Plans Change, and now I'm starting with a 12 X 12

[OlJarhead]

Loup Loup should be fine but bring some heat!  0 degree sleeping bags will help but it is going to be brutally cold.

[JavaMan]

So the first order of business is pictures of the finished roof - well, only one, it's all I have:



You can see the new pieces of sheathing up on the top.

That's the son of one of my church's pastors ... and the dog from another friend of his that came up with us.

After getting that roof on, we papered it, and papered most of the exterior walls.

As for the most recent weekend that we were hoping to head up and finish up some stuff and begin siding it (windows, door, siding, etc...) but the mission was aborted.  Not because of snow or cold - I had managed to get 0 degree bags and a heater to go with us.  We would have been plenty warm - even if we had to sleep in the truck!

But alas, my friend (the father of the boy in the pic above) apparently came down with the flu just before we left - and we got as far as Cle Elem (with me asking all the way if I needed to turn back) before I finally decided - without his input - that we were going to turn back.  He was in a world of hurt.

So that was that.  Sadly, it will now wait until spring, or until I can afford a snowmobile or quad or some Track and Go's  (or similar)

I am looking forward to getting back up and getting it finished.  Well, ok getting the outside of it finished.

[JavaMan]

Well, I was looking at ol' jar heads thread.  It was making me green with envy that he can get up to his place even in the winter.

I've been toying with the idea of a cheap snowmobile or maybe two and a flatbed trailer to haul it/them with.  And then a couple sleds to two behind for hauling supplies.  There is a nice spot at the end of the county maintained road that I could park the truck and trailer and sled up to the property on the machines for a couple days when I wanted to.  I think it would be awesome, but I'd have to pack in almost everything.  I'd want the shed/cabin to be more complete than it is now, including stovepipe (at least) for a small heat stove.  It wouldn't take much to warm the place up.

Anyway, maybe next year.  after 23 years of living on the west coast, I really miss the 4 seasons...

[OlJarhead]

We've both had to walk in and ATV in, in the past and if planned that can just add to the adventure   If it were me I'd get one good sled (can handle two people easily) and a tow sled to haul in gear on.  Depending on the distance you need to travel it can be a short trip in and out to get stuff in for a weekend stay.

You won't haul in a lot of gear but if you have the place secure you can stock up supplies in the late summer or early fall and then sled in later to do some work on the place while the wood stove keeps it warm

Or just sled in with packs on and spend a great weekend enjoying the place

One thing I'd do though is install an underground cistern and fill it up in the summer months so when you arrive in the winter you don't have to haul water.  You may need to install a tank heater if the cistern isn't deep enough and freezes but with some good preps and a genny it should be quite doable.

Incidentally the top of my cistern is about 22" down and it does not freeze up in the winter.  Sure it might get a layer of ice on top, but under the ice is plenty of water for me.

[JavaMan]

Wow - been a while since I posted.

Lots going on in the personal "space" but as far as I am concerned I'm going to hang onto the property.  I may wind up having to fall back to there for a period of life, who knows.

That's what I was thinking though about the sled... A single good sled that is two person capable, and a tow behind sled.  Even a one person machine that can tow a sled that hold one person would be good, too.  Altho that would mean multiple trips up and down the mountain. Which after three or four might make the road in navigable by the 4x4 pick up 

I've been up the road nearly all the way on a quad (actually I think it was a Polaris "razor" equivalent - that was 7 years ago!)

An ATV/Quad would be more functional, though, as it could be used for crawling around the place in the summer, too, and running into Conconully, etc... But transporting them on the flatbed trailer would certainly come in handy.

I see the pass near my place is just about devoid of snow, which means I might be able to get in there 4 to 6 weeks early this year.

[JavaMan]

Ok, I have a question - a structural construction type question.

I'm looking ahead to the next project (finally!) the build of the actual cabin, and am trying to think of an easy way to build the roof system.  I shall describe what I have in mind, then ask the question(s).

The design is for rafters with collar ties at wall height (it's an open ceiling) - and I do believe the rafter system is plenty strong, however, it's the part from the rafters out that has me thinking.  what I have thought of so far is:

1.  On top of the rafters 1" T&G
2.  On top of that, 2X lumber to create a space for insulation and ventilation
3.  between the 2x (probably 2x4 or 2x6) insulation
4.  On top of the 2x, another layer of 1" T&G (because it's available cheap).
5.  On top of the outermost layer of T&G, steel roofing.

My question is, can I actually use T&G in step 4? or is that not a strong enough or functional enough diaphragm?  I can go with ply or OSB, but the I have a possible source of inexpensive T&G that would save me a bunch of $$$

I hope to hear from some of the more experienced builders!

Thanks.

[OlJarhead]

Tryinig to picture what you want to do:  are you aiming for an open rafter look?  Meaning rafters that can be seen with a roof sandwich on the top of that?  If so it wouldn't look at nice (I think) with plywood or OSB on top of the rafters.  I'd think T&G Pine above the 'false' rafters would look better.

