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General => General Forum => Topic started by: glenn kangiser on June 25, 2006, 10:43:09 AM

Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn kangiser on June 25, 2006, 10:43:09 AM
Note from forum Administrator:

This is a long and interesting thread that started several years ago. Not all the earlier posts have made the transition to the new forum.

Here is a link to the early days: http://web.archive.org/web/20070704011909/www.countryplans.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1135060015 (http://web.archive.org/web/20070704011909/www.countryplans.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1135060015)

Please do not post to this older forum.
Come back here to add comments.



Thanks so much for your posting, Yosemite Indian.

It is great to get authentic information from someone who knows the inside scoop.  Unfortunately history gets colored over the years usually to the favor of the prevailing group who is telling it.

I have the honor of calling many of the local Native Americans in this area my friends.

I have walked on the shores of Mono Lake and try to think what it must have been like to live there.  

Unfortunately when the Europeans arrived in this area they were not the type to get along with the locals an many atrocities were committed in the early days.

Please add to this topic as you have time.  If you are from this area please message via the board or email me.  It would be great to learn more from you.

Thanks again.

Also thanks for the PDF book link from your site-- I downloaded it and will be reading it as time permits.
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn kangiser on June 25, 2006, 12:19:03 PM
I found this listed as Northern Piute Walker Lake searching Piute -in the Online Archive of California.  http://oac.cdlib.org/

(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/I0010947A.jpg)

http://content.cdlib.org/search?style=oac-img&facet-type-tab-join=or&facet-type-tab=image+cartographic+mixed&fieldList=text+keywords+title+description&keyword=Piute&institution-ignore.x=16&institution-ignore.y=18&institution-ignore=Search
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: Yosemite Indian on June 26, 2006, 12:46:01 AM
Thanks Glenn,  :)

That picture is very cool. A lot of Paiute from Walker and Bishop are originally from Mono Lake. Paiutes around Hetch Hetchy, Yosemite and along the high Sierra Nevadas were extremely rough on trespassers. There are reports of Paiutes attacking and killing gold miners and early water masters and dam diggers who entered the High Sierras. Some of the Paiutes moved further into the desert to get away.

A quick story of the Paiutes of Hetch Hetchy, which was one of our areas with photos. You can see when vigilantes formed to roust out Paiutes up in Hetch Hetchy. But it's recorded that Paiutes still returned yearly.

http://thehive.modbee.com/?q=node/180

Paiutes also liked horse flesh and would go on raids south and west to horse rustle. That caused a major clash of cultures. Because of Paiute attacks on trespassers and horse theft that caused James Savage and the Mariposa Battalion to "go and teach them Indians up there a lesson". The Miwoks, because of early contact with the Spanish were more docile and worked with non-Indians in the area.

The town of Stockton was created from the sweat of Miwok/Yokut workers. One of the early founders of the Stockton was a man named Webber. He saw how Sutter got local Indians to work for him dirt cheap to became very wealthy. So instead of one man going to dig gold Webber made an agreement with a local Miwok chief from around the San Joaquin town of Oakdale to get his people to move up to foothills around Sonora and dig gold for him. He became very rich because he had a very cheap workforce. James Savage had arrived and at first had some skirmishes with local Miwoks around the lower foothills but he saw what Webber did and decide he was going for a bigger operation. So he made friends with some of the chiefs he once fought and got them to work for him and friends to dig gold and other tasks. Savage, to seal alliances, like they used to do in old European Medieval times married women from many of the Miwok-Yokut tribes. One chief that who once fought against Jim Savage became a great friend of James Savage and became his 'overseer' and kept the Indians in line. He would have his men capture run-a-ways and bring them back to the mines. As James Savage got closer to Yosemite entrance he built a trading store and it was attacked and burned in Dec. 1850. Savage and his Indian miners chased the offenders up to entrance of Yosemite, but the Indian miners were afraid to enter. More and more horses and mules were taken and miners attacked. So in late Feb. of 1851 Savage had is friend Chief Bautista gather all the chiefs to sign a treaty and then they would be moved to a reservation. Bautista did as he was told and sent runners to all the neighboring chiefs and they came in except the two tribe they always suspected of causing the trouble. Two tribes that Chief Bautista and Russio said were the Chowchilla Yokuts and the "Yosemites" which in Miwok meant "The Killers" or "The Grizzlies". They also said they never entered Yosemite Valley because they feared that place.

Then that is how the whole thing started. The rest is on the book by Lafayette Bunnell on this link.

http://esnips.com/web/YosemiteIndiansWebResearch

Here is what it was like around Walker during the winter. We Paiutes would add more material to insulate the nobee for more warmth. On the right is a make shift wind guard which was common to block the nobee from high winds.

(http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/3370/jamesmooneywalkerinthesnow19cc.jpg)

Some Paiutes in Oregon had homes that resemble teepees, but made up of plant material.

Here is Chief Ochio leader of the Oregon Paiutes.

(http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/999/chiefochio18jy.jpg)

But back to structures in and around Yosemite.
Sometimes line of trees were used as natural wind guards or breaks. Here Paiute in Yosemite use trees as a natural wind block to protect their acorn caches.

(http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/4430/piutecache14gp.jpg)

Cut lumber was used to make homes like this one; Yosemite-Mono Lake Paiute Leanna Tom and daughter.

(http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/785/leannatompaiuteinyosemite1ia.jpg)

Paiute Chief George 'One-Eyed' Dick's home, another view. You can see that Yosemite Paiutes started to change their homes to more permanent style like his cabin. He even added a nicely done fence. In this photo you can also see the acon storage structure more closely.

(http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/3115/paiutegraneryinyosemite2qr.jpg)

Here is a typical early Paiute sweatlodge around Yosemite. Dug into the earth. The Paiutes would sweat and then jump into rivers and lakes to cleanse oneself.

(http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/6672/paiuteindiansweathouse18yn.jpg)

This is like ones found by the Mariposa Battalion when they entered Yosemite Valley to capture Chief Tenaya and his band. By the way, no Miwok Round House was reportedly found when they went into Yosemite. That was later falsely reported. Bunnell described the structure that was found when they entered. They also found Kutsavi (Mono Lake brine-fly larvae), Piauga(Pandora Moth larvae), Tuba(pine nuts), Waha(Indian hay seeds), Kuha(grasshoppers), a Paiute pine-pitched water jug, a small drum (Miwoks used clapper sticks). Most of those Paiute food items are only found in Paiute areas, no where else. Which they burned.  :o





Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn kangiser on June 26, 2006, 06:01:50 AM
Thanks for taking the time to post this for us, Yosemite Indian.  I hope you don't mind - I changed the url's to img's so the pictures would display immediately.  This stuff is too good to not see at once. :)

I live within about 20 miles of Savages trading post.  I seem to remember that Savage had an Indian wife I think. We currently have a giant rockslide actively moving near the trading post and blocking all access to Yosemite from here.  http://www.mariposacounty.org/sheriff/Rock%20Slide%20May%2029%202006.htm

Note that I live on one of the original routes into Yosemite, over Mt. Bullion. Local history is so interesting to me, and I have 3 nephews that are half Siletz Indian from Oregon.  I went to school with their dad.  Is Julia Parker related to any of your people?- I have talked with her several times.

I have heard of the Tom family.  Do you know anything of the Indians and their relationship to to the hot spring areas east of the Sierras.  Near Saline valley there are some rock outlines of Indian structures as well as Petroglyphs on the back side of the Inyo Mountains.

I could stay and ask questions all day but unfortunately work is calling and I have to go sell my body for money.   :(  Still building a storage facility near Napa.

Please post anything of interest to us regarding your culture or enlarging on it if you want.  I don't mind if topics wander into related areas.  It just helps us to learn more.  We have lots of room here and all love pictures. :)

Thank so much or your time once again.  Very informative postings and a great addition to our forum.
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: John Raabe on June 26, 2006, 06:58:53 AM
I am currently reading Charles Mann's, "1491, New Revelations of the Americas before Columbus". It is full of very, very interesting new information that has only come to light in the last 20 years. This is not the American history you learned in school!

One of most powerful new ideas is the assertion (not yet agreed to by all) that native population densities were much higher than previously thought. Estimates of precontact societies are continually being revised upwards as new digs are discovered.

Prior to European contact the immune system of the "Indians" was focused on parasites rather than microbes. This made the population particularly open to infections of European diseases (smallpox, etc). These were likely transmitted throughout the area much earlier than previously thought. Many North American Indians may have been wiped out by the 300 pigs that escaped from the De Soto adventure (1539, landing in Florida and marching through the SE).  These pigs were carrying the animal/human diseases that Europeans had grown immune to from thousands of years of living together. Native populations had immune systems and social systems uniquely unprepared to fight such diseases.

Once infected, perhaps 95% of the native population was killed and the disease was spread far beyond the contact point by the Indian trade routes. De Soto records the area near present day eastern Arkansas - "a land thickly set with great towns. Each city protected itself with earthen walls, sizable moats, and dead-eye archers." The Indians approached the Spanish boats with an armada of large war canoes and several thousand warriors.

The next European explorer to return to the area a century later (la Salle) found only ten rough settlements.

Most of the early explorers and immigrants to the Americas felt they were stepping into a vast unpopulated continent. What they really saw was the tiny proportion of the surviving population that was trying to pull together some greatly reduced version of their prior social structure. They saw only the shattered refugees of these earlier civilizations.
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn kangiser on June 26, 2006, 10:32:03 PM
I wonder if something like that happened to the Anasazi - Seems they left their dwellings without much of a trace ---maybe more of a story there too.
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: Yosemite Indian on June 27, 2006, 12:42:35 AM
 :) Glenn

We Yosemite-Mono Lake Paiutes are in the same situtation as the Anazai. For decades anthropolgists who were studying the Anazai believed they were ancestors of the Navajos who now lived in their area. Even the Navajos believed they were the descendents of the Anazai.

Later it was revealed that Anazai was the Navajo translation of "Ancient Enemy". The Anazai were really related to the Pueblo people who were the traditional people of the area. The Navajo or Dine are related to the Dene from Canada who came down along the Rocky Mountain range into the South West. They were raiders who fought in early times with the Pueblo people, the ancient Anazai.

The same thing with the Ahwahneechees. People believe they were Miwoks, but in fact they were enemies. The Ahwahneechees were aligned and predominately mixed with Mono Paiutes and not Miwoks as has been written. The Miwoks had aligned themselves with Charles Webber and James Savage to work for them and helped attack the original Yosemite Indians.






Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn kangiser on June 27, 2006, 07:24:04 AM
Very interesting.  All I'd heard of that was the NPS condensed mystery version.  

The Wassama Round house is near the current town of Awahnee, about 25 miles from me.

(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/wassama.jpg)

I undserstand this is about the 4th rebuilding of this Round House.

I have been to a couple Big Times and Pow Wow's held in this area and YNP.  I haven't been to a gathering at the Wassama Round House however I have visited the grounds.

I have another friend who mentioned that his people were from the group that was from Yosemite or were run out of Yosemite.  Another friend told me that.  I'll have to see him again and ask more .  It seems that documentation in written words helps also so that many have the knowledge.  Another family of Native Americans stayed at his place and had a store in town selling native made products.  I helped Pete, the store owner, get his 5th wheel trailer repaired to go to Colorado to check on an ill grandchild.  He asked what he owed me.  I asked that he come to my Underground Cabin and sing Native songs for my grandson who loves everything to do with Indians.  Not only did he come but he brought him an arrow and medicine bag.  It was a very special evening.  My grandson still asks about Pete when he comes down.
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: Yosemite_Indian on June 27, 2006, 05:50:35 PM
Glen  :)

Great photo.

Edward W. Gifford documented when he talked to eldery informants that around the late 1800s in the areas where the government had set up reservations, which by then most of the Indians had lost hope and their customs, movements started. They were eldery Yokut and Miwok informants.

There were several movements during that time. One came from the west from a Coastoan or far western Yokut man. He was considered a medicine man in the western foothills and taught the Indians around the lower foothills the style of medicine and dances from his area. Most of what you see today are a combination of that and local culture.

It is also documented in the Stanislaus Indian Wars by Thorne Grey.

Out of desperate times, came movements to cure, and also movements to rid their lands of non-Indians. That was around the same time in Nevada Wovoka's Ghost Dance became popular. They were movements to cure and also to return to olden times.

The people along the western foothills in gold country adopted some mixture of different medince and dances in the movements that were going up and down Central California at that time.

Also because they were forcibaly placed on reservation with each other they started to pick up each others customs.

That is why there is a blend of that in the area. That is why some Yokuts think they are Miwoks, but looking at old documentation they were really Yokuts or a blend of a couple of tribes.

The example is Madera County. Most people in Madera County are Yokut and Mono people or now a blend of both. That was not a Miwok territory but now some who don't know are claiming to be Miwok from Madera County. There were no Madera County Miwoks. Here is an example of how things are getting mixed up, see link below regarding Wassama;

http://www.cagenweb.com/madera/RoundHouseCemetery.htm

Of those four names on list of people buried there on that website four of them are Chuchansi or Casson Yokuts. The other one I am not sure...yet.

(http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/1450/wassmadeaths6rq.jpg)

Banjo Graham, Fremont James, Jessie Roan and Charles Rohan are Yokuts not Miwoks as reported in the story on that link. Someone, not me, even emailed the website to have it corrected as you see can see on the bottom. Maybe a Yokut person. In the article Chief Pete Westfall, Johnny Gibbs and others are Yokuts also.

Here is one of the earliest photos of Wassamah 1905 below;

(http://img462.imageshack.us/img462/9960/wassamamadera19051oi.jpg)

 :)






Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn-k on June 28, 2006, 12:03:34 AM
Thanks, Yosemite Indian.  The photo was courtesy of Oliver Seely, Jr for educational purposes - nice that some people put education first.

When I was at the roundhouse I noticed the board sides and thought it may have been a later rebuild -not paying attention to the original construction, but it appears from your earlier photo that it is very similar.  It seems this would have been the early days of sawmills.  Were planks hand made before that time?  

Earlier, John brought up the wisdom of building with the posts being inside from the edges to make them last much longer.  This kept them away from the active soil layer on the outside.  I'm not sure if the Wassama round house is lined with rock around the perimeter circle, but it seems this would also be a sound building practice.   Was there any significance to the placement of the poles and support structure besides the strength of the strucure, that you are aware of?

I remembered seeing reference to the Yokuts on a plaque at the Tejon area.  I found a early map of the tribes.  I can't say much bout accuracy.   It seems this map pushes the Miwok area clear across the Sierra also.  It appears there were quite a lot of tribes.  

