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General => Owner-Builder Projects => Topic started by: considerations on May 06, 2008, 07:25:20 PM

Title: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on May 06, 2008, 07:25:20 PM
I'm a beginner, a real beginner.  The foundation and floor decking is coming this Friday, and I'm working on the site.   I'm still dancing around with floor plans, convinced that there is flexibility even in small cabins.   I do not want to paint my self into a corner, figuratively or literally.

Here is a link if anyone has the time or inclination...I'd appreciate any feedback about practicality, etc.

https://s282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/?albumview=slideshow

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on May 06, 2008, 09:54:18 PM
Looks like you have made it your own.  I think it shows great creativity.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on May 06, 2008, 10:05:50 PM
It is the most evolved 14 x 24 Little House I've ever laid eyes on. You've got some hours into that.

Is that upper floor done with a 2 ft. or higher kneewall? I'm wondering about the headroom by the bed?  ???  Not too many people get a stairway into a 14x24. How's that work for the headroom; I guess that depends on the sidewall height?  It's not real clear, but is that the bathroom across the rear of the main floor?

The images from your architecture program are so nice I hope you don't mind me posting a couple of images from the slideshow.

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/My14x24Option02d.jpg)

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/My14x24Option02a.jpg)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on May 06, 2008, 11:36:51 PM
Thanks, MountainDon, I am just using the Broderbund program, version 3, one of two mentioned on this site.  I really had to fight for a stairway.  I modeled it off of the new park model trailers that are so popular these days, so it is only 27" wide. I started with 36", and scaled it down.  I know its not code, but neither is a residence under 400sqft in this county. The full size stairway is the "escape hatch" in the back. 

It is a 2 foot "knee wall".  I'm planning on 10' studs, and 7' ceilings downstairs...with a foot or so for the ceiling joists, that gets me a 2' knee wall, or so.  I had to use the furniture in the "library", so the bed is a tight fit, but I felt to be realistic, I had to see if any furnishings would fit. 

This summer, I'm just concentrating on the shell.  The rainy season starts pretty much Oct 1, so the deck and carport are subordinate to weather proofing the cabin. 

I'm pretty sure the stairs have headroom, but my knowledge, or the limitations of the program have not let me affirm that.   If you know how, I'd love to confirm it.

I'm pretty sure I can get the foundation and floor deck up before finalizing, but before the framing starts, I better know what the floor plan is.




Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Willy on May 06, 2008, 11:44:38 PM
One thing to remember in these small cabins and narrow stairs. Furnishings may not be able to get moved up them. Watch what you plan to have in the loft area you may need to put it in first before you close up the walls. Another thing to keep in mind is sheet rock can you get full sheets into the rooms with out having to cut them up into chunks. This also means long boards, doors ect for trim. Mark
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on May 07, 2008, 12:21:32 AM
Hi Willy, thanks for the reminders, I'll take them to heart.

There is a full sized door and stair out the back of the loft, which I would do even if I only end up with a sort of "ship's ladder" inside.  That may help with some larger items. 

As far as sheetrock, I would rather completely avoid it if at all possible.  I'm "going where I've never gone before" with plumbing. 

My plan is to use some sort of wood, preferably planking (or at least the "look" of it).  There is a lovely and very rustic cabin being documented on this site that is doing the same, and I like it.  I "planked" my office.

I have a lot to learn and my ears are wide open.

MountainDon:  I dropped a couple "overhead" views of that same plan into Photobucket again.  Yes, the bathroom is the whole back of the cabin.  I crammed a "stacker W/D" in there, not because I necessarily want one, but the program does not have a combo w/d in the library. 

That hole in the corner of the floor in the loft is directly above the laundry basket that will be sitting on top of that washer, what ever model it turns out to be.  I have a full size washer and dryer in the power plant shed now, but its running cold water only , and requires the big gen.  When the cabin is built, I don't want to be schlepping clean laundry that far, so I hope to convert over to a more energy efficient and "in house" arrangement.

I have another plan, if this one is not feasible.

I've already garnered a great deal from this forum, both your posts in other threads have been most helpful.

I appreciate the feedback.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: ScottA on May 07, 2008, 07:44:25 AM
Nice plan. Very creative design and it's small like mine. We need lots of pics when you get rolling.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: CREATIVE1 on May 07, 2008, 08:02:39 AM
This is a nice house.  I especially like the configuration of the "open to above" areas.  The upstairs bedroom is way beyond basic.

A question: where are you located on the Olympic Peninsula?  We're building there too, but can only build a 200 square foot building without a permit.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on May 07, 2008, 10:01:23 AM
I'm in Clallam county, on the north coast, about halfway between Port Angeles and Neah Bay.

I'm stretching credulity with the codes, but I'm not alone in that out here.

"21.01.045 Exemptions.

Section 105.2 of the International Building Code (IBC) as published by the International Code Council regarding exemptions from permit requirements shall be amended to read as follows:

1. One-story detached accessory buildings used as tool and storage sheds, playhouses, and similar uses and classified as U Occupancies, provided that such buildings are for private use only and are accessory to single family dwellings and provided the floor area does not exceed 400 square feet. Eaves may project not more than 24 inches beyond the wall line.

.......but then:

"Unless otherwise exempted, separate plumbing, electrical, and mechanical permits will be required for the above exempted items."

So, I'm pushing it. There is no single family dwelling for the cabin to be "accessory to". 

I've been out here for a while in a 5th wheel.  But the walls are starting to close in on me. Enough already.

Putting the "paid for" land up as collateral on a mortgage has seemed too big a gamble, turns out I've been at least somewhat vindicated with the mortgage market being exposed as such a racket.

There is a grey water drainfield, (the county seems ok with that, its the blackwater that they focus on).  And, for good or bad, a portajohn, until I acquire an composting toilet, with the required overflow tank, which the portajohn folk supply and service. 

Down the road, I'll focus on the construction of a permitted septic system, and maybe the cart is before the horse, but the restricted space I live in has changed my priorities.

Since getting here, I have made a large clearing, a moderately decent driveway, planted a small orchard, established the vegatable garden, cleared and fenced pasture for the horses, and finally decided where to site the cabin....which is not where the house will be...someday.

Didn't exactly make a quick decision on that, but the fortunate outcome of it was that I found this web site and the plans, and had a chance to learn a little about building things by putting up the laundryroom/power plant shed and the office. 

I certainly learned a lot about what not to do.  I work from home, which is extremely fortunate, and has given me a chance to really get to know the place, where the sun is during different times of the year, etc.



Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: eric on May 07, 2008, 10:57:15 AM
That's a really neat looking plan. I've always liked small staircases. They feel so sneaky.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on May 09, 2008, 08:44:52 PM
Lessons learned

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/DumpedErrrUnloaded.jpg)

The lumber truck offloads aft, not tharwtships (yagh)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on May 09, 2008, 08:46:05 PM
Take a deep breath and ...

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/Organizing.jpg)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on May 09, 2008, 08:47:03 PM
Count the little pieces
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/Goodies.jpg)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on May 09, 2008, 08:47:57 PM
Whew!

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/Restacked.jpg)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on May 09, 2008, 08:49:49 PM
Time for a break

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/TidiedUp.jpg)

Enough
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on May 09, 2008, 09:19:10 PM
considerations and to think you are just getting started.  But the journey is half the fun.  Before long you can say "I did it".
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on May 09, 2008, 09:19:25 PM
Yup -- that's a roll off lumber truck.  Untie the load, pop the clutch, get away from the crash and drive away.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on May 09, 2008, 11:22:58 PM
One hot shower and an Aleve, and I'm fine.  Next time, however, I'll be set up for an aft drop.  I'd like to move the rest of the of building materials only twice, from the pile to the saw to the cabin.   d*   They only broke one piece, snapped it like a twig.  I love the smell of cut fir. 

Today was a red letter day, the first Douglas Fir squirrel I've ever heard spent the better part of an hour giving me thunder for working near his luncheon tree and the nesting eagles are back.   

The adventure continues.....


Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on May 10, 2008, 06:58:39 AM
Yep been there done that.  I had a load of subfloor and roof sheeting delivered in this fashion.  It was dropped on the edge of the bank near the basement. When it rolled off the truck the bands broke and I had 15 sheeting slidding down the hill to the drive.  No fun carring them back to the stack at the top of the grade.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: ScottA on May 10, 2008, 11:19:26 AM
Oh fun! You got wood. You have help or working alone?.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on May 10, 2008, 12:47:01 PM
Quote from: Redoverfarm on May 10, 2008, 06:58:39 AM
Yep been there done that.  I had a load of subfloor and roof sheeting delivered in this fashion.  It was dropped on the edge of the bank near the basement. When it rolled off the truck the bands broke and I had 15 sheeting slidding down the hill to the drive.  No fun carring them back to the stack at the top of the grade.

Just a minute... let me guess...the driver didn't offer to help.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on May 10, 2008, 01:36:53 PM
No in fact it was a joint venture. Remember we are in WV.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on May 10, 2008, 10:05:48 PM
For now, I'll work alone. 

I do not flatter myself to think that the rafter beam is going to get one end magically levitated while I support the other end.  Nor am I screamingly wild about some of the high places without at least having someone on the ground to keep an eye on things (me).

I have built a few things, the power shed, the office. I reroofed my folk's barn and built a tool shed and a loafing shed for the critters.  None of them rise to the size or level of complexity of this undertaking.

I've learned to think very carefully about getting things done.  What I cannot do with muscle can sometimes be accomplished with brains....but if it slows me down too much I'll be looking for help.

For now, and likely for the bulk of the project, its a one woman show. 



Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Willy on May 10, 2008, 10:25:11 PM
Quote from: glenn kangiser on May 10, 2008, 12:47:01 PM
Quote from: Redoverfarm on May 10, 2008, 06:58:39 AM
Yep been there done that.  I had a load of subfloor and roof sheeting delivered in this fashion.  It was dropped on the edge of the bank near the basement. When it rolled off the truck the bands broke and I had 15 sheeting slidding down the hill to the drive.  No fun carring them back to the stack at the top of the grade.

Just a minute... let me guess...the driver didn't offer to help.
When I took my Rhino Decking up along with all the deck framing stuff, posts, concrete sacks ect I lost the whole load out of the back of my pick up! That Rhino stuff is like greased wood and slid right out even with 800 lbs of concrete on it next to the cab!! I was lucky it happen as I was pulling away from a light at the intersection. 3 guys jumped out of there trucks and helped me put it all in the truck before the cops showed up and fined me for a unsafe load. I defently used straps to hold it in the bed. I broke the hangers on my tailgate also when the load landed on it as it droped off the box. Not one board broke nor did a sack of ready mix bust open on the road. I was lucky cause after that light I would be doing 60 MPH down a highway pulling steep hills! Mark
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on May 24, 2008, 05:59:01 PM

I dug 14 holes 30" deep and 24" square, filled them with 5/8"- and leveled the top of the gravel

Set 16" diameter concrete reinforced blocks on the gravel and then 12" pyramid shaped piers on top

Then put u-shaped brackets for 4x4" PT posts with threaded rods and washers and nuts in the holes. 

Then put 4 x 4" pt post in the brackets. 

Ok I have read this forum a lot, and read the read me first, and the plans, but don't see a clear answer to the following":

Question 1 = Do you drill holes in the 4" s 4" PT posts to match the holes in the brackets and bolt through?

If so, is that enough fastening?  Or are the other little holes in the brackets for nails, as well - or instead?

Question 2 - are the usual stamped sheet metal brackets for connecting 4 x 4's sufficient for connecting the top of the posts to the beams, or should they be as hefty as the ones at the bottom of the posts?  Do these get bolted as well ( I plan to set the beams on top of the posts, not try to bolt them to the sides of the beams.)

Question 3 - I don't know where the log trucks around here go with all those trees, but most of the local lumber comes from Canada. So, faced with a 14 day wait, and the obvious weight of 24' PT 4 x 8's, I got 4 12's instead of 2 24's for the beams.

That's why there are 14 piers, one for dead center under the butted up ends of the 12' 4 x 8's 

Is there any thing I need to do to secure those butted up ends?   The bolt hole in the bracket (it is centered just like the butted ends) won't connect them, can I just nail through the little holes in the bracket?  does it matter?

The other end of the foundation beams are just hanging out there, not connected to anything. 
If these questions have been answered before, I apologize for the repetition, guess I'm this forum's latest field test.

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on May 24, 2008, 07:09:03 PM
Quote from: considerations on May 24, 2008, 05:59:01 PM



Question 1 = Do you drill holes in the 4" s 4" PT posts to match the holes in the brackets and bolt through?

  You could but it's not generally required.

If so, is that enough fastening?  Or are the other little holes in the brackets for nails, as well - or instead?

10 penny Galv. Teco nails , fill all the small holes.

Question 2 - are the usual stamped sheet metal brackets for connecting 4 x 4's sufficient for connecting the top of the posts to the beams, or should they be as hefty as the ones at the bottom of the posts?  Do these get bolted as well ( I plan to set the beams on top of the posts, not try to bolt them to the sides of the beams.)

  AC44Z 

(http://www.strongtie.com/graphics/products/large/053c-2008.gif)

Question 3 - I don't know where the log trucks around here go with all those trees, but most of the local lumber comes from Canada. So, faced with a 14 day wait, and the obvious weight of 24' PT 4 x 8's, I got 4 12's instead of 2 24's for the beams.

That's why there are 14 piers, one for dead center under the butted up ends of the 12' 4 x 8's 

Is there any thing I need to do to secure those butted up ends?   The bolt hole in the bracket (it is centered just like the butted ends) won't connect them, can I just nail through the little holes in the bracket?  does it matter?


  The AC44Z will work at the bottom , you could add a flat gussett / strap  plates like these ST22Z

(http://www.strongtie.com/graphics/products/large/148f-2008_xtra-lg.gif)



The other end of the foundation beams are just hanging out there, not connected to anything. 
If these questions have been answered before, I apologize for the repetition, guess I'm this forum's latest field test.



Great post all the info was clear and broken out , VERY NICELY DONE!   [cool]


The "Z" stands for ZMAX required for the new ACQ PT lumber some folks use a barrier between the metal and the wood such as Grace Vycor. 

G/L PEG
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on May 24, 2008, 07:12:28 PM
Glad you showed up for that, Oh great Master Craftsman.  :)

It was more than chainsaw and sledge hammer stuff. d*
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on May 24, 2008, 07:48:05 PM
Quote from: PEG688 on May 24, 2008, 07:09:03 PM
Quote from: considerations on May 24, 2008, 05:59:01 PM

You'all are very patient, and I appreciate you taking the time....just a couple more answers would be great.

Question 1 = Do you drill holes in the 4" s 4" PT posts to match the holes in the brackets and bolt through?

  You could but it's not generally required.

If so, is that enough fastening?  Or are the other little holes in the brackets for nails, as well - or instead?

10 penny Galv. Teco nails , fill all the small holes.

Question 2 - are the usual stamped sheet metal brackets for connecting 4 x 4's sufficient for connecting the top of the posts to the beams, or should they be as hefty as the ones at the bottom of the posts?  Do these get bolted as well ( I plan to set the beams on top of the posts, not try to bolt them to the sides of the beams.)

  AC44Z 

(http://www.strongtie.com/graphics/products/large/053c-2008.gif)

would this be for ALL the post tops, not just the centers?

Question 3 - I don't know where the log trucks around here go with all those trees, but most of the local lumber comes from Canada. So, faced with a 14 day wait, and the obvious weight of 24' PT 4 x 8's, I got 4 12's instead of 2 24's for the beams.

That's why there are 14 piers, one for dead center under the butted up ends of the 12' 4 x 8's 

Is there any thing I need to do to secure those butted up ends?   The bolt hole in the bracket (it is centered just like the butted ends) won't connect them, can I just nail through the little holes in the bracket?  does it matter?


  The AC44Z will work at the bottom , you could add a flat gussett / strap  plates like these ST22Z

At the bottom of the beam?

(http://www.strongtie.com/graphics/products/large/148f-2008_xtra-lg.gif)

Sorry about this, but where would the straps go?
On the sides of the 4 x 8's to hold them together?
Up one side of the post, over the top of the beam and down the other side?



The other end of the foundation beams are just hanging out there, not connected to anything. 
If these questions have been answered before, I apologize for the repetition, guess I'm this forum's latest field test.



Great post all the info was clear and broken out , VERY NICELY DONE!   [cool]


The "Z" stands for ZMAX required for the new ACQ PT lumber some folks use a barrier between the metal and the wood such as Grace Vycor. 

Why?

G/L PEG
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on May 24, 2008, 07:59:10 PM
 Yes , all post top one each side. They sell another that more of a PITA to use , you set it on the post and the beam drops into it so it's two sided sort of . More trouble than they are worth.


The straps would go only on your beam splice , one each side about 1" down from the top edge , so the "long way" to hold the beams to each other. The strap in the photo is just shown vertical , it can be used either way , or bent up and over for a DIFFERNT application.


  There's much debate on the new ACQ lumber corroding even the ZMAX stuff, copper / dissimilar metals type corrosion. The barrier separates the two metals. The one being in the wood. The copper is IN the wood the PT-ment.

  Or use Stainless steel hardware , we don't do it , If it was my business I think I would , I'd just add it to the cost of the job, as S/S is more $$$.       

 

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on May 25, 2008, 01:32:38 AM
Thanks for your patient replies.  I'll follow up on them.  I guess we can be comforted by knowing that no moss will grow on the new PT lumber.   :P

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/20080524001.jpg) 

Pushing and rolling that concrete made for an interesting day.  The weather was beautiful. I noticed some folk on this forum saw snow and winter like weather. 

Our summers are short, but glorious for the brief time they visit.  This was one of those days.  Stareted with an eagle lumbering overhead, then the Canadian geese in formation, strawberries and newly transplanted iris blooming, a tiny lilac making its first blossoms....wow, except for the aching muscles in places I will not mention, it doesn't get much better than this.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on May 25, 2008, 01:00:26 PM
Looks good so far. :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on May 30, 2008, 10:14:22 PM
An hour here, an hour there.

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/20080530001.jpg)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on May 30, 2008, 10:22:04 PM
Looks good to me.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Willy on May 31, 2008, 12:19:08 AM
Looks great so far. If it was me doing it I would nail a X of wood on each pier from side to side to keep the posts straite and solid. If you nailed a board at the bottom near the pier block and went accross to the other post and nailed it just below the beam and on the other side of the post reverse it this will keep them from moving. Do this to all the posts it will keep them straite and make putting the floor joists up much easier with out the beams moving around. This would be done between the beams. The beams will hold the posts straite from end to end. Mark
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on May 31, 2008, 08:23:59 AM
Thanks Willy, I'm planning on it. 

I saw a similar conversation about cross bracing elsewhere on these forums, and have the lumber for it.  When I put the first beam up, I found that even though the piers were level, some were not in exactly the right place, and had to do some "scooting" to get the posts directly under the beam, so they would stand exactly vertical. 

I think that getting the one beam on made me get those piers in the proper place, and that now I can use those piers as "points of reference" to fine tune the placement of the opposite piers.

That should assure that a cross brace will squarely match up to a post under the other beam.

This is my first "house", and I'm really banking on forum members looking at the pictures and sharing their experience to help me get this done safe and correctly.  For me, the real value of purchasing the plans lies in the forum support.

I was also planning on a couple of "X's" on the long sides as well. 


Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on May 31, 2008, 08:53:54 AM
Speaking of getting support from the forum, here is one thing I haven't yet figured out.  I have "lofty" aspirations about a fancy loft plan, but am not sure how to execute it.  I think I've committed myself to an 8' ceiling on the main floor, meaning I'm planning on 12' studwalls.  I want to have head room for the stairs, and am planning on collar ties in the loft ceiling to keep things sturdy, as well as keeping the loft headroom below what is considered "living space". 

The issue I haven't worked out is how the main floor ceiling joists "work around" the open spaces in the ceiling.

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/My14x24Option02g.jpg)

There is, at least in the stairwell, a bit of a potential conflict between running the ceiling joists all the way across the width of the cabin, and still being able to get up the stairs. 

Any ideas about how to accomplish this would be welcomed.  The dimensions of the "open below" spaces are not chiseled in granite, they can be changed to accomodate realities, like using the joists for support.  I do, however need room for that bed where it is.  Also, the joists can run right through the open space that does not have the stair well in it.  In the stair well opening, I can bring a support post up along the top corner of the stair that is not attached to the wall, but I'm not sure about how to execute the rest of it.

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on May 31, 2008, 09:57:16 AM
Quote from: considerations on May 31, 2008, 08:53:54 AM

The issue I haven't worked out is how the main floor ceiling joists "work around" the open spaces in the ceiling.

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/My14x24Option02g.jpg)




You double up the joists , or add a doubled up joist , under that closet wall and the wall by where you show that trunk at the foot of the bed.

Those double joist run the full width of the building.

At the "head" / top of the stairs you hang a doubled up "stairwell header" between those two doubled up full width joist , use double 2x hangers , you can order a "hidden" flange type for the one at the head of the stairs so it won't interfere with stairwell trim.

  (http://www.strongtie.com/graphics/products/large/061e-2008.gif) 

A HUSC you may need to add a 1/2" ply layer between as finding a double (net 3" HUSC ) could be a bigger issue than a net 3 1/2" hanger, no big deal better really in many ways for those double beams to be net 3 1/2".

  You can hang that angled stairwell joist , it should be a double as well off the "header" and the other cross beam with  skewed hangers .


Those other "open to below" areas all add dollars / time / hardware. They can be done , they just cost more.

May plan  above assumes the joist go across that room and one double joist conflicts with one "open to below " area.  Could those be shifted or taken out? You do realize those "open to below" areas would require guard rails , or SHOULD if they don't in your mind.   

 


   
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on June 01, 2008, 03:48:05 PM
Yup PEG, absolutely there are railings....the bathroom is on the first floor, and I'd like to make the wee hour trip with my dignity (and my neck) intact.

I've read what you said a couple time, and I get most of it, but, what is a HUSC?

By the way, thanks for taking the time to puzzle this out.  I just really like the way that diagonal "cat walk" breaks up the "boxey" look. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on June 01, 2008, 04:17:08 PM
Quote from: considerations on June 01, 2008, 03:48:05 PM


   #1:Yup PEG, absolutely there are railings....the bathroom is on the first floor, and I'd like to make the wee hour trip with my dignity (and my neck) intact.

   #2: I've read what you said a couple time, and I get most of it, but, what is a HUSC?

  #3: By the way, thanks for taking the time to puzzle this out.  I just really like the way that diagonal "cat walk" breaks up the "boxey" look. 

#1 : I saw that later when I reviewed the earlier posts on your thread. It's hard to keep track of all the different buildings and who doing what .

#2: The hanger I posted is a HUSC , http://www.strongtie.com/products/strongwall/wood-strongwall/husc-hucq.asp

Follow that link to the Simpson site.


#3: All those catwalks cost money , but thats why boxy is cheap-------er , not really cheap. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on June 01, 2008, 05:17:44 PM
You are a gem - thanks, I'll add this into the thought process.  8)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on June 02, 2008, 04:23:21 PM
2 potato.  I just inch along during the week

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/20080602Progress.jpg)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on June 07, 2008, 10:43:08 AM
Almost square, almost level......hate that "almost" part.   [frus]

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/20080606001.jpg)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on June 07, 2008, 01:09:23 PM
Quote from: considerations on June 07, 2008, 10:43:08 AM


Almost square, almost level......hate that "almost" part.   [frus]


How close is your "almost" ? And how are you measuring that? As in pulling  for square alone with a tape , is it pulled taught , are you measuring from the "same" points inside of tape both ways not doing a "inside / outside " swap when pulling.

And for level what are you using , a 4 foot level / 6 foot level/ laser / water level?? And depending on which your using ,"almost" can be different things .

So more details info would be better to let me say "Close enought is Good enought". 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: ScottA on June 07, 2008, 01:17:57 PM
One thing I learned when working with wood there is no such thing as perfect. My floor is +/- 1/2" of flat and within a 1/4" of square by pulling from corner to corner. My good enough might not be the same as your good enough though.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on June 07, 2008, 01:38:56 PM
Quote from: ScottA on June 07, 2008, 01:17:57 PM


 


  My good enough might not be the same as your good enough though.



 
Yes indeed that is true. I'd go with 1/4" for level / (flat,  as in no crowns / humps ) maybe in a cabin would be a better way to view that),  in say 30 LF  Flatter is better. And I like  my pull for "square" #  to be smaller than 1/8" ,"dead nuts on" is better. [cool]

The issues you get later as you build and go upward  seem to magnify / become more apparent as you literally build upon those early , ah ,,, indiscretions / errors.

But of course YMMV , Use no hooks , Void where prohibited by law , etc ,etc. To each there own in others words.     
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on June 07, 2008, 01:56:04 PM
Quote from: ScottA on June 07, 2008, 01:17:57 PM


One thing I learned when working with wood there is no such thing as perfect.




Not to pick on Scott where but he is right in  way . BUT you generally can choose which "side" of something is going to "fair in".

Lets take wall framing for example.

You should crown your studs , putting the crown out , or "up" when your framing the walls on the floor, culling any that are "to crowned" say 5/16th" and up Cull out and use those for blocking , cripple studs under windows , etc etc .

This does a few things

#1: You wall framing will go better as the crowned studs won't be rocking up and down on the "crown " so just handling them , lining up the wall plate and stud flush will be easier as they will be resting on the tips , not rolling on the crown.

#2: Crowned studs will "fair in " better the hump being out , it "hides " better , culling  the studs reduces any "BIG" humps.

