Renovation???

Started by benevolance, February 19, 2007, 11:16:08 PM

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benevolance

Found this old building locally here in Lake City...Showed it to my wife and she fell in love with it instantly...She wants for us to purchase it and turn it into a farmers market...and rent the rest of it out to restaurants and shops...

Where the money is going to come from I have no idea....

But the building inside is in great shape...All the brick is sound...the building is supposed to be something like 150 years old... I know it is massive...

325 feet long...Main part of it is 50 feet deep and then there are several ells that tie onto the back of it...I was out on the grounds today measuring as best I could with the 200 foot tape...And there is between 55,000- 56,000 feet of space to develop...Plus a massive lot for parking or something else...

Here are the pictures....

http://ca.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/anything_baseball/album?.dir=/12b2re2

glenn-k

How is the market for that kind of space there?  In the right place and market it could do good -- in the wrong place it could be an albatross.  


phalynx

The big question is, is there a need for small shops, etc. in the area?  Trying to create the need from nothing can be hazardous to your pocket book.  If there is lack of small shop space in the area, you may have them lining up to lease.  I like the look of the building and can see it as your wife has visioned.  It looks like it used to have railroad frontage.  I am not sure, but the covered long front looks like a station/loading area for a rail spur.  Perhaps that could have a nice boardwalk to create continuity to each shop and keep a theme.

benevolance

Well this is a town that lost it's cotton mill and tobacco mills 20 years ago....It is growing now...They are building the second 4 lane highway through the town...There used to be a regional county airport that is going to be re-opened in the next year...

There are some vacant shops....My wife and I thought that it was a better idea to buy this to open up a farmers market....Rather than try to rent/lease a building from someone else long term...

might be we do not have the money to risk  right now...

Going to be 6 months before I am done with the house anyways.......thing is that someone is going to get this...I would like it if it were me

benevolance

Yes the building is right downtown and the tracks are there....Train comes by every couple of hours...


okie-guy

My wife and I bought a motel when we started in business. Lived there and worked there. We had no living expenses, everything was deductable. I'd love to fix up that second floor of this wharehouse  and live there. You could even get on the Home and garden network on the show "Rezoning"!
Seriously if you had to live there to run and protect your business you could fix it up and live there and deduct the whole shebang.
Good luck with it.

benevolance

Well I called the realtor today and I am waiting for the price...It is supposed to be sickeningly low...Which it needs to be...I am not rich like Peg and Glenn ;)

I could sell my home to buy it and move into the warehouse....ummmm I think I will get sassy to write my wife a letter explaining she is moving into a warehouse with no heat water electricity...LOL

Sassy a little help here!

Sassy

#7
Well, Benevolance - the building looks wonderful - I can see why you would want it - what Okieguy says about living there & using it for a write-off would be great.  Sounds like it is centrally located - lots of room - the possibilities are endless - depending on what your community needs.  If the price is right & you can work it out financially - could be a great investment.

How far are you on the remodel of your house?  And, young man, where are the pictures???  ;)  How fast would you be able to sell?  Sounds like the community is growing... so the potential is there.

Look at what the expense will be to get heat & water etc, what type of renovations you will have to make...  if the price isn't too bad & you can take your time - but then, women often tend to get anxious to have the "nest" finished  ::) - so you'll have to take the long range view that with something of this magnitude, you'll have to be patient & deal with inconveniences & not having things exactly the way you want them for a long time.   :-/

You'll have to look at all the hidden expenses, property taxes, etc.  A farmers market would be nice, but how dependable?  You could have your shop in there... in Mariposa, we have a massage therapy school -  someone might want to rent a space for a specialized school might be an idea for part of it;  the boardwalk suggestion is good - I know there is a huge shopping center in Fresno that attracts people - more so because of the way it is set up with sitting areas, fountains, landscaping etc the encourages people to stay around longer & shop.  

These are just thoughts off the top of my head, for what they are worth... I'm certainly no expert here.  Once in awhile something comes by that you can't hardly refuse... and you step out & take a chance.  We've done that & it seems to be paying off.  We still work like dogs a lot of the time, but do get a little bit of R & R - Glenn is the one who has stepped out, learned about & started different businesses - he's the entrapraneour (sp) - I stick more to the safe side - went to school & got my nursing degree - which I've never regretted & it pays very well.   Glenn switched from well-drilling a couple years after we were married to structural steel - we had some pretty lean years of scrimping & saving - we've had to borrow to keep things going - but I think finally, we are getting to the point we don't wonder where the next dollar is coming from.  

We've purchased property - at really great prices - scrounged around for the money (I can borrow against my retirement account & the interest is paid back to me), bought the last property (house & 40 acres) in partnership with my brother.  As long as there is income - borrowing is not always the worst thing you can do - but we're intent on getting things paid off.   Glenn has finally been able to get some decent equipment & not always have to fix what he has 1st before he uses it (although that still happens on a regular basis  :-/ )  If you can swing it without borrowing, all the better - who knows what the economy will bring...

