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Off Topic => Off Topic - Ideas, humor, inspiration => Topic started by: rick91351 on June 27, 2011, 05:36:20 PM

Title: Homestead Mini-Orchard
Post by: rick91351 on June 27, 2011, 05:36:20 PM
Last year I posted a few pictures of a orchard we put in up at our place.  Several people PMed and others posted showing an interest in growing fruit trees at their cabins.  This sparked this homestead mini-orchard experiment.  Comments ran from if things get tough and we have to move to the cabin a few fruit trees would sure be nice to have.  (I can not agree more.)  Some people really wanted to homestead but certainly did not want to invest as we have and I can certainly understand that.  Yet it takes time to grow a tree.  If you wait until times are bad they really are not going to help you a heck of a lot.

The orchard below has required a huge outlay of time, money, and materials.  And a heck of a lot of learning.  An orchard such as this needs an eight foot fence to keep the deer and elk out.  No guarantee on bears and humans while you are gone.  It takes some research as to root stocks that will work where you are located and verities. 

Besides the cost of the fruit trees and shipping.  Our orchard has corner posts, brace posts and gate posts that are pressure treated 8X8's 11'.  Wooden line posts are pressure treated 6X6's 11'  The posts go down a minimum of two and a half feet to three foot.  Tee posts are 10 foot that they make for orchards.  The wire we used was 4' field fence, some we had, some was given to us, and some of course we had to buy.  Being so we had to go two runs high to make the 8' it was double or triple the work.  Stretching field fence or netting wire is easy if you have done it a lot and know how it is going to act and react. But adding another dimension of an additional four feet and ladder time wow it turned into another world.  When we were done and the trees were planted and are now getting established, I must say it is one of the most rewarding things we have done.

(https://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt15/rick91351/P9250208.jpg)

So I got to wondering what I would do if I just want to plant a few fruit trees.  (A mini-orchard if you will)  So I ordered this year eight extra trees.  (I hope this was our last order.)  Four extra pears and four extra peaches to do an experiment with.  I wanted to see if I could make a mini orchard that would not require a huge out lay and use stuff we had around.  Or stuff that will not break the bank and should be available everywhere.

I first came up with this idea because it was quick and they turned the cows into where my experiment was going to be done.  Basically three tee posts, some old tree stakes a bunch of rebar tie wire and just wrapped barb wire around the tee posts.  Not really pretty but it did work very well.  The cattle actually left it alone very well.  I took it down after the cattle had been in there over a month and the tree looked good.  Two were left unprotected.  They suffered bad damage and most likely will not recover.       

(https://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt15/rick91351/Mini-orchard/P6190517.jpg)

Next I found a few 6 inch eight foot posts and some field fence that was used but reusable.  I sort of knew where this experiment was going to go but trying to be cheep and fair....  I measured 5' 6" from the base of the tree and dug a post hole and set the first post.  Then measured ten foot in a triangle.   I dug and set those posts.  I used the old wire and did not really stretch it tight because I just wanted to see what it might look with someone with just fencing 101 at best.  The wire did exactly as I knew it would it pulled the posts all out of alignment.  So I found some boards at a very good price at the local sawmill.  Returned and straightened the posts up and nailed on the boards.

(https://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt15/rick91351/Mini-orchard/P6190519.jpg)

Then the rest of the experiment was more the way it should be.  With this design using semi-dwarf trees, is six foot tall and with the ten foot board and post spacing I think they will mature there very safely.  Fourteen or sixteen feet would be better but in the interest of space and cabin lots I thought the ten foot would work good.  Eight foot posts allows with a two foot hole allows six foot in the air.  I really doubt that a deer would attempt to jump over something such as that.  I do need to now design a gate or passage way inside as you do need to still get in there and prune, train, fertilize, and we do use root guards on the winter time and remove them in the spring.  Fruit trees do need about five gallons of water per week if there has not be sufficient rain.  This would have to be carried in or if you have a hose and pressure cuts down on the in and out.   

(https://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt15/rick91351/Mini-orchard/P6190526.jpg)

This is from the shop down to where our someday house or cabin or small cottage will be built, if we can ever figure that out and get started.

(https://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt15/rick91351/Mini-orchard/010.jpg)

Mini-orchard going up to the big orchard.

(https://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt15/rick91351/Mini-orchard/016.jpg)

If you have any ideas or improvements let me know and I will see if I can work them in.  This is sort of an experiment for all of us that might want to grow a few fruit trees.  I am just seeing it as one person.  I do know I need to provide an access point.  But right now the cattle and the deer are fenced out.  That is most important!

Wow I am starting to feel a little like Johnny Appleseed  :)       

                     










 
Title: Re: Homestead Mini-Orchard
Post by: Ajax on June 28, 2011, 11:07:55 AM
(https://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt15/rick91351/Mini-orchard/010.jpg)

Your backyard is a little more scenic then mine
   








Title: Re: Homestead Mini-Orchard
Post by: OlJarhead on June 28, 2011, 01:27:41 PM
I'm looking at doing something similar and have planted 7 Red Oaks along the North West side of where I want to put the Fruit Trees.  I hope to have the site prepped before Fall so I can do a fall planting.

My plan is to fence in a dozen trees or so, and provide them water.  I plan to use 6 foot fences to start (for deer) with horse fence and barbed wire.  I'll have to put in some heavy posts to stop the cows probably -- and then some electric fencing outside of that.

With luck, in a few years we will have a small crop :)
Title: Re: Homestead Mini-Orchard
Post by: Sassy on June 28, 2011, 03:12:41 PM
We have around 30 fruit trees, 6 trees close by the house (peach, 2 apricot, pluot, fig & walnut) and then Glenn made 2 long terraces below the house w/all kinds of fruit & 2 walnuts.  Our 3 pomegranate trees started producing the 1st year they were planted.  Glenn puts up white plastic twine (actually thicker than twine) at around 7 ft high & criss-crosses it & lets it hang down to form "gates" which fools the deer.  We also have lots of barbed wire fencing now to keep the cows in so I think that deters the deer even though they were eating my strawberry plants that are on the roof of part of the shop  >:(

Nice job on your orchard!  Looking forward to seeing how your individual trees for the smaller planting does.  You've done a lot of work.  Bet you are anxious to get to building your cabin & being able to stay up there.
Title: Re: Homestead Mini-Orchard
Post by: rick91351 on June 29, 2011, 07:30:55 AM
Quote from: OlJarhead on June 28, 2011, 01:27:41 PM
I'm looking at doing something similar and have planted 7 Red Oaks along the North West side of where I want to put the Fruit Trees.  I hope to have the site prepped before Fall so I can do a fall planting.

