those 8 bags of 80 pound Quickrete and I pointed to my little blue Festiva. I bought
it for $600 and it's never broken down and put me on the side of the road!

All that to say: My wife has been wanting me to get a much better car for awhile now so I went out and bought
a new 2013 Hyundai Accent with all the options. When my wife saw how cool those new Accents looked she
decided to trade in her 2009 Chevy Equinox for an Accent also but she got the one without all the options. So
we both got brand new, his and hers, 2013 Hyundai Accents!

So now I have a bigger car payment but not all that bad. I did have to come up with a little down payment
for the both of them so my countryplan may slow down for a few weeks - although I do have all the wood and
osb to frame up the gable ends so I have a week or so of work to do there.

So now my wife is happy cause shes got a countryplan build with a felt roof and a new car too! Oh ya, I'm happy
too!

UPDATE December 6th, 2017 Years Later: We became very unhappy with the 2 new car payments so we let them go back to the bank. (Greatest financial mistake I ever made)

By the way, those Accents have a 10 year 100,000 mile power train warranty and a 5 year/60,000 mile bumper to
bumper warranty and 5 year road side assistantce...they got it all and to top it off - they get 40mpg or more on
the hwy!

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120810_142441.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Tickhill on August 12, 2012, 06:48:46 AM
AJ, congrats on the new rides. I had a Festiva that I bought for $300 and I put a used carb on it and I was getting a high of 43 miles a gallon, no AC. It would not win any beauty contest but it was a solid little work car.
I wish I still had it, we just bought a new Ford Focus and I am getting 39 - 41 mpg if I work at it.
Love the build pictures,

Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on August 12, 2012, 07:23:16 AM
AL every once in awhile you just have to break down and upgrade.  I keep hanging onto what I got.  Hate payments. >:(.  You might want to swap for your wifes car since it is a basic model cause building supplies load better into something that is not so nice.   ;)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on August 12, 2012, 05:59:34 PM
or you can keep yours and just drive hers to lowes ;D
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on August 20, 2012, 04:43:09 PM
Monday - August 20th, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Finally got back to working on the house. Finished one side of loft gable end framing:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120820_142101.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120820_142137.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120820_142021.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: mogie01 on August 20, 2012, 05:14:44 PM
Looks great ajbremer  :)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: rick91351 on August 20, 2012, 05:23:10 PM
Al I was about to put an all points bulletin out on you.  Had no seen a post in several days!   ;)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on August 20, 2012, 08:15:37 PM
Thanks mogie! Hi Rick,

Ya, I haven't posted in about a week. I bought those new cars and had to travel to the dealer about 3 times. Then I had to do other work at home like fix vacuum cleaner, and work on wifes computer. We also visited family a few times.

So now I'm back working on the build. It shouldn't take me long to frame the gable ends and then add osb and house wrap to them.

The down payments on those two new cars plus the tag/tax fees has slowed me down a little. Sometimes I think maybe I should have waited to do the new car thing till after I did at least the roof but...oh well. At least we are driving reliable vehicles.

The guy who put my septic in is supposed to meet me tomorrow to run the main line from the toilet to the septic. I don't have no plumbing done at all but I wanted a flushing toilet before anything.

It would be nice if I can be in there and at least slightly insulated by Christmas!

thanks for watching...

al
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on August 21, 2012, 06:06:44 PM
Tuesday - August 21st, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Just met the septic man who put in my tank. He also puts in the drain system under the build. He
came out and looked at my place and I told him where I wanted the toilet to be, the bathroom sink,
the shower, the kitchen sink, and the washing machine drain to be. He said once I had all of them
stubbed out and under the floor, he would run them all to the main line and run it to the septic
for $300 and he said it would take him less than half a day.

That sure sounds like a good deal to me. Of course I've never done any plumbing before and it seems
like it would be pretty easy to stub out drains from sinks, showers, and the toilet but the venting is the
part that I don't totally understand yet. I'll have to get some plumbing books. I want to try and vent my
whole system without going through the metal roof. I remember seeing a build or two here where the
vent pipe seemed to pop out under the eave...or something like that.

It would be nice to have a flushing toilet and a shower right off the bat.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on August 22, 2012, 06:14:43 PM
Wednesday - August 22nd, 2012 Mid-Oklahoma

Got half a side done of the west gable loft framing:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120822_135403.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: UK4X4 on September 08, 2012, 08:20:31 AM
OK Al you've had almost two weeks without a post. its time for an update !
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: nathan.principe on September 09, 2012, 11:22:22 PM
I agree, its been unusually long in between posts for Al, I dont post much any more but I still keep tabs  ;) Hope everything's well for you Al
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on September 10, 2012, 08:31:44 PM
Monday - September 10th, 2012

Ok guys, I'm still here. Sorry for being away so long.

Instead of going metal like I had planned, I decided to go with shingles. Mainly because of finances
and also because a friend of mine at work had a few squares he sold me. I'm using Tamko Heritage
30 AR Shingles, Antique Slate shown here:

(4 pics coming soon)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/antiqueslate.jpg)

And here is how far I got today:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120910_125329.jpg)

Look at the above picture closely and you'll notice how the #30 felt is getting old and beat up now. It's held on
even though it has been windy a few days but I really need to get those shingles on because that felt is getting
old, wrinkely, and weak.

Working from that platform that I made makes it really easy to get up there and put shingles on
the 12:12 pitch roof. My plan is to build a wide ladder using 2x4's for runners and 2x6's for wrungs.
I'll then set that on the roof and build a stop at the bottom where the ladder will rest against. That
way I can climb up the wrungs, work from either side, and then slide it over now and then. I'll post a
picture as soon as I can. When I'm done with the shingles on this side I'll tear down the platform and
put it up on the other side.

I took the weekend off and made a small deck so that we don't have to climb the ladder all the time. People
would come over and some people have a hard time with ladders so I decided to make a little deck. It's 5' x 10' but
I can add onto it lengthwise and also add on another 5 feet out to make it a 10' porch later. I'll need to also put a
roof over it. I also plan to have a similar porch in the back.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120910_083649.jpg)

And lastly, the ladder to the loft. We bought this ladder at a yard sale for like 10 or 15 bucks. I was using it for a long
time just to get in the house. I put it up to the loft and made some rails. It's not code but it's cute!

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120910_094101.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on September 10, 2012, 10:16:15 PM
Shingles look nice; nothing wrong with them, IMO.  Sometimes you can get a discount on insurance with metal though. And some locations may make more sense for metal. (our forest, for example).
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: rick91351 on September 10, 2012, 10:31:01 PM
My choice is metal.  However almost all contractors I know and roofers call for shingles.  Especially roofs where there are valleys.  I do know that most people around here that use metal are not as impressed as they thought they would be.  I guess I still have a metal mental block...... 
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: pmichelsen on September 11, 2012, 09:26:54 AM
I agree, nothing wrong with shingles at all and that is what I will be using on my build.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: UK4X4 on September 11, 2012, 05:27:16 PM
My contractor is recomending shingles too.........after spending months shingling after hurricane Andrew in dade county - back in my back packing days- I'd rather not use them.

But then I also have a 90# snow load to consider and I like the slidey offy of steel.

But they are waterproof and so function as desired- I'd do down from the top though so that you don't have to walk on them
the coating can rub off and leave just tar paper.

Can't see the nailing are you using those tack like nails with the large heads ? or maybe thats old fashioned now ! as it was a while ago that i was roof monkey !
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on September 11, 2012, 06:14:44 PM
Quote from: UK4X4 on September 11, 2012, 05:27:16 PM
.....- I'd do down from the top though so that you don't have to walk on them
the coating can rub off and leave just tar paper......


How do you make that work?  ???  I've always seen shingles done from the bottom strip up and seen them last fine for 20+ years even here in the sunny SW and that wasn't even with the best grade of shingles.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on September 11, 2012, 06:16:48 PM
Tuesday - September 11th, 2012 MidOklahoma

Built my roof ladder and ladder stop assembly today (at least that's what I call it).

I used 2x4 rails and 2x6's for the wrungs. I attached 21" long 2x4's to my rafter tails
and then cut osb and screwed it into the 2x4's. Then I laid a long 2x8 on top of them
and then screwed it into the edge of the little osb pieces. That creates the ladder stop.

The ladder moves pretty easily across the roof and doesn't tear up the felt...if I'm careful.

Now I can easily climb all the way up to the peek and also work from the sides.

Here's pics:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120911_125127.jpg)
(3 more pics coming soon)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120911_124913.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120911_124929.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120911_124941.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: UK4X4 on September 11, 2012, 06:33:22 PM
"How do you make that work?"

good question ! I mostly did flashing-hurricane ties and roof repairs-and straightening shingles after the fact - so i was always lifting and nailing underneath the upper ones 

- see I'm older than i think ! must be senility comming on early a bit like my inherited arthritis too- sent home from the field today with a pumpkin knee
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on September 12, 2012, 09:24:28 PM
Wednesday - September 12th, 2012 MidOklahoma

I'm getting there:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120912_135920.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: mogie01 on September 13, 2012, 02:02:59 PM
aj, it's really starting to look like a house now, nice work!!  I remember how nice it was to get the roof done and it looks like you will get it done in no time.  I like the shingles :)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: new land owner on September 13, 2012, 03:58:42 PM
It seems most people use tin on their camps.  I like the use of shingles and that is what I used on my camp. Your project is looking good.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on September 13, 2012, 06:06:37 PM
Thursday - September 13th, 2012 MidOklahoma

Did a little more shingling, till I ran out of bundles. Time to buy some more.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120913_123845.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on September 16, 2012, 06:44:47 AM
Sunday Morning - September 16th, 2012

The 1st picture below was taken almost one year ago today. Remember, this is strictly a one
person build. Built debt free - no loans, payday to payday.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/860_steelunderhouse.jpg)

One year later, today (see picture below). I've used about 2 squares of Tamko Heritage antique slate
shingles (6 bundles) so far on the 1st side and a couple of bundles of antique slate 3 tab shingles for
the edging.

Notice my new little ladder next to the big 'special shingling ladder' that I built on the roof. It's a
nice 6' wooden ladder I bought at a yard sale yesterday for $15.00. It works great for shingling
on the roof using that ladder-stop board.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120915_191652.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on September 16, 2012, 08:16:27 PM
Sunday - September 16th, 2012 MidOklahoma

Here's a picture of the front porch/deck I built last weekend. We put lattice on the front and
it gives it a private look. I also put on the front door this weekend. Bought the all wooden door
for $15.00 from a neighbor. It needs touch up and one pane is cracked but it'll look real good by
the time we are done with it.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120916_145602.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: waterbug on September 17, 2012, 02:49:49 PM
Looks good Al - you have accomplished a lot in the last year, especially considering that you have been paying as you go.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on September 17, 2012, 06:07:37 PM
Monday - September 17th, 2012 MidOklahoma

Thanks for the comment waterbug.

Today I was able to get 2 bundles of shingles up there, that's it. I think I'm getting more than
half way with this first side.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120917_141027.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: astidham on September 17, 2012, 10:31:50 PM
Quote from: ajbremer on September 17, 2012, 06:07:37 PM
Monday - September 17th, 2012 MidOklahoma

Thanks for the comment waterbug.

Today I was able to get 2 bundles of shingles up there, that's it. I think I'm getting more than
half way with this first side.

Looking Good!!!
by the time you finish, when you dont need it, you will be 20 times faster than you are now...lol
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on September 17, 2012, 11:34:56 PM
Thanks astidham, I know what you mean.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on September 23, 2012, 08:22:59 PM
Sunday - September 23rd, 2012

Put 3 bundles of shingles on the North side today. Only a few more to go and then onto the other side.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120923_174621_zps0e507dc1.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: new land owner on September 25, 2012, 06:46:38 AM
Al

    Have you thought of roof penitrations?  Plumbing vent, Wood stove?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on September 25, 2012, 08:03:09 PM
Thanks for the comment New Land Owner.

Yes, I'll at least be going through the roof with a wood stove, that's for sure. As far as the toilet/sink
vent - not sure about that. I've heard of some people going up the wall with it and then out the eave,
that sounds good to me if I can find a way to do it.

Today I put in my first big window. I'll have a picture of it tomorrow.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: new land owner on September 25, 2012, 08:33:12 PM
The only reason I asked is that I just finished my roof and installed both the plumbing vent and the chimney for the wood stove.  My thought was that it was easier to do when I was in the middle of shingling.  I have both completed and hope not to be on the roof for a long time.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on September 25, 2012, 08:35:15 PM
I was writing this as nlo was posting...   

The question about the penetration may have been asked because it is easier to do the flashings before all the shingling is done. The typical metal boot flashing has the lower edge over the shingles and the upper edge covered by shingles. Layers so all the water is directed to the surface. Not impossible to do later but more difficult.  As for penetrations for the plumbing vents there are hundreds of thousands of roofs, if not millions, done that way and when done properly they don't leak and the plumbing vents wonderfully.

Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on September 26, 2012, 10:34:18 PM
Wednesday - September 26th, 2012

A couple days ago I put my first window ever in. It's just sticking in there now with some shims and
I also put some 1x6 cedar on the outside. It's definitely not a great job but a hole is covered up and
no rain can get in their. It'll look better when I trim it up.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120926_102512.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120926_102454.jpg)

And here's how far I'm on my shingles on the North side. I probably will only need 2 more bundles
and then I'll tear down all of my platform and put it up on the other side so I can start shingling there.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120926_102344.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on September 27, 2012, 06:08:54 PM
Thursday - September 27th, 2012

Added a couple more small windows to the front side. I like the looks of the cedar 1x6's that
I used. It's going to be really cool to see what the log siding will look like around these
windows.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120927_134805.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120927_134745.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on September 27, 2012, 06:39:05 PM
What thickness is the "log" siding? Will the cedar boards / window trim be thicker than the siding? 
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on September 27, 2012, 10:31:02 PM
Hi Don,

The log siding is made from a 2x8 and it's probably just under 1-1/2" at its highest radius. The cedar boards that
I've been using are around 7/8" or so. I need to think about how water falls and make sure it goes over things instead
of going under, right? I could bevel or chamfer the edges of which ever one needs it.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on September 28, 2012, 12:21:23 AM
Well, I asked because the most common way window trim and siding is done is to have the trim thicker than the thickest part of the siding.  Not the best picture to illustrate the point, but the trim is slightly thicker than the thickest part of the log/siding. The same thing is done with lap siding most often.

(http://www.log-siding.com/vnotchwhewn.jpg)

The trim is installed first like you've started and the siding added later. Leave a slight gap for expansion and caulk before the paint/stain/whatever. To a large degree it's a visual thing; just looks nicer. But having the trim thicker than the siding also hides the end grain of the siding and if caulked can protect it better. If staining or leaving natural I'm not sure what type of caulk would be suitable... I'm an exterior "paint everything" sort of guy.  ;D

Another way is to bring the siding material right to the windows/doors and then use thin trim over the siding around the window/door. I like the looks of the thick trim with the siding added later. 

With 1 1/2" thick lock profile siding I'd probably use 1 1/2" thick trim or slightly thicker rough sawn. Maybe space the 1x out from the surface with another layer of something underneath the 1x.

While we're on the subject of trim, have you thought about where on the exterior you will want electrical outlets, light fixtures, hose bibs and the like? The best way to mount things like that is to use blocks as illustrated in the picture below...

(http://www.log-siding.com/fixtj.jpg)

The blocks are cut from trim. They make it easier to mount lights etc to the flat surface instead of the curved surface. The blocks are installed before the siding. It really does make the job look better and finish up better. Of course that is my opinion. 
Just more stuff to think about, and maybe end up with a better looking end result.

:)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on September 28, 2012, 05:37:13 PM
Friday - September 28th, 2012

Thanks for sharing that Don, that's excellent information. Putting a block in like that looks like it would
be pretty intricate.

Put another window and trim in on the front side (south side) and also did some more shingles. One more
trip up on the roof on the south side and it'll be done!

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120928_140838.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120928_140748.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on September 28, 2012, 05:54:43 PM
It's not as hard as it looks...

Just takes some good measuring.  :)


Good to see the roof coming along.


I think I'd try to make the trim bottom and top, etc all fit in alignment. As it sits with that upper window in the top image that will require some fitting of the logs to get a nice fit. Also it's a bit more usual to carry the verticals down and fit the bottom trim in between the verticals. makes for a better rain path.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on October 01, 2012, 05:47:19 AM
October 1st, 2012 MidOklahoma

I put the larger window in on the front and trimmed it with cedar board. I'm also going to put that cedar trim around the door too.