Anyway, something like this can be really rewarding & build up a relationship & financial security or it can lead to loss but still leave the relationship stronger for the struggles or it can mess up everything... weigh all the costs 1st & if you think you can do it, go for it!   :)  ...then again, we've made spur-of-the-moment decisions & they've worked out well, too - sooooooo  :-?  (I do a lot of praying  ;) )

benevolance

Sassy

The house is a mess....*LOL*

I have installed one floor of central heating and AC... I have jacked up the house... Levelled it...New columns under it (well a few new columns) The laundry room and 2 of the bathrooms are finished

I still need to:

Install new windows...About 50 of the darned things

Remodel the Kitchen..When money allows

sand repair paint most of the walls inside...The 80 year old plaster has spider web cracks in many places from me jacking up the house

And finish up the Central heat and Ac upstairs...

Well and I also saw on one of the additions that they did not break joint when laying the brick...And so the front has separated from the sides on the sun room...So when I install new windows all the brick needs to be removed...Cleaned and laid again after the ground is levelled up with cement...

I have been busy in the yard cutting trees and landscaping...I will post pics soon I promise...Not very proud of the way it looks now...All messy and things half done.

Dunno where the $8,000 is going to come from yet for the new windows...I started to look and price them anyways...Want to get that stuff done before it gets hot and muggy here...

And I need to get moving on the greenhouse too...I have enough material scrounged for it I think...My wife wants to start planting trees and going nuts..She is bugging me to no end for the garden etc...

If I had a little more money things would be faster and easier...I should have hired help for some of the things I have done...No money to pay help with though....So I conscripted the wife into service ::)

I am hoping in the next 2 months we will have most of the things done to the house and then we will get an appraiser back in to have another look at it and tell us what he thinks....

Onto the warehouse....This is a major and I mean major project.... Great building and location yes...But inside the place needs everything.... All new plumbing, wiring...etc....So it is not going to be cheap or easy...

I guess maybe I could fix part of it up right away to lease out for a store or shop whatever....And then keep fixing more of it up as time went on...

I called a lifelong friend of mine that has money and I pitched it to him as a partnership deal...I found it and will buy it...He is a silent partner I will do the renovation work he will pay for the renovations and we become partners...

We will see what he says I guess???

I am self employed...I cannot get much money...The bank does not like self employed people even if they own a house without any real debt....

If the warehouse is as cheap as it was advertised to me I would sell one of my classic cars and go buy it with cash...Not credit....Where the money would come from to fix it is another problem...


Sassy

The good thing about being self-employed is you can hustle more jobs to make more money, but then you can have a really slow time which eats up the money you made during the busy time.  You guys are doing really well - not many 30+ yr olds are able to buy a house outright & then have the knowledge to remodel it (if you don't have the knowledge, you study up on it.)

Sounds like you have accomplished quite a bit in a short period of time - we take pictures of our half-done, messy stuff  :D - maybe someone could learn from  step-by-step photo instructions of some of the projects you are doing?  Peg does some nice layouts on his work that are really helpful.    

That would be great if your friend agrees to go in partnership with you.  Just have to make sure that everything is spelled out with your contract real clear so there aren't any misunderstandings.

I know how your wife feels, I've had to learn a lot of patience - I'm the type that wants it all done at once - but there's no way we could do that, so as not to drive myself crazy, I try to focus on what we've already accomplished & how comfortable & special our cabin is - even if it still needs lots more to finish it.   :)  

glenn-k

Just be careful, Peter.  You can sometimes lose more on these things than you can make.

The owners of this building PD several $100K for this.



And in a few months it was this.



I would guess it cost them at least another $50K to clean it up so the neighbor could rebuild his foundation.

Yours looks better but check it out well - even the mortar - the above turned to loose sand after the lime left.  

I hope it works out - just be careful. :)




Sassy

I was going to mention that building Glenn posted the pics of - we really liked it & thought it would be neat to own a bit of history - Glenn called the real estate lady about it but she never called us back - good thing, as you can see.  

So, you can either get the buy of a lifetime  8-) or a disaster...  :'(

benevolance

Sassy

Well there is big difference between my work and someone like Pegs..He is a skilled craftsman who has 30 years experience...I am a hack...I stumble through what I am able to accomplish.....Often making boo boos and needing to clean up mistakes and go back over things...

No way in hell I am taking pictures of anything that is less than perfect....Well as perfect as I am able to make it.

I will give you an example...

