New siding and windows project

[duncanshannon]

I'm starting my first 'big' project at home.. 'in training' to build the cabin some day!

I had someone install new siding, new windows and replacement windows on half of my house last year.  I'm going to finish it.

I am trying to plan the work right now and I have some sequencing questions:

Goal: Reside (hardie) the east side of my house, replace 1 existing window and install 3 new ones.

I'll be working weekends and a couple week days here and there.

My question is... when in the process should I put in the new windows relative to the other house wrap, siding steps?  I'm trying to be conservative so I dont end up with too much exposed to the elements for any period of time.

1) remove old siding
2) put on new house wrap (cut and tape back around exisiting windows)
3) remove interior sheet rock, frame in new opening (leaving exterior untouched)
4) cut thru exterior (build rite and house wrap)
5) install new windows (inc. insulate, drywall, vapor barrier etc)
6) install replacement windows
7) apply siding
other finish detail (paint, caulk etc)

I guess my question is... can i / should I prep the interior parts of the window work (remove drywall, frame in new RO) before I start the exterior work... or after I rip off old and install house wrap.  So when its time to actually cut the hole in the house, I am well prepared and not a ton of work before drying it in.

thanks!

[PEG688]

  I'd say do the inside work first , remove D/W , install headers at new locations.  Then when you can put together a couple of days rip off the old siding on one side of the place, cut the RO's out , tear out any old windows on that wall / fill in any window holes that might be going away then repaper the walls , set the windows , properly detail the now set windows with the proper tape for the wrap you're using , then side when you are ready. The house could stay open to the weather once the wrap is installed for a few weeks if need be.  Of course all the wraps have a exposure time , so lets not get to crazy / lazy and leave the wrap exposed for months.   

[duncanshannon]

thanks for the reply  PEG688!

makes perfect sense... thanks much!  (i can get started now too... while its rainy spring).

[duncanshannon]

ok... so general work is sequenced. Windows are ordered!  (ouch).

Can someone point me to some good reading on how to size headers?  I'm going to be installing several new windows (new holes in the wall) and I need to read up on how to 'design' them.

I'll be installing one window next to another existing window. (40" wide x 64" tall)

I'll be installing two 4' wide x 18" high windows

I''ll be installing two 3' wide x 5' high (ish) windows on 2nd floor above a new 8' wide patio door.

a couple other replacement that are straight foward.

specific questions:

1) how do i size the headers for any of the openings

2) do i need to worry about the 2nd floor windows (2 3' windows 2' appart... 8' total) above an 8' wide patio on the 1st floor.

not asking for someone to do the work for me... i want to learn how to do it. where can/should I read!

[MountainDon]

The windows are in loading bearing walls I assume?

I, myself, do not know of any instruction books on this. There are the tables for headers in the IRC (page 138 in the MN IRC I keep refering to.) Indiscriminate use could lead one into trouble when one floor is over another, if a jack stud in the upper floor wall was positioned over a lower floor header, for example. That could require the lower floor header and jack studs to be up-sized and/or increased in number to properly (safely) carry the loads down. Looking at the big picture may also involve determining whether or not the wall with the new holes in it is still structurally sound for things like shear forces.

If you'd like to post a drawing illustrating the relationship of the upper floor windows to the lower floor windows and doors that would help anyone with advice.

[dug]

If unsure I don't think it would hurt anything to oversize, a couple of 2 by 12's should take care of about any situation and at not too much extra cost.

[duncanshannon]

I dont mind just going big if its safe.  It is a load bearing wall. 

here is a (terrible) laptop sketch of the relationship of the windows over the new sliding glass door...

the door is 8' wide

the 3 foot wide windows will be centered above the patio door and spaced 2' appart, so that the sides line up..

[MountainDon]

How wide is the house at that point?  
What is the snow load (PSF)?  
Are the floor joists supported in the center or are they clear spans?

Are the walls 2x4 or 2x6 framed?

[MountainDon]

this is more or less what the load paths would look like. What's the main floor sit on?

[duncanshannon]

How wide is the house at that point?  
What is the snow load (PSF)?  
Are the floor joists supported in the center or are they clear spans?

Are the walls 2x4 or 2x6 framed?

1) The side of the house you are looking at is about 34' long. its prob. 22' the other dimension. I'll measure tonite when I get home.