Today I plan to finish the shingles on the north side and begin to disassemble my platform and put it up on the south side so
that I can shingle there.

It's really starting to look like a house now. The felt tore off in the wind up there but I'll replace it when I'm up there
putting the shingles on.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120930_190042.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: duncanshannon on October 01, 2012, 10:09:03 AM
Al - you are the man!  Nice work and fantastic progress given your scenario (learning a ton, single person build, debt free).  And way to keep up with it for over a year now!  Sounds like a ton of fun.   c*

How are you preparing the window openings? Any window flashing tape etc?

Duncan
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on October 01, 2012, 05:48:29 PM
Thanks duncanshannon, I'm trying to have as much fun as possible (sometimes that's hard to do).

I finally finished all the shingling on the north side and I also dissassembled all of the platform that
I made. Now I have to build it all again on the other side so that I can have a platform to stand
on and make things simple.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20121001_141517.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: waterbug on October 01, 2012, 06:10:37 PM
Congratulations Al - it looks great. I bet it feels good to get that side done.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on October 01, 2012, 07:58:34 PM
Thanks waterbug,

Yes, it sure does feel good to get that side done but now I've got to tackle the other side. Making
that decking/platform just to be able to safely shingle is a chore but it really makes it simple.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on October 04, 2012, 08:16:47 AM
10/04/2012 MidOklahoma

Got a couple more windows in and will be putting more in today. Still have to make the platform so
that I can get up there on the roof and do the shingling but I found it more important to enclose
the house for the winter. Still have to tackle the plumbing and electric also.

Satellite was too big and clunky on the house, cost way too much, and was way to slow so I converted
it to a bird feeder. I hope the birds 'get the signal' (heavy pun intended)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/523353_10151437428413976_1913725452_n.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on October 05, 2012, 06:13:05 PM
10/05/2012 MidOklahoma

Hung my very first door today, jam and all. I also put in those windows. The big picture
window is on order at HomeDepot and it cost me $250 - it'll be a single hung, double pane,
gas filled, 51-3/4" x 64-1/2" custom window.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20121005_103118.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on October 05, 2012, 06:46:51 PM
i have been gone. are you done yet? :o
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on October 05, 2012, 08:30:02 PM
Quote from: duncanshannon on October 01, 2012, 10:09:03 AM
How are you preparing the window openings? Any window flashing tape etc?


Yes, inquiring minds like to know the details...
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on October 06, 2012, 06:46:33 AM
10/06/2012 MidOklahoma

I did skimp on the windows and didn't use the flashing tape and yes I know I'll be sorry for that but I'll have to deal with
it for now. I guess caulking doesn't take the place of good flashing?

I also have seen where if you have your house wrap on for a long time it is wise to put another layer of it on just before
you put your siding on. I'm thinking of putting a layer of #15 felt on it just before I attach the log siding.

I'm going to have a porch roof on each side over those windows as soon as possible but for now I have to enclose the place
and finish up so I can get in there and live. (Ya, I still gotta do the plumbing and electric too.)

I'm trying to figure out about how much it'll cost me to insulate the place. I was looking at some insulation over there
at Lowe's yesterday and a roll of R-33 was around $79. It was 2' wide and 10 something feet long and there were 11 pieces
and it said it covered 88 square feet... I think.

My 2 foot wide bays up there in the roof are 16' long. Are there rolls of insulation that long or do I go with sections?

Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on October 06, 2012, 08:25:09 AM
Al it is never too late.  I think I would reconsider the Grace or equivalent window flashing tape.  You have a lot invested and I would hate to see a portion of my build fail.  I would just take off the trim on the outside and tape the windows.  Not a big process just gently remove and re-attach.  Yes you will have a few penetrations from the previous attachment but these can be sealed with chaulking but IMO well worth the effort. Remember it is not only for water penetration but will also keep drafts from penetrating as well.  Just install it so that the moisture will continue down and off and away from the window opening. Meaning bottom first, side over that and finally top.

Also I am not sure about double layering the house wrap.  You will be creating a space for moisture to stay.  House wrap designed to allow moisture out but then you will be trapping it behind a second layer especially #15 felt which does not breath like house wrap does.

Yes you can get rolled insulation instead of batts.  Just get the sealent tape where the batts are joined.  Which is the easiest to use? 
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on October 08, 2012, 06:37:32 AM
10/08/2012 MidOklahoma

Thank you for the tip Redoverfarm.

Right now I'm concentrating on getting my roof shingled and done before it gets too cold to put shingles up. This morning it's just about freezing temperature out there. It's supposed to get back up into the 80's this week and around 50+ at night but we don't have long before the cold comes and stays.

Well, over the weekend I put up my platform on the south side so that I can shingle the roof in safety. It took me a couple of days but it makes the job much easier. I used scrap lumber and a lot of the same lumber is from the platform of the other side and I wasn't too concerned about how it looked but was concerned with its strength to hold weight up there.

Here's the pic of the new platform on the south side completed. The only thing I have left to do is to attach what I call ladder stop boards so that I can slide my roof ladders back and forth and use them to walk up and down the roof.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20121007_183754.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: metolent on October 08, 2012, 03:16:25 PM
Get some quotes to have insulation installed.  I price shopped around everywhere for materials planning to do it myself ... and then got quotes from at least 3 insulation companies.  With the exception of 1 guy, all of the installed quotes were significantly lower (materials + labor + tax) than I could buy just the materials for.  It simply doesn't pay to buy insulation and install yourself....  Insulation contractors evidently get *unbelievably great* prices buying in bulk.    ;)

Btw, the shingles look great!

matt
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on October 08, 2012, 04:03:12 PM
10/08/2012 MidOklahoma

Thank you Metolent, that's great information that I'll have to investigate.

Started to shingle the south side today:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20121008_144226.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on October 09, 2012, 06:33:34 PM
10-09-2012 MidOklahoma

A few more shingles up there...

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20121009_140640.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: astidham on October 10, 2012, 10:30:27 PM
Roof is looking good Al.
since I have the same as cabin..
my insulation was installed by a large tulsa company and was $830.00
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on October 10, 2012, 11:48:30 PM
Great hearing from you again astidham!

I think I'll be doing my insulation using the 'as I go' and 'as I can afford' method. Things
are getting tighter now financially - buying cars didn't help the house building much. Some
day, we'll have to check each others build out.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on October 11, 2012, 01:24:55 AM
10/11/2012 MidOklahoma

I've used this wood stove in other places where I've lived but I'm trying to figure out the right
combination of piping for the country plan place. I would like my pipe to go out the wall above
the window and then up. So I'll be using 2 90's to do that job. I have triple wall pipe left from
the place where I used to live but I'm thinking that I won't need it now, besides, it's very heavy!

That sleeve that goes in the wall for the pipe to pass through and out, can the pipe that passes
through that be just regular pipe and not triple walled?

How far away from my eve should I have the pipe as it goes up? Here's a pic of my stove situation:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20121010_121843.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on October 11, 2012, 09:16:41 AM
Sometimes going out the wall results in a chimney that does not draw as well as a chimney that goes straight up.

You absolutely need to use triple wall or mineral wool insulated pipe where the pipe passes through the wall, ceiling or roof. Insulated / triple wall also must be used all the way up to the chimney cap. From the stove to the insulated pipe you use single or double wall black steel pipe. I used a length of telescoping single wall pipe on mine up to the section of insulated pipe that penetrates the ceiling.

How far from the eve. Insulated pipe has a clearance from combustible rating of a inch IIRC. So an inch. More if you want to CYA in case you decide to add rain gutters some day.

If the pipe exits through the wall I think you should install a 90 degree cleanout on the exterior. That is made to support the weight of the vertical rise and make it easier to clean the crud out.

And there is something about a pipe passing a window that bothers me, if I understand what you said correctly. That is the hottest section of pipe in the entire run. It just bothers me... hot hot pipe and cold glass, vinyl frame, doesn't seem like a good mix to me.

Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on October 11, 2012, 11:10:16 AM
Thanks for the reply Don.

I plan to go through the wall above the window and not through the window itself.

I kind of hate making a hole in the roof. It seems so much easier to repair a hole in the wall
then a hole in the roof. (especially on the 12:12 pitch)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Alan Gage on October 11, 2012, 11:25:13 AM
I'd go through the roof. It's not hard. Probably easier, cheaper, and better draft.

Alan
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on October 11, 2012, 12:01:19 PM
Quote from: ajbremer on October 11, 2012, 11:10:16 AM

I plan to go through the wall above the window and not through the window itself.


Yes, Al I figured that. I simply have reservations about having a hot metal pipe close to cold glass and metable vinyl. The first couple of feet of my black pipe reaches 300+ F when there is a good fire going in my stove. That radiates a lot of heat. Maybe its my cautious nature; plus I've never seen a chimney run past a window. Maybe just the aesthetics of it, but I don't know....


The hole through the roof is no big deal. Even my cautious nature does not have a problem with it. You locate the spot from inside using a plumb bob, drill a pilot hole and then cut the hole with clearance for the pipe. Install the metal flashing boot and then the pipe and you're off to the races! Once it's done it's done. I've never had a chimney flashing leak; our one and only roof leak came from blown off shingles. It is easier to do the flashing if the shingles are not yet installed, but I've done new chimney holes through old shingles before, with not too much trouble and no leaks.

The straight run chimney does draw much more reliably than one with two 90 degree bends. They don't even make 90 degree bends for insulated pipe, just the black or by using 90 degree cleanouts. FWIW, 30 degree bends are the recommended maximum for insulated pipe (for wood burning chimneys).
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on October 11, 2012, 12:52:06 PM
Quote from: Alan Gage on October 11, 2012, 11:25:13 AM
I'd go through the roof. It's not hard. Probably easier, cheaper, and better draft.

Alan

Not to mention the periodic cleaning that is needed.  No way to brush/clean the 90 deg's other than diisassembling them. :(
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: southbalto on October 11, 2012, 05:48:38 PM
Hey Al-  I've been following your build for well.....from the beginning.

You really should rethink the venting plan for the stove.  Adding two 90 degree turns is going to restrict draft and, as mentioned, make cleaning a pain.  You would be much better off going straight up through the roof.  The interior stove pipe comes in two varieties, single and double wall.  Single must be a min of 18" from combustibles, 6" for double I believe.  At the ceiling you can use a specialty box that joins the stove pipe to Class A HT pipe which typically can be as close as 2" to combustibles.

As for proximity of the pipe and the roof.  I've always heard that the piping should extend 2' above anything within 10' of it.

Good luck!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: southbalto on October 11, 2012, 05:57:27 PM
I took another look at the front of your place and I think you're going to have a hard time venting through the side. As MtnDon said, Exterior Pipe does not come in 90 degree elbows.  There are "T" units available but they are typically used right up against the house and you would need to blow through your soffit .

The other consideration is cost.  The "t" unit price will probably run you about the same money the cathedral ceiling/junction box will.  The cost benefit will be that you can use inexpensive black stove pipe for the majority of the vertical run.  Once you get above the roof it will be maybe a couple 4' pipe sections and a few stabilizers. 

To go through the side you'll need a through the wall kit, horizontal class a section to the "T".  You'll then have to decide whether to go straight up through the soffit or use 30 degree elbows to maybe work around it.  Then go up again to get you the 10/2 clearance and stabilize.

>
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on October 11, 2012, 06:13:45 PM
Ok, I'm glad ya'll gave me good advice on going through the roof instead of the wall.

I have decided to go just straight up through the roof. You can see all those triple wall sections
that I own by looking at that picture above. Should I use them as I go through the box at the
top of the cathedral ceiling and beyond? That triple walled stuff is super heavy!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on October 11, 2012, 08:05:28 PM
I'm not sure how the weight of your chimney compares to the Selkirk SuperVent I use. However, the SuperVent Cathedral ceiling support and support 30 feet of their pipe; that's 30 feet of insulated pipe total, some above and some below the mount. Check out the specs on your brand.  As was mentioned single wall black pipe needs 18 inches minimum clearance from combustibles. That means you need some insulated pipe hanging below the ceiling mount; enough length to keep the black pipe far enough away from any combustibles. Draw a scale picture and measure drop to the sloped surfaces. Go from there.

When you are installing a straight up run a section of telescoping black pipe is very handy from the stove up. It makes installation and maintenance easier than all rigid, non telescoping pipe. The telescoping pipe is also a welded seam design, completely smooth and looks better. Not cheap as snap seam black pipe but it is worth it IMO.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: southbalto on October 11, 2012, 08:55:09 PM
I'm not sure if there is a maximum length of  double wall pipe that you can use on the interior.  There may very well be a restriction on the amount of stove pipe you can use before the transfer to class a.

here is a picture of the ceiling transfer box i mentioned earlier:
(http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-95622685483394_2228_31430077)



Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on October 11, 2012, 10:19:01 PM
Hey thanks a lot southbalto.

I'll have to look up a picture of something like that that I can use for my 12:12 pitch cathedral ceiling.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on October 11, 2012, 10:27:29 PM
Quote from: ajbremer on October 11, 2012, 10:19:01 PM
Hey thanks a lot southbalto.

I'll have to look up a picture of something like that that I can use for my 12:12 pitch cathedral ceiling.

Al here is a site which pretty well has everything dealing with stove pipes.  Maybe give you some idea what is out there and the application of each. 

http://www.ventingpipe.com/
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on October 11, 2012, 10:50:24 PM
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_UroNSkE-1kw/TOky6YOkCGI/AAAAAAAAAIQ/0aRslX5iPew/s800/_DSC0005.jpg)
That's from Dug's southern NM project
Go here and scroll down a little (http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=8038.msg125896#msg125896)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: astidham on October 11, 2012, 11:11:45 PM
Quote from: ajbremer on October 10, 2012, 11:48:30 PM
Great hearing from you again astidham!

I think I'll be doing my insulation using the 'as I go' and 'as I can afford' method. Things
are getting tighter now financially - buying cars didn't help the house building much. Some
day, we'll have to check each others build out.
absolutely!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on October 11, 2012, 11:18:19 PM
That's great guys, thank you so much! Now I just have to figure out the best place to go and get one
and how much it'll cost.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Alan Gage on October 12, 2012, 10:20:01 AM
Quote from: southbalto on October 11, 2012, 05:48:38 PM
Single must be a min of 18" from combustibles, 6" for double I believe. 

Al - Check those clearances in the manual supplied with your stove. I believe the minimum clearances usually referred to are for non-EPA stoves where there's been no testing. All the current stove manufacturers test their stoves for clearances for both the stove and pipe. Your stoves manual should not only tell you the clearances for the stove but the pipes as well.

Alan
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: southbalto on October 12, 2012, 03:25:13 PM
Al - Check those clearances in the manual supplied with your stove. I believe the minimum clearances usually referred to are for non-EPA stoves where there's been no testing. All the current stove manufacturers test their stoves for clearances for both the stove and pipe. Your stoves manual should not only tell you the clearances for the stove but the pipes as well.

Alan


Alan-  The measurements I mentioned are for the stove pipe and shouldn't vary depending on the type of stove.  It's 18/6 depending on single/double wall construction.

As for the stove....If it doesn't have a UL label, the default I believe is 36". That is, no part of the stove can be within 3 feet. 
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: southbalto on October 12, 2012, 03:26:39 PM
http://www.woodstove-outlet.com/stovepipecomparison.htm
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on October 12, 2012, 03:50:06 PM
Al if you will go to the type of pipe you are looking for and search the site that I provided they have the length of pipe (Maximum) for maximum effency as well as the cut off length.  Problem with these sites is that most are manufacturer verbage rather than actual independent lab test. 
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Alan Gage on October 12, 2012, 07:40:51 PM
Quote from: southbalto on October 12, 2012, 03:25:13 PM


Alan-  The measurements I mentioned are for the stove pipe and shouldn't vary depending on the type of stove.  It's 18/6 depending on single/double wall construction.


My stoves (Englander) list the "chimney connector to wall" distance along with "stove to wall".

In the case of my Englander 17-VL the chimney connector at the top of the stove can be within 12" of the rear wall when using single wall pipe. I've heard people argue about this before on Hearth.com and the answer seems to be that if the stove manufacturer tests it and publishes recommended minimum clearances for the pipe at the chimney connector then they trump the standard 18/6 rule.