Here is a pic. from http://www.linguistics.berkeley.edu/Survey
(http://www.linguistics.berkeley.edu/Survey/images/tribal_groups_lg.jpg
)

Below is a grinding rock I dug up many years ago when trenching for electrical lines in West Fresno County.  It was about 2 feet deep sitting upright with a brick red powder in it.  It was in a flood zone and weighing about 150 pounds we assumed a flood may have come by and it was too heavy to carry quickly.  Nothing else was found near it.  It appears it may have been in a Yokut area.

I once hiked to a lake called Rattlesnake lake, and there we found many shards of obsidian from arrow head making.  I assume that he obsidian came from the Mono Craters area.  Being on the upper San Joaquin river if I recall correctly, would this have been like Paiute or would it have more likely been traded to other tribes?
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: Yosemite_Indian on June 28, 2006, 01:34:58 AM
Glenn  :)

Yes I noticed that Wassamah roundhouse would have to have been made later when lumber was being used. That is why there was no roundhouse found in Yosemite when Bunnell entered.

I believe they were more earthen like dug into the ground and material put on top. They built a new roundhouse in Yosemite in 1972 (there was never one in Tenaya's time). Than later they built a newer one in 1992. The earthen ones were replaced with incense cedar-bark split-wood shake roof ones. They were simply to maintain and replace. Here is the construction of the Yosemite roundhouse in 1992 to replace the one built in 1972 below, picture is for educational purposes;

(http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/5610/roundhouse199217su.jpg)

It is possible that the roundhouse in Wassama they just kept replacing the lumber, put keeping the same look of the 1905 structure. Like a restoration project.

Because they the 1905 and more recent photo have the same look about it. Also it looks like a hexagram or hexagon.

Usually in Indian religion there are meanings for certain shapes. I am not a Miwok or Central California so I don't know in their is a meaning to a roundhouse being 6 sided? We Paiutes had simple structures.

But I did notice that the grinding stone and pestle looks like the same one in the photo of the Yosemite Paiute family here:

(http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/4816/1interiorofpaiuteindianhousesh.jpg)

close up of morter/pestle;

(http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/1851/grindingstone2bi.jpg)

In the upper Sierra Mountains above Madera and Fresno Counties there are the "cousins" of the Mono Paiute people called the Monaches. You can see them on your California Indian map Glenn. They broke off early from the Mono Paiutes and Bishop Paiutes around the time of Chief Tenaya. We believe that they are the descendants of the early Ahwahneechees also. There were some that went to west and south while Tenaya's father went east with a handful of survivors to Mono Lake. They used the same type of tools.

Here is where Obsidian came from. this is about a 30 minute movie about Obsidian from the eastern side of the Sierras.

http://www.archaeologychannel.org/content/video/obsidian_300kW.html

Scientest have discovered that all obsidian found in the western area around Yosemite came from two Mono Paiute areas. I can't remember off hand where those sites were but they did come around Mono Lake.

Paiutes and Miwoks did not trade with each other since they were enemies, but Paiutes traded with their brethren the Yosemite Ahwahneechees. Trade did not happen till early 1900s. That is why Paiutes had the advantage in war.  ;)






Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: jonseyhay on June 28, 2006, 05:41:23 AM
Some of the images on the site provided by Yosemite Indian are stereographs, guess who built a stereo-viewer a couple of years ago, just to see if he could.

(http://users.tpg.com.au/jonsey/countryplans/stereo.jpg) (http://users.tpg.com.au/jonsey/countryplans/stereo3.jpg)
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn-k on June 28, 2006, 06:44:20 AM
My Indian friend, Ben mentioned that the original round houses were earth covered also.  I have been to several ceremonies in the above structure  during a couple of the Big Time celebrations, and helped repair other structures there.  Were the Umacha's Miwok?

So Jonesy - how about telling us more if you get time - how it works - critical parts etc.  Could we copy and print stereographs from the net -- there were more in the California archives I think -- I don't remember for sure where-- I've been researching all over, since this topic has always been of interest to me.

You may have gathered from the site already, Yosemite Indian, but Jonesy is our friend from Australia - our mate as they say.

I see from this site, http://www.native-languages.org/bering.htm    that the Indians do not believe in the "scientific theory" of a possible land bridge across the Bering straight.  It wouldn't be the first time "scientific theory" had been wrong.

I have spent some time visiting the Raramuri or Tarahumara as they are also called in Mexico - even learned a couple of their words.  Is there any relationship to the Northern Indians that you know of?  They used caves as housing when available but also later used wooden structures.  They also request that photography be done in a courteous manner similar to what I've seen at Big Time.  One older lady - a leader of sorts of their people - asked what we were going to do with her picture before allowing us to take it.  A little courtesy goes a long way.

The morter and pestle is very similar.  The one I have had a shallow indentation on the side also as if it was sometimes used there so as not to be so deep - the large hole is at least 6 inches deep and about the same diameter.

Are you familiar with Paoha Island? Hope I spelled that right.  I flew around it close up - took some old pictures of the movie sets and Hot Spring houses there. (http://lvo.wr.usgs.gov/gallery/images/30714277-015_med.jpg)  This photo is from the USGS site -- a group of our public servants-- I think that means we can use it. :)  

http://lvo.wr.usgs.gov/gallery/30714277-015_caption.html From their site:

This aerial view toward the south shows the northeastern side of Paoha Island; the Mono Craters and Sierra Nevada are in the far distance. Most of Paoha Island consists of layers of lake sediments that were pushed up above the water level by rising magma (similar to the way in which the resurgent dome in Long Valley Caldera was pushed upward). But the north (bottom of photo) and east (left side of island) tips of the island consist of craters and lava flows that may have erupted as recently as A.D. 1720-1850.

Yosemite Indian, as you get to know me you will see that I operate under the delusion that I myself am a sovereign nation. :)
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: Yosemite_Indian on June 28, 2006, 03:35:13 PM
Jonesy  :)

I recognize the photo of Paiute women and children. That is a nice contraption. I never seen one like that. It looks very nice also.

The Roundhouse is Miwok, but the Umacha's were originally Paiute. Before they used that they used brush materials. The earliest photos mainly showed Paiutes in Yosemite. Photos of "Miwoks" didn't start appear until later.

There are some photos of people wearing flicker bands, but that was because of the religion that was brought in by a Coastoan or far western Yokut. Those were taking in the early 1920s when Indian people would come in from the surrounding areas to have a "Fandango" or Celebration. The earliest photos of Indians in Yosemite are of Paiutes.

Here is where I got most of my early Yosemite Indian photos;

http://www.yosemitecampers.com/discus/messages/29/2150.html?1145602942

I had seen them around, but this person put them up. His name (i believe him to be a he) is Acorn Indian in Paiute.

Paiutes/Shoshones/Comanches/Pueblo people are different than other Indians. Unlike some of the other Indians who came North to South, our group of American Indians came South to North. That is in our legends and tales.

Even in Lafayette H. Bunnell's book on pdf:

http://esnips.com/web/YosemiteIndiansWebResearch

The Mono Paiutes were taller, lighter and not Asiatic looking, but have a more 'white' look. That was their description of the Mono Paiutes and Chief Tenaya's band.

Remember Kennewick man? He was found in a Paiute area and the Paiutes claim him and Spirit Cave man in Fallon. The both were not Asiatic looking.

(http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/3466/kennewickman4uj.jpg)

Here is a bust of him;

Here is early photo of Captain Jim of the Bridgeport/Hetch Hetchy Indians.

(http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/8264/captjim19108sp.jpg)

Notice that they both do not look Asiatic. lol...Captain Jim is squinting because of the light, but is not Asiatic.  ;D

Oh Glenn that photo of Paoha Island is great.

Pah-Oha is "Water Baby" Island. Water babies were spirits like water imps. The Island was named after them. The other Island is Negut Island (Nuh-gut) which is "Canadian Goose" island.

You can read about how Chief Tenaya, his band and the Mono Paiutes were taller, lighter and different then the western tribes (the Miwoks/Yokuts etc...) in that pdf of first contact.

 :)

Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn-k on June 28, 2006, 07:15:15 PM
I wish I knew where my old photos were -- I had tons of aerial photos of Mono Lake and the islands -- I would circle all around in my airplane with the window open and shoot photo's of everything in all directions.  Possibly one of these days my wife will find them and I'll get out the scanner and get some posted.  Someone over there clued me in about the buildings and movie set on the island.

I have hiked through the giant crack in the black volcanic area at the North side of the lake a bit toward the west.  It is probably about 30 feet deep and a couple hundred feet long.  I have climbed the sides of the craters South east of the lake to where the obsidian bands are.  Actually I spent a lot of time in that area as I kept a truck at the Bridgeport airport and woulld fly in the wander all over the countryside.  

I have flown over the Bodie area as well as visited it on the ground and taken lots of photos.  Above the town of Lee Vining at about 10000 feet elevation there is a gold mine with a pretty extensive set of buildings.  Airplane only for that one.  

In the visitor center on the West side of the lake is the first place I learned of the Paiute dwelling and life on the edge of the lake, and how important even this extremely salty lake was to their life.  It is a very special place sometimes shrouded in clouds of it's own making, and the tufa tubes from the minerals hardening in the undergroud spring areas are very unique.  I remember the movie of your people scooping up the brine fly larvae from the lake and toasting them in the fanlike baskets.  Did they do anything with the brine shrimp in the lake?

I think they finally made LA stop stealing so much water from there so that the water levels were rising once  again.

I have a friend who is an archeologist who documented nearly all of the native american dwellings, camps etc in the Owens valley area.  He currently works for the NPS in Yosemite doing similar work --after talking to you here, Yosemite Indian, I am thinking its time I go and get into a nice deep discussion with him again -- maybe even take notes.  I know he is not allowed to give out locations of the Owens valley dwellings etc.  They did the study to see how to best preserve it.  He said most of the time it was just by leaving things alone.  He said most people in many of the areas would not even realie they were in a native dwelling area.

I wonder if the rugged rock carved areas of the Owens River were of use to your people.  I have been down to Bishop and Lone Pine also.  Was the Devils Postpile area of any significance to your people.  I know there are many nice high Sierra lakes in the Mammoth area.  Did they have any dwellings around there - maybe seasonal - do any hunting or fishing that you know of?

Thanks again for your time.

Maybe Jonesy will get back to us shortly on the viewer -- he's been very busy lately.  He's kind of an Australian clone of me :)  Poor fellow-- :-/ -- does a bit of everything and is interested in the aboriginal people there also.
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: jonseyhay on June 28, 2006, 08:57:33 PM
A lot of those photos where taken with stereographic cameras. They had two lenses and produced a sort of 3-D image. There where some on another link that Glenn posted on the fires in San Francisco. I got interested in doing some work with stereo images a few years ago and built the viewer for that. I have an old Kodak stereo camera and I built a slide for my canon that allows me to make hyper-stereo images. The viewers are still around and you can sometimes pick them up on ebay, there are also some cheap modern ones available. If you want to build your own, the trick is to cut an old magnifying glass in half and swap the sides over. There are a number of enthusiasts on the web, who build their own viewers, if you look for stereographs you should find them. I just downloaded the images to my photo editor messed with the contrast and sharpness some and printed them to size. They just plonk straight into the viewer and Bobs you uncle, 3-D IMAGES.

         (http://users.tpg.com.au/jonsey/countryplans/stereo5.jpg)
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: Sassy on June 28, 2006, 09:14:56 PM
Hey Jonsey, nice quilt, Mate!
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn-k on June 28, 2006, 09:15:37 PM
That's a new one to me, Jonesy.  I never did know how they did that.  See --- I'm not too old to learn. :) :-/
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: jonseyhay on June 28, 2006, 09:33:44 PM
One of the good things about those old images is that they have been made on large negative. Therefore, the photos have a lot of good detail in them if they have been printed well.
If you look through the achieves and find the ones that look like double prints, they are the 3-d images.
 :)
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: jonseyhay on June 28, 2006, 09:36:14 PM
I am starting to get a handle on the sewing, Sassy. It's just getting the time to practice that's the problem. ;D
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: Sassy on June 28, 2006, 09:46:37 PM
I'm impressed!
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn-k on June 28, 2006, 10:34:18 PM
Thanks for the new links, Yosemite Indian.  I got started on the pictures and couldn't get stopped.  Very interesting.  I found another link to more pictures and found a nice view of a picture in the Lemoore area which lends credibility to your comment that the morter and pestle I have may be Paiute.  Lemoore is nearly directly south about 30 miles from where ai found it at.  Very nice house.

Note that I (and Sassy) and my crew worked on the Palace*Cas ino (note - that was a banned word) in Lemoore several times.  Original sign mounts on the new building - handrails and water treatment plant.

http://digarc.usc.edu:8089/cispubsearch/objectdetails.jsp?objectname=chs-m14734

Title from picture: Paiute indian woman grinding acorns for flour, Lemoore, Kings County, California

Their comment-       Photograph of Paiute indian woman grinding acorns for flour, Lemoore, Kings County, California. She is sitting in front of a grass hut. Several bags and baskets are sitting nearby. She seems to be using an oblong rock or short fat wooden implement to pound the acorns in a hollowed-out stump or bowl.  Circa 1900

I'm guessing that the pestle is rock - the one I have is very similar.  This seems to show thst the Paiutes also ventured into the central San Joaquin Valley.

(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/CHS-922.jpg)

Another great housing photo -same site -

(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/CHS-11193.jpg)

Exterior view of a Paiute Indian hut near Bishop in Inyo County, ca.1905

Their comments:        Photograph of an exterior view of a Paiute Indian hut near Bishop in Inyo County, ca.1905. The hut is crudely constructed of small vertical tree branches held together by larger horizontal branches. There is a stone chimney at left and a narrow open doorway at center. The roof is covered in straw. There is an Indian man sitting in front of the building at center and he is wearing a hat, long-sleeved shirt, and pants with the bottoms rolled up. He has a beard and a mustache and his hands are resting in his lap.
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: Yosemite_Indian on June 28, 2006, 10:49:26 PM
Glenn;  ;D

Quite a lot of questions all at once...lol  ;D

Some Paiute people I have heard have said that YNPS Archeology has been duped for decades.  :-[

You see they believe that the early Ahwahneechees were Miwoks, but they were extremely docile and not war-like. Paiutes on the other hand were extremely war-like. Miwoks aligned themselves with Jim Savage. One part of the agreement if the Miwoks digged gold for Savage, he would also help them against the Paiutes that lived in Yosemite and in the upper Sierras. The Miwoks also had problems with the Yokuts to the south. The Mono Paiutes still kept returning to Yosemite, but a lot of them had resent towards the whites and Miwoks for many years. They had always been the dominate power and controlled most of the natural resources areas. The three tribes fought over most of those areas that had acorns, Indian rice grass, and salmon.

