Re: Concealed loft.

allanbrad · January 18, 2017, 02:38:37 PM

Hello Everybody, Spent some time looking for a lot in western NY and came across few limitations. Finding a lot is not a problem, taxes in the area are just bloody murder, no wonder so much land is for sale. Intention is is to build an extended basic cabin with loft, 40X20 takes me to 800, plus loft and I am @ 1200 square feet, not good for taxes, loft is absolutely required, large living room is a must too. Here are few practical questions:
a) Township will include loft into overall footage: How to conceal my loft "intentions"? Removable ladder does not work, planning to approve and then finish loft, what is the easiest strategy?
b) Township building officer refers to the county on water and septic requirements: how does that work? Redundant Permits and Inspections?

EDITED, to change subject word "lot" to "loft" for clearer meaning. MD

MountainDon · January 18, 2017, 03:45:30 PM

(b) where I am septic permits are handled by the county or local government agency, using rules developed by the state. Well permits are issued by the state in areas that have no local water utility. The township, village whatever adds nothing to those permit fees, but of course has fees for building permits that cover the structure

January 18, 2017, 07:17:28 PM

Quote from: allanbrad on January 18, 2017, 02:38:37 PM
Hello Everybody, Spent some time looking for a lot in western NY and came across few limitations. Finding a lot is not a problem, taxes in the area are just bloody murder, no wonder so much land is for sale. Intention is is to build an extended basic cabin with loft, 40X20 takes me to 800, plus loft and I am @ 1200 square feet, not good for taxes, loft is absolutely required, large living room is a must too. Here are few practical questions:
a) Township will include loft into overall footage: How to conceal my loft "intentions"? Removable ladder does not work, planning to approve and then finish loft, what is the easiest strategy?

EDITED, to change subject word "lot" to "loft" for clearer meaning. MD

Depending on your design it may not fall under code as living space but maybe storage. It has to have a certain ceiling height for a % of the room. Maybe some research into the articles of this thread may help.

http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=14309.msg186772#msg186772

Adam Roby · January 18, 2017, 07:38:07 PM

Maybe you can put in some beams every 4' and tell them its a "exposed timber frame look" you are going for, and once approved you add the floor on top of that?

Don_P · January 18, 2017, 08:40:59 PM

That... is an excellent idea.

January 18, 2017, 09:08:53 PM

Good idea Adam. I couldn't come up with anything

NathanS · January 18, 2017, 09:18:47 PM

That is a really smart idea.

Be careful with septic in NYS. Statewide, a building permit is not issued until you have stamped engineered septic system plans.

The limiting factor will usually be how deep your soil is free draining. If you hit an impervious layer before 2' then you have to jump through a lot of hoops, and it aint cheap. I didn't go through it, but my septic engineer said that if he has to design a raised mound (considered non-standard in NYS) in the counties around here it can take a long time for the county planning department to approve those systems. And it kind of sounded like it's not a given they would.

4' of free draining soil is the cheapest system. If you have less than 4', it has to be built up to that depth. If you have non-wooded land, a dozer can just push dirt around. Otherwise you gotta bring it in.

There is a NYS septic handbook that explains the basic leach field systems, and how to perc test. You have to pay an engineer to do the official test (my township will actually allow a town guy to do it), but if you're interested in land, before you go through the paper work of making a contingent offer, you could dig some holes and do the perc test yourself. They are easy to do.

azgreg · January 18, 2017, 09:32:13 PM

Quote from: Don_P on January 18, 2017, 08:40:59 PM
That... is an excellent idea.

Yep.....unless the inspector is a member of this forum.

Don_P · January 18, 2017, 09:49:22 PM

Even then, he inspects what is there, he doesn't get to speculate. Technically if I label a loft storage, it is storage. If I label it bedroom, it is a bedroom. If it doesn't meet the criteria for a habitable space I cannot label it bedroom. If I label it storage and it meets habitable requirements he is going to lean on me, but that is all he can do. I almost always see it his way but that is a choice.
Setting it up with beams all the way down the length of the building that are sized for floor load opens up all kinds of potential.