#3: Your interior walls will , maybe, help some when they go up to break up those humps and again on those crown the studs and choose which side the "hump" will be on.

On rafters again when you make a pattern you can choose which side the to engage the pattern from so the ceiling , IF say it's a vaulted one , will be the side that engages the rafters as you lay them out , again that fairing in choosing which side "the difference" as wood varies will be put.

This may all seem like "fussy B/S" to some to others it may be helpful to build a better (what ever your building / play house / cabin / fence etc . Just extrapolate the "ideas" to different items / uses.

Or just ignore it , as "Master class" ramblings. :-[         
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on June 07, 2008, 03:13:07 PM
Having done remodeling work on a couple of homes that were "professionally" built with everything :almost" square I can't stand it when 1/4" is seen to be good enough.

As PEG stated, OMMV.  :o
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on June 07, 2008, 10:29:55 PM
I haven't given up. I'll probably spend another day to get it right.  I have exactly the same distance between the nails in those temporary 2 x 4's between the beams, and they are exactly the same distance apart.  I have a laser level, a 6 foot level and a 4 foot level.  Right now the diagonal measurements are 178 and 181"'s on the first 12' section of the beams.  So I'm not square yet.  Looked good until I started measuring the diagonals....but I started at 186 and 179, so progress is being made.  I just keep walking around and tapping each pier in the right direction and it is gradually giving in.   

When all the diagonals are right then I'l go back and make sure the piers are vertical again ( I have a handy dandy post level that shows both sides at the same time. 

Then measure the diagonals again and start making any fine tuning to make the tops of the beams level again, if that has changed. 

The rods supporting the posts are threaded, so I can make the vertical adjustments fairly easily.  Then comes the cross bracing. 

I'll just keep measuring for square and level as I go because I can knock things out of kilter with a few hammer blows. 

I have to agree with you all.  If I get this part right, the rest will be a lot easier.  So if it takes a whole day, it will take a whole day. 

Thank you for the additional discourse about "crowning".  I knew about it for floors, but will refer back to it when I get to the framing.  I didn't know about that part.   
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on June 07, 2008, 11:44:37 PM
 
Whats you total beam length and the distance (outside to outside) of the beam? I can tell you what your  diagonal dimension should be.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on June 08, 2008, 12:41:47 AM
Considerations, it sounds to me like you are dividing the length into sections and taking diagonal measurements off each one. If I interpret you correctly that is not the best way to proceed. Small errors in each section can add onto each other; of course it's possible that they could cancel out each other too, but you never know.

The best method would be to treat the beams as a whole unit. Make certain that each beam is the same length and the same distance apart and measure the two long diagonals. That would need a long steel tape; 50 footers and longer are available. I have a 50 and a 165 from Harbor Freight. For all I use them they'll last me a lifetime. Hmmm, I'm well past the half point...

When you get into lengths like that it becomes important to pull the tape tight for each measurement; they'll hang in a catenary curve if not pulled tight and affect your accuracy.

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on June 08, 2008, 09:01:19 AM
Rethinking what I said above... I suppose is all the measurements along and across the beams were dead on, then taking a section anywhere along the length would be okay. After all the beams aren't going to stretch or shrink, not much anyways.

It's just that I know anytime you're doing anything in sections there's usually more chance for errors to be introduced.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on June 08, 2008, 10:31:01 AM
I''m just wondering if you are at a point where perfect matters yet.  Not meaning , don't do it but rather, if you are at a point where you can hold it all.

I didn't have time to read all of the above well but seems you jut have the post and beams in.  Once you have them pretty close as you did it may be time to start getting some joists and rim joists up there soyou have a way to keep it after you knock it into shape with a few hammer blows - then once you can hold it, get some diagonal bracing either temporary or permanent on there.

PEG supersedes anything I have to say. :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on June 08, 2008, 10:34:10 AM
considerations I normally work with foundations rather than piers but square is square regardless.  I usually find that the best place to start is with a builders square.  Getting the four corners fairly square with this usually just means to "tweak" it diagonally after the rough is obtained.  As far as sectional squareness I agree that it leaves too much variation.  This can be accomplished with string lines from one end to the other after the peremeter squareness is obtained and braced to avoid movement.  

I usually find that 2X (consistent with the width of the beam) material across the end held with deck screws works really well to to get the corners sqaure coming off the beams to the 2X material. It will also allow adjustments without prying and banging such as nails. Once it is really close a small piece of scrap to form 45 deg from the top of the beam to my brace material( across the end of beams) will hold it in place.  Then worry about the interior beam locations wioth the sting approach or measurements.  The only down side that I could imagine would be that your four corners could be sqaure but the interior piers would not be alligned or the same difference across.  

As a added little rough in trick is the 3-4-5 rule.  Meaning if you measured one run 3' and the opposite direction(from the corner) 4' then the diagonal from thoise two points would be 5'.  Make sense?
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on June 08, 2008, 11:16:44 AM
 What Red said , decide which beam you like best where it sits.

Pull a string full length , use 1/2" (or so) spacers to move the line away from the beam , then use another similar spacer to check the beam for straight. This string line technique will come in handy all the way along once you have it down. Two nails on each end , one to hook the bitter end on ( end of the line) then one nail positioned a close by thats bent so the string when pulled tight will ALWAYS snub right in tight against the spacer block . If it's to straight or bent the "wrong " way the line will creep out away from the spacer giving you a bad reading. 

  Once at the other end , again use two nails , wrap / twist the string around you finger about 4 times , then hook that "loop" on one of the nails , use that twist to pull the string tight , very tight it should make a noise when you flick the line  sorta like a guitar string. then just a  couple of 1/2 hitches around the same nail and the line stays tight . Then pull it up and over the other bent nail , same deal bent so the string has to slid down tight against the spacer block .

Now straighten that beam out , you can do the same thing across the top of the beam to see that it's as straight as possible , due to crowns it may NOT be perfect. But where you can , at the joints it should be flat / straight down the side and across the top.

Once thats done you pre cut 2x4 should or will pull the other side pretty close to straight.

Then all you need to do is shift the second beam line until your diagonal measurement is the same .

Like I said if you tell me the over all length and width (outside to outside) I can tell you the diagonal dimension you should have.

  For instance IF your beam length is 24' and width is 8' your diagonal measurement will be 25' - 3 9/16 "   or 303 9/16"



You may need to shift both beam , I know  , so that you stay on your pier pads , if so , get it close  , then set one beam perfect , then adjust the second

to get your diagonal measurement tweaked in.

Simple eh , now IF you had set the pier pad holes closer you'd not have this issue , or as much of one anyway.

Thats why starting right HELPS thru out the whole project . Dirt work suck IMO thats why doing it as close as possible the first time saves doing it over.
 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Willy on June 08, 2008, 02:14:39 PM
Some times it helps to use some screws instead of nails at this point. Hitting the boards with a hammer can knock it out of allinement. Drill a hole and set the screw tight then when all is right nail the crap out of it. Drill the joists undersized for the nail that holds them to the beams then it is easy to nail them on with out the joist moving around. Watch those lazer levels they can give you a bad reading if it isn't a real expencive one. The red line gets bigger the further you are away. Even if the beams are a little out of square the floor joists and flooring plywood can bring it into square sitting on the beams. The most important part is having the beams level. You do need to be square & level as best as you can right from the start or things get worse as you build up. Plywood will give you a big hassle installing it because it "IS" square and needs to be nailed to a square building! Flooring with lines will show out of square on finish, walls longer on one side will make cabnits, counter tops ect not fit. The list goes on and on just because the begining foundation is off on a building. Mark
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on June 08, 2008, 02:43:58 PM
Check with the lazer level also to determine if there is an offset from the base to the light beam.  Although not that much sometimes but these things as Willy had stated have a way of growing and growing and growing as it climbs. String lines can also be used to raise the interior portion of the beams same as the parrallel sides as Pegg explained and I mentioned earlier.

In respects to deck screws.  It has become an intrigual part of any of my projects as it allows for readjustments where as nails prove to be more permanent when the time was not right to be permanent.  Not so much with framing of walls but things that might require adjustments later on.  There is some exceptions like when I screwed locust post to braces for my porch and then couldn't get them out.  I managed though but it is lesson I will not recommit to again. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on June 08, 2008, 06:56:47 PM
Quote from: PEG688 on June 07, 2008, 11:44:37 PM

Whats you total beam length and the distance (outside to outside) of the beam? I can tell you what your  diagonal dimension should be.

the beams are 24' (2 12's) long and from outside edge to outside edge is 120". 

You all are right, I have been working on the first "12 x 10'" part first, because one of those beams sort of "wows".  I thought if I could get that section right, the other would be easi(er).  Sounds like not, like I should be looking at the whole picture at once.  That may help. 


The laser "level".  I have no idea if it is expensive or not.  My neighbor lent it to me, it sits on a tripod and whirls.  If the receiver on the large accompanying ruler is hit by the beam, it shrieks, to high it beeps fast, too low beeps slow.  I used it to get started, and the 6' level and the 4' level back up the findings. 

I'll make plenty of problems for myself as the project goes on, I don't need this to be one.

So, I'm going to use all the replies you kind folk have sent, and fuss with this until it's right.  I barely got the chores done today b-4 settling in to beat a work deadline, but will be at it tommorrow with all this additional info.

Thanks to all of you, I'll let you know how it turns out.

Just for fun I named my grandpa's sledghammer, the "Sledgident"...I've been feeling very "Sledgidental" the last few days, bonking here, smacking there, not a bad way to make an impression.  ;D
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on June 08, 2008, 07:57:49 PM
Quote from: considerations on June 08, 2008, 06:56:47 PM
Quote from: PEG688 on June 07, 2008, 11:44:37 PM

Whats you total beam length and the distance (outside to outside) of the beam? I can tell you what your  diagonal dimension should be.

the beams are 24' (2 12's) long and from outside edge to outside edge is 120". 


26' even or 312". Thats your number , are you sure the beam "Net out" / actually measure  / right on 24 feet? If you have NOT cut them they may be a bit longer as beams and longer lengths of framing lumber can be a fudge long , say 1/2" to 3/4" as a "rough" rule.   
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on June 08, 2008, 09:32:42 PM
I was pre-cutting assorted lumber for a shed today.

The support/skid beams are 6x6 PT, 8 foot long. One was 1 full inch longer and the other 5/8 of an inch longer.

The PT 2x6 floor joists were a nominal 8 foot length. Most were about 1/4 inch longer, but one was over an inch longer.

The SPF 2x4's, not PT, were much better; most right on the money, but even there one 12 footer was 3/4 inch longer.

It always pays to measure everything exactly.

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on June 10, 2008, 04:39:40 PM
Square - 26' 0" just like you said, both diagonals.  Had to stop and get to work on the real job. 

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/20080610002.jpg)

Used the same tape to measure everything, and the sledge hammer to get it right.  Don't worry, those diagonals sticking out at both ends are just to make it hold still while I get the posts all perfectly vertical.  Then I do the final (for this stage) leveling, and make real cross braces. 

Thanks for all the coaching.  It really helps.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on June 10, 2008, 04:46:16 PM
Way to go Considerations.  Just needed a little TLC and tweaked.  Now once you get the joist and decking it should be good to go and not move. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: John_C on June 10, 2008, 04:49:32 PM
I hope you took a bit of time to do a happy dance.

Nice going :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on June 10, 2008, 05:06:25 PM
Didn't dance much, but I'm definitely building a shrine to the sun and rain gods.  Going to try to keep them both happy so I can GET ON WITH IT.

2 days with my nose pressed to the window looking at a good ole November monsoon....yagh. 

Actually, I'm beaming.    [slap]  (ouch!)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: ScottA on June 10, 2008, 07:09:51 PM
Good job.  :D Only a few thousand nails to go.  d*
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on June 10, 2008, 10:02:02 PM
I'll start counting,  from now on....I promise....do I have to deduct the ones I have to pull out?

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on June 10, 2008, 10:08:46 PM
Don't worry about counting the nails.  Now is the time to start counting the $$$$.  It is sort of like a snowball from here on out.  ;)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on June 10, 2008, 10:14:08 PM
darn, I wanted to count the nails. 

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: ScottA on June 10, 2008, 10:23:31 PM
You might better not. I put in over 300 today alone.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on June 12, 2008, 02:48:02 PM
The progress is hard to see, but the first "real" cross braces are in, all the little piers are on their pads, all the brackets and straps have all the holes filled with nails.  Inching along.

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/20080612001.jpg)

All carefully watched over by the resident supervisors.

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Sassy on June 13, 2008, 12:42:26 PM
Very good!  And I like your supervisors - they look to be pretty reasonable  c*
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: ScottA on June 13, 2008, 12:54:06 PM
I don't feel like the slowest builder any more.  heh Go Go GO considerations  d*
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on June 13, 2008, 04:28:40 PM
Yep, i'm slow and it's driving me crazy.  [frus]  But, I at least I didnt foul up a bunch of PT lumber figuring out the angle cuts for the cross braces.  THAT would have been bad.  Got it on the first try.

Tommorrow I have to take my Mother to to see my niece who just returned from 15 months in Iraq.  Probably should leave the Geiger counter at home, ya suppose? 

I could tear my hair out.  I love my family, but geez!

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on June 13, 2008, 04:29:23 PM
Quote from: Sassy on June 13, 2008, 12:42:26 PM
Very good!  And I like your supervisors - they look to be pretty reasonable  c*

As long as there is food
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on June 14, 2008, 10:09:41 PM
Quote from: considerations on June 13, 2008, 04:28:40 PM
Yep, i'm slow and it's driving me crazy.  [frus]  But, I at least I didnt foul up a bunch of PT lumber figuring out the angle cuts for the cross braces.  THAT would have been bad.  Got it on the first try.

Tommorrow I have to take my Mother to to see my niece who just returned from 15 months in Iraq.  Probably should leave the Geiger counter at home, ya suppose? 

I could tear my hair out.  I love my family, but geez!



Right on leaving the geiger counter home.  You might watch her for DU contamination problems.  They are pretty common now even though the military  down play and won't talk about them..
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Willy on June 14, 2008, 11:55:13 PM
Quote from: ScottA on June 13, 2008, 12:54:06 PM
I don't feel like the slowest builder any more.  heh Go Go GO considerations  d*
Careful Dons going to pass you soon, you better keep working on your cabin! Mark
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on June 22, 2008, 03:27:31 PM
Go?  Like this?
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/030.jpg)

Now its off to Houston to see my son get married, back next week.

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: ScottA on June 22, 2008, 05:25:39 PM
Looks good. I never saw red treated lumber before. Maybe they're trying to make it look like redwood.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on July 04, 2008, 08:35:41 AM
I put my glasses on and read the little label on the end of the PT wood.  It says "ground contact".  Which is fine with me, as it gets really wet out here in the winter. 

I have all the cross bracing in on the foundation posts now, going both the short and the long way, on the inside of the rectangle made by the piers.

Next are the diagonal braces that run from the posts to the part of the floor joists that hang out past the beams.  I'm running out of places to attach 2 x4's to the posts.  d* 

But I'm really tickled with that floor deck...I can't find a place where it isn't level.  And my skeptical, and much more experienced neighbor was tres impressed at how square it came out.  You folks have been a great help to me.



Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on July 04, 2008, 08:53:54 AM
considerations way to go. Thought you took a vacation as you hadn't posted for a while.  Just about ready for the deck now?  Keep us posted and the pics coming.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on July 04, 2008, 10:00:51 AM
I must have somehow missed this earlier.  That looks great.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Sassy on July 04, 2008, 10:08:46 AM
Very impressive!   8)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: John Raabe on July 04, 2008, 12:36:56 PM
Nice job! A square and level deck is a certifiably auspicious start for a great project.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on July 04, 2008, 01:17:37 PM
 Nice job! Flat, true  and square all good things ! Now lets move onto Plumb , square and straight :)


I think thats what John was saying  ???  He just used bigger words  [scared] :-X
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: John Raabe on July 05, 2008, 12:16:57 AM
Yes, I thought "certifiably auspicious" would make me sound smarter than I really am...

Now, at my audaciously progressive age, I need all the help I can get. c*
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on July 05, 2008, 12:23:50 AM
Glad I have a dictionary on my computer - whew. [crz]

Look, PEG... that there is what book larniin' will do to ya.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on July 05, 2008, 09:49:12 PM
I took some satisfaction in passing my neighbor's "inspection".  I don't think he thinks I can do this.  He has no idea.....good old boy, nice man. but a good old boy.

I'll be really happy when the roof is on. I got rained out today.  Worked under the tarp for awhile, then remembered I neede blocks between the joists...yagh!  Got half of them cut, 2 installed.  By then I was soaked, not cold, just really wet and muddy. Then I realized the skilsaw was wet....its electric...hmmmm.   That was it.

Put everything away, battened down and headed for the shower. 

I've read everything I could find on this site and on the web and I think I don't want mice in my floor insulation.  So here's the "floor sandwich" I'm planning on.

Under the joists: staple up 1/4" hardware cloth.

Under the insulation: staple plastic string to keep the insulation from sagging down to the hardware cloth.  The insulation is about 6" thick and the floor joists are 2 x 10's

Insulation: R22 Roxol (bats of rock wool)

Floor: 2x6 T&G

Am I missing anything? 

I'll be putting a moisture barrier on the ground as well, but I'll poke holes in it if I do that before I'm done crawling around down there.



Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on July 05, 2008, 10:07:58 PM
considerations don't forget the vapor barrier.  If using faced insulation it would go against the T&G.  If unfaced you can used 6mil plastic on your joist beore T&G.  If you have access to fish net it can work well to hold the insulation in place. They make a cheap netting for this but I am not sure of the cost or availability. Just staple to the underside of the joist.  Depending on the weather you staple the rabbit wire on the underneath side, lay insulation in the cavity and cover with the sheeting.  But you don't want to let it get wet.  Oh I forgot you are in Washington State.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on July 05, 2008, 10:22:03 PM
Oh I forgot you are in Washington State: Yep, and only 2 miles from the official start of the rain forest....but its not exactly a definitive border, so yes, I get my fair share of rain.  I have become the unofficial "Tarp Queen" out here.

If unfaced you can used 6mil plastic on your joist beore T&G: Roxol doesn't have any "facing material", it's just a big batt.

6mil plastic: To keep moisture from coming up through the floor? Does it have to be one solid sheet, or can I overlap smaller pieces?

They make a cheap netting for this: I have some bird netting I used to use to keep the birds out of the orchard, would that work?  The building materials people laughed behind their hands when I tried to explain what I wanted to do...I ended up planning to just use bailing twine, I have thousands of feet from the horses's hay bales, but the bird netting might be easier....hmmm

But you don't want to let it get wet:  The insulation?  So far so good, thanks to the tarps.


Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on July 05, 2008, 11:12:01 PM


Your post brings a few questions , you say your going to use 2x6 T&G decking on the ground floor ? Why ? Your joist are , it appears , 16" OC which is normal for 3/4 T&G Ply or OSB ( Edge gold) The sheet goods would be cheaper and better really for strenght of that floor platform. 

  You don't want to insulate that crawl space until your roof is on , it WILL get wet ,  no doubt in my military mind , at some point your tarp will blow off / tear / and that "new " insulation will be trash.

Yes it will be a PITA to crawl under and do it later but you have plenty of room under there so I highly recommend you wait on insulating.

I'd insulate ,then use your bailing twine to hold it up , under that I'd use Typar then the hardware cloth to keep the critters out.


I would NOT use any plastic vapor barrier up in / on / or under the sub flooring.

I WOULD use a 4 mil vapor barrier directly on the ground after every thing else is done under the place , so the last thing you lay down under there is the vapor barrier.

You should enclose that crawler with  PT plywood  skirting that has vents in it , two on each skirting wall.  Cross venting the crawl space.

  I'd save that T&G Lumber for the loft and use Edge gold 3/4 T&G subflooring / sheathing for the deck.


G/L PEG     
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on July 05, 2008, 11:32:39 PM
PEG: Your post brings a few questions , you say your going to use 2x6 T&G decking on the ground floor ? Why ?

*Because the T&G will be my living room floor.  I'll vinyl or pergo the kitchen and bathroom, but I like the old style softwood floors. 


Your joist are , it appears , 16" OC which is normal for 3/4 T&G Ply or OSB ( Edge gold) The sheet goods would be cheaper and better really for strenght of that floor platform. 

*The joists are 24"OC

  You don't want to insulate that crawl space until your roof is on , it WILL get wet ,  no doubt in my military mind , at some point your tarp will blow off / tear / and that "new " insulation will be trash.
Yes it will be a PITA to crawl under and do it later but you have plenty of room under there so I highly recommend you wait on insulating.

*I thank you, my thigh muscles thank you.  I'll wait.

I'd insulate ,then use your bailing twine to hold it up , under that I'd use Typar then the hardware cloth to keep the critters out.

*Oh lord you're going to think I'm dumb.  what is Typar?

I would NOT use any plastic vapor barrier up in / on / or under the sub flooring.

I WOULD use a 4 mil vapor barrier directly on the ground after every thing else is done under the place , so the last thing you lay down under there is the vapor barrier.

*Yes, that is the plan, except it is 6 mil...I'll keep it with the insulation until it is time to install.

You should enclose that crawler with  PT plywood  skirting that has vents in it , two on each skirting wall.  Cross venting the crawl space.

*Yes, skirting and venting is the plan. 

I'd save that T&G Lumber for the loft and use Edge gold 3/4 T&G subflooring / sheathing for the deck.

*Hmmm.  Is there anything really BAD about a 2" softwood floor?  I know about the marring potential, etc.  I thought it would be strong as well. 



Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on July 06, 2008, 12:07:52 AM
Quote from: considerations on July 05, 2008, 11:32:39 PM


*Because the T&G will be my living room floor.  I'll vinyl or pergo the kitchen and bathroom, but I like the old style softwood floors. 

   Ah,  ya it will work for that , it may shrink more than your thinking so the gaps may be quite large if you don't cover it.

It's very squeaky floor system the T&G tends to squeak , so you should be aware of that.






 

*The joists are 24"OC

  Normally  when  2x6 T&G is used your joist  ,  which where really beams ,, are spaced 4' to 6' apart, it was called post and beam and there where no "joist".

  John has a detail for a beam ceiling in his plans , but you don't have his plans do you? It's hard to remember who has what , who's building what .It's not a problem posting here IF you don't have John's plans so no worries there .

  Maybe with the 2' OC you'll have less squeaking . :)

     






 

*I thank you, my thigh muscles thank you.  I'll wait.

  Oh they'll get to scream at you later along with your knees  ;)




 

*Oh lord you're going to think I'm dumb.  what is Typar?

Building wrap , if your supplier sold you any other brand of house wrap , other than Typar or Tyvek I'd return it . Some where on this  site we had a long discussion about the many wraps , none  are any good , BUT the Typar or Tyvek . The rest are very bad , I think our bottom line is that felt is the best for walls and roofs . But for a vapor barrier under and attached to the joist bottoms for protection and some vapor barrier effect it will be a good thing it comes in 9' and 3' wide rolls the 3' would be the easiest to install   






*Yes, that is the plan, except it is 6 mil...I'll keep it with the insulation until it is time to install.



  That will work as well.



 

*Yes, skirting and venting is the plan. 

Good !





*Hmmm.  Is there anything really BAD about a 2" softwood floor?  I know about the marring potential, etc.  I thought it would be strong as well. 



There's nothing "bad" about it other than what I've mentioned , it "odd" to see it used today we like sheet goods for strenght reasons , but it will be fine , I think it will cost a bit more , BUT you've got your stock already so retuning it at this point is more than likely not possible. As I mentioned it may squeak and it will shrink and dent. So it has down sides.   
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on July 06, 2008, 12:10:12 AM
I was wondering about the T&G on the floor w/o sheeting but I was following what your intentions were.  If you wanted the T&G for the look then yes on the sheeting.  T&G will open and shut throughout the year and as Peg stated there should be a sheeting either 3/4" T&G, Advantex or Surfloor the later of the two will hold up to exposure of the elements if considerable time passes before it can be dried in.

???  As far as the vapor barrier I had been told and follow the advice that it should be at the flooring level on the crawlspace area and not under the insulation toward the ground.  The insulation will hold the moisture if the barrier is toward the ground.  My house has the complete interior walls wrapped with plastic rather than faced insulation.  It provides a much better barrier than the faced which allows air to pentrate past the flaps in faced insulation.  Another reason I suggested it was that I hadn't read any post of sealing in your crawlspace with exterior walls which would prove the gound barrier useless.

I  would say that the bird netting would work great to hold the insulation in place since you will have no way to secure it into the cavity as conventional installation(stapled through the barrier flaps).  Then there is "tiger teeth" which is the wires that are inserted and grip from joist to joist while installing.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on July 06, 2008, 12:12:49 AM

The reason it's used in the loft is it looks good , you install it with the "V" groove side down so the ceiling looks good.

In your case the "V"groove should be down so when your insulating that crawler it will "look good" ,,,,,till you cover it with insulation. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on July 06, 2008, 12:20:43 AM
Quote from: Redoverfarm on July 06, 2008, 12:10:12 AM


???  As far as the vapor barrier I had been told and follow the advice that it should be at the flooring level on the crawlspace area and not under the insulation toward the ground.  The insulation will hold the moisture if the barrier is toward the ground.  My house has the complete interior walls wrapped with plastic rather than faced insulation.  It provides a much better barrier than the faced which allows air to pentrate past the flaps in faced insulation.  Another reason I suggested it was that I hadn't read any post of sealing in your crawlspace with exterior walls which would prove the gound barrier useless.

