water issue

Started by comanche, April 09, 2012, 06:28:51 PM

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comanche

First, my situation- Hauling in all of our water. Snow water for dishes, pets, etc.  I have a guy coming out once spring actually comes (still have 4 feet of snow) to give advice on a permanent water source. Right now we run nearly everything (lights, fridge, range, supplemental heat) on propane. For now we have a single battery hooked up to an inverter that we use to charge the computer and cell phones. We have a Honda 2000 to charge the battery and run the corded tools. 

My fiance is getting pretty sick of not having hot water and I found a Bosch On Demand Water Heater w 125 k on craigslist (price isn't listed- said make me an offer, if anyone has advice on what that should be I'd appreciate it). I'm guessing there are many ways to set this up. I am looking to be able to use the hot water in two places- sink in kitchen and shower (right next to kitchen). I have not plumbed anything in yet.

Just wondering if there is any way to run this with our current situation. We would probably need a pump?? Or maybe put the water supply upstairs and have it gravity fed.

Eventually I would like to get a solar unit set up- have been reading a lot of old posts on here. The problem is we get so little sunlight November - February, and in the summer we really aren't around enough to use it, so it's difficult to spend a lot of money on something that would be used 5-6 months out of the year, especially when we are already hooked into propane.

Anyways, any advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks!

-Brandon
Homer, AK

rick91351

Can you find an older camp trailer that leaks like a sieve.  Part out the hot water heater, the on demand pump and maybe the wiring and switch if you can find one with electronic ignition.  Word of warning the hot water heater if an old unit might last a day, or year or forever.  New they are $$$.  I had to install one last year in our ancient fifthwheel.  In fact you could actually have hot and cold running tap in the sink if you salvaged the sink.  .......      ;)
Proverbs 24:3-5 Through wisdom is an house builded; an by understanding it is established.  4 And by knowledge shall the chambers be filled with all precious and pleasant riches.  5 A wise man is strong; yea, a man of knowledge increaseth strength.



rick91351

Quote from: Redoverfarm on April 09, 2012, 07:01:15 PM
This might be an option

John I seem to remember someone was using one of those while they did their build.  Problem is you would have to still have water pressure.  So a tank and a small on demand pump?  I don't think gravity is going to do it.  Would it??
Proverbs 24:3-5 Through wisdom is an house builded; an by understanding it is established.  4 And by knowledge shall the chambers be filled with all precious and pleasant riches.  5 A wise man is strong; yea, a man of knowledge increaseth strength.

rick91351

David and Lisa's 20 x 30 in Plumas County, CA

http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=3854.25

reply #44 about two thirds the way down the page.................. ???
Proverbs 24:3-5 Through wisdom is an house builded; an by understanding it is established.  4 And by knowledge shall the chambers be filled with all precious and pleasant riches.  5 A wise man is strong; yea, a man of knowledge increaseth strength.


MountainDon

Heater on ebay: check ti be sure it's for propane. Many can not be converted from nat to propane or vice versa. Check on the flow rate and pressure it needs to operate. being a Bosch it most likely has enough oomph to raise your cold water to a sufficiently high temperature to be useful; but again check the specs against your cold water temp, the temp you want coming out of the shower, etc and the flow rate. They are all intertwined.

Don't even think of heating water oir anything with solar electric.

I would not count on a used RV water heater lasting very long. Many RV'ers ignore replacing the anode rod and that causes the tanks to rust inside. Sometimes the pipe nipples screwed into the tank bosses are so rusted the tank tears when you try to turn the pipe.

We use an RV heater in our cabin. It's was the best compromise IMO. There are some RV water heaters with pilot lights and some with electronic direct ignition. What's best? depends on the user. Direct ignition saves the propane a pilot light would use. Direct ignition cost more; need 12 VDC. A well insulated pilot light RV water heater can make enough heat just from the pilot light heat. We do that.

Gravity flow: For every one foot of "head" (distance between the water level in the elevated tank, and the point of use) you get 0.43 PSI pressure. Not much. Many tankless water heaters need 30 psi so you need a pump. An RV water pump like a Shurflo or Flojet work well. 12 VDC with some in 24 VDC and 115 VAC.

Tankless heaters also have a minimum flow to activate the burner. Just so you know.