My plan is to fence in a dozen trees or so, and provide them water.  I plan to use 6 foot fences to start (for deer) with horse fence and barbed wire.  I'll have to put in some heavy posts to stop the cows probably -- and then some electric fencing outside of that.

With luck, in a few years we will have a small crop :)

If you are planing a orchard planting where deer can jump the fence, figure eight foot.  You can do six but run an additional two foot higher some how.  As Sassy says Glenn has had luck with heavy twine.  This seem to work.  We put in a blue berry plot of 100 blue berry bushes and a 6 foot fence and as I have stated somewhere I never knew they had tape measures because they leap the six foot fence.  I am going to have to try Glenns approach there.  I am going to have to on my wood posts nail on some raisers and staple on some heavy twine to fool them.

Fall plantings work well in some cases and we have wanted to do some of that.  But the nurseries we have bought from will not ship then.  As of late we get all our trees bare root from Adams County Nursery http://www.acnursery.com/       

As far as apples just passing this on - EMLA 7 and EMLA 111 rootstocks work well up there.  We pretty much will not plant anything not anchored to them.  And I would think they would as well up there in the Okanogan Country as well.  That would be a start, however I do not know anything about your soil.  Root stock was a key in finding apples that would grow well.  For your area find a couple verities that bloom mid-season to late because of frosts.  A crab apple in some cases works well for a pollinator so I have read.

Sweet cherries - let someone else do those and save your money.  We have tried and tried and none are hearty enough to find two to cross pollinate.  Montmorency pie cherries are very hearty and pollinate themselves. 

There are a few real hearty peaches, and the pears we have tried.  The orchard and nursery people up there in the Okanogan Country would most likely steer you well.  We did not have that luxury here, everyone we talked to was tuned into the Boise Valley.  Not short growing seasons and 5000' and lots of snow.  Lots of snow helps protect the roots by the way, or so I understand. 

There is another thing we did last year and this year as well.  Around the inside of the orchard fence we planted raspberries and blackberries.  We will use wooden  fence posts and wire to trellis too.  More trying to just see what we can do with what we have and how we can stretch it out to get the maximum usage.  If we move up there full time my wife wants to run some chickens in the orchard as well.  This would certainly keep the bugs down but it might keep the red tailed hawks fat.   >:(       
         



Title: Re: Homestead Mini-Orchard
Post by: OlJarhead on June 30, 2011, 05:37:35 PM
Thanks.

I found a place to get pretty much any apple with Russian rootstock Antonovka and they list them by type of apple and various other features (when they bloom, hardiness etc). so I pan to go that route with Apples.

I also want to plant various berries but all of it will have to wait until I have time! 

Time is my biggest issue!  I just can't seem to find enough of it.

Speaking of fence height, I believe my parents found that a 6 foot fence will work provided there is no room between it that the deer can jump into. Meaning that they put the fence close to the tree but far enough away that you can't reach the branches by putting front hooves on the fence and then eating.  So basically a channel of fence on either side of the row of trees with no room in the middle for the deer to jump into.

I'll have to double check but it seems that deters them from jumping the fence because perhaps, it confuses them.
Title: Re: Homestead Mini-Orchard
Post by: MushCreek on July 02, 2011, 12:47:24 PM
I like your triangular corrals. I don't think deer will jump into something that small- there's no where to land. I've also heard that either a double fence, or one that slopes outward will stop them because they're afraid of the distance rather than the height. Of course, if you neglect to explain these 'rules' to the deer, they may go ahead and jump in anyway! I was planning to grow my blueberries between two 6' fences to discourage deer, and then it will support netting to keep the birds out when the berries ripen
Title: Re: Homestead Mini-Orchard
Post by: rick91351 on July 02, 2011, 04:06:56 PM
Quote from: MushCreek on July 02, 2011, 12:47:24 PM
I like your triangular corrals. I don't think deer will jump into something that small- there's no where to land. I've also heard that either a double fence, or one that slopes outward will stop them because they're afraid of the distance rather than the height. Of course, if you neglect to explain these 'rules' to the deer, they may go ahead and jump in anyway! I was planning to grow my blueberries between two 6' fences to discourage deer, and then it will support netting to keep the birds out when the berries ripen

I like your idea of the six foot fences in the blue berries.  Our soil very clay based so it is not the best for blueberries, we are having to add a lot of sulfur and humas to get them to do anything.  I am wondering if it was a good idea to try that venture.  But then on the other side of the coin, it is to late we have like 100 plants in.  So we have to give it our best shot.      

When I was a kid there were a lot of these small homesteads that were scattered around the country.  Many raised a few fruit trees and I can remember something like those triangle corrals back then.  They seemed to be more in the 14' 16' foot range however.  That would require another post per side but they were also corralling full sized fruit trees. The triangle shapes sure take a lot less materials.

One reason I went that way was most of the stuff could be sawed with a chain saw mill out of stuff on the ground, or a person might just have enough 6" stuff laying around or might find some thing here and there.  The 10 foot 6 inch stuff like I say I found over at the local sawmill in a mix of pine and fir.  The owner gave me a heck of a deal on them.  Another reason I decided to do the 10 foot triangles was in a homestead setting this would allow a little more foraging for the farm animals and not corralling them out of a large area.  The reason for growing soft fruit in those 10 foot triangles rather than apples was from what I have noted; the deer are not really drawn to the fruit trees until the fruit starts ripening in the fall.  The soft fruit is off and gone way before the apples start.  (Other than pears.)  Four of these are pear trees so we will have to wait and see if they are drawn to pears as they are apples.        

The double fences work well from what I have read.  But I hate digging that many post holes if I can get away from it.  (I am sixty this year and was raised on farms and have been around ranches and livestock all my life.)  Got any idea how many post holes I have dug by hand?  Wonder if it is like a whole basement of post holes....  

The Idaho Fish and Game at one time suggested two fences.  This is still on the books as far as I can tell.   The outside fence tilted out at about like 75 degrees.  (The outside fence could be a four foot fence.)  The inside fence was six foot.  You guyed the tilted out four foot fence to the six foot inside fence.  No thanks.  Their next suggestion was the simple 8 foot fence.  The main thing I wanted to do there was to go with what the Fish and Game wanted or required.  We have never found a deer track in the orchard.....  And I sort of figure that is what the Fish and Game is good at, knowing the behavior of deer and elk.