I tiled the floor in my laundry room...I thought I was soooo  awesome...I leveled the floor...Chiseling the high spots and mixing a floor covering to smooth and sand to make it perfect to go over the low spots...I scrubbed it and  cleaned it with a de-greaser...I bought a  glue trial and flooring adhesive...I read up on flooring techniques Heated the tiles had weights to lay on them...Bought a rolling pin to roll down on newly laid tiles...

So I finally got the damned things to stick....Only I forgot to check to see if the room was perfectly square....It wasn't! So as I got across the room I had this growing area of floor that was not tiled near the walls...It kept creeping on me...

Looked like SH*t!!!! Luckily the window sill had an overhang of an inch or so...So I nailed a one inch thick board under the sill making it flush all the way around the room...Which helped some...And for the spots where it was out more than a inch I had to ruin perfectly good tiles and cut them on an angle and lay them down....

You cannot tell now ....But I felt like a damned fool....No way I was showing pictures of my failure...

I think the bricklayer was stoned when he built the room that became my laundry room...Not one corner in the room is even remotely close to 90 degrees....What a freaking nightmare.

I am sure that others here would have known the best way to fix this...I did not and had to stumble through it...

I also had a hell of a time building my bead board cabinet around the sink...And I was out in outer space trying to get the sink and the cabinet square...I thought I was losing my marbles for a while there trying to figure the damned thing out.

The wall was crooked and the corner was not plum.

And the worst part is that in the bathroom I am scared to touch there is all kinds of "I have never seen anything like this carpentry"....Will need to enter with sledgehammer and exit when I cannot move my arms...

Last week my wife complained the sink was backing up when she had a shower...

I get under the house and someone had replaced some pipe...And they forgot rule 1 of plumbing:
1. Sh*t runs downhill
2. Payday is on friday
3. Do not chew fingernails

not running downhill the iron pipe was clogged and nasty....I poured concentrated sulphuric acid down there and it cleaned it out...But I needed to tear it up and replaced it making it so the grade was downhill all the way....

This is very frustrating for me...I am not and make no claim to be a plumber electrician or Carpenter...I have a hard time making sure my work gets done decently...rough for me to go back over someone else's work and fix mistakes...

In my opinion that means it must really be F**ked up! :o

And there are some electrical issues I need to address...I hate the feeling of 220 flowing through my body and I am scared to death of power now...But several things need to be cleaned up...Gross things even I can see need to be fixed. I have replaced and repaired one outlet and one light switch and rewired a ceiling fan....That is as far as I dare go with the power hooked up.

It is not at all going as I had planned...

It is a 2 sided monster...The more I work on it...The more I spend and the more time I spend working on the house the less time there is to make money...Which leaves me perpetually broke

I travel back and forth  4 hours almost between the 2 places a couple times a week....work on a customers car...Sell a car...Strip a car haul the carcass off to the crusher....And then drive back and spend all the money on the house...When money is gone I drive back to the other place and work to make more money...

Not what I was wanting.

I know we all have a sob story...*LOL*

The one good thing is that the neighbors house which is smaller on a smaller lot is for sale (pending) for $160k ..Sold in days... Makes us believe that we will get $200k or more for our place if we need to sell it...

By the time we have a greenhouse and grapes growing in the back yard I will never want to sell it though....Not only all the hard work...But you get a place just how you like it...It becomes part of you...A reflection of who you are...

Hard to say good bye to that and sell it.

Just because you are you Sassy I will try to take pictures of the finished laundry room...And maybe a few greenhouse action photos.... I am very proud of the Block press I made...I bought the cinva ram plans a few weeks ago...They came a week ago and I took an old air bottle jack and modified the plans so I am making blocks now with the air jack...It is faster easier and the blocks are compressed with a lot more pressure....
I just welded up a couple metal boxes the sizes I wanted... made a swinging top door and a false bottom.....Mounted the jack.....Mounted the box....
I can change the box to change the size of bricks with 4 bolts.
Cecilia is right the blocks are heavy...I have only made a few...I may need to make them smaller...The guy who was helping me refused to lift the blocks...
Dunno what they weighed...12x 18x 9 I bet they weigh 150 pounds each

benevolance

Also not sure about taking on a partner...Hard enough to work with my wife...And she took a vow "to love and obey....." ::)

Might be too much too soon for us financially...I hate to mortage the house to start renovating the warehouse if we bought it.

This would be a bad situation if it did not work out...We could lose our home...

Not sure if I want to go down that road....Debt is almost never a good idea.

Sure some number cruncher can tell you special cases where you save on your taxes and create write offs... or some such.... All seems too complicated for me...

Save part of what you make always....Learn to live on less than what you make...

keep saving and let that money work for you instead of you for it...

This has worked since biblical times...