Is that figure of 125K the propane capacity required. A heater like that will likely have issues running off small portable propane cylinders. Some info re propane cylinder sizes, temperature of the propane and volume that can be delivered OVER HERE.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.

alex trent

Lots of ways to do it and you DO need hot water.  Just that and a stiff drink are great EOD therapy.

Buy a small on demand heater and when you get set to shower crank up the generator and presto, hot water.  Since it is on demand, you only run the generator when you are in the shower.

Get you a little electric pump and hook it up same way...so generator cranks that when you are in the shower. You can run a simple bypass to the wter tank so when NW is off, it just dumps back in tank before getting to the heater.

Or you can do something a lot more complicated...but this will work fine and cheap and you can sue the heater in your finished place.

Water to pump to HW heater...not a real complex plumbing situation.

Redoverfarm

Quote from: rick91351 on April 09, 2012, 07:07:02 PM
John I seem to remember someone was using one of those while they did their build.  Problem is you would have to still have water pressure.  So a tank and a small on demand pump?  I don't think gravity is going to do it.  Would it??

You are correct but if they had a storage tank and small pump to run off the generator they could shower and draw up water for dishes.  Not that complicated.  Alternative would be heat water on the stove and wash in a galvanized tub.  ;)  Just remember to do the dishes first. d*

comanche

http://m.sportsmansguide.com/Product.aspx?a=285471

Here's another one that looks like all you need is water. Probably not going to push out much water. Generator to pump to heater sure does easy enough. Maybe I'll check out my friends old rv, see what it's looking like and whether it'd be worth it.

We have been heating off the stove, then doing the dishes, etc. it's a process and has gotten old. Ready for an upgrade!Like I said I've got a fiancé-- gotta work and sure she turns into my wife still.
Homer, AK


MNJon

I bought the following to setup an outdoor shower. I have not hooked up the shower yet, but I am using the pump connected directly to a battery and drawing from a 200 gallon tank to feed a camper with a bathroom and kitchen and small propane water heater. The pump is virtually silent and turns on only when pressure drops below 55psi. It works like a charm and gives plenty of pressure for great showers. I will have the outdoor shower up and running in a couple weeks.

http://www.amazon.com/Camp-Chef-Triton-Water-Heater/dp/B001J4AU2E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1334845887&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/SHURflo-4008-101-E65-Revolution-Water-Pump/dp/B002XM5G70/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1334845915&sr=8-1

OlJarhead

I like the 250 gallon tank with the sureflo pump and camp hot water heater option myself and it's something I've been pondering also.

desimulacra

 Use a gas water heater and something like this.  I own a boat and away from the dock it uses storage tanks and a small on demand marine pump. Runs off of 12V batteries. Works Great!!  Really nice to be able to take a hot shower!!
West Tennessee

MNJon

Forgot to mention, I also have some 55 gallon drums that I use to haul. What I did was fill the tank with an initial couple trips with two barrels. Now myself, my wife and four kids plus the occasional visitor only use 30-40 gallons over a few day stay. We use Culligan type 4 gallon jugs from a dispenser for cooking and drinking. So that 30-40 gallons includes showers, hand washing, dishes, etc. I just bring a barrel back and forth with the additional 30-40 gallons to keep the tank topped off.

We also use a sawdust toilet so that eliminates that clean fresh water from being wasted!

My sister who is next door will be drilling a well very soon, and I will be driving a sandpoint well this summer. However, I will still continue with this system since I like it so much. We will just use the wells to keep the tank full. I like being able to run water any time I want without needing a generator for a well pump.

I also use about a cup of bleach in a full tank of water for algae and purification, but again we don't drink it, however we probably will after we are using the well and get it tested.

alex trent

You need a lot less than a cup of bleach or 50 gallons.  Like about 1/4 of that unless water is cloudy or really dirty.


comanche

MNJon, I really like the setup you have. That would work perfect for us. Even once we drill a well it might be the easier route to keep a large tank filled rather than run lines and worry about them freezing up the whole winter. There isn't any reason you can't use that inside is there? I see some say "outdoor use only".
Homer, AK

MountainDon

Quote from: alextrent on April 19, 2012, 03:12:29 PM
You need a lot less than a cup of bleach or 50 gallons.  Like about 1/4 of that unless water is cloudy or really dirty.

