Off Grid Berm Home In The TN Mountains

[lisaandmike]

Hello everyone.  I am new to your site and I wish I found you a year ago.  I have been reading and enjoying so many of your stories and I still have so many more to read.  It is fantastic to be able to see and learn from each other. 

I started a thread last year and I write in at least once a week with a detailed progress of the building of our Off Grid home.  My husband Mike and I found our private piece of land and started building last summer.  We moved in in October even though it wasn't completely finished but we did make it before the winter.  This year we still have so much to do but it is more about finishing and modifications.  Who doesn't have those, LOL?

So if any of you are interested please check out our story.  I'm sorry I have no way of transferring it over because it is just too long.  Here is the link:
http://www.city-data.com/forum/tennessee/359683-going-off-grid-east-tennessee.html


Have a great night,
Lisa

[poppy]

Lisa, I have really enjoyed your build thread; 15 pages so far.

The cow paths along the hill sides remind me of the farm I grew up on.

I had to laugh when I read that your new house is small.   It's bigger than the starter home we had with 2 kids and a cat.  It will be interesting to see how the off-grid system keeps up.

I was glad to see that your house site is not completely on top of the property, so there is a little shelter from the north while still having a killer view.

I had designs to build an earth sheltered home, but since my property is all north facing, I am going with post/pier.

[phalynx]

Mike and Lisa's "adventure" is a fun thread indeed.  I have followed it from the beginning.  They do have a nice piece of land.  Sooooo jealous.

[HomeschoolMom]

I am so excited to read this thread...although it seems to be a book.     We are thinking of going on the road this spring and we also have the desire for an earth berm in our future!

[HomeschoolMom]

Ok, I skimmed all of it!   I have a bum knee so what better excuse to sit here with my knee elevated most of the day?

I got so excited when I saw your mono pitched roof...I want to do the same thing but I will have the high side facing the south.  We are in Michigan and I can see the passive solar being helpful and we have no plans for solar.  But then again, I watched your solar plans change so many times.  That was the best part of the thread, whatching the changes.  It was so "real life".  (I know, it is real life)  I think some would be inclined to just give the prettier version.

Your land is absolutely beautiful!  Congrats on a great house.

[lisaandmike]

Thank you for writing back.

Poppy-The cow paths really do make it easier to walk around our property.

Keep reading and you will find out how our solar did after the 3 changes to our system, lol.

I actually think our house is big especially since we lived in a motor home for 3 1/2 years.  But to many of today's American's our house is small.


phalynx- Thanks for posting.   I can't wait to see the pics when you and your wife start your project.


HomeschoolMom- Sorry to hear about your knee.  I'm glad I was able to entertain you, lol.  Thank you for the compliment.  I want our story to be real through all the good and bad and even our mistakes.  That's how we learn.  I wish I had seen some other people's mistakes before we started, lol.  Oh yeah, I'm too blunt to give you the pretty version.  Thank you for writing back.


Lisa   

[Bishopknight]

What was your strategy in dealing with the bermed side? Did you install a membrane and french drain? How about backfilling, what type of dirt did you use?

Did you use a vertical drainage sheet like Enkadrain or MiraDrain?

I ask because I'm preparing for these steps myself on my Earth Sheltered house.

[lisaandmike]

What was your strategy in dealing with the bermed side? Did you install a membrane and french drain? How about backfilling, what type of dirt did you use?

Did you use a vertical drainage sheet like Enkadrain or MiraDrain?

I ask because I'm preparing for these steps myself on my Earth Sheltered house.

Hi, I will try to answer your questions.

When we planned our house we had never seen a berm house before so we never knew about the "wings" to keep the dirt in place.  So at first we had the home site dug out which took 1/2 a day.  Then the concrete crew came in.  They prepared the footers first and then started work on our 10 foot tall and 10 inch thick poured concrete walls.  Once the walls were up the back drain pipe was put in.  Not a french drain.  It runs from the middle of the top of the back of our house and down to ground level,
then it splits and runs around both sides and out to the front of our house which is all down hill.  The 4" drain pipe has gravel with cloth on top and bottom . The digging out of our site and all the concrete work was done in less than a week.  You can see all of this in Chapter 3 of my story.  You have to scroll sideways because at that time I was new at posting pictures to a story.

Our foundation was sprayed with a rubber membrane and covered with insulation board.  My DH doesn't like the idea of nailing holes into the concrete so we didn't use a drainage sheet.  We also dry locked the inside walls.