Quote from: OlJarhead on June 30, 2011, 05:37:35 PM
Thanks.

I found a place to get pretty much any apple with Russian rootstock Antonovka and they list them by type of apple and various other features (when they bloom, hardiness etc). so I pan to go that route with Apples.



I did find this for your info... a little cut and paste from Garden Web.....  At any rate thanks for your post and will keep that in my memory bank and might ever try a few.  

Antonovka is not (at least at this point) a single cultivar but rather a collection of related types, sometimes even including seedlings. Most are produced vegetatively, but to identify a specific cultivar, you'd have to have a more specific name. Examples of Antonovka cultivars include 'Antonovka Kamenichka', 'Antonovka Obyknovennaja', 'Antonovka Polutorafuntonaja', and 'Antonovka Zheltinaja'.

Antonovka is my favorite apple, but I am from Eastern Europe and Antonovaka is VERY popular apple there. When fully ripe it is good for fresh eating and axel is right that it is very good for processing. In fact I believe that apple pie with Antonovka is far superior to any other. It has a very special flavor and certain acidity that compliments sweetness. When not fully ripe it can be sour, it has to be yellow, not green for fresh eating.  I never tried to grow it here in MD climate, but I did grow many of them in the past and I miss them a lot. To me Antonovka is the simbol of good apple.
Olga


Like Olga, i am from Eastern Europe where Antonavka is considered as one of great apples. Smell of ripe Antonovka fruits in October is unforgatable.
But i have tried here an apple from a tree that was supposed to be a rootstock and i did not like it. Possible cultivar of that rootstock was not the same as we had in Eastern Europe.
Title: Re: Homestead Mini-Orchard
Post by: MushCreek on July 03, 2011, 04:46:25 PM
It depends on the local deer. My nephew in upstate NY put up 8', and the deer got in! He had to add another 4'. BIG deer up that way.
Title: Re: Homestead Mini-Orchard
Post by: rick91351 on July 03, 2011, 07:26:45 PM
Quote from: MushCreek on July 03, 2011, 04:46:25 PM
It depends on the local deer. My nephew in upstate NY put up 8', and the deer got in! He had to add another 4'. BIG deer up that way.

That is why I followed the Idaho Fish and Games instructions to a Tee!  One phone call - one shot. ;)
Title: Re: Homestead Mini-Orchard
Post by: OlJarhead on July 10, 2011, 11:53:25 AM
http://www.sln.potsdam.ny.us/apples.html
That's the site I found.

$150 for ten trees and I'm thinking of doing 20 trees for $300 if the well goes in as planned and produces at least enough water to provide 5 gals a week per tree :)

I plan on putting a solar panel and timer on the well and having it pump directly off the panel (and controller) with timed pumping to provide the right amount of water each week.

I also plan on putting in at least 4-6 more red oaks (if they survive the transplanting which I'm hopeful they will!) as well as some maples.

Though our maples are silver maples it sounds like they would be fine for producing syrup and I'll try to find sugar maples too but we have silver saplings growing from seeds dropped from our own trees -- so free! :)  Love that.
Title: Re: Homestead Mini-Orchard
Post by: rick91351 on July 10, 2011, 01:35:44 PM
Thanks, I did find that nursery before.  I never have contacted them but would be interested in a planting of old world apples I think.  Ma Ellen most likely would kill me. ;)

Wow!!  Twenty if well taken care of would really be a lot.  Plenty for juicing, canning, and drying.  Or most people's favorite just eating.  They could certainly be given or bartered away as well.  I would love to set up a stand or just out of the back of the pick up, and sell to hunters and fisherman as well as tourists who are looking at the fall foliage.  Lots of time for that, as this is the first year that we are letting some of our trees produce.     

They like most produce are best when homegrown, and picked just at that peak.  At least you get to control that aspect not some commercial growers governed by a head office...Well never mind that... whole other story.  Also some of the verities they breed for longer storage life, this seems to be detrimental as it is in tomatoes and peppers.  They seem content sacrificing taste and aroma for storage and shelf life.  :(   

I do want to plant some maples up there.  Oaks with our short growing season unless they were free are sort of a chance.  Does any one have a lead on sugar maples?  I know try the internet...       
Title: Re: Homestead Mini-Orchard
Post by: OlJarhead on July 10, 2011, 07:52:11 PM
Quote from: rick91351 on July 10, 2011, 01:35:44 PM
Thanks, I did find that nursery before.  I never have contacted them but would be interested in a planting of old world apples I think.  Ma Ellen most likely would kill me. ;)

Wow!!  Twenty if well taken care of would really be a lot.  Plenty for juicing, canning, and drying.  Or most people's favorite just eating.  They could certainly be given or bartered away as well.  I would love to set up a stand or just out of the back of the pick up, and sell to hunters and fisherman as well as tourists who are looking at the fall foliage.  Lots of time for that, as this is the first year that we are letting some of our trees produce.     

They like most produce are best when homegrown, and picked just at that peak.  At least you get to control that aspect not some commercial growers governed by a head office...Well never mind that... whole other story.  Also some of the verities they breed for longer storage life, this seems to be detrimental as it is in tomatoes and peppers.  They seem content sacrificing taste and aroma for storage and shelf life.  :(   

I do want to plant some maples up there.  Oaks with our short growing season unless they were free are sort of a chance.  Does any one have a lead on sugar maples?  I know try the internet...       

Hard to say how many I'd get and I have come to my senses and decided NOT to get 20 apples!  *chuckle* I tend to get over zealous sometimes!  I'll likely get 5-10 and make them a mix that gives early to late season production as well as some long lasting stuff for the root cellar :)  And I'll add several other fruit trees and nut trees.

I figure what we don't eat the deer, bears, turkey etc can have ;)
Title: Re: Homestead Mini-Orchard
Post by: OlJarhead on July 12, 2011, 01:19:39 PM
St Lawrence Nursery's have Silver and Sugar Maples and show Silver Maples as excellent sap for Syrup! :D  That's AWESOME since I think it is what I have now.

Their saplings are nicely priced too at $6.50 ea.

Title: Re: Homestead Mini-Orchard
Post by: OlJarhead on July 12, 2011, 01:20:41 PM
I should add that I've smacked myself around a little, talked to my bro and came back to my senses!  I am looking at 3-4 apples now *whiles brow* as 10-20 would just be way too many....but was so tempting!
Title: Re: Homestead Mini-Orchard
Post by: rick91351 on June 23, 2012, 02:39:08 AM
The cattle have been in where my mini orchard is no for almost a month.