Link to recommended amounts and other water purifying info

http://www.doh.wa.gov/phepr/handbook/purify.htm

Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.

MNJon

alextrent - Yes, I used too much bleach this last time. After a shower it smells like we were in a swimming pool.

Mountain Don - Thanks for the link.

comanche - I like this system more every time I use it. This weekend we still had frost so before bed I went out and shutoff the supply valve, disconnected the inlet and outlet supply hoses and let them drain, connected the pump until it blew air then shut it off ( they are designed to run dry safely). The next morning I just went out, hooked up the hoses and connected the battery and voila...water!

Last weekend one night I forgot to drain, don't do that. I just tented it with a Little Buddy heater inside for about 10 minutes and the lines were clear. It is easier to drain the night before.

This weekend when I left I just dismounted the pump and set the pump and battery right inside the door. It took two minutes and I feel better that it wont walk off, freeze or become a nest for something (with the lines disconnected).

Yes, I plan on moving this whole system inside before next fall. It will be in my utility room. I will have the battery and pump mounted next to the water supply valve and the pump outlet directly to a manifold to run the branch lines out. It should feed one kitchen sink and one bathroom with plenty of pressure. For that I will get a new square IBC Tote tank. I will use my existing tank as a water collection tank for my outdoor watering and outdoor shower so that will not draw off the inside system, although it could still handle the demand, just not all at the same time.

As far as using the water heater inside, the lawyers say outdoor use only, but I read every single review on Amazon and several users said they had a CO detector right next to the unit while using inside and they did not see a blip. I will have no problem using one inside, but I will crack a window and have a CO detector close by and I would advise anyone to use safety precautions. I think my propane fireplace gives off more emissions than the water heater because it runs all day and night, whereas this only runs on demand.

I'll be back up in two weeks, I will take pics.

DirtyLittleSecret

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/portable-tankless-water-heater.aspx?a=680099



Have used this previously recommended unit many many times up at our cabin.  Works like a charm and puts out HOT showers.  Planning on adding a sauna/shower room as the next upgrade.
Thumb, meet hammer...hammer, meet thumb...

MountainDon

Just a note on CO and CO detectors.

My neighbors came close to being killed by their propane refrigerator two springs ago. Yes, they had a CO monitor/alarm. The cabin was closed up for the winter. When they went back in spring they fired up the refrigerator, water heater, etc. They never got around to checking the batteries on the CO monitor. It was in the back of their mind, but it was one of many things to do. Little did they realize that the batteries had died over the winter. Died to the point of not even having enough power to operate the "low battery" warning beep. So that was no help.

After waking two mornings in a row with splitting headaches they mentioned it at work. Someone there sent a lab quality CO instrument home with them. Good thing! That idicated an extremely high CO level. I forget what exactly, but it was way up there in the "I;m gonna kill you zone".

Just saying that technology can bite you at times when you blindly depend on it.

Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.

MNJon

Mountain Don--You are correct. I hope I did not give the impression that I think the dangers of CO are no big deal. I have actually had a close call myself a few years ago with a cracked heat exchanger in our furnace. I would never put anyones life in danger. I was just stating the reviews I read of people who reportedly used them indoors. If anyone does so, please use precautions- ventilation and CO detectors close by, maybe hardwired or two detectors.


PorkChopsMmm

If you want something cheap, temporary, etc. check this out from Coleman:

http://www.amazon.com/Coleman-Water-On-Demand-Portable-Water-Heater/dp/B0009PURE0



We own one of these, which we don't use much anymore, but got great use out of it when we did. It uses the small propane bottles or you can get an adapter to hook it up to a 20lb (or larger) tank. It creates it's own pressure and you can use it at a sink to wash dishes or with a cheap spray attachment as a shower. Ours works great as long as you use it for its intended purposes. It recharges via a wall outlet and can provide plenty of hot water.

This picture doesn't display it well, but there is a spigot that pulls out of the large handle on the top that looks like a kitchen faucet. You hook up the shower attachment to the end of the spigot. It comes with a large clear jug for holding water but the pump can also just rest in a bucket of water and draw water as needed. I would fill up a tub or a 5 gallon bucket of water for baths/showers.

We used this indoors for short periods of time and never had an issue with our CO2 detector going off. I can't say enough about this thing as long as you understand its limitations.

Hope this helps.