Also, for the same stove, the clearance for chimney connector to wall for double wall pipe is rated at 10". The limiting factor here being that if the chimney connector was closer than 10" to the wall the back of the stove would be closer than the minimum of 8". There's no reason, in this scenario, that you couldn't bring the double wall pipe within 6" of combustibles after it's left the stove.

Alan
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on October 13, 2012, 07:06:46 PM
10/13/20112 Saturday MidOklahoma

Installed this window today. I got 2 of these 53" x 65" windows for free by posting a note up at
the bulletin board where I work that said, "Wanted: 3 x 5 Windows - See Al". Someone I know
came by and said that they saw the note and that they have a couple window that were taken
out of their house about  6 months ago but she had no idea of what size they were. She also
said that they were brand new when she bought the house and she's opened them up maybe
once. She got new windows, siding, shingles, etc. so that is how I came about getting these
winows.

These windows are about 18" wider and a few inches smaller than my original large openings
so I had to reframe my opening and put in another header under the original header.

I know ya'll are wonder'in if I did it correctly and how I did it. Well, the new header is directly under the
old one. Sawed the left jack stud below the original header just enough to get the new header under it,
that supports the left end of the new triple 2x10 header. Attached a new jack stud under the right side
of the new header and supported it by way of a front facing 2x4 that I ended up cutting to a width
of 2-3/4" and it attaches to an original stud to the right.

For temporary 'get a good look at things' sake, I attached wooden strips flush with the outside osb
and against the inner jack studs to act as a stop. Then I trapped the window in there by way of a
few temporary strips.

Since these two windows are replacement windows, I'm going to put 2x4 cedar trim against the
outside osb which will protrude into the window opening and act as stops. I'll put the window in
against that and then sandwich it with other strips on the inside.

This new window size is also smaller on the height so I had to add almost 6" of height to the original
sill.

Here's a look from the inside:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20121013_142344.jpg)

From the outside:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20121013_142433.jpg)

Here's the 2 windows before I picked them up:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20121010_150347.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: mountainlady1956 on October 13, 2012, 11:43:29 PM
I love FREE! Might have been some extra work but the windows look good ::) Cathy
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on October 22, 2012, 07:37:00 PM
10/22/2012 Monday MidOklahoma

I just acquired an Ashley Sahara wood stove. It's used, a little dirty, and it's not the one in this
picture but it's the same make and model. Is this a good stove? Probably better than the box
stove that we were going to use...right?

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/ashley-sahara.jpg)

Also installed my toilet and all the pvc main drain under the house. Now I have a celebration video
of the event:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IfTH0Y3HWM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IfTH0Y3HWM)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on October 23, 2012, 06:06:29 PM
10/23/2012 Tuesday MidOklahoma

I've got running water/kitchen sink/ and shower in bathroom now! I just have to plumb the
vanity in the bathroom yet:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20121023_112926.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on October 28, 2012, 10:02:39 AM
Sunday Morning October 28th, 2012

Spent most of yesterday getting an Ashley Sahara Wood Stove set up in my country plan.

I framed a cathedral ceiling support box in, put together a bunch of 2' section of stove pipe and
finally, just before midnight, we had a nice fire going.

This stove was given to me free by a co-worker who has had it on their front porch for 5+ years. They
said the blower motor wasn't working and the back draft plate wouldn't open anymore. They replaced it
with a pellet stove and said all I had to do was to pick it up.

It was packed full of old ash, the blower assembly at the bottom of the stove was full of ash and junk also.
The back damper flap has so much junk around it that it would't budge until I cleaned and vacuumed out
the ash.

We cleaned it up and got everything working. Now, this morning, it's 29 outside and warm in here even though
we have no insulation and inside walls yet. It's heating our 'osb box' really nice!

I had to use 6 sections of 2' pipe including 1 section within the triple wall that goes through the support
box. Does anyone know if they sell black stove pipe in 10' sections? I sure would like to use less sections. Speaking
of stove pipe sections, it's tough trying to assemble stove pipe, isn't there an easy method for trying to press
that one flap into the other!

One last note about all this, the blower of the stove. Wow, that blower really makes the heat come out.

Here's our picture:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20121028_005800.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on October 28, 2012, 04:33:36 PM
black stove pipe:  The nicest black pipe is welded pipe, not the snap lock type. It does come in longer lengths and also in telescoping, adjustable length, sections. IMO, it makes for a more attrcative pipe than any snap lock. It also can be had in heavier gauge steel. Costs more too, but that's expected.

Example of type (http://www.northlineexpress.com/chimney/chimney-pipe-stove-pipe/stove-pipe/6-inch-black-stove-pipe/6-inch-heatfab-stove-pipe.html?gclid=CNib_erTpLMCFQtxQgodFk8AYw)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on October 30, 2012, 06:13:10 PM
10/30/2012 MidOklahoma

Thanks MountianDon, great information about the stove pipe. All of my 2' sections look ugly to me. I hope I
can find a place nearby where I can drive to in order to get some - as opposed to online.

Today I finally finished putting in all of my windows, my countryplan has 16 of them.

I spent a lot of time trying to repair my Ashley Sahara Wood Stove Blower. I removed it, cleaned it all up,
bench tested it out, WD-40'd it, and it purred like a kitten. BUT, when I put it back in, it didn't seem to work
as good as it did on the bench. Sometimes it'll come on and just hum and I'll give the cages a little manual
push and it'll start. After that it may stay going for a little while but then it'll slow down to a stopped hum.
The electric motor part of the blower looks like a one piece deal. I'm not sure if
I should try to get into it. I wonder if I can simply find a small motor and just attach it to the original
shaft on the end? Has anyone dived into that kind of repair?

Now it's time to finish the bathroom vanity and kitchen sink facets. Then finish the shingles, and then
onto the siding.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on November 04, 2012, 08:24:23 AM
that is usually what happens when the brushes and armature wear down on the motor. you can spin it a few times to get it running but before long it just stops.

if there is a part number on the motor plug it into google and see what you come up with. i but its a pretty standard motor you can get
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on November 05, 2012, 09:30:07 PM
11-05-2012 MidOklahoma

Thanks CjAl, I'll look into my blower motor part for my woodstove and see if I can replace it.

I've been doing more shingling lately. Put a facet on the kitchen sink and ran the pex hot and cold water lines to it.

Oh ya, by the way, we sold our RV and we are officially living in our countryplan house now. Yes, we are living in an
OSB box but we are making it work, staying warm (most of the time), and have 'most' of the comforts of home.

It'll be exciting to finish the shingles. Then I'll be able to remove the platform that I made and it'll start to look
like a real house, especially after we put the log siding on it!

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20121105_142710.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on November 19, 2012, 10:03:29 PM
what, you get a roof on and you think you can stop posting?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on November 20, 2012, 07:06:16 PM
11/20/2012

I know man...sorry. I've got to step up my posting again with all the little things I've been up to.

Today I almost finished shingling. I meant to take a pic before I took off to work but I got in a hurry.
I'm excited about taking down that platform that I made and starting to put on the siding. BUT, I have
to do my stairs. It's hard for us to find a good spot to put in our stairs since we've already put in our stove
pipe. It got cold and we set up the stove - we probably should have put the stove in around the 'already' made
stairs but we did it backwards I guess.

I'll post some pics of our situation with the placement of our stairs.

Thanks for your interest...

al
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on November 21, 2012, 07:01:48 PM
11-21-2012 MidOklahoma

Shingles all done. I started to tear down the platform that I made but didn't get it all done yet.

Next in line is electric and the stairs. All ya'll please send me pics and links of stairs if ya come across them. Pics and links of stairs within the 20x30 countryplan with loft. I've been browsing countryplans for different people who have made stairs for their 20x30 with loft but there's so many and it takes a long time. I'll keep plugging away.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20121121_141820.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ellbaker on November 21, 2012, 07:19:26 PM
Quote from: ajbremer on November 21, 2012, 07:01:48 PM
11-21-2012 MidOklahoma

I've been browsing countryplans for different people who have made stairs for their 20x30 with loft but there's so many and it takes a long time. I'll keep plugging away.


I just built a set of Jefferson or alternating tread stairs for our loft.  I had limited floor space because I have a set of full stairs going down to the basement.  My next job is to build the railing.  They are easy to climb and come down facing forward like regular stairs.  I was apprehensive at first, but I would do it again in a heart beat.  They add additional charm to my cabin.

(https://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z392/Ericbaker0467/IMG_20121027_102914.jpg)

Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: archimedes on November 22, 2012, 09:34:28 AM
Nice looking stairs.   d*

What's the total rise and run?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on November 26, 2012, 09:01:59 PM
11/26/2012 MidEastOklahoma

Construction/Electrical workers came over today and dug my electrical cable line and
put it in the ground. Tomorrow I'll probably have current to my 200 watt sevice panel
that's in the house.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20121126_115550.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: DmnYnkee01 on November 27, 2012, 12:36:24 PM
I really like your loft stairs.  I have been looking at ideas for loft stairs as well, and there are many interesting concepts for alternating tread stairs.  They definitely give more character to a space.

I will also be building in the Eufaula area, hopefully starting next spring.  Looks like the are several Okies that use this forum.   I have learned a lot reading through your thread.  Your place is looking great!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on November 27, 2012, 06:59:53 PM
Thanks for checking things out Chris BUT...those are not my stairs. Those stairs are ellbakers.

I just started to work on my stairs today. SBFFD (Stand by for further details).
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on November 29, 2012, 12:34:55 AM
11/28/2012 MidEastOklahoma

Done with the first stringer for the loft stairs. That 2 x 12 x 12 foot board weighed 60 lbs, 30 lbs after the cuts.

Doing the math took me a little while. It's a 90 degree stair with 3 steps then the 4th onto the 3' x 3' landing
and then do a 90 degree to the right and go up to the cat-walk by way of 10 steps. No matter how I tried to
calculate it, I couldn't get it to code the way I have it. I don't have to be to code where I am but I've tried hard
to do everything to code.

The rise is supposed to be no more than 7.75 and mine calculated out to 8.083. The treads are supposed to be
no less than 10" and mine ended up being 9.25. I think it'll work out all right though.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20121128_142813.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ColchesterCabin on November 29, 2012, 05:44:00 AM
Al just overhang your tread lips by an 1" with a rounded bull nose effect and you'll be just about in compliance..... Looking good to on the project as well.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on November 29, 2012, 07:08:47 PM
11-29-2012 MidEasternOklahoma

Got the stringers up and even put on a couple of treads. You can see how the stairs
take a 90 degree turn at the bottom.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20121129_144047.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on November 30, 2012, 09:35:34 PM
11/30/2012 MidEastOklahoma

Treads go on:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20121130_144918.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20121130_144953.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20121130_145027.jpg)
Title: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: duncanshannon on December 01, 2012, 03:43:39 PM
Looking good Al! Keep it up!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: DmnYnkee01 on December 01, 2012, 03:53:07 PM
What part of the lake are you located? Our land is about 3-4 miles southwest of the town of Eufaula.  Are the leaves mostly off the trees yet out there?  I am hoping the wind today is helping with that.  Going to try to get out that way tomorrow and do more site work.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on December 01, 2012, 06:17:34 PM
Hi Chris,

Ya, the leaves are mostly off of the trees on on the ground here. It's pretty warm around here today.

I'm just past Eufaula, only 8 minutes from the Texanna Rd. Exit. We'll have to get together soon.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on December 10, 2012, 07:16:58 PM
12/10/2012 MidEastOklahoma

Dug holes for the back porch this last weekend. Also got rid of the wood pile!

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20121209_170107.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on December 11, 2012, 07:04:33 PM
12/11/2012 MidEastOklahoma

The P-trap to the bathtub froze its water this morning and the tub wouldn't drain. That trap is the only
one that is below the house. There is no skirting of any type under there yet either so I guess I'm not
surprised at the freeze. I've read where I should box it in with insulation? Anyway, I put some hot
water and a wash cloth to it and it unclogged it in about 3 minutes.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on December 12, 2012, 07:11:53 PM
12/12/2012 MidEastOklahoma

Started the ledger board of my back porch. Nailed it and added 23 joist hangers every 16". I'll add the lag bolts next.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20121212_133910.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on December 12, 2012, 08:10:14 PM
Think about these (http://www.fastenmaster.com/details/product/ledgerlok-ledger-board-fastener.html); better than lag bolts.

BTW...
...what are they being screwed to?
...what is the plan for flashing the ledger / deck, ...?
...PT?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on December 12, 2012, 09:17:10 PM
Thank you again Don.

My ledger is being screwed to 2 standing 2x12 rim joists back behind the osb. I totally didn't think about the flashing Don. I will go out and get flashing for it tomorrow. Thank you !!!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on December 12, 2012, 09:25:26 PM
Remember the idea is to bring water that flows down to the outside, away from the building and do not count on a bead of caulk to provide proper protection. ...direct the water out and away from the building. Start thinking of how to direct water that might find itself on the housewrap after the siding and all is completed. (flashing starts under the wall housewrap above the ledger board.)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on December 12, 2012, 09:33:16 PM
If you have some Ice/storm guard I would use it to seal the "slit" that you need to tuck the flashing under the house wrap.  I let it continue over the flashing.  Remember that Presure Treated lumber does not like flashing(corrode) when it comes in contact with each other and the ice/storm guard will be a barrier that will prevent this close contact.

Most important is to have sufficent pitch on the porch of at least 1/8 - 1/4" drop per foot from the  house to the outside(front) of the porch/deck to prevent water from standing against the house.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on December 12, 2012, 10:04:05 PM
Very good ideas, thanks. Keep in mind that I'm putting a roof over that deck too, hence - a covered porch.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on December 12, 2012, 10:14:46 PM
Roof or not it will still get wet, maybe to a lesser degree, but wet is wet, IMO.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on December 23, 2012, 07:17:17 PM
12/23/2012

Added a rail and balusters to one side of the loft stairs. I cut 2x4's in half:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20121223_144839.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on December 25, 2012, 07:08:23 PM
12/25/2012

Merry 2012 Christmas from the Bremers!

I spent all day today, Christmas day, working on the tune "We Wish You a Merry Christmas" on my classical guitar. Then I spent all kinds of time recording it on my mac using logic software, then I used iMovie and made a little movie with still pictures, only an hour long.

Oh ya, I recorded it in my new countryplan home, it's snowing like mad out there but we are warm in here (an osb box - no insulation yet).

Check it out on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JA14q2d9_Lo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JA14q2d9_Lo)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on December 25, 2012, 07:12:46 PM
Where is the "like" button.   [cool]
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: John Raabe on December 25, 2012, 08:32:27 PM
Thanks for the holiday cheer!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on December 25, 2012, 09:20:47 PM
12/25/2012

Thank you John, you all have a wonderful Christmas and a great 2013. By the way, thank you for my countryplan!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Sassy on December 26, 2012, 01:15:24 AM
I was looking for the like button, too  ;D  Thanks!  Merry Christmas to you & your family & the rest of the CP family!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on January 01, 2013, 05:53:30 AM
01/01/2013

Wow, that date up there was pretty weird to type!

Anyway, made a new kitchen countertop. I bought a lodgepole pine panel (24"x72") and cut a hole in it for the sink.
I realize that this is very porous and soft wood for a countertop but we wanted the wood theme. The kitchen cabinets
were given to us by a neighbor that bought new ones.

What would be good to use on top of this to seal it but yet still reveal the yellowish pine look?

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20121231_220414.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Mike 870 on January 01, 2013, 09:32:53 AM
If food is going to touch it you probably want to use something like a linseed or toung oil.  If not, try Waterlox,  it has been used on wood countertops with good results.  It is a blend of oil and poly.  All of the aforementioned products will darken the wood though.  Someone else may have a  better idea for keeping the pine color.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on January 01, 2013, 09:46:53 AM
You could use Epoxy Resin.  It is used as a countertop coating which will preserve the natural color and provide a safe food grade coating.  It is used a lot in restaurants.  Some even embed decorative materials into the finish. Pine is an extremely soft wood and if you don't use a heavy material you will be constantly refinishing or recoating the surface.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: rick91351 on January 01, 2013, 11:05:22 AM
Want it to last?  Apply Formica and self-edge.