I  would say that the bird netting would work great to hold the insulation in place since you will have no way to secure it into the cavity as conventional installation(stapled through the barrier flaps).  Then there is "tiger teeth" which is the wires that are inserted and grip from joist to joist while installing.



The whole vapor barrier thing is confusing yes.

IF the insulation has a paper barrier on it it should go to the "warm" side . I've seldom  used the plastic wrap wall thing  , we use a PVA primer that acts as the vapor barrier , most folks here in Western Wa.  do it that way. The plastic can and does go wrong .

For this  VENTED crawl  space and the no paper insulation the Typar will breath , help hold the insulation in place , keep the critters out , and some what protect the insulation.

The plastic thing really worries me as it will hold any moisture that gets in basically forever , and in fact that moisture and the plastic can become it's own distilling plant in the cavity.   
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on July 06, 2008, 12:26:17 AM
considerations Here is a site that might help. I think they even made a poylethlene faced insulation as well as foil & paper faced.


http://www.owenscorning.com/around/insulation/project/crawlunderfloor.asp
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on July 06, 2008, 12:36:50 AM
Peg I really never had a problem as mine was factory installed.  I had to remove some when I built an addition on and it was the same as the day it was installed. That was 12 years ago.  But you mentioned PVA primmer.  I use this also but unless to prime both sides it really doesn't protect the drywall from moisture through the insulated area.   I think another reason is cost.  The unfaced is considerably cheaper than the faced. As you said it is the grey area under the house.

I used a product made by "styrofoam" company which is a foambacked housewrap. It is used in this area. A little higher in price than Tyvek but it makes a good job. Blue in color.  It has the perforations the same as other wraps but is about twice the weight.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on July 06, 2008, 12:56:52 AM
Thankyou PEG and Redoverfarm;

I want this little place to be stout.  I have so many diagonals under the floor that it is good exercise even for a contortionist to get from one end of the crawlspace to the other.

As far as the T&G, I plan on gluing it to the joists as well as nailing and from what I can see, the nails are supposed to be in the joists at least 2 inches to fasten the floor down well.  Maybe Tyvek below the joists will serve to somewhat mitigate the seasonal shrink/swell.  If I don't like the outcome, I can always put some other surface over the planks in the future.

PVA primer:  What do you put it on?

This is exactly why I put my ideas on this forum.  I spent hours researching this floor thing.  I was mostly suprised that:

1: there seems to be little discussion (on the web) about the protecting the crawlspace from entry by various critters that like to set up housekeeping in shelters intended for humans, and

2: the conflicting info about the "vapor barrier" i.e.; under the floor deck, or under the joists, or none at all.  

I appreciate all of your thoughts.  I noticed that at least one other poster on this forum put black sheet plastic directly under their floor decking. But, when considering spills leaking though the T&G and being stopped by solid plastic, I hesitated to choose that option.

I've seen Tyvek for sale here, and read the discussions on this forum about the different "vapor barriers" So, although I had decided to stick with felt for the walls and the roof, I never considered Tyvek under the joists. Thank you.

Living on farms, I've seen fascinating and lively episodes of human/animal interactions when competing for the same living space, ergo the 1/4" hardware cloth.

As for building houses, well, I'm in the beginning stage of OJT....

I have John's plans, and the T&G is going in the loft as well, but that's a future chapter.  
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on July 06, 2008, 01:00:56 AM
Redoverfarm - what are you doing up so late?  It must be 2AM there!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on July 06, 2008, 07:03:27 AM
Just one of those nights.  With the 4th on Friday I didn't work. Spent time withthe family on Saturday. Son went to Rodeo in the afternoon.  That is two days that I hadn't worked to burn off any energy so I guess my body was in high gear from no exercise.  In essence I couldn't sleep.  I'm paying for it this morning.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on July 06, 2008, 09:22:07 AM
Quote from: considerations on July 06, 2008, 12:56:52 AM


PVA primer:  What do you put it on?


The sheetrock (  S/R / GWB Gypsum Wall Board / wallboard / drywall )  walls and ceilings. More than you'll need to know about Gypsum Wall Board by the makers of  "SHEETROCK"

http://www.usg.com/navigate.do?resource=/USG_Marketing_Content/usg.com/web_files/products/prod_details/FIBEROCK_Brand_Abuse-Resistant_Fiber-Reinforced_Gypsum_Interior_Panels.htm

Maybe you won't have sheetrock ? Some folks use T&G Pine , other use other more "non-common" types of wall and ceiling finishs. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on July 06, 2008, 10:15:36 AM
You are right, I wasn't planning on sheet rock.  Which means I'll be researching the "vapor barrier" issue with the walls as well, when the time comes.  I've seen discussions about that on this forum as well...i.e., something needs to be behind "plank" type walls for if/when they shrink. 

I used board and batten on the outsided of my power shed, and found that buying the "planks" early, stacking them loosely and under cover allowed them to shrink a lot (summer time) before I put them up and pretty much took care of issues with the resultant gaps being bigger than the battens. But I'm not ready to think about all that just yet. 

I'm just starting to consider where and how holes in the floor are made for things like electrical and plumbing.  Looks like they come up through the "plates" at the bottom of the stud walls, at least mostly.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on July 06, 2008, 10:36:52 AM
Quote from: considerations on July 06, 2008, 10:15:36 AM


  #1: I used board and batten on the outsided of my power shed, and found that buying the "planks" early, stacking them loosely and under cover allowed them to shrink a lot (summer time) before I put them up and pretty much took care of issues with the resultant gaps being bigger than the battens. But I'm not ready to think about all that just yet. 

  #2: I'm just starting to consider where and how holes in the floor are made for things like electrical and plumbing.  Looks like they come up through the "plates" at the bottom of the stud walls, at least mostly.



#1: Good idea , if you had time you should do the same with the T&G , maybe before you leave for that trip you talked about. IF  ::) summer ever comes here you'll get some good drying time on that floor material. 

#2: Yes most , except kitchen island wires , the rest of the  plumbing pipes / wires / cable / phone / CAT 4 / forced air ducts etc,  etc ,  should be roughly centered in the wall plates.

  So remember that when you nail the plates down keep your nails close -r to the studs (not centered in the stud bay) so when you or a sub goes to bore those holes the nails are not in the way to dull the drill bits , same on the "top plates" keep those nails pretty much over / just to the sides of the stud below , for the same reason IF wires go over head and /or  for plumbing vents pipes.     
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on July 06, 2008, 11:59:42 AM
The only exception to those mentioned by Peg is the toilet which is 12" from the finished interior wall.  I always liked to put an extra brace on each side of the waste line to give the toilet a little more support. 

I had done the Board & Batten on the cabin .  They were air dried for about 7 months before installing. If you do stack the boards to dry do not use a tarp or plastic to cover.  Use just tin or old roofing alowing aire to flow through the stickered boards. I went ahead and cut by batten strips first and used them as the stickers.  I used 1X8 boards and the even # demensions I could obtain from the 7-1/2" board that I ripped for the batten.  I also used a electric hand plane to soften the batten strips edges about a 45 degree chamfer on the edges. It is an old technique that really blends the two.

(https://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd161/redoverfarm/hightop/100_1251-1.jpg)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on July 06, 2008, 02:00:13 PM


Ya and terlets too! I fergot thoses I'm sure there are "other things" as well. How about Bidays (sp) , urinals , in floor outlets , whole house vac systems , any more ?  ???   ??? Gotta be somin else  ???
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: TheWire on July 06, 2008, 09:56:02 PM
A word of caution about those whole house vacuum systems, I heard they really suck.   ;D
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on July 06, 2008, 10:02:57 PM
Easy PEG, you're still beautiful....and smart.  :D

I bought the T&G in early May.  I've had to keep it covered, but am going to change the covering method to increase air flow now that the weather is getting a little better.   I still have the T's fitted into the G's because I'm a little concerned about warpage.  I like the sticker idea....maybe keep each layer "spooned", but seperate them with stickers...hmmmm.

The 2 x 10's I purchased at the same time wasted no time in becoming works of modern art the moment I unstacked them.  

The good news was that they were floor joists, and I didn't have to fit tongues in grooves.  But I learned about quick release C clamps and my grandpa's block and tackle to get them to hold still in the right place long enough to nail them down firmly.   Thought I could only use that block and tackle for lifting things....
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on July 06, 2008, 10:26:56 PM
considerations I pre-finished my T&G because with the 4X8 beams there was no way I could get a good job done between them on the ceiling.  In doing so they lost their original shape.  I borrowed a ratcheting pry bar that has two pegs that fit over the joist(beam in my case) and a bearing that is off centered and a handle.  Sort of canterlever style. In fact they actually sell  one and call it of all things a " board stretcher" .  Mine was homemade.  Had a hard time to keep it from maring the beams so I ended up using 4 & 5' bar clamps.  Once I got the first piece on the side I just kept going back and using it as an anchor then pulled each new board together to the previously attached on.  When I ran out of pipe(bar) I would add another clamp to that one.  I had three hooked together at once to reach the last couple of pieces. If you don't own any it is a good investment. Just buy the end clamp pieces and make them out of 3/4" pipe whatever length you want.

I also found out that you cannot use a standard flooring nailer as they are meant for 3/4" flooring and the nails are 1. Not long enough 2. Do not position the nail in the right angle.  So I ended up using 2-1/2 & 3" deck screws. 2 per beam. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on July 12, 2008, 09:07:40 PM
A little more progress

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/House/InternalCard009.jpg)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on July 12, 2008, 09:19:39 PM
"so I ended up using 4 & 5' bar clamps"

Yup.  I'm now at the end of the 5 footer.  Tommorrow I'll go looking for the materials to make it longer. 

Really Good Advice Redoverfarm.....Don't know why one should need that, you'd think they would just slip together, but no....as soon as I get them out of the stack and on the deck in the hot sun they start acting like potato chips in oil.   You can almost watch it happen. 

Plus, the magic continues.  A nail gun and a big old compressor showed up a few days ago.  I had to call around to see who did that, because I wanted lessons.  Got them. Basically, I just treat it like a loaded gun.   It really helps...once i got the hang of it.  Lots of scrap lumber is now riveted together.   

It's been hot, like 80.  (Ok its hot to us treefrogs).   Work in the AM till it gets ridiculous, then about 5PM the shade comes and there are several hours before dark, and it's cool and nice, whew.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on July 13, 2008, 12:10:11 AM
79.7 out here right now -- and you think 80 is hot -- you silly Washingtonians. :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on July 13, 2008, 12:43:54 AM
Yup, the little webs between my toes started drying out so I headed for the creek.  It's at least 10 degrees cooler down in the grove, and the water?.....wonderful. :D
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on July 13, 2008, 12:45:52 AM
I may have to go jump in Sassy's swimming pool. ::)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on July 13, 2008, 07:04:09 AM
considerations I failed to mention as if you hadn't already thought of it was to take a scrap piece of T&G, rip off the tounge and use the groove piece to fit against the piece you are installing.  This eliminates marring the tounge when drawing the clamp. d*

You can also reverse the ends of the clamp once you have out-reached it's length and use it to push as well from the opposite side if you are that close to the opposite that the clamp will fit.  If not then you can use a couple of long deck screws to secure a block on the floor joist/beams to act as a anchor point for the clamp(pushing) and once you have reached it them move iit further away.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on July 13, 2008, 08:46:43 AM
Nope, had not thought of that....good idea.  cheaper than the trip to town too. [cool]
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on July 13, 2008, 10:55:18 AM
considerations you can also make you a deadman out of 2X4 to hang over the edge of your rim joist and extend toward the other side( length to allow for clamp). Just take an 8'-10'  2'X4" and screw two shorter pieces of 2"X4" (12-18") to act as legs on both sides of one end(90 degree).  Then take a another 2X4 block 8-10" and "T" fashion on the end. You could also use a wood spade bit and drill a hole  4-6" from the end and use that for the non-adjusting end of the clamp)  Then hook your clamp on that to reach.  Just a  couple pieces of scrap and some 3" deck screws and you have made an extension.

I got to thinking that my clamps were universal and could switch the ends. Not real sure what kind you had.  Some won't work either way because of the type of screw handle. 

Some of mine took alot of leverage to pull back and others took very little.  If all else fails then using a block screwed to the joist leaving just enough room between it and the scrap block for a prybar.  Only down side is that you have to keep moving the block for each course run.  Can you tell I enjoy using deck screws.  Cordless drill and deck screws are my salvation at times.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on July 17, 2008, 09:36:31 PM
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/20080717012.jpg)

Got the T&G done.  Time to buckle down and figure out the walls.

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/20080717002.jpg)

I wondered why my apple trees were looking a little scraggly!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on July 18, 2008, 02:24:43 AM
Hmm hmm.  Looks like you got one of them there giant rodent problems, Considerations.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on July 18, 2008, 01:40:10 PM
"I got to thinking that my clamps were universal and could switch the ends. Not real sure what kind you had.  Some won't work either way because of the type of screw handle."


Nope, I could not make them push out instead of pull in. The handles got in the way, like you said.  A couple teenagers from next door made great clamps, it went fast because they were able to move themselves, all I had to do was tag along with the glue and nail guns. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on July 18, 2008, 02:57:04 PM
Yep I got one of those too. Have used the better part of the summer.  I am just about to graduate him from Gofer to Handy.  If he would just listen he might learn something.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on July 19, 2008, 12:00:23 PM
I won't let them use anything more dangerous than a hand saw....all of the power stuff is off limits.  They're both 17.  I think they are both pretty much fending for themselves, not a lot of parental involvement, but seem sincere and willing to work hard....as long as I'm in sight or hearing range.

Interesting how teenage brains work.   These two are good with lineal things, but not so good with judgement calls based on a set of variables. 

Yuk, the only thing wrong with perked coffee is the unintentional swig of grounds in the bottom of the cup.    c*
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on July 19, 2008, 12:26:30 PM
Try it boiled. :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on July 19, 2008, 08:32:34 PM
Quote from: considerations on July 19, 2008, 12:00:23 PM
Interesting how teenage brains work.   These two are good with lineal things, but not so good with judgment calls ....
Teenage brains are still not completely wired to their final adult form.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on July 19, 2008, 11:50:39 PM
Quote from: MountainDon on July 19, 2008, 08:32:34 PM


Quote from: considerations on July 19, 2008, 12:00:23 PM


Interesting how teenage brains work.   These two are good with lineal things, but not so good with judgment calls ....


Teenage brains are still not completely wired to their final adult form.



Youth is wasted on the young! 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on July 21, 2008, 05:13:24 PM
One wall

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/20080721005.jpg)

:D
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on July 21, 2008, 05:53:32 PM
Wow...far out. :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: ScottA on July 21, 2008, 06:59:32 PM
Aren't walls suposed to be vertical?
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: John Raabe on July 21, 2008, 07:10:58 PM
Picky, picky, picky... :D
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on July 21, 2008, 08:17:22 PM
I heard they were supposed to be empty.

Empty Walls (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZSKvSz1roQ&feature=related)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on July 22, 2008, 10:10:14 AM
I only get to work until 2PM each day on the house. Then I have to tend to the "real" job. 

Today is the day to raise tha wall.  I have been searching this site for tips on how to get it up....  oops, Sorry gentlemen, for me that takes research, it doesn't come naturally, like for some.  rofl



Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: John Raabe on July 22, 2008, 10:25:11 AM
House Framing, p. 103, Erecting Walls - Very good diagrams.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on July 22, 2008, 10:45:07 AM
Gotta love lady truck drivers.  They've seen it all...and are not all that bashful. [scared]

It's not too bad to get it up if you do it right Considerations, however just one lady by herself may find it a little hard. d*

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on July 22, 2008, 11:03:41 AM
I confess, I enjoy the banter. 

And thank you John for the reference.  I'm afraid I invested in the Graphic guide to Frame Construction...and it has helped a lot.   

The good news is about this community.  My skeptical neighbor showed up yesterday, with another (not so near) neighbor...they both work on remodels and residential construction.  After the required 1/2 hour or so of kidding about the workmanship so far, they decided to show up today at 10AM with a few teenage sons in tow and pitch in. 

I'm floored (or maybe walled).  I didn't ask, it didn't occur to me.  But this little community seems to have become actively interested in the project.  Even if they are laughing behind their hands, or have decided to save me from myself, I don't care.  It feels pretty good. 

And then, one of them called me to be sure it was ok that they just decided to "horn in".  Are you kidding?!  Its a big relief to have some experience guiding this structural stuff. 

First it was just the tools showing up. Now, it's people.   Wow....just wow.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on July 22, 2008, 11:39:10 AM
That's great, considerations.

Nice to know you now have help getting it up.  Soon you will be an experienced hand at it. :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: John Raabe on July 22, 2008, 11:41:08 AM
Great to hear, Considerations!

This is why building your own house is such a memorable and human experience. People have been doing this for each other for thousands of years. One of the basic bonds of community.

Another is a good house fire, but we won't go there now. ;D
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on July 22, 2008, 05:19:19 PM
Amazing what 4 hours with an experienced lead can do.

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/20080722003.jpg)

:D
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on July 22, 2008, 05:21:36 PM
Ooops I forgot to mention......Parker ( the framing God), brought me two books to study on.  One is House Framing....and page 103 is exactly what you said John..about raising walls.  I had to laugh.

More to follow....
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on July 22, 2008, 05:27:18 PM
Good deal.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: ScottA on July 22, 2008, 05:37:18 PM
Looking good. At this rate they'll have you dried in in no time. Just be sure you have plenty of lemonade.  d*
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on July 22, 2008, 07:34:12 PM
I'd be willing to come up with more than lemonade if it would bring those boys back. 

I shudder to think how long this sort of progress would have taken if I was working singlo.

;D
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on July 22, 2008, 11:18:32 PM
(https://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x312/wastefulyouth/schultz.jpg)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on July 23, 2008, 09:07:39 AM
Glenn, where did you get that?  I haven't thought about him in years.  I used to watch that silly program avidly....I was a kid, but it was some of the better entertainment available at the time.  rofl
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on July 23, 2008, 11:38:56 AM
When I have need of a special picture for a reply I am afraid to commit my own comments to, I search image on Photobucket first, as they will always be available.  That's where Schultz came from.

You can do a Google search and paste the location into our image bracket, but if the site the image comes from doesn't allow leaching or is mean they may substitute a dirty picture.  The safest way in a case like that is to copy it to your Photobucket account then paste the IMG tag from your saved picture.

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Sassy on July 23, 2008, 12:05:05 PM
How nice to have all the help!  I guess you impressed them enough that they figured they'd join in on the project  8)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: akemt on July 23, 2008, 12:54:19 PM
I've seen this book suggested before:

http://www.amazon.com/Working-Alone-Tips-Techniques-Building/dp/1561585459/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1216835459&sr=1-1

For $6-12 it might just save some time, trouble, and headaches (among other aches)! 

Best of luck and great progress!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: apaknad on July 23, 2008, 02:56:42 PM
i just got that book a couple of days ago. chock full of tips. good buy for me. a seasoned pro probably knows alot of this but for me it will be very helpful. i bought it on a members recomendation( maybe j. raabe). [cool]
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on July 24, 2008, 07:25:32 AM
4 walls

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/20080723003.jpg)

This one i did myself.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on July 24, 2008, 09:41:25 AM
That's great, Considerations.  You got it up all by yourself.  Good job.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on July 24, 2008, 03:08:21 PM
[quote   I have been searching this site for tips on how to get it up....  oops, Sorry gentlemen, for me that takes research, it doesn't come naturally, like for some.  rofl
[/quote]


Congratulations.  You had doubts that you couldn't get it up but managed.  See you are not as old as you thought.  You are only as old as you feel.  Most of the time I am pushing 90.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on July 24, 2008, 05:44:25 PM
Eh, life goes in circles.  I'm 20 in the morning and 75 in the afternoon when I'm done being humbled by one too many 2x6s.  Crawl to the house hose down in the shower, a little nap sometimes, work in the office till 10 or 11PM, fall into bed, start over at 20 in the AM. 

What the heck, makes me look forward to waking up.  (Just avoid the mirror and self delusion is easy)

;)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on July 24, 2008, 06:11:40 PM
Yeah - some joker has been swapping my mirror image out for some old guy. [crz]
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on July 25, 2008, 10:07:10 AM
I just keep pulling the pony tail tighter....helps a little  d*

The good news is we are around to complain about it.  The other alternative is to not be.

I prefer the sticking around and complaining option. 

I try that with my 79 year old mom, though, and she laughs at me.  "just wait" she says.

Kinda puts things into perspective.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on July 25, 2008, 10:18:28 AM
Well - I don't have a pony tail so am letting my beard grow longer and heavier.  I guess there's no sense in getting long faced about it.  It's inevitable. [crz]
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on July 26, 2008, 05:59:51 PM
Dad always said he didn't go bald, his hair just migrated south.  He had an awesome beard.

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on July 27, 2008, 02:05:38 AM
That's not bald... It's a solar powered se_ machine d*
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on July 28, 2008, 11:13:43 PM
Progress is slow during the week, but the headers are going into place.  My neighbor borrowed his compressor back, so back to the hammer. Didn't take long to get out of practice with it.  Nailed my thumb.  Yagh.  I hit it so hard it is bruised on both sides, the nail is purple....ick.  I was doing so well, driving 3-1/4" nails and none of them bent.  Really got into it. 

Oh well,  just like horses I guess.  If you don't fall off once in awhile, you're not riding enough. 

8)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on July 29, 2008, 01:15:18 AM
Oh considerations - purple nails are my specialty.  It will be painful and to get relief you need to drill a hole in it.;  I use a pin drill from a welding supply.   Spin it until it drills a hole in the nail.  the blood will squirt out and relieve the pressure --- owwww ---- ahhhh.

I'm afraid the beer is going to put me to sleep -g'nite.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on July 29, 2008, 06:23:05 AM
If it is really putting pressure on the finger you can also take a paperclip and heat it up until it's red.  Then it will instantly burn through the nail and let the pressure off. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on July 29, 2008, 10:21:54 AM
Thanks gentlemen...I'm probably the only one weeny enough to even mention that I did this.  I showed it to a friend, and he laughed, said "that's not bad, what's bad is when you hit it so hard that the skin splits like a sausage".....eeeeowwh.....so I guess I'm still not fully initiated yet. 

Glenn you are amazing.  I'm whining about my thumb, and you take the time from holding a fire away from your house to offer advice. 

Which detracts nothing from you, Redoverfarm...and your coaching..thank you as well.

I love this forum!



Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Woodswalker on July 29, 2008, 10:42:34 AM
That's an average thumb wound.  I once tried changing a broken blade in a saber saw without umplugging it.  When the trigger got bumped, it whacked the broken blade through the nail about 3-4 times and pounded the flesh as well.  It hurt so bad I couldn't even yell - just sat down and turned white as a ghost.  The nail eventually fell off, but grew back again just fine.  Needless to say, I unplug tools now all the time before even thinking of doing anything with them.

Nice job on your place, you're doing good.  Have been following your progress.  Folks on this site have been giving you some fine advice.  Keep on build'n.

Steve
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on July 29, 2008, 05:43:42 PM
No problem, Considerations.  All in a days work. ::)

...and I did whine about falling off the roof. d*  Found a line on my chest where I hit the 2x4 top rail of the deer fence when I found I couldn't walk on water, (or tin as the case may be).  I gotta admit --- I'm even a good faller. :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: John_C on July 29, 2008, 05:55:20 PM
New maxim        That Glenn he's a real good faller.     (too bad I can't type with a slurred accent) ;D
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on July 29, 2008, 06:10:30 PM
Oh Shucks. I have been telling everybody that he could walk on water.  But I guess he can fly some. ;D  I tell you it was that Instant Coffee.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on July 29, 2008, 08:32:52 PM
It is raining here, hard.  I stuck the ladder in the middle of the floor, and put a huge tarp over it and all of the floor except because the stud walls are up, I cannot cover the bottom plates and the floor under it.  Plus there is a row of OSB along the bottom of each long wall. 

I know how to drain the tarp without getting the floor (except the edges) wet, because it started drizzling a few days ago.  The floor is 2x6 T&G.

Am I in trouble, or is some rain ok? 

Or, how much trouble am I in?

Lots of work in what is up so far.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on July 29, 2008, 09:23:12 PM
Not really healthy for it but not a total disaster.  It is nailed in place which will help hold it shape somewhat.  I would try to sweep the majority of the water off when it stops raining.  Then Mother nature (sun) will do the rest.  It may raise some or seperate at the joints but may go back since it's attached.

CF you need to hustle and get a roof on it.  If it were anything other than T&G I wouldn't worry as much but that is going to be your finished floor probably.

Oh I forgot you are in Wash State.  How far are you from getting the rafters up and sheeting? 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on July 29, 2008, 09:32:37 PM

  I'd  say,  no problem,  the T&G will take it , it may check some , but it's going to do that anyway , some what.

  Just sweep it out , make sure your bottom plates are nailed down well to the line you should have snapped and set the walls to , then cut out any door openings bottom plates and sweep the water out those holes in the plates. The door openings.


  Your going to have to sand the decks anyway once your done with your drywall and painting.

There's other tips like covering the floors with building paper AFTER you are in the dry to help some with the floors , but for now just let it rain it will dry out tomorrow , well maybe the next day  ;)

  At your current pace you should have the roof on and  ready shingled  / roof before the real rains start  in late Oct. 



Edited to add :

BTW don't hog all the rain , my gardens a bit dry , a nice shower would help out / save city water , so send some our way eh! :)   
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on July 29, 2008, 10:08:09 PM
"How far are you from getting the rafters up and sheeting?"

2-3 weeks.  I was setting headers and top plates, then
ceiling joists
t&g Loft
rafters
sheets
metal

Yep 2-3 weeks....I set my dry in date as Oct 1, but my helpful neighbors say Sept 15 to beat the rain.