Here was the chief who reportedly threw the rock on Chief Tenaya's head for the theft of their horses. He was a Chief of Yosemite right after Tenaya's death. His names was Captain John. He also went by the names of Shibana and Poko Tucket (Horse-Eater). He was extremely tough and resented white intrustion;

(http://img274.imageshack.us/img274/6029/captainjohn7jf.jpg)

Here is a sterograph for you Jonesy:

(http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/973/historicyosemiteindianchief16s.jpg)

He was also a shaman and medicine man.

Later the chief of Yosemite was a Paiute named Captain George "One-Eyed" Dick.  There were different camps and each camp had different captains. Captain John was the main chief of the Mono Lake Paiutes. Captain Jim, the one photographed above, was the main chief of the Bridgeport and Hetch Hetchy area and so on.

Captain Dick and Lancisco Wilson were related and ancestor was Topee-nia (Rock-chief or Rock-father). Like El Captain.

Here is the Lancisco Wilson's grave marker INSIDE Yosemite Cemetery;

(http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/7876/lanciscowilsonpaiute3pf.jpg)

You see YNPS is studying and using the data which is around El Portal. Jim Savage made an agreement with Chief Bautista, who was afraid to enter Yosemite Valley, to get his people to work for him at his trading post and dig gold around the distant entrance of Yosemite. That is why the trading post was attacked. Savage and his Indian miners (the Miwoks) went after the attackers, the Indian miners were afraid to go any further into Yosemite.

Also they are going off of C. Hart Merriam's work. Early Indian ethnologists went up to Mariposa and Sonora to record "Yosemite" Indians and talked to Bautista's and Cypriano's band. They were ones who aided the Mariposa Battalion. On several written accounts the Paiutes did not talk to the whites, because they resented them. Merriam and Kroeber did not live in the area, they also never read Lafayette H. Bunnell's book and early newspaper accounts. Bunnell was working on his memoirs and the book didn't come out until 1880s. Later in 1930 C. Hart Merriam conceded that he got his information wrong, but no one reads I guess. That was in Frank Latta's book who studied Yokuts. That Miwok tales were really Yokut tales from around Mount Diablo brought in by a Coastoan or western Yokut medicine man named Tciplitcu or Chiplichu.

The reason we believe that the truth is not being written is that today some Indian employees and former employees are going for federal recognition as Southern Sierra Miwuks. The people that work or worked with them are "friends". They are not a tribe yet, but a non-profit group.

Some Paiutes noticed that some of our people were being changed from Paiutes to Miwoks, even some Yokuts were being changed. Someone at the park is trying to change history and have never read the "Bible" of Yosemite Indian History. They are even erasing us out of Yosemite and Hetch Hetchy.  :-[

This one;
http://esnips.com/web/YosemiteIndiansWebResearch

They used to make movies at Winneduhmah, the rock tower. Those old Tom Mix movies. They even filmed part of  "The Greatest Story Ever Told" at Pyramid Lake Paiute reservation using some Paiutes as Arabs.  ;D

Here is some interesting "housing" along the 395 corridor.

(http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/9923/kiva2vt.jpg)

Some of our people even lived in caves, that is how some Paiute tribes had visions:

(http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/8262/caves4ed.jpg)

splunking?  :D







Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn-k on June 28, 2006, 10:52:45 PM
Sorry to overwhelm you - I got excited. :-/

Please refresh your page as I just added more to my previous posting. :)
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn-k on June 28, 2006, 11:07:43 PM
I think the movies were made in the Alabama Hills out of Lone Pine.  I have heard of the lava tubes off 395 - never did find them - didn't look too hard though.  

Some people don't like the 395 area.  My wife and I think it is great.  Even slept with a herd of cattle (nearly) near the Lone Pine airport one night.
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn-k on June 28, 2006, 11:09:14 PM
I'm ready for spelunking anytime--- I am a troglodyte you know. :)
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: Yosemite_Indian on June 28, 2006, 11:20:06 PM
Quote
Sorry to overwhelm you - I got excited. :-/

Please refresh your page as I just added more to my previous posting. :)

That is a beautiful photo!  :D

In 1911 or 1901 George Wharton wrote that when he went to Yosemite to find Merriam's "Miwoks". He found a bunch of Paiutes sitting there. He had to go to outskirts of Yosemite Valley to find whom he considered the "Yosemite" Miwoks.  ;D

There are NO Yosemite Miwoks.  ;D

Wharton went down to Lemoore and Tulare and found Paiutes sitting there too. That is why there are Paiutes in Lemoore... ;) They were extremely war-like and over run other tribes. The Yokuts were a war-like people also. Some, like the Chowchilla Yokuts (who are not Miwoks as been falsely reported) joined the Monos on the western side to try to fight the tide of what we considered an "invasion".

That is a cool photo!  :)

Jonesy, there are quite a few great Indian sterograph photos around. I will try to find a great website I found earliar.  ;)

Here is the story of Stone Mother or Tubee Bia in Paiute. The story goes she was married to a Grizzley (Yosemite Indian - not Miwok) they were giants. He didn't treat her very well so she left him. Her footprints can still be found at Mono Lake.  She traveled to Yerington and found a man there. They got married and had several children. The children fought constantly so the father told them all to leave. They all went to different directions and that is how the Pitt Rivers, Washoes, Shoshones and Paiutes were made. The Paiutes stayed with their father and mother, but the rest left. Stone Mother was so saddened that she sat there with her basket and cried Pryamid Lake. That is the story of how Pyramid Lake was created.  :'(

Here is the Stone Mother at Pyramid Lake, which is HUGE! it is about 3 stories high. She sits next to the Pyramid:

(http://img289.imageshack.us/img289/5197/nv447grievingmotherstonebasket.jpg)
 :'(

Here is the quick story about her with some great photos. I should have just copied/pasted... ;D

http://www.crosbylodge.com/pyramid_lake/pl_map_stonemother.htm

The story varies, but is basically the same.  ;)

Wolf was our deity and Coyote was like Loki, you know his brother, but a trouble-maker.  >:(
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn-k on June 28, 2006, 11:34:57 PM
Very interestiing and great pix.  

With the education I'm getting here, I ought to be able to ask some very interesting questions of the people I know who work for YNPS. ;D

Thanks, Yosemite Indian.
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: jonseyhay on June 28, 2006, 11:51:27 PM
Here is a link to a site with lots of different viewers. They even have one that works with computer screens.
http://www.berezin.com/3D/viewers1.htm
http://www.berezin.com/3D/screenscope.htm
Yosemite Indian do your people still practice traditional crafts. Stuff like basketmaking, clothing and footwear.  Did they do any sort of carving wood or bone? The New Zealand Maori had a great tradition in this
Here are some of mine. Traditionally, these are whalebone, mine are beef.
(http://users.tpg.com.au/jonsey/images/bones.jpg)
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: Yosemite_Indian on June 29, 2006, 12:39:51 AM
Quote
Very interestiing and great pix.  

With the education I'm getting here, I ought to be able to ask some very interesting questions of the people I know who work for YNPS. ;D

Thanks, Yosemite Indian.


LOL  ;D

Oh Glenn I heard some people at the YNPS are in DEEEEEEP denial  ;D

You see, to believe the truth, it would destroy the chances of their friends from becoming a tribe. That is what several Paiutes believe.  :-?

Then Yosemite National Park Service would be HIGHLY embarrassed.  :-[

Years ago some Paiutes had found this book written by Yosemite staff and were SHOCKED to see their ancestors were now Miwoks???  :o

Here is the photo that made them look:

(http://img275.imageshack.us/img275/9738/traditionandinnovation815uh.jpg)

This is from a book written by a couple of Yosemite National Park employees. The problem with the title was the most of Tom Hutchings or Hudgens descendent's are Mono Paiutes. They are part of different Paiute bands and have Tom's paperwork yearly done Indian census rolls till he died. He was always Paiute.

So some of his descendent's wanted to know where they got this information so they went to talk to the person who wrote the book who still worked at the park. They were directed to the small Yosemite Research Center above the Indian Museum in Yosemite. There they asked to speak to the person and they had said he had a stroke and that he did not see most people. So they showed the librarian the photo of their ancestor and asked where he had gotten this information. She took him to his office located in the small research room and pointed to rolls and rolls of the 1928 California Indian Applications. We always believed they were covered by the Privacy Act, but the librarian advised them that they could be found at the National Archives at San Bruno. Then she told them that they had the photo in question in their catalog file and took them right to photos.

Here it was the photo, being his descendent's they already had it, but this is the actual photo from YNPS Research Library;

(http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/6286/tomhutchingsfront19of.jpg)

Than they turned it over and this is what was on the back;

(http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/2199/tomhutchingsback19pw.jpg)

Like they always knew. It said "Mono" for Mono Paiute. They were NOT HAPPY CAMPERS.  >:(

Last year the Yosemite Fund had some Guide Markers put into the park with Tom Hutchings THE MIWOK and Chief Dick THE MIWOK.

You see, we Paiutes believe that YNPS should have integrity concerning the history of our people, the original Indians of Yosemite and the history of the Park.

They found more photos in their catalog and many photos that showed "Piutes" were not in the catalog files and a couple photos did not have the titles on them? Like the one "Piute Chiefs Lodge" on one of my first posts.

(http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/5808/piuteschieflodge8fo.jpg)

This photo at Yosemite National Park Research Center did not have the title "Piute Chief's Lodge". The photo at the park was cropped, only showing the photo, but no title.  :-?

Years ago YNPS went into an unheard of 15 year agreement with the American Indian Council of Mariposa aka the Southern Sierra Miwuks. Here is the agreement below:

http://www.nps.gov/yose/planning/lodge/html/ylarp_exsum.htm

This non-profit group is made up of current and former employees of Yosemite National Park Service.  :o

They are also going for federal recognition, which some people believe would be a conflict of interest. To become a federally recognized tribe you have to have historical documentation to prove you were always in Yosemite.

Glenn, do you think that YNPS is gonna to admit they were wrong?  :o (Even though they are terribly wrong in a lot of Paiutes opinion).

It made some Paiutes, who are directly tied to Yosemite, read more of the parks and certain employees documentation and they were SHOCKED!  :o

We always believed the YNPS was doing the right thing, but we KNOW now that they were not looking after the true history of Yosemite, but could be manipulated...and some Paiutes have the proof.

Some people have said no one at YNPS has ever read Lafayette H. Bunnell's book, which was the only person to meet and write about Chief Tenaya and his band.  :-/

We Paiutes are saddened that YNPS does want to address this.  :-/ , but it is the truth and the Park should have the highest integrity, plus they are killing off the history of the Paiutes of Yosemite.  :-[

They are now trying to work with this "Quisling" from a Mono Paiute group. A group of ONE. We believe because of his ego, the park will just continue and his him for validation. Yet in our opinion he doesn't know squat!  :P If he did he would've known about the history of the Paiutes in Yosemite.

The truth Ahwahneechees.


*Also the story of Chief Tenaya was missing from Yosemite Indian Museum. The MAIN MAN.  :o

Here is a short bio about Chief Tenaya;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_Tenaya







Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: Yosemite_Indian on June 29, 2006, 12:41:49 AM
Quote
Here is a link to a site with lots of different viewers. They even have one that works with computer screens.
http://www.berezin.com/3D/viewers1.htm
http://www.berezin.com/3D/screenscope.htm
Yosemite Indian do your people still practice traditional crafts. Stuff like basketmaking, clothing and footwear.  Did they do any sort of carving wood or bone? The New Zealand Maori had a great tradition in this
Here are some of mine. Traditionally, these are whalebone, mine are beef.
(http://users.tpg.com.au/jonsey/images/bones.jpg)

Yes basketry, dancing, leather work, beading, feather work and outfit making. Collecting traditional Paiute foods.


Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn-k on June 29, 2006, 06:53:00 AM
Yosemite Indian, I have been around people talking about trying to get recognized.  I know some of them.  I have met some of the people helping them.  It seems some may be going for the obvious future profit potential.  Politics being what they are, are in full force in the park.  I am all for the Indian businesses if it helps them and they use it for the benefit of all who are willing to work for it -- not just for the group who has control of the purse strings.  It seems that alliances should be formed and groups should work together based on truth but politics and big money many times  do not mix with truth.  I have been upstairs and in the history room at the museum.  Even had a meal or two there with friends and YNPS employees.

Even if there is little chance of changes because of the issues and politics involved, you can bet that I will present some information to my friends.  Truth is still truth.  Should make for lively conversation at the next get together.

Do your people have gatherings that the public are allowed at?  Here they have PowWows and Big Time.  There is a group from Stockton who does traditional dancing and drumming at the PowWows, that comes here.  I had a good conversation with the head man of the group.  Very tall -- nice guy.  I think it's great that some care enough to continue to try to pass on the old traditions before it is lost.

Jonesy --did you carve those --Are you an honorary Maori?

Thanks for the viewer link, Jonesy.  I guess we should start a page of public domain stereo pictures for educational purposes- maybe in off the  topic area, then we could share and print old pictures at home that should be preserved and studied along with information pertinent to each one.
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: jonseyhay on June 29, 2006, 04:48:24 PM
Yes the bone carvings are mine. I'm not Maori but spent a fair bit of my youth on Marae. Mrs Goanna jonsey and bunch of my neices and nephews are.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marae
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: Yosemite_Indian on June 29, 2006, 05:45:57 PM
Quote
Yosemite Indian, I have been around people talking about trying to get recognized.  I know some of them.  I have met some of the people helping them.  It seems some may be going for the obvious future profit potential.  Politics being what they are, are in full force in the park.  I am all for the Indian businesses if it helps them and they use it for the benefit of all who are willing to work for it -- not just for the group who has control of the purse strings.  It seems that alliances should be formed and groups should work together based on truth but politics and big money many times  do not mix with truth.  I have been upstairs and in the history room at the museum.  Even had a meal or two there with friends and YNPS employees.

Even if there is little chance of changes because of the issues and politics involved, you can bet that I will present some information to my friends.  Truth is still truth.  Should make for lively conversation at the next get together.

Do your people have gatherings that the public are allowed at?  Here they have PowWows and Big Time.  There is a group from Stockton who does traditional dancing and drumming at the PowWows, that comes here.  I had a good conversation with the head man of the group.  Very tall -- nice guy.  I think it's great that some care enough to continue to try to pass on the old traditions before it is lost.

Jonesy --did you carve those --Are you an honorary Maori?

Thanks for the viewer link, Jonesy.  I guess we should start a page of public domain stereo pictures for educational purposes- maybe in off the  topic area, then we could share and print old pictures at home that should be preserved and studied along with information pertinent to each one.

Glenn,

We don't object to them going for federal recognition. That is not even what most Paiutes care about. What we object to is that  Yosemite Mono Paiute people were implied, changed to Miwuks. In some cases we have been called "visitors" and "late-comers" when we were the original band of Chief Tenaya and that can be proven.  :-?

Some of our ancestors have disappeared from Yosemite history, like Captain John and now even Chief Tenaya is being side-lined to obscurity. In some cases Chief Tenaya's story has been sanitizied and many Mono Paiute references about his life taken out.