We didn't use any special dirt to backfill.  We used what we have on our land.  We then seeded and curlexed the hill in hopes of it growing in quickly.  Well that didn't work out as planned and we had some wash out.  So we bought those big concrete retainer blocks and made a wall to keep the dirt in place.  Over the winter between the freezing temps and warming up they slid forward a few inches.  Finally we had remove those blocks and dig out some more dirt to have concrete walls poured.  Hopefully we are on the right track this time.  Like I said we never saw a berm or an off grid home before and we decided to build this way about a week after we closed on our property.  Not too much tome to plan.  My DH likes to learn from life's lessons.  Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, lol, but it is always interesting.

I hope that answers your questions.  have a good night.

Lisa

[soomb]

Lisa, glad to see you made it over here.  I have been reading your post on City data for months.  I think your story along with that of SpeedFunk and BishopKnight, will really open peoples eyes to the use of eath as temperature control.

Craig- (Small and Solar on CityData)

[poppy]

Lisa, I made it through all 148 pages of your story and I must say it is impressive.

Neil Armstrong said this week that he was just an ordinary man who did extraordinary things and was a very lucky man.  It seems to me that you and Mike could say a similar thing.

You did amazing things in a very short time frame, and documented and shared it all, the good, the bad, and the ugly.  Perhaps most impressive to me is that you shared your failures along with the successes. I don't know that I will be able to do the same on my build.

So now, having buttered you up, I can't resist making some comments that perhaps others have made and I missed.  You have been very patient with everyone in answering questions and concerns, even if they are repeated.  Please don't feel obligated to satisfy this old gezzer with a detailed response.

1.  I must say that I was a little dismayed when I saw the house walls being poured.  The first thing I mentioned to my wife about your build was that the front wall wings turned in instead of out.    Earth berming 101 says to put in wing retaining walls that match the backfill slope.  I was very relieved to learn and see that you corrected that little oversight.

2.  You have already modified the solar panel layout a number of times, including finally putting some tilt towards the south.  I still don't quite understand the low angle, but then I haven't looked at a solar chart for your part of TN.  I'm sure you have a valid reason for the final layout.

3.  I concur with several others on doing everything possible to avoid moisture infiltration.  I don't have specific tips, but I couldn't help but wonder what else was happening behind the walls when Mike was repairing some dry wall cracks.

4.  I would be interested to know how the fresh air vent beside the stove is working out.  There doesn't seem to be any agreement in the housing industry on air make-up in a relatively air-tight house.

5.  I now understand why the house faces SW and it appears to be a sound decision, but I don't understand the lack of a large overhang on the front.  Window/door glazing shading 101 says to fully shade the glazing for the noon summer sun and fully let the light shine in for the noon winter sun.  Since you don't have A/C, how are you preventing solar heating in the summer?  And are you getting enough light without any windows?

6.  I'm sure it wasn't funny at the time, but I had to laugh at the culvert fiasco.  I would lay a dollar to a donut that the culvert, if engineered, would be larger.  I have a down hill neighbor whose culvert clogs every year, mostly from leaves.  My culvert is only 20 ft. upstream and it never clogs while handling about 400 ft. of ditch.  Simply put, his culvert is too small.

7.  My dad's teaching on fence building was a little different than what you all did, but yours looks good and should be functional.  Have you considered cattle crossings instead of gates up by the house?

8.  I don't have any knowledge or experience on waste water venting, but I would surely listen to the experts on this one.

9. It seems that you have encountered the problem with wind turbines and hills.  That is my concern as well, although my neighbor has 2 or 3 small turbines on very high towers.

Now if you ever decide to write a book with helpful do's and don't's, here is a couple of comments:

1.  The photos in your early chapters are better for publishing because they show you working and not posing.  The later pics. are fine for a forum like this and I enjoyed them, but even semi-professional how-to publications don't have workers mugging for the camera.

2.  One of my pet peeves in the construction world is misplaced technical terms.  I don't think you did this much, but I seem to recall that concrete was called cement a couple of times.  One couldn't get by with calling bread or dough, "flour", and shouldn't get by calling concrete cement.

3.  While on the subject of concrete, when the workers were finishing the patio, you showed a photo of what was described as an expansion joint.  That was a contraction joint, which when scored with a shallow groove, creates a path for a crack to form, allowing the sections to shrink apart, without an ugly crack.  One sees expansion joints between two separately poured concrete sections that are subject to differing expansion/contraction rates; like at the approach of a bridge, or between a slab and a foundation.  There would be a fiberous mat of some type in this joint that allows the opposing sections to expand towards each other while keeping most water out of the joint.

