24' x 32' Lake Cabin in Oklahoma

Started by TexstarJim, August 12, 2009, 11:22:20 AM

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speedfunk

In upstate ny it was the first day I felt that had that Fall feel.  It's such a great season to work in... a nice sweatshirt at times and you can really get stuff done without sweating to death... ahh fall :)

ScottA

Yep. Really nice weather for this time of year.


Daddog

Jim, did you set the support 4X4s in with lag bolts or just spike them in? They sure look good!
"Right relationships are more important than being right."

TexstarJim

Thanks Jerry, and to answer your question;  I glued em and screwed em for now.  Later, I will drive (1) 60p galvanized nail with my short-handled #3 sledge down at the bottom where the 4x4 joins the 6x6.  Haven't decided what method to use up at the top where the 4x4 joins the beam.  Thought about just waiting until I get my son's framing nail gun and nailing the pee out of em.  Or do you think lag bolts would work better?  For right now, they're solid because of the wood glue and teflon coated deck screws.

Before I drive the 60p nails, I will pre-drill through the 4x4's and into the 6x6 to allow the nail good penetration and still not split any wood.  These large nails will get a light spraying of WD-40 right before I sink them.
Rule #1: "Don't sweat the small stuff"
Rule #2: "It's all small stuff"

MountainDon

#54
I haven't taken time to look this topic over very well until last night. You've got a nice looking piece of land there. I have a couple questions and comments.

You stated you're going to use 2x8 floor joists on 16" centers. Running that through the joist calculator indicates that if you are using any of the commonly available #2 grades those are getting close to the maximum span for L/360 deflection. You might want to think about that; 2x10 will make a much stiffer floor.

It appears the joists will be hung between the beams. Is that correct? Have you given any thought to placing the joists on top of the beams with an overlap at the center? That does away with all the metal hangers you need otherwise.

I also note you have used screws on the braces. We've discussed the merits of screws before and it is generally recognized that screws have poorer shear strength than nails. Shear are the main forces that will be at work if that structure tries to rack. I would get those 60D nails or lag screws installed before getting along with the walls, etc. Nails, perhaps along with metal ties plates would help at the beam. Ditto for where the beam sits on the 6x6 piers.

My last question/comment may be coming along a little late. You stated you are working from plans but have modified them. There's nothing wrong with that as long as the changes are made to take into account the extra width and the increase in loads that causes. Increasing length is no big deal. To me those double 2x12 beams appear to be pushing the limits as well when used with 8 foot pier centers. I could be wrong on that; I am not an engineer, so if that's what the plans call for I expect that's all fine and dandy then.   ???  

The perimeter beams will be carrying the main load, roof down through the side walls to the beams, to the piers and the ground.



Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.


MountainDon

I was also wondering about the interior layout and whether or not you'll be using factory roof and ceiling trusses to avoid having interior center load bearing walls?
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.

TexstarJim

Don, I sure appreciate your input and remarks regarding the structure.  Thanks for the compliment on the land.  If I had a way to ring a bell like they do on the game shows, it would be ringing right now after reading your reply.  I have been wondering how long it would be before someone took notice of the "12-foot span" and "2x8" joists.  I noticed this problem shortly after posting the picture along with the remarks saying it would be 2x8 joists spanning 12 feet.  Next person to notice was my son, shared his concern in an email.

Remarkable to me that until now, no one else commented about the "over"span.  Too many good carpenters and capable builders running around in this forum to have overlooked it.  I told myself, maybe they think you're know what you're doing and you've got em tricked, lol.

Since first noticing my error in joist size, I have been working on a remedy, or should I say "remedies".  I went ahead and priced 12" TGI's at $1.87 per feet and ruled them out.  I could get by with 24o.c. since I'm using the 5/4" t&g decking, but won't.  Next, I considered replacing the 8" with 12" as you suggested and telephoned the manager at the lumber yard regarding pick up of the 2x8's when delivering the replacements of 12" boards.  He said it wouldn't be a problem.

The primary lumber yard I am using is 80 miles away and I'm very faithful to them.  They are by far giving me the best pricing on most of the material and only charge a $50 fuel surcharge for this 160 mile round trip delivery fee.  I am 20 miles away from Lowe's and buy some material from them, but the blunt of it will come from Meads, the lumber yard I have been using for the last 8 years.  I am driving over to Mead's later and inspect their 2x12's and 2x10's to see if I can get the satifactory replacement boards for the 2x8 joists.  