This peach tree last year I did not protect from the cattle as a test to prove the damage they occur by not protecting them.  It was quite dead.  I build the enclose around it last year and by fall it had new growth above the bud union so we protected it.  This year it has grown this much.  The dead tree is from last years experiment.

(https://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt15/rick91351/Mini-orchard/P6140128.jpg)

This is a nice pear tree starting to build growth and has not had any problems in the enclosure.  Myself; I still need to build into them a door way or way to enter them a couple times a year for pruning, fertilizing and attaching and removing the rodent guard. 

(https://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt15/rick91351/Mini-orchard/P6140127.jpg)   


I am trying two new to me ideas.  And they seem to be working well.  One uses concrete reinforcing wire, and three steel tee posts.  Set the wire over the tree, mark where you want the inside tee post to go.  Then mark the other two.  This way you can unwire the reinforcing wire from the tee posts and side it back if you need to. 

This is around and American Chestnut.

(https://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt15/rick91351/Mini-orchard/P6140124.jpg)

This is how it looks pulled up and wired off.  It has worked.  However if you had a couple range type bulls started fighting around them I doubt they would fair very well...

(https://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt15/rick91351/Mini-orchard/P6140126.jpg)

This works as a understanding it is easier to keep critters out than in.  I built this fence out of mostly used recycled stuff we have stockpiled for a rainy day.  It has worked well.  This has Balli Cherries, and grapes and a bee hive.  The boards are just 1 bys.

(https://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt15/rick91351/Mini-orchard/P6140130.jpg)   

Title: Re: Homestead Mini-Orchard
Post by: rick91351 on May 29, 2013, 02:49:57 AM
After having almost given up on peach trees I have found two that seem to work in our climate here in Idaho.

This is a photo of the same little tree we experimented with and the cows and I wrote it off as a loss.  It snapped back the new growth is all above the union. 

(https://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt15/rick91351/DSCN0167_zpsbf89ec15.jpg) (https://s593.photobucket.com/user/rick91351/media/DSCN0167_zpsbf89ec15.jpg.html) 

The pears are also doing well in the three cornered cages.....

(https://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt15/rick91351/DSCN0165_zps40d7790d.jpg) (https://s593.photobucket.com/user/rick91351/media/DSCN0165_zps40d7790d.jpg.html)

My plantings in the round cages made of concrete reinforcing wire seem to be working well.  Last years planting of Bali Cherries wintered very well. 

Last winter was very hard and they all 'rode it out' well!!

(https://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt15/rick91351/DSCN0162_zps620dad1f.jpg) (https://s593.photobucket.com/user/rick91351/media/DSCN0162_zps620dad1f.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Homestead Mini-Orchard
Post by: OlJarhead on May 29, 2013, 08:22:49 AM
Good to hear!  Ours are doing well also.  Where did you get the peaches?  What kind?  I'm looking for a peach that will do well in our area also.
Title: Re: Homestead Mini-Orchard
Post by: rick91351 on May 29, 2013, 12:28:39 PM
Quote from: OlJarhead on May 29, 2013, 08:22:49 AM
Good to hear!  Ours are doing well also.  Where did you get the peaches?  What kind?  I'm looking for a peach that will do well in our area also.

Those peaches are from Adams County Nursery.  We tried and failed so many times.  They finely suggested Canadian Harmony and Reliance.  Great sales people to work with.

After all our loses they are our last hope and after two hard winters with lots of cold and little snow I see very little cold weather damage.  Reliance is a 9 out of 9 on cold hardy.  Canadian Harmony is a 8.  They bloomed and froze this year as well.  It just got too nice too early up here.     
Title: Re: Homestead Mini-Orchard
Post by: rick91351 on June 24, 2013, 09:06:47 PM
I was watering in the mini orchard today found that one of the peach blossoms pollinated.   [cool]

Tree is way to young to produce so I pinched it.   :(

(https://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt15/rick91351/Mini-orchard/DSCN0232_zps106bea91.jpg) (https://s593.photobucket.com/user/rick91351/media/Mini-orchard/DSCN0232_zps106bea91.jpg.html)

I really think these two verities are going to work up here; but the question will be are they eatable? 
Title: Re: Homestead Mini-Orchard
Post by: rick91351 on July 27, 2013, 01:51:35 PM
Thanks for your interest in the the mini orchard.  It is an experiment for cabin owners or small homestead / farmstead owner operators that might not have the means to erect a eight foot deer fence around a larger plot. 

Our main orchard here is also posted on Country Plans and how we have worked it over the several years it has been in.  It also discusses the problems with blue berries.  I also try to encourage people not to run out and buy trees that the root stocks might not work.  Here your fore-mentioned $10 to $15 trees do not work unless they are on EMLA 7 root stock.  Then recently Jarhead another member here guided me to another nursery.  We have planted for the last two years some of their super cold hardy apples.  Some of their cold hardy crab apples.

We went through several hundred dollars worth of nectarines and several hundred dollars worth of peaches to find the grouping that we now use.  They are still young juvenal trees so I can not expect to much out of them.  The big question is are they going to produce a usable eatable peach?  You mention about dwarf trees.  Here they are a waste of money, time and orchard space.  They will not produce, they will not fill out.  They are just a tree in the orchard.  We have tried them before I really decided to make a study and an education out of cold hardy, higher altitude fruit trees.  We are mid range here at 5000 ft.  The USDA zone maps here is about as useful as the Holy Bible in a Mosque.  Or a Koran in a meeting of Independent Baptists.  Either way it is just going to get you in trouble.                   

http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=11346.msg145745#msg145745

As far as drip lines and such the only way I would suggest them being used especially on fruit trees if you are unable to water them once a week.  Fruit trees until they are producing good only require five gallons of water per week.  Unless UNLESS it is extremely hot and windy then I do bump it up to ten gallons per week five gallon and then three or four days latter another five gallons.  Just common sense....

The only time I will admit drip lines are good is if your cabin plot is a far distance and you can not attend to them on a regular weekly bases.  Why you might ask?  Drip lines used on trees do not encourage deep anchoring root growth.  Reason number two it is hard too judge how much you are watering and if it is going to be stable.  Plaque, scale and sand tend to clog up your drip lines over time.  So what you set in June very well might not be what is being delivered in August .  Drip line however are my favorite on our 100 and some feet of raspberries. 