2) Snow load for my county, according to the state, is 50 psf.  (http://www.dli.mn.gov/CCLD/PDF/bc_map_snowload.pdf - I'm in hennepin county, just below the line on the east side of the state.

3) The joists are 2 x ? (at least 8, i think, will measure) and are supported in the middle of the house on a load bearing wall.  To that point, I also want to put a beam in the house, in that load bearing wall, that matches the slidng glass door in size and placement.

4) Main floor sits on a full height basement - blocks.

I thought i drew an funny smiley face... you made it even better

[MountainDon]

The patio door will be a new door cut into the wall?  

Look at Table R502.5(1), page 138 in the MN IRC referenced above. The first column lists the various combinations of weights that could be bearing on the item in question. The second column lists built up header sizes. Column 9 & 10 are for a building with a width of 20 feet. Column 9 is the first column in the 50 psf snow load section. Column 9 is the maximum span any one of those headers can support, when supporting all the items listed in column one. Column 10 is the number of jack studs required to support each end of that header.  Columns 11 & 12 are for a 28 foot wide building, 50 psf snow. Read the footnotes to see if there is anything important there.

The fact that the support studs for the upper floor windows intersect the lower patio door header MAY involve increasing the size of the lower header; maybe even require more jack studs. I am only GUESSING at that. I'm no engineer, however this might be a case where an engineers advice is needed in order to get a suitable safe header into that wall.

[PEG688]

  Again like  Mtn D asked are the walls 2x4 or  2x6?

If you can get a double 2 x 12 header above the windows and 8-0 patio door on a two story house you'll be fine , or a 4 x12 .

I'd  use as larger, up to 2x12, header as possible , on both floors , I'd recommend a continuous header / one header for the two windows on the 2nd floor  keeping the two floors stacked / one over another.

You'll need two trimmer on each end on any header  starting at 8-0 and up , but the two levels,  stacked with 2 x12 headers should be over kill.

 If the floor system is standard framing , not engineered "I" joist , you're not required to install "squash blocks" which amount to solid blocking at the point load locations , directly under the double trimmers , on both floors.   Even with standard joists no harm can come from adding the solid blocking in the joist bays.

 
Also I'm not sure how far out of the corner you are going to be and what you may be doing to the shear  / racking strength of that wall . I'm not sure if it's sheathed with plywood, solid boards / ship lap boards / builders board / 1 x4 diagonal bracing etc .  

What wind / seismic/ other zone you live in etc.

All those things are "players" in the walls ultimate strength.


 I also am not a engineer and Don P. may have more to add.


Good luck.

[Don_P]

I'm not an engineer either so take it for what it's worth. I can fill in a bit more on what we have so far from my understanding of the codebook end.

I like PEG's idea of bridging over the header below with a full length header above. This is a situation PEte warned about when using the codebook tables and MD's caution in the last paragraph of his post. If the upper windows were framed with seperate headers the inside jacks (trimmers) would point load the lower header at midspan. If we take a load and spread it out uniformly along a beam it produces a given bending force. If that same load is all piled in the middle of span it produces twice the bending force on the header. This condition would actually produce a blend of both those conditions, a uniform floor load with roof point loads from above. The codebook tables were set up using uniform loads.

Using PEG's solution we can look this up prescriptively in the tables. I'm looking at table 502.5(1)
Use the 50 psf columns. You are allowed to interpolate between building widths. The upper header would use the top of the table "Supporting roof and ceiling". It looks like the upper 8' span could be handled by a double 2x12 or triple 2x10, notice it requires 2 jacks under each end. A single jack at each end would likely crush into the header.

For the lower header to keep it conservative I would use the next table "Supporting roof, ceiling and one center bearing floor". Not an exact fit, this puts the roof loaf on the lower header which we should have already taken care of. We could check deeper, an engineer could probably shave this down, but this would keep it prescriptive. A triple 2x12 or four ply 2x10 on double jacks works by the table.

[PEG688]

A triple 2x12 or four ply 2x10 on double jacks works by the table.

What if the walls are 2x4?  I think a triple or four ply header would be over kill and the insulation one could add with a double header ( nailed / spiked together with 1/2 CDX  sandwiched between the 2 by's)  would be better use of the space IF the walls are 2x6.