My parents had something like this.  what they did was frame the roof with trusses that allowed for insulation and structural integrity but left a vaulted ceiling underneath.  Then the underside was sheathed in T&G wood with false beam rafters under that to give the look they wanted.  Can't say exactly how they did it but if I had to I'd make a double roof perhaps.

2x8/10/12 (depends on the roof engineering) rafters set on the walls with rafter ties and collar ties sheathed on top with T&G pine covered with R10 foam X2 covered with OSB or plywood (long screws required), felted and roofed.  This is what a neighbor did more or less and he swears it's more than enough insulation.  Not vented either.

OK maybe I wouldn't do that (still thinking)...I did my back room with 2x8 rafters, osb, R10 Foam, OSB and then roofing over felt but I insulated the 2x8 rafters too.

Another option might be to frame the roof and insulate per normal, then screw false rafters directly onto the underside on top of the ceiling T&G to give the look of open rafters.

[MountainDon]

I guess I am right in assuming, like OJH, that you are after a cathedral ceiling type of appearance, but with a beam effect across the wall tops?

And a note, just to use the correct terminology.... your reference "The design is for rafters with collar ties at wall height " .... Those would be rafter ties, whose purpose is to tie the wall tops together... Collar ties are further up the rafters, near the peak and are used to tie the peak together. Metal straps over the exterior can be subbed for collar ties. Ordinary rafter ties are supposed to be on every rafter pair whereas collar ties, once every 4 feet. If you use larger members, like beams, for the rafter ties they can probably be spaced further apart, but that is getting into engineer country.

OSB and plywood sheet goods have the distinct advantage of making the roof diaphragm rigid, able to withstand wind forces. 1x boards, T&G or not, don't offer anywhere near the rigidity of sheet materials unless they are run at a diagonal. Sub flooring used to be 1x's run diagonally. I'm not sure about old roofs, but they would not have great rigidity unless the 1x's were diagonal. Running the 1x perpendicular to the rafters (horizontal or lengthwise down the roof) can look good, but is not super rigid.  For the OSB or plywood to work properly it should be the first layer nailed on the top of the rafters.

IF you were to pursue the 1x T&G first layer the best insulation would likely be layers of 4x8 sheets of XPS or polyiso foam. Then a layer of OSB secured thru the foam to the rafters. Then the finish roofing.

If I had a good supply of cheap T&G I think I would use as much of it as possible inside and even as exterior siding. Although outside I personally think lap siding is better suited. But use 4x8 sheets of OSB or plywood to make a structurally solid roof assembly. Ditto for the walls.

A well designed and built cathedral ceiling is not cheap and is one of the more difficult insulation projects. Spray in place foam makes the insulation easier and good, but adds to the cost.

FWIW,  WA state energy code calls for R38 minimum ceiling insulation. Some counties R49.  That is a lot of foam. 

[JavaMan]

Ok, perhaps a bit more info will clear up the picture...   

OJH, I think you have the general idea - a roof sammich on top of the rafters... worst case, I'd say your neighbor did is what I'm thinking of - I'm just thinking if I have all the T&G available, I'd like to use that - but (and it's an important but) - I'd rather it be strong and workable, rather than pretty until the first good wind comes along 

The plans call for 4X8 rafters in pairs, with the rafter ties also being 4X8 being placed in a 4" space between them - these combo's are spaced 4' OC with only 1 set of rafters at each end of the cabin.

Yes, I would like to put T&G on the sky side of the 4x8's so that it's visible from inside the cabin (yes a vaulted ceiling), then insulation, then an outer sheathing, and then the "shingles" (Steel).

The walls are log so no T&G needed there.

Don, your comments on diagonal-ness (if that's a word) leads me to another question of, can that outer layer of sheathing be T&G diagonally installed? Or is it going to be too far from the rafters to do much good?

[JavaMan]

Don ... I would assume from your earlier comments that actual tongue and groove planks really aren't up to snuff on a roof sandwich as the first layer.

So after some research, I was wondering if beadboard sheets would be sufficient?  My issue is that the thickest I can find them available it 19/32 ... (7/8 -ish?)  is that or the 7/16 going to be sufficient, do you think?  That would give the T&G "look" (sort of) without sacrificing the overall integrity of the diaphragm?

Thanks for the help!

[MountainDon]

The panels should be stamped for structural use on the back side if they would be okay for the purpose desired.

[JavaMan]

Had a discussion with the assistant pastor of my church - his "real job" (full time) is a carpenter - he said rather than using standard 1" T & G (usually 3/4" in reality) to use 2" T&G (1 3/4" really) as the "base" layer.  Then the insulation and then some sheathing.  His comments were to put them in with 16 penny sinkers - or screws with better shear values, then put on top what I want/need. 

I expressed my concern over the racking forces/diaphragm,  and that's what he suggested on a 12:12 pitch.

Figure since he's been at this for 20 + years he probably would be a dependable source.

[OlJarhead]

Watching 'Cabin Builders' recently I noticed they often use T&G for the ceiling in their cabins.  I'm thinking they sandwich it with R10 Foam and sheathing on top but am not certain since they don't show that part.

[JavaMan]

yeah, that's the general idea.  Should give me a bit of insulation in the ceiling and the T&G look.