Real wood, there is a reason you hardly ever see it on counters.  Most that is there is a butcher block type that you can do yourself but WOW I would doubt I would ever take that on.  I might now that I am retired.  If you want the light colors and wood.  You might look at Maple flooring.  I faced a cabinet top with number one Maple one time and I guess it worked never received a this is not working message.  But it was an area where there is no water and not a lot of slicing and dicing going on.  (Number one maple flooring has almost no color or natural stain. Number two does but the structure is the same usually or so it was at one time. Don't know how they have screwed up that grading as of late.)

That said there are food grade oils available to treat such with.  They are available through several wood workers outlets and their web sites.     
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: tommytebco on January 01, 2013, 01:23:25 PM
The cabinet supply shop near me sells a plastic/ epoxy material for your application. A bar-b-que place near me has wood tables at least 35 years old. Every few years they recoat them with something like this. The table tops always look great.

The gallon can I saw cost around $35 IIRC.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Ndrmyr on January 01, 2013, 01:36:40 PM
Truth be known, you're not going to do a lot of food prep directly on the countertop, or shouldn't.  Use UHMC or wood cutting boards to protect the counter top.  Here is what I'd do:  Seal the top with two coats of Zinnser Seal Coat which is De-Waxed Blond Shellac.  It will really pop the grain of the wood and, will help to seal the pores.  Then, begin coating with coats of Rust-o-leum Ultimate Polyeurethane High Gloss.  The high gloss has less solids and therefore is more durable than Satin or Semi-Gloss.  Lightly sand between coats.  I would expect to put on a minimum of 3 coats of the poly, but, being water-based, it dries quickly, so multiple coats aren't as bad as it sounds.  As you do this, you will see your build-up get better and better. Personally, I would probably aim for 5 coats.  After the final coat, wax with butchers wax or Johnson's Floor Wax, DON'T use car wax as it has silicone in it and buff to shine.  You can reapply a coat of wax at any time.  This will help water to bead up and protect your finish.  If you have the stones, prior to waxing, lightly sand with high grit, say 400 grit paper or 0000 steel wool. Then wax and buff.  If in the future, you decide to refresh the poly, you will have to use a dewaxer prior to adding poly.  I believe that Lowes is the exlusive distributor for the Poly, and they sell the Zinnser.  There are few VOC's in the water-based poly which is also soy-based.  The wax will help you to be food safe. Frankly, I would only use food safe waxes and oils on moist food contact such as salad bowls or soup bowls.  For those of you who have bowls from foreign countries, whether China, the Caribbean or Africa, I would never put anything in them but bananas or oranges.  You have no idea what they are finished with, and it is almost certainly not food safe.  I refinished a foreign bowl for some friends and it turned out quite nice.  But I instructed them to keep food out of it and they put in on their tv as an art object, which is probably the appropriate usage.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Alan Gage on January 02, 2013, 06:17:03 PM
I did similar for my counter tops, maple veneered MDF. I sealed mine with polyurethane. Going on a year and no problems. It's food safe once it's dried.

It would also be a good idea to smear some silicone or something of the sort on the cut edge where the sink is installed to keep water from damaging it.

Alan
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: nathan.principe on January 02, 2013, 06:30:40 PM
I have wood counters too, as previously mentioned I used marine grade  epoxy resin I had left over from a boat build.  If it was the right thing to in regards of being food safe I dont know, but it will last a life time!  I got it from raka.com
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on January 05, 2013, 05:45:52 PM
my 2 cents worth....  A nice hard clear finish does not do much for dent prevention of the soft pine. If that was in our kitchen it would look slightly beaten.  For all round durability the formica counter tops do quite well; except for where I placed a too hot pot once.  :(

But since you already have cut it for the sink I'd think about a two part epoxy like Interlux Perfection Plus Two Part Varnish



Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on January 27, 2013, 05:14:43 PM
Al did you get snowed under in OK?  Hadn't seen anything recent.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on January 28, 2013, 09:23:49 AM
Hi Redoverfarm,

I've been slowing up. I'm living in my 'osb-box' but it's still a house. I don't have insulation yet but I've started to run my 12/2 line through the studs. Yesterday I put in about 10 receptacles and got them working.

What caused the big building slow down for me is not working weekends. I didn't work about 5 or 6 weekends to make the big extra money right before Christmas last year. When that extra money stops, the build slows. I've started working overtime again so now I'm looking forward to things like: siding, insulation, walls (boards and not drywall), and metal skirting because I'm over 4 feet off the ground. Of course I have a lot more to do than those things but those are the major players when it comes to money.

Remember, my country plan cottage is debt free, no bank, payday to payday. It's a nice feeling not to have a house payment.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on January 28, 2013, 09:57:56 AM
Quote from: ajbremer on January 28, 2013, 09:23:49 AM
Hi Redoverfarm,

I've been slowing up. I'm living in my 'osb-box' but it's still a house. I don't have insulation yet but I've started to run my 12/2 line through the studs. Yesterday I put in about 10 receptacles and got them working.

What caused the big building slow down for me is not working weekends. I didn't work about 5 or 6 weekends to make the big extra money right before Christmas last year. When that extra money stops, the build slows. I've started working overtime again so now I'm looking forward to things like: siding, insulation, walls (boards and not drywall), and metal skirting because I'm over 4 feet off the ground. Of course I have a lot more to do than those things but those are the major players when it comes to money.

Remember, my country plan cottage is debt free, no bank, payday to payday. It's a nice feeling not to have a house payment.

Nice hearing from you Al.  Yes it does tend to go a little slower when you choose to "pay as you go route".  But it does give a little more piece of mind.  Keep us posted on your progress.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on February 26, 2013, 09:41:19 AM
Tuesday Morning - 2/26/2013 @ 8:35am Oklahoma

It's been almost a month since I posted last, things have been real slow due to weather and switching a motor out on my Festiva.

Yesterday, I got my log-siding delivered - just enough for one out of the four sides. It's planed from 2x8 Southern Yellow Pine. The guy who planed it said that the wood was better than number one grade. How can it be better than #1? I thought #1 was the top?

Anyway, I have a question about my four corners of the house. What is the most common way to meet the log-siding at the corners? I've seen real nice places here where they had a large log with a 90 degree cut in it and that was what they used at the corners. Can I use 1x6 cedar boards at the corners?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on February 26, 2013, 09:46:33 AM
Al you want a thicker piece for your corners.  You need to cover the end of the siding.  Exposed edges are open to the elements and will rot.   Install the corners first and then the siding.  Caulk the joint after it is installed.  The trim around windows and doors should be the same.  If you have already installed them out of 3/4" you can add another layer to make them thicker to work with the demensions of the siding. 
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: bayview on February 26, 2013, 09:51:11 AM
"Select" is the top-highest grade . . .   

Lower grades are not all created equal.   A #2 from one lumber yard may not be as clear as a #2 from another.

/.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: JoelE on February 26, 2013, 11:14:13 AM
Not meant to hijack this thread but a thought for others who may like the butcher block look but don't care to break the bank either - I have bought many of the tops from IKEA in past as they often hit "sale" prices at $42-49 range. At that point they are about the same as  doubled up or "sandwiched" sheet birch or maple ply. Way harder and no finishing. Usually have 2-3 types of wood/colors when they on sale too. Just a thrifty thought.

http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/40057396/

Solid - I have actually 4 being used as tool benchs and on mobile tool carts carring various saws and such in my shop. I've wiped on a couple coats of poly on some for super smooth gliding and glue clean up (lol). Anyways .... just another cheap option when they on sale
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on February 26, 2013, 12:27:31 PM
 I've usually made log siding cornerboards and trim out of 2x material, the siding is usually 1.5" thick. Experiment with screwing it on from the backside rather than face nailing it. I like to run my powerplaner up the center of the backside to create a relief. The siding because of its' shape wants to dry convex on the back, the relief cut allows it to bed on the top and bottom better. It's also a good idea to prestain all sides and hit the ends good before nailing it up, end grain is usually where trouble begins.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on February 28, 2013, 02:56:57 PM
They guy who made and sold me my log-siding said that for the corners he has used a 4x4 post and notched a 90 degree out of it.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on February 28, 2013, 03:15:51 PM
I guess anything would work (woodwise) as long as the demensions were the same or more than the siding.  Personally I would rather make all the trim and corners appear to be uniform.  As a side note if you do go with the 2X route just take into consideration the lap joint to form the 90 deg so that you will not end up with unequal demension on the two opposing walls.  In other words if you use 2X4 one side will only be 2" wide because you are getting the other 1-1/2" on the lap.  Both sides will then appear as 3-1/2".  Clear as Mud?  I think I said that right.

If I recall in your earlier post that you had already used a smaller demensional lumber on your window/door.  There is noting to prevent you from adding the additional layer so that it will match up to your corners.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on February 28, 2013, 05:11:32 PM
The 4x4 does work fine, basically its the same as cutting a corner out of a log and using that.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on March 12, 2013, 05:58:41 PM
Tuesday Morning - March 12th, 2013

Started to do the log-siding today:
(Pic coming soon)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20130312_141534_zps17bc8fea.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on April 09, 2013, 07:53:29 AM
Tuesday - April 8th, 2013

I'm sorry that I haven't posted anything about my build for so long and that they have slowed down. I replaced a motor in my Festiva and it worked out ok but it took me almost 2 months! I was only able to work on it a little every day.

People at work told me that if I move into my build before the inside is totally finished then I'll hardly never get it done. Now I see what they mean. Since I'm in my place and enjoying it, I kind of get relaxed, take the weekends off, and do other stuff. What happens because of that is a small paycheck. What happens because of a small pay check is no going to Lowes...nothing gets done.

I have started my log-siding on the gable end of the house though...just one piece so far. Now that my Festiva is basically running again I need to really get out there and get things done. I'm basically living in an OSB box but ya know what, we kept warm all winter. I really had to get the right kind of wood in our Ashley wood stove and we had the fans in just the right places. We also bought a couple of those Walmart heaters and we were able to be comfortable...most of the time.

Again, sorry for all of my delays in my posts. We consider ourselves to be so blessed that we have a place of our own and that it's paid for. It may not be totally done yet but it's our 'Country Plan' home!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on April 09, 2013, 08:56:31 AM
I know how it goes. Unemployment has me just about at a stand still. Fortunatly i accepted a job at lowes so at least i get a discount ;D

Just remember that osb wont last forever uncovered. I am already begining to loose my sub floor because of no roof over it.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: UK4X4 on April 09, 2013, 08:59:44 AM
Looking good Al,

no harm in taking a break and enjoying your creation a bit

But summer will be shortly here and prime building time is now !

Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on April 18, 2013, 12:06:24 PM
Thursday Morning - April 18th, 2013 Oklahoma

Starting into putting up my log siding. I went around the windows with 1x cedar. I guess I'll have to double-up the 1x cedar boards so that they'll protrude beyond the thickness of the 2x8 log siding. What are the best nails to use for those cedar boards?

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/house02_zps449fe2b0.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on April 18, 2013, 02:13:28 PM
Stainless Steel ring shank are best, followed by aluminum ring shank with galv steel being next (hot dip is better than electroplate) Aluminum may be too soft for nailing into some wood
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: suburbancowboy on April 18, 2013, 05:28:12 PM
When I put mine up I used galvanized screws.



sorry i screwed up here , very sorry   d*  MD
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: suburbancowboy on April 18, 2013, 05:29:44 PM
Also it is funny that you mention the cedar window trim.  That is what I am using to trim the windows on the inside.  I should have some pictures this weekend after I am finished.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on April 18, 2013, 07:29:19 PM

I've had the bright zinc plated screws corrode from the acids or whatever in the cedar over time and then leaves ugly streaks. I've never tried looking for hot dipped galv screws. Something to think about. The S/S I have used remain clear and unmarked even when the wood is unfinished as in a fence board left natural. Proper nails will also have a blunt point so it tears or cuts through the wood fibers, rather than a wedge point that can cause splits more readily. There are also screws with special points that cut fibers instead of wedginng there way through the wood.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on April 18, 2013, 07:31:56 PM
I noticed the other day that my local Lowe's was carrying 5/4 cedar boards in various width, S3S = three sides smooth and one rough sawn.  5/4 = true 1 inch thickness.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on April 18, 2013, 11:59:38 PM
Great information ya'll. I'll look for those screws Don.

It feels good to once again start working on the house, the smell of wood being sawn, etc.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: astidham on April 19, 2013, 11:20:17 AM
Looking Good Al!
Cant wait to see the finished product.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: UK4X4 on April 19, 2013, 06:42:07 PM
as your logs are 2" thick- can you not pry off the existing cedar- screw the new thicker section to it from the rear

Then angle screw it from the sides - ie hidden fixings from where the thickest part of the log is
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on April 19, 2013, 06:45:34 PM
I wouldnt use cedar to shim it out further i would put pine behind the 1x cedar trim
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on April 19, 2013, 09:35:13 PM
Quote from: CjAl on April 19, 2013, 06:45:34 PM
I wouldnt use cedar to shim it out further i would put pine behind the 1x cedar trim

Al if by chance you do decide to use white wood then you should stain it and put a preservative on it.  Unfinsihed wood outside has a short life. ;D
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on April 19, 2013, 09:40:19 PM
Down here its measured in weeks.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on April 20, 2013, 10:01:23 PM
Got just a little further today:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/logsiding4-20-2013-2_zps9e5deb48.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on April 21, 2013, 10:27:29 AM
Looking good. Glad to see you back at it
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Alan Gage on April 21, 2013, 12:32:48 PM
Lookin' good Al. Such a good feeling to get the siding done.

Don't forget the house wrap on the gables.

Alan
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on April 27, 2013, 08:29:09 AM
Saturday Morning - April 27th, 2013 @ 8:14am

Just thought I'd share some log siding pictures. I've gotten a little further (again). Little by little every day.

Now I'll have to build me a type of shelf to stand upon so that I can safely carry, hold, and attach those 16 foot long siding pieces way up there at the gable end. I realize that the horizontal log siding pieces will get shorter as I reach the peek but I'm just trying to do all I can to be safe. Remember I built a similar shelf system so I could safely do my shingles on my 12:12 pitch and it worked out great.

Here's a picture of how I did my shelf/scaffold for my roof. The design for siding my gable will be similar but different:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20120912_124146.jpg)

Here's pics of my log siding so far (on my east gable end):

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/logsiding04-26-2013-04_zpsd897251d.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/logsiding04-26-2013-03_zpsc1539603.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/logsiding04-26-2013-02_zps3d7ad1e6.jpg)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/logsiding04-26-2013-01_zps66fb0ea1.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: TheWire on April 28, 2013, 08:53:35 AM
Al,  When doing wide window trim on a log home, I cut a bevel on the very top of the trim and at the sill so there is not a flat surface for water to sit on.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on April 29, 2013, 02:28:07 PM
Monday Afternoon - April 29th, 2013

A little more log siding done today. Things are getting up pretty high now. The greenish discoloration in the picture can't be seen in real life. It must be some kind of reflection.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/LogSiding4292013_zpsc78b4631.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 01, 2013, 02:46:13 PM
Getting up in the air now...

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/5-01-2013-logsiding02_zps8c467383.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: suburbancowboy on May 01, 2013, 03:29:06 PM
Yup, brings back memories.  Wait till you get to that area above the upstairs windows.  That is where I started to get nervous.

(https://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww170/bret7763/20121007_142338.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 02, 2013, 01:06:54 PM
Thanks suburban cowboy, that looks great and it gives me some ideas too!

Well, yesterday a friend at work just moved into a new house and didn't like a few things about it. He had a couple of awnings over some windows that he didn't like so he gave them to me. I drove them home last night and put them up on top of the front and back door this morning. I'll have to remove them when I put my log siding on but that's not a problem.

Here's the front awning:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/awning-front_zps885f29a2.jpg)

And here's the back awning:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/awning-back_zpsc9363e03.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 27, 2013, 09:16:05 PM
Working on my house has really slowed down lately.

I haven't been working the overtime offered me for months now so the materials haven't flowed in like I'd want them to. After this next week I plan to kick it in gear and get back to work on the place once again.

All I did this memorial weekend was rest and watch movies...how dare me!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 02, 2013, 08:15:09 AM
Tuesday - July 2nd, 2013

It's a nice sunny morning...a good day to mess with insulation?

Anyway, my local lumber yard has been gracious enough to give me credit every month and that opens up the awesomeness of me being able to always have building materials on hand. In the past, I've usually ran out of money between paydays so that option is good (as long as I stay within my budget).