There you have my 2 cents and it is worth exactly what you paid for it.

I admire your spirit and am even a little jealous of your shared interests.  Here's wishing you well, and I will continue to follow your story.

[Mike 870]

Lisa and Mike,

I have been reading your thread for the past couple of days (I'm on page 118).  You're doing what I have always wanted to do.  Congrats on livin the dream.  You guys have a million dollar view there.

The only thing I noticed that hasn't been addressed by you guys, and someone else pointed this out, is the need for a diversion, or dump load for your windmills.  You may have fixed this since I'm only on page 118, but I believe without a dump load you will either overcharge your batteries or burn out your windmills generator.  A dump load can be something like an electric hot water heater, or a hot tub etc.  Someplace for the extra energy produced by your windmills to go once your battery bank is full. 

[lisaandmike]

You did amazing things in a very short time frame, and documented and shared it all, the good, the bad, and the ugly.  Perhaps most impressive to me is that you shared your failures along with the successes. I don't know that I will be able to do the same on my build.

Thanks.  I think more people should share their failures and maybe we would all have less failures, lol.  I certainly don't pretend to be perfect.

1.  I must say that I was a little dismayed when I saw the house walls being poured.  The first thing I mentioned to my wife about your build was that the front wall wings turned in instead of out.    Earth berming 101 says to put in wing retaining walls that match the backfill slope.  I was very relieved to learn and see that you corrected that little oversight.  

Well that was the problem, lol.  We never read or even heard of earth berming 101 and still haven't.  We just like to jump in and live things by our rules whether right or wrong.  It makes for a very interesting life.

2.  You have already modified the solar panel layout a number of times, including finally putting some tilt towards the south.  I still don't quite understand the low angle, but then I haven't looked at a solar chart for your part of TN.  I'm sure you have a valid reason for the final layout.

Not too sure what you mean.   It works very well for us.  Mike believes in the saying "if it ain't broke then don't fix it"  We are very happy with the power we produce.

3.  I concur with several others on doing everything possible to avoid moisture infiltration.  I don't have specific tips, but I couldn't help but wonder what else was happening behind the walls when Mike was repairing some dry wall cracks.

I believe that was a gutter leak on the front wall where we had a missed screw hole.  

4.  I would be interested to know how the fresh air vent beside the stove is working out.  There doesn't seem to be any agreement in the housing industry on air make-up in a relatively air-tight house.

Do you mean the propane fireplace?  That was our biggest mistake although we love the way it looks.  We had no idea how much humidity the FP would throw off in our air tight house.  I wish the propane company had given us a heads up, lol.  The air vent improved it but this year we will add a smaller vented heater and maybe a wood burning stove.  The FP has to go.  That was our original plan.  Sometimes the first plan is the best.  Live and learn, lol.

5.  I now understand why the house faces SW and it appears to be a sound decision, but I don't understand the lack of a large overhang on the front.  Window/door glazing shading 101 says to fully shade the glazing for the noon summer sun and fully let the light shine in for the noon winter sun.  Since you don't have A/C, how are you preventing solar heating in the summer?  And are you getting enough light without any windows?

The house stays cool enough without any A/C.  We actually just ordered awnings for the doors since the doors hit the hardest by the sun around 4pm.  We will see how that works.  If we need to add a porch at some later date we will.  Then we will need to do the solar tubes for the back rooms.  So far we have no trouble with the light in the house.

6.  I'm sure it wasn't funny at the time, but I had to laugh at the culvert fiasco.  I would lay a dollar to a donut that the culvert, if engineered, would be larger.  I have a down hill neighbor whose culvert clogs every year, mostly from leaves.  My culvert is only 20 ft. upstream and it never clogs while handling about 400 ft. of ditch.  Simply put, his culvert is too small.

Ha, ha.  Yeah that was our own dumb mistake.  We actually know better about culverts but we just never checked it after it was put in.  That won't happen again, lol.  We are actually on schedule for a rock delivery so we can line the ditches.  That will hold back the majority of the mud.


7.  My dad's teaching on fence building was a little different than what you all did, but yours looks good and should be functional.  Have you considered cattle crossings instead of gates up by the house?

I like the gate up top because no one can come through.  There is only one way in and one way out.

8.  I don't have any knowledge or experience on waste water venting, but I would surely listen to the experts on this one.

I believe there is just a difference of opinion.  Mike has built and lived in 3 houses(including this one) with no problems. 