Compost happens.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on July 30, 2008, 03:07:03 AM
Quote from: Redoverfarm on July 29, 2008, 06:10:30 PM
Oh Shucks. I have been telling everybody that he could walk on water.  But I guess he can fly some. ;D  I tell you it was that Instant Coffee.

That's it, John.  You're a genius.  I wasn't falling -- Homey don't do dat.  I was flying. d*
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on July 30, 2008, 03:00:39 PM
The glide path is a little steep with no wings.  Doesn't matter how fast you flapped your arms.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on July 31, 2008, 12:00:15 AM
All I could think was "Boy - this must really look stupid."
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 04, 2008, 10:24:56 PM
Got headers and cap rails on today.  Too tired to take a pic.  Tomorrow is ceiling joists.

I had to steal a 2 x 6 from the roof lumber pile.  Hope it wasn't a ledger board.  Yagh.

d*
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on August 04, 2008, 11:10:50 PM
Good show, old chap. :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 05, 2008, 04:43:00 PM
It was a good day.

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/20080805002.jpg)

:)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on August 05, 2008, 04:49:06 PM
Looking good considerations.  Don't forget to put your blocks over the window headers to distribute the weight.   
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 05, 2008, 05:07:35 PM
I did cripples, in the places where the floor will end up going all the way to the wall.  But there are some open spaces in the loft floor, and I have to cut back and support those ceiling joists where they aren't going to reach all of the way.  So I didn't want to put any cripples up in those places just yet. 

I need to think about that some.  If you go back to page one or two of this thread, you'll see the tentative flexible floor plan that shows them.    I have figured out how to do this in the stair well on the other side.  I need to think about the part over the kitchen.  I think I know what to do, but I will get the tape out tommorrow and do some measuring and thinking and balance it with the reality of what is there so far.

Thank you, however, for mentioning it.  It's easy to miss things.  At the end of a day, I'm tired, and just go inside and shower.  Then when its time to feed the horses, I clean up the site, and put away all the tools.  In the morning, when I'm bright and rested, I work on the puzzles.



Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: ScottA on August 05, 2008, 06:28:44 PM
Good progress. You might want to think about some braces now that you are going up to hold the walls plumb. Also did you notice the date is wrong on your camera?  d*
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Sassy on August 05, 2008, 08:27:43 PM
Great job, considerations!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 05, 2008, 11:18:02 PM
Braces?  My grandpa wore them to keep his socks up. 

I used braces to hold the walls straight and still until they were all nailed together...

Can you say a little more about the braces you are referring to?   :-\

The date on the camera, oh yes, thanks...I cant see the little bugger without glasses, and it reverts to some default every time I pull the card to stick it in the computer and download new pics.  Oops.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on August 05, 2008, 11:28:18 PM
Quote from: considerations on August 05, 2008, 11:18:02 PM


I used braces to hold the walls straight and still until they were all nailed together...

Can you say a little more about the braces you are referring to?   :-\



You need to leave the temporary bracing , generally 1x4 or 2x4's run on a diagonal on the inside of the studs until, AT LEAST, all your wall sheathing is installed and nailed off. I generally leave any temp bracing on until the roof is sheathed and the rat runs , if any, ( truss roofs generally have rat runs, or bracing up in the truss webs) are installed.

Your walls although stood and nailed together are not a unit until the sheathing is on and nailed off , or at least most of it , that lower row you have on is not enought to hold everything plumb and square. As you start walking on your loft joists to sheath them the building will wobble.

So add at least one brace inside on each wall and recheck your walls for plumb.

Lookin good, 8) keep posting the photos we'll see things you may not know about, like this bracing and can give you a heads up before it becomes a issue. 

     
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on August 05, 2008, 11:31:19 PM

BTW wheres your stair well ??? You should be framing that in BEFORE you sheath that loft deck. Moe easy that way  ;)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 06, 2008, 12:57:41 AM
Thank you all for the info.  I'll get on it in the morning. 

You're right, it did wobble.  Still, it was pretty neat to finally get up there.

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 06, 2008, 05:52:11 PM
Skinning (reverse) in process.  The plumb bob and the level says things are still square and plumb......but it doesn't wobble anymore. 

Thanks to all of you for the coaching.

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/20080806004.jpg)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on August 06, 2008, 06:12:47 PM
CF I wasn't sure what you were doing with the 2nd story/loft for a floor.  Maybe you said and I just over looked it.  But if you are doing 2X6 T&G there also and plan to put up any partitions be carefull when attaching the sill plates.  You standard 16d framing nail is 3-1/2" long and it will protrude down through into the ceiling area of the 1st floor.  I used 2-1/2" deck screws which when flush to the sill plate you still have 1" holding in the T&G.  Not really a problem if it works out over the floor joist but usually doesn't going one way or the other.  Had it in my mind and thought I would pass it along.  Just another thing to clutter your construction mind as if it is probably getting cramped.  I was doing my bathroom in the loft and while it was still fresh.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: ScottA on August 06, 2008, 06:51:41 PM
Looks great!  :) I was doing a little framing today too. Damn it was hot though.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on August 06, 2008, 06:55:38 PM
Scott mine was in the loft.  It was 80F on the 1st floor but by afternoon it was considerably more in the loft.  Took longer than I thought to work out the framing against a 10/12 pitch rafter. I would have been done if it were a flat celing.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 06, 2008, 07:07:32 PM
"be carefull when attaching the sill plates"

I'm only "on page 124".... I think you are ahead of me.  I'll look up sill plates. ???

I pinned some OSB up there, just so I could "survey the estate"....but my neighbors (they are great fun) have formed a consensus that to beat the rain, I should just keep going on the OSB and get the roof on...do the 2 x 6 T&G floor after.  

As always, thanks for the advice.  There is no way I could do this by myself.  

What I think I've figured out is that when you have experience at this, you are always thinking several moves ahead.  When you (me) are at it for the first time. I read the directions in the various framing books, go do step 1, go read the book, go to do step 2, and sometimes I have to back up a little, because I sort of "painted myself into a corner...because I didn't know how step 1 would affect step 2.

Anyway, its an adventure, and so far so good.  There have been adjustments along the way.  I gave up on a $624 sliding glass door...because it was $624....I decided I liked the $161 hinged doors better.  

I have to rethink the back steps from upstairs....the 12/12 roof will cut me off at the sternum when the stairs go around the corner of the house....haven't pondered a workable answer to that yet.  I'm staying focused on a finished roof, and will explore the stair issue later.  That's just part of the journey.  

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on August 06, 2008, 07:42:31 PM
CF the sill plate or bottom plate is what the bottom of the studs are nailed to.  I think the proper term is "bottom plate" but it is basickly the same as a sill plate on the exterior wall.  Peg correct me if I am wrong.  I wasn't trying to second guess you in the steps just didn't want you to make the mistake that alot of others have made.   They have a real nice open beam ceiling only to discover that they nailed their plates down upstairs and the nails are sticking down through the ceiling about an inch.  d*
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on August 06, 2008, 10:30:35 PM
Quote from: Redoverfarm on August 06, 2008, 07:42:31 PM


CF the sill plate or bottom plate is what the bottom of the studs are nailed to.  I think the proper term is "bottom plate" but it is basickly the same as a sill plate on the exterior wall.  Peg correct me if I am wrong.  I wasn't trying to second guess you in the steps just didn't want you to make the mistake that alot of others have made.   They have a real nice open beam ceiling only to discover that they nailed their plates down upstairs and the nails are sticking down through the ceiling about an inch.  d*



   Bottom plate,  would be the term I'd use.

  Red's talking about any loft walls you build on the loft floor.  When you get to those remember not to just nail the plates down as IF you do and the nails are 3" long they will leave 'pecker tracks', blow thru's that will show on the ceiling below.   

  I agree with the neighbors  temporally sheet that loft floor with some of the roof sheathing (if you have to use it rather that buy sheets for the temp floor) get your rafters up , then your facia and rake boards.

  After that you can leave those sheet in place as a temp floor at least while you sheet the first roof side. Then as needed  start take them up , from the  loft floor, and slide them out a rafter bay right onto the rafters. Maybe you'll have a few sheets left over, or some pieces, that  you can use to stand on as you "run out" of sheets.

Worry about the loft floor after the roof is on. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 07, 2008, 02:05:51 AM
Thanks, all of you.  Its humbling to be so publicly ignorant.  Nope, I don't want nails sticking through the ceiling.  Bad form. 

I accept all the comments with gratitude...sometimes a little angst, as I scramble to look up a new term.  But, wonder of wonders, I now comfortably discuss the more common uses of residential lumber, making distinctions between beams, rafters, headers, and keep adding different kinds of plates to the mental library.  I know, just wait until I start on the interior....a whole new vocabulary awaits.

My building supply store personnel loves you guys because now I don't come in looking for thingamabobs and sky hooks. (at least not as often)  rofl

Redoverfarm, trying to give a pilgrim a little warning about how step 2 could affect step 3 is exactly what I need.  That's the voice of experience I simply do not have.  Keep it coming, please.

And Scott, I'm grateful about you pushing me to get the OSB on the walls. 

You'll all smile.  There are 3 burly neighbor guys showing up Monday to "help" set the ridge and rafters.  Famous!  With all of them running around up there, those walls would have really wiggled...or worse.

The neighbors keep converging to see what's going on.  Another friend said, gee, I have this old Franklin stove I would love to get rid of....

Yes, it is old, but good looking, in beautiful shape and completely functional...I don't think it was ever used much.  How does one return such a favor in kind?  It will take a while to puzzle that one through.

I've been on my own for years, self sufficient and independent.... so used to doing for myself that the largess of the neighbors is embarrassing.  But it is darn hard to say no. 

I really didn't know for sure how I was going to do that roof by myself.  I'd have gotten it done one way or another  [noidea' but things are looking pretty good for a much earlier dry in date than I could have hoped for doing it alone.


Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: apaknad on August 07, 2008, 07:15:20 AM
well considerations,

not to embarass you but you are kinda my new hero. :) with your perserverence and dedication and openess to learning it makes me feel that i too can build a house. i know a little more than you do but not all that much. keep pushin' on.
i built a garage with the same type of lineal thinking that you are using, ie., read step 1 and do it, go back to book and read step 2 etc...
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on August 07, 2008, 08:29:48 AM
  Don't forget your people keepers, 2x4 nailed thru the sheeting into the rafters , to keep people on the roof.

Or go rent or buy some roof jacks, you'll need those anyway IF you shingle your own roof. You'll need one or the other to sheath that roof , might want them on hand this weekend, plan ahead,  wouldn't want to squander the help for lack of a some 2x4's.   

  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/315S56HXQYL._SL500_AA160_.gif)   

Home Despot or your local lumber yard may have them. 

BTW IF you get the roof jacks 2x6's work best with them. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 07, 2008, 09:04:03 AM
PEG, do those roof jacks still apply if the plan is to OSB - felt paper - metal sheet the roof?

How far apart should they be?  That would help with how many I would need.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on August 07, 2008, 09:13:25 AM

  No they wouldn't help with a metal roof , but they would for sheeting the roof. About 10' apart ,  use 12' long 2x6's , you nail ithru the slotted holes , thru the OSB,  into the rafter top, Then the 2x6's rest in the hook , with day help like your getting they will make it safer than just a 2x4 'people keeper' like we pro's use.

But they won't help with the metal roof install.     
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on August 07, 2008, 12:39:56 PM
CF for the metal roof you can use the 2X4 people keepers as mentioned by just nailing them down to give you footing.  But with Metal you have to move them on each sheet of metal.  Then of course you could make an inexpensive "Chicken Ladder" that hangs down both sides of the roof to the eve and just keep moving it back as you go.  I know you don't have a tractor but a truck bed will work also if you can move around on both sides.  A long extension ladder up the roof slope and rested on the cab side of the bed to keep it from kicking out.  Why I say tractor is that I put my metal on using a wooden ladder rested in the bucket of the tractor.  Just had to relocate the tractor every two sheets of metal.  I perfer the ladder system as you can screw the metal from the bottom to the top without repositioning the people keepers or roof jacks. Just food for thought.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 07, 2008, 08:50:31 PM
PEG, was "Home Despot" intentional or a Freudian slop?

Its punny, no matter what.   :D
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on August 07, 2008, 11:05:16 PM
Quote from: considerations on August 07, 2008, 08:50:31 PM


PEG, was "Home Despot" intentional or a Freudian slop?

Its punny, no matter what.   :D



Intentional I could have called it the Borg. As in Star Trek, you will be assimilated, resistance is futile, as the big box stores sort of assimilate/ take over other like and kind smaller company's.

BORG also could be a acronym for Big Orange Retail Giant, take your pick, I was a Star Trek fan so I like the assimilate thing. 

But don't get me wrong I like my local Home Despot , but I like to kid around as well. Nothing wrong with most of what they sell, bu it's not a place to buy lumber , or 'finish' plywood like Shop birch, oak , etc.   
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 07, 2008, 11:20:28 PM
I think I just want a sky hook....or wings. The chicken ladder sounds interesting. 

I want to live long and prosper.....heard that somewhere, liked it.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on August 07, 2008, 11:41:18 PM
Quote from: considerations on August 07, 2008, 11:20:28 PM


#1: I think I just want a sky hook....or wings. The chicken ladder sounds interesting. 

#2:   I want to live long and prosper.....heard that somewhere, liked it.



#1: That could work , this will be hard to understand but read it a couple of times and it might make sense.

After your sheathed , the roof, and nailed off. Start your felt form the ridge down , NOW you need to lay it so the upper piece is OVER/ on top of the one below it .

So you'll roll out the top  course , tacking it down with a hammer tacker/ staple gun , LEAVING the lower edge loose , then roll out course #2 and slide it under the one above, do this as you work your way down the roof. Removing your people keepers as they get in the way , keep adding paper cousre as you come down.

The chicken ladder could be site made , out of 2x4 for the sides and 1x4 as 'rungs' space what ever distance apart feels comfortable to you or who ever will be working off of it. Then slide one up each side and attach at the peak so it runs up one side and down the other . On the under side the side laying on the roof you'll need to make sure the couple maybe three spacers you put on that side are smooth recess the fasteners so they don't tear the felt as you side the chicken ladder side ways. Then you can work both sides of the roof with the metal and move from one end to the other.   


#2 Spock said that on the original Star Trek , the Borg where in Star Trek, The Next Generation , with Captain Jon Luke Picard.

  On one show they had Scotty , the chief Engineer from the Org. Star Trek on , the Engineer, Jordy LaForge who worked for Capt. Picard  was fixing some thing , like they did , life or death fix it or die type stuff. Any way he told Capt P. "I need 20 minutes" Scotty after LaForge has signed off with Capt.P , sez , "OK, How long will this take?"  La Forge looks at him funny and sez , " 20 minutes!" Just like I told the Capt'n!" Scotty sez " Eye lad ye gotta fudge the numbers! How else will the Capt. KNOW your a miracle workerrrrrrrrrr!"

So Scotty been liein thru his teeth to Capt. Kirk all those years ! rofl rofl rofl     

       
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on August 08, 2008, 01:55:32 AM
"Aye Capt'n.  I can't 'old 'er together.  You keep pushin' 'er this hard, she's gonna blow."

Careful, PEG. [crz]

Some of these projects are very rough on engines.. d*
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: John_C on August 08, 2008, 07:05:19 AM
QuoteI was a Star Trek

Ditto from one "Ugly bag of mostly water" to another.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 12, 2008, 07:49:26 PM
Ta Dah!   Then it started raining again.   :)

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/20080812007.jpg)

There is a beam in there - REALLY!  All those skewed sticks are stabilizers.

No, I didn't do it alone. The burly boys showed up and basically sent me packing.  I cut and handed up and cut and handed up and recharged the compressor and cut and handed up and and and stood on my tiptoes with a camera and climbed the ladders to poke my head up and watch and cut and handed up...  Like the littlest kid being left behind.  But its a start, and I think everyone had a good time. Lots of laughing.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on August 12, 2008, 07:58:01 PM
Way to go CF. Won't be long now til your in the dry. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on August 12, 2008, 08:26:06 PM
That's great.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on August 12, 2008, 09:54:32 PM
 

Ya quit cuz it rained a lil ::) Real carpenters won't melt , we do rust some, but we don't melt!

  Good job, ah,,,,,,, ya, thats what I meant to say ;D    [cool]
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 12, 2008, 11:37:38 PM
No, that's not why we quit.  I start my real job at 2PM.   :(

I would plant a money tree if I could, but well, I haven't found on yet.   :(
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: ScottA on August 13, 2008, 04:58:24 PM
Looking good! Keep at it and you'll be dry in no time.  :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Mad Dog on August 13, 2008, 08:22:31 PM
Looking good, someday I'll be at that point.  d*
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 13, 2008, 08:43:37 PM
 8) Dont laugh, that ridge beam is my sky hook....always wanted one.

Really, I don't think I get to keep it all, but it looks hilarious.  Like I could haul hay into the loft.

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/20080813002.jpg)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 13, 2008, 08:52:22 PM
"BORG also could be a acronym for Big Orange Retail Giant, take your pick, I was a Star Trek fan so I like the assimilate thing."

PEG, I'm still a Star Trek fan, they just quit making new episodees. 

I fell for Battlestar Gallactica.  I don't have TV anymore, but get it on the Internet.  Edgey...sometimes lame, but pretty good as far as TV programming goes.

I had to recently cross space travel off my list of things to do before I di....disappear.   So a little vicarious space travel is ok compensation.

I told one of the guys today, in answer to a question: "Make it so Number One"....and his eyes about popped out....the others teased him the rest of the day.  (he had no clue)

I think I owe him a rhubarb pie.  Seem to have plenty of it around.   

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on August 14, 2008, 01:59:03 AM
I love rhubarb pie.  Maybe I should help. d*
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: georgevacabin on August 17, 2008, 09:54:01 AM
Hey Considerations,

You are my newest hero!  :)  I'm keeping an eye on your great progress.  Keep up the good work and keep the photos coming.  Thanks!

My best,

George
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 19, 2008, 04:17:41 PM
the adventure continues

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/20080819002.jpg)

;D

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: ScottA on August 19, 2008, 04:55:17 PM
Looks great! The date is even right.  ;D
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on August 19, 2008, 04:56:32 PM
Looking good CF. Like your big skylite. ;D
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on August 19, 2008, 06:22:27 PM
Looks great considerations.  I assume you are taking good care of the boys. :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 22, 2008, 01:39:11 AM
Had to think about that some.  The short answer is yes.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on August 22, 2008, 10:24:30 AM
That should get things accomplished. :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 22, 2008, 04:11:10 PM
Had to let things dry out, but there is more rain coming.  Good grief! We were supposed to dry in by September 15 to beat the rains.   >:(

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/20080822004.jpg)

I have the mother of all tarps on the roof now.  That's something.

I might sleep up in the loft tonight, just because I can.  ;D

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on August 23, 2008, 12:26:43 AM
Way to go, Considerations -- sleeping in it already.  Cool. :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: ScottA on August 23, 2008, 08:06:34 AM
You're making great progress. How was the camp out?
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on August 23, 2008, 10:45:46 AM


  Odd weather for August  ??? Looks good, you'll have a lot of back framing to do , like the vent / bird blocks / anti- rotation block between the rafters that would have been easier to do before sheathing the roof , and the facia boards, but getting the OSB on the rafters was maybe more important when you had help.

What kind of facia you putting on? As in it looks like it will be square to the rafters / tipped to the side walls? Or are you going to sister rafter tails along side the rafters?

Like Scot asked , how'd it sleep?


Keep up the good work :)         
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 23, 2008, 11:18:51 AM
Slept well, my supervisor (my 15 year old cat) was a little perturbed, I had to carry him up and down the ladder. Eliminated any lounging around this morning, he had something to take care of.

He used to climb them easily, not so now.  I hung a work light and every moth in the county came to check it out.  Screens will be a good thing.

Yes PEG, some stuff will have to be done backwards, but I cannot keep letting the interior get soaked.

The rains here are real, not sprinkles.  And they seem to be coming sooner than is usual.  Last year was similar, but not to the degree we seem to  be experiencing this year.

You are on Whidbey so you have some appreciation for this. I'm in the transition zone between Sequim's rain shadow and the rain forest, but only two miles from the "official" start of the rain forest. 

All this work is not going to get ruined because I don't want to work with some awkward nailing angles.

OK - on the rafters.  They will stop there except for weather protection (facia, etc.) because just below them, on each side will be some shallow windows that don't open (basically where the OSB is not, on those walls.  A few in the stair well on the other side and a few sort of over the open window on the side you can see. 

Then, below the windows, basically where the OSB starts, will be another roof, with much less of a slope.  On the side you can see, the roof will be over a porch, and on the other side the roof will be over a carport.

The sealed windows will help getting light into both floors. 

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/My14x24Option02a.jpg)

See the little windows?

Then that porch and the carport on the other side will be roofed with a lesser slope.



Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 23, 2008, 11:36:27 AM
Then, of course, the gods will prove me wrong and September will be sunny and dry  d* and I'll be stuck with all this backhanded work in hot weather.   rofl
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on August 23, 2008, 01:06:26 PM
Nice drawing, Considerations.   You are very complicated, for a truck driver. :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 24, 2008, 09:32:53 AM
Gee Glenn, that was just one block in this life quilt that keeps being stiched together. 

I think everybody has done lots of things in their lives.  It was an adventure, and the skills have served me well, even yesterday when I moved a 30' 5th wheel for the neighbors.....but truck driving did not become a career. 



Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 24, 2008, 09:40:51 AM
I sort of chickened out on the roof thing.  I figured being up there alone was a little silly for someone who needed to run to "the book" for each step.  :-\

So not, I'm not up on my roof alone.  I hired a guy to help me with the roof.  But what I discovered was I hired him so I could help him.

He kept coming over to help, and this is the sort of work he does, how could I not?  Didn't seem right at some point.  One can overdo leaning on the good will of the neighbors.

Plus, I'm likely to enjoy this place in the winter, rather than staring at a rotting hulk.  And he knows how to install skylights!  I think I would like a couple.

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on August 24, 2008, 09:48:44 AM
Quote from: considerations on August 24, 2008, 09:32:53 AM
Gee Glenn, that was just one block in this life quilt that keeps being stiched together. 

I think everybody has done lots of things in their lives.  It was an adventure, and the skills have served me well, even yesterday when I moved a 30' 5th wheel for the neighbors.....but truck driving did not become a career. 





All trades seem to overlap and I assume you get bored like me - can't stay with one.  That's part of why I like to learn as many as possible - that and so I don't get stuck by someone who wants to take me to the cleaners. 

I was never one who thought I should specialize in one thing.   I want to specialize in lots of things - more opportunity to make a living too.

I think you are doing great on your project and we all know if you really wanted to you could do the roof yourself.  If you choose not to it is just because it makes more sense. :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on August 24, 2008, 10:36:14 AM
Quote from: considerations on August 24, 2008, 09:40:51 AM


I sort of chickened out on the roof thing.  I figured being up there alone was a little silly for someone who needed to run to "the book" for each step.  :-\

So not, I'm not up on my roof alone.  I hired a guy to help me with the roof.  But what I discovered was I hired him so I could help him.

He kept coming over to help, and this is the sort of work he does, how could I not?  Didn't seem right at some point.  One can overdo leaning on the good will of the neighbors.

Plus, I'm likely to enjoy this place in the winter, rather than staring at a rotting hulk.  And he knows how to install skylights!  I think I would like a couple.



Wise choice. Yes a roof can be framed alone but it's not much fun , and a lot can go wrong fast when you don't have enought hands and feet to hold everything that needs held.

I really like the fact your paying the guy, so many people seem to think cuz I like doing this work so much I don't need payed to just yanno help them out for a lil bit ::) I find myself "busy" a lot, and well I am busy building things for people who want to be fair and pay me. So I really like that fact your paying the guy for his time.  8)

And like you said getting in the dry or at least where you can cover the place pretty well before the 'real' rain starts is a good thing.

I'd bet it's raining at your place right now , as it's clouding up and the breeze is starting for that low that's coming in today.

I should have looked back at your plans in the beginning of this thread , for the roof details. It'll all work out , get a palm nailer , you'll need one for the blocking , but like you said in the dry is the main goal right now.   
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 24, 2008, 12:12:20 PM
Ahhh PEG, thanks for your support.   Your questions keep me assessing the reasons for things.  It is healthy.   c*

I actually am the proud owner of a palm nailer.  I haven't tried it yet, but figured I would need it soon enough.

It started monsooning last night.  I got lucky, it tapered off enough for me to get the horses fed this AM without getting soaked, but it's been coming down hard since 6:30AM.  There was 1/2" of water in the grain bowls at 6AM.

I, however, being the reigning tarp and bungie queen of the neighborhood, crawled up to the loft last night and adjusted the tarps so the water runs away from the sides and interior of the cabin.  So far so good.  The sheets of OSB I tossed in there are dry, only floor at the door openings are wet. 

Depends on how long this keeps up.   Welcome to the NW
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: ScottA on August 24, 2008, 01:06:10 PM
If it's anything like my build it will stop raining as soon as the roof is on.  d*
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on August 24, 2008, 01:17:48 PM
Quote from: ScottA on August 24, 2008, 01:06:10 PM


If it's anything like my build it will stop raining as soon as the roof is on.  d*



That's not likely in her neck of the woods , rain forest's don't grow where it doesn't rain.   
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 25, 2008, 12:22:12 AM
Yehhh its wet, but boy it is pretty. 

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/HohRainForest18.jpg)

There are many beautiful places in this country.  This just happens to be one of my favorites. 