As far as your warning about bees and systemics ..... The jury is still out on bees and systemics as far as I am concerned.  I do not use systemics however but there is no real evidence as to CCD or Collapsed Colony Disorder and systemics.  When we had our place in town I / we had close to 75 English Roses.  I poured the systemics to them.  Then I / we went organic.  We did see a raise in beneficial insects but also seen a huge increase in Rose Bores.  So I scaled back on the amount of systemics and were sort of able to keep the rose bores in check without killing of the beneficial insects.  Now get a hold of your key board but I myself I would like to see them start spraying again with 24D.  Not wholesale as they did but target areas of infestation of pine beetles and bores with better timing and pin pointing areas.  Also where winds carry the bores and beetles.  My bee guru buddy has a lot more hives than I.  I have known him 35 years and he always has had hives.  He has some up here right now.  I value his opinion without measure on the bees.  He blames CCD on GMOs and the bees not being able to digest GMO pollen and nectar.  I ask for proof and he has none.  The closest I can arrive at with CCD is the tiny Vampire Mite or Varroa Mite.  But that is a gut feeling not based on science.  Just as my bee guru buddy and his conclusion. 

Your suggestion on clover and worms is very beneficial I agree.  However that is not a one size fits all thing...  We could plant clover till the cows come home and with our harsh conditions up here would be a waste of time and money.  Typically our growing season starts up here last of April for hardy grasses and cold crops, our last bad frost here is however usually last of May.  The first part of June this year we had one night down in the low twenties.  Rare but it was there and the orchard was in bloom and we still had some  blossoms survive!!!  Our growing season goes to the first hard frost of September or October.  That is great!  I agree however but we do not receive any rain here from early July to the fall rains of  late September or October.  This year is the tenth driest in history a whopping 4.46 inches of  moisture in Boise, Idaho.  Up here in the mountains above Boise we start our measurement in October  our usual high 20 some inches  is high 13 low 14 inches this year.  So worms and clover fixes just do not work up here.  The worms go very deep in these dry times.  Clover and 'green manure' inputs here work but very limited in scope.  You also need a plot to do them in.  We are okay that direction but most people up here with small five acre acreages are on a hill side and no place to plant and no water to irrigate.   This year our irrigation water is none existent.  We are lucky to have enough creek water to water the livestock right now.  Springs and wells are drying up at a rate I have not seem since 1966.

As far as your question of your plan – I am sort of the opinion if you like it that is all that matters.  For us it just would never work.  Plus I am not a fan of small houses and cabins for us.  I found this site a long time ago when looking for a guest house or small cabin for up here at the ranch or homestead.  That plan went away in favor of a 2,200 sq ft house.  We will hopefully start on soon.  That said this forum has sort of just fit well. 

A word of guidance however do not shotgun blast a posting as you did.  It just turns the most members off from ever reading anything you post.  But please do not take me as being a guru of the forum.
Title: Re: Homestead Mini-Orchard
Post by: MountainDon on July 27, 2013, 05:45:59 PM
Quote...i dont undestand what shot gun blasting...

Posting the same information in a number of different topics especially when some are not directly related to the topic at hand.
Title: Re: Homestead Mini-Orchard
Post by: rick91351 on July 27, 2013, 07:39:20 PM
WOW are we ever on the ends of the spectrum on orchard care.  By the way we are 100% organic here.  Yet I stand on the fact there are places for having to pull out the reserves.  As far as bees are concerned this area has very very little GMO's and systemic if any.  Guess what mites and wasps, yellow-jackets, and hornets kill hives.  But I see people all over the county want to blame GMO's and systemics.  Yet they refuse to look to a simple wasp, yellow jacket  attack and killing the queen and if this occurs in the fall before they have a chance to establish a new queen that hive is dead.  A hive with out an established queen that they can work for just dies or becomes so lethargic they will not even eat.  Often times they have no Wasp, Yellow Jacket, and Hornet traps out or if they do they never check them and rebait them but point to GMO's and Systemics nor do the treat the hive for mites.

This hive lost its queen or she went infertile.  They re-queened and are doing very well now.  But it will be very iffy if it can survive up here this next winter.  I most likely will send it to the valley to  winter due to lack of winter stores.  But I was on top of it I knew what happened.  How easy for me to scream GMO's or Systemics.  None within a mile of here, none with in two miles of here, none with in 2.5 miles of here.  Bees will fly and sustain a hive at three miles.  But it is just sustained.     

(https://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt15/rick91351/DSCN0389_zps0c2d8e4e.jpg) (https://s593.photobucket.com/user/rick91351/media/DSCN0389_zps0c2d8e4e.jpg.html)

I went up there yesterday and it is ready for a super and the new queen is really a great layer. 

My bees are very satisfied I only use a light veil and never a bee suit when I work them.  I have been taught how not to get them riled up.  Most people that tend their hives go in fully dressed and gloved and kill bees and queens and point to GMO's and Systemics rather than a soft touch and a feel for their bees.

(https://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt15/rick91351/DSCN0311_zpsb0d1d3fc.jpg) (https://s593.photobucket.com/user/rick91351/media/DSCN0311_zpsb0d1d3fc.jpg.html)   

(https://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt15/rick91351/DSCN0310_zps5db1b54a.jpg) (https://s593.photobucket.com/user/rick91351/media/DSCN0310_zps5db1b54a.jpg.html)

         

Your recommendation of mowing the orchard short around trees completely runs contrary to any class or reading I have ever taken or done.  I think I will continue doing as I have been educated and found out what works here.  We follow closely to the recommendations of Agencies and Nurseries letting the grass grow until the latter part of July.  This year we broke tradition that because the grass reached maturity much earlier than usual due to the drought.  Plus an infestation of Idaho 17 Year Cicadas that took a heavy toll on trees especially young trees.  So then we were a month early mowing in the large orchard.  This did lesson the hiding places for the Cicadas but set back places for the predatory insects to hang out.  (In the tall grasses under the trees.) 

Your hot spray never has worked for us.  Insects here must like hot and spicy...... But then I have only been at as whole gardening, landscape, and  helping with farming and ranching for about 58 of my sixty two years.  But I am very willing to learn.  However when stuff I try works then you tell me to do the opposite.  It just is not going to happen.  Also have heard that dogs hate hot peppers ours love them to the point we have to fence them and the bell pepper off.  They love hot pork rinds as well.   

I stand on the fact if a creature be it four legged or six legged and they are hungry enough they will eat.  As far as deer in the trees nothing beats the fence but they are very expensive.  One nursery claims they have the best luck on their test orchard minus a fence are those small bars of soap like motel size in small net bags.

Now about this forum.......