I've begun to insulate my cathedral ceiling, 15' x 2' long strips. I staple my insulation on the bottoms of the 2x's. I've seen where people have stapled their insulation to the inside of the 2x's right near the bottom - what's right, what's best?

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20130629_092852_zps3b2155bc.jpg)

Also, I'm still using my little Ford Festiva as my work truck. Here it is with 12' long 2x12's in it:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20130625_123614_zpsc10d663f.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on July 02, 2013, 08:45:43 AM
Al generally it is stapled to the inside of the rafter near the top.  This is so that the rafters are visible when you go to attach the final covering weither that be drywall or T&G.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on July 02, 2013, 06:01:04 PM
Wow, thanks John.

It doesn't surprise me that I've been doing it wrong. Thanks again!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on July 02, 2013, 09:26:38 PM
I feel a little less silly for haing 16 footers in my su urban now, thanks
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: waterbug on July 19, 2013, 05:30:21 PM
I am glad to see the Festiva work truck is still going strong Al. 
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on August 01, 2013, 12:37:16 PM
Wow,

Here it is August 1st, 2013 and I haven't worked on the house in many weeks. Of course I have a ton of work to do on the house.

I have the material to build the back porch, I have enough wiring and receptacles to run more wire, I have a little bit of insulation left that I can hang, and I have a stack of dry wall too. I guess I just have to get the 'build bug' again. To top off this minor rant, it'll be in the 100's all next week.

You'll be seeing many pics and vids when I do start up again...it'll be soon - thanks!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on August 13, 2013, 05:14:31 PM
come on AL, YOU CAN DO IT!!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on August 21, 2013, 08:14:48 PM
Ok CjAl,

I've started again. Maybe I'm getting the building bug back!

I realize that I still haven't finished the log siding on the gable end (and the rest of the house) but I have to wait till I get another load of log siding.

Here's the start of my back porch roof:
(Pic coming soon)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20130821_140839_zps7517e3ba.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on August 26, 2013, 10:38:47 PM
Monday Night - August 26th, 2013

Got a few more posts up for the back porch:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20130826_142042_zps7c1b3c0a.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on August 28, 2013, 08:38:28 AM
Wednesday Morning - August 28th, 2013

More back porch work.

I have some questions:

I wanted to originally have the back porch 8 foot wide but I used the infiltration system for my lateral lines which are directly below the 5' mark width of the porch. That is why the porch cantilevers about 27 inches. That said, I put my porch roof posts right at the edge of the 7'3" porch width. Since there's no support under there I'm going to put a brace under each upper post that angles down to the bottom of the post under it. I wanted you to know that first. Now my question:

That rim board above the post is a 2x8. My rafters are going to be 2x6's. I'm going to use 5/8's OSB with the same shingles on it as my main roof. Should I use 2 rim boards, one on each side of the posts or will just the one you see work?

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20130827_140033_zpse1d47263.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ColchesterCabin on August 28, 2013, 09:41:34 AM
Psts look like 4x4's, less than an 8' span I would notch the top of the 4X4 on the inside edge and you should be okay with 1 in my opinion. After all in OK there shouldn't be high volumes of snow. If there is then you may want to laminate 2. If the posts were 6x6 I would notch the inside and outside edge and run 2. IMO anyways. Glad you got the bug back!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on August 28, 2013, 10:54:30 AM
Thanks ColchesterCabin!

The posts span is 5.5 feet. Right now I have a 10" long piece of 2x4 screwed into the post and under the rim so that the rim is held up by it. The rim is also screwed into the post in 4 places at each post. I'll put in a few more screws later. Here's a pic:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20130828_102551_zps8e6eb76c.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: UK4X4 on August 28, 2013, 11:13:48 AM
Oaklahoma - the land of tornadoes !

Why not cut the posts down run a triple beam and use simpson brackets - I know it will cost more but would be a more standard construction method

Sure someone will pipe in with a proper way of doing it for your area
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on August 28, 2013, 01:37:44 PM
I'm not sure I follow what this quote means,  "I wanted to originally have the back porch 8 foot wide but I used the infiltration system for my lateral lines which are directly below the 5' mark width of the porch. That is why the porch cantilevers about 27 inches."


IIRC, OK has a snow load of 20 psf.  The 2x8 should do the job of supporting the roof load. But...

... Scabbing a section of 2x to the post with fasteners is not a good method. That mainly relies upon the shear strength of the fastener for vertical support. It also relies heavily upon the integrity of the 2x8 and the 4x4 wood. If it begins to split at any of the fastener penetrations that fastener's strength becomes zero.

Better would be using a 4x6 for the beam and placing it on top of the 4x4 posts using Simpson post/beam connectors as was suggested.  Notching the post to provide a ledge/shelf for the 2x8 as suggested would also probably be better than using fasteners to hold the 2x8 on the side of the post.

But the real more important issue is the large cantilever of the floor which is supposed to hold that roof load as well as the floor load along with all the people that may congregate and be leaning on the future railing.  There is no doubt in my mind that the roof support posts should be aligned over the posts that carry the loads to the ground. A brace system will help, but most of the attempts to brace and carry loads sideways and then down usually rely too heavily on mechanical fasteners. Fitting a diagonal timber as is done in timber framing would likely be the better crutch. That requires some notching and fitting.

I do not have any other solutions as to how to best execute this without moving the posts that are in the ground to be in alignment with the roof posts.  ???

This also raises the question of how the floor beams are connected to the posts in the ground. They appear to be scabbed 2x as supports there too. 

Regarding the screws. They appear to be the common gold zinc plated screws. Those are not very good when shear forces are applied to them. They can snap with no warning; not rated for structural use. Good for holding down a deck board, but not to support a shear load. If that is what those screws are they should be replaced with a suitable structural rated screw at the very least. (Fastenmaster and GRK make some structural rated screws.)  Also, if those are the gold zinc screws they are not compatible with any PT wood. The posts appear to be PT. Those screws in PT wood will corrode and eventually become very thin and easy to snap.

(It may take some years and may not. The wetter the weather/wood the faster the corrosion happens. I have run personal tests with scraps of PT wood and different screws and nails. The PT approved are fine after years... the gold ones are now rust inside the wood where you can not see.)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on August 28, 2013, 06:12:46 PM
Thank you for such an informative post Don. I will get the proper screws. Also, instead of bracing the roof post diagonally to the inset floor posts, I also thought of using concrete pier blocks that'll sit on the ground along with a StrongTie Adjustable Post Bases.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on August 28, 2013, 06:43:31 PM
Quote from: ajbremer on August 28, 2013, 06:12:46 PM
...concrete pier blocks that'll sit on the ground ...

IN the ground below frost depth as the main house is, or you are inviting differential movement between the main house and the porch posts. The foundation for the existing porch floor posts are the same depth as the house?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on August 30, 2013, 09:44:56 AM
My whole house is on angle iron stilts so I thought I would use some more.

I used angle iron to hold up the outer rim board in order to support the cantilevered porch. I'll dig more holes and do the same at the other post locations. Maybe I'll be under the back porch roof by Sunday.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20130829_183814_zps46619a18.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on August 30, 2013, 07:33:43 PM
Got a few more rafters up on the back porch. I'm going to try to get them all up tomorrow:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/BackPorch3-08302013_zps9fee7467.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on August 31, 2013, 09:59:28 PM
Got all the rafters up on the back porch today. Hopefully, tomorrow I'll get the osb, felt, and shingles started. The picture doesn't show all rafters up yet but I worked into the night and finished.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/BackPorch1-08312013_zps3a78e6c3.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on September 01, 2013, 07:41:00 AM
Al I think I would add my porch supports before loading the rafters w/osb & shingles.  Just a thought.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on September 02, 2013, 10:47:26 PM
Thanks Redoverfarm.

I got the OSB on the roof. Tomorrow I hope to finish the post supports and lay the felt paper...maybe even start the shingles.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20130902_193438_zps7dfc9fc6.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on September 04, 2013, 06:02:30 PM
Finally able to 'play' on the back porch:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20130904_144808_zps70d72d16.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ColchesterCabin on September 05, 2013, 06:27:39 AM
Congrats Al, looking good on your porch!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on September 07, 2013, 10:28:14 AM
I put #15 paper down on top of the OSB for the back porch roof. Next comes the shingles:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20130906_141614_zps797e4202.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on September 07, 2013, 04:55:05 PM
Al is that ice/storm guard underlayment on the drip edge?  Might prevent ice dams if you are installing gutters.  But generally it is laided first and stair stepped up with felt to the higher portion.  Is there any reason you used 15# istead of 30#? Tried to look at some of the photo's to see if you used a drip edge to protect the edge of the sheeting but was only one that I seen of the edge.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on September 07, 2013, 08:35:35 PM
Thanks Redoverfarm, nice to hear from you.

Yes, I used a drip-edge under the #15. I used the #15 because I thought that would do the job.

I guess I don't know what you mean by 'ice/storm guard underlayment'...do you mean the #15 felt?

Thanks again Redoverfarm
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on September 07, 2013, 08:42:56 PM
Quote from: ajbremer on September 07, 2013, 08:35:35 PM
Thanks Redoverfarm, nice to hear from you.

Yes, I used a drip-edge under the #15. I used the #15 because I thought that would do the job.

I guess I don't know what you mean by 'ice/storm guard underlayment'...do you mean the #15 felt?

Thanks again Redoverfarm

It is a ruberized membrane that self heals from nail penetrations.  Usually 36-39" wide.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/W-R-Grace-36-in-x-75-ft-Grace-Ice-Water-Shield-5003002/202088840#.UivVx9zD9jo

In this neck of the woods #15 is usually used for walls and #30 for the roof.  They say it is more protection for the shingles and extends their life some.

Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on September 07, 2013, 10:08:45 PM
Thanks again,

I didn't know about the #15 for walls and #30 for roofs - thanks.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on September 10, 2013, 11:29:11 AM
Tuesday Morning - September 10th, 2013 @ 11:25am Oklahoma

I started to shingle the back porch roof yesterday, only got a couple of rows up...man it's hot up there on that black paper, I can't even kneel on it.

I did my whole main roof by hand and hammer. I had a friend from work lend me nails and a roofing nail gun, wow - I like that idea!

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/09092013-Shingles_zps7b2fe664.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on September 10, 2013, 11:33:16 AM
My wife is a poser!

I asked her if she would come up on the roof and lay some shingles down. She said all that she would do is 'pose' with one:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/09092013-Robin_zps1163574e.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on September 10, 2013, 02:29:11 PM
A few more rows today:
(Pic coming soon)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/09102013-shingles_zps1d94eee9.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on September 10, 2013, 03:44:35 PM
Al the seasoned roofers work at daybreak until 11AM then knock off until 6PM and hit it another couple of hours before dark. You don't realize how hot a roof can be until you try it at mid day. ;D
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on September 10, 2013, 03:48:38 PM
Here in town we get a couple hours of decent light before the sun breaks over the mountain to the east. It's the best time of day for roofs.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on September 11, 2013, 10:35:32 PM
My countryplan house is kind of up on stilts, angle iron stilts and it's about 4 feet off the ground.

Here's a guys log-home (kind of looks like a countryplan home too) but he built it about 100 feet up off the ground:

Picture first and then video link:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/LogCabinHighPlayHouse_zps7f34e0c1.jpg)

http://www.kltv.com/story/23396876/grandfather-builds-towering-playhouse (http://www.kltv.com/story/23396876/grandfather-builds-towering-playhouse)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ColchesterCabin on September 12, 2013, 06:26:32 AM
That's super awesome, sounds like something I would do....
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on September 12, 2013, 09:36:47 AM
Got a few more rows of shingles done on the back porch yesterday:
(Pic coming soon)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/ShingleBackPorch09112013-02_zps53b885ea.jpg)

Question: My back porch roof is about 5" lower than the end of the shingles of the main roof, there's a gap there. At first I thought about going right up to the house with felt (which I did) and then just cover it with shingles leaving the gap. BUT, a driving rain could splash up into the gap. What is the best way to have the porch roof meet up with the main roof, flashing? Or could I just shove shingles under the main roof shingles and then drop them down and have them meet the porch roof? The only problem I see with that is that there would be no backing and/or support in that area. Here's a picture of my problem:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/ShingleBackPorch09112013-01_zps5b064f2b.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: rick91351 on September 12, 2013, 10:38:18 AM
What Jerry our old roofer would have done there most likely would have been lay your flashing into the marriage line.  Then start across working up between the tails of your rafters with matching shingles.  All the while he is yelling in some dialect about building in proper order and putting the cart before the horse and do it yourselfers.  All the while lecturing on you have any idea how hard it is to nail something properly in places like that?

Nope Jerry that's why I called you...............    ;D   (Jerry is no longer here - past away last year - got to find another Jerry  ???  )
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on September 12, 2013, 10:48:48 AM
The proper approach would have been to flash the intersection where the porch roof meets the siding of the house.  Second problem is that your rafter tails should not be exposed.  Without them being plumb cut it will be very difficult to make that step in a transition from the porch to the main roof at their ends.  Yes it might possibly be able to be done but will take some ingenuity.  What is the overhang on the shingle edge to the upper portion of the rafter tail? 
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: rick91351 on September 12, 2013, 11:21:23 AM
John is right and that is what I meant by the marriage line for the flashing. 

Here there are still some houses and cabins built with exposed tails.  But we do not get the moisture and you have to regardless keep them well painted.  The sun wrecks havoc on exposed wood just the same as moisture.  And I think now houses designed with such have to be vented for such rather than using standard soffit vents or what we called blocking vents up between the tails notched out and screen over.  Pretty hard to have soffit vents if there is none.   :D           
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on September 12, 2013, 12:29:42 PM
I will put flashing under the main roof shingles - down to and on top of the porch roof shingles and then tar/seal the nails.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on September 12, 2013, 12:41:22 PM
Quote from: ajbremer on September 12, 2013, 12:29:42 PM
I will put flashing under the main roof shingles - down to and on top of the porch roof shingles and then tar/seal the nails.

Al by blocking off the air flow  you will have no venting for your house roof.  How much clearence is there between the tip of the rafter tails and the shingles on the porch roof?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on September 12, 2013, 01:34:40 PM
Can you get into that space with a palm nailer?
http://www.amazon.com/BOSTITCH-PN50-Mini-Impact-Nailer/dp/B002RU94B2/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1379010838&sr=8-4&keywords=palm+nailer+cordless
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/319601A6SqL.jpg)