Rain is a sweet thing, as long as you have the options of being in it, or watching it through a nice double paned window.   :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: apaknad on August 25, 2008, 07:50:34 AM
beautiful
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on August 25, 2008, 08:55:10 AM
I'm from a little farther south - Rose Lodge, Oregon - Lincoln City area, and know you have to ask what day of the year it was taken on if you see a picture without rain.  No question it is pretty. :)

Summer usually falls on about July 6th. d*
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Sassy on August 25, 2008, 12:12:33 PM
I lived near Bellingham, WA for 12 years - beautiful country - while I like rain, I couldn't handle that much rain!  There's trade offs everywhere you live - it's just too hot & dry where we're at in California during the summer, our winters aren't too bad, though-especially up here in the mountains - but down in the valley, there can be fog for weeks - bone chilling cold & dreary - I don't like fog at all - especially driving home from work in the middle of the night - I've just about been hit several times when people don't stop at the stop signs out in the country - sometimes I have to drive less than 20 mph with my windows open so I can hear - barely can see one line in front of me - you are literally driving blind! 

BTW, great progress, Considerations!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 25, 2008, 07:30:11 PM
I like rain, at least this rain. We get about 40-50" a year, enough to irrigate all summer if I had a cistern.  It makes for riotous greenery, healthy wildlife and the bestest wild blackberries I've ever eaten. 

Too much further west and I'm afraid I would complain about the rain as well.  Some places on this peninsula get 160".  I'd have to grow gills.

I'm quite happy with just webbed toes.

I lived in SoCal years, but am greatful that "the journey" brought me back to the Northwest.

The good news is that this country of ours, for good or ill, still has wildly varied open spaces left for odd creatures such as us to stake a claim, put some roots down and make our lives the way we want them.



Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Sassy on August 25, 2008, 11:26:39 PM
That's not much more rain than we get here in the mountains - last year we got 50", this year only about 25" which has made for a very dry summer...  plus it didn't rain in March or April, which are usually wet months.  I like the rain - if it would rain & then clear up - right away - make everything clean & fresh, water everything so I don't have to do it by hand  ;)  I do miss everything being green but, as you basically said, there are trade offs with everything.  It is amazing the variety of weather, terrain, plant life etc we have in this country  :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: ScottA on August 26, 2008, 06:12:55 AM
We average about 45" a year here. I always wondered why it's so green here. We must live in a rain forest.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on August 26, 2008, 08:35:07 AM
I guess that a difference would be that the sun doesn't show in Washington to evaporate it all away. d*
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Alasdair on August 26, 2008, 02:38:32 PM
120+ inches per year here on West Coast of Scotland.  If the sun shows here the UFO reports triple ...
We don't recognise each other out of our oilskins and wellies. (No bad weather - only bad clothes....)
If you can see the Isle of Skye its going to rain if you can't it's raining...
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on August 26, 2008, 05:34:25 PM
Quote from: Alasdair on August 26, 2008, 02:38:32 PM

If you can see the Isle of Skye its going to rain if you can't it's raining...

  rofl rofl rofl rofl

Good One!!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 26, 2008, 08:41:25 PM
In spite of all of that....folks....I OSB'd the two weather walls today, and yesterday almost all of the roof.  There's still a couple pieces in scary places the overhang in the front and the back that need doing. 

I have to bite the bullet and order the roof metal.  The quote was half what i thought it would be, delivered, but its the second big $ chunk this month.

Oh Well, between buying building materials, running up and down ladders, pounding nails and feeding the pets and livestock first, this has turned out to be an effective diet and exercise program.   :D




Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on August 26, 2008, 08:56:39 PM
Well, be careful in those scary places.  Once you finish spending the big chunks, you won't have to do it again.  That's cool.

My buddy and his wife are soon headed to Sequim to visit their log cabin there.  He's the truck driver who chased the drunk on the sidewalk with the Peterbilt in Temecula.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on August 26, 2008, 09:00:58 PM
Quote from: considerations on August 26, 2008, 08:41:25 PM
this has turned out to be an effective diet and exercise program.   :D

:)  I know what you mean! Over the summer I have not lost any weight, BUT I've had to punch new holes in my belts in order to keep them from falling off.   Once the cabin is done I'll have to continue clearing tress, splitting wood, etc.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 26, 2008, 09:23:32 PM
"My buddy and his wife are soon headed to Sequim to visit their log cabin there."

Their "log cabin's" kitchen is probably the size of my whole house.  There are lots of humungous ones around.

As far as rain, Scott, I don't think it is nearly so much about how much it rains, as it is about how it rains.  It can drizzle here for a week or two, punctuated by a real shower....and be foggy and overcast for weeks. That's probably what Sassy doesn't like, lots of people don't.

I like it because the ship's horns crank up out in the Straits.  UUUUUUUUuuuuuuuuuuu! (5 or 6 seconds)  UUUUUUUUuuuuuuu! 

Or it can rain steadily for 3 or 4 days, but only total about a 1/2 - 1" of measurable rainfall.

I think maybe in some parts of the US, like Texas and the Southeast there is more of the monsoon stuff...Big clouds come in, dump 4 inches in as many hours, moves on, sun comes out..repeat every couple weeks.

There is a reason there are so many windows in this little cabin.  During the winter I want all the light I can get.   8) (Not to mention the blockhouse effect). 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on August 26, 2008, 09:51:34 PM
Their log cabin is an old family one - as I remember it was built right on the ground with no foundation and they had some interesting repairs to do.  I haven't been there.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 27, 2008, 01:25:58 AM
"Their log cabin is an old family one - as I remember it was built right on the ground with no foundation and they had some interesting repairs to do. "

Good! I like that kind better, and generally have a greater affinity for the people that love them.  Some of them have planks that are 16 or 18 inches wide and 5 and 6" thick with dovetailed corners..  This is still logging country. 

Log trucks are why I haven't yet ridden my horse to the store.  A bit much for him just yet.  [shocked] There is a 1/2 mile stretch for which I can find no detour. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on August 27, 2008, 02:36:50 AM
Yup - log trucks can get smashy on corners.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Woodswalker on August 27, 2008, 09:21:24 AM
A couple years back a log truck lost its load rounding a curve on a major highway out on the Olympic Peninsula, killing two U of W researchers on their way to check some instrumentation they had going out there.  The driver and owner were prosecuted, as I recall, because the load was not adequately secured and the truck was going too fast.  I try to stay clear of all those 18 wheelers on the highway, especially on I-5.

Once you finish your current project, you'll have to start a garage/guest house/ or cabin to keep that exercise program going.  Five years ago I took in an 8 mo. Husky-mix who's owners could not be located, and promptly lost 10 lbs in the first two months.  We still walk several miles/day.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 27, 2008, 02:16:48 PM
yep, I want better shelter for the horses, better hay storage, another tool shed, a root cellar, a summer kitchen, a spring house, a studio, a library, a green house and and and.........whoops, whow there!

Better back off on the coffee.  c*



Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on August 27, 2008, 02:23:55 PM
CF is the land next to yours for sale.  At that rate you will need another "south fourty".  If you really plan ahead alot of what you are going to do can be combined to lessen the footprints.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 27, 2008, 02:36:15 PM
Ok, This is for those of you who are exploring this site, trying to figure out if you can afford to choose a similar path by building your own place.  This is one question I always had hoped to find an answer to before I started on this project.

Here is the "score card" for expenses so far.   Only now do I realize how variable the the issues can be that drive expenses.  

This is the 14 x 24 plan, just the rectangle with a loft and 10' stud walls. No fancy (or simple) additions.

The box is up, the roof is OSB'd, mostly (there's enough here to finish that up). The metal roof is paid for and so is about 1/2 the insulation.  So, materials and labor so far  $10K.  That's not a brag by any means.

No plumbing, no wiring, no windows....no doors.....no steps or decks.  Just the box.

It could have been less if I had not been stubborn about a 2 x 6 T&G 1st floor and went with the usual stuff.  It could have been less if I'd used 2 x 4 instead of 2 x 6 stud walls.  And it could have been less if I'd chosen fiberglass insulation in rolls instead of Roxul insulation. And maybe it would have been less if I hadn't decided to build the post and pier tall enough to get the 1st floor about 50" off the ground.

Its hardly a number to make a bet on, but if more of us can share this type of info, it may be of help to the ones who are still deciding whether or not to "take the plunge".  :D


Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 27, 2008, 02:38:57 PM
"CF is the land next to yours for sale."

Yes, funny you should mention that.

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 27, 2008, 02:52:17 PM
"I try to stay clear of all those 18 wheelers on the highway, especially on I-5"

Staying clear of a large rig in motion is a very wise choice, there is only so much a driver can do.

I worked in the steel industry for 25 years, and what I learned was that most drivers are decent, careful and far more skillful drivers than the usual auto pilot (was that a freudian slip?).  Losing a commercial driver's license usually means the end of a career.

I also learned that an 80 thousand pound projectile is impossible to stop on a dime, no trucker wants to be unceremoniously launched through the windshield of a big rig, and cars that swerve suddenly right in front of a big rig, or follow so closely that they cannot be seen in the rear view mirrors of a semi are some of the biggest and most common hazards a trucker faces.

I've also recently learned that jake brakes are simply more than the nervous system of most horses can bear.  Fortunately, I was a spectator for that lesson.

Did I say that right Glenn?
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on August 27, 2008, 03:05:23 PM
A lot of "if's" in the cost post.  "If a toad had wings he wouldn't bump his but".  But if you had to do over again would you.  Of course you would.  It's not the destination but journey that is the reward.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on August 27, 2008, 03:13:58 PM
You have that right, considerations.

Also -- the driver is somewhat of a god up there in there in the front of that 80000 lbs of steel.  If you are stupid and try to push him over as you merge in beside him or her, and he has to choose between smashing a car or two legally on his left or you merging into the side of him on his right without looking, you will likely lose.  He can't help that and won't kill someone else who is obvioussly smarter than you are.

If you are a guy sitting in the right seat of the car that illegally tried to merge then slammed on the brakes and went around the big truck (the guy in the right seat while the little lady drives the car) it would be wise if you didn't flip the bird to the driver.  

These trucks are capable of over 80 miles an hour and the driver may just decide to pull out behind you and chase you down the road as you crap your pants in the seat of your car and after 20 miles or so you may have to have the little lady take evasive manuevers to lose him.  If all you can see are the bugs on his front bumper then he is likely pretty close and may not realize you are down below his radiator cap.  Don't ask me how I know this.

You will find though that if you treat them courteously truck drivers will generally do all they can to save your bacon.

What do you think, considerations? hmm  I know you had to be nicer than me.  

I always turned the jake off for horses and even pull my foot out of the turbo on my straight pipe Dodge unless they rub me the wrong way -- or are a biker forcing me into oncoming traffic on a corner.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: ScottA on August 27, 2008, 05:29:08 PM
There was a movie a few years back where a mad trucker was chasing someone down. Can't recall the title now.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on August 27, 2008, 05:34:04 PM
Duel?? 


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duel_(movie)


(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d4/Duel_poster.jpg)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 27, 2008, 05:48:41 PM
Yikes Glenn, you're scary.  Road rage on steroids.  Dont ask me how I know that. rofl 

Redoverfarm, sure there are lots of ifs....cause I knew what I knew, I knew what I didn't know, and I don't know what I don't know.....more to follow on that.

Mostly I just want pilgrims like me, who are not quite as far along in the process, or still thinking about it, to have something, anything, that relates the possible costs. 

That was a dilema for me, I can't be the only one who spent a long time scratching their heads about that issue. 

By the way, what does Redoverfarm mean, exactly? I've been courious about this for awhile, but it keeps slipping my mind when I'm on the site. 

I find the history of words fascinating, this is a sincere question.

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Sassy on August 27, 2008, 10:54:59 PM
I was wondering that myself, never thought to ask...

Just happened to see that movie on my computer a few months back - had never seen it before - it was kinda dumb in a way, but really kept your attention - the suspense & wondering, what in the world?  But is guess I shouldn't have questioned that, knowing Glenn  rofl
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on August 27, 2008, 11:39:57 PM
I'm normally a very nice courteous driver always putting the other persons thoughts, needs and desires first. ::)

It's always nice when people will share pricing information and comments.  Good girl, considerations. :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on August 28, 2008, 12:19:57 AM
QuoteRoad rage on steroids.  Dont ask me how I know that.

Considerations, are you saying you had ......

.... an event? hmm
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 28, 2008, 09:02:19 AM
No, thank heavens. I was just "quipping" your quote.  I was never faced with having to make the type of choices you describe, although I got good and scared a few times when little cars would do silly things.

Working for so long in an industrial area, I saw lots of clear examples of the outcome of cars and trucks attempting to occupy the same space at the same time. It never worked well. Taught me real respect.

The worst thing that ever happened to me while driving was the white knuckle lesson about getting a load of swinging beef around a clover leaf.  It was a little different than boxes of frozen meat.   [shocked] It turned out ok. 

It's still raining.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on August 28, 2008, 09:58:07 AM
That could almost put you on two wheels with that high moving CG.

You really have to handle that swinging meat with care --- know what you are doing and be good at it. :)

I flopped my Pete and loaded 45 foot reefer on its side in an ice storm to keep from running over 3 carloads of people.  They were  parked in the road around a corner looking at another wrecked 18 wheeler. 

I was almost stopped but couldn't keep from running over them so tried to go around, slid into the ditch and flopped on the left side. 

The 3 cars took off - left the scene.  The road was clear and there was no reason for them to be stopped except sight seeing.

The only help I got right away was the lady that was helping with the other wreck.  She also watched them all split the scene.  I climbed out the miising windshield. 

It was an interesting slow motion twisting action as I watched the rear end of the reefer start twisting to the left in my mirror, then it was like two giant hands wringing out a cloth as the rest just twisted and followed with me and the tractor being the last to just flop and slam to the ground. 

The rig only slid a few feet as I was going so slow.  The ice was nearly too slippery to stand on as it was just beginning to thaw on top. Winter of 1983 South of Bend, Oregon.

Frozen corn on the cob, anybody?

I hope your rain stops so you can get after it. :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 28, 2008, 11:54:21 AM
"That could almost put you on two wheels with that high moving CG."

"almost" would have been better, but we didn't go over. I was young, inexperienced, and tired from driving all night.  Getting that load onto and down the highway was entirely different than getting off.
Gotta remember about that top rack.  I'm sure I didn't drive long enough to ever really become experienced, I was just lucky. 

I bet you have thousands of stories.  I haven't talked about this in years.  An almost forgotten chapter.

I lived in Portland, Oregon in 1983. We had some world class freezing rain and ice storms. I don't remember what year it was but on a trip from Portland to Bend over Christmas on Highway 26 (the shoulder of Mt Hood), we got snarled in a highway closure because a truck had slid through the guard rail and partly off the highway.  The cab was hanging out over the canyon amidst the tree tops. Pretty spectacular. Good thing he was loaded. 

I have to go pound nails now.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on September 08, 2008, 12:53:09 AM
the box has a lid, mostly
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/20080906017.jpg)

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/20080906012.jpg)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on September 08, 2008, 03:24:03 AM
Quote from: considerations on August 28, 2008, 11:54:21 AM
"That could almost put you on two wheels with that high moving CG."

"almost" would have been better, but we didn't go over. I was young, inexperienced, and tired from driving all night.  Getting that load onto and down the highway was entirely different than getting off.
Gotta remember about that top rack.  I'm sure I didn't drive long enough to ever really become experienced, I was just lucky. 

I bet you have thousands of stories.  I haven't talked about this in years.  An almost forgotten chapter.

I lived in Portland, Oregon in 1983. We had some world class freezing rain and ice storms. I don't remember what year it was but on a trip from Portland to Bend over Christmas on Highway 26 (the shoulder of Mt Hood), we got snarled in a highway closure because a truck had slid through the guard rail and partly off the highway.  The cab was hanging out over the canyon amidst the tree tops. Pretty spectacular. Good thing he was loaded. 

I have to go pound nails now.


Sorry - somehow I missed this.  Sounds like that was plenty of excitement for one day.  I talked with a swinging meat hauler on a trip to Texas.  Other drivers just tried to get away from me. :) d*  (I was sometimes a bit obnoxious.)

I do have lots of stories....I'm full of BS. [crz]

1983 was the year I flopped mine - South of Bend - North of Lone Pine.  Plenty of Ice.

Progress is good.  Still sleeping out  there?-- looks good but wet.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on September 08, 2008, 06:24:40 AM
Way to go.  The rain will not stop you now. Wish I had some of your rain here.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Woodswalker on September 08, 2008, 08:46:55 AM
Sept is a good month to be getting a roof on a new place in W-WA.  I've been impressed with the great progress you've made this summer.  Stay safe working on that roof, so you don't get delayed getting it cozy for the winter. We know the rains are coming soon.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on September 08, 2008, 09:52:30 AM
I'm afraid I don't get much DIY credit for the roof.  Mostly just passing out money and holding ladders, and recharging the compressor, cutting OSB, and handing up pieces and nails, etc.

The roof metal is here, and the roof guy is bringing a buddy today. (Those young guys are a lot faster than I am).  I expect it will be on this week. 

This is good, even though I secretly chafe at just being ground logistics and support, I'd rather be handing stuff up and getting it done than walking the ridge or "rappelling" the slope, or taking too long and getting caught by the rainy season. 

The practicality of getting the roof on has to override the possessive part of my DIY spirit, in this instance.   :(

Suffice it to say, I'm grateful for a solution.  All it took was money.   

The view is awesome from the loft. Can't see the ocean, but it sort of puts you up in the trees.

It was worth struggling with that tall post and pier foundation.  And, I'm very happy with the compromise of a 7.5' ceiling, rather than 7' or 8'.  I don't feel like I have to duck on the first floor, and yet I got that extra 6" of wall in the loft.  There is more walking around room up there than I thought I would have. 

So, all things considered, it's pretty exciting. I finally decided to stick a couple skylights in, since these guys will do the deed for me. 

I can hardly wait to start camping in the shell.   c*
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Woodswalker on September 08, 2008, 10:52:22 AM
Ground support is every bit as important as being up on the slope.  Getting a nice metal roof on quick is well worth the expenditure, considering the time of year and location.  Glad to hear you've decided on a couple of skylights.  They're not very practical where I'm from (MN), due to extreme winter temps, but make lots of sense here.  I only have one, and will add another when I redo the roof next summer.  If you heat with wood, the energy loss is not a big issue - just cut & split some more rounds.  You're doing good.  Look forward to more pics.

Steve
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: John Raabe on September 08, 2008, 11:07:20 AM
Snug project, Considerations. Hope you are enjoying the sunny WA weather.

(I was in Port Townsend yesterday for the wooden boat festival)

(https://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/jraabe/fest-1.jpg)

Lady Washington

(https://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/jraabe/fest-2.jpg)

Traffic jam

(https://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/jraabe/fest-3.jpg)

That's my boat - the one carrying the cars.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Sassy on September 08, 2008, 12:18:09 PM
Considerations - wow, great progress!  I'm usually the gofer for Glenn - I'd rather make things easier for him to get the work done...  using your time & talents wisely by paying someone to do the roof is the way to go...  you've already proven you can do it by what you've accomplished!  How exciting  c*

BTW, John, great pictures!  I love looking at the ocean, boats, scenery in Washington - wouldn't mind visiting from time to time but I guess my 12 yrs of living up there was enough for me - although right now I could stand some cool, wet weather!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on September 09, 2008, 01:17:27 AM
Gotta take those blue sky pix when you can, John.

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on September 10, 2008, 12:48:27 AM
Meanwhile, back at the ranch....Mom was a little late with supper.  Take a look at Mr. Buckethead's feet.  The message could not be more clear.

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/20080909001.jpg)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on September 10, 2008, 10:00:00 AM
rofl ... probably listens to Primus too.

(Buckethead plays with Primus sometimes.)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: deedonke2 on September 10, 2008, 10:54:34 PM
 [cool]way of getting his point across but now he has to eat out of his feed bucket.been dropping in on your sight,and have to cogradulate you on job well done and the timely manner your doing it in.getherdone as the say.good luck!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on September 10, 2008, 11:26:40 PM
Wow, thanks...I'm champing at my own bit to get more done...the sun is shining and saying the "R" word is verbotten around here for the moment. 

1/2 the metal is on the roof...but no work tomorrow.  The boys will be back on Friday to do that.  My job is to get skylights and Tyvek....yep sorry guys, Tyvek is the Rx strongly recommended by "the boys" for the outside walls.  They say it will get me through winter and I can spend money in the inside that way and make things marginally habitable.   I've read all the discussions re: felt paper and rain screens, etc. and looked at lots of pics on this site with Tyvek and probable equivalents in them....should be ok.

I do so want out of this 5th wheel, so I'm doing it. 

Yep, that and a few doors and windows, a flashlight and a wood stove..ummm and a chamber pot..Viola!  Instant home!  8)  (if you can call May to September "instant")

Mister Buckethead is probably one of the gentlest creatures I've had the pleasure of caring for.  And he can be really goofy.. However, he does not care about eating out of the bowl after having put his feet in it...And I won't tell you what that old mare does to the hay after it's been on the ground a few hours....there are some things about horses I will probably never understand.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on September 10, 2008, 11:32:06 PM
At least you can make an informed decision, Considerations. 

Horses and I get along OK as long as both of us are on the ground. ::)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on September 16, 2008, 01:05:47 AM
I got short sheeted!   We're gliding along, I pull roofing sheets off the pile and hand them up to the guy on the scaffold who slides theem into place while the guy on the ridge gets them lined up and they screw them down while i go get another sheet....we're halfway down the roof, things are going well, and I picked up the last sheet.  What!?  Yep, the roofing folks sent me 16 out of 20.  Kind of took the wind out of our sails. 

I called the building supply store who promptly asked me if I'd double sheeted any where (sure)...anyway, I guess they'll get back to me tomorrow.   We started framing the gable ends.  grrrrr..... >:(
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on September 16, 2008, 01:22:12 AM
d* I hate it when that happens. [crz]
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on September 16, 2008, 07:16:43 PM
Yeah, me too, they are going to finish filling the order however.  That's the good news.

It's OK to insulate the floor now right?  I need to get that pile out from under tarps and where it belongs as soon as possible.  Who knows whats crawling around in there by now.  [scared]

That should keep me good and dirty and sore for a few days.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on September 16, 2008, 07:34:12 PM
Quote from: considerations on September 16, 2008, 07:16:43 PM



It's OK to insulate the floor now right? 


Thats a depends answer.

   1: Yes, IF your not running any wires , plumbing , heating , or other items under the floor.

  #2: Do you need to get a framing inspection? If yes , then no do not insulate.

So really it depends. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on September 16, 2008, 08:17:37 PM
Thanks for the voice of reason PEG, (read "darn!").  There are plumbing and wiring considerations. 
I'll think about where they have to go and see if I can work around them at all or just put it off entirely.

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on September 16, 2008, 08:21:36 PM
considerations if you are worried about the present storage location there would be nothing wrong with stowing them under the foundation to keep them dry until you can get ready to install them.  But be careful about using this storage location as alot of other things will find their way under there as well. ;D
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on September 16, 2008, 08:31:18 PM
Quote from: considerations on September 16, 2008, 08:17:37 PM


Thanks for the voice of reason PEG, (read "darn!").  There are plumbing and wiring considerations. 
I'll think about where they have to go and see if I can work around them at all or just put it off entirely.



Sequence , sequence , sequence. Red's idea of using it (under floor) for storage may help you out.   
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on September 16, 2008, 09:43:23 PM
Can I ask what your plans are for keeping critters out of the insulation? Some. like mice, are not at all bothered by the fiberglass and love to burrow in for a nice warm place to raise families.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on September 16, 2008, 10:53:45 PM
One I am working on now - crawlspace - concrete block perimeter footing - insulated floor with no protection - insulation even in there is about 1/3 pulled down by raccoons - dogs - critters etc.  It did have wire strung under it every foot or so.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on September 16, 2008, 11:13:25 PM
Quote from: glenn kangiser on September 16, 2008, 10:53:45 PM
  It did have wire strung under it every foot or so.

The wires just give the mice something to practice their high wire abilities on.   ;D

We've decided to on a three part system

1. On the inside edge of the beams there will be a section of 12 inch wide 1/4" hardware cloth, bent to an L shape with a four inch and an 8 inch arm. The four inch arm will be nailed to the beam, the 8 inch will be up against the bottom of the floor joists.

2. Cover the underside between the beams with 3/8" plywood sheets leaving about 4 to 6 inches of the hardware cloth uncovered. Seams will be caulked and perhaps covered with batten boards. Areas under the plumbing, gas pipes, wiring that passes though the floor will have panels sized appropriately and ecured with screws to facilitate access if necessary.

3. The area from the outside edge of the beam to the rim joist will be covered in with solid 1x material. Seams and joints will be caulked. I decided to use solid lumber over anything else as there will be some splash up from rain if we finally decide to leave the cabin unskirted.

And I'm likely going to hire my out of work carpenters/roofers/handymen to do it. I don't lie the idea of crawling, laying on my back under the cabin anymore than I liked the idea of roof walking on metal.   :D
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on September 16, 2008, 11:27:24 PM
(https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/haterhwmmeeces.jpg)

"I hate them meeces to pieces."
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on September 17, 2008, 12:24:36 AM
I'm planning on this:

1 I have 2 x 6 T&G flooring (done) and liquid nailed to the floor joists as well as nailed (no squeaking)

2 Roxul R 22 (rock wool) batts

3 bird netting stapled to the floor joists to hold the batting against the flooring

4 Air space

5 1/4" hardware cloth "stapled" to the bottom of the floor joists and "sewn" together with wire, because it comes in 3' rolls and the joists are 24" apart.