I may have to just pass on this idea....Not sure I want to take on too much..And debt scares the hell out of me


glenn-k

#14
I had one major partnership where it was 50/50 control.  It was a disaster.  I had to buy him out for way more than the value of the company and he was still mad.  Worse than that - he insisted on going home at 5 while I worked until 1 the next morning nearly every night to pay the bills -- he elected himself "executive".

Even much new construction by big time contractors has major flaws - I have seen walls framed 3" out of square and plumb.  PEG wouldn't even think of doing something like that, but some of the others don't let it worry them.

So do the best you can with what you have to work with.  Take pictures of the good parts and don't worry about it -- don't be so anal. :)

Also - looking forward to seeing your Cinva ram pics and article. :)

Sassy

See all the helpful things you just posted?  ;)  All the problems you can run into with renovations - it will help others think through a project & be on the lookout for just those very problems.  

Then multiply that with the big warehouse...  :o  It is a beautiful building & would be wonderful to have IF you had the money & the time or could pay someone to fix... & partnerships are always "iffy"...

I'm with you on your home - if I'd done all that work I certainly would have a hard time selling it... it is a really charming home.   8-)

benevolance

Glenn

Well there is me being anal....And then there is me being married

I dunno how it works out on that coast...Back here I am expected to be able to fix anything and everything...And at the same time it has to look like new done by a professional

If it looked like some drunk guy did it in between beers I would be sleeping in the car....

I love this house and it has a lot of nice features...But I wish PEG had built it... Or someone that knew what they were doing and at the same time cared about quality control....

The cinva ram package for 50 bucks is mostly printouts of information I had already scrounged off the internet...There is a CD and some pictures of the parts needed to make a hand operated Cinva Ram

The girl that put it together is super nice and sent me follow up emails about questions I had...With more pictures... So I will say she knows her stuff and tries to be helpful...

$50 bucks well spent when you consider the extra help pictures and info...

Even if I decided to alter from the plans and design my own press... I used things I learned reading the package to come up with my own design

So much easier to hook up the air hose and  let the air jack do all the work!!!

Working a little smarter....I love my compressor

I am bummed out because I have blocks in the test cycle...Put a block in water for a day then let it dry out...and then put it back in water for a day...Do this 3-4 times to see if it will break down or if you got the pressure/mixture right and it is stabilized 100%....at the end of it you whack it with a hammer and listen for a metallic sound....If it is a go....You go nuts with mass producing....

Next week I am hoping to get a couple of days of block making.. enough to bank up the creek on my property and to build the greenhouse

Wife's cousin just came back from living in Germany...He is not working and a prime canidate to come visit...I have plans for him...A couple days of block making and he will not want to come visit ever again...*LOL*

If making block does not scare him I have a concrete pad in the backyard that needs to be broke up with a sledgehammer and a pick....Or send him 40+ feet up a couple of the oak trees with the chainsaw to trim limbs that are overhanging the roof of the house...

Why are all these fun jobs related to the house...

Why is it that I will likely do these things by myself alone without help?

Glenn on the partnership deal....I guess you have three options...Charge him for the extra time you work...At double time for all overtime....Punch him out...Or someone buys the other person out...

I had an employee here a year ago and we had some cars together as partners...Did not work out because I worked on them and he never touched them...Only he expected half the money...In the end the bastard came and took a load of parts and a car from my place...

I guess it was worth it to be rid of the guy... In life we learn these lessons the hard way

benevolance

Sassy

Well....I love the house...My wife and i  had originally planned to fix the house up and sell it in one year....And do three houses in three years and put the  profits (hopefully 200K) towards our retirement.

But as we discussed earlier...It is so personal to fix a place and make it a home...

I think that I would rather buy another fixer upper and sell it once it was fixed up...

I might just start doing that instead of parting out so many cars and travelling all over  the place... We have already seen a couple other homes close by that are bank repo homes...2 story brick 2500 sq feet or more...and cheap too...

So I might borrow against our home to buy one of them and then try to re-sell one a year all fixed up...

Go down create a name...Peter's house renovations or whatever...Treat it like a business...Pay myself something like $40 bucks an hour that way The capital gains is accurate....If you charge nothing for your time they figure it all as profit and you only get $250k exemption lifetime...

That is the big mistake on this house I made...I work my butt off and there is no paperwork for it...So if we sold the place in a year or whatever...It increases in value $150k....And The government is thinking that we made all this money...

yes we made money... but what about the time and money we spent on it...

Thankfully I kept the contractors estimates from the real estate lady when we bought the house....They wanted 15k to install upper and lower heating and ac....and they wanted 10k to replace the windows...8k to redo the floors

I plan to present this to any tax official that presses us about money made off the house...And say....well yes there is a 150k difference...But what about these repairs that were needed on the house....Here is a list from a certified contractor

Dunno if that will work or not? All I have for a plan at the current time

But the next one of these I do I will keep every gas receipt lunch receipt... you name it I am documenting it.