It's only a 8'-0" RO , very do-able with a double 2x12 or 4x12 solid header I'd think .   If we where to stretch out to a    9'-0" opening we may start to have to look at added thickness and or width or move to a ParaLam ,  LVL or other higher strength member

[Don_P]

 I size beam dimensions by either consulting the code tables or by doing the math. The table was not a perfect fit but keeps it prescriptive. If I do the math my inspector will require that the design be stamped.  

Let's do some math and see if the lower header can be smaller. I'm going to assume the house is 24' wide, center bearing floor. This means the exterior header will support half of the 12' width between exterior wall and center bearing... 6'. I'll use 40 psf for the floor live load and 10 psf for the dead load. 6' x 50PSF= 300 lbs/foot of beam. The total load on the beam would be 300 plf x 8lf of beam= 2400 lbs. The proposed header in the center bearing wall would support twice this load if there is no roof load from above on it, only floor, 96 square feet x 50 psf= 4800 lbs.

The awc's WSDD manual publishes safe load tables. We're getting a little further out but I would still consider this a prescriptive table. A single 2x10 with Fb of 1400 or better and E of 1.1 or better will do the job. That's a fairly nice 2x10 in dougfir or SYP. A single 2x12 Fb>1000 and E>.64 also is listed, that is about anything. This takes care of the beam strength but doesn't address the end support.

PEte emailed this last night, and I agree, I missed a few other things.

If you need double trimmers (jack studs) at the jambs of the second story opening, you likely do need some extra vert. blocking under them in the second fl. joist depth to match the 3 stud area above. Then you need like vert. blocking btwn. the double top pl. and the first fl. header. And, then if the jambs are actually stacked, how many trimmers do you need in the first fl. wall, and what vert. blocking under them and onto the foundation sill plate? Hint, the jamb loads are additive as you move down. Remember...., Continuous Load Path to the Foundation for Concentrated Loads!

[PEG688]

I size beam dimensions by either consulting the code tables or by doing the math. The table was not a perfect fit but keeps it prescriptive. If I do the math my inspector will require that the design be stamped.  

Let's do some math and see if the lower header can be smaller. I'm going to assume the house is 24' wide, center bearing floor. This means the exterior header will support half of the 12' width between exterior wall and center bearing... 6'. I'll use 40 psf for the floor live load and 10 psf for the dead load. 6' x 50PSF= 300 lbs/foot of beam. The total load on the beam would be 300 plf x 8lf of beam= 2400 lbs. The proposed header in the center bearing wall would support twice this load if there is no roof load from above on it, only floor, 96 square feet x 50 psf= 4800 lbs.

The awc's WSDD manual publishes safe load tables. We're getting a little further out but I would still consider this a prescriptive table. A single 2x10 with Fb of 1400 or better and E of 1.1 or better will do the job. That's a fairly nice 2x10 in dougfir or SYP. A single 2x12 Fb>1000 and E>.64 also is listed, that is about anything. This takes care of the beam strength but doesn't address the end support.

PEte emailed this last night, and I agree, I missed a few other things.

  Can you put your post in plain English?


  I'm not trying to be a PITA here but what you typed above tells me nothing.  Are you talking about a single 2x10 DF / SYP #2 or better , NOT a doubled up header?  What that OVE framing??  What a disaster / dis-service / joke that "new aged" framing system is . IMO YMMV.

The problems with building that way are unlimited, no thought to how other parts ,((( siding , interior trim , windows , doors ,))  all integrate , or are integrated into the building is given. 

I'd dare say those houses will not last the long haul a building SHOULD last 200 years , todays buildings seem to be designed for maybe 30 years.

  I wish the OP would chime in what what the wall thickness is 2x4 / 2x6. But will add we've been building houses with 8'-0" openings for at least 50 years , with double trimmers on each end,  with a king stud  beside them , solid blocked in the standard joist bay or not , the rim the joist ends "generally"   are more than up to the task , (if framed the standard "old fashion way" ) to support the roof and floor loads on a two story house, given standard / or  "good"    building rules of thumb have been applied.

Stacking the point loads , providing a direct path to bearing , using doubled 2x12 headers , nailed together properly , should hold up even a Fairbanks , Alaska snow load , or name you city of choice Buffalo, N.Y. , Cleveland , Ohio , Boston ,Ma. .   Hundred of two and thrid story houses  are standing in those cities and have been for 200 years , using standard old fashion / good framing methods, the wood they used may be some what better on average , but still the new code requirements and "some" not all of this engineering we do today is nuts , adds to costs of building a home , and is so much over kill it's not funny any more.