9. It seems that you have encountered the problem with wind turbines and hills.  That is my concern as well, although my neighbor has 2 or 3 small turbines on very high towers.
We had problems with our wind turbines from the mounting poles we used.  We also decided they didn't produce anywhere near the power we thought they would.  For us more solar panel would be the way to go and they are easier to maintain.


Now if you ever decide to write a book with helpful do's and don't's, here is a couple of comments:

1.  The photos in your early chapters are better for publishing because they show you working and not posing.  The later pics. are fine for a forum like this and I enjoyed them, but even semi-professional how-to publications don't have workers mugging for the camera. Yeah we have some regulars that like some of the extra pictures especially the cows and Niki.


2.  One of my pet peeves in the construction world is misplaced technical terms.  I don't think you did this much, but I seem to recall that concrete was called cement a couple of times.  One couldn't get by with calling bread or dough, "flour", and shouldn't get by calling concrete cement.
Sorry about that.   I make no claim to knowing any construction terms and I am always willing to listen to good advice.  If a book ever gets written it would be fixed.


3.  While on the subject of concrete, when the workers were finishing the patio, you showed a photo of what was described as an expansion joint.  That was a contraction joint, which when scored with a shallow groove, creates a path for a crack to form, allowing the sections to shrink apart, without an ugly crack.  One sees expansion joints between two separately poured concrete sections that are subject to differing expansion/contraction rates; like at the approach of a bridge, or between a slab and a foundation.  There would be a fiberous mat of some type in this joint that allows the opposing sections to expand towards each other while keeping most water out of the joint.

Thanks for the lesson.



There you have my 2 cents and it is worth exactly what you paid for it.

I admire your spirit and am even a little jealous of your shared interests.  Here's wishing you well, and I will continue to follow your story.

Thanks so much for reading our whole story and taking notes.  I hope I answered most of your questions.  Mike tends to do things his own way so we do some things a little differently than most, lol.  Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.  The solar company told us we couldn't run our inverter without the mate but we do.  So sometimes even the experts have no idea.  Mike would rather rely on himself and do it his own way.  he finds then that when he does get it right he "really" comprehends it.  Me I just follow his lead and try to write the story, lol.

Have a great night.

Lisa

[poppy]

Lisa, you went above and beyond the call of duty in answering my post.  Much more detailed than I expected. 

You and Mike both obviously give extensive attention to detail, and that I admire very much.  Our younger generation could learn a thing or three from folks like you all.

A most interesting attribute of your work is that while taking care of the details, you don't marry yourself to any one design or method.  You seem to have the capacity to change course in mid-stream or switch to plan B or C or whatever.

Most ordinary folks would not even attempt what you are doing, let alone be successful at it, and then let the world in to see it all.

I research, and then research some more; then I modify, rethink and modify again.  I have lost count of how many changes have been made to the cabin design, and I'm not even out of the ground yet.

On the other hand, I expect to be successful in my build, partly by getting inspiration and good information from builders like you and others on this site.

The American spirit is alive and well in TN.

And now for a couple of brief comments on your answers.

2.  No need to argue with success on the solar system.  I may never install solar because I would try to make it perfect.

4.  Yea, I meant the FP.  I'm still a little confused, not understanding how any fuel burner can give off humidity, but you are living with it, so you know what's happening.  I've already bought the stove/fireplace that I'll be using; a Sears Franklin fireplace.  Wood is your friend.

5.  If you do decide to put a porch on the front a roof with slats angled so that they block the summer sun without blocking the winter sun might be a consideration.  Of course, it won't keep out the rain.

Good luck to you and maybe you will honor me by checking out my build thread.

[Dog]

Hi...
I FINALLY made it through your entire thread. It's like reading a good book that you can't put down!
The earth berm and solar energy is extremely interesting. Glad 58 didn't become steak and yes, I agree, that was a very cool shot of the backhoe up off the ground! The pics are wonderful. 
You guys are doing a great job working with the land. It's beautiful.

[Phssthpok]

..........I'm still a little confused, not understanding how any fuel burner can give off humidity, but you are living with it, so you know what's happening.

Any carbon based fuel will release SOME H2O along with CO2, CO, and various other gaseous compounds when it is burned. Ever see water dripping out of a tail pipe?

Since the house was described as 'air tight' it stands to reason that if you perpetuate a carbon fuel combustion process, you will be pumping H2O into a room with no outlet along with these other gases. Unlike those other gases though, water has a tendency to condense into liquid form at room temperature, making it inherently more difficult to evacuate without taking all the heated air with it.

[poppy]

Ever see water dripping out of a tail pipe?