Quote from: MountainDon on July 27, 2013, 05:45:59 PM
Posting the same information in a number of different topics especially when some are not directly related to the topic at hand.

See one thing on a forum is you earn respect.  If MD or Don_P or Glenn or Jarhead tells me something I never asked for I will read it and digest it.  I never asked you for a single bit of advice I received from you.  Much runs contrary to what works for me / us here.  Never think what works in AZ will work in Maine.  What works on the coast of AK will not work in fact will get you killed in the interior.  What works at Boise, Idaho at 2700 ft will never work 50 miles away here at 5000 ft.  The short of it one size does not fit all.  I have read a lot and studied both from organic and conventional authors and growers.  I have asked and wrote nurserymen, bee keepers and stock men questions and got answers to problems but key is I asked.

That said ya'll have a good one........ 
Title: Re: Homestead Mini-Orchard
Post by: rick91351 on July 28, 2013, 10:40:39 PM
I can assure you these bees do sting.  There are days I have really gotten zapped but not like when I started out.  Cloudy days, windy days, to hot days, days that end in y all will set them off.  Bad breath - will set them off - keep Altoids in your kit.  My bees settle down well with jute cord and pine needles in my smoker.  They are more edgy with the commercial smoker fuels.  Do not smoke them too much this tends to upset them rather than settle them down.  Do not smoke them with hot smoke.  Old bees that are just about done are very cranky and like nothing more than to go out with a good sting.   ;)  Some deodorants, perfume and hair spays if you are a lady or around a lady get them up set.  Some perfumes attract them to ladies like panic thick..... 

I subscribe to the issue of when to prune.  Best answer I ever receive and works for me was given in a horticulture class in high school.  If you are walking by a branch that needs trimmed and you have pruners cut it off.  To let a tree go unpruned is a bad mistake and you are setting it up for disease and lessen the out put of fruit.  It also supports bores and their spread if you do not prune.  There is an old English method of knowing if a tree needs pruned.  Take your hat and toss it through the branches.  If it gets hung up or can not pass through cleanly it needs pruned.     ;)

The best way we have found here to prevent pine beetles and bore from killing trees is aggressively thinning.  Go in remove the ladder fuels and all the twins.  Thin them so the breezes can pass through and get the air moving.  Thinning as such the trees do not compete for the moisture in the soil.  We are seeing a lot more butt or stump growth where we do this.     

Beforen

(https://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt15/rick91351/DSCN0228_zps0825e62a.jpg) (https://s593.photobucket.com/user/rick91351/media/DSCN0228_zps0825e62a.jpg.html)

After

(https://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt15/rick91351/DSCN0229_zps22a49574.jpg) (https://s593.photobucket.com/user/rick91351/media/DSCN0229_zps22a49574.jpg.html)

Since we started managing our pine groves as such the beetles and bores have been detoured.  Best time to do it?  When you have a little time and you are not going to set everything on fire.......

One of our aggressively thinned pine groves in the back ground.  It will make a nice bunch of saw logs some days for future owners here if they continue thin and care for the property.  Be it my kids or grandkids or great grandkids or we sell it on the market.

(https://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt15/rick91351/DSCN0234_zpsa0dfcb3d.jpg) (https://s593.photobucket.com/user/rick91351/media/DSCN0234_zpsa0dfcb3d.jpg.html)

(https://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt15/rick91351/032913011_zps40dc52f4.jpg) (https://s593.photobucket.com/user/rick91351/media/032913011_zps40dc52f4.jpg.html)


   
Title: Re: Homestead Mini-Orchard
Post by: cbc58 on October 24, 2013, 12:19:05 PM
great information here.  I would just like to relay an experience we had with a small orchard at a house we were renting many years ago.  The owner had planted fruit trees and nurtured them for 15 years or so, and one summer some porcupines got in and went up the trees and severed many limbs off.   I think they dropped the limbs to get at the fruit and because of the bark... but they devastated a few trees before they were shown the pearly gates.   watch out for porcupines if they are in your area...
Title: Re: Homestead Mini-Orchard
Post by: rick91351 on October 24, 2013, 09:29:35 PM
You are 110% right about porcupines and trees.  They love to strip the bark and feast. 

We have not been able to give the orchards the big one nor the mini one much attention as of late.  We are concentrating on the building of the house and getting it dried in before the snow falls.  We really need to get the pump pulled and put away for the winter.  The tank needs drained and the spring disconnected.  We did order 100 ft of hardware cloth to make tree guards for the trees.  I picked it up the other day but have been doin' other stuff. 

Most people I have been in contact with a small orchards of six or eight trees feel that is worlds of plenty.  Next year we think watching the trees this year we feel they will start produce better.  Hope to keep those interested in the 'loop'.   

 
Title: Re: Homestead Mini-Orchard
Post by: hpinson on January 09, 2014, 06:05:37 PM
We are considering starting a few trees this year.  Does any one have suggestions for a type of apple that would be late blooming, cold hardy, and drought resistant.  I'm looking for local or mail order sources.

We are in high pinion-juniper woodland, in northern New Mexico, we have cold winters down to about -20F, hot summers up to about 100F, a light but generally persistent snowpack, and have strong monsoonal moisture in July and August (usually). There are lots of bees around. Lots of deer!

One local stock that I know works in such conditions is Dixon apples, as grown at the former Dixon Orchard. They are gone, wiped away by floods and politics, but I wonder if stock of this variety is available somewhere? In retrospect I should contact the County Extension agent, if such a person still exists around here.

We have a gorgeous old apricot tree, which yields (quite a bit) occasionally when there is a warm spring. 

Title: Re: Homestead Mini-Orchard
Post by: rick91351 on January 10, 2014, 11:53:30 AM
Quote from: hpinson on January 09, 2014, 06:05:37 PM
We are considering starting a few trees this year.  Does any one have suggestions for a type of apple that would be late blooming, cold hardy, and drought resistant.  I'm looking for local or mail order sources.

We are in high pinion-juniper woodland, in northern New Mexico, we have cold winters down to about -20F, hot summers up to about 100F, a light but generally persistent snowpack, and have strong monsoonal moisture in July and August (usually). There are lots of bees around. Lots of deer!

One local stock that I know works in such conditions is Dixon apples, as grown at the former Dixon Orchard. They are gone, wiped away by floods and politics, but I wonder if stock of this variety is available somewhere? In retrospect I should contact the County Extension agent, if such a person still exists around here.

We have a gorgeous old apricot tree, which yields (quite a bit) occasionally when there is a warm spring. 