Thought that would keep the critters out and the insulation in place.

The bottom of the floor is about 50" off the ground.  (gives me room to snake around the cross bracing)

Then a moisture barrier on the ground and the skirting is still a matter of lively debate, but there will be some, with the requisite access and venting.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on September 17, 2008, 12:27:21 AM
...sounds good to me   :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on September 17, 2008, 12:44:29 AM
I think you are doing a great job, Considerations....and I didn't even say....for a girl. ::)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on September 17, 2008, 05:21:49 AM
Sounds like a  plan.  ;)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on September 17, 2008, 08:33:44 AM
Quote from: considerations on September 17, 2008, 12:24:36 AM
I'm planning on this:



5 1/4" hardware cloth "stapled" to the bottom of the floor joists and "sewn" together with wire, because it comes in 3' rolls and the joists are 24" apart.



How about running a 1x4 utility strapping 90 deg. to the joist on 3' centers , staple the hardware cloth to the 1x3's with a framing stapler like a M-30 Senco gun.

That would #1: Fasten it well to keep the mice out , #2: Allow another breathing space between the wire and the insulation.   


Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: apaknad on September 17, 2008, 09:16:54 AM
glen... you are somethin' else. everytime i am scrolling through the forum to catch up from the previous day i get suprised by some avatar, blurb, characterization, cartoon, etc. and i know w/o even looking at who wrote it that it is the trogladyte. thanx, keep up the good work ;)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on September 17, 2008, 10:10:06 AM
Thanks, Dan ....I can't help it.  I'm crazy.     [panic]
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on September 17, 2008, 10:46:40 AM
"running a 1x4 utility strapping 90 deg. to the joist on 3' centers , staple the hardware cloth to the 1x3's with a framing stapler like a M-30 Senco gun"

I think I "get" this.

Running the "strapping": would they be wood so the staples would go in? 

If the 1 x 4 and the 1 x 3 are the same thing and made of wood it sounds easier than sewing the hardware cloth strips together with wire. 

Sorry if I'm being dense.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on September 17, 2008, 11:36:13 AM
stapping or furring strip. Cheap utility grade lumber. Much easier than sewing/weaving.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on September 17, 2008, 02:37:02 PM
Quote from: considerations on September 17, 2008, 10:46:40 AM
"running a 1x4 utility strapping 90 deg. to the joist on 3' centers , staple the hardware cloth to the 1x3's with a framing stapler like a M-30 Senco gun"

I think I "get" this.

Running the "strapping": would they be wood so the staples would go in? 

If the 1 x 4 and the 1 x 3 are the same thing and made of wood it sounds easier than sewing the hardware cloth strips together with wire. 

Sorry if I'm being dense.

I shouldn't have switched sizes , sorry. But yes 1x3's or 4's net 3/4 X  2 1/2" or 3/4" x 3 1/2"  cheap grade ( utility) nailed or gun stapled to the joist bottoms , when the hardware cloth stapled to the 1 bys. Way easier then sewing the cloth together in the crawl space.     
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on September 17, 2008, 10:53:16 PM
Splendid!  Thanks for the big timesaving tip.  I'm using it!  :D
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on September 17, 2008, 11:10:26 PM
Quote from: considerations on September 17, 2008, 10:53:16 PM


Splendid!  Thanks for the big timesaving tip.  I'm using it!  :D



Happy to help out.

Did you wrap up the roof yet? Or are you still waiting for the delivery of the missing pieces?

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on September 18, 2008, 07:52:26 AM
Still waiting for the missing roof metal, but it should be available to pick up today.

There are 16 out of 20 sheets up, and one 10' piece of ridge cap on and the mother of all tarps is still pressed into service. 

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on September 18, 2008, 10:00:13 AM
It'll be a great day when you can finally get that mother off of the roof. ::)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on September 18, 2008, 06:15:55 PM
Frankly, at that point, I'm not sure what I will use that tarp for. Its 20 x 30, and I'd rather move it only a few more times.  Maybe put it over that creaky old barn for this winter.  Might help control the pond that forms in there every year. 

The old barn is beyond saving, but I still store things in there, as I'm as short on storage as I am on a house.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on September 18, 2008, 10:26:33 PM
Sounds like a plan. :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on September 23, 2008, 03:20:44 PM
Tada!

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/20080923003.jpg)
But wait, there's MORE.....

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/20080923002.jpg)
Don't touch that dial!

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/20080923001.jpg)
:D  Simple pleasures for simple people.  It rains tonight.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: ScottA on September 23, 2008, 04:34:52 PM
Awsome! Now it can rain all it wants.  :D
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on September 23, 2008, 04:42:50 PM
Yahoo! Looking good!!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on September 23, 2008, 06:12:29 PM
Looking more like a home everyday.  Great work.  What is the color of the metal? Looks grey in the picture.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on September 23, 2008, 11:40:39 PM
I think it is gray -- also know as PNW camouflage. [crz]
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on September 24, 2008, 12:06:22 AM
Good guess, its grey.  All of the other roofs are galvanized (grey). It doesn't stick out.  I looked at the other colors, but the green doesn't look real compared to the greens of the forest. I could go on, but grey was what I chose. 

And....its raining (she noted smugly).   

Now I'm insulating the floor.  That's a fine little job.  I'm just glad I'm not dealing with an 18" crawl space.  I've got plenty of company under there and like being able to maneuver a little.   
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on September 24, 2008, 12:18:15 AM
Good grief, Considerations.  Who have you got under the house? hmm
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on September 24, 2008, 01:04:52 AM
Not WHO, what.   d*  Bugs, moths, but spiders mostly, looking for places to make their egg cases.   Flushed a garter snake a few days ago.

It's shelter, and I don't mind too much, but I like to have some control about how close an encounter is going to be.   

I don't like spiders in my hair, and prefer to be alone inside my clothes. 

The dust underneath and the rockwool rain while trying to staple overhead is distraction enough. 

It's really raining now.....(giggle)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on September 24, 2008, 01:22:01 AM
I'll bet you are really happy to have that roof on there.  Good Job.

I was just thinking if I was under a house like that, my dogs would want to get under there too and give me a big ol' sloppy kiss when I was at their level...and that is not nice because I've seen what they eat.  [crz]

Seems we have a difference of opinion on the correct spelling of grey or gray

gray 1 also grey  (gr)
adj. gray·er also grey·er, gray·est also grey·est
1. Of or relating to an achromatic color of any lightness between the extremes of black and white.

It also noted Chiefly US---- Grey ---  So confusing but both are right.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on September 24, 2008, 09:05:52 AM
Yes I'm REALLY HAPPY to have that roof on.  c* 

There are pack of dogs out here, I think there may be more dogs than people on this road, so I don't feel the need to have one.  My old cat has a fairly strong opinion about the issue, and I will honor that until he isn't around anymore.

The electric fence is discouraging to dogs just wandering over, but they visit regularly with their owners.  I turn the fence off when I get visitors because I don't have gates in every spot where folks come through the woods.  The dogs, when with their owners will brave scooting under the wire.  And yes, they all love to kiss me, sort of a dubious distinction, like you said.

You are absolutely right, Grey is used where UK English predominates and Gray is the preferred spelling where American English is the norm.

I read a lot and see it both ways.  For some reason, on the Olympic Peninsula, we seem to use grey. We have a Greywolf Elementary School, etc.  I didn't give it a second thought. 

There are places in Virginia where the old "landed gentry" families speak with an accent that has remnants of Elizabethan English, and there you also see the spelling Grey. 

I ran into them in some of the local museums. The volunteers were descendants of the original British land grant families.  I was expecting the stereotypical "southern drawl".  So wrong. There are even jails where the word is spelled 'gaol'. 

English is a fascinating language, every rule has an exception.  I do not envy those who have to learn it as a second language.


Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: apaknad on September 24, 2008, 09:17:46 AM
con,

a work of art, congratulations. [cool]
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on September 24, 2008, 11:56:27 AM
Gee thanks, the relief is palpable.  It is almost a monsoon out there right now.     



Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on September 24, 2008, 05:02:15 PM
Would that make me a English predominatesor an old "landed gentry" ?

Oh yes about the electric fence. Ask my wife.  She was helping me mow with the push mower while I was on the lazy thing riding.  I looked in the corner of the rail fence where it meets the electric.  She got in the corner and swung the handle against you guessed it.  I first thought she had gotten into a yellow jacket nest as she was standing in the driveway some 15 feet away from the mower shaking her arms.  I went over and she told me what she had done.  Yes the mower was still running and yes she quit.  Hasn't mowed a lick since then.  Sort of like a rabbit dog once bitten by a fence you might as well sell it because it aint gonna run no more.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on September 24, 2008, 08:16:31 PM
Would that make me a English predominatesor an old "landed gentry" ?  

Well, I won't call you "old".....(I don't even call myself that). I saw those satellite photos, you are definitely landed gentry. But, being one of the great unwashed, I won't call you a name that I don't know the meaning of..... ???  Thought provoking though, could be a good name for a movie.

My current ( ::)) electric fence is pretty potent.  I started with a little solar charger, probably meant for small pets, and thin wire.  It was great the first summer, then winter came and the blankets went on the horses.  Hmmm, no sun, thin wire, blanket on the horses....not effective, at all. After the second roundup, I made an investment.

Now I have big wire, and a charger that will run 15 miles if I had that much fence.  Goes right through a  blanket, or jacket.  I have to keep the batteries charged with the gen in the winter, but it will make your jaw tight for about 30 minutes after unplanned contact.  Keeps the horses in and the bears out, so far.  I don't know how the cougars manage electric fences, I've only seen prints on my side. They are so stealthy.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on September 24, 2008, 08:32:16 PM
Quote from: considerations on September 24, 2008, 08:16:31 PM
They are so stealthy.

When you start seeing them you may be in trouble.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Sassy on September 25, 2008, 01:18:30 PM
You are amazing, Considerations!  Wow, what great progress, bet you are so excited about it - so you'll be able to camp out there now during the winter & keep working on the place...  that's what we did in the underground cabin...  had an 8x12 ft area with a homemade bed, wood stove & plastic walls  ;D  to start out with - got a lot of exercise hiking to the outhouse that was quite a ways out...  but even that was an upgrade from the "porta potty", lol...  and we had a wonderful view to boot! 

Looking forward to see your continued progress - impressive!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on September 25, 2008, 03:16:51 PM
Thanks, not amazing though, just really really really stubborn.   [frus]  One foot in front of the other.

I can appreciate the enthusiasum to upgrade from a portapotty.

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/DSCF0007.jpg)

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: John_C on September 25, 2008, 04:25:43 PM
Superb progress Considerations but you need to trade that Porta-Potty in on a pink version..

the "Good Lady"  model    ;D
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on September 25, 2008, 05:22:26 PM
Pink?   rofl   Screaming turquoise is bad enough.  Anyway, it would just advertise that a single woman lives here alone. No self respecting male would allow a Pink  n*  honey bucket on their property.

I'm holding out for a composting toilet.  Stubborn....really.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on September 26, 2008, 10:06:06 PM
Quoteto the outhouse that was quite a ways out...  but even that was an upgrade from the "porta potty", lol.

It was really cool.  The first generation model had no walls - just a nice 18"x24" by 48" box with a single hole and a floor on the mountain ridge overlooking my subjects in the valley below.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on September 28, 2008, 01:31:51 PM
Ok, I get it...the visible pink color didn't come from the walls.   :D
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on September 28, 2008, 01:38:03 PM
I mooned Sassy, thinking I was being smart, and in like ..about 2 minutes the old California Overnight deliver man arrived with a parcel.  :-[

I don't think he saw me.

RE -the color --- pink must have been the face cheeks because Sassy said the other cheeks were pasty white.  [crz]
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Sassy on September 28, 2008, 01:43:22 PM
Quote from: glenn kangiser on September 28, 2008, 01:38:03 PM
I mooned Sassy, thinking I was being smart, and in like ..about 2 minutes the old California Overnight deliver man arrived with a parcel.  :-[

I don't think he saw me.

RE -the color --- pink must have been the face cheeks because Sassy said the other cheeks were pasty white.  [crz]

Glenn's just trying to save face stating it was 2 minutes - he mooned me & then I turned around & there was the California Overnight man...  I think he saw Glenn but was too polite, ahem, shocked   [scared]:o , to say anything  rofl
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on September 28, 2008, 01:48:31 PM
 :-[ :-[    :(        dontlook    [panic]         gottogo      [ouch]
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on September 28, 2008, 02:02:39 PM
Quote from: Sassy on September 28, 2008, 01:43:22 PM

Glenn's just trying to save face stating it was 2 minutes - he mooned me & then I turned around & there was the California Overnight man...  I think he saw Glenn but was too polite, ahem, shocked   [scared]:o , to say anything  rofl



Humm sort of like what working around Fred is like  :o  d* The poor Overnite guy , he's MTL suffering some sort of PTSD  rofl
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on September 28, 2008, 02:05:11 PM
He has  since had to retire.....due to old age.... I'm sure.....d*
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on September 28, 2008, 02:40:49 PM
Quote from: glenn kangiser on September 28, 2008, 02:05:11 PM


He has  since had to retire.....due to old age.... I'm sure.....d*



Shock or trauma I'd say  rofl
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on September 28, 2008, 02:42:42 PM
Glenn if he retired I am sure that he has probably seen worse in his deliveries.  You probably didn't make that much of an impression on him.  Now the opposite sex would have priobably sent him out with a disability retirement. ;D
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on September 28, 2008, 02:51:00 PM
PEG..... heh

Yeah ....poor old fella.....  I don't have too much doubt the he was past being safe on the road, but he really was a very nice old guy...actually had us over for dinner one time at his house..

Come to think of it ....it was after the.....incident.....so I guess I didn't permanently damage him.  :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on September 29, 2008, 12:49:32 PM
Life is stranger than fiction.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on September 29, 2008, 09:54:56 PM
Quote from: considerations on September 29, 2008, 12:49:32 PM


Life is stranger than fiction.



I thought it was a box of chocolates  ???
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on September 30, 2008, 12:53:23 AM
...you never know what you're gonna get... [crz]
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on September 30, 2008, 12:55:45 AM
Some days all you get is    Crape Diem    and maybe on the wrong end...    :-\

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on September 30, 2008, 10:49:37 AM
I have this great big coil of wire..It is covered in "white" plastic and has "Anaconda W Dutrax Type NM 10/2 with Ground 600 volts" printed on it.  There are 3 insulated wires inside.

Can I use it wiring the house? 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: phalynx on September 30, 2008, 10:52:46 AM
NM is romex.  10/2 is designed to carry 30 amps of 110V electrical.  I am not sure what you would use it for.  Not too many requirements for 30 amp 110.  It could be used for 220V but you would lose your dedicated ground... 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: John_C on September 30, 2008, 11:27:32 AM
Well, if you have it and it's free I say use it.  You wouldn't IMO be violating any codes. Just keep in mind that if you use 20A receptacles you should use 20A breakers.

The 10 ga is more expensive than 12 ga so you might find some takers for a swap.  You should be able to swap it for a larger roll or 12 ga. 

Off the top of my head 10 ga would be acceptable for a dryer and for some wall mount overs.  It's too light for most water heaters and ranges.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on September 30, 2008, 11:41:24 AM
Is it copper? If so it may be worth more to you if you sell it for the copper value. Or maybe barter for something you can use.

10 gauge copper could be used for 15 and 20 amp lines but not advisable because it is so stiff and difficult to work with.

15 amp circuits generally use 14 gauge copper; 20 amp circuits 12 gauge.

The first number is the wire gauge (14, 12, 10), the second is the number of conductors (2 or 3 generally). There is usually a white and a black that are used to actually transmit the power, plus a bare, or in some cables a green insulated wire, that is the ground. White is the neutral and black the so called hot.

Using it for 220 VAC would not meet the electrical code.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on September 30, 2008, 11:44:31 AM
As don said - it would really be hard to get into the boxes possibly breaking recepticals as you try to force it in.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on September 30, 2008, 11:47:30 AM
I'm using some 10 gauge on some DC lines. For them I'm transitioning to 12 gauge in the boxes using flexible pigtails. 10 gauge is a bear to work with. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on September 30, 2008, 11:51:24 AM
When I helped my uncle remodel the old homestead we used flexible pig tails.  Much easier with heavy or lots of wire.  Twist the group together with wire nuts is todays accepted method. 

As I recall, we also soldered per his spec.  No wires coming loose there.  I am still a believer in a good mechanical plus a soldered connection but I never do it any more -- just twist the nuts.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on September 30, 2008, 12:06:06 PM
I more often than not use a large box even if it's not necessary because it gives more working room. You'll never be red tagged for too large a box but if you go over the limit with too much in the box for its size you will. If you're being inspected.

Are you having help or farming out the electrical, considerations?
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on September 30, 2008, 01:26:14 PM
"Are you having help or farming out the electrical"

Good question.  As I cram insulation under the floor, I'm thinking about it.  I'm a waste not, want not sort of person.  I thought that wire was pretty skookum for the house, but being a real expert  rofl  with electric fences, I learned that bigger is better when it comes to wire. 

The good news about this forum is you can ask a question like I did and get answers without cutting a check or watching someone roll their eyes. 

Almost a whole box of the stuff was in my Dad's barn when I cleaned it out.  I brought it along just in case. I've used a little, for silly stuff, like hooking the charger to the fence, but the cabin application is a little more critical... So, basically, it's bulky overkill for the regular wiring but not ok for high loads like electric dryers and ranges?  Neither of which I'm planning on, but it might be good to wire for them in case it ever becomes a possibility.

And when you are talking about a "large box", do you mean the box behind the wall that a receptacle cover goes over?

flexible pig tails...I thought they all were.   ;D


Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on September 30, 2008, 01:53:53 PM
Yup on the boxes - some are bigger - even extensions available.

I try to stay away from pig tails so can't help you there. ::)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on September 30, 2008, 03:00:36 PM
Not really that much bigger only deeper.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on September 30, 2008, 06:31:28 PM
On commercial boxes you can get a single cover for a double box I seem to recall, but that would not usually be req'd for a house if planned right.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on September 30, 2008, 06:41:29 PM
Thanks red (John) I meant deeper... they have more volume = more wires.

Electric dryers and ranges require 220/240 VAC. That's different wire than what you have. (more conductors).

There are not too many applications you need 10-2 for.   ???

Pigtails are flexible until the bad boy behind you in class dribbles glue on them.   :P
All the wire used to connect everything in the walls, switches to receptacles, etc is a single strand. However there are special pigtail connectors made for use within a box that use stranded flexible wire. There's a wire nut on one end and a spade connector on the other. Can be handy at times.

I assume you are in an area where you'll be connected to the power grid. Correct? And you are subject to inspections and permits? If so you still may be able to do a lot of the electrical yourself. Most jurisdictions have a owner-builder permit available for electrical as well as plumbing. If you pass the test you are llowed to do your own wiring/plumbing. Then they inspect it.

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: ScottA on September 30, 2008, 07:11:48 PM
Here in OK you can do your own elec / plumb but you must live in the house for 2 years before you can sell or rent it .
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on September 30, 2008, 08:30:07 PM
Nope, not tied to the grid.  Solar panels, batteries, and generators.  5th wheels don't use much electricity. 

The cabin will probably use more juice. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on September 30, 2008, 08:44:44 PM
CF I agree with the others regarding the use of 10 AWG for the cabin with a few exceptions.  Once you try to run the wire in the chases and work into the boxes you will see what they are saying.  If you did have something that you could use it for try to run directly up to the recepticle and not have to pull it through a room.  Even 12 AWG is difficult at times. I had a piece of 10/3 which I wanted to use up and decided to run it through several tight turns. I will never do that dumb trick again.  But everything to me seems difficult when not dealing with convientional framing.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on September 30, 2008, 08:57:47 PM
Quote from: considerations on September 30, 2008, 08:30:07 PM
Nope, not tied to the grid.  Solar panels, batteries, and generators.  5th wheels don't use much electricity. 

The cabin will probably use more juice. 

Ah!!!  A woman after my own heart!! 

So then, the number 10-2 wire could be useful for some things like running power for DC purposes, depending on the loads and voltages involved.

I have no idea how much you know on the subject of AC vs. DC, pros and cons, etc. Keep in mind that use tends to grow over time. At least in most cases. Mine for sure if the past is an indicator.  :(
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on September 30, 2008, 09:44:39 PM
I don't know much, except I didn't kill myself getting the solar and batteries wired.  3 years, no fires.

Of course, then the 5th wheel has a nice and easy cord that plugs in, just like a toaster.  How hard was that.

I think the cabin will be a little different. (ok NOW you can all roll your eyes)

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on October 01, 2008, 01:41:43 AM
QuotePigtails are flexible until the bad boy behind you in class dribbles glue on them.

I'm sorry.  I thought you were supposed to dip them in the ink well.....   d*
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on October 12, 2008, 09:23:54 AM


  Whats going on? Are you on vacation?  ???
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on October 12, 2008, 09:56:04 AM
No vacation.  I had about 2 weeks where I was finalizing budget legislation, it got pretty intense.  [yuk]

Didn't do much work on the cabin, but this week, I've been stuffing insulation under the floor.  Not exactly picture worthy stuff..Slow, awkward.  At least there is enough room under there to sit on a footstool and do the work, but you have to be a contortionist to get around with all that diagonal bracing.  It's ok, but I've had more fun doing other parts of the project.


But I'm actually thinking ahead, I'm only doing the center, leaving 2 foot or so perimeter uninsulated until I get the plumbing and wiring done. 

I'm just trying to get that insulation out from under the tarp where it has been all summer.  Now the rainy season is here, and I don't want any wet insulation. 

I've priced doors (yagh) and battened one side of the cabin to hold the house wrap down, because I don't think siding is in the picture until spring or so.

I had to pick the blackberries, last chance before they went over the top, and the darn electric fence is clicking, not thumping, so I've been walking it looking for the short. 

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on November 04, 2008, 12:33:46 AM
Ok, I'm back.  Hi all! Finally got the gable ends upstairs all closed up and Tyveke'd.  Kinda wet and chilly today.  I've graduated to cutting on sawhorses inside.  Time to hang a worklight. All that OSB and Tyvek covers where the doors and windows go so it's a little dark in there. But dry (hurray).

I want stairs and a landing for the main door to free up a ladder and make hauling things in and out easier. So that's next.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on November 04, 2008, 12:45:44 AM
It's always nice to be dry.  :D   Some light and some heat would be nice too.    ;D
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on November 04, 2008, 09:40:15 AM
We were anxiously awaiting your next post, thanks considerations.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Woodswalker on November 04, 2008, 07:24:21 PM
I too have been wondering how you are progressing.  Thanks for the report.  When building my cabin, I avoided the floor insulation contortions by doing the job from above, before installing the floor sheathing.  Had to spring for a couple of 20' tarps tho, to be sure it didn't get wet before I could get the place dried-in.

Don't be afraid to tackle the wiring.  Years ago, while renovating a 1920's house, I bought a couple of books on electrical basics and wiring.  Then installed a new mast, meter socket, breaker box, and several circuits - both 110 and 220 VAC.  Only thing the inspector asked me to do was drill a hole in the bottom of the mast to let any rainwater that might blow in at the top drain back out.  You're doing well, so keep on plugging away at it.

As you know already, folks here have quick, accurate advice should you get snagged on something.  Only eye-rolls allowed are the little yellow smileys.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: ScottA on November 04, 2008, 08:20:28 PM
Maybe she don't have internet in the new house yet? Where you at Considerations?
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on November 04, 2008, 09:43:52 PM
"I avoided the floor insulation contortions by doing the job from above, before installing the floor sheathing."

I got stern warnings from my forum mentors to not do exactly that...so it wouldn't get wet.  Well, it didn't get wet.  Aleave and I are getting pretty cozy. 

BUT I ignored the insulation today and put in a window!  It's 5' x 6' and there's lots o light downstairs now. I'll get a pic tommorrow. I was still taping around it when it got too dark for the camera. 

The days are getting pretty short around here. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on November 06, 2008, 02:00:58 AM
Ha!
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/20081105016.jpg)

;D
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on November 06, 2008, 02:44:10 AM
Great. :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on November 06, 2008, 06:34:54 AM
Looking good. Funny when you get started on a project it just seems it will never get finished and all of a sudden it starts to take shape real fast.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: ScottA on November 06, 2008, 09:14:37 AM
Nice work.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on November 06, 2008, 09:44:26 AM
"Nice work"

Thanks, but a big thanks to all of you for recommending the framing books.  I think I spend more time with my nose in them than I spend actually building.   ::)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on November 06, 2008, 09:51:16 AM
Many people can read books and still not put it together.  A lot of the credit must go to you. :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on November 06, 2008, 11:14:09 AM
... able to read, comprehend and drive nails! Not everyone can pull that off.  :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: John Raabe on November 07, 2008, 12:18:36 PM
Nice work Considerations!

You have a cozy place there and you made it happen.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Whitlock on November 07, 2008, 01:12:29 PM
Nice place you will be done before you know it [cool]
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on November 12, 2008, 12:25:30 AM
I caught a window between downpours today and poured a 4 x 8 pad for the porch.  Finished in the dark and it had started raining, but I got a tarp tented over it.  Think it may be awhile before it cures real well.  I have to get a headband for this new flashlight, I slobbered all over it so I could use two hands to clean the tools and the mixer. 