Many of the Yosemite Paiute photos I have posted here are not in Yosemite Research Library and should be.

Than some of our descendents have been changed to Miwoks like Chief Dick, Lancisco Wilson, Old Rube, Mono Brown (even his name says he was not Miwok), Lucy Sam-Brown, Captain Sam and Suzie Sam, their children, Young Charlie, Tom Hutchings and so on.

Glenn, we have checked and there are practically NO Miwok men in Yosemite. Most lived in camps down in the foothills and some went to work or dance there, but when it comes to Indians who lived there, they were bascially Paiutes. Most Miwuk women married white miners and settlers really early and moved on. Now some of their descendents are claiming they were always part of the Miwuk culture. Yet when we checked most were really Casson or other type of Yokuts. Yokuts were not the original people of Yosemite. They moved into the area to work for Yosemite around the early 1900s from Madera and Merced counties.

Now in books, publications, and pamphlets some of our own people are now Miwuk leaders. They do claim Chief Bautista as their chief, yet he was James Savage's right hand man. He helped keep the Indians in line for Jim Savage when they were digging for gold and captured run-a-ways. How can a chief of the docile Miwoks be the leader of war-like Paiutes and Yokuts? That could never happen and never did.

For their petition for federal recognition they used Tom Hutchings, the Mono Paiute man above, as one that kept their people together, yet none of his descendents are in their group. Nor do they want to be. Why change him and use him, but not have his people in your group? Why even use him in the first place.

The same with Chief Dick and other Paiutes.

They even took the title of Captain away from Captain Jim. They gave the title to an unknown Miwuk man. Yet Captain Jim had some of the most children around Yosemite, Hetch Hetchy, Mono Lake and Bridgeport. Several of his daughters were the most famous basketmakers in Yosemite. Yet Yosemite's Indian Expert (which is a joke) had their husband Young Charlie as a Miwuk chief, yet he was Paiute;

In one publication that people use as a big reference that had Tom Hutchings as a Miwok states that Young Charlie is a Yosemite Miwuk Chief on pages 147 and 150.

here are the references;

(http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/attachment/rw/localities.northam.usa.states.california.counties.mariposa/359/attachment-1/-3SptiDYfS8Yp8ZO8zchuB/Tina_and_Nellie_Jim_Charlie.jpg)

*notice the book refers to CAPTAIN Jim as Pete Jim. Yet those they claim are Miwuk royality are "Captains" and "Chiefs", yet they were not.

Then in the same book, page 79, the official Yosemite Indian expert has Jennie Charlie-Sam as a Mono Lake Paiute. Young Charlies sister.

(http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/attachment/rw/localities.northam.usa.states.california.counties.mariposa/359/attachment-2/ZhNpYCbcM2MImomGfHX7oC/JENNIE_SAME_BATES_BOOK.jpg)

That is a few BIG mistakes they 'suddenly' created. We expected bett
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: Yosemite_Indian on June 29, 2006, 07:04:31 PM
Glenn what did you think about the Cave and kiva like house?  :)

(http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/8262/caves4ed.jpg)

In olden times Paiute men got most of their visions in caves and that is how they got their Puh-ha (medicine). Caves were very powerful. Paiutes are related to Pueblo Indians. Caves were like the Mother Earth and they went into Mother Earth and were re-born a new when they received their puha. Which was in a form an animal or reptilian spirit.

A lot of caves in Yosemite were sealed up?   :o I don't know why they would do that? That was done a long time ago.

Paiutes also lived in a couple of caves around Hetch Hetchy. They found the oldest Central California intact basket in a cave in Hetch Hetchy, which was a Paiute burden basket.

(http://img270.imageshack.us/img270/5784/hetchhetchyindianpaiutebasket8.jpg)
Hetch Hetchy Indian burden basket found in a cave: Paiute.

Yosemite Indian "expert" said it got there because of "trade" between Miwuks/Paiutes. Yet here is the friendly relations (the truth) between the two, they were enemies;

http://www.yosemite.ca.us/library/notes_on_hetch-hetchy_valley.html

"...This gentleman informed me that, up to a very recent date, this valley was disputed ground between the Pah Utah Indians from the eastern slope and the Big Creek Indians from the western slope of the Sierras; they had several fights, in which the Pah Utahs proved victorious. The latter still visit the valley every fall to gather acorns, which abound in this locality."

Some "friendly trade"... huh lol  ::)

Now there was trade, but between Mono Lake Paiutes and the Ahwahneechees, who were their brethren, but not between Mono Paiutes and Miwuks who were enemies up till about the late 1880s.

Here is a natural grinding stone out in the middle of the desert.

(http://img305.imageshack.us/img305/9929/morter2xt.jpg)





Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: jonseyhay on June 29, 2006, 10:11:41 PM
http://www.travel-pictures-gallery.com/imagepagenewz04.html

Here is some information on the houses on a Marae The main house is the Wharenui or meeting house, these  buildings usually represents a notable male ancestor of the Marae/hapu. They are carved inside and out with stylized images of the Iwi's (or tribe's) ancestor, although the style used for the faces varies from tribe to tribe. The ridgepole along the top of the roof represents the backbone of the person. The houses always have names, sometimes the name of a famous ancestor of the iwi or sometimes a figure from M[ch257]ori mythology. Sometimes meeting houses are built where many M[ch257]ori are present, even though it is not the location of a tribe; typically, a college or school with many M[ch257]ori students
The Wharenui is used for Hui (meetings/conferences), tangi (funerals), and moe (accommodation/sleeping).
While a Wharenui is considered sacred, it is not a church or house of worship, but religious rituals may take place in front of or inside it. No food may be taken into a M[ch257]ori meeting house.

The Wharekai or dining Hall is where food is eaten. There is no "special' protocol associated with the Wharekai except normal standards of decency and conduct.
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn-k on June 29, 2006, 10:31:20 PM
I saw a movie called the Whale Rider , Jonesy.  It was Maori I think -- excellent movie --- How true to life? I don't know. :-/
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn-k on June 29, 2006, 10:50:23 PM
Yosemite Indian, I loved the cave and Kiva like house.  I am a troglodyte -- how could I not.  :)

There is a different feeling when you are surounded by earth as I am right now.  Kind of like the ledgendary vampire having to return to his native soil at night.  I do not like to be away from my cabin  and it is always a hurried driving desire  to get back from the valley below to my hole in the side of the mountain.  

We spent the good part of a day exploring the Lava tubes in Northern California.  

I have considered building some Native American style structures on my property.  They just seem to fit with the earth better--- not like the houses built in the urban sprawl of the big cities.

I have always planned on landscaping my uphill patio with a miniature scene of a Native American pueblo.  I have a picture of Acoma I was considering modeling it after.  Sassy says after I finish more of the cabin. :-/
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: jonseyhay on June 29, 2006, 10:59:25 PM
Don't know about the film mate, I haven't seen it. I guess that like most movies it has something of real life in it.
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn-k on June 29, 2006, 11:06:59 PM
It seems that history should not have to be changed to get Federal Recognition --- but once again --- that type of thing has happened throughout history where money and politics come together.  

Cave sealing --  mine destruction -- public access destruction -- tons of it going on in the US now -- a great drive to take property away and keep individuals from having claim on it.  Has something to do with some of the group of people who have gotten themselves into leadership positions -- probably some kind of conspiracy -but I guess I better stop there on that -- don't want to have to move myself to the off topic rants section. ::)

On another note --- I also love the old Paiute Indian mans house-- It's really great.

In Mexico-- Bahuichivo, I ate lunch in a little old shack about 15' x 20' with adjoining animal cages.  You could see light through the cracks in the walls all around -- maybe 2 tables in the place-- It was run by a very old little grandma and her grand daughter af about 12 years old.  It was highly recommended by the locals and some of the best food I ate down there.  There is a lot of good food down there and none of it comes from Taco Bell.  Point being -- some of the coolest places are just old - rustic and functional.  This was the little old ladies house and provided her with a place to make a living also -- choice between her place and any chain restaurant???  -- No contest -- she wins.
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: Yosemite_Indian on June 30, 2006, 01:48:11 AM
Quote
Yosemite Indian, I loved the cave and Kiva like house.  I am a troglodyte -- how could I not.  :)

There is a different feeling when you are surrounded by earth as I am right now.  Kind of like the legendary vampire having to return to his native soil at night.  I do not like to be away from my cabin  and it is always a hurried driving desire  to get back from the valley below to my hole in the side of the mountain.  

We spent the good part of a day exploring the Lava tubes in Northern California.  

I have considered building some Native American style structures on my property.  They just seem to fit with the earth better--- not like the houses built in the urban sprawl of the big cities.

I have always planned on landscaping my uphill patio with a miniature scene of a Native American pueblo.  I have a picture of Acoma I was considering modeling it after.  Sassy says after I finish more of the cabin. :-/

There is nothing like feeling the cool earth surround you on a hot day.  :P It is a great feeling to smell the earth.

Hey Glenn did you know that the Paiutes where up in the Lava Beds with Captain Jack. They aligned themselves with Captain Jack and then the survivors ran up to Oregon. Chief Ochio the chief in the Oregon photo was one of them and so was Polino. Sarah Winnemucca tried to make peace between our people and the whites, but some listened and some didn't. That is why some Paiutes love her and some don't.

I agree about history, especially when it affects my people.  :(

I don't see why they just couldn't do it with out having to change things. I think because they couldn't find enough credible information. There were no Yosemite Miwoks...so they had to make some up... ;D

Actually this was all about Indian Housing. It is a loooong story, but when I have time I will explain.  ::)

Here is some more Paiute living quarters in Yosemite:

(http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/112/paiuteindianhutscalbierstadtch.jpg)

The above is just lumber propped up against a tree to make a quick home.

The one below shows that Yosemite area Paiutes used all available types of boards, lumber and what-nots to create quick camps. Paiutes were nomadic and followed the seasonal foods.

(http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/6665/piuteindiancamphazeltineinthes.jpg)

Jonesy those houses look like the Native American style houses found in the Pacific Northwest part of North America, like the Haida and others.

I heard that some Native American languages are related to Polynesian, like the Maoris.




Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: jonseyhay on June 30, 2006, 03:18:36 AM
Debate has raged over where the Maori people of New Zealand originally came from. There was some thought that they had originated from the Americas, possibly the south; this I think was based on some similarities in language.

It is commonly assumed by Maori that they arrived in a fleet of seven great ocean going waka (canoes) that came to New Zealand around 700 years ago. The seven Waka in the great Heke from Hawaiki where: Aotea, Kurahaupo, Mataatua, Tainui, Takitimu, Te Arawa and Tokomaru. Most believe their tupuna reached these shores on one or more of those Waka in ancient times. Every tribe knows which waka their ancestors arrived in. This was the last great human migration – the final leg in an epic journey that started 6000 years ago. Although the Maori had no written history as we would know it, these stories and legends would have been handed down as an oral history. They would have also been recorded in the carvings and tukutuku panel's of the Wharenui. Each panel's design signifies a certain tribal historical event or legend. Thus, the tukutuku itself is a way of preserving tribal lore and helping transmit it to the next generation.

BTW. The Maori name for New Zealand is Aotearoa, (the Land of the Long White Cloud) this, because that is what it looks like when approached by sea.

More recent thought was that they could have come from Taiwan or Indonesia. These great seafarers reached Fiji, and then eventually moved on, finally settling in New Zealand about 700 years ago. Now their search for an answer has led to a startling finding that the men and women appear to have come from different places. The men appear to have come from PNG, and the women from Taiwan. This, based on DNA evidence.

Yosemite Indian,
Did the Paiute have any sort of tribal meeting house or central building for gatherings? If so do you have any detailed information on how they where built? What construction sequence, structure, materials, etc. Possibly some photos of the interior that you could share with us. Is there any carving or design work inside these buildings?
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn-k on June 30, 2006, 12:14:52 PM
Yosemite Indian, after my burned out modem this morning I am out of time to post today but you can be sure that tonight I will get back to this very interesting discussion.  

There is a great rock or mountain sticking up from a field and hilly area in northern California near the Lava Beds National Monument somewhere--- there was much ancient art on it.  Was that by your people.?
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: Yosemite_Indian on June 30, 2006, 12:53:43 PM
Jonesy, we Paiutes were not like the Maori and sadly did not have the same type of housing.  :(

We were more like the Aboriginees of Austrailia. We were nomadic and had a territory that we travel around in 'hunting n gathering'.  :)

I remember seeing that movie "Rabbit Proof Fence" and that is how we lived. It could be the story of the Paiutes.

The Aboriginees have rock art so do we. Our is called Petroglyphs. There are some located in North eastern Yosemite National Park around the eastern side.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Glenn  :)

I haven't gone to the Lava beds. Everytime I try to go I end up at Susanville Rancheria visiting people I know or end up taking the trip ot Mount Shasta.

My cousin has been there several times when he stayed up around there. There are Paiutes in that area. They are called Kidu-Tucketta or Groundhog eaters.

Here is the more Maori style Native American culture type of housing from the Pacific Northwest, there are better photos, but these are a couple of quickies. This is only Haida style housing;


(http://img307.imageshack.us/img307/7678/haidahouse3yb.jpg)

Large houses with huge totem poles in front.

(http://img307.imageshack.us/img307/3538/haidahouse10sw.jpg)

old black and white photo. the entrances were the circle round holes in the front. The person has a huge mask on his head, so it makes it look small, but was pretty big.

(http://img307.imageshack.us/img307/217/smallmodel9fe.jpg)

here is a carved model of a replica Haida house.

I have seen where the front's of the Haida houses were carved also. Their carvings are very interesting and well known around the world. They are just one tribe there are others, but I can't spell their names... :D ;)

They had their moieties carved on the totems and all over the place. Killer Whale, Shark, Bear, Raven, Eagle, Frog, and others.

The Killer Whale is like the Marois. Here is an example of their style of carving on agrilyte (i know I am spelling that wrong  ;))

http://www.tribalcrafts.com/hacpg4a.htm




Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: TxDirtDigger on June 30, 2006, 02:05:43 PM
Not certain how to post a link, but here's the address to one close to my neck of the woods:

http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/villagers/hank1/index.html

As Glenn said in an earlier post - just add poly and windows and you'd have a pretty decent shelter.  The more I think about it the better I like the idea . . . . . .

Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: jraabe on June 30, 2006, 02:50:31 PM
Interesting read DirtDigger

Here's a cross section of the house from the report:

(http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/villagers/hank1/images/house-section2.jpg)

And its expected overall look:

(http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/villagers/hank1/images/reconstruct-cutaway3.jpg)

Here is a link to an earlier posting from folks who live nomadically in much the same way today:

... Well, I couldn't find it. It was a diagram of a pit house built into a hillside. Very simple to build in less than a day and could see you through the winter. It was done by a couple who live as nomads on public land and move around while publishing a little newsletter on survival skills, camping and living lightly. I sent them $20 in May of '05 and got a big package with just about everything they have published since 1990.