I am eager to get the shed/cabin done and move on to this new project.  It is about 10 times larger in scope but I've been plannign and planning it for a number of years and think I have a final scheme of how to accomplish it nailed down. (no pun intended  )

I hope to be able to start it up here within the next month ... yeah, and this project was supposed to be finished about 4 years ago, too 

[OlJarhead]

If it were me I'd go with two sheets of R20 at a min but then I might also use a false ceiling to get the look I want and put in an R40 roof   it does get cold up there

[MountainDon]

FWIW, you can't have too much ceiling / roof insulation. We have R45 to R50 total of batts plus blown in cellulose in our cabin ceiling. We initially installed R13 in the planned 2 step process. After that was in and the ceiling installed we blew in the cellulose the following summer. Huge difference, both summer and winter.

[JavaMan]

Ok ... so, the more things change the more they stay teh same.

Today was my last day of employment until I find a new position. 

The good news is that I already have a lot of irons in that fire. 

The even better news is that I am planning on heading up to the property this weekend to do some work on the "shed" and start laying out some of the prep work for the build of the actual cabin. It's about time - it's only been what? 7 years or so?

I've got to do this on a bit of a budget, but if I can get a few things that are in the works to pop into the active mode, the budget will be there ... and to save some money I'm going to try to go up for 4 days or more at a crack, rather than just a weekend - that will save me the gas money for those trips I combine two weekends into a single 4 day weekend.

Hopefully OJH will see this as I am going to attempt to contact you via email - I have a few milling questions to ask of you ... and I'd rather have an email conversation - or even a phone call (maybe even over a beer on weekend when we're both up that way  )

I've got help lined up for some of the heavy lifting and dirty work, (and high stuff)... so it should start to move a bit faster.

That's the update - pictures to follow.  Heck I might even have pics from the property as I have a hotspot and I am hoping it will connect while I'm there.  One of the possible employment situations will allow remote work occassionaly - which would be great!

[OlJarhead]

Sorry to hear about the job situation!  Always tough but we've both weathered that before right?

Too bad I won't be up this weekend (getting new batteries in Kennewick for the cabin instead) but your plan is a good one!  I always got more done when I could take 4 or 5 days rather than 2 (which is really 1 in the end)...I always took advantage of 'down time' on the job to get more done at the cabin and just prepped for it as much as could be.

I'll PM a good email as it's changed.

[JavaMan]

Well, the wife saw to it that I didn't have even 2 full days.

She had a family emergency and requested that I come home to "babysit" the two kids - 18 & 20 ... go figure.

AH well, probably just as well, since the place is fixin' to burn down, it looks like.  The red square is my property.



I just checked and those angry red squares to the south west have now changed to orange... hopefully a good sign - altho we're still red-flagged to the end of the night

[JavaMan]

A few images to remember it by (in case).... and to give a sense of what was actually accomplished in the day and a half I was up there...



You can see some of the paper was blown off the roof over the winter/spring.



A closer look at the side and by the door opening



And finally a close up of the corner treatment ...

As you can tell some of the openings need to have the sheeting cleared yet... (and the gable ends closed up)  and I didn't take a picture of the opposite side which I did at least as high up ... it would have been nice to have the extra couple days for that, but then it would have been good to have help for those day, too.

Maybe next time - if it's still there in a week or two

[OlJarhead]

The wind is forcing the fire south and pushing VERY hard (30-50mph) so unless the yellow dots turn to that angry red you might be ok!  Here is a map that updates more frequently: http://www.mappingsupport.com/p/gmap4.php?ll=48.700931%2C-119.443359&z=11&t=h%2CWind_in_6_hrs%2CMODIS_thermal%2CCurrent_fire&q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.propertylinemaps.com%2Fp%2Fpublic_land_map%2FUSA%2FUSA_wildland_fire.txt

[JavaMan]

Yeah, been looking for more accurate info.  A map on the county Emergency Management page made it look like the one fire was all the way across the north end of Leader Lake and approaching the county seat!  The way it was drawn it could have grazed my place, so I'm a bit frantic trying to find accurate info.  That map was from the site you just gave me.... but it was so small I couldn't see where the boundaries were... I'm checking it out now.

I hope your place is doing well, also!

[JavaMan]

Thanks OJH for that link to the map ... it is more current than the Google Maps version, but the GM still shows pretty much the same info, just with a bit of a lag, I guess.



Where the cross in the middle is ... that's the middle of my place.  It looks like it might have within the last 24 hours, grazed the top of my place, but that's it.  I'm hoping so.

[OlJarhead]

Hoping with you!  The black circles are supposed to be old burns (as in no longer burning but did burn within the last week or so).

[JavaMan]

Yeah, but now the two fires have bridged the gap - right at Buzzard Lake - and if there's a wind in the right direction tonight, I could wind up with charcoal tomorrow.

Some of the hams are telling me that Omak Airport was reporting zero visibility and 61 MPH winds.  The road from Omak to Conconully is blocked by guard troops. and Conconully is a ghost town (95% evacuated.)

In the 15 years I've lived up here, I've not seen anything like this before... and this is only ONE of the many fires going on!