And are there nails that can be used for roofing with a palm nailer? That I don't know.

~~~~~~

How is the main roof vented anyhow?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on September 12, 2013, 02:39:42 PM
Done with the shingles on the back porch. I put a small piece of flashing in picture just to show how I plan to use flashing down the whole length:

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/BackPorchShingle09122013-04_zps7a1794cb.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on September 13, 2013, 08:23:34 PM
I just about finished my flashing between the main 12:12 pitch and 2:12 pitch roof transitions. I used a 12" wide flashing.

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20130913_132917_zps6b4e254b.jpg)

You can see how I attached my flashing in this little picture. I was given advice to use that Grace Vycor rubber stuff and I'm going to apply the Grace flashing over the top of the metal flashing with the idea that the metal will support the grace better.

I guess it all may seem weird but to me it feels very sturdy and I don't believe no wind, hail, snow, ice, or rain will be able to make the metal flashing come loose or bend.
(Pic coming soon)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/flashing_zps3d66e720.png)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: North Sask on December 09, 2013, 10:48:43 PM
Hi Al,

I just spent a week reading through your entire thread. Very interesting story. I learned a lot from your experience. It's been about three months since your last post. Any updates for us?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on December 27, 2013, 09:34:11 PM
Friday Night - December 27th, 2013 @ 8:20pm

Got the front done with my log-siding.

I have a friend who has his own planer and he charges me $0.95 a linear foot. He uses #1 2x8's 16 foot long. They are very good quality.

Also, there's a link after the picture to a video of me on the front porch playing a Christmas song. I was going to practice it and do a few takes but after the first take my Border Collie howled and it was so cool that we used the first take. You see, our border collie doesn't like any high pitches on any musical instruments and goes berserk, howls, whines, etc. so we always have to put him out in the back when I play. Just listen near the end...it kinda sounds like we're in Alaska around wolves or something.
(Pic coming soon)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/photo-8_zpsb8b8697b.jpg)

Here's the video link: http://www.sonicunity.com/al2013.mov (http://www.sonicunity.com/al2013.mov)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on December 30, 2013, 09:26:50 AM
December 30th, 2013 @ 8:08am Monday Morning: Oklahoma

The house may look like I'm getting close to done but I still have a long way to go.

In the beginning, when I told my friends at work that I was going to live in the place as soon as I had a roof and walls up they told me that it would take 'forever' to finish. Well, it is taking a long time - they were right!

I've made some inner rooms, built walls (closets, bedrooms) on the inside, put batt insulation between some of the rafters, and insulated the inside of 'some' exterior walls. I've been living without insulation for some time now. Of course that means putting a lot more logs into the wood stove and using more electricity for the window air conditioner units but we have kept warm and cool.

I have a question: I've got a lot of insulation and I'm trying to figure out where the best place to start would be. Because of work and some other things, it goes slow so I need to insulate first where it would be the most advantageous to this cold weather.

My house is about 4 feet off the ground, up on angle-iron and steel tube piers. There is no insulation between the floor joists down there and the place has no skirting of any kind so the wind and the cold just blow right under there. So even when the place is 'warm and comfy', the floor is cold. The south and east sides of the house have log-siding on the outside. Some one told me that 1" of wood is equal to 3" of insulation - I wonder if that's true?

Anyway, where should I start to insulate first? Should I use my wider batts and insulate under the floor between the joists, should I finish up insulating the cathedral ceiling because heat rises and that would keep the heat in? Or, should I start by insulating the walls? I'm kind of thinking that even though the place is warm, the floor is acting like a refrigerator - I'm not sure. Any suggestions as to where I should start to put my insulation?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: astidham on December 30, 2013, 09:44:55 AM
Hey Al,
I would insulate the ceiling first since up is the quickest escape route for heat followed by walls.
As far as the floor goes, I would skirt your crawl space, and insulate against the skirting before I would insulate the joist underside
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on December 30, 2013, 10:32:02 AM
That sounds like the deal Todd...thanks!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on January 03, 2014, 02:30:35 PM
Top down and as soon as you can. Personally I'd leave everything else and get all the insulating done  ASAP.

As for the floor / crawl space, I would enclose and insulate the crawl space to help keep the plumbing from freezing.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on January 10, 2014, 01:11:27 PM
One more vote for the cieling.


I feel you pain. We picked the coldest week in history to move into the house and we have noninsulation and I dont even have a chimney for the wood stove yet. Nothing but space heaters. I had to buybplastic and enclose the bedroom and bathroom to keep some heat in. Hard to heat 16' cielings with no insulation and space heaters.

Of course the decision was sort of made for us when the heater in the motorhome quit. We have no plumbing in the house yet but the motorhome is parked right next to the house for showering and bathroom duty
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: _JT on May 27, 2014, 09:10:21 PM
Read through this whole build thread in the last few days, and I wanted to thank Al for your transparency in letting us see the failures and missteps as well as the successes. There's an absolute treasure trove of info here, and it's because you weren't afraid to ask silly questions until the answer made sense to you. Well, and of course because the wealth of knowledge around here who are happy to share their hard earned experience.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 27, 2014, 08:28:11 AM
Thanks _JT - I appreciate your comments.

I've been long lost for awhile and haven't been around country plans no where near like I used to be. I decided not to work overtime this year and spend more time with family and wife (and unfinished house) therefore building materials and the 'building bug' has left me for a little bit. I've cleared some land in the back of my house and we spent $200 and got our little 12 x 30 portable building moved to the front of our property. Other than that, my house building has been next to nothing.

I looked back today at my first post here on this thread, back in May of 2011 - a month or so more than 3 years ago, wow! It's amazing to me to see people who get their house built in a couple months, inside and out and here I am, 3 years after building my house - wondering how many years it'll be before I just have all my insulation and walls in. I'm still walking around on 'Advantech' flooring! BUT...I'm blessed with a wife that is satisfied as much as I am with life, house half built, land, house, and cars all paid for. I still have old bills caused by stupid mistakes but it's great to not owe a bank any money for something you own.

I do plan to get on the ball again and start with the videos, pictures, and many stories. One of my main stories is the digging and completion of pier hole #1, where I had my wife Robin get in the hole and put a board over her head to show the people how big I tried to dig my 15 pier holes. Check the video out, it's the first post on page 3 of this thread. I also noticed that the pier hole #1 video was basically 3 years ago today...almost exactly.

Ya'll thank you very much and I look forward to fill this thread more and more - thanks for watching!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on September 23, 2014, 11:49:07 AM
It happens when you are living in it All. I've been in mine 9months and have gotten little done but much of that's due to my wife loosing her job too. But she just started a new one. We still don't have water or inside bathroom so your ahead of me. Lol
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on November 24, 2014, 08:53:43 AM
I've been away from CountryPlans for too long now, sorry!

I've been back at it, working on the house. I've lived in my un-insulated CountryPlan 20x30 with loft for almost 3 winters without insulation...and we stayed warm. Yes it is possible, just use a lot of heaters and wood in the stove. To make matters more difficult, my CPlan house is around 4 feet up off the ground on 4"x4" angle iron without skirting and no insulation under the floor either. BUT...

I finally insulated all of the walls and now I only have to insulate the roof and under the floor. I first am going to use corrugated tin for skirting so I wanted to ask you all a question about the best way to cut it. I could make it easy and run the tin horizontal but I really like the vertical look of the corrugations. The hard part is that I don't know a great way of cutting the stuff. I have some small metal cutters but it's very time consuming and difficult to cut with them, I just don't have the right tool and can't afford the best tool right now.

Can anyone give me suggestions on a low priced method of cutting the tin?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on November 24, 2014, 09:03:18 AM
Al it just depends on the thickness (guage) of metal.  But if you have a 4-1/2" angle grinder or 7-1/2" skill saw you can buy metal cutting blades for those. They should work for most metal in the 26-30 ga range.   Not grinding blades but cutting blades.  I had bought one of Harbor Freight's air nibblers but get better results with straight cuts using the above method. 
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: UK4X4 on November 24, 2014, 09:05:47 AM
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Air+Sheet+Metal+Shear


If you still have your compressor and hoses from the framing


If you have a grinder handy...

http://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-DW8061B5-0-045-Inch-Stainless-Cutting/dp/B005B8LZ14/ref=sr_1_5?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1416837829&sr=1-5&keywords=cut+off+discs


or just fancy a workout

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=aviation%20snips&sprefix=aviation+sn%2Caps

get the offset ones to keep hands out of the way
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on November 24, 2014, 09:17:34 AM
Some metal suppliers can sell you whatever lengths you need. We got the metal roofing panels I used for the skirting on our cabin through Lowe's. They cut it to the exact lengths I needed. I measured all around the perimeter every three feet (panels covered 3 foot width) and made a map.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: pmichelsen on November 24, 2014, 12:27:26 PM
As Red said it would depend on the gauge, but I usually just get a metal blade for my skill and can rip a few sheets at a time with thinner stuff.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: rick91351 on November 24, 2014, 01:33:34 PM
I vote for M-D's way of getting it done.  No waste - no muss no fuss!!  I have turned the blade around on my skill saw and cut corrugated roofing as well.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: GSPDOG on November 25, 2014, 09:20:58 PM
Quote from: rick91351 on November 24, 2014, 01:33:34 PM
I vote for M-D's way of getting it done.  No waste - no muss no fuss!!  I have turned the blade around on my skill saw and cut corrugated roofing as well.

My metal shop cut it to length as well. however there is always a little cutting to do and I use Ricks method of turning the saw blade around.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on February 02, 2015, 06:50:05 PM
Ok, I'm finally putting skirting around the house. I'm using thin metal (1/32) and running it vertical. I turned the blade of my saw around and it cuts it like butter. I get 24"per width when I overlap. I'm not sure I like the way it looks but this is what I'm doing for now. I think it would look nice if I cover the metal up with lattice to make it look more 'woody'.

(Pic coming soon)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/Skirting-02-02-2015_zpsc27b704a.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on February 02, 2015, 09:29:45 PM
By the way, by looking at the above picture - you'll notice how the bottom log-siding boards on the right of the picture turned black from water, I know that's a bad thing. I've always planed to put a covered porch in front of the house but just haven't gotten to it yet. I've heard people say that you can spray the siding with power wash and then use water seal on it. I guess I'd better do something quick.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on February 03, 2015, 09:04:39 PM
Finished skirting the front:
(Pic coming soon)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20150203_143026_zpsfoc2ypqk.jpg%5D)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: astidham on February 03, 2015, 09:32:41 PM
Looks Good Al
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on February 03, 2015, 11:55:04 PM
Cool...thanks Todd!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on February 05, 2015, 12:58:03 PM
I had a friend at work build me a Trestle Table, it's 8 foot long and he charged me $110. I sanded and painted it.

(Pic coming soon)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20141207_143329_zps8idjqxp5.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on February 05, 2015, 01:12:48 PM
Quote from: ajbremer on February 05, 2015, 12:58:03 PM
I had a friend at work build me a Trestle Table, it's 8 foot long and he charged me $110. I sanded and painted it.
https://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m489/ajbremer/20141207_143329_zps8idjqxp5.jpg (https://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m489/ajbremer/20141207_143329_zps8idjqxp5.jpg)

(https://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m489/ajbremer/20141207_143329_zps8idjqxp5.jpg) (https://s1128.photobucket.com/user/ajbremer/media/20141207_143329_zps8idjqxp5.jpg.html)

[cool]
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on February 07, 2015, 09:43:48 AM
After almost a whole couple of years I guess I'm getting the building bug again and just want to finish up my place.

I've got my skirting around the front of the house done and now I'm just about done removing all the junk/storage stuff I've been putting under my house for awhile. I figure that if I'm going to skirt all around the house then I shouldn't have nothing under it. I'm going to mount at least 2 lights under the house so I'll be able to move around down there freely without the use of a flashlight. My place is 3 to 4 feet off the ground so I can just about walk around bent over under there. Since I've cleaned it out real nice these last couple of days I'll take a video and show you all how my place looks underneath. I honestly don't think anyone has ever seen a house built like mine, the way I built it on 90 degree angle iron with welded braces.

I had a new friend over the other day and he's retired and has seen a lot of houses built in his life time and was skeptical that he'd see something new. He was blown away when he came over and looked at what I did. I basically set the house on horizontal angle iron and it's held up by vertical angle iron that's been welded to the horizontal angle iron beams.

Also, yesterday I bought 8' posts and cement so that I can start building the front porch...cool!!!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on February 08, 2015, 06:03:16 AM
I made a video of how I built my angle iron pier and beam countryplans.com house.
http://youtu.be/pXt3NaFCRVc (http://youtu.be/pXt3NaFCRVc)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on February 08, 2015, 09:37:31 AM
02/08/2015

Hooked up PVC drain line for washing machine water that runs into our ditch and not our septic system.

http://youtu.be/m2T1Jee05qU (http://youtu.be/m2T1Jee05qU)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on February 12, 2015, 07:07:19 PM
Finally got all of the skirting done around the house. I used the thin stuff (29 gauge - around 0.013) but I believe it'll hold up in the wind.

Now I'm excited about starting to build the front porch. I'll use about 5 treated 4x4 posts cemented in pier holes that'll be around 2' deep running the 30' length of my countryplan home. Then I'll use 2x6's (untreated) for the rim joists and I'll also use 2x6's 16" apart running perpendicular to the rim joist that's connected to the house. Then I'll use Advantec flooring (4x8) for the floor because it'll be a covered porch.

After all that, it'll be time to do the porch roof. Pics and vids to come shortly...thanks!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on February 17, 2015, 09:48:04 AM
Well, it's the 2nd day in a row with snow on the ground here in SE Oklahoma...first time this winter. I've been wanting to dig the holes for the front porch posts but it ain't warm enough just yet. My floor is much warmer since I've skirted the place and the p-trap for the bathtub hasn't frozen even though it's around 20 degrees out. The floor is still kind of cold but no where near as cold as it was when there wasn't any skirting. Oh well, warmer days are coming.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on February 25, 2015, 08:36:22 AM
I sure would like to get out there and start to dig my front porch pier holes but there's still snow on the ground here in mid-east Oklahoma. Oh well, it'll happen!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: CjAl on April 12, 2015, 07:05:10 AM
Good to see you back at it Al
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on April 22, 2015, 08:57:26 AM
I've decided to build a garage on the lot that I own next to the lot my house is on. It'll be a 26' x 36' and I'm going to build it like a pole-barn, with dug piers holding posts up. In order to save money I'm going to skip concrete and go with a pad made out of crusher rock and pea gravel. I've heard that people go with that and that it gets really hard and flat. Are there any good links around here where people have built a garage of this type?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on April 22, 2015, 05:45:25 PM
I found a pretty good video of someone on youtube who shows how to build a pole garage without concrete and on a slope. It's very close to the way I plan to do mine:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5zmuRUiFwo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5zmuRUiFwo)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on April 23, 2015, 10:41:02 PM
Front end loader was over today and we removed trees, chain sawed, and leveled a pad and got it ready for crusher-run. The pole-garage will be 26x36.
https://youtu.be/CVh-GfRl-X0 (https://youtu.be/CVh-GfRl-X0)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on April 30, 2015, 08:17:23 AM
I'm close to putting my posts in for my 24x32 pole garage. I talked to a friend recently who had a pole barn built and they didn't use concrete for the post - just the dirt. It was explained that the 'local soil' is better around the post because if it was to move the void would be replaced by more soil. If it was concrete, the result of movement would be that the post would 'bore' more into the ground.

It seems to me that the surface area of the soil around the concrete would have stronger gripping power (especially on the down force) than just dirt around (or on the bottom of) a wooden post. BUT...apparently there are pole-barns being put up without concrete. If I knew I could get away without using concrete or gravel around a pole barn post I would do it.



Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on April 30, 2015, 08:41:38 AM
Just ram the dirt back into the hole around the post. Use a digging bar with a mushroom head for tamping. The secret in a good hard tamping job is to refill in layers; called lifts in the dirt trade. Place 6 inches of dirt in the hole and tamp hard. Repeat till full. Mound the dirt around the post so water runs away from the post rather than to the post. I've never used concrete for filling around posts of any kind.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: rick91351 on April 30, 2015, 10:22:06 AM
A couple observations from someone that has set hundreds of posts.  At this late age feels more like thousands...  To me personally I would never set a fence post with concrete other than maybe a well used gate post, or chain link posts.  The gate post we used for such was a thick walled scrap pipe about eight inch in diameter.  Doing so I would not use post mix.  But good old everyday sack-crete.   ???  So what does that have to do with a pole barn?  Surprisingly much.  Concrete to wooden post to plastic anything you put into the ground starts to decompose.  Agreed some more quickly than others but never the less.  Pressure treated posts make huge disclaimers as to how long they will last.  Unless it is a local ordinance requiring they be set in concrete.  Smart wise thing is just dirt.  Well tamped and I mean well tamped like MD outlined.   Now if done properly you will not have anywhere enough dirt to put back in to the hole.  Just a fact of life. 

