Off-Grid Somewhere in Canada eh

Started by EcoHeliGuy, September 11, 2009, 01:03:55 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

EcoHeliGuy

So I still haven't found that piece of land yet, but I'm far enough in the design phase that I think Input will help.

The girlfriend and I are planing to build an off the grid solar passive home probably in BC's northern interior. There are some key fundamentals to this home. First It will be off the grid, after living on the east coast and knowing what mother nature is capable of. (The great ice storm of 1998 went with out power in the middle of winter for over a week. Hurricane Charlie, and Francis summer of 2004, I was at my grandparents place for the summer in South Daytona beach with out power a total of 16 days between the two storms). The there is no point in paying for heating, and killing or children with pollution when you don't have to, so our home will be mainly heated with passive solar design. Also there is no point in using energy to circulate the air in your house when simple design can be in place to do this naturally. I grew up as a healthy child, but in my late teens and early 20's I started getting allergies to a lot of common things, since I was 14 I have become allergic to cats, dogs, DEET, Shellfish (ate like crazy as a kid, being from the east coast, and now I'm highly allergic), Wheat, Aspartame, MSG, and so on. So we have decided to use as little chemical enriched products as possible in our home. The home will be earth bermed on the north and west sides. And last but not least we both love to be in the kitchen and we like to relax.

The following are pictures so far of my design (interior images are current and exterior have not been updated yet with new changes) Any input is greatly appreciated, a couple notes that aren't obvious on paper.

1) the out side walls on the north, west, and east side are cement block, the wall down the middle east to west, and the wall between bedroom and great room is also.

2) the root cellar has not been added yet, and belongs in the northeast corner on the north side of the house.

3) the floor is poured cement

4) all south facing windows are also doors to the future patio

5) there will be air passages in the floor along the north wall, and south wall, air ducts will run under the floor from north to south, and there will be air passages at the top of the middle wall between the north rooms and south rooms, as the south room warms, air will naturally circulate to the north rooms through the air vents in the wall, and the cold air will travel through the floor ducts back to the south room.




These have not been updated to show changes made internally




Lets see where I have gone wrong  ::)

       

todpod

Looks good to me.  Since your are going to be off grid have you considered a masonry heater, they burn clean use less wood and the masonry mass would help with the passive solar design.  I am hoping to build one of these in our house when we build it.

Here is a link   http://www.mha-net.org/


EcoHeliGuy

#2
Quote from: todpod on September 12, 2009, 04:43:23 PM
Looks good to me.  Since your are going to be off grid have you considered a masonry heater, they burn clean use less wood and the masonry mass would help with the passive solar design.  I am hoping to build one of these in our house when we build it.

Here is a link   http://www.mha-net.org/

We are looking into masonry stoves, the efficiency is what really interests us. But we would also like to use the stove for cooking and baking, so I found this model, somewhere online months ago I found where someone build a brick surround for this stove. so we are going to look into that option, not a true masonry stove, but it meets in the middle.

Vermont Bun Baker

Or

vermont masonry
and forgo the cooktop

glenn kangiser

Off grid in Northern Interior BC.  You get that much sun up there, eh? hmm

Do you get enough wind for that to be of assistance. 

Seems that far North that in the winter you may not have enough sun for much solar power?   I don't know - just asking.
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.

EcoHeliGuy

Quote from: glenn kangiser on September 13, 2009, 09:32:17 AM
Off grid in Northern Interior BC.  You get that much sun up there, eh? hmm

Do you get enough wind for that to be of assistance. 

Seems that far North that in the winter you may not have enough sun for much solar power?   I don't know - just asking.

I do have to be a lot more picky about location due to mountains, but there are a few off grid homes in the area, In fact the further north you go the more you find. Wind is definitely not much of an option, the yearly avg is 8mph, which does rise to 12 in the winter, I'm considering a wind turbine from TLG windpower products. The one bonus Is when I started looking into it, I was planing on having 1000-1200 watts in solar panel, and now for the same price I can go up to 2000 watts, which will help a lot. Either way we are going to have a propane genset, we both want a BnB cabin, and a woodworking shop, so we do need reliable power.

The area I'm looking is Smithers BC, if anyone wants to google earth that and check it out, you'll notice its farming country, in a valley, and the mountains ranges lay north to south, so in the winter at noon the sun will be in full force, its the evening and early morning sun thats the challenge.



Redoverfarm

EcoHeliGuy breifly looked over the FP.  Obviously you have thought this through fairly well.  I might make some suggestions concerning your doors both interior and exterior.  The door placement on the 3D & flat shows the door in a different location.  I assume you are attempting to make a "mud room" entry.  If at all possible I think a inswing would be better suited to eleminate exposure to the elements in this location as well as the back door.

The interior doors IMO should always open against the wall as to not restrict movement into a room.  This would be the room entry off the mud room, entry into the bedroom adjacent to the mud room and the bathroom entrydoor.  Most of the time just substitute a left hand swing for a right hand swing or Vice-versa.  If you can incorporate pocket doors in some area's that will give you more area within the room and entry into the room. I also think that the location for the Mdrm/bath will become somewhat  inconvient having to walk in closet to gain access to the Mbdrm bath. Maybe by swinging that bath to the end wall and creating two seperate doors(one swing for bath & one pocket for closet) might be an alternative.