The horses seemed perplexed to see me out in there with a bright light where my mouth should be.  I got into the house and fell into a giggling fit about the silliness of it all as I hung my clothes to dry in front of the heater vents.  Ahhh, life in a 5th wheel!

d*
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on November 12, 2008, 12:30:03 AM
considerations, Costco has some neat LED headlights with head bands and pouches.  I carry one all of the time along with a 3 cell 3watt LED Maglite, in case I get into a area where I just have to check out a mine shaft. d*  The headlights leave your hands and your mouth free.  Great for working with.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on November 12, 2008, 12:33:28 AM
Quote from: considerations on November 12, 2008, 12:25:30 AM
Think it may be awhile before it cures real well. 

Actually, as long as it doesn't freeze, the wet weather will be good for the concrete. Keeping the surface damp/wet for 28 days will allow max strength to develop. Rapid drying of the surface in hot windy weather is the worst.


A good LED headband light is a godsend at times.  :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on November 12, 2008, 12:36:40 AM
Yes - the LED headband is great - batteries last a long time --- unless I accidently hit the on button and don't find out for a day or two.  I use the Eneloop rechargables for Costco also for just that reason.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on November 12, 2008, 01:32:05 AM
I think, the way it is raining, that even with the tarp the cure will be slow.  Welcome to the Olympic rainforest. 

Part of the slab is directly under the drip line from the eaves, so I had to hustle to get it covered.  I have a really pretty groove of exposed aggregate along one edge, and the surface had water standing on it by the time I got the tarp over it. 

I was worried about the little metal saddles I stuck into the cement so that I could attach the porch posts.  The cement accomodated me sticking them.  I mixed and poured 3 bags at a time and after smoothing out a section would go mix another batch, then when I got that smoothed out I backtracked one pour and stuck the saddle in.  They were nice and level. We'll see how that turns out.

i didn't want the rain to turn my work into soup.  I had to read a lot to figure out this concrete thing, my prior experience is confined to dumping a bag of dry crete around a fence post. 

Plus my son runs a  concrete pumper truck in Texas, so he had plenty to say that got me really confused for awhile.  Slump tests?  are you kidding?!  I went back to the DIY websites, they are written for beginners like me.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Sassy on November 13, 2008, 10:27:49 PM
Great progress!  So where's the pix?  You know we like pix  ;)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on November 20, 2008, 01:17:29 PM
OK pics  - The disgusting rip in the Tyvek is where the front door will be.  The porch is temporary - it's going to be a carport when it grows up.

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/20081119007.jpg)

Yikes, photobucket upgraded - what a chore!

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/20081119008.jpg)

A comment from one of the locals:

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/20081119011.jpg)

c*

Things are still crawling along.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Sassy on November 20, 2008, 01:52:02 PM
Hey, looking great!  I like the log pillars  8) on the porch...  kinda wet your way  :-\  you could share some it with us  c*
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on November 20, 2008, 02:41:05 PM
I would share some with you Sassy but I don't think you would want it this time of year. Predicting 6-12" tonight.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on November 21, 2008, 08:54:34 AM
Yup - wet.  I'm suprised it hasn't snowed.  30 - 32 at night and 45 or so during the day and rain rain rain. It feels like it could. I'm resting for a few days.  Even with a block and tackle the logs were heavy. 

Thanks, I really like the logs too. There are a few trees around here that make using cedar pillars on the decks a feasible choice.  They blew partly over a few years ago but are still alive.  My neighbor is begging me to help him take them out.  I was as nervous as he is about cutting them down because they are in clumps of 6 or seven, they are tall and skinny, about 80', and leaning against standing timber.  So I called in a logger to do the deed.  He's thrilled, I'm thrilled, and the logger got the big but ends for his little sawmill.  I finally figured out the siding, now that I know there are several privately owned little sawmills around here.  I really wanted a log cabin, but it didnt' take long to compare costs with stick built.  So the siding is my compromise. 

I'm going to the mainland to pick up a franklin stove for the cabin.  Gas is 2.19 a gallon and the truck is a hog, so now is the time, before it starts going back up.  I topped off the tanks yesterday. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on November 21, 2008, 09:00:28 AM
siding

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/20081105002.jpg)

Lets see an assessor put a value on this.   :P
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on November 21, 2008, 11:13:05 AM
Oh ugh. Just finished the morning chores.  This is the time of year when there is no romance in having an outhouse.  Brrr!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on November 21, 2008, 11:51:21 AM
That is the type of siding I make and use, considerations.  I like to cut the top edge smooth to keep the lap easier.  I lap at least and inch at the narrowest space to prevent gaps as the boards shrink.  I use either 1/2" or 5/8" thick boards.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on November 21, 2008, 12:06:22 PM
awesome troglodyte!  Do you have a pic?  This is the only example I've seen and its a bit weathered, to say the least.  Im making note of your cutting and placing instructions.  I do have one more question on cutting.

From trying to peek behind the siding, I think they just cut a log in half, then went back and made siding, so one side was the log profile, and the other was straight, like you said.  But, did you make any attempt to cut that straight side one more time to make each plank have a somewhat uniform width?

I don't think these folks did, but the trees they used had pretty big diameters.  Chances are I'll be working with smaller diameter, and a greater variation in width from butt to tip.

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on November 21, 2008, 12:37:25 PM
I trimmed them to even  by stacking them vertically on the sawmill and trimming the tops removing most of the taper, however I  alternately reversed them if taper between knots etc, was a problem so they remained relatively level.  I tacked a nail in at each end to help hold them at the lap I wanted then removed the nail after the board was fastened -working alone.  Don't fret level so much on each board when trying to get the lap right due to the waviness.  It will be easier then just level the top one as necessary.

I cut slices from the whole log then trimmed only the top few inches and taper giving me wider boards.  The thinner boards will cup less than the thicker boards or at least easier to control.  Outer wood can shrink more than inner wood so if you pay attention to which side is out you could make the cupping convex.  I had no real problem with thin cedar.  Use galvanized nails to prevent black streaks if not painting - no paint on cedar - stain is OK.

(https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/Snow%20February%2028%202007/P1010525_edited.jpg)

(https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/P1010717_edited.jpg)

(https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/P1000511.jpg)

(https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/P1000517.jpg)

I need to take better pix - some are real old.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Sassy on November 21, 2008, 12:58:38 PM
I really like that siding, too.  In the master bath Glenn put the siding up vertically...  I'll have to find a picture of that - looks really nice, though.

Yes, the ole outhouse...  I remember it well, ha - but did have an excellent view down the valley!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on November 21, 2008, 03:54:37 PM
Thanks Glenn, I know I'm going to like the finished product, your's looks great.

As for the outhouse, I'd heat it, but its plastic.  The view, well, its ok as long as you keep an ear cocked for someone coming up the driveway.   ;)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on November 22, 2008, 11:29:39 AM
Thanks, considerations.  Looking forward to seeing yours. :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: diyfrank on November 22, 2008, 12:56:23 PM
Very cool!

That siding looks great. Gives me some ideas.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on November 22, 2008, 01:00:02 PM
w* diyfrank.

Hope to hear more of your planned project.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: diyfrank on November 22, 2008, 02:14:34 PM
Thanks for the welcome and I will post my ideas later.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Jens on November 22, 2008, 08:13:01 PM
You are doing a great job on the cabin considerations!  Are the extensions of the ridge beam wrapped in sheet metal?  Just as a suggestion to anybody building with a metal roof.  You could add 2x4 sleepers over the felt, then install the roofing panels on top of the sleepers.  you can put them on 3 foot centers, so the felt can be lapped over.  Never done this before, and doesn't make huge sense when flat sheeting roof (purlins are usually used without sheeting), but seems like a good idea for this purpose.  Dont have to worry about screws coming through showboard either.  I am a big fan of the rough edge siding as well, and the cedar looks awesome.  Will weather gray, but still look cool.  Love that 29 tudor too Glen!  kinda reminds me of this one I built years ago. 
(https://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc93/hobbiest/Roadster.jpg)
And the one we took on our first anniversary.  Except they were both roadsters.
(https://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc93/hobbiest/1stAnniversaryKissInCar.jpg)
so glad the doctors were able to remove that pole from the top of my head.  Sure does make life easier than it was back then.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on November 23, 2008, 02:04:30 AM
Ours is a 26 Dodge Brothers Sedan.  The 1919 Dodge Roadster is directly below the 26 in the lower level of the garage .  I'll try to get some pix posted one of these days in the RV Garage thread.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on November 24, 2008, 11:22:01 PM
"Are the extensions of the ridge beam wrapped in sheet metal?"

Yes.  I've learned that untreated wood bared to the elements in the PNW is not a wise choice.

That, and a block and tackle will get the bulky stuff into the upper floor. 

I don't know when the back stairs will get built, and the stairs inside are L shaped.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on November 25, 2008, 12:12:01 AM
Considerations, I think I now found the Photobucket downgrading problem also.

I found that using "control C" after clicking to highlight the img tag will copy it without having to go to another page and back.  Why couldn't they leave well enough alone instead of trying to fix it.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on November 25, 2008, 10:22:50 AM
"I found that using "control C" after clicking to highlight the img tag will copy it without having to go to another page and back.  Why couldn't they leave well enough alone instead of trying to fix it."

Come on Glenn, have you forgotten about "job justification"?  I think some institutions offer a degree in it these days.   :-\

Now some one gets to work for six months to code the "fix".....
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on November 25, 2008, 12:25:50 PM
d*  So that is what Microsoft is up to....Permanent job security

...and Firefox will never stop hogging memory when I have 32 tabs open... [crz]
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on November 25, 2008, 12:33:24 PM
Quote from: glenn kangiser on November 25, 2008, 12:25:50 PM

...and Firefox will never stop hogging memory when I have 32 tabs open... [crz]

Do you blame it?   
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on November 25, 2008, 12:37:23 PM
I still want to do it my way.  The Burger King computer use theory. [crz]
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on November 28, 2008, 02:26:04 PM
I got the steps done.  The deck is not fastened.  Have to figure out the curves around the posts... ???

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/HPIM0834.jpg)

At least the stairs are level and uniform.  All that, and then I find out there are little calculators that can do the head scratching for you.  Stubborn people often reinvent the wheel.

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/HPIM0835.jpg)


Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on November 28, 2008, 06:47:31 PM
Quote from: considerations on November 28, 2008, 02:26:04 PM


  Stubborn people often reinvent the wheel.



Real stuborn folks don't ask either , they just do it , so I guess we know where you at  rofl
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on November 28, 2008, 09:38:02 PM
Sturdy looking stairs.  :D
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on November 28, 2008, 10:47:53 PM
The curves around the posts... Considerations, do you mean you want to scribe a board to fit the posts tightly? hmm

If so we can direct you on that.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on November 30, 2008, 10:37:10 AM
"The curves around the posts... Considerations, do you mean you want to scribe a board to fit the posts tightly?"

Uhm....Yes.  The top of that little deck is made up of 2 x 4 PT, and the posts are round.  To completely cover the deck, with a little overhang along the outside edge, 2 of the 2 x 4's will have to be cut (scribed?) to fit the contour of the posts where the posts meet the deck. 

The overhang is necessary (3/4"?) because I want to make an enclosed "cabinet" out of the area under the deck, and it will shelter the top of the enclosure wall with the doors in it. 

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on November 30, 2008, 10:59:06 AM
considerations I am probably not the best on the subject but I had to do several with the cabin.  I will tell you how I did it.

Take the 2X4 that you want to scribe and place it parralled to the post but also parrallel to the existing deck boards already in place.  The later being the most important.  There will be a difference between the post side of the board and each individual post.  The one with the most difference is what you want to set your scribe by.  So in essence you will be taking out less material on the bigger gaps areas and more on the smaller gap areas.  I use a drafting compass or divider. Figure out how far you want to wrap the curve around the post and set the compass to give you that depth from the edge (outside edge).  You will have to take into condiseration( no pun intended) that you will need to take out enough to allow the inside edge of the board to meet with the board already in place with your deck.
Depending on the distance you now have it may be necessary to rip the board to meet existing board to give you the proper width( Usually doesn't work out on the edge)


I am terrible with explanation.  I know how to but poorley explain the process to others. d*
Maybe Glenn will have a better way.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on November 30, 2008, 11:39:01 AM
Pretty close, John. 

You can eliminate ripping the board by making it exactly parallel with the existing deck boards - allowing the gaps to vary on the posts.

This is called offsetting by my old dead uncle who taught me.  The marking of it is the scribing because as John said it is scribed onto the board with a compass or there are actually scribing tools that look just about like a compass. d*

You can set it tight to  the closest post if you want and parallel to the boards to keep the gap consistent but it can be set a given number of inches if you want such as 1/2 inch - 1 " etc.  Key is parallel to the existing desired straight line - in this case the deck boards.  Sheetrock etc  is the same story.

Before placing the board measure the tightest space from the post to the existing deck board.  Add a desired amount for  clearance - 0" t0 1/8" or whatever you want.  You could make it tight and hammer it in with a block of wood to protect it? Maybe.... :)

Secure the board in this parallel to deck position by screws, nails or weights.  Set the compass or scribe so that the mark will leave only enough board to fit in the gap - add the desired clearance to the scribe spread distance to make the  cut board that much thinner. Double check by measuring the marked board.  Practice once on one post with a scrap if you want.

If the gap was 2 inches then the thickness should be 1 15/16" if you wanted a 1/16" clearance.  Since the other post now has a wider gap and the scribe is set the same distance for all, the proper space will then be marked on the further distant or closer other obstacles.

It is imperative that the scribe (line from log contact point to the pencil) be held at a 90 degree angle ( close to vertical but square with the deck board edge)  to the parallel surface of the deck boards.  This is what determines how accurate the distances are that are transferred to the mark you are making on the board.

Running the point of the scribe along the post causes the pencil to move in exact relationship to the contours of the post.  Be sure to not move the distance the compass or scribe is set at during the marking operation.  Light lines are ok - you can darken them with a pencil if you want.  Remember - Hold the scribe square to the existing deck boards to insure accuracy.  I do it freehand but eyeballed square as I do it.  The contour will come out quite well if you are carefull.

After  marked cut the shape out with a sawzall or saber saw etc. If you are like me you may beat it out with a rock ax or cut it out with a chainsaw. d* [crz]

Need pictures?   I can do a sketch or make pix of the procedure.




Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on November 30, 2008, 12:01:35 PM
Here is one I used cardboard templates on to transfer the scribed marks to 3 sides.

(https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/scribedboard.jpg)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on November 30, 2008, 12:43:21 PM
I had forgot using the cardboard Glenn. You can use it either to freehand and just keep cutting out to make the fit OR use the cardboard in place of the deck board that you want to scribe.  Cut out the carboard and make sure that it pleases you then transfer it to the wood board once you are satisfied.  I have done it both ways.  The only problem arises when you are doing it to T&G and it takes on a new meaning of " attempts".

With the floor in the cabin where it met the post and logs I cheated a little.  I just kerf cut permanent section and inserted the flooring.  Probably wouldn't be a proper way for exterior with water but it worked on the inside.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on November 30, 2008, 12:49:14 PM
As you do it and gain confidence you can do it right on the board but in difficult situations it can help.  I have cut slots in some places also.

Patterns and carefully laying out distances can work also.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on December 01, 2008, 03:18:51 PM
This is one of those things that's easier to demo in a video than to write about it.

One way is to use cardboard and trial and error to obtain a template. Probably lots od trial, lots of error.

Glenn's bang on with the method using the compass. Below is a crude hurried drawing. Please ask if you're not clear. The main point is to hold that compass you're scribing/tracing the diameter of the post with in the same exact orientation to the post. Do not rotate the compass around the post as many people are wont to do. That just makes a bigger diamter that is of no use.

In my drawing;
#1 is a suggestion for laying out paper sheets and taping them together to obtain a surface around the post. This paper will be scribed on using the compass.

#2 illustrates what is meant by holding the compass perpendicular to the material. That orientation is held as the compass is moved around the post.

#3 illustrates sort of what the trace line should look like, except in my drawing the curves don't match  d*  They should.

My drawing makes it appear that the compass is slanted or tilted. That is just for illustrative purposes. In practice the compass woule be held more to the vertical.

(https://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q75/djmillerbucket/construction/scribe-curve.jpg)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on December 01, 2008, 06:14:59 PM
"This is one of those things that's easier to demo in a video than to write about it."

Who needs a video, we have MountainDon!   [cool]

You confirmed my interpretation of the explanations.  I'll let you know how it turns out, I'm on my "lunch break" and then the first cuts begin.....yes I have extra lumber. 

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on December 07, 2008, 10:47:04 AM
Ok pics coming, I keep getting finished after dark.  I got the damn door in. Yes it is square and level.  Coughed for a pretty standard knob and deadbolt kit, but ended up putting it back in the box. 

It came with an exploded drawing for the dead bolt that showed parts to install that are not in the box. 

Hell, I don't know.  Do the cheaper models have less parts?  Specifically there is this "plate" that has a metal "can", "funnel", I don't know, that fits in and lines the hole where the dead bolt resides when it is extended. 

I'm headed back to the store to sort things out. (growl).  As long as the wind does not come up, I guess I'm fine for now.  >:(

This economy is starting to get me pretty nervous.  I want to get this place done, but do I save cash also, ergo slowing down the work? Is cash going to be worth anything soon?  Hmmmm.,  I think I need more coffee.  c*
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on December 07, 2008, 11:05:56 AM
Maybe for a bit but I don't see it staying that way.

My rewarming coffee is in the Microwave.  The door latch should be a pretty straightforward process when you have all of the parts.  Don't forget to get ammo. :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on December 07, 2008, 11:22:40 AM

  c* mines just getting done brewing ,that thing is called a dust cover . It's really optional it goes in under the escutcheon plate which is the name of just about any plate that lines or covers a hole.


I did a door hanging thread , I'll see if I can find it.


Generally I throw out the dust covers most lock makers make the things to large and as wimpy as door jambs are today and the crappy wood they use to make the jambs they are almost impossible to install properly.


Take a pitch of your lock laid out on the floor , you may just have something back arse wards , I might be able to help you out and save a trip to town.

Most locks , IF THE box was not opened have all the parts , seldom do they short you as much as a screw.

   

   
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on December 07, 2008, 11:36:53 AM

I bumped it up from page 53 on the General forum ,

http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=3219.msg74463#new
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Sassy on December 07, 2008, 12:33:04 PM
Hey, considerations, those look like mighty fine steps!  Great job...  hope you're getting your lock in ok.  I was working for a week down in the valley & couldn't see the pix & sometimes miss a lot of postings.

PEG's step by step instructions are so clear even I could probably do it!   :D
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Jens on December 07, 2008, 11:22:04 PM
calculators schmalculators.  Stairs don't have to be hard if you know the formula (yours look great by the way).  I start by figuring out the total vertical drop.  If you know that the surface that the bottom of the stairs sit on (a floor for example), and the surface directly underneath the platform are the same height, just measure down.  Sometimes you need to run a level line out, and measure from directly above the foot of the stairs. 
     Measure down, and get your first number...lets just say that it is 88 inches.  A decent rise of stair is between 7 1/4", and 7 1/2", so we divide 88 by 7.25=12.1379.  That is just barely more than 12 steps to cover that total rise.  Now, if we say that there are 13 steps, the rise becomes less than 7.25", so we will say that there are 12 (sometimes you will want to round up, instead of down).  88 divided by 12 = 7.33, that is the rise of each step.  Now, I don't know anyone who has a tape that reads in decimals, so what I do, is take .250...1/4", and add .125...half of 1/4", and I get .375, or 3/8".  Close enough for me.  The code states that the rise cannot vary more than 3/8" total over entire rise of stairs, no more than 1/8" between consequetive steps.  So now you know that your rise is 7 3/8" each stair, and you have 12 steps.  Remember though, that the top step is not part of the stringer that you are cutting, but is up to the top of your platform.  So when you lay out your stringer, you only put 11 risers in the layout (if the stringers are mounted below the platform, 12 if platform height includes stringer). 
    Not done quite yet!  Subtract the thickness of your FINISHED tread material, from the bottom of the stringer (bottom of first riser).  This way, when you add the tread material, you end up with your correct rise amount.  If your stairs are going in before the finished floor, add the thickness of your finished floor to the same place you just removed.  So, every step should now have 7 3/8" rise, but the bottom end of your stringer will only be 5 7/8" (7 3/8" minus 1 /12" tread thickness), but when you add your finished 3/4" (?) flooring, it will now be too low, so adding 3/4, we come out with 6 5/8" from the bottom (level cut to sit on subfloor) of the stringer, to the top of the first riser.  Every riser after that will be 7 3/8".  You must allow for the finished flooring upstairs as well, but this is easier to do when you first measure, as the flooring up there may be different thickness than the tread stock, or downstairs flooring. 
     So to make this all easier, I will tell you something that I should have put in earlier...take a scrap of whatever the finished floor is for each floor, and put it in place before you make your first measurement.  The top of the stringer gets put to a line that is 7 3/8" below this level (to your finished tread stock).  So, like PEG always says...depends.  I really hope I didn't just confuse the snot out of everybody, but it has been a long day, is late, and I just spent so much time typing this, that I am not going to not post it!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on December 07, 2008, 11:52:38 PM
Quote from: Jens on December 07, 2008, 11:22:04 PM



   #1: So, like PEG always says...depends. 




    #2:  I really hope I didn't just confuse the snot out of everybody, but it has been a long day, is late, and I just spent so much time typing this, that I am not going to not post it!


 

  #1:  That was clear as mud Jen's , but your right about one thing ,  It depends  rofl


#2: Keep tryin "son" , some day you'll get-er [rofl2]
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on December 08, 2008, 08:57:42 AM
PEG - that's pretty much what happened, except I came up a little short, and had to stick a PT 4 X 4 under the back side of the bottom of the stringers because I undershot the concrete pad by about 3 inches. 

Its practice for the one in the house.  I think on that one, I'm going to have to put at least 1 rise in the corner of the L to make it to the second floor. That's going to be interesting.  c*
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on December 18, 2008, 09:23:08 AM
well, I've been accumulating pics, but during this cold snap my wireless internet transmitter froze/flaked out/died/something.  Anyway I've been reduced to dial-up until some technogeek gathers the cajones to drive out here on the cleared and sanded highways and deal with the electronics wad at the top of the tower. 

So, the pics are piling up until an upload to photobucket is feasible.  The 1st half of the interior stairs is pretty much in, I have a surprise for all of you on them..... ;D

The landing has to swallow 2 rises or i will be crawling from the top step to the loft. That is in progress. 

This is all being pushed by this cold weather.  When the stairs are "done", I can place the stove, get the chimney in and light a fire! 

a mattress and box springs is laying on OSB up in the "loft"....which is still just ceiling joists with OSB laying on them, but "camping" in the cabin in is my near future!

Not to mention that it will be warmer work once the stove is fired up.  c* 

yes I have a propane heater, but its the kind that just screws into the top of a propane tank, sort of makes me nervous, fumes and all. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on December 18, 2008, 11:52:52 AM

Well don't kill yourself , this snow will go away one day , looks like next Wed. or Thursday  ,we hope  :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on December 18, 2008, 05:47:27 PM
CF do you have any insulation in the rafters yet?  That will make a world of difference in holding the heat. More so than the walls.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on December 19, 2008, 01:18:07 AM
Quote from: considerations on December 18, 2008, 09:23:08 AM
well, I've been accumulating pics, but during this cold snap my wireless internet transmitter froze/flaked out/died/something.  Anyway I've been reduced to dial-up until some technogeek gathers the cajones to drive out here on the cleared and sanded highways and deal with the electronics wad at the top of the tower. 



I have the cajones, considerations - it's just that long drive from here to there....

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on December 20, 2008, 01:44:15 AM
"this snow will go away one day , looks like next Wed. or Thursday" 

PEG are you under the blizzard warning for Saturday night as well?

Sounds like a doozy.

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on December 20, 2008, 02:15:24 AM

  They say Whidbey will miss out on the BIG fun , 15 Deg,F here right now   :o   :o , 1 to 3" of new snow Sat night.


  Sunday snow showers .

The big fun's suppose to be out your way and down south and east of Seattle , 50 to 70 MPH wind sustained,,,,,,,, with gusts to 80 MPH with snow . :o   :o 

Gonna be a rough weekend in the PNW.

Good luck.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on December 20, 2008, 10:23:46 PM
"I have the cajones, considerations - it's just that long drive from here to there."

No doubt in my peapickin mind.

Got the internet connection fixed, after a knockdown drag-out with the ISP owner.  He decided to use steamroller tactics...he didn't think I would know how to respond to that.....woose.

Anyway.  It's 7PM, been snowing since 3PM, it's calm, I'm not going to say the W--- word, don't want to invoke anything.  It's supposed to be a blizzard, I suppose the folks in places that always get real winters are laughing at me.  But, I checked out the gen - it works, the jerry cans are full, the water is thawed and holding, the furnace is fixed, and oh yeah, did I mention?....the wireless internet is working.   ;D
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on December 20, 2008, 10:49:56 PM
Cold but progressing:
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/HPIM0842.jpg)

Slowly
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/HPIM0840.jpg)

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/HPIM0841.jpg)

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/HPIM0937.jpg)

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/HPIM0940.jpg)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Jens on December 21, 2008, 12:08:14 AM
Is it really 2005 out there (date on the photos)!?  Looking pretty good...cold, but good.  I don't miss 3 hours of shoveling just to be able to go to work!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on December 21, 2008, 12:38:16 AM
Looks great, young lady.   :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on December 21, 2008, 01:17:21 AM
"Is it really 2005 out there?"  Yeah, back to the future.

No, it's just so cold that the darn camera batteries croak need to be swapped out of the charger.  Every time I do that, I'm supposed to reset the date, I forget. Yes the camera displays some little annoying message about it but I don't wear glasses outside because they just fog up from the cold, so I often don't notice the display. 

