Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)

[OlJarhead]

So here are my latest challenges:

1.  Fix the inlet and outlet connections at the Cistern.  (need proper fittings for that)
2.  Install the float valve (pretty simple) and a penetration (water proof) for the wiring to exit through.
3.  Install manhole cover riser to bring cover to grade (or just above).
4.  Install UG foam insulation above Cistern for frost protection.
5.  Find out if I need to insulate the manhole cover to prevent freezing??
6.  Install spigot on water main (temporary) and hose to orchard location for watering trees.
7.  Get garden timer to water trees off Cistern
8.  Set timer on well pump to refill cistern after each watering until float valve is hooked up.

I also need to learn more about the siphoning action of the system and how it works and can be improved (if possible).  Also if I can install a 12vdc RV pump into the line at the cabin to increase water pressure without the need of another tank?  After all, it will just draw off the cistern right?  But it is over 300 feet away and 40 feet above...hmmmm

With the water issue resolved I then have to learn how to put up a good barbed wire fence!


Ahhhhh cabin life!

[MountainDon]

1. Look for "bulkhead fitting".

I've bought from these guys.

I've used both the traditional screw together ones and the Uniseal. Uniseal are good where it's not under dirt cover, IMO; hanging free in the air.

[MountainDon]

300 feet away and 40 feet above...

RV water pumps suck at lifting water. Or maybe that's RV pumps don't suck very good.   


Six or seven foot max lift on the Shurflo we have, IIRC,  and that is really pushing its ability. It pushes water higher but I've never tried to see how high. Yes, it does lift a few feet, but it does it very slowly; the output flow is low and the pump makes more noise. My experience has been that an RV water pump inlet should be at the same level as the bottom of the tank feeding it.

[OlJarhead]

RV water pumps suck at lifting water. Or maybe that's RV pumps don't suck very good.   


Six or seven foot max lift on the Shurflo we have, IIRC,  and that is really pushing its ability. It pushes water higher but I've never tried to see how high. Yes, it does lift a few feet, but it does it very slowly; the output flow is low and the pump makes more noise. My experience has been that an RV water pump inlet should be at the same level as the bottom of the tank feeding it.

OK but what if it is 40 feet BELOW the bottom of the tank feeding it?

[OlJarhead]

1. Look for "bulkhead fitting".

I've bought from these guys.

I've used both the traditional screw together ones and the Uniseal. Uniseal are good where it's not under dirt cover, IMO; hanging free in the air.

Thanks - mine is under dirt so I need to find the right kind for that application -- I'll check them out.

[MountainDon]

This series

The fitting halves screw together and then pipe fitting screw into it from both sides. Lots of sizes.

[OlJarhead]

Found this: http://www.tank-depot.com/productdetails.aspx?part=FA0100PO

and this: http://www.tank-depot.com/engineerdata/fitting-installation.pdf

And read this:

A plastic tank must be operated at atmospheric pressure (air must enter and exit the tank as it is filled and
emptied).

This lead me to wonder if I have too small a vent on my cister?  The vent that was installed in the side is a 1/2" pipe and the inlet is 1 1/4" and the outlet is 1".

There is also a 1 1/2" pipe installed in the manhole cover/lid that is capped off but the cap is not sealed.  The bottom of the pipe is drilled as if to allow air to enter the tank but the holes are at the bottom of the pipe so they would be submerged -- leaving me to believe the purpose was for checking water level not venting.

Anyway, I'm thinking that I should install a much larger vent (1 1/4") to ensure pressure is atmospheric and well balanced between the inlet/outlet -- am I over thinking this?

[OlJarhead]

Here is one that really has me wondering -- and doing this: 

How do I activate the siphon on my cistern once I fix the connections at the tank?  The pipe is empty so there is no water in it down to the Frost Free Spigot/Hydrant so I can't open that up to get the suction working and the pipe in the cistern is not flexible so I can't just pour water into it and then place inside the tank.