So sez I a simple country carpenter . End of mini rant. no offense DonP your inputs here are very interesting , and they do follow the path we are on with dealing with building official's / departments, although it pains me greatly to have to deal with most of the morons and mainly the code book and the way they use it as a battering ram. The prescriptive code house is a boring house , IMO , YMMV.

So I guess it wasn't quite the end of my rant                  

[duncanshannon]

hi everyone-

thanks for all the discussion!

The house is 36' long (the side the NEW sliding glass door is going into) and 26' wide.

The main floor has trusses that i'd say are 2x10, but they measure 1.5" x 9 (and not 9.25).

The walls are 2x6 walls.

So it sounds like I should use double 2x12 above the door and the same thing above both windows (so a pair of 2x12x8 above the door and another pair above the windows on the 2nd floor.)

thanks!! you guys are incredible.

[PEG688]

-

The walls are 2x6 walls.

So it sounds like I should use double 2x12 above the door and the same thing above both windows


   (so a pair of 2x12x8 above the door and another pair above the windows on the 2nd floor.)

thanks!! you guys are incredible.

You'll need 10 foot 2x12's 8'-0" RO + 6" (double trimmers both ends = 8'-6" Net header lenght.

You are right this forum, and the members are,  pretty incredible 

Also note none of us are engineer's , you play at your own risk

[duncanshannon]

Hey folks-

I talked to the lumber yard and they offered up their services to calc the header sizes. They recommended two headers on the 2nd floor with lvl on the main floor. Calculated point loads were still well within tolerance.  I was glad to have the same conclusions (exception of 2 v 1). The discussion here really helped!!

On my other (east) side, I'll be installing 2 windows on 2nd floor and one on main.   That was pretty easy... Just 2-2x10 with single trimmer according to thenlumber yard.

I really enjoyed this exercise and felt kinda nerdy when I was enjoying reading the calcs from the yard!

[PEG688]

Hey folks-

I talked to the lumber yard and they offered up their services to calc the header sizes. They recommended two headers on the 2nd floor with lvl on the main floor. Calculated point loads were still well within tolerance.  I was glad to have the same conclusions (exception of 2 v 1). The discussion here really helped!!

On my other (east) side, I'll be installing 2 windows on 2nd floor and one on main.   That was pretty easy... Just 2-2x10 with single trimmer according to thenlumber yard.

I really enjoyed this exercise and felt kinda nerdy when I was enjoying reading the calcs from the yard!

  So two shorter headers? Is that what you mean by 2v1 headers?   The headers a are still laminated or double up right?

So if you've followed what Don and I have said the reason you have the LVL below is the point load you've got with the split headers on the second floor.

The other thing one header will do on the second floor is stiffen the wall a bit more then two headers separated  by a short space between the headers.

Good luck , glad the yard could help you out some on this. 

[duncanshannon]

Yep, 2-2x10 - one over each window on 2nd floor. Lvl on main - calcs showed plenty of capacity for the point loads.

I read in a black and decker "how-to" book that you should build a temp support wall if you are removing/cutting thru more than 1 stud in a load bearing wall. How do you guys determine what warrants a temp support wall?

It seems like a pretty reasonable step for cutting in an 8' door... Necessary for a 3' window? 3' window width, 31" RO, 1.5" trimmer each side is a 34" header right? 16" OC studs tells me to cut thru 2. Prob call the newly cut thru the trimmer and add a new king stud. Right? Need temp support wall for that?

What's the rule for gable ends? I want to say the guy who installed some windows For me last year put windows in both gable end walls and non-gable end - (both greater than 4' wide) all w/o any temp bracing.


Thx!

[PEG688]

  A 3-0 header I wouldn't worry about any support at all.


Even a bigger header you can get away with limited support if the right conditions exists.

Say a gable end about 20 feet across ,








  I picked up the point loads with the doubled 2x6's , then we cut the nails with a sawsall that held the rim joist to the subfloor and the top plates of the wall below.