Now say one of your posts even if pressure treated (PT) rots off.  What you have to do in this case - on a pole building and it becomes a problem - then you dig right beside it.  Might have to jack hammer like the slab that that point but dig down beside the defective post you bury a cripple (short post) beside it. Tamping it in best you can.  Then drill through both posts and bolt it a couple times with tread all.   Now if you are having to do that with a cemented post you have a real problem.  Some say well if it is concreted in they will not rot.  Rotting actually occurs right at ground level or a small distance below but mostly right at ground level.  Take it from someone that has had to dig out more than just a few conventional 'planted' posts and a cemented it is huge hard work.

But if you decide you need to cement I think I would use post mix you might have a lot better luck breaking it out.  There is another product that I have seen used.  It is pellets you pour in to the hole - add water - let sit.  When it hardens it is like concrete - but you can get through it with a good digging bar and a lot of time and sweat.           

       
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on April 30, 2015, 12:18:15 PM
QuoteNow if done properly you will not have anywhere enough dirt to put back in to the hole.  Just a fact of life. 

Right, I can always pound all the dirt into the space around the pole and come up short if I really work it.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on April 30, 2015, 08:30:16 PM
Why thank you fellers, I learned a lot right there! Do many people make the mistake of setting their wooden post in the ground using concrete types of stuff instead of dirt?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on April 30, 2015, 09:34:55 PM
Only an opinion... but I'd say way too many use concrete around their wood posts. Maybe a majority of DIY'ers.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: rick91351 on April 30, 2015, 10:11:13 PM
Al I would never say anyone is making a mistake any more than debating who is a better guitar player.  I built several sets of working cattle corrals when I was in high school and collage.  Then just have been around a lot of cow calf operations.  My thing is just the experience of being raised  on a ranch - farm.  I truly think there is just a lot of assuming that you have to cement to make it last forever.   
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: nailit69 on April 30, 2015, 11:36:33 PM
My old man swore by sand and water... set hundreds of posts that way... most if not all still standing to this day... 10 ft. post/RR tie buried 4ft. in the ground.  On that note... a friend of mine worked for one of the largest pole builders in western Wa. state (google that sh!t) and that was thier preferred method as well.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on May 01, 2015, 05:39:05 AM
A footing under a post spreads out the load from the post over a larger surface area. For instance a 6x6 post has roughly 1/4 square foot of surface area on its bottom. In average soil of 2,000 lb per square foot bearing capacity the post can then carry a 500 lb load without being in danger of settling. Typically a post carries more load than that so we put a spread footing under it. I typically dig a 2' square hole and pour a concrete footing... 4 square feet of bearing area, the post can now carry 8,000 lbs safely vs the 500 lbs of just a post end. The footing doesn't have to be concrete, it can be pieces of 4x or 6x treated forming a footing. Attaching the post well to the footing or to 2x boards lagged to the sides of the post while backfilling help prevent uplift in high wind. The uplift then has to extract the soil  along with the post rather than just the post.

At the ground surface a concrete collar or slab is sometimes poured. When the engineers are figuring out how much bracing the posts are contributing to the building they can figure out how much this "constrained" condition contributes to the bracing. I personally don't like posts embedded in concrete but do like to set them on concrete.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 01, 2015, 09:08:01 AM
Thanks Don_P, that was great information. You mentioned that average soil has 2,000 lb per square foot bearing capacity, but what about when you pound the soil down around the post in layers and pound a few layers under the post before setting it, wouldn't that increase that capacity? This leads me to another thought, if I had a pole barn that is 32' long and is being held up by 5 posts 8' apart from each other - how much weight is each post carrying? (average pole barn wall?)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Adam Roby on May 01, 2015, 06:14:40 PM
Hmmm... I have to say I am quite surprised about all this talk of wood in the ground... I figured members would advise against it.
This site tends to be biased against post/pier buildings in general, so I figured advice on anything related would not be as forth coming. 
I stand corrected. sorry for misjudging.

I had a friend that used to swear by using pea gravel/crushed stone instead of concrete, but he did have to realign his fences periodically.  He is also a pretty lazy guy so I really doubt he compacted every 6 inches.

Would anyone also suggest using tar or some other wood protection to increase the PT wood's longevity in the soil?  I suppose that might also impact the quality of any groundwater, so might not be legal. 
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 02, 2015, 04:41:01 PM
I went to my local lumber yard today to get some quotes on 5"x5"x14' post ($35.00 - $36.00) and I mentioned to the guy about putting post in the ground without using concrete - he thought it was a crazy idea and mentioned that 'around here' they always use concrete for posts or the walls will buckle and move.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: John Raabe on May 03, 2015, 07:30:51 PM
Concrete can hold water against the post (perhaps not a problem in dry climates). Crushed rock, well packed, will drain water from the hole. You can prolong the post life with a coating of roofing tar for 12" either side of grade (the area where rot is most likely).

later... Bracing is what provides lateral stability (not what you pack in the hole) and is important enough to have it engineered for a pier foundation.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on May 03, 2015, 09:06:32 PM
Quote from: Adam Roby on May 01, 2015, 06:14:40 PM
Hmmm... I have to say I am quite surprised about all this talk of wood in the ground... I figured members would advise against it.
This site tends to be biased against post/pier buildings in general, so I figured advice on anything related would not be as forth coming. 
I stand corrected. sorry for misjudging. 

My bias is against poorly braced pier and beam foundations, I've consistently tried to move folks with that notion to use post frame construction instead. Foundation grade treated would be the best way to go. If the post runs from footing to top plate and is braced by the wall, life is good.

AJ, what is causing their posts to buckle? Buckling is typically caused by overloading a column. Constraining one at ground level would shorten a column's "effective length" but if you're in that territory you probably just need to decrease post spacing, shorten the walls, increase the post size... something along those lines.
Compacting soil does increase its' bearing capacity, I read a book on soil engineering one time. I've now told you everything I remember from it. I do ram gravel into the bottom of a pier hole if it feels like it would benefit from tightening it up. You won't get where you need to be with just a 6x6 post end unless it is on a big rock.

Post load, 8' span x half of the 24' roof width= 96sf, for you I'd use 30psf total roof load, 3000 lbs, the walls wouldn't go more than 10psf so you're up to around 4000lbs per post. So if the soil is good for 2000 psf you need about 2 sf of footing. 2 pieces of 6x6 2' long side by side with a 2x12 on top to make them into a 1'x2' pad that the post sits on would do it.

Going on to make some assumptions towards the buckling question. If the posts are 14' long 6x6's in #2 SYP the allowable axial stress is 300 psi, you're at about 130 psi. Buckling in that sense... true buckling of the post isn't an issue.

There are also plastic post sleeves that increase post life.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 04, 2015, 08:13:24 AM
Thank you John 'sir' and Don_P!

Hey Don_P, I may have used the wrong term (buckling) as far as the posts. I don't particularly remember exactly what the lumber yard worker said about the walls moving if their done without concrete, I just remember that he thought it wasn't a good idea and mentioned that they always use concrete in pole barn posts around here.

As far as your last post: I'm first wondering about using the treated 6"x6"x1' posts along with a 2x12 for a footing in the ground for my posts to sit on. Will the ground eventually eat up all that wood? What if I poured a little concrete footing in the bottom of the hole for the post to sit on, used a plastic sleeve around the post, and then just pack the dirt around it - that seems my best way to go.

I have another question about the 'banding' method that I should use at the top of my post but first this. I realize that this site doesn't sell plans for pole barns and is not 'countrypolebarns' or anything like that. I did purchase my house plans here and I did build my house and I have this long thread to prove it but now I've found myself with a bunch of used cars and I need a place to work on them so I realized that I needed a garage and I figured that this site and the knowledge that you guys have could easily answer all my questions. So if I start to fill this thread up with too many pole-barn/garage questions and if you think it is swaying too far away from actual country plans homes then I will refrain from further pole barn/garage questions. Actually, I did search this site for pole-barn plans but found none.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on May 04, 2015, 11:09:38 AM
I believe concrete is used around posts many times as it is easier, especially if there are a lot of posts and the concrete comes off a transit mix truck.  Somer will consider it easier even if they are mixing concrete in a small mixer. Some will pour dry mix in the hole and add water' also easy, easier than pounding dirt. Pounding dirt works though.

Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on May 04, 2015, 06:09:11 PM
Concrete makes for a cheaper, easier, and better footing. A wood footing is not going to rot, the post will rot right around ground level long before wood that is well buried. Decay fungi need, moisture, temperature, food (the wood), and oxygen. well underground there is little oxygen where at ground level there are all of the ingredients the rotters need and plenty of innoculants in the topsoil layer.

There have been studies on the plastic post protectors and they seem to conclude that even with an open top free to let water in, they are protecting the post from the soil and do make them last longer... well using that logic, John's tar method should be better and there is one post manufacturer that is basically hot dipping the end in a rubber/tar type coating and wrapping string around the gooey post for abrasion resistance then baking that coating on. Continuing with that logic, is a concrete filled hole any worse? But I have seen it seem to rot posts quicker than I think they would have otherwise.

The "banding" around the tops of the posts is a beam that carries the trusses. It should be properly sized and notched into the posts, not simply nailed or bolted to the sides of the posts. I'll check it in a bit, gotta go unload the ranger, we accidentally loaded about 2 tons of sawmill lumber on it, she's not happy  d*.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on May 04, 2015, 06:36:04 PM
Quote from: Don_P on May 04, 2015, 06:09:11 PM

Concrete makes for a cheaper, easier, and better footing. A wood footing is not going to rot, the post will rot right around ground level long before wood that is well buried.

Don I think the biggest problem with using concrete is that they do not slope the top and did not raise the portion of concrete above the ground level.  Yes it takes a little longer and you have to go back a couple times and keep pulling it up the post to get that bevel but that really is no problem as within an hour or so it will keep it's form. 

If they try to make a nice level pad around the post then they are asking for trouble.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on May 04, 2015, 08:39:58 PM
OK, got a happy truck again  :) A friend came over to help at the sawmill yesterday and we were merrily sawing and stacking, when I looked back there the tires were about to blow. Got about half off last night and the rest a bit ago, red oak, cherry, poplar and a locust.

That would certainly help John. One of the arguments I've heard against is that the post shrinks, water gets in the gap and just sits there keeping the post juicy. Sloping to drain at the top would certainly help. Concrete that forms a larger surface area does help "constrain" the post to some extent.

The roof carry beam at the tops of the posts, we've already figured there is 3,000 lbs of load with an 8' span, it is uniformly distributed. I'm assuming Al is using #2 SYP. A double 2x10 would do the job. I'd use an old detail from the land grant college plans... notch opposite sides of the post top 1.5" deep for the height of the 2x10s, run one on each of the opposite faces, leaving a 2.5" gap between the 2x10's. Rip some 2x6 material to 2.5" to insert vertical pieces between the beams on 2' centers.  Cut them long enough to run from the bottom of the 2x10s and sticking up enough to run alongside of the trusses, nail the trusses to those vertical pieces, poor boy hurricane tie and truss bracing. The 2x10's I'd buy as 16'ers, the first one on the outside is 8' long, then a 16. On the inside face start with a 16'er, this will distribute the breaks and help tie the building together. 

Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 04, 2015, 10:42:50 PM
Thanks again Don_P!
You mentioned: "I'd use an old detail from the land grant college plans"...where can I find them and what are they for?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on May 05, 2015, 12:19:54 AM
I believe he means plans like the ones on this link at NDSU (http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/extension-aben/buildingplans/)  I have many of these plans in an old out of print book from MSU plus a whole book on old site built trusses.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 05, 2015, 09:04:29 AM
Thank you MountainDon, that site has some pretty good plans. I downloaded those truss plans because I'm think about building my own trusses. As long as they are 20 psf of snow load and 80 mph wind resistance.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 05, 2015, 01:10:24 PM
Hey Don_P, thanks for the information on the 'Roof Carry Beam'...the banding at the top of my posts. First, I was going to buy 5x5 post but I see by your measurements that you've referenced 6x6's. I guess it would be better for me to go with 6x6's?...is that the norm? A challenge that I will have will be to make sure the base of each hole is totally level. I will be using treated wood laid flat at the bottom of each hole for the posts to sit on. I have a bunch of old oil from cars and I figure I'll paint the bottom of each post with the old oil. Once all of my post hole bottoms are level, I'll be able to notch those spots in the top of each post for acceptance of the 2x10's you mentioned BEFORE I stand them up and put them into the hole. It would be great if I had a picture of what your describing. You mentioned, "I'd use an old detail from the land grant college plans". If you find that 'old detail' send it to me please. The carriage bolt method through the top of the posts and through the 2x10's would make it real easy because I wouldn't have to have my hole bottoms level...but I guess it's not the best way to band the top of those posts. What if carriage bolts were used and there was also a scabbed piece of wood nailed to the post that sits perpendicular too and under the 2x10's on each side?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on May 05, 2015, 02:05:04 PM
Al unless you have a transit or builders level it is going to be very difficult to get each hole the same depth and level in the bottom.  Not sure what length of 6X6 you are buying but with a little planning you can get fairly close.  As long as they are not too high to hit your roof or purlins.  I normally set my post and then cut the tops to the right height.

You can tack the 2X10 on one end and raise the other with a 4' level resting on the top edge to get the top level.  Probably have to re-set it again on the furthest mark you made to go the entire distance to the other end. 

Very seldom do the post work out exactly given the height needed and the available length of the post.  Just make sure that the bottoms are set the same depth for a proper footing and go from there.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on May 05, 2015, 10:55:38 PM
See if this helps. You are using those 2-1/2" verticals to tie the beams together as well, I'd get 3 or 4 nails into the vertical from each side of the beam, then from the vertical into the truss. Predrill if it's tough wood that wants to split.

(http://timbertoolbox.com/sketches/posttruss.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 06, 2015, 12:55:14 AM
Great information and great picture Don_P...thank you for being so helpful. That looks like a very strong support method.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Adam Roby on May 06, 2015, 04:54:35 PM
Ooohh... transparency, never saw that feature before.  All my plans leave out a wall or two so I can see inside, me need to learn that trick!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on May 06, 2015, 09:15:35 PM
view>toolbars>styles. You'll get a styles toolbar on the top, mouse over till you see "x-ray" and click that tab. I use it a fair amount to clean up hidden lines or in a situation like this, handy  :)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 08, 2015, 08:51:51 AM
I like those 2 1/2" verticals that help to support the trusses and add stability to the banding beams at the top and I also like the idea of the way the posts are notched to accept 2x10's at the front and the back. I guess the best way to do all that would be to notch the posts while their on the ground which would mean that I'll have to be sure that the bottom of the holes are on the same plane so that when I raise up all of the posts, all the bottom notch cuts are perfectly level. I don't own a laser level but I have a neighbor who does so I hope to use his. What other tools or methods could I use to level the bottom of my holes to a plane?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: pmichelsen on May 08, 2015, 10:33:46 AM
Quote from: ajbremer on May 08, 2015, 08:51:51 AMWhat other tools or methods could I use to level the bottom of my holes to a plane?

I would get a transit, decent ones can be found for fairly cheap and they'll make short work of it.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Adam Roby on May 08, 2015, 06:08:30 PM
I'd maybe try a string with bubble to find a common level then measure down.  Might also work with a tube and colored water, just use the level mark as a reference point and measure down into the hole.

(http://www.hultafors.com/contentassets/72c426ddc4f343939354bbae14eda233/images/h0078402804_line-spirit-level-uz_artnr_402804.jpg)

Might not be the most accurate, but I'd guess it would be fairly close.  (Or is this a case of "only counts for horseshoes and hand grenades")?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on May 08, 2015, 07:11:56 PM
Seems to me that attempting to level the bottom of the hole, or the top of the poured concrete footing in the hole is going to be very difficult. I have no idea what a professional pole barn builder does, but my inclination is to set the poles and then use a transit or a water / tube level to mark a datum point on each post and then trim the tops.

At least that is how I did the posts on our small barn / big shed. I concentrated on setting the four corners as square and as plumb as I could. Everything followed from there
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Don_P on May 08, 2015, 10:11:31 PM
You can do either, If you have a level footing in the ground you can measure from it and notch on the ground. Every pole barn I've done or seen built they set the poles then cut them. You'll be happy to have scaffold there to set trusses.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 12, 2015, 01:10:55 AM
The electric company hooked up my construction pole/meter that will feed my garage it's electricity during the building process today. My construction pole stands about 12 feet out of the ground and was put in by the soil tapping method spoken of in past posts here in this thread. As I talked with the electricians that were putting in my meter I mentioned people putting concrete in pole barn post holes and that it's better to just use soil, they agreed totally and reminded me that all telephone poles are 5 to 6 feet in the ground and they tap the soil around them...no concrete. I guess that's pretty good proof of the soil method over concrete for sure!