Modern primatives... seems like an oxymoron. But they prove that anyone can live free if they decide to. You don't have to wait until you get the five acres, the septic system installed, etc, etc. I find the idea somewhat inspiring. Neo-Indians.

I'll provide the information I had and where I ordered the newsletters - if you are interested. I don't know that this address is live or if these folks are still doing their publication. Send them a few bucks and see what happens. No guarantees, but if they aren't there your letter will likely come back to you.

Light Living Library
POB 190
Philomath, OR 97370
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn-k on June 30, 2006, 07:59:37 PM
Here's a link to the Whale Rider.

http://www.whaleriderthemovie.co.nz/start.html

A screen shot showing  a building from the movie-- wonderful scenery and a great movie showing what I assume is accurate Maori culture -possibly enhanced a bit for the movie. :-/
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn-k on June 30, 2006, 08:24:56 PM
The design of the HANK1 house could be easily and safely made with a few modifications using Mike Oehlers specs.  Windows could be added under gables if desired.  Considerations would have to be made for drainage since you would be deviating from Mikes designs but it could still be done.

I could easily see a 24' square, round or octagon design here. 8-)

We flew into Susanville several years ago, Yosemite Indian.  We rented a Jeep Wagoneer and traveled the area.  I think that was when we went to The Lava tubes.

Did your people have any presence in the Lassen Volcanic Park area -We hiked to  Bumpass Hell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bumpass_Hell) - and what about Shasta- I have heard it is special to some cultures.

(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/800px-Inside_Bumpass_Hell_in_Lassen.jpg)
Photograph by Daniel Mayer. Taken in October 2003
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: TxDirtDigger on June 30, 2006, 08:44:48 PM
Ok, temptation is getting the best of me.  Gonna have to stroll about the property a bit and see what kind of a location I can find for such a structure.  Glenn - I'd be interested in getting more of your input in regards to accounting for drainage.  It appears the original was more earth bermed than underground, but I assume one would still need to build in such a way that rain is routed away from the structure as much as possible.  
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn-k on June 30, 2006, 08:54:00 PM
Depends on the property - hillside would work combined with french drains -

If you wanted to do something bermed on flatter ground it could be done - Mike had ideas for that too.

Half buried on flat ground may require decent sumps.  A hill and bermed with earth cover  may be a better choice on flat ground so you don't wake up drownded --that's probably not a real word but looked cute in this context.  Flash floods would need to be considered ---I hate it when that happens. :-/
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn-k on June 30, 2006, 09:10:11 PM
I was just thinking of Manzanar earlier when a NPS search brought it up as former home of the Paiute.
Quote
Manzanar National Historic Site

Manzanar National Historic Site is one of ten permanent war relocation camps that existed during World War II. It was the temporary home of 10,000 people of Japanese ancestry who had been removed from their homes along the West Coast following the signing of Executive Order 9066. The camp existed from the spring of 1942 until the fall of 1945.

Because of the importance of this camp in the story of World War II, it was designated as a National Historic Site in 1992. It is the only one of the ten permanent camps that has this designation.

Prior to World War II the 813 acres comprising Manzanar National Historic Site had other periods of human habitation. For thousands of years it was the home of the Paiute tribe before they were marched to Fort Tejon in the mid 1800s to make way for European ranchers and farmers. In the early 1900's it was a thriving agricultural community with a population of approximately 200 people. A descendant of one of the early ranching families at Manzanar would later figure prominently in Manzanar War Relocation Camp. His name was Ralph Merritt and he served as the project director in the camp from the fall of 1942 until after the camp closing in 1945.


Note that there is another camp like this near Tulelake area.  Also Paiute home area?

(http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/Images/catg17.jpg)

From http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/categrs/etnc5.htm

I hope the NSA has a nice new home for me in one of the new Haliburton Concentration Camps (http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/february2006/010206detentioncamps.htm) that are currently being built in the USA.

That's all -- I'm not saying anymore --- I was talking about my new home -- this is not an off topic rant. :-/
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: jonsey/downunder on July 01, 2006, 12:25:35 AM
Glenn,
 I would think that the Maori culture in the movie would be accurate. Maori like most folk are sensitive about how they are portrayed and I think that the moviemakers would have made sure of that.
You will see in that image the tukutuku panel's between the carved posts. These where woven by the women and depict the history of the people from that Wharenui. The posts would represent ancestors and would be distinguishable by the moko (tattoo) on the faces. The reason for the moko was to show everyone who they are... Family, Tribe, Status etc
The thing I find interesting is how the house, as well as providing shelter also provides the history of a people.

Yosemite Indian,
Thanks for the links to those sites I have found the carvings of great interest. I would love to see some of the Paiute artwork as well if you have some photos, old or new. It's good to see how the young are dealing with tradition.

Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn kangiser on July 01, 2006, 08:56:04 AM
Interesting to get more background, Jonesy.  It seemed the moviemaker worked pretty closely with them.  It was a very impressive movie.
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn kangiser on July 01, 2006, 09:05:32 AM
Here is Petroglyph Point or Cliff in the old Tulelake bed.  Apparently it was Modoc's who made the Petroglyphs from their reed canoes on the sides of the cliff.

(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/petroglyph.jpg)
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: jonsey/downunder on July 01, 2006, 05:34:46 PM
Glenn,
Another good movie about M[ch257]ori is the 1983 New Zealand movie Utu. http://movies2.nytimes.com/gst/movies/movie.html?v_id=52100

Directed by Geoff Murphy and staring Anzac Wallace it is loosely based on events from Te Kooti's War. Te kooti had a base at Puketapu Pa northwest of Lake Waikaremoana. I posted a link some time ago on a building I worked on up there. http://www.johnscott.net.nz/pages/aniwaniwa.html
Aniwaniwa Visitor Centre is also a museum and has some artifacts from that conflict.
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn kangiser on July 02, 2006, 07:59:11 AM
Utu Looks interesting, Jonesy.  I'd hate to ask for directions to get to the Visitor center - I don't think I could say the words.
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: Amanda_931 on July 02, 2006, 07:16:19 PM
Saw The World's Fastest Indian with Anthony Hopkins.  Set in Invercargill LA and the Bonneville Salt Flats.

Not much about indigenous housing there, unless you count Bert Munro's shed. Or a handful of small buildings with low-pitched, mostly hip, roofs, a used car lot in the San Fernando Valley, desert gas stations and a motel.

Instant review--I don't know if everybody involved was way too close to it as they talked about it (in the little features on the DVD), or it was better than I thought, truly could be either, or both.





Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: Yosemite Indian on July 07, 2006, 01:22:46 AM
Quote
The design of the HANK1 house could be easily and safely made with a few modifications using Mike Oehlers specs.  Windows could be added under gables if desired.  Considerations would have to be made for drainage since you would be deviating from Mikes designs but it could still be done.

I could easily see a 24' square, round or octagon design here. 8-)

We flew into Susanville several years ago, Yosemite Indian.  We rented a Jeep Wagoneer and traveled the area.  I think that was when we went to The Lava tubes.

Did your people have any presence in the Lassen Volcanic Park area -We hiked to  Bumpass Hell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bumpass_Hell) - and what about Shasta- I have heard it is special to some cultures.

(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/800px-Inside_Bumpass_Hell_in_Lassen.jpg)
Photograph by Daniel Mayer. Taken in October 2003

Glenn,

Paiutes were in the middle of Lassen County. Pitt Rivers, who were even we Paiutes had a lot of respect for because they would skin you alive lived around the norhern part closer to Mount Lassen. Washoes were on the southern tip of Lassen. Maidus were on the far western part, up in the Mountains.

They all fought with each other.  :(

Later the Pitt River and Paiutes joined to fight non-Indians for awhile. Some joined the Modocs to fight around the Lava beds.

Around Bridgeport, Mammoth Lakes and eastern areas of California Paiutes lived around Hot Springs.

Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: Yosemite Indian on July 07, 2006, 01:32:56 AM
Quote
I was just thinking of Manzanar earlier when a NPS search brought it up as former home of the Paiute.
Quote
Manzanar National Historic Site

Manzanar National Historic Site is one of ten permanent war relocation camps that existed during World War II. It was the temporary home of 10,000 people of Japanese ancestry who had been removed from their homes along the West Coast following the signing of Executive Order 9066. The camp existed from the spring of 1942 until the fall of 1945.

Because of the importance of this camp in the story of World War II, it was designated as a National Historic Site in 1992. It is the only one of the ten permanent camps that has this designation.

Prior to World War II the 813 acres comprising Manzanar National Historic Site had other periods of human habitation. For thousands of years it was the home of the Paiute tribe before they were marched to Fort Tejon in the mid 1800s to make way for European ranchers and farmers. In the early 1900's it was a thriving agricultural community with a population of approximately 200 people. A descendant of one of the early ranching families at Manzanar would later figure prominently in Manzanar War Relocation Camp. His name was Ralph Merritt and he served as the project director in the camp from the fall of 1942 until after the camp closing in 1945.


Note that there is another camp like this near Tulelake area.  Also Paiute home area?

(http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/Images/catg17.jpg)

From http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/categrs/etnc5.htm

I hope the NSA has a nice new home for me in one of the new Haliburton Concentration Camps (http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/february2006/010206detentioncamps.htm) that are currently being built in the USA.

That's all -- I'm not saying anymore --- I was talking about my new home -- this is not an off topic rant. :-/

Paiutes lived around Manzanar and remember seeing Japanese people around.

A lot of Paiutes were pushed down to Inyo County.

Mono Paiutes were around Mono Lake, Hetch Hetchy and Yosemite. They were pushed out of Yosemite. They were pushed out of Hetch Hetchy because they wanted the water. Than they were pushed out of Mono Lake because they wanted the water there, they were sent to Owens Lake around Inyo County. Than Los Angeles took that water and then the Paiutes who were placed down there now had a desert for beach front property.  :o  :(

Paiutes were called "Water Utes". That is the name early white explorers named us, because we were always by water. "Pah" is water in Paiute.  "Ute" came from the tribe that Fremont had just left. We are really the Numa.

After the gold went bust...the new gold was WATER and still is.  :-/
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: Yosemite Indian on July 07, 2006, 02:16:42 AM
Quote
Yosemite Indian, after my burned out modem this morning I am out of time to post today but you can be sure that tonight I will get back to this very interesting discussion.  

There is a great rock or mountain sticking up from a field and hilly area in northern California near the Lava Beds National Monument somewhere--- there was much ancient art on it.  Was that by your people.?

Glenn  :)

Petroglyphs was a speciality of Paiute people. Along the eastern ridge of the Sierras from way up northern California, to eastern Yosemite, Sequioa, and down is lined with petroglyphs.

A lot of them are reddish which we Paiutes used a type of reddish clay for protection.

Concerning ceremonies here is a sequence of Eadward Muybridge photos showing a ceremony at a Paiute camp in Yosemite;

It is a look back at Indian life in Yosemite Valley. It is look back at Paiute life in along the Merced River.
  
Here are the photos in sequence. Remember Eadweard Muybridge also did those great photos in motion of nude people running and animals in motion.
  
photo no. 1571; Here Muybridge can see the Indian encampment along the Merced in the distance as he approaches. I can't tell if he is on a boat or on the other side of the river.

(http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/2723/11571indianencampmentonthemerc.jpg)
  
photo no. 1572; Here Muybridge is getting closer to the Indian encampment along the banks of the Merced. You can see the granite rocks in the back.

(http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/7383/21572indianencampmentonthemerc.jpg)
  
photo no. 1573; Muybridge is now on the beach and shoting the village. You can see a camp fire in the close distance.

(http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/7306/31573indianencampmentonthemerc.jpg)
  
photo no. 1574; Here Muybridge goes to the "Piute Chief's Lodge" and photographs the interior of the Paiute chief's lodge. He probably went up to the headman first to ask if he could take photos or try to converse with him. That last sentence is just a guess, but it is probable since that is the first photo up close.

(http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/3313/slodge1dd.jpg)
  
photo no. 1575; Muybridge takes photo of a meeting of ceremonial significance. Someone is talking. In Paiute we had people we called "Talkers" who told of the traditions and history of ceremonies since we had no written language.

(http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/3523/51575amorningconcertonthemerce.jpg)
  
photo no. 1576; Muybridge walks over and shots a small group or family sitting in their own corner of the camp. In the back you can see another small family grouping. They have their Wonos in front and other baskets. A Wono is Paiute for Burden basket.

(http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/5809/61576asummerlodgeintheyosemite.jpg)
  
photo no. 1577; Muybridge takes a photo of men sitting on a log. They are wearing hats and other western style clothing.

(http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/6928/71577bucksonalog3ry.jpg)
  
photo no. 1578; don't have.
  
photo no. 1579; Muybridge takes photos of young teen males swimming in the Merced. Trying to keep cool in the summer. The title indicates that it is summer time and is called "A Summer Day's Sport". The kids are trying to keep cool as the older people meet.

(http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/400/ssport5gx.jpg)
  
photo no. 1580; Muybridge takes photo of an "Octenigarian" and a young boy. The face of the woman is blurred. They have a simple camp.

(http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/4652/91580theoctenerigan1mu.jpg)
  
photo no. 1581; This one I don't have, but it is supposed be of a Medicine mad sleeping in his cedar house. http://www.p4a.com/itemsummary/210343.htm
  
photo no. 1582; Muybridge then goes to photograph women leaching acorns and making bread. One is stirring her basket.
  
(http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/3465/101582makingbread2rh.jpg)

photo no. 1853; Don't have this one.
  
photo no. 1854; Five marriage age girls. One on the farthest left wears an early style Paiute beaded collar. The others have headbands.

(http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/9103/111584agroupofmariposabelles7g.jpg)
  
photo no. 1855; Muybridge than takes his camera to the outer edge of the camp where there is a Paiute sweatlodge with someone in it. Paiutes would sweat than jump into the river to cleanse themselves.

(http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/1421/121585bathhouseintheyosemite2l.jpg)
  
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: Yosemite Indian on July 07, 2006, 02:20:32 AM
photo no. 1856; At the same camp is the famous German born painter Albert Bierstadt who is working on one of his paintings or drawings. Paiute children are to his right watching him, like kids do. Meanwhile the ceremony continues in the background. The group in the back looks like they are performing a Paiute round dance off to the side as the marriage age girls sit in the foreground.

(http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/8012/sstudio8hv.jpg)

photo no. 1857; Muybridge photographs Albert Bierstadt painting a an Indian man in front of the Paiute chief's lodge as other Indian men watch Bierstadt paint from behind. The man in front of the chief's lodge looks like Captain John, the leader of the Yosemite - Mono Lake Paiutes. The man who one of my elders said threw the rock that killed Chief Tenaya.