So what to do?  Put a shop vac on the spigot?  Seriously!  I'm lost here.

[MountainDon]

OK but what if it is 40 feet BELOW the bottom of the tank feeding it?

If the pump was pushing water up 40 feet vertically I would think there would be a pressure loss at least equal the gravitational induced pressure caused by the head... 0.43 x 40 feet = 17.2 PSI. Then I'd think there would be some friction loss in pressure from the 500 foot distance horizontally. If the RB pump puts out 40 PSI that may leave enough pressure to work. We run our house on 25 PSI and I'll admit the flow is slower than we'd have if I adjusted the pressure up.

[MountainDon]

We use a 1/2" diameter pipe for a vent and have never had a pumping issue. Air flows easier than fluids. Plus I have a shrubbery irrigation bubbler as an insect screen and that restricts the air flow I'm sure. (Bubbler control screw is removed so it can't somehow be closed)

[MountainDon]

I installed a bulkhead fitting in the lid to permit dipping to check water level with a wood stick.

[MountainDon]

Further note on the pusher pump..... that line would be below frost line? But how to protect the pump from freezing.


Siphon...   Or you pressurize the cistern for a minute or two to force water "over the hump" 

[OlJarhead]

If the pump was pushing water up 40 feet vertically I would think there would be a pressure loss at least equal the gravitational induced pressure caused by the head... 0.43 x 40 feet = 17.2 PSI. Then I'd think there would be some friction loss in pressure from the 500 foot distance horizontally. If the RB pump puts out 40 PSI that may leave enough pressure to work. We run our house on 25 PSI and I'll admit the flow is slower than we'd have if I adjusted the pressure up.

I think you're confused.

1.  I have a sureflo 24vdc well pump that pushes the water INTO the cistern (up from the well water level to the Cistern - can be over 100')
2.  Water is then fed via siphon/gravity to the spigot down by the cabin.

I'm asking if I put an RV pump at the spigot by the cabin will it increase flow since it will be sucking DOWN from the Cistern.

Only lift it needs to do is from where it's installed (ground floor level) to the shower head).

[OlJarhead]

Further note on the pusher pump..... that line would be below frost line? But how to protect the pump from freezing.


Siphon...   Or you pressurize the cistern for a minute or two to force water "over the hump" 

I was thinking that might be the answer -- to pump until the water is above the level of the outlet but wasn't sure.

Once it's fixed it will probably work better then it did this weekend!

[OlJarhead]

Further note on the pusher pump..... that line would be below frost line? But how to protect the pump from freezing.

Pump installed under the sink or similar -- drain cock below the pump, water main shut off below frost line.

Just turn off the water, drain the lines and leave   Like using an RV system

[OlJarhead]

We use a 1/2" diameter pipe for a vent and have never had a pumping issue. Air flows easier than fluids. Plus I have a shrubbery irrigation bubbler as an insect screen and that restricts the air flow I'm sure. (Bubbler control screw is removed so it can't somehow be closed)

Good to know, thanks.

This is what caught my eye:

If 3" or 4" outlets are used or rapid
dispensing is possible, an additional vent fitting should be considered.

I was thinking that I might need a little more due to the amount of 'suction' as the siphon draws water down the long pipe to the spigot.

[MountainDon]

I think you're confused.

Yes, I was confused.  That's why pictures and drawings are my best friend.   

I think the RV pump should be happy as a booster pump.  Seems logical, for what that's worth.

[OlJarhead]

[MountainDon]

I think, in theory, it should work.

A limiting factor may be the ability of the 1" pipe to deliver the volume of water needed by the pump.   Is the pump going to suck water away from the inlet pipe faster than gravity can replace it?  I have no idea if that is a factor. Just something that comes to my mind. It won't be any problem if the natural gravity flow at the end of that 1" pipe, in GPM, at least matches the GPM maximum flow of the pump. I think.