Well that's my $.02 worth. 


EcoHeliGuy

Quote from: Redoverfarm on September 13, 2009, 12:56:47 PM
EcoHeliGuy breifly looked over the FP.  Obviously you have thought this through fairly well.  I might make some suggestions concerning your doors both interior and exterior.  The door placement on the 3D & flat shows the door in a different location.  I assume you are attempting to make a "mud room" entry.  If at all possible I think a inswing would be better suited to eleminate exposure to the elements in this location as well as the back door.

The interior doors IMO should always open against the wall as to not restrict movement into a room.  This would be the room entry off the mud room, entry into the bedroom adjacent to the mud room and the bathroom entrydoor.  Most of the time just substitute a left hand swing for a right hand swing or Vice-versa.  If you can incorporate pocket doors in some area's that will give you more area within the room and entry into the room. I also think that the location for the Mdrm/bath will become somewhat  inconvient having to walk in closet to gain access to the Mbdrm bath. Maybe by swinging that bath to the end wall and creating two seperate doors(one swing for bath & one pocket for closet) might be an alternative.

Well that's my $.02 worth. 



Thanks for the pointers.

Note sure how the mudroom door got turned around, it was an in-swing door a few days ago ???

I have not for the life of me been able to figure out how to get the door to swing left or right in this program, but I am aware of some of them swinging the wrong way.

The Master bedroom walk-in, and bathroom has been review by us lots, the reasoning being, we really like this layout. We want to be able to leave the shower and enter directly into our walk-in, and we wanted the sink to be on the out side of the bathroom, so its always free when someone is showering or testing out the low flow toilet  c*. As the girlfriend points out, there isn't anymore doors to go through, then a typical house with out a master bathroom.

MountainDon

Quote from: EcoHeliGuy on September 13, 2009, 10:58:25 AM
... so in the winter at noon the sun will be in full force, its the evening and early morning sun that's the challenge.


A quick look at some solar insolation maps indicates that at your latitude high noon may be about the only hour that actually generates much PV power. At least that's what see. You would simply need more PV panels, as well as more storage batteries than the average installation I'm familiar with, but then I'm in NM, where my worst day is as good as some folks best days.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.


EcoHeliGuy

Quote from: MountainDon on September 13, 2009, 06:54:23 PM
Quote from: EcoHeliGuy on September 13, 2009, 10:58:25 AM
... so in the winter at noon the sun will be in full force, its the evening and early morning sun that's the challenge.


A quick look at some solar insolation maps indicates that at your latitude high noon may be about the only hour that actually generates much PV power. At least that's what see. You would simply need more PV panels, as well as more storage batteries than the average installation I'm familiar with, but then I'm in NM, where my worst day is as good as some folks best days.

Thats my understanding too, but correct me if I'm wrong, but If say my house uses 4Kwh a day, wouldn't my battery bank be the same size? I would need 2000 watts in panels to make sure I charge in say two hours instead of 4 hours with 1000 watts, but my capacity wouldn't be any different?

MountainDon

Quote from: EcoHeliGuy on September 13, 2009, 07:04:46 PM
...but If say my house uses 4Kwh a day, wouldn't my battery bank be the same size? I would need 2000 watts in panels to make sure I charge in say two hours instead of 4 hours with 1000 watts, but my capacity wouldn't be any different?

Depends on how many cloudy days you need to store energy for. Here in NM we have more clear and partly clear days than many places. Other than that yes, the battery capacity does not change, except for temperature de-rating.

You may be aware, but I'll toss this in just in case as well as for others. Battery capacity is effectively reduced by cold weather. They are normally rated at 77 degrees F. If you can store the batteries saely in a heated room that will be a plus.

Also, if you need 4 KwH a day the batteries should be sized to have a nominal 16 KwH to keep the draw down to 25% maximum. Then multiply that by the number of cloudy days, usually three days is a good design base number. Those numbers also do not take into account battery self discharge and inverter losses/inefficiencies. As well there are losses through the charge controller and charging losses when taking the power from the PV panels to the batteries. Many times the system losses are the biggest single "user" of power.

I possible it would be good to talk to some of the owners of alternate energy systems in your area.

Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.

EcoHeliGuy

Quote from: MountainDon on September 13, 2009, 08:22:13 PM
Quote from: EcoHeliGuy on September 13, 2009, 07:04:46 PM
...but If say my house uses 4Kwh a day, wouldn't my battery bank be the same size? I would need 2000 watts in panels to make sure I charge in say two hours instead of 4 hours with 1000 watts, but my capacity wouldn't be any different?

Depends on how many cloudy days you need to store energy for. Here in NM we have more clear and partly clear days than many places. Other than that yes, the battery capacity does not change, except for temperature de-rating.

You may be aware, but I'll toss this in just in case as well as for others. Battery capacity is effectively reduced by cold weather. They are normally rated at 77 degrees F. If you can store the batteries saely in a heated room that will be a plus.