(http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/6775/sstudio7mt.jpg)


  
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn kangiser on July 07, 2006, 07:20:19 AM
Outstanding information, Yosemite Indian.  This is really a great look into the methods of shelter and family life of your people.  I think as far as survival goes this should also show people that there is no excuse for being without shelter.  Earth friendly -- these shelters leave only a small pile of organic  and safe mineral matter.  Not a pile of formaldehyde treated products, sheetrock, plastic, fiberglass  and glass.  I guess it will never be considered practical for mainstream modern society though.  Unless our leaders manage to get us nuked. :-/  Then people will be scrambling for this type of knowledge. :)

Regarding the Petroglyphs, Yosemite Indian wrote:

Quote
A lot of them are reddish which we Paiutes used a type of reddish clay for protection.

This is interesting because the grinding rock I found had a red powder in the bottom of it.  I assumed it was a type of clay- I remember thinking it was war paint-- but wasn't sure.  I wish I still had some but it is long gone - I found it about 28 years ago give or take a couple years.  Now it seems more likely that this was a Paiute grinding rock.



Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: Freeholdfarm on July 09, 2006, 09:36:31 PM
I just found this thread and read the whole thing at one sitting!  It's quite interesting to me because we live a little north of some of the area talked about, near Klamath Falls.  I moved here with my grandmother only a couple of years ago, so we don't know the area very well yet.  It's been interesting to read about, and see pictures of, the shelters people used here a long time ago.  Thanks for all the posted pictures!

Kathleen
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn-k on July 09, 2006, 10:24:28 PM
Glad you are enjoying it, Kathleen.  This has long been one of my favorite topics and Yosemite Indian has really enhanced this thread with quality research, pictures, history, and information on the Paiute culture.  

It seems to me that in the old indigenous lifestyle, the earth was really your friend.  It is different than just living on it in a modern home built from manufactured materials.  You had to learn to know what it could do for you.   You had to learn how to get shelter from it , care for it,  and they to a much larger degree than I, learned to totally rely and survive on it.  It is great to even know what little I have learned about the old ways.
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: Yosemite_Indian on July 09, 2006, 11:47:27 PM
Kathleen and Glenn and others  :)

I am glad you enjoyed seeing Paiute culture. Here is a map of Oregon Natives which includes Paiutes;

(http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/6595/oregonnatives1am.jpg)

Paiutes had a large area in the Southern Eastern Oregon part.

Here are Oregon Paiute petroglpyhs, similar to those found all through out the Sierra Nevadas, eastern Yosemite, Lassen county and through out the Great Basin.

(http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/2259/oregonpaiutepetroglpyhs16ty.jpg)

Petrogyphs in the middle of vast Great Basin, which was once a giant lake called Lake Lahotan.

Here is Chief Louie of the Burns Wada Tikutta or Indian Rice grass seed eaters.

(http://
http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/6062/paiutechiefcaptianlouieburnsor.jpg
)

Chief Louie 1845? - 1935

(http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/4224/wada7iw.jpg)

Indian Rice Grass or called Wai or Wada. Which this Paiute band is named after.

Here is a different type of Indigenous Housing. This time it is a cropped photo of Chief Louie's Camp. You can see a canvas Teepee style house which has a Plains Indian influence. Chief Louie is wearing the typical Plains style headdress. The rest of his band of Paiutes are now wearing western style clothing. You can also see an old buck board in the back.

(http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/1493/chieflouieandhisband191522tq.jpg)

Chief Louie's camp in 1915 in Oregon.

 :)





Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn-k on July 10, 2006, 12:07:51 AM
Yosemite Indian, it seems that I recall reading possibly in links while researching more of this  somewhere that the Government supplied teepee's to Paiutes they put on reservations? maybe because they stereotypically assumed that all Indians lived in teepees.  My understanding was that it was not native to them.  Is  there anything to this?  Chief Louies does look original though.

My brother-in-law (deceased) was  from the Siletz tribe - I dont know if it is part of the Alsea Yaquina or lower Tillamook or independant.  There was another Oregon Native Indian in the family also- married one of my grandmothers sisters I think.
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn kangiser on September 14, 2006, 07:52:41 AM
From a site John in Xaimen sent me from China'-http://www.amoymagic.com/main.htm  Check out their site to learn more.

Hakka Earthen Castles are inexpensive to build and maintain, last forever (some are over 1,000 years old), and are so aesthetic they appear to have sprung from the very earth itself.
Earthen homes are rammed into shape, layer by layer, using a mix of raw earth, sand, lime, glutinous rice, and brown sugar, and reinforced with ‘bones’ of bamboo and wood. Only upper floors have outer windows, and the massive wooden gates are sheathed in iron.

The first floor is for cooking, eating, socializing, and working. Grains and grandparents are stored on the second floor. The spryer young folk live on the third and fourth floors. Central courtyards usually have a well, mill, threshing floor, ancestral hall—everything but a basketball court.

(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/roundhousevalleysm.jpg)

(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/roundhousefuxingentrance.jpg)

(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/roundhousehakkaelder.jpg)
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: Leo on May 16, 2007, 05:48:41 PM
my hobby has been indigenous boats ,unlike todays clorox bottles they were designed for there particular use and available materials,this is the most interesting thread i have seen in a long time.  :)
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn kangiser on May 16, 2007, 09:56:45 PM
That's neat, Leo.  I really enjoy history - now that I'm not in school and no one is making me do it. ::)

This is one of my favorites also.  What can you  tell us about indigenous boats and how they fit in with the indigieous people?
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: Leo on May 17, 2007, 12:34:47 PM
Lots ,one of the most interesting is the red paint people who predate the native americans it seems the only body ever found was in newfoundland possibly the ancient ancestors of todays Eskimo.the abbey musem bar harbor main has a large collection of artifacts there in unknown tools.i knew what they were they were gouges for smoothing the frames of skin boats a double radius.there fire pits contained sword fish bills  obviously sea farer's they ringed the north Atlantic to Europe..A man dowsing for water  in maine a neighbor dug straight down to a red paint cache there spear points were finely done and extremely long..i will dig up a link or two .no Columbus didn't discover america ,Infact he was a late comer http://www.seacoastnh.com/history/prehistoric/redpaint.html and another better link http://www.usm.maine.edu/gany/webaa/newpage1.htm
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: Leo on May 17, 2007, 05:15:19 PM
when the spanish arrived they found chickens in Mexico .chickens are indigenous to China. supposed stone disk with a hole in the middle have been found on the west coast look like chineses anchors the lug or junk sail can not be improved upon for short handed sailing. they are reputed to have had vessels 500 feet long,the water tight bulkhead idea is said to have come from a piece of bamboo .those ancient ships had them.http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sultan/explorers2.html
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: fourx on May 17, 2007, 08:13:38 PM
Leo,  the website mentions ""porcelain shards washed up on the beaches of east Africa "" but there are extensive relics of the same type in Northern Australia, and evidence of well established trading linkls with the Aboriginal people, with trocus schell, pearls, and seafood suitable for preservation by drying being exchanged for pottery items. There was also considerable iter-breeding between the oriental and black aboriginal races, and many Aboriginal people in Northern Australia have very visable oriental features- although some secondary interbreeding would have happened during the Gold Rush period here, when there was a large influx of Chinese into the country.
While working in Papua New Guinea during the late 1970's I noticed that the children of a union between a  black person native to Papua New Guines and a Chinese ( not uncommon, because many of the stores in PNG are owned by Chinese) was identical to modern-day Indonesians and Malays- not hard to see how that happened if you remember the lower sea levels earlier in human history. It's also not hard to see the very striking facial and stature and perhaps personality connection between Native Americans and Malays- and between those from Southern India with our own Aboriginal people.
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn-k on May 18, 2007, 06:24:38 AM
Very interesting links, Leo and interesting information, Pete.  I read nearly all in the sites listed.  I haven't found what types of shelter they had yet but hope to expand on this thread with more info if possible. :)

Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn-k on May 18, 2007, 06:51:08 AM
Straying off from the above links led me to the mound builders of the Midwest.  It is mentioned that they were also used for residences.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/37/Miamisburg_jqj.jpg)

Miamisburg Mound, the largest conical mound in Ohio, is attributed to the Adena archaeological culture.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Emerald_Mound.jpg)

Occupied between 1250 and 1600 C.E., Mississippi's Emerald Mound is the second-largest ceremonial earthwork in the United States.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mound_Builders

Other interesting links

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureau_of_American_Ethnology

http://www.nmnh.si.edu/naa/exhibits.htm

http://www.nmnh.si.edu/naa/fletcher/fletcher.htm

(http://www.nmnh.si.edu/naa/fletcher/images/01598600.jpg)
Omaha earth lodge. Photo Lot 24, BAE 4558 Inv. 01598600.
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn-k on May 18, 2007, 08:18:16 AM
Obviously a lot of the information on indigenous housing is necessarily lost through the advance of time, but some of the indigenous peoples structures still remain, such as this fish weir in NJ.  


A bit hard to find this article so I am linking it here with reference to the author.  Please check it out if you have time.

(Shared with permission of the author.  Thanks, Allen)

The Fair Lawn/Paterson Fish Weir
Bulletin of the Archaeological Society of New Jersey, Vol. 54, 1999

by allen lutins
and
Anthony P. DeCondo

http://www.lutins.org/basnj.html

(http://www.lutins.org/weir0.gif)



(http://www.lutins.org/weir3.gif)

Quote
Utilization
Although contact-era accounts often mention Native American use of weirs, they are seldom comprehensive regarding the methodology employed. Most modern references to weir use (e.g., Cross 1965:25; Kraft 1986:76) have their basis in a description by James Adair, who lived among the Choctaw and Cherokee in the early- to mid-eighteenth century. In 1775 he described the use of a temporary brush weir thus:

    I have known [Indians] to fasten a wreath of long grape vines together, to reach across the river, with stones fastened at proper distances to rake the bottom; they will swim a mile with it whooping, and plunging all the way, driving the fish before them into their large cane pots.

These "large cane pots" were not analogous to stone structures such as the Fair Lawn/Paterson weir, so it is erroneous to presume that similar methodologies were employed. Given the extent of the spawning runs which took place in rivers (including the Passaic) where stone weirs are found, it is more likely that the primary method employed in their use was not to chase fish into the upstream-facing side of the structure, but rather to wait for spawning runs to conduct large quantities of fish against the downstream side. The use of such a passive method, requiring far less labor than that described in Adair's description, makes more sense, especially considering the numerous contact-era accounts attesting to Native American procurement of fish during spawning runs.

If you really get into this here is more. :)  http://www.lutins.org/thesis.html#4.3
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: Freeholdfarm on May 18, 2007, 10:40:19 AM
This is my favorite thread on this forum -- glad to see that more info. is being added to it!

Kathleen
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn-k on May 18, 2007, 11:14:19 AM
Glad you enjoy it. Kathleen.  

Sometimes I run out of ideas to research then someone posts something and other things of interest start showing up.

I just found a reference to the Adena people's shelter.
Below is one of their burial mounds.


(http://www.wvculture.org/images/graveck3.jpg)

Quote
A typical Adena house was built in a circular form from 15 to 45 feet in diameter. The walls consisted of paired posts tilted outward, joined to other wood to form a conical-shaped roof. The roof was covered with bark and the walls may have been bark, wickerwork or some combination. They were extensive traders as evidenced by the types of ,material found in the mounds they constructed. Copper from the western Great Lakes region and shells from the Gulf of Mexico, all attest to the range of their economic activity. In addition, the culture also practiced agriculture, hunting and fishing.

For more:

http://www.wvculture.org/sites/gravecreek.html
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn-k on May 18, 2007, 05:28:07 PM
Found a bit more about the Adena shelter.

(http://www.gbl.indiana.edu/figures/adena/adena4.gif)

Quote
House Traits

    (42) Post-mold patterns drcular, diameter 97 feet or more.

    The fact that Adena house patterns are circular is now well established by the finding of 23 such patterns on 9 sites in Kentucky. Records of earlier investigators give abundant evidence that such patterns have been previously found elsewhere, but they were not recognized as house patterns. These patterns occur in the hard clay subsoil in the old visages, under mounds, and are clearly discernible and unmistakable. The diameters are easily measured. The structures seem to fall into two classes: those circles having a diameter of 97 feet or more in diameter, a total of four, and those having a diameter of 60 feet or less, a total of nineteen. So far none has been found with diameters between these two dimensions. It is suspected that the significance of this division, if it continues to be verified by future excavations, will be found in the fact that the smaller size circles were houses, each of which had a single roof over it, and the larger circles indicate structures no one of which had a single roof over the entire structure because of its excessive diameter. Scattered post-molds in the interior of some of these large cirles suggest that rooms built against the inside of the circle may have had roofs. This would have led a central area without any roof. This area in the center of large circles of ten shows fire action on the structure floor.

    (43) Post-mold patterns circular, diameter 60 feet or less.

    The convenient size dwelling house for Adena seems to have been about 37 feet in diameter, although this dimension varies from 21 to 59.5 feet in houses on different sites. The median diameter is 37 feet and the average is 37 feet. Sixty feet seems to have been about the limit in size which would permit the construction of a roof over all, if indeed they were so large. No roof has ever been found, but its existence is predicated on the discovery of interior post-molds arranged in a regular pattern which might indicate roof supports (Webb and Snow 1945:52-53).
   
More from the source of the above - Roofing is in question in the article.


http://www.gbl.indiana.edu/abstracts/adena/post_structs.html

Start of the topic.  http://www.gbl.indiana.edu/abstracts/adena/foreword.html

We tend to think that life in the United States started mostly after the arrival of the Europeans.  Not so.  Hopefully it won't end there. :-?
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn-k on October 06, 2007, 10:52:37 PM
I found a very cool story about a bike ride across Malaysia with lots of pictures with captions.  The story is in fairly long chapters with the pictures interspersed throughout.  I just skimmed the story but it was all very interesting.

There are quite a few indigenous house and building pictures along with some cool boat building pix.

(http://www.terminalia.org/mad/146.jpg)

(http://www.terminalia.org/mad/53.jpg)
Pirogues and a large boat being built on the beach in Belo

(http://www.terminalia.org/mad/54.jpg)
A wood plank is bent using the heat from a small fire.

If you have time, check it out.

http://www.terminalia.org/mad/index.htm
Above photos and tour story by Michael Ayers
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: peg_688 on October 06, 2007, 11:14:20 PM
Thats interesting! Talk about something out of nothing :o Jeesh I'm sorry about bitching about the WIC bathroom idea now  ;D
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn-k on October 06, 2007, 11:23:36 PM
Probably makes you want to give up your shop full of tools and do it with sticks and rocks now, eh? :)
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: Freeholdfarm on November 09, 2007, 09:13:48 PM
I think the reason I enjoy this thread so much is that when my brothers and I were young, we loved to build 'forts'.  A lot of the Indian shelters resemble some of our 'forts' (though the Indian shelters were mostly better constructed!).  We loved camping, and I've always wished we could have lived in one of our 'forts' for a while!  I'd still like to do it, I guess!  