I love to answer questions about fruit trees and our orchard.  It is a real labor of love.  Right now is a great time to get those fruit tree ordered.  But from where?  And what.....?

We went in to this blind not knowing anything and wow did we pay for it.  We did not know rootstock and why.  Size does make a difference.  Your dwarf and in some cases semi dwarf root stocks will not work in our climate nor yours.  You might as well toss your money to the wind.  To me the last place you go is the big box stores - their expert nursery staff in most cases does not know the difference between a filbert and Russian olive.  A Granny Smith and Granny glasses.   

Where I would start, especially if you are just looking for a few trees, would be a well established local to that area nursery.  If that is not possible there are two options I would toss out there for you.  One is Adams County Nursery- not spamming at all, I have done several thousand dollars of business with them.  Their sales staff is expert and great to work with.  I did check their stock and did not see any Dixon Apples.  But they got apples, and pears and a huge line of other fruit trees.  You do need to know sort of what type of soil you have before you call them.  My ill drained clay here goes well with an EMLA7 root stock, by the way, even in our cold climate.  Unless Dixons were grown in your area,  I mean real close temperature wise and with a rootstock that will work in you soi,l that might be a bust.     

My other go to place is St. Lawrence Nurseries via Ol Jarhead himself and I have done a little less than a thousand dollars worth of stuff there as well.  They are into only cold weather - extreme hardy trees.  For apples they use Russian Antonovka Rootstock.  They are a full sized tree.  There trees for most people are disappointingly small when they arrive.  This is not bad.  They are not pumped up with commercial fertilizers and and I absolutely love them.  If you have the time and water this year, get your order in for, as they are scarce but very cold hardy, black raspberries.  They are a strange company and very small.  They are US mail only.  They do not internet they are first come first served.  However their catalog is on line, and do not expect to get those big caliper trees.  You will receive these nice, and what some refer to as whips, little 3 foot starter trees.  They are vigorous and stout growing Russian rootstock trees.  We will be firming up another order to them this week.  Like I say first come first served. 

As far as deer - the experiment I am doing on this thread has worked well.  However those trees are now getting old enough to let them set fruit that is when the deer become an issue.  As well as when they start browsing.  They would work better if they were larger.  The photos at the start pretty well show what we did there, and fairly inexpensive.     
Title: Re: Homestead Mini-Orchard
Post by: hpinson on January 10, 2014, 01:05:09 PM
Thank you Rick. Exactly the references I was looking for.  Our choices here are the big box stores who stock trees that are unsuitable to the local climate and do poorly in terms of bearing fruit given the late frosts, Monrovia which has similar inappropriate offerings, , Plant World (local) who I need to check out, and "Plants of the Southwest" (local) who are amazing but I don't think stock fruit trees.

When I look at pictures of your place, I think our climates are somewhat similar, at least judging by the native vegetation.  Russian Antonovka Rootstock trees seems maybe a good suggestion.  Our soil has less clay, more quartz sand, but the old Apricot tree seems to do well in its little soil pocket, which is similar to where I would like to plant.  Picture of it here:

(http://ruratec.com/media/land/apricot_tree.jpg)

Dixon is an interesting apple stock, and I really need to look into it.  What little I know about it is that was developed here in New Mexico, at Dixon orchards, which were (until the flood two years back) at about 6000 feet, sheltered in the mouth of an east facing canyon.  It would have to be cold tolerant at that altitude and a late bloomer because late April frost is a regular occurrence there. The little Dixon apples were quite tasty.  A flood took the orchard two years ago, right after one of the Big Las Alamos fires.  The family that had been managing the orchard was put out but the state land office (the orchard was on state land) for some political reasons, and the local Cochiti Indian tribe who own the surrounding land expressed interest in taking over the orchard, but the farming expertise was lost and I hear it is not going well again for some political reasons.  It will be a shame if Dixon Apple stock is completely lost through inattention.









Title: Re: Homestead Mini-Orchard
Post by: rick91351 on January 10, 2014, 02:20:52 PM
About the Dixon Apple is there any small trees left?  Dumb question but warrants some consideration.  Who do it belong to?  If small enough can they be transplanted? 

We actually had some one from an eastern university up here looking for the remnants of a Black Arkansas Apple or parentage there of....  ???   Turns out this guy found where a shipment of this parentage was sent out this way.  Turned out where he did locate one or two in some old trees over in an orchard that was at a toll gate on a road that my grandmother folks owned.  Now part of US Highway 20.  People that talked to him said they were scouring old nursery records to find out where these old parentage apples went.  So I am wondering would the U of NM be wanting to propagate the Dixon Apple or is propagating them.  It would be fun and interesting is may be sort of anchor a planting.....  Would not hurt to ask or run it by some one.         
Title: Re: Homestead Mini-Orchard
Post by: hpinson on January 10, 2014, 02:36:33 PM
I read an article recently (which of course I can't locate again) about seeking out historic American apple heirloom stock. apparently a lot if not most varieties have been lost in the transition to modern saleable apples.  This group was going all over the US seeking old trees.

I just found this, which describes historic apple trees, mostly disappeared, on the Colorado Plateau:

http://www.landsward.nau.edu/document_forms/Kanin_Routson_Thesis.pdf

A some part of the Dixon orchard survives, but is under control of the State Land Office (the orchard is state trust land) and is abutted by Cohchiti Tribe lands I believe. I will have to ask the Ray Powell, the Land Commissioner. He is a good guy, and may well have some information.  Could they be obtained/ transplanted? I have no idea, but it is a question worth asking.

It's an interesting story about the Dixon orchard flood: http://youtu.be/S8k6hHi93J4

The fire was so intense that it took out an historic Adobe ranch house there with three foot thick mud walls. Then the flood finished the job. Interestingly, it was owned by the University of New Mexico, and abuts the orchard.  We almost bought property there, though now I'm glad we did not.