If after I consider replacement with 2x12's or even 2x10's as you suggested, I may even go ahead and use the 2x8's by building a support beneath them.  Below is a sketch I emailed my son explaining to him one of my remedies;



The darker lines would be the new 2x12 bracing installed before building the floor using the 2x8 joists on hand.  The lighter lines are boards already in place, including the 6x6 posts.  This is probably the solution\method I will use since the cost of a few more 2x12's would be cheaper than total replacement with 2x12's or even 2x10's.

And yes, the joists will set up atop the beams and overlap the middle beam.  I hate using metal joists' holders anyway.  I had given some thought in the beginning to building the floor-joist on the inside using hangers, but decided against that.

To answer your concerns regarding the use of screws on the bracing, let me say that I totally agree.  I only used the screws as a temporary way to keep them in place before securing them with the stronger 60p nails and/or lag screws.  Today while visiting the lumber yard over in Ada, Oklahoma, I will also go by the local welding shop and order metal plates to use where beams connect to 6x6 posts.  When placing the 4x4 bracing since I work alone, I could only tack them with my small nail gun to hold them in place and later, screw them.  I picked up the 60p nails last week and only bought (10) to see how well they work.  I think they will be fine and I will pick up the rest (about 24 more) if I decide they are the connector of choice.

Not sure if you read this, but the 2x12 beams have been sandwiched together with 1/2" plywood glued inside.  I'm confident this will be sufficient for the load bearing all the way around.  I'm open to more input if you or anyone else disagrees.  One of the reasons I am using this forum is for ideas, input, corrective advice, and so on.... I can always use the help of people more knowledgable than myself.

I will be ordering my trusses within the next two weeks.

So, a tip of my hat to you Don for noticing the 12' span and 2x8 joists.  Thanks for your concern and please keep an eye out for anymore blunders I pull through this process.
Rule #1: "Don't sweat the small stuff"
Rule #2: "It's all small stuff"

MountainDon

Thanks for the bell ringer.   :D

As for the beams, or girders as they are sometimes called, here's where my thoughts are coming from. As I said, I am not an engineer, just a thinker/ponderer.

There is no handy beam size calculator or beams as there are for joists and rafters, because the load calculation is more complex than for a simple floor span. However, the Southern Pine Council has a publication that has some information and tables regarding floor girders. It's their publication ref207.pdf. It is the one named headers and beams under the span tables section near the top of the following webpage.

Keep in mind that southern pine may have a higher strength rating than some of the other lumber types that are more common in some areas.

http://newstore.southernpine.com/cgi-bin/newsopine/index-us

Go to page 16. There you will see they recommend a triple layer o 2x12"s for a 32 foot long girder with free span spacing of 8 feet. So if I interpret their information correctly a double 2x12 is not sufficient. At this point it would seem to be a simple matter to nail a third 2x12 on the inside of the existing two outer beams. I know you have the plywood in there, but it is not equivalent to the strength of a 2x12. The plywood does add some stiffness I'm sure.

Of course I tend to err on the side of caution and overkill. My 15.75 x 30 cabin beams are a quad layer of 2x10's, supported 7 feet apart on 6x6 rough piers.


FWIW, my preference on the joists would be 2x10's and stay away from those extra "supports" to allow the use of 2x8's.

AWC joist and rafter calculator is HERE.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.

ScottA

I guess I wasn't paying attention. Too busy i guess. I agree with Don on the floor joists. Use 2x10's and forget the extra braces. As for the beams... Ok here's what I'd do. You will have a 2x10 rim joist around the perimeter if you use 2x10 joists. This will sit on top of your double 2x12 beam. Make sure you spice it over a post then run OSB sheathing all the way down so it overlaps both pieces (the 2x10 and the 2x12) put a double row (staggered so you don't split the board)  of 8d nails 6" OC in each board through the sheathing. This will lock the 2 stacked boards together giving you something stronger than a double 2x12 for the wall to sit on. If this is a single story I don't see a problem if you do it this way. The snow load in your area is very low maybe 30psf. The pros might not agree but I belive this will work fine.


TexstarJim

Home from the lumber yard and this is my decision;  I ordered 2x12's to replace the 2x8's and they will be delivered Thursday, (two days).  They'll be placed 16" oc with the 5/4 decking, should be very strong without bounce.

Regarding the two suggestions (solutions) by Don and Scott, I will continue to think about these ideas and I appreciate the input guys, thanks. 8)
Rule #1: "Don't sweat the small stuff"
Rule #2: "It's all small stuff"

MountainDon

2x12's will certainly make a stiff floor. Good choice.