Also, if you need 4 KwH a day the batteries should be sized to have a nominal 16 KwH to keep the draw down to 25% maximum. Then multiply that by the number of cloudy days, usually three days is a good design base number. Those numbers also do not take into account battery self discharge and inverter losses/inefficiencies. As well there are losses through the charge controller and charging losses when taking the power from the PV panels to the batteries. Many times the system losses are the biggest single "user" of power.

I possible it would be good to talk to some of the owners of alternate energy systems in your area.



Thanks Don, the area I'm looking at gets alot of sun year round, I'm still planing for 5 days of power, due to me working 4 weeks on and 2 off, I need a system that just works for the lady when i'm not around, we are also going to have a Genset with an auto start.

I love your 25% idea, I didn't like the sound of 50%, and was thinking I would go 33% but what the h ::) ll, go 25% and work them that much less.

I'm planing to have the batterys inside, at my work we have these awsome flammable goods cabinets that you can link together and vent out side. I was going to use them.

Are you able to give me a rough avg of what the system losses tend to be? I was thinking I would plan panel-to-plug of about 15% loss

Of note on the batterys temps, working with helicopters in the high arctic I see what the temp effects are on batteries. down to about -10C we start plugging battery blankets in, and heating pads on all the oil tanks and gear boxes to keep the oils warm so that the starts are easyer. and then at -35C to -40C/-40F we take the batteries out and keep them in our rooms for the night (after -40 the majority of our helicopters can't fly due to the fuel jelling). we adjust the charge voltage depending on the outside air temp, above 32C we run 27volts, 0C-32C its 27.5 volts, and below 0C its 28volts (all on 24V concord AGM batterys). In a car engine you turn the starter until it ignites, which isn't that long, In a helicopter running a Turbine engine the starter is run during the whole start to Idel, this is the keep the engine ingesting air to align the flame and keep it from cutting the burner can. this means that your starter is powering two electric fuel pumps and a high amperage, high speed motor. for a good 30-50 seconds until the engine is running fast enough to self sustain. Our concord battery is a box with two small forklift or lawnmower type 12V batterys, tied in series. It will do three of these start attempts until the voltage drops from 25v to 19.5 volts and at that point you don't have enough power to start the engine with out burning it up. sometimes the battery is left on over night by mistake and the radios drain it, I have been able to get a 24v battery back from being drained to 6.5v, and passing a load test (and more importantly two start cycles in a row with the helicopter charging the battery between the starts)

MountainDon

Interesting info on the cold weather and helicopters. From growing up in Winnipeg and some winter mis-adventures in northern Manitoba I remember well how the deep freeze makes machinery cantankerous and storage batteries falter. I guess you also use synthetic oils?


On the DOD (Depth of Discharge). It's always best to be very conservative when designing the system. Power use always seems to grow over time. Right now with the new cabin system a short time it appears that we are skimming less than 4% of battery capacity over 24 hours. It'll take a longer period of time to see what it comes down to. I know we are at a low point right now. I tried to oversize as, like you stated, "I need a system that just works for the lady when I'm not around".


Overall efficiency when measured from the power going into the charge controller, through the batteries and then out through the inverter could be as low as 75 to 80%.

Flooded lead acid batteries themselves could have a loss of 5 to 10%; they are frequently the systems biggest "user" of power. Wouldn't it be nice if we could have efficient super-capacitors or something?

Inverter losses vary with load. They are less efficient under light load. The best my Outback is rated at is 92%. That is one good thing about having a stacked set of inverters. They can be programmed to power up the slave(s) as the demand increases.

The charging losses are greatest during the last 15% of the charge.
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=6059.msg98034#msg98034

As for the genset, keep in mind that inverters with pass through and battery chargers need to be large enough to supply the maximum demand of the charger section as well as supplying the power for the AC needs of the cabin/house all at the same time. You can program down the maximum power to be used by the charger but that prolongs charge time.

Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.

EcoHeliGuy

Thanks for the info on the Genset, sometimes you forget what you have already found, and thats one of them, I'm sure I would have remembered come time to buy one, but I hadn't thought about it in a while.

Coming from Winter-peg I bet you have seen pools of car exhaust in the morning? thats often a daily morning occurrence when i'm on the job. once the exhaust starts to move either up or sideways again, we then know its warmed up again (still -40). Ever see someone pour propane?  c*

Yes we use synthetic, but we do regardless of the weather, regular oil can't hold up to the pressure and heat of the turbine. with out coking up.

(luckily I want to live somewhere thats nice in the winter and -20 only happens acouple times  :))


MountainDon

Quote from: EcoHeliGuy on September 13, 2009, 10:10:43 PM
Yes we use synthetic, but we do regardless of the weather, regular oil can't hold up to the pressure and heat of the turbine. with out coking up.


I began using it way back then, as it allowed my Land Cruiser Diesel to start without being plugged in at -30 F.



OIt's nice when the temp never gets down to -20 C. We get that in the mountains here, but here in the lower elevation home that would be unusual.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.

Mike 870

As a general rule of thumb, for off grid, panel to plug you can take your array size and multiply it by .52.  I got that figure from the Northern Arizona Wind Sun forum guys.