Sad that Fire Chief Tibbets, a friend of mine in Irish Music, who speaks at the end of the video, has passed away since in an accident.
Title: Re: Homestead Mini-Orchard
Post by: hpinson on January 10, 2014, 02:45:30 PM
Apparently the Dixon hybrid is patented...  Based on a historic "Champagne" apple tree found in the canyon by the grandfather of the [ex] caretakers.  It was a very ugly situation after the flood, and the caretakers were put out.

http://youtu.be/jitMtaXguc8

More about the fight at the end:

http://www.abqjournal.com/221311/biz/powell-reiterates-apple-orchard-lease-rejection.html


Title: Re: Homestead Mini-Orchard
Post by: Redoverfarm on January 10, 2014, 06:30:19 PM
Something to make you sick.  My father who recently passed had planted about 40 trees of various varities back in the late 70's.  He loved his hobby to say nothing of the fruit they yielded.  Two years ago I moved my parents close to me and they sold their property where the trees were planted.  The majority of the trees were old varities that my Dad had either grafted or found root stock.  He was into the older varities. He had a couple of Arkansas Black's.  Because they were older varities they were full size not semi or dwarf.    The new owner from what I heard had bulldozed out all the trees that he had skillfully planted and raised. 
Title: Re: Homestead Mini-Orchard
Post by: hpinson on January 10, 2014, 09:17:11 PM
 :-[ :-[ :-[

I found the article:

Why Your supermarket Only Sells 5 Kinds of Apples

http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/04/heritage-apples-john-bunker-maine?page=1



Title: Re: Homestead Mini-Orchard
Post by: rick91351 on January 10, 2014, 10:30:22 PM
Quote from: hpinson on January 10, 2014, 09:17:11 PM
:-[ :-[ :-[

I found the article:

Why Your supermarket Only Sells 5 Kinds of Apples

http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/04/heritage-apples-john-bunker-maine?page=1


The orchard business is weird so says the owner of one of the huge orchards left here in Idaho.  I ran in to him in the barber shop.  He was telling us that it is a crap shoot what people will buy.  It was for years you had to grow huge volumes Delicious and Romes.  Soon things run the other way and you can not sell a Delicious in favor of Gala's and Fuji's and baking apples are going to waste.  Now it is Honey Crisp's and a few baking apples are making a come back.  Problem is going with the crystal ball knowing how tastes will change.

We still have huge selections of apples in the stores year around.  I am sort of distressed that we are importing more and more of what we can grow.  We would rather not labor for the prize but purchase the prize.  Many times purchased from big business farming co-ops and packing sheds which dictate what they are going to run and pack.  But as in all things in agriculture it is sell it or smell it.....

As far as old verities - Wow who has not gorged themselves off those old trees in the autumn.  Many very tart and firm.  But if the public does not want them the public will not eat them.  It is like the talk of heirloom vegetables.  Hybrids often taste WOW better.  They usually have a better eye appeal and store better.  Breeding and parenting these varieties did not start yesterday with DuPont and Monsanto many have been messing with the stew pot ever since he got kicked out of the Garden of Eden.....  What is the sense of growing bushels of tomatoes of you cant can them or eat them.  Or why grow corn if it only has one spindly ear when better breeding puts on three.  But now modern science and ag - business  is being stupid silly.  GMOs and herbicides that mess up the food chain all for profit.....                   
Title: Re: Homestead Mini-Orchard
Post by: rick91351 on January 10, 2014, 10:39:29 PM
Quote from: Redoverfarm on January 10, 2014, 06:30:19 PM
Something to make you sick.  My father who recently passed had planted about 40 trees of various varities back in the late 70's.  He loved his hobby to say nothing of the fruit they yielded.  Two years ago I moved my parents close to me and they sold their property where the trees were planted.  The majority of the trees were old varities that my Dad had either grafted or found root stock.  He was into the older varities. He had a couple of Arkansas Black's.  Because they were older varities they were full size not semi or dwarf.    The new owner from what I heard had bulldozed out all the trees that he had skillfully planted and raised.

The bulldozing of trees does not surprise me.  But WOW it saddens me.  Sorry to read that....  My grandmother on dads side was that way she never went anywhere without coming home without cutting or grafts or......   my be that is where I get it from :D
Title: Re: Homestead Mini-Orchard
Post by: Canvasman on January 12, 2014, 05:51:45 PM
I also purchase trees from St. Lawernce and yes the trees arrive small. Hopefully they will work well for northern Wisconsin, have an order going out soon to them. For old varieties try Southmeadow in Michigan. Another for hardy trees and variety used to be Millers in New York, but they sold out to starks in Missouri this last year.
Rick, I enjoy reading about your orchard.
Eric
Title: Re: Homestead Mini-Orchard
Post by: OlJarhead on January 15, 2014, 03:10:11 PM
Pretty happy with my trees from them also.  They are growing like weeds in the summer!

I do however, need to get out and put cages around them  d* don't want the rabbits to dicover them and ring them all!
Title: Re: Homestead Mini-Orchard
Post by: Don_P on January 15, 2014, 08:26:02 PM
We are getting more cideries in the past few years which is leading to more interest in old time apple varieties, the kind that are small and tart. All of our commercial orchards switched to dessert apples many years ago for the eating market but this should help bring back some orchards of the drinking variety. Johnny Appleseed was planting that type of apple. The colonies weren't founded on tea or beer, hard cider was the most common thirst quencher 200 years ago. We have a few old trees left as do many around here and have made frsh and hard cider and wine from them. Fermentation was simply a method of preservation and the acids and tannin in the old varieties helps with the keeping qualities as well as the flavor of cider. Those small cideries will be looking for older type apples if the trend continues. I've been around long enough to have seen forcasts of this coming resurgance a few times but this does seem to be the strongest showing yet. This is the dormant season for gathering scion wood for grafting. Our extension agent will be offering a couple of grafting workshops again this year. I think this is fairly common, worth checking with your local extension office. We'll sign up again this year, usually you come home with about 5-10 trees and a skill worth knowing.
Title: Re: Homestead Mini-Orchard
Post by: rick91351 on January 15, 2014, 11:32:23 PM
I think all our local cider - vinegar plants have shut their doors.  It is too bad however I would think that as trendy as this area is someone should do the same here crafting ciders and vinegars.   

There is a certain need for those old apples - most were breed to store well and cook well some juice very well.  That is why I love those old verities for homestead purposes.  But the newer Honey Crisp is a great new breed.  It's keeping is pretty limited from what I see.  But if they taste good more than likely will not have that problem   ;)

There are also a couple outlets that sell what you get apple trees is you get is what you get apple trees.  No breeding - no promises.  Take them down to the creek and plant them for game crops or food plots if you will.  You might even end up with a couple great apple trees.  I am tempted to do such...... 
Title: Re: Homestead Mini-Orchard
Post by: considerations on January 16, 2014, 11:30:17 AM
That is right..the older varieties were popular because they kept well and made good cider and vinegar. I planted one Fuji...but the rest are old standards...kept dry and cold I have some wrinkly but tasty apples to add to the first rhubarb harvest in spring. And I made a decent batch of cider last fall. Lots of things are not perfect around here..but the apple trees were one of the sucesses.