Sure, before the engine warms up, but if I run that engine in a confined space, water or water vapor won't be a problem, because the CO will have already killed me.

I guess I'm not convinced that water vapor exhaust from a propane FP would be an issue with proper venting to get rid of CO, which should also get rid of the H₂O.

You may be absolutely correct in what you report; I'm just trying to understand and learn.

[Phssthpok]

Ever see water dripping out of a tail pipe?

Sure, before the engine warms up, but if I run that engine in a confined space, water or water vapor won't be a problem, because the CO will have already killed me.

I guess I'm not convinced that water vapor exhaust from a propane FP would be an issue with proper venting to get rid of CO, which should also get rid of the H₂O.

You may be absolutely correct in what you report; I'm just trying to understand and learn.

True....but does carbon monoxide condense to a liquid at room temperature?

Remember...humidity in the air (gaseous form) is not what we humans are generally referring to when we talk about 'moisture' problems.....it's the condensate FROM the humidity in the air. The water dripping off your glass as it were.

'Wet' air feels warmer, 'dry' air feels cooler. In the winter time, it is actually desirable to raise the humidity in the room to reduce heating costs. Th's why a lot of old-timer would have a cast iron 'kettle' on the stove or fireplace in the winter, and why my parents in Florida have a de-humidifier inline with their air conditioner.

In a traditional stick built home this isn't as much of an issue due to the walls being more closely aligned in temperature with the air...no cold surface for the moisture to condense on. With a concrete wall, it will tend to assume the same temp as the earth behind it, as it becomes part of the thermal mass of the hill. Depending on where you live this tends to run in the mid to upper 50 degree range if I recall correctly. So if you heat your house to say, 70 degrees with a fuel source that adds moisture to the air, and you have a large surface area that's 15-20 degrees cooler, the water will tend to condense on that surface.

It is this condensate that is hard to remove through ventilation (once the air is saturated, it doesn't want to evaporate), and that causes problems. Sure you could completely replace the air in any given space every hour in order to sweep out all the humidity, but you'd be taking all the heat in the air with it...not very economical if the whole point was to heat the room in the first place.

Now....if you were to find some way to either insulate that thermal mass from the room air, or better yet modulate the surface temp of the wall through hydronic circulation, you could prevent the condensation, and the excess moisture would most likely  be evacuated with normal circulation of the air.

[poppy]

OK, this has now gone completely over my head; plus we should probably back off from hi-jacking Lisa's thread.

[speedfunk]

I believe that Lisa and Mike insulated behind the concrete with 2" extruded polystyrene though.  So really that interior concrete would become the same temp as interior temp eventually and the insulation shields the relatively cool earth from contact with humid air, so how would it condense? I'll have to re-read 128 pages worth lol.   

I don't understand your point about water condensing at room temp?     .   I may over simplify this but if it's humid and not raining and it's 70 out doesn't that disprove that ?

I also thought that the kettle was just to make up for the way the wood stove drys out the house. 

BTW Thanks lisa for sharing ...  I found your post a while back from homesteadingtoday .  WELCOME!

[MountainDon]

  story. Very nice place.

2.  You have already modified the solar panel layout a number of times, including finally putting some tilt towards the south.  I still don't quite understand the low angle, but then I haven't looked at a solar chart for your part of TN.  I'm sure you have a valid reason for the final layout.

There is a rule of thumb for PV panel tilt. That is for winter (December 21) the angle should be your latitude PLUS 15 degrees. For summer (June 21) the angle would be your latitude LESS 15 degrees. TN is about the same latitude as NM, 35 to 36 degrees more or less depending on where in the state you are. Therefore winter = approximately 50 degrees and summer = approximately 20 degrees. Angles are measured from the horizontal.

In most locations winter sunshine is less than in summer. So if you do not wish to get into seasonal adjustments, optimize the installation for the winter.

For those who are more anal about things like this (moi   ) there is a more accurate formula. Take the latitude and multiply it by 0.9. Then add 29. That provides me with a winter optimum tilt of 61 1/8 degress. [35.75 lat x .9 plus 29]

The angles apply to all things solar, PV panels as well as hot water heaters, etc.

Note: the 15 degrees figure is common, although I have seen articles that use up to 20 degrees. 

[NM_Shooter]

Wow.  Those rolling hills are gorgeous.  More pictures please.

[poppy]

Thanks MountainDon for the info. on solar panel angles.  I thought those panels seemed to have too shallow an angle for the winter sun.

I am further north, but the installations I have seen around here have a pretty steep angle to the horizontal.

If you really wanted to be anal, I suspose one could "track" the sun.