My favorites were 1. a driftwood 'log cabin' on the beach, just above the high tide line, 2. the top of a cedar stump -- the stump was six or eight feet across (Oregon Coast, old-growth timber), and we had to climb close to eight feet to reach the top of it.  There was huckleberry brush growing around the edge, and the center, the heartwood, had rotted out some, leaving a depression in the middle.  It was really a nice little shelter, needing only a roof.  And 3. another cedar stump, this one completely rotted out in the center, and with a couple of openings in the side that we used for doors.  We smoothed out the floor, and cleaned up the interior walls some -- again, it only needed a roof to make a nice little shelter!  And hardly any work involved!  

Kathleen, who never really grew up, LOL!
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn kangiser on November 09, 2007, 09:40:22 PM
Glad you enjoyed it Kathleen.  Note that this thread and a few others have lost a few pages at the beginning.  Seems to have been lost at the Internet host.  

John repaired one already and I assume he will get to the rest of them soon.  

If you see the main title of the thread say Re: (Subject) on page 1, then that one is missing some pages.  There were around 5 with problems.

Check back when fixed to see the rest. :)
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: John Raabe on November 10, 2007, 01:00:38 PM
Test #2:

I have a text file of an older version of this thread from 2006 which I could rebuild here if I could find the current file... weird >:(!

later that day.... I have found out that the message folder has perhaps 4000 messages in it now and the ftp limits are at 2000 files. That's why it is not showing this file.

Looking at the Yabb forums they are suggesting cleaning out old posts and perhaps placing them in an archive. They don't seem to think anyone should have so many files! >:(

I also have a request in to the ISP to see if they can increase the file limit.
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn kangiser on November 10, 2007, 03:13:12 PM
Sounds like Yabb needs to get their act together. :(
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: lodestar on November 12, 2007, 09:37:26 PM
I like this pic of a Mandan Earth Lodge circa 1910

(http://www.lewis-clark.org/media/images/in_earthlodge-mandan.jpg)

Artists rendition of interior in use...

(http://images.encarta.msn.com/xrefmedia/sharemed/targets/images/pho/000a5/000a5e47.jpg)

The skeleton:

(http://www.dennisrhollowayarchitect.com/JPG/HidatsaLodge.JPG)

entrance:

(http://www.spikehampson.com/images/mandan_earth_lodge.jpg)

A Mandan Village:

(http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~bowen/images/mandanvillage.jpg)

(http://www.sd4history.com/Unit2/images/Mandan%20Villages%20Big.jpg)
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: MountainDon on November 12, 2007, 09:46:30 PM
As in the Mandan's of the Dakota Territory??
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: lodestar on November 12, 2007, 10:03:55 PM
Quote
As in the Mandan's of the Dakota Territory??

What better place to go underground?

They are inspiring to me.
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn-k on November 13, 2007, 07:12:03 AM
Underground is the way to go. :)

I wasn't aware of the Mandans.

Their building is much the same as the Yosemite Indians roundhouse which was covered in earth in the old times.

A difference I see is that in Yosemite they have about a 4 foot dugout with drystacked rock walls then the rafter logs go up from there.

Thanks for posting that.
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: desdawg on December 11, 2007, 05:07:45 AM
I just ran across this site which shows the details for constructing a Navajo hogan:
http://waltonfeed.com/peoples/navajo/hogan.html
Title: Re: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn kangiser on December 11, 2007, 06:57:57 AM
Interesting and informative, desdawg.  Thanks

Note that this topic is missing the first 5 or so pages yet.  I think John may be able to restore them.
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: John Raabe on December 11, 2007, 10:52:06 AM
I read an interesting article in the Week on a paleogenetic study of the native populations of the new world. This is a new science made possible with recent gene mapping techniques.

It turns out that all the native inhabitants came from a line of Siberian hunters who walked onto the continent when the last ice age locked up so much water that there was a land bridge across the Bearing Sea between Siberia and Alaska. Apparently they never went back as the two genetic histories diverged at that point 12,000 years ago. This particular genetic marker was found in 27 different native American populations - North, South and Central - and the ancient Siberians. No other populations carry it.

The speculation is that they learned to use boats to go quickly down the coast and established native populations that then started to diverge into the tribes and civilizations of the these different areas.

Interestingly, my land, on Whidbey island in Washington's Puget Sound was under a mile of ice at the time. Wouldn't have been worth a stop right then. :D
Title: Re: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn kangiser on December 11, 2007, 10:55:40 AM
Interesting that an old fossil is still living there in a solar saltbox, even after all of that ice. hmm  rofl
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: John Raabe on December 11, 2007, 10:56:49 AM
Here is a link to the earlier starting thread of this topic on the old forum.- http://tinyurl.com/37qgpx. I have added this to the initial post on this thread.

Glenn: My bones have been feeling a bit fossil-like and it has been cold. I don't know how much help a solar heating strategy would be under a mile of ice. :-\
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: MountainDon on December 11, 2007, 02:41:40 PM
It turns out that all the native inhabitants came from a line of Siberian hunters who walked onto the continent when the last ice age locked up so much water that there was a land bridge across the Bearing Sea between Siberia and Alaska.
I read a book on the history of civilization's spread several month's ago where I learned the same thing. Darned if I can remember the name or author right now.  ???

Title: Re: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn kangiser on April 13, 2008, 08:45:18 PM
I just found a posting on the internet that agrees with Yosemite Indian.  That the Indians of Yosemite were in fact, renegade Piutes, and not the more easy going local Indians west of Yosemite..

http://www.yosemite.ca.us/library/yosemite_indians_are_outlaw_piutes.html

Quote
YOSEMITE INDIANS ARE OUTLAW PIUTES

Camp Barbour in 1851 produced the great frontiersman. Major James D. Savage, leader of the Mariposa Battalion, who with Andrew D. Firebaugh, chased outlaw Piute Indians back into Yosemite Valley, which led to its discovery. It is obvious they were not Miwoks and Diggers. They were peaceful, certainly not war-like enough to go out raiding Fort Barbour (later Fort Miller) built with soldiers armed with cap and ball muskets. Also, this is refuted by the testimony of veteran David Williamson to the Pony Express the late Williamson (born at Fort Churchill in the 1860s) whose father was an army officer, was told differently by Johnny Calico, son of Chief Winnemucca. Johnny as a kid in 1860, witnessed White Man’s route up the Truckee River from Lake Pyramid, in the so-called battle of Lake Pyramid which was not a “battle” but a very fast route, so fast as the soldiers could get away on horseback. His father told him that all unruly renegades in the tribe (The Piutes had no jails) had been exiled for generations over the mountains west of the big lake (which was Mono Lake). So there are your tough out-law Yosemite Indians that Savage and Firebaugh chased with their Mariposa Battalion in 1851.
Title: Re: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn kangiser on May 15, 2008, 08:47:50 AM
Our new member from Scotland, Al brought some great info to my attention.  Blackhouses in Scotland.

http://www.dualchas.com/heritage.asp

(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/blackhouselongsection.gif)

(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/blackhousesection.gif)
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn kangiser on May 31, 2008, 09:34:53 PM
Fort ancient, Ohio...before the American Indians we know of.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/18/SunWatchVillage.jpg/800px-SunWatchVillage.jpg)

The village reconstructed.

Quote
Fort Ancient
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    This article is about the Fort Ancient culture, for the National Historic Landmark in Warren County, Ohio, see Fort Ancient (Lebanon, Ohio)

Fort Ancient is a name for a Native American culture that flourished from 1000-1650 among a people who predominantly inhabited land along the Ohio River in areas of southern modern day Ohio, northern Kentucky and western West Virginia. The Fort Ancient culture was once thought to be an expansion of the Mississippian cultures, but is now accepted as an independently developed culture that was descended from the Hopewell culture (100 BCE-CE 500), who were also a Mound Builder people.

The name of the culture originates from the Fort Ancient, Ohio site. Fort Ancient itself is now thought to have been built by the Hopewell, then later occupied by the Fort Ancient culture. The fort is located on a hill above the Little Miami River, close to Lebanon, Ohio. Fort Ancient has earthen walls that are over 3 miles (5 km) long and up to 23 feet (7.5 m) high. The hilltop enclosure surrounds a plot of 100 acres (0.4 km˛). Despite its name, most archaeologists do not believe that Fort Ancient was used primarily as a fortress by either the Hopewell or the Fort Ancient -- rather, it was a ceremonial location.

Fort Ancient settlements lacked political centralization and elite social structures. Settlements were composed of circular and/or rectangular homes situated around an open plaza. The arrangement of buildings in Fort Ancient settlements is thought to have served as a sort of solar calendar, marking the positions of the solstices and other significant dates. Settlements were rarely permanent, usually being shifted to a new location after one or two generations when the resources surrounding the old village were exhausted.

The Fort Ancient people are noted for their earthen structures, forts, triangular arrow points and pentagonal flint knives. The Fort Ancient also created small burial mounds for the dead. The Fort Ancient people may have built the largest effigy mound in the United States, Serpent Mound.[citation needed]

The Fort Ancient were primarily a farming and hunting people. Their diet was composed mainly of the three sisters -- maize, squash, and beans -- supplemented with hunting and fishing in nearby forests and rivers.

Uncertainty surrounds the eventual fate of the Fort Ancient people. Most likely their society, like the Mississippian culture to the south, was severely disrupted by waves of epidemics from the very first Spanish explorers in the 16th century. There is a gap in the archaeological record between the most recent Fort Ancient sites and the oldest sites of the Shawnee, who occupied the area at the time of later European (French and English) explorers. However, it is generally accepted that similarities in material culture, art, mythology, and Shawnee oral history linking them to the Fort Ancients can be used to establish the shift of Fort Ancient society into historical Shawnee society

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Ancient

I learned of this from a free E-Book from Mobi-pocket -- works on your computer or PDA/Blackberry etc.

MONTREAL: GAZETTE PRINTING COMPANY. April, 1886.  MOUND-BUILDERS By Rev. William J. Smyth, M.A., B.Sc., Ph.D.

http://www.mobipocket.com/en/HomePage/default.asp?Language=EN

Title: Re: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn kangiser on August 06, 2008, 11:26:29 PM
I talked to a local Native American who works in the Park yesterday and he agreed that the Paiutes were there in Yosemite, but that they have traced families from 7 different tribes that were there including the Paiutes, so in fairness I have to give equal time to the other side of the story as I told him I would.
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: considerations on August 07, 2008, 09:39:18 AM
I'm not sure about copyright issues, so here is a link.

http://content.lib.washington.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/wastate&CISOPTR=102&CISOBOX=1&REC=7

John Raabe and PEG, you may get a kick out of this one.
Title: Re: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn kangiser on August 07, 2008, 10:55:37 AM
Cool old Board and Batten.
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: Wolfer on November 17, 2008, 12:54:42 PM
WoW this thread is everywhere, The area Most Spoken Of  (Inyo, Mono and Yosmite) Was My stompin grounds growing Up. There is alot of Culture in the area, and Petroglyphs are Everywhere. CHeck any Of the local Museums, Hawthorne and Fallon Both Have a great collection On the Native people. Dont forget The Lovelock museum.

There was a legend About red headed Giants In the Area Love lock has a great fallow up On this legend and Winnimucca actually has the Skull.




This area Has been Rampent In Mining  from the Late 1800's till pr34sent and WIth a Good vehical Ya can Get out and see ALot Of the Old Buildings still standing I have Multiple pics of the area and Many cabins Ill Post a few and If the Moderator wants to Pull them do to the Highjacking of a thread Ill add another thread as well.
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a350/NVWolfer/rabbitspringcabin.jpg)
Stockmens cabin from early 1900's the next photo is the interior. This cabin is well preserved do to the fact all the locals in the are use it as well as the current owner of the ranch who owns it
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a350/NVWolfer/insiderabbitspringscabin2.jpg)


(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a350/NVWolfer/ellsworthcabin.jpg)
this cabin is actually in a small community type setting(ghost town) it was last lived in the early 70's bust was constructed in the 20's  if I am not mistaken
Title: Re: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn kangiser on November 17, 2008, 05:58:23 PM
w* Wolfer.  That's pretty indigenous.

It's pretty hard to hijack a thread around here if you can get close to the subject or a tangent of it. :)

I haven't spent a lot of time in Nevada but have East of the Sierras many times as I used to keep a truck at Bridgeport and fly in - go to Bodie - hot springs - and many other places around there.  A very cool area.

I remember NW edge of Mono Lake west of the highway there was a pile of colored glass slag from gold refining and a small wrought Iron fence around a little cemetery in the brush above the road -- side roads.  Been there?
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: Wolfer on November 17, 2008, 11:58:54 PM
TY glen........ YA sure its a slag Pile? There is a couple Places the natives used to go into that area to get obsidian( natural glass) for Knives and Arrow heads...... As for Bodie I have been there Many many time as well as all the areas around there. I grew Up in Luning. A town Of 54 people doesnt offer Many things for a couple of young teens to DO so we took to the hills we started driving at 13 and HAve ridden Motorbikes 3 wheelers and quads My whole Life, not to mention the fact we had a Corral full of horses if needed.

I digress there are Many Places In the Mono lake are YA can Find Places where the Indians Stopped We have found Stone Blinds Used for hunting Birds On the Lake as well as Antalope and deer we have Located ares where they Camped and Knapped Knives and arrow heads Including a stash Of Spear points big as your hand.

Around the fallon Area there are a couple of Places as well. Grimes Point and Hidden cave Both Offer Petroglyphs Hidden Cave was a community shelter. Salt cave aslo offers Petroglyphs and was a part time Living area. Someone spoke Of a round House earlier, in fallon On the res SOmeone has a Massive roundhouse MAde of tires  Next time I get thru that area Ill see if i can grab a Picture to Post Its subterrian for the most part and Is still Used in gatherings today

Stone Cabin and Dugout located In central nevada
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a350/NVWolfer/thingsfoundinthedesert.jpg)
Title: Re: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn kangiser on November 18, 2008, 07:30:07 AM
Very Cool pix.  The stone cabin is great.  Were the rock faces smooth on the inside also?  Could you tell any thing about the construction of the walls?

So now tires are an indigenous building material.  That is an interesting development with newer natural resources.