When your cutting these nails if there any weight pressing down the blade will get pinched and not move , IF that happens you need to re -assess your temp support , if the blade move fairly easily thru the nails more than likely you can remove the  old wood and pretty quickly re-install the new header / rim / what ever.


 




This wall was sheathed with 7/16" OSB on the outside , and had sheet rock installed on the inside , it's a gable end with a truss roof , and even though the end truss is not a structural truss , there's not much weight pressing down .



So seeing we pulled the rim with no issues , why not the beam?



 

Look ma no beam!!



OK we'll put one back in,



  So the simple answer is "it depends" on a lot of things , type of wall , type of sheathing , on a older house with board sheathing and NOT plywood / OSB sheet goods a lot less can be removed , even a older house with sheet goods BUT LESS sheathing nails per sheet this would be risky , the sheathing makes the wall sort of a box beam , and if you move quickly , as in hours,  NOT DAYS , you can do what we did safely.


   


   

[duncanshannon]

hey peg-  cant believe i forgot to say thanks for the pics and example... very interesting.

I'm starting the interior demo for the new windows (removing sheet rock, framing in the RO's etc).

Two walls down, one more to go. 



This wall will be getting two 4' wide by about 18" high windows (total of 8' across) that will be above the bed.  The guy who put one windows in like this for me last year didnt open the whole wall and as far as I can tell didnt frame it to code because he didnt use jack studs.  He did extend the header beyond the window to the next stud on either side. he said this is pretty normal for new windows in an existing wall.

i didnt think I wanted to do it that way, so i removed all the sheet rock and am going to frame in the windows properly.  am i crazy?

One thing... as you may be able to see in this picture the electrical runs across the wall. I need to install jack studs... what do I do with the wire? Im hoping the answer isint remove more drywall and expose the outlet (right side), pull the wire, install the jack studs (4, for 2 windows), drill new holes and run the wire over.

Here is the 2nd wall i've opened up - replacing the one window you see and putting in one to the left of it:



Same electrical questions there.

Opening up the remaining wall tomorrow, removing a fireplace and starting on building the headers. 

[PEG688]

   #1:   The guy who put one windows in like this for me last year didnt open the whole wall and as far as I can tell didnt frame it to code because he didnt use jack studs.  He did extend the header beyond the window to the next stud on either side. he said this is pretty normal for new windows in an existing wall.




One thing... as you may be able to see in this picture the electrical runs across the wall. I need to install jack studs... what do I do with the wire? Im hoping the answer isint remove more drywall and expose the outlet (right side), pull the wire, install the jack studs (4, for 2 windows), drill new holes and run the wire over.

#1: Pretty common doesn't mean it's right!  Even if the header is longer than the window is wide you should have jack studs , or at least a Simpson clip under the header, if the header is only toe nailed into the king stud that's a pretty weak header.

#2:  What you could do is use the the two last inner common studs as trimmers , leave a stud wider than the window is as the king stud , the next stud in could be trimmed in place to become a jack, cut it free top and bottom and from the sheathing , slide it left or right over the the "new" king stud .   This would make you short of cripples under the sill  , but those could be notched to accommodate the wire without significantly weakening  the wall .

Another though would be to turn off the circuit , cut the wire and add two outlets spread apart on that wall , as you wouldn't have enough wire to cut it and  add just one  outlet box unless the guy who pulled the wire left a lot of slack.  You did say abed was going under these windows so a outlet on either side of the bed might be a nice bonus! Of course you need to buy two electrical  boxes and some wire. but it would be pretty simple to do.

[duncanshannon]

#1 - should i be worried or doing anything?  i dont think there were any brackets etc.  he talked about lots of screws and perhaps an extra horizontal 2x4 on the bottom of the window or something.    disappointing cause i told him several times i wanted things to code.  there was a permit, but didnt identify 'new' windows vs replacement windows.



#2 - I think i get the general idea you are talking about here.  "What you could do is use the the two last inner common studs as trimmers , leave a stud wider than the window is as the king stud , the next stud in could be trimmed in place to become a jack, cut it free top and bottom and from the sheathing , slide it left or right over the the "new" king stud" - but i read it a couple times and didn't 100% follow you... can you explain a bit more?

#3 - I like the idea of cutting the wire and adding -2- outlets. There is already one on the right hand side.. does it matter that there would now be two outlets 16" appart other than perhaps look a little odd?