Trust me, there wasn't anything out there in 2005 but scrub alder and scotch broom.

"I don't miss 3 hours of shoveling just to be able to go to work!"

I don't think I'd like that either.  I just work from home.

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on January 02, 2009, 10:04:51 AM
I'm going to have to start accumulating a list of wattage demands for electrical things I install in the little house.  Right now I have no idea what sort of load I'm going to be creating. I want more panels, but am torn between that and chasing more info on wind power to diversify the power sources.  There is a helix turbine now that runs in light airs, and looks like a good idea for the highly variable conditions here.  Plus we have more wind in the winter than in the summer, when the panels pretty much do the job.


Oh yeah, I have to put 2 risers in the stair landing, erg.  My tongue got a cramp figuring out the angles....now I'm chipping away getting the inside corner to go gracefully around the tree trunk I decided to use for the inside corner.  Yagh I'm slow in the cold!  Pics soon, when I have something to show for the effort.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on January 15, 2009, 08:32:00 AM
I brought in some help to make the corner....the second carpenter can never find a 90 degree angle.   >:(

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/HPIM1042.jpg)

However, progress is being made

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/HPIM1045.jpg)

c*

(I don't think is such a thing as a 90 degree angle when one decides to use tree trunks)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on January 15, 2009, 08:34:47 AM
considerations try using old logs and also tree trunks.  You get as close as you can and let the rest disappear in time.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on January 15, 2009, 09:06:26 AM
Those are tree trunks, really.  I've been "helping" the neighbor clear some of his blowdown from the cedar grove. Poor guys didn't even know they were dead, they still had branches and new growth on them.....thank you Daddy for leaving me a drawknife.

Where I get confused is the "marriage" between the square lumber and the "round" posts. The porch was pretty easy, no corners.  Finally when I figured out I need two risers in the stair landing, and that meant some whacky angles... I capitulated and asked for help. 

Getting the stairs in gets the stove placed....gets a fire in the stove, gets me in the loft, at least at night.

At the rate I was going, by the time the stove is hooked up, I wouldn't need it cause summer will be back.  Too much thinking, not enough hammering.  ???

I always rankle at not doing it myself, but forward progress is the mantra, not stubborn stalling.  At least I have resources (people) that I can trust.



Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: ScottA on January 15, 2009, 09:14:54 AM
That's going to look nice.  :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on January 15, 2009, 09:34:33 AM
I wasn't doubting you.  I used 10-14" locust for the short log wall supports.  Out of 5 there were three that were the but or stump end.  It looks really neat when it spreads out over the floor at the bottom.  The biggest challange I had was lifting and holding them in place while I squared the bottom to be level and then getting them back up again by myself.  Just guessing they probably weighed 200+ pounds apiece.  Then there was the porch post which were the same with the exception of notching out for the ledger to support the roof rafters.  I still have one major job left with logs and that is the stairs which I hope to use the exterior halves of a log to make the stair stringers and steps.  I don't look forward to that.

I always kept the chain saw, chisels, adze and anything else available to make the notches easier.  Lag bolts and wooden plugs are the easiest to work with.  But I fouond that predrilling was neccessity working with the locust.

Although you can't see alot in this picture this is one of the butt end log post.

(https://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd161/redoverfarm/hightop/100_1678-1.jpg)

CF as long as you are making progress that's what counts.  Starting to see daylight at the end of the tunnel.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on January 16, 2009, 02:28:20 PM
"Out of 5 there were three that were the but or stump end.  It looks really neat when it spreads out over the floor at the bottom. "

Yes they do! I'd like to see closer up pics of those, if you get the time.

"The biggest challange I had was lifting and holding them in place while I squared the bottom to be level and then getting them back up again by myself.  Just guessing they probably weighed 200+ pounds apiece."

I'll say, it took both of us.  We had to lift them through the front window because they were too long to get through the door.

2 of them were 17' long and notched at the top to "meld" with the ridge beam.  The cabin is  only 14' wide and 24' long and 7'6" to the bottom of the ceiling joists , which are only 22.5" apart.

Threading (horsing/joist bending/cursing/grunting) the "poles" from horizontal on the first floor between the ceiling joists to upright and "visually vertical) from first floor to ridge beam was, well alternately exciting and challenging.

Anyway, since I didn't really plan for the weight of those two really long ones, I'm going to get two more concrete pads and piers and put a 6 x 6 post under the first floor to support each one.  The base of each post is lag bolted through the floor, so I know where the braces go.   

Plus, I don't care what they look like when in the woods, no tree is straight.  There's always a bow or bend or even an "s" somewhere to some degree.  So it was a real accomplishment and even the guy I hired couldn't do it by himself.  I say the "guy"....he's actually a not very close neighbor and he and his "gal" are becoming good friends.  Certainly a handy person to know.

The stairs and wood stove is pretty much the "architectural centerpiece" of the whole cabin.  There is no room for any others.  :D

So I'm glad we did it.   c*
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Sassy on January 16, 2009, 03:15:01 PM
Considerations, those logs will really give your place the custom touch  8)  I especially like how you've incorporated them into the stairway. 

Ask Glenn about straight logs  d*  I can't even count how many logs we have in our place!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on January 16, 2009, 11:03:51 PM
That's cool considerations.  You got it - trees don't grow straight in the woods.  Straight enough to work is good. :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on January 24, 2009, 08:18:11 AM
considerations I posted a couple pictures of the log support post in the Dogtrot post since you wanted to see them.  I only got one on the camera before the battery died.  The other is basicly the same.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Beavers on January 28, 2009, 08:00:30 PM
considerations,

I have been following your post closely, I'll be breaking ground on my 14x24 as soon as the ground thaws.

Your place looks great!  [cool]

I'm also considering using 2x6 T&G for my flooring.  The T&G would cost more upfront but, I would be able to have a finished floor for only $1.55 a sq. ft. if you included the cost of a 3/4" T&G plywood subfloor. 

Have you been happy with your floor so far? 
Has it been gouged up much during construction or gotten any water damage?
Would you use it again?

Thanks,
Beavers
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Dog on January 31, 2009, 11:28:11 AM
Hey Considerations...your place is coming along GREAT! I've been reading your thread and it's so interesting. The logs look wonderful~
The days are starting to get longer!!! :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on February 01, 2009, 04:00:59 PM
"I'm also considering using 2x6 T&G for my flooring.  The T&G would cost more upfront but, I would be able to have a finished floor for only $1.55 a sq. ft. if you included the cost of a 3/4" T&G plywood subfloor.  "

I seem to remember spending $750 for enough 2x6 T&G do do the 14 x 24 floor....and I had 3 16' pieces left over... no subfloor, just insulation and a critter barrier underneath.

"Have you been happy with your floor so far?" 

Yes

"Has it been gouged up much during construction or gotten any water damage?"

No water damage thanks to the dire warnings about how and why to protect it from the members of this forum.

Gouging? well, nothing horrendous.  I'm banking on sanding it and then applying the same sort of stuff that hardens up gym floors.  During the construction, I keep sweeping up the woodchips and picking up the errant nails to help preserve the surface.  Plus I have 3 rugs for foot wiping that you have to step on before going inside, and I use them. I keep a tarp laying outside that collects a 4" deep puddle of rainwater to rinse boots on before wiping them on the rugs.  Crude but effective and no one argues about doing it, mostly its just me.

I'll be using "coasters" on any furniture feet and area rugs that will stand up to being hung outside and cleaned with a pressure washer. 

If it goes to the dogs, I'll consider a different type of finish, but I saw softwood floors over 200 years old in Virginia that had held up just fine.

"Would you use it again?"

Yes.  I've pulled carpets out of old places and I don't want to live with what gets stuck down in the weave of wall to walls.   I'm also suspicious of the damp that wafts up out of the ground around here.  Even with moisture barriers on the ground, floors made with particle type sheets seem to blow out faster than plain old wood.  I'll let you know in 25 years how it turned out.  :D


Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on February 02, 2009, 08:16:31 PM
I'm building a wood box - don't fret, I just sort of stacked the pieces into place so I could see what it might look like really vs the picture in my head.

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/HPIM1060.jpg)

The top will be covered with that cement board and then tiled.

Anyway, now I'm thinking that it should have some kind of surface finish inside the box. 

Working hard to be frugal, I have a can of Verathane Spar Urethane.  Its water based, and supposed to be for outdoor use, but from sad experience I can say that it gets wierd and cloudy when outside in cold weather.  So I'm thinking that it might be a good candidate for putting a couple coats on the wood box. 

Does anybody think this would not work?  Easy PEG,  ;) I'm just trying to save money.  That can change if it's a really bad idea.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on February 02, 2009, 08:28:12 PM
I don't see any problem with using the finish.

If you are going to tile on that (w cement fiber backer board) you'll need to be certain that plywood has sufficient support to eliminate any sag from the weight of the stove. It looks like the stove goes on top; right?

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on February 02, 2009, 08:49:15 PM
"It looks like the stove goes on top; right?"

Yes


"If you are going to tile on that (w cement fiber backer board) you'll need to be sertain that plywood has sufficient support to eliminate any sag from the weight of the stove. "   

It's 3/4" plywood and there are two vertical "walls" of the same in the interior, delineating storage for wood, kindling, and cast iron.  Underneath the top will be some 2 x 4 "struts" to stiffen it in a few places.   Then I'm going to reinforce the "critical" corners with 2 x 4's and lots of screws. 

Basically, I plan to rivet it together (sorry PEG). 

Please tell me if you have more ideas about how to stiffen the top.  I'm making this up as I go along.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on February 02, 2009, 09:30:44 PM


   How much does the stove weigh? If it's two person lift I'd double up the 3/4 ply on top before the vement brd.

  The spar varnish should work well, of course the inside of the box will get beat up by the wood being thrown in.

  Your floors look to be getting a nice patina , looks like nice stock as well.

  Is that a gap I see to the left of the left hand post?   You did lay it as tight as you could get it right?

It looks good all in all.   
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on February 02, 2009, 09:47:10 PM
I would second the additional layer of ply.  Then you could get closer to the post on that one.  The tricky part will be getting the tile real close.  I think I would carboard pattern on that and then transfer to the tile.  OR you could cut a slight kerf in the post to allow the tile to be let into the post.  But I would leave a little gap toward the top of the tile for settling.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on February 02, 2009, 09:49:59 PM
I'd also glue the two layers of plywood together with good carpenters glue. Use screws to "clamp" them together. Space them in a grid pattern every 8 inches or so. That will increase the stiffness.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on February 02, 2009, 11:12:23 PM
Ok, I'll double the plywood. 

"Is that a gap I see to the left of the left hand post?   You did lay it as tight as you could get it right?"

You pegged it PEG there are gaps, because I just stacked all the pieces like a house of cards to take the picture. 

I haven't started fastening anything together because I started thinking about the finish...and there are a few places i haven't "figured out" yet.   My first "piece of furniture" I guess.   ???
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on February 02, 2009, 11:37:53 PM
Quote from: considerations on February 02, 2009, 11:12:23 PM
Ok, I'll double the plywood. 

"Is that a gap I see to the left of the left hand post?   You did lay it as tight as you could get it right?"

You pegged it PEG there are gaps, because I just stacked all the pieces like a house of cards to take the picture. 



I was talking about on the floor between the 2x6 T&G. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on February 03, 2009, 02:26:48 AM
"I was talking about on the floor between the 2x6 T&G"

Nope, maybe an optical delusion?    I knew I should have swept better before taking the picture.  I think plywood makes more sawdust than regular lumber.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on February 03, 2009, 09:08:09 AM
Have you given any thought about some type of heat protection on the wall behind where the stove would set or the step side?
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on February 03, 2009, 01:05:19 PM
"Have you given any thought about some type of heat protection on the wall behind where the stove would set or the step side?"

Yes, quite a bit of thought, although nothing firm just yet.  I've spent a lot of time looking at not just the regs, but also how people install heat shielding for wood stoves in boats (Ok, Yachts).  There are some pretty good looking and practical/safe ideas.

Definitely there will be a shield with accommodation for convection. And likely some shielding behind that as well.  I think the hottest part of the stove will be near the top and the first 3 or so feet of chimney, so the shield will likely be at least that tall, maybe more.

I do care a lot about the aesthetics. After all the work to make the stairs look "satisfactory", I don't want an ugly stove installation.

Bottom line is, though, I'll take ugly before I risk safety.   I'll post and ask for input when I have a "plan".  I appreciate the feedback here, it's been priceless (and sometimes hilarious  8)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: ScottA on February 03, 2009, 01:17:16 PM
I'd invest in some stainless plates for heat shields mounted with standoffs from the wall about an inch or so. Anything behind that should be fine.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on February 03, 2009, 01:47:19 PM
While we're spending consuderations money, I vote for sheet copper

http://store.electrical-insulators-and-copper-ground-bars.com/copper-sheet.html
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Beavers on February 03, 2009, 06:43:27 PM
Quote from: considerations on February 01, 2009, 04:00:59 PM
"I'm also considering using 2x6 T&G for my flooring.  The T&G would cost more upfront but, I would be able to have a finished floor for only $1.55 a sq. ft. if you included the cost of a 3/4" T&G plywood subfloor.  "

I seem to remember spending $750 for enough 2x6 T&G do do the 14 x 24 floor....and I had 3 16' pieces left over... no subfloor, just insulation and a critter barrier underneath.

"Have you been happy with your floor so far?" 

Yes

"Has it been gouged up much during construction or gotten any water damage?"

No water damage thanks to the dire warnings about how and why to protect it from the members of this forum.

Gouging? well, nothing horrendous.  I'm banking on sanding it and then applying the same sort of stuff that hardens up gym floors.  During the construction, I keep sweeping up the woodchips and picking up the errant nails to help preserve the surface.  Plus I have 3 rugs for foot wiping that you have to step on before going inside, and I use them. I keep a tarp laying outside that collects a 4" deep puddle of rainwater to rinse boots on before wiping them on the rugs.  Crude but effective and no one argues about doing it, mostly its just me.

I'll be using "coasters" on any furniture feet and area rugs that will stand up to being hung outside and cleaned with a pressure washer. 

If it goes to the dogs, I'll consider a different type of finish, but I saw softwood floors over 200 years old in Virginia that had held up just fine.

"Would you use it again?"

Yes.  I've pulled carpets out of old places and I don't want to live with what gets stuck down in the weave of wall to walls.   I'm also suspicious of the damp that wafts up out of the ground around here.  Even with moisture barriers on the ground, floors made with particle type sheets seem to blow out faster than plain old wood.  I'll let you know in 25 years how it turned out.  :D





Thanks for the info.  :)  Your floor does look great in that last photo!

I found 1x4 T&G Douglas Fir for about half the price of the 2x6 stuff.  If my joists are 2x12 16" o.c. would there be any problem with using the 1x4's ?  How about prefinishing the floor with something like Thompson's?  I realize I would most likely have to refinsh after construction, but it seems like it would protect the floor in the mean time.  Good idea...or not?
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on February 03, 2009, 07:02:54 PM
Personally about the span and the bounce I couldn't tell you but definitely need to finish at least the bottom or the portion that will be showing for a ceiling.  I prefinished mine on both sides just to protect it while working on the inside.  Now since the majority of the ceiling and drywall is almost done I will refinish it.  There was no way I could have finished it correctly on the ceiling side with the beams. And mine were 30" span.

(https://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd161/redoverfarm/hightop/100_1647-1.jpg)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Beavers on February 03, 2009, 09:16:57 PM
I'm planning on doing like considerations, and use the T&G for the main floor in-place of a subfloor.  I'll also be using it in the loft though. 

When you prefinished yours did you finish the T or the G too?  Does that gum things up when trying to fit things together if you do finish everything?
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on February 03, 2009, 09:33:40 PM
"I prefinished mine on both sides just to protect it while working on the inside."

Redover, what did you use?
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on February 03, 2009, 10:39:30 PM
considerations I used Mimwax oil based stain.  Then followed with Polycrylic (2 coats floor and 3 coats ceiling sides)  Polycrylic is not good for wear so the ceiling will be fine.  I will followup with touching the floor stain up then apply 2 coats of oil poly to the floors. Mimwax advised it was ok to use oil over polycrylic when sufficent drying time was allowed. It will wear better. On the ceiling I used a water based exterior enamel in  a whitewash or pickled effect and then the  Polycrylic on top. 

Mimwax Polycrylic is costly at about $42 a gallon.  I think Zinnser has one out there also but I haven't tried it.

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on February 03, 2009, 11:08:24 PM
Quote from: Beavers on February 03, 2009, 06:43:27 PM

I found 1x4 T&G Douglas Fir for about half the price of the 2x6 stuff.  If my joists are 2x12 16" o.c. would there be any problem with using the 1x4's ? 

It just occurred to me that most of the 1x T&G I've seen around here is smooth on the side where the bevel is. However, it is rough sawn on the other side, the side that you would walk on, unless you wanted those bevels on the floor side.  ??? Then the ceiling would be rough.

I have seen some smooth both sides, but because of the extra planing it was maybe 5/8" thick at best.

I don't know how much flex you'd have on a main floor of 1x material with 16" OC joists. The T&G will strengthen the floor but I wonder how it would work with a big heavy refrigerator, or a big sofa with three 250 lb guys sitting on it.   ???
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on February 03, 2009, 11:33:48 PM
Usually it is doubled if 1x with the other layer running perpendicular or diagonal underneath and it may not be t&g going from old buildings I have seen..
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Beavers on February 05, 2009, 10:14:02 PM
Thanks Glenn, and Don.

I think I'll stick with 2x6...would hate have the fridge fall thru the floor just because I got cheap on the flooring.  d*
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on February 06, 2009, 12:46:09 AM
Quote from: Beavers on February 05, 2009, 10:14:02 PM




I think I'll stick with 2x6...would hate have the fridge fall thru the floor just because I got cheap on the flooring.  d*



There's nothing wrong with the double 1x flooring UNLESS you plan on spacing your joist the same way you would for 2x T&G.

  If you space your joist 16" OC the first  layer would go on the joist after you roll your joist and BEFORE you stand your walls . The second layer or in this case the finished flooring would be layed after you sheet rocker and painted , so during the finishing phase of construction.

Considerations decided  to use 2x6 T&G  and IIRC she spaced her joist 24"  OC. She can confirm that.

BUT the point is the 2X stock was intended to be used over a wider spaced floor framing system, we used to space the joist 32" OC and used 4x6 or 8" "joist" under the joist where other beams running 90 deg. to the floor joist . So the 2x6 T&G floors mainly where done that way. Then at finishing time sub flooring and / or carpet was layed over as the finished floor.

Most houses have  3/4"  T&G plywood or OSB subflooring today with joist spaced 16" OC or 19.25" OC , or some times 24" OC.

So I would NOT abandon your plan until you decide what exactly you plan on doing for joist.

Your being lead down a path that Glenn and Don did NOT intend to lay out.   

So back up and rethink what choices your making before you rule things out.           
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on February 06, 2009, 02:08:55 AM
I didn't know the finer points on that. Just remember working on a few in remodels in the past.
Thanks, PEG.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on February 06, 2009, 02:19:31 AM
 d*  yeah! My parents old house had strip hardwood floors laid over 1x plain square edge boards. Approx 100 years old now. The subfloor was plain 1x boards laid at an angle across the joists. The finish floor was maple hardwood T&G... not sure exactly how thick, but it was fairly hefty. The floor joists were probably about 16" OC, going by a poor memory. Doesn't seem like they were 24"   ??? ???

I never thought of using that 1x material that was mentioned, over a subfloor. That would work well. Of course, I think what clouded my thought process was the use of T&G for the floor/ceiling in a loft floor. There you would want to avoid the use of a two layered floor. MTL.

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on February 06, 2009, 09:16:52 AM
"Considerations decided  to use 2x6 T&G  and IIRC she spaced her joist 24"  OC. She can confirm that."

Yes, my floor joists are 24" OC, to the best of my "abilities"  :)  ....which are somewhat improved since then.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on February 17, 2009, 12:01:22 AM
The stairs have been an agonizingly slow process, but a few more days and they will be done....except handrails and other frufru.

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/HPIM1068.jpg)

Yep the winders are temporary 3/4 ply...but not for long!  They are amazingly natural to walk, I was worried they'd feel weird or cramped.

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/HPIM1070.jpg)

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/HPIM1067.jpg)

Life keeps taking up all my time!   :D

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on February 17, 2009, 12:36:03 AM
Lookin' good there young lady. :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Dog on February 17, 2009, 04:15:50 PM
Wow! Those stairs look awesome!  :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: rdzone on February 17, 2009, 07:23:26 PM
Your stairs look great.  I am going to have to keep referring to your pictures. I have been putting my stairs off for months as I am having a hard time wrapping my brain around the winder portion. ???  Any good tips that might save me some heartache and time?  [cool]

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on February 18, 2009, 10:05:25 AM
Any tips? Hmm, well.  I hired a guy to finish them because I couldn't seem to figure them out, but here's what I've deduced from the process.   ???

This place is 14' wide and the bottom of the ceiling joists are at 7'6".  The stud walls are 10'. This all has a bearing on where the stairs can go and how many steps it takes to get to the second floor.

I had to get the first set of risers to fit on a wall space between the front door and the bathroom wall. 
So if I'd placed the front door about 2 feet further away from the bathroom wall, making more outside wall space for the first set of risers, I would not have needed winders where the landing could have been.

As it is, when the front door opens to 90 degrees, the knob touches the post at the bottom of the stairs.  That doesn't sound very important until one tries to get an appliance or something through the door space, and the hinged edge of the door is in the way because it cannot be opened to 180 degrees. Dumb luck that I have another outside door which will open 180 degrees.

So tip one, give yourself enough feet of outside wall for the first set of risers or you may be facing both logistical and code problem.  I doubt the winders in my cabin are code from what I've read on this forum.  The riser heights and tread widths I ended up with are code, but not the winders, I think.  There has been some discussion on this forum about landings and winders which is much more clear on this subject there may even be some drawing/pictures.  Anyway, I wouldn't encourage using the pics I've posted as anything more than a concept for any stairs you might plan.

Second, because of the 10' wall height, it is possible to design oneself into a potential head banging situation depending on how high the landing is. If the landing is too high off the floor, a tall person could be ducking between the rafters to turn the corner.  Since I'm planning on drywalling the ceiling up there, ducking between rafters won't be an option.  Turns out there is sufficient headroom on these stairs.

Third, the top of the stairs on these stairs is exactly at the center of the cabin.  The roof is 12/12.  Because of the 10' walls and the 12/12 pitch and the 7'6" ceiling down stairs, it is just barely ok.  As it is, I  have to turn left or right as soon as I step off the top of the stairs, or I'll walk into the roof as it slopes down to the other side of the cabin. 

This was something I didn't think about at all when we were cussing and discussing where to place the stairs.  Originally, he had the second set of risers ending more than half way across the ceiling of the cabin, and I argued hard to make him move (accordian) that second set of risers back so that the top of the stairs was at the centerline of the cabin (7 feet from either wall).  I argued the point only because the bathroom door downstairs was going to end up crowding my ideas for the kitchen layout.  If I hadn't won that argument, the top of the stairs would have been problematic in that there would not have been room to step off the stairs without banging my head (which is less than 6' off the ground) into the roof of the opposite side of the cabin.  So I just got lucky. 

Frankly, I don't know how things would have turned out if the first floor ceiling had been 8'.  If I could do this all again, I'd seriously reconsider 12' stud walls on a 14 x 24.   I really did think about them, but decided on the 10' walls for various reasons, none of which included how to get stairs in.

I like the fact that the two posts at the top of the stairs are slotted at the top and fit around the roof beam.  I don't have collar ties up there, and because the ceiling joists were cut to make the opening for the stairs, I began to wonder about the walls wanting to spread in this area.  I think the posts supporting the roof beam will help to mitigate this.  However, they are a lot heavier than I imagined. I got to thinking about the floor, which had not been designed to manage this extra weight.  So, I got two big round cement pads and two cement piers with 4x4 holes in the top, and bought an 8' 6x6 PT piece of lumber.

I chiseled the ends of the 6x6 to fit into the sockets on the piers and cut it approximately in half.  This made two units of post and pier, each one was placed under the floor directly under those two posts that go all the way to the roof beam and bolted into the floor joists under the house.  So if the floor wants to sag from either the weight of the posts or the ceiling wanting to sag because of the ceiling joists not holding the walls together in the stairwell, it is less likely to occur.  I'll let you know in 25 years if this was overkill, but it made me feel more secure.

The fun part of all of this, however, is that under every step, except the bottom one are two pull-out drawers to take advantage of almost all of the "cubic feets" that are potentially lost under a stairs.  The space under the landing will be accessed by two bifold doors in the bathroom, and the space under the second set of risers is part of my kitchen pantry/storage.

I like the way they look too, and am pleased with the outcome, but some of it was good fortune, not good planning.  So, humbly, and with all the disclaimers emphasized, I hope this helps you.




Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Jens on February 19, 2009, 12:09:32 PM
If your ceiling height had been 8 feet, you would have needed 3 fewer risers, it usually ends up evening out.  I love the way they are looking.  I especially like the way the treads are let in to the stringers 3/4", and the corners have been lopped off, unique touches that clean up the 2x treads. 

As far as the 3/4 flooring goes, our house has been good for the last 80 years with only 3/4" t&g pine as sub and finish floor.  You do notice a bit of flex in the boards, but the joists are on 24" centers too.  They are pretty bouncy, but I think that is more because they are 2x8, 24" OC, spanning 11 feet.  When the dog scratches behind