[OlJarhead]

Hmmm....I was thinking the problem would be the power of the pump to draw water from so far away?  Otherwise it would just keep the gravity pressure the same and do nothing....maybe??

Basically the pipe goes over 300 feet from the spigot to the Cistern so the RV pump would have to suck water from the cistern at a faster rate then gravity already provided in order to increase pressure to 30PSI or better.

Perhaps I'm asking too much of an RV pump and would need something a little more powerful 

[OlJarhead]

I should not that my reason for asking this is that I want to install an instant on propane hot water system and learned that I needed greater water pressure for it to work -- like 30-35psi -- which lead me to ask these questions.

I guess the next best think might be to install a small propane fired hot water tank instead.

Another issue I have ( ) is that I ran my hot water lines OUT the back wall of the cabin.  At the time I was thinking that was the best option for what I wanted to do.  Now, today, I'm doing this  and wishing I'd resolved the issue BEFORE putting up dryway etc.

So, what to do???  I think the answer is to pull them back in, seal the holes and cut open the dryway (since it isn't finished anyway) then run the pex over to the kitchen (perhaps under the floor and heavily insulated and heat traced) where I can install a hot water heater of some sort or another under the kitchen sink.

Not sure what other options would be good -- I'll keep doing this:  and this:  until I figure it out! lol

[OlJarhead]

On a side note I replaced my MorningStar MPPT controller with a new one Sunday so next trip out I should hopefully be getting better readings off the darn thing

[OlJarhead]

http://www.dynamicplasticsolutions.com/UndergroundTankInstall.php
Found that today.

I'm going to order the fittings and see if I can find a manhole extension to install on my tank so I can get the cover/lid above grade (where it should be).  Then get this thing working correctly and see what happens then.

If I find the tank is actually 40 feet or more above the cabin floor then I will plumb it in and see how well it works   After that I can worry about pressure since I have  A LONG time before it will be an issue anyway

Meanwhile, I need to order those parts and then start studying fence building techniques!  I have trees coming soon!

[MountainDon]

Hmmm....I was thinking the problem would be the power of the pump to draw water from so far away?  Otherwise it would just keep the gravity pressure the same and do nothing....maybe??

Basically the pipe goes over 300 feet from the spigot to the Cistern so the RV pump would have to suck water from the cistern at a faster rate then gravity already provided in order to increase pressure to 30PSI or better.

Perhaps I'm asking too much of an RV pump and would need something a little more powerful 

Watch that pressure does not get confused with rate of flow or the volume delivered to point of use.

The pump is not going to have to draw any water. Gravity is the delivery agent to the pump. The pump is to boost pressure only.

If the cistern is 40 feet higher than the point of use the pressure is 0.43 x 40 = 17.2 PSI. That is the maximum the current gravitational pull can generate over that distance. That does not take friction in the pipe into account.

If the pipe is 1 inch in diameter or if the pipe is 5 inches in diameter, the pressure is the same at the point of use, without taking frictional loss into account. . However the volume of water that can be delivered is much greater with the 5 inch pipe.

A simple chart illustrates theoretical flow... It does not account for distance, bends and elbows, heights, etc.  Chart #2 shows a 1 inch straight pipe capable of 26 GPM at 20 PSI while 5 inch pipe is listed at 2895 GPM at the same pressure. That would be one heck of a shower! Pressure still the same but watch out for the volume.

Shurflo RV pumps models range from 1 to maybe 4 GPM delivery. That makes me think that the gravity fed volume through the 1 inch pipe should be able to keep up with the RV pump even with some distance and a few bends, elbows or valves in the length. Emphasis on theory, but probably worthy of an experiment.

[MountainDon]

I guess the next best think might be to install a small propane fired hot water tank instead.

If you find any smaller than 30 gallons please let us know. I searched and searched for propane fueled tanks of ten or fewer gallons and have never found any.  I'd figure out what water heater will be used before making any changes to the pipes.