Yes - I'm pretty sure about the slag pile as it is colored melted glass.  I have been to the obsidian areas around the mono craters.  Hauled a few pieces of it and featherstone back in my airplane.  There was a silver mine above Lee Vining at about the 10000 foot elevation also.  I had old film pix of it from flying around it.  Never find them now.
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: Wolfer on November 18, 2008, 01:47:15 PM
They are just as they appear on the outside.  Glen ill start another thread on Mining /slash homestead cabins  I really Jacked this thread which wasnt my intention
Title: Re: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn kangiser on November 18, 2008, 05:39:33 PM
No problem.  Sounds great.
Title: Re: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn kangiser on December 14, 2008, 09:07:27 AM
1400 BC Turkey

http://www.rincondelmisterio.com/derinkuyu-la-misteriosa-ciudad-subterranea-de-turquia/en/

(http://www.rincondelmisterio.com/wp-content/uploads/derinkuyu1.jpg)
Title: Re: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn kangiser on December 25, 2008, 09:40:06 AM
I came across a cool website from Afghanistan with a pictorial called Life in Adobe Houses.

No commentary - just pix - I had to view it in IE as it didn't work in Firefox.

http://quqnoos.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2253&Itemid=53&lang=english

(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/afghanadobe1.jpg)


45 pix I think.
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/afghanadobe2.jpg)
Title: Re: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn kangiser on October 15, 2009, 12:29:46 AM
Found the first part in the Wayback Machine.

http://web.archive.org/web/20070704011909/www.countryplans.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1135060015
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn kangiser on March 25, 2010, 08:57:44 PM
Long time - no new info here...

I told Annie, our international student guest from Taiwan that we enjoyed learning of indigenous housing information from other countries.  She said she was going to send me some information and even though she was busy getting caught up on her studies after her visit here, she kept her word and sent a link to Fujian indigenous architecture.

I touched on this subject a bit 4 years ago when John, a professor in Xiamen told me of it.

Annie knew another name for this architecture, Tulou, and sent me a link to more information.

Tianluokeng Tulou cluster

(http://i641.photobucket.com/albums/uu136/vinhbinh2009/CHINA-Fujian%20Tulou/fujian-tulou.jpg)

As I was studying up on the subject a bit I found that these earthen homes worked as a home for family clans but also as a fortress against groups of armed bandits -sometimes up to 10000 of them and even an army cannon firing 19 rounds against the wall but only making a small dent.

(http://i641.photobucket.com/albums/uu136/vinhbinh2009/CHINA-Fujian%20Tulou/FujianTulou2.jpg)

The lower walls may be of rammed earth with stone, lime, sand depending on the local flood level then go to earth above.  There were no windows in the low levels as they were storage, foundation and protection - up to over 6 feet thick tapering to 3 feet thick at the top..

They were even built to a CODE - how about that..... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yingzao_Fashi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yingzao_Fashi)  written around 1065 AD.  That makes ours a newcomer.... [waiting]

The upper windows could be used for shooting from and in some cases there were special corridors for getting to defense positions quickly.


No concrete reinforcement here.  Earth, stone, bamboo, sticky rice.  Unconventional by our standards but some have stood for over a thousand years.


How about a well in your own kitchen -

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b4/Yuchanglou_inhouse_water_well.JPG/800px-Yuchanglou_inhouse_water_well.JPG)





More info including enough instructions to build your own I think.... at the link Annie sent me

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fujian_Tulou
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: UK4X4 on July 12, 2010, 05:32:26 AM
Here's a few

dung earth and twigged frame house- estado Sucre Venezuela, the wifes parents live next door, three generations lived there that we know about - putting it around 200 years old, latter added concrete repairs- tin roof and even a light bulb

(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g165/POshaughnessy/Venezuela%202008/139-1.jpg)
(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g165/POshaughnessy/Venezuela%202008/157-1.jpg)

The mother in law, my daughter and the new extension, earth quake area so the woods tied together to allow for movement  ::)
(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g165/POshaughnessy/Venezuela%202008/022-1.jpg)
Some nice hardwood chainsawed planking, and yep we just slaughtered him for dinner
(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g165/POshaughnessy/Venezuela%202008/134.jpg)

Gran Sabana Pemon indian travel hut- they are set out along all the major trails as they walk from village to village, stop sling your hammock and your good for the night
(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g165/POshaughnessy/Venezuela/DSC_0172.jpg)
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: John Raabe on July 12, 2010, 07:25:02 AM
Very interesting photos UK4X4.

The stilted doggy platform tent is a more modern invention I presume. :D
Title: Re: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn kangiser on July 12, 2010, 08:43:06 PM
Very Cool, UK4X4... Thanks for posting this.  It reminds me of Mexico.
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: Chuck Adze on October 06, 2010, 12:59:20 PM
Hi, and blessings.
This is an interesting thread.

My wife has Maliseet, and brother in law is Passamaquoddy.
I also have family who are Penobscot (neice / husband).

This week I saw in the Sept. Issue of Bangor Metro Magazine a tradtional Hogan constructed by a Dana from Penobscot Nation (wish I could have got the photo off line).Birch bark constructed, using spruce root and sap.

Also I have some photos of old Maine log cabins if anyone is interested.
Title: Re: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn kangiser on October 06, 2010, 09:12:35 PM
Please post them, Chuck.

This has been one of my favorite threads, although I haven't done a lot with it lately.
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: Chuck Adze on October 07, 2010, 02:36:34 AM
Yeah...this is a great thread.
In my travels I sometimes see many old buildings.

I love construction techniques and materials of all kinds.
I think the Hogan was put into the museum, I will see if I can get a photo online somewhere.

Some of the older cabins used oakum between the logs and were covered with saplings or lathes.
A friend has fishing camps on one of the lakes, and he still rents out the original cedar cabin from the mid 1800's.
Title: Re: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn kangiser on October 07, 2010, 09:38:36 AM
You are probably like me... walking around looking up at the ceiling - trusses etc to see how it was built.
Title: Re: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: Chuck Adze on October 07, 2010, 10:34:06 AM
You are probably like me... walking around looking up at the ceiling - trusses etc to see how it was built.

Yeah...big time..LOL.
Doesn't matter if its iron work or wood, I love it all.
I am a big time scrounger too (drives my wife crazy).
We were "green" before green was the in thing (thats all we could afford).
I don't care if it is a bridge or a garden shed.
I love good design, and how things are put together.


Title: Re: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn kangiser on October 07, 2010, 08:23:56 PM
There is a resort near here - trusses rough sawn and hand built before codes were installed here in the seventies.  No problems - I study them every time I go there.

I also study all of the steel roofs or construction at least in the back of my head as my main work is steel construction - I am a steel erector but do anything to keep going.

I have a couple acres of scrounge - some since the seventies... and remarkably I often get and use it - mostly left over steel from jobs, but well drilling stuff and equipment as well as antiques too.

That is why I like this thread - I like historic stuff.



Title: Re: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: Chuck Adze on October 08, 2010, 02:32:31 AM
There is a resort near here - trusses rough sawn and hand built before codes were installed here in the seventies.  No problems - I study them every time I go there.

I also study all of the steel roofs or construction at least in the back of my head as my main work is steel construction - I am a steel erector but do anything to keep going.

I have a couple acres of scrounge - some since the seventies... and remarkably I often get and use it - mostly left over steel from jobs, but well drilling stuff and equipment as well as antiques too.

That is why I like this thread - I like historic stuff.





I love steel too.
Everytime I go into Old Navy I am looking at the truss work, and tubular ducts, lndustrial lighting etc..
I am forever picking up pieces of steel.
I usually use it for something.

I love the transistional period of timber and iron work (combining the two).

I originally wanted to do a more industrial steel trussed house, but I could not sell the wife on it.
Similar to some of LamiDesigns work (Greg Larverda), steel case house etc..

They just took down an older small steel girder bridge down in my area about a year ago.
They just cut it up in small pieces and hauled it for scrap.

I  got some old snow plow blades (5/8" thick about 5" wide by 13' long), figured I could use those in beam reinforcement in places if I need too.
I am forever seeing angle iro people throw out at the dump etc.
I got some great strap steel (3/16" thick), down the dump I figured I could incorporate into my wood trusses (sort of like craftsman style).

DIY network just had a great show featruing a man who took apart an old cemet plant (steel truss work) and reassembled it into hi house.
Excellent!
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: Chuck Adze on October 08, 2010, 02:42:04 AM
I also love the look of the rustic / rusted metal roofing (painted finish of course), or Reinke roof shakes.
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: Chuck Adze on October 08, 2010, 04:09:30 AM
Check out this one.....I really liked it, my wife says it looks like a camp / fort the kids used to build.
At any rate, I decided not to buy it (I would have to use some of my savings)  8)

http://www.trilogybuilds.com/calecho/
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: Chuck Adze on October 08, 2010, 04:24:11 AM
Here is a real old cabin.
Probably white cedar.

(http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k593/Chuckadze/Old%20log%20cabins/Picture.jpg)

Here is another one;

(http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k593/Chuckadze/Old%20log%20cabins/Picture040.jpg)
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: John Raabe on October 08, 2010, 07:11:50 AM
That's interesting...

Usually the foundation under the porch is less substantial than the one under the house and the porch sinks away from the house.

In this case the porch is sitting high and the house is the one that has settled.
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: Chuck Adze on October 08, 2010, 07:42:21 AM
Its, probably just built on flat rock / piers.
Some of the other cabins I have seen (in the middle of the woods), were just dry stacked stones / crawl spaces.
Title: Re: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn kangiser on October 08, 2010, 10:11:33 AM
I also love the look of the rustic / rusted metal roofing (painted finish of course), or Reinke roof shakes.

A couple of my projects using rusted metal - likely will clear coat it in the house.

http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=1166.msg28284#msg28284

http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.msg100949#msg100949
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: Chuck Adze on October 09, 2010, 11:27:06 AM
Awesome and  interesting.
Rammed earth, pier slab.
Tools too! (jealous of the sawmill).
Title: Re: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn kangiser on October 09, 2010, 03:04:10 PM
Gotta have the toys, Chuck.  :)
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: riverbrooke on October 13, 2010, 11:05:32 AM
Check out this one.....I really liked it, my wife says it looks like a camp / fort the kids used to build.
At any rate, I decided not to buy it (I would have to use some of my savings)  8)

http://www.trilogybuilds.com/calecho/

That looks odd but I like it. It is very cartoonish and fort like. I thought it was 3d rendered at first.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
No more mortgage (http://money.cnn.com/2010/06/28/news/economy/mortgage_lending_rules/index.htm) !
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: Don_P on October 15, 2010, 08:13:24 PM
Looking at some of the cast iron fittings on old heavy timber work and the loads involved, those were some sharp folks. With scraps of steel and some creativity you can make nice fittings, if allowed. I've made large joist hangers for heavy timber out of angle iron welded into pockets that put Simpson to shame, out of scrap.

John, Look at the settled cabin again with another possibility in mind. The front porch roof is supported on vertical poles, that don't shrink lengthwise. The cabin was built from horizontal poles that do shrink in thickness, that wall height lowered over time. Follow the roofline to the window posts, see the slight rise? Maybe not all of it but I've seen the effect with no foundation movement, a chimney can do the same thing to the roof.

This is an interesting link I saw on another forum;
http://www.ncptt.nps.gov/bousillage/
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: Chuck Adze on October 18, 2010, 02:32:03 AM
I am sure most of you have checked out Tredgolds scantlings before....he goes into some details on steel / iron and timber fasteners.

http://chestofbooks.com/home-improvement/woodworking/Carpentry-Principles/index.html
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: Chuck Adze on October 18, 2010, 03:52:52 AM
Looking at some of the cast iron fittings on old heavy timber work and the loads involved, those were some sharp folks. With scraps of steel and some creativity you can make nice fittings, if allowed. I've made large joist hangers for heavy timber out of angle iron welded into pockets that put Simpson to shame, out of scrap.

John, Look at the settled cabin again with another possibility in mind. The front porch roof is supported on vertical poles, that don't shrink lengthwise. The cabin was built from horizontal poles that do shrink in thickness, that wall height lowered over time. Follow the roofline to the window posts, see the slight rise? Maybe not all of it but I've seen the effect with no foundation movement, a chimney can do the same thing to the roof.

This is an interesting link I saw on another forum;
http://www.ncptt.nps.gov/bousillage/

That is a very interesting link.
Sort of like the old wattle and dawb.
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn kangiser on December 18, 2010, 06:15:44 PM
Haven't added to this thread for a bit so looks like now is a good time.

As most of you know, we recently had Dr. Myo Aung Kyaw from Myanmar stay with us for 3 days as well as some other great visitors.  Myo loves to take pictures and while I am not sure if he considers himself to be a professional, I sure see professional quality there.  He has generously given me permission to use some of his photos from Myanmar, so I thought I would pick out some of the indigenous housing and building related pics he left me to add to this thread.  

The following photos are from an album he has titled "Farmer's Life in Myanmar."  Myanmar was previously known as Burma.

(http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy62/the_troglodyte/Myanmargraneryandotherbldgs.jpg)


another shot... from what I have seen in Myo's other pix, the building with the external supports is a granary... I would assume for rice storage.

(http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy62/the_troglodyte/Myanmargraneryandotherbldgsjpg2.jpg)


and a cow shelter.

(http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy62/the_troglodyte/Myanmargraneryandotherbldgsjpg3.jpg)


Looking through the pix, there are only a couple more that could fit into this category.  There are lots of other interesting pix though.  I could start another thread on it if there is interest in seeing more of Myo's pix.
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: MountainDon on January 24, 2011, 05:34:29 PM
Kandovan, Iran (northern Iran)

(http://heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/images/kandovan/FlickrBasheem.jpg)

Website:  Troglodytic Village (http://heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/urmia/kandovan.htm)

Lots of pictures.
Title: Re: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn kangiser on January 25, 2011, 06:23:37 PM
Now that is way cool... :)
Title: Re: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn kangiser on January 25, 2011, 06:51:29 PM
Found a good video on it.

Kandovan Village in Iran, Home Carved into Rocks, Tourism.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zrt7xjIAPs&feature=related
Title: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: MountainDon on January 25, 2011, 07:41:57 PM
We have formations like that here in NM.

We call them tent rocks.

But nobody lives in them.

Cool place to hike through though.
Title: Re: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn kangiser on January 25, 2011, 08:22:12 PM
All of the sudden I am getting the urge to dig into my mountain........ [waiting]
Title: Re: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: Ernest T. Bass on January 25, 2011, 08:27:52 PM
So that is volcanic rock? I imagine it's got a decent r-value, if so. Seems it would be softer and easier to dig out than regular old rock, too. We need a couple of those.. :)
Title: Re: Re: Indigenous Housing
Post by: glenn kangiser on January 25, 2011, 08:57:14 PM
Naturally cemented volcanic ash I guess.  It said 10 months for four guys to hand dig a room in the motel I think.

Here is a blog that says it is pretty soft.

http://www.coolpicturegallery.net/2010/01/irans-human-termite-colony.html