Another question on the roof trusses. Are you going to order the type that give extra depth for insulation right out to the side wall line? They have a special name which I forget. They let you get a full R-49 right out to the wall line even with modest pitch roofs. The extra attic insulation put in now will pay benefits back forever. It'll stay cooler in hot weather and warmer in cold weather.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.

rdzone

MD,

I beleive you are talking about raised heel trusses. These offer both structural stability and room for more insulation, which helps to increase a home's energy efficiency. A raised heel truss adds an extension to the top of the exterior wall, allowing for the full depth of insulation to be applied.
Chuck

MountainDon

Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.

TexstarJim

The "raised heel" trusses sound like a good idea and if I can get them without spending a lot more money, I will certainly use them.  Thanks for the input guys. ;D
Rule #1: "Don't sweat the small stuff"
Rule #2: "It's all small stuff"


Daddog

Jim, those are the doubled 2"X6" rafters with the plywood straps on top and bottom with a cross brace on the top that are in the plans. I think you said you would just use the standard trusses and pile in the insulation in the "attic" instead of using the double rafters. Either way is good but using the double rafters will allow for you to add a loft or storage space later without interfering with the insulation. Stay dry and out of the mud.
"Right relationships are more important than being right."

TexstarJim

Ordered the trusses today, the "raised-heel" truss would have been around $15 bucks more per truss, so I opted out of using them.  I will get enough insulation into the perimeter to provide adequate insulation without using the raised heels. 

Still too muddy to work here, but the sun has been shining for around two hours and hopefully it will dry up enough to get back to work in the morning.
Rule #1: "Don't sweat the small stuff"
Rule #2: "It's all small stuff"

TexstarJim

Sometimes I feel like the old farmer that gets his crops in only to see the rain come along and wash them all away.  He replants, and the rain comes again, washes em all alway again.  Fighting a never-ending battle here with the elements.  Rain, rain, rain......... before that, horrible days of humidity that have you sweating profusely 10 minutes after you get started.  Air so thick and heavy that it makes it difficult to breath.

And then there's all these little creatures with wings that God created;  mosquitoes, gnats, horseflies, and the list goes on... :P

But it can only get better from here on out.  First day of Fall is the 22nd and just around the corner is October along with the first frost.  I thrive in cold weather, wilt and die in the heat.  I wanted to get this thing in the dry by the end of October, looks like I will be pushing my luck.  Even if with nice weather, its going to be a challenge
Rule #1: "Don't sweat the small stuff"
Rule #2: "It's all small stuff"

novicebuilder

Well, as the farmer said, "you've gotta make hay when the sun shines".  You'll eventually get the dry days you need to get things happening. For now, enjoy the rain.  Without it, that lake lot of yours would be "oceanfront property in Arizona"! 

Seriously, the project is taking good shape.  The foundation and bracing you've installed looks like it could hold up a bank vault.  And, the plans to use 2x12's for floor joists are going to further your sturdy base.  For a 24'x30' cabin, this ought to last a lifetime. 
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do; do it with thy might.........Ecclesiastes

cmsilvay

OH YES dont you just love this OK weather. I had a backhoe lined up so I could get digging this week so much for that idea

ScottA

Oh come on it's not that bad. It's only rained 7 days in a row. We had 4" in 30 minutes last night.  :P


TexstarJim

All this wet weather and damp conditions sure make a wonderful living environment.............if you're one or more of the over 200 aspergillus type molds.........hahahaha. :o
Rule #1: "Don't sweat the small stuff"
Rule #2: "It's all small stuff"

TexstarJim

Back to work finally after 5 weeks of almost constant rain.  Rained almost every day the last two weeks of August and rained every day in September up to Sept the 23rd.  Sun shined the last two days and dried it enough so I could get my 2x12 floor joists restacked and ready to use in the morning.  (Lumberyard stacked them wrong and put all the long ones on bottom)  I need the long ones to build the outer frame before installing the individual floor joists on the inside. 

I'll start posting updates as I go.......wish me luck. ;D
Rule #1: "Don't sweat the small stuff"
Rule #2: "It's all small stuff"

novicebuilder

Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do; do it with thy might.........Ecclesiastes

TexstarJim

Here's the only new pic since I've been able to return to work.  Floor joists are installed.  I'm glad to be back driving nails after this latest Oklahoma monsoon.

Rule #1: "Don't sweat the small stuff"
Rule #2: "It's all small stuff"

ScottA

Looks good Jim. Don't forget blocking.  :)