January 19, 2017, 09:40:25 AM

WOW!

cbc58 · January 26, 2017, 09:03:11 AM

My guess is that with the loft idea - you would need to show a dedicated sleeping space on the 1st floor. taxes are one of our major concerns also - absolutely ridiculous where we are in NH. I was thinking about ways to avoid/reduce taxes and have considered a bed platform that drops down from above - kind of like in the movie Frankenstein - on counterweights. That or a fold down or recessed bed like shown in John's solar saltbox plans. They want to tax every square inch where I am and don't care about the cost to build - it's market value they go after.

BenSimpson · January 27, 2017, 06:00:33 PM

First post lurker here

I'm thinking the same way because I'm planning on building in CT using a single floor plan made from a modified universal cottage plans.
I started to wonder if a combination of scissor and attic trusses would be good for a "unfinished" attic that could be used as a loft. It would of course lose some sq/feet because I'm not sure how wide they can make attic space on a 20ft attic truss. (i have seen 15" of floor width for 24' attic truss)

i really like the idea of beams every 4' with the ability to put a loft area floor on it.

Don_P · January 27, 2017, 10:14:28 PM

If the overhang is 2' on each side and the attic truss top chord rises from that point rather than the wall line, then it is 24' wide.

bayview · January 28, 2017, 03:02:55 PM

Here you go! Don't build up . . . Build down. That would fool the inspector!

/.

SouthernTier · February 16, 2017, 01:26:00 PM

Quote from: allanbrad on January 18, 2017, 02:38:37 PM
Hello Everybody, Spent some time looking for a lot in western NY and came across few limitations. Finding a lot is not a problem, taxes in the area are just bloody murder, no wonder so much land is for sale. Intention is is to build an extended basic cabin with loft, 40X20 takes me to 800, plus loft and I am @ 1200 square feet, not good for taxes, loft is absolutely required, large living room is a must too. Here are few practical questions:
a) Township will include loft into overall footage: How to conceal my loft "intentions"? Removable ladder does not work, planning to approve and then finish loft, what is the easiest strategy?
b) Township building officer refers to the county on water and septic requirements: how does that work? Redundant Permits and Inspections?

Quote from: NathanS on January 18, 2017, 09:18:47 PM
That is a really smart idea.

Be careful with septic in NYS. Statewide, a building permit is not issued until you have stamped engineered septic system plans.

The limiting factor will usually be how deep your soil is free draining. If you hit an impervious layer before 2' then you have to jump through a lot of hoops, and it aint cheap. I didn't go through it, but my septic engineer said that if he has to design a raised mound (considered non-standard in NYS) in the counties around here it can take a long time for the county planning department to approve those systems. And it kind of sounded like it's not a given they would.

4' of free draining soil is the cheapest system. If you have less than 4', it has to be built up to that depth. If you have non-wooded land, a dozer can just push dirt around. Otherwise you gotta bring it in.

There is a NYS septic handbook that explains the basic leach field systems, and how to perc test. You have to pay an engineer to do the official test (my township will actually allow a town guy to do it), but if you're interested in land, before you go through the paper work of making a contingent offer, you could dig some holes and do the perc test yourself. They are easy to do.

It varies by county. Which WNY county are you looking at? My lot is in Cattaraugus. In Cattaraugus, the County Health department actually does the design for you. Good because you don't need your own PE to stamp it, bad because you don't have the opportunity to perhaps recommend something cheaper.

With the till, one almost always needs to do a sand filter system which is expensive. Another guy here no the forum (jbos333) in Cattaraugus was lucky. He hit a gravel vein under the clay so he just needed a minimal system. But that is the exception. Other folks I know who have built in CattCo needed the expensive sand filter. When I informally talked to the health department guy several years ago, he said that would probably be what I needed (knowing where my lot is).

Here's some comments of mine (and a link to my design changes) to make my loft to code for floor space and ceiling height: http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=14309.msg186780#msg186780