I googled utility poles and found some interesting facts, here's some quotes:

"The standard utility pole in the United States is about 40 ft (12 m) long and is buried about 6 ft (2 m) in the ground.[3] However, poles can reach heights of 120 ft (37 m) or more to satisfy clearance requirements. They are typically spaced about 125 ft (38 m) apart in urban areas, or about 300 ft (91 m) in rural areas, but distances vary widely based on terrain. Most utility poles are made of wood, pressure-treated with some type of preservative for protection against rot, fungi and insects. Southern yellow pine is the most widely used species in the United States; however, many species of long straight trees are used to make utility poles, including Douglas-fir, Jack pine, lodgepole pine, western red cedar, and Pacific silver fir.

Traditionally, the preservative used was creosote, but due to environmental concerns, alternatives such as pentachlorophenol, copper naphthenate and borates are becoming widespread in the United States. For over 100 years, the American Wood Protection Association (AWPA) has developed the standards for preserving wood utility poles. Despite the preservatives, wood poles decay and have a life of approximately 25 to 50 years depending on climate and soil conditions, therefore requiring regular inspection and remedial preservative treatments. Woodpecker damage to wood poles is the most significant cause of pole deterioration in the U.S."

I find all that pretty interesting. Does that mean pole barns will last 25 to 50 years before the buried wood rots?
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: UK4X4 on May 12, 2015, 07:11:48 AM
"Does that mean pole barns will last 25 to 50 years before the buried wood rots?"

I'd say it was an average measurement on when they usually change out the poles pro actively as they need to withstand X force............in order to do their job.

For the electricity supply company they probably just have X years use for x type of pole and just routinely inspect and change, rather than wait for them to fail in use.

I know in the UK we have a busy ex- electricity post business with them being resold for other uses as they are far from unusable when recovered

The poles dont have eaves and walls protecting them from rain, and so will be wetter than a pole barn post in normal usage.

wide eaves, good ground drainage away from the barn and dry soil would exponentially prevent rotting due to water.

Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 12, 2015, 08:29:03 AM
Thanks UK4X4, that's stuff I didn't think about.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 20, 2015, 10:58:58 AM
Well, the rains have pretty well flooded the soil around here in mid-oklahoma. Lake Eufaula is more than 13' above normal and has flooded some businesses, homes, docks, trailers and storage buildings. My dirt pad, where the pole garage will be, is too soft for machines to come and shot, level, and lay stone. I'll just continue to plan, mess with my sketch-up model, buy some supplies, and wait for dryness.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 25, 2015, 08:18:33 AM
Well, it's May 25th, 2015 and it's still wet like crazy - I can't do any work on the pad for the planned garage for some time. I'll need about a week of no rain for the dirt to dry up enough for the stone to be laid on the pad. The news said this month of May broke a record for becoming the wettest month in Oklahoma history with 12.29" of rainfall (8.61 above normal)...and the month isn't even over!

This leads me to a question I've been wondering about these last few 'wet' days: How deep can water penetrate into dirt? Flash flooding is caused by run off because the soil can't hold water anymore, meaning that the water doesn't sink into the ground because it can't go any deeper. Take a wooden electric pole that is sunk 5 feet into the dirt, at it's 5 foot depth - is the soil always dry down there?

My house is held up by 15 steel piers that are 3 feet concreted into the ground. Another crazy question but if water stood continually around all of those piers could it ever turn into mud and start to sink? With all of this rain it's got me to thinking...that's all.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: rick91351 on May 25, 2015, 09:46:28 AM
Guess I really do not understand your question - Water is pulled down into the ground by gravity - Hopefully this recharges lagging aquifers, (water tables) and springs hopefully bounce back.  Just a fact of life and an act of nature. 

No your five foot hole is not always dry hopefully unless you live in a charming place like Death Valley places there go with out measurable precipitation for years.  When it does occur it is scant and non measurable.  That said you hole five foot deep will not become a mud sink hole either.  Unless there is a hydrological even ie a spring 'springs forth' there.  There was a home up here where we live and that was exactly what occurred.

Here the reason for flash flooding is not just caused as you stated - but too much rain to sink in to the ground in the amount of time it has on surface.  It has to go some where.  Or fill up a five gallon bucket with several inches of water.  Dump it out it will not immediately be absorbed in to the ground but splashes and runs high spots to the low spots.  Now replicate this in your mind. Several inches dumped all at once over a large section of Oklahoma - Kansas - Texas. All moving high spot to low areas.  Soon the volume becomes a destructive rage.

Chances are your piers are fine however it is also another reason I am such a strong advocate for footing and stem walls.  However I do like piers because it would and does give a chance of the water dry out....       
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on May 28, 2015, 09:45:09 AM
I'm still waiting for it to dry up around here, in fact it's raining hard right now AGAIN! A lot of flooding going on around here in Oklahoma and NOT a lot of construction going on.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: rick91351 on May 29, 2015, 06:55:35 AM
Quote from: ajbremer on May 28, 2015, 09:45:09 AM
I'm still waiting for it to dry up around here, in fact it's raining hard right now AGAIN! A lot of flooding going on around here in Oklahoma and NOT a lot of construction going on.

I hate the thoughts of the mosquitoes - and no see'ms and other critters that hang around until it dries out.....
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 08, 2015, 06:49:23 PM
5 loads of gravel brought in today for the garage pad. Here's a little video of when the first 2 loads came:

https://youtu.be/m_8LY0sCvWE (https://youtu.be/m_8LY0sCvWE)

Here's the pad after 5 loads of stone:

https://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m489/ajbremer/20150608_143233_resized_zpsnwzysvxc.jpg (https://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m489/ajbremer/20150608_143233_resized_zpsnwzysvxc.jpg)

https://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m489/ajbremer/20150608_143250_resized_zpsgx355wcm.jpg (https://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m489/ajbremer/20150608_143250_resized_zpsgx355wcm.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: mpulse on June 10, 2015, 03:21:49 PM
Im new here just read through the whole thread.  I am building my place over around Porum.  Was wondering about who you bought your siding from, want to go that route with my place
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 12, 2015, 10:53:10 AM
Hi mpulse, I sent you a personal message. Thanks again for checking out this thread.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 19, 2015, 10:25:05 AM
Friday - June 19th, 2015

Well, the flooding and the rain finally stopped here in mid-Oklahoma so now I can begin building my garage. Today I plan to put in my batter boards and I'll probably nail the string to them this weekend. I can rent a post-hole digger from a nearby town for $75 a weekend as long as I have it back by 8am the following Monday.

One thing I'm realizing is that my pad is all crushed stone, just a few inches above ground on one side and about 1 1/2 feet high on the other. I thought I was going to be able to have a 32 x 28 but it'll have to be 24 x 28 due to the pad tapering off on its sides. I'll have to have my post go into the ground around 2 1/2 to 3 feet and I'll also have to pass through the stone so that's 4 1/2 feet deep on that high side.

My plan is to put in my 6x6 treated posts 8 feet apart at garage door and entry door locations and every where else. Then I'll band the top, band the bottom (with 2x6's), and I'll probably even put up my trusses and maybe even the metal roof before I get the concrete poured. They say it's around $110 a yard around here now and I'll need about 9 yards.

Here's more of my pad pics and vids:

https://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m489/ajbremer/20150608_143250_resized_zpsgx355wcm.jpg (https://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m489/ajbremer/20150608_143250_resized_zpsgx355wcm.jpg)

https://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m489/ajbremer/20150608_143233_resized_zpsnwzysvxc.jpg (https://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m489/ajbremer/20150608_143233_resized_zpsnwzysvxc.jpg)

https://youtu.be/8m4ZXaY9nHA (https://youtu.be/8m4ZXaY9nHA)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on June 20, 2015, 07:16:14 AM
AJ check your distance carefully around the garage door opening and any other access doors you might install to make sure that the post do not interfere with those.  Remember to allow for your rough opening dimensions. Hard to move later allow for those.  Sometimes you may have to shift it a little one direction or the other.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 20, 2015, 09:55:41 AM
What is the standard width that I would need for the larger (wider) garage door opening for my 6x6 posts? How about for a standard garage entry door?

I got my first batter board up yesterday, here's a pic:

(Pic coming soon)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20150619_134147_zpsmd3btk6d.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Adam Roby on June 20, 2015, 11:05:06 AM
I am quite sure you already know this but I will post anyways, please don't take offense if it was done on purpose.

Quote from: ajbremer on June 20, 2015, 09:55:41 AM
I got my first batter board up yesterday, here's a pic:
https://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m489/ajbremer/Mobile%20Uploads/20150619_134147_zpsmd3btk6d.jpg (https://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m489/ajbremer/Mobile%20Uploads/20150619_134147_zpsmd3btk6d.jpg)

If you enclose the image's link in IMG tags, then the image will appear here without us needing to link to it.  I just makes it easier to follow IMO.
(https://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m489/ajbremer/Mobile%20Uploads/20150619_134147_zpsmd3btk6d.jpg) (https://s1128.photobucket.com/user/ajbremer/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20150619_134147_zpsmd3btk6d.jpg.html)

Photobucket actually has an automatic link generator you can just click and paste in the post.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: MountainDon on June 20, 2015, 11:50:57 AM
Of course the easy method is to copy the IMG tag link from the photobucket page (lower right side of image)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Adam Roby on June 20, 2015, 11:55:44 AM
Quote from: MountainDon on June 20, 2015, 11:50:57 AM
Of course the easy method is to copy the IMG tag link from the photobucket page (lower right side of image)

Same meaning as my "Photobucket actually has an automatic link generator you can just click and paste in the post." but in a way that actually makes sense.  :)  Thanks MountainDon.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on June 20, 2015, 03:13:04 PM
Quote from: ajbremer on June 20, 2015, 09:55:41 AM
What is the standard width that I would need for the larger (wider) garage door opening for my 6x6 posts? How about for a standard garage entry door?


Well we are talking about two different things.  The standard garage door is 8'W X7'H.  But I would be inclined to look at the 9'W door especially if moving equipment, trucks , tractors and the like.  You can check the rough opening required for the doors where you normally shop. 

The entry doors are pretty well standard being 2" wider than the actual door itself.  Say 36" door needs 38" W & 81-1/2"H for a prehung steel entry door.

Also on the garage door there is a little more framing required for the track and opener.  Not a whole lot just anchoring plates.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 21, 2015, 06:54:24 AM
Good Day Redoverfarm and thank you for that rough opening information.

What I'm wondering is this, once I know my rough opening sizes - is that where the edge of the 6x6 posts should lie or should I allow for boards nailed to the edge of the 6x6 posts to be the opening?

Also, thanks for the tag information Adam. I know what your talking about, you can tell by looking at the hundreds of times I used the 'proper' tag when you look back through my past posts. I got in a hurry and it's also been a long time since I've been posting here on almost a daily basis. But, I'll take all the help I can get and I thank you sir!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on June 21, 2015, 07:30:11 AM
Quote from: ajbremer on June 21, 2015, 06:54:24 AM
Good Day Redoverfarm and thank you for that rough opening information.

What I'm wondering is this, once I know my rough opening sizes - is that where the edge of the 6x6 posts should lie or should I allow for boards nailed to the edge of the 6x6 posts to be the opening?


AJ your rough opening is the inside dimensions of your rough framing.  In other words the inside of your 2X material which is attached to your 6X6.  If you placed that dimensions just in between your 6X6 and then add your 2X material the opening will be too narrow. 
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 21, 2015, 04:22:02 PM
That's exactly what I was wondering Redoverfarm...thank you. I was just confused and wondering why I needed 2x material, why couldn't I just forget about the 2x's on the posts and use the posts alone for rough openings? (Just put a header up top of the 2 posts)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Redoverfarm on June 24, 2015, 10:53:28 AM
Quote from: ajbremer on June 21, 2015, 04:22:02 PM
That's exactly what I was wondering Redoverfarm...thank you. I was just confused and wondering why I needed 2x material, why couldn't I just forget about the 2x's on the posts and use the posts alone for rough openings? (Just put a header up top of the 2 posts)

Bad idea IMO AJ.  The post are permanent structurally.  Break down and spend a few bucks for the 2X material.  Attach them to the post both sides (inside).  Then use two more for the top ( one set in on the front and the other face mounted).  Then come back and attach a third to the top nailing it horizontally onto the two previous.  Then you will have a perfectly framed opening which I assure you will make a lot nicer job and be easier to attach the door track and trim.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: garyc on June 24, 2015, 03:08:18 PM
Rough Opening for Garage Door

The opening size for roll up and garage doors are different than other types of residential doors. They close up against the rough opening, any other type fits inside the opening. You must decide what type of jamb material is to be used before determining the rough opening for a garage door.

In my area, for 2 x 4 walls with 1/2" sheathing, a 2 x 6 is used for both side and head jambs. This allows SPF #2 lumber to be used and then wrapped with aluminum for a maintenance free finish. When held flush to the inside of the garage wall there will be 1 1/2" sticking past the door opening to butt the exterior finish against.

By the time the jamb is applied the garage door framing size should be the same as as the door. If the door is called a 16' x 7' then the opening should be that size.

All garage door headers should have double trimmers (cripples) due to their length and amount of weight bearing on them. Adding up the four trimmers and both side jambs plus the width of the door will give you the header length. For a 16' door the length would be 16' 9"s. The header height using this method is 1 1/2"s higher than the door, from the concrete floor.

I Copied this from a web site. Rough Opening for Garage Door

http://www.carpentry-pro-framer.com/garage-door-framing.html
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 25, 2015, 10:25:16 AM
Thank you Redoverfarm and garyc!

My next question for ya'll is this. I was going to use 6x6 treated post but some have said I can get away with 4x4's. It sure is a lot less expensive. I plan to use metal for the walls so I figure the weight of the wall won't be that much - not as much as if OSB and siding were going to be attached to the girts.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on June 29, 2015, 09:19:07 AM
Finally built some side walls to our loft inside the country plan house. We found 6' boards at lowes and they ran $1.20 each. I cut them to the 4' mark and spaced them using my level. Now we can be sure that nothing will fall from the loft to the floor below, it's over 9' to the floor below. Here's pics:

(3 pics coming soon)

(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20150627_194608_zps6lid1cdm.jpg)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20150627_194743_zpsk2ct7kwi.jpg)
(http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20150627_194656_zpslmncl9qi.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on August 18, 2015, 08:31:14 PM
Tuesday - August 18th, 2015

We want more land so we've decided to sell this 20x30 place. It sold pretty quick even though it wasn't totally finished on the inside. I learned very much from the project and I profited a little money from the sale but nothing spectacular.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on August 31, 2015, 12:03:14 AM
My country plan house is now being sold going through a real estate agent.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on November 16, 2015, 11:55:22 PM
My CountryPlan home has sold! I bought 5 acres of virgin forest land in Mounds, Oklahoma. I had to get a bulldozer to make my front yard. I brought in a 16 x 40 Derksen Building and am totally off the grid...oh what fun it is!

I got into solar and today was our first day of power!!!

I have 2 - 250 Watt Solar Panels and a 1600 Watt Wind Turbine. 8 6volt 225amp hour batteries to create a 24 Volt - 450 amp hour system. Solar is exciting!!!

I'll post pics very soon.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: Bob S. on November 17, 2015, 09:33:42 AM
nice to see you back [cool]
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: vickeyd on November 23, 2015, 01:33:35 AM
Ahh, the Derksen building. I know it well! Is yours barn style or gable roof? I'm interested in your cost for the solar set up you have. Do you mind sharing that info? And maybe some pics of what you've done in your Derksen building.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on November 30, 2015, 07:11:26 AM
The Thanksgiving Holidays were very rainy and it was hard to get anything done and go places outside. In fact, it's Monday and it's still raining...for the 5th day in a row! (It'll be nice to see the sun soon)

Here's some pics:

(4 pics coming soon)

Our Derksen Building (16x40): (http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20151003_122833_zpsvj37svmj.jpg)

Our Solar Power System: (http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/SolarSetUp_zpsapxkuigq.jpg)

Our Solar Panels: (http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/SolarPanelsRobin_zpskye1wggz.jpg)

Our Wind Turbine: (http://hockeya.com/14x24Pics/20151109_103100_zpsa6jxdz3u.jpg)
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on March 14, 2016, 06:09:49 PM
Well, it looks like I'm going to start my Number 2 CountryPlan house on my new 5 acres. I plan to build it with angle iron just like I did with my first countryplan house that I sold about 1/2 a year ago.

This time it'll be all solar and wind powered - totally off-grid. We are living off-grid right now in a 16x40 building that is powered by solar and wind, we also use a composit toilet. The house will be close to the building we live in now. I will be posting pics and videos just like I did before...ya'll be patient with me like ya always have been...thanks!
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: astidham on March 15, 2016, 08:52:48 AM
Good to see you back on cp Al.
cant wait to see what you come up with.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on March 15, 2016, 09:43:32 PM
Yes sir, it'll be a little smaller but pretty much the same style.
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on March 21, 2016, 10:02:09 AM
Monday - March 22nd, 2016

Started our new CountryPlan build (14x24), here's the link: http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=14300.0
Title: Re: Al and Robins 20x30 1 1/2 near Lake Eufaula, OK
Post by: ajbremer on November 13, 2017, 08:05:07 PM
Sorry about my pictures not showing up because of what photobucket.com did. I'm fixing the problem, it may take a little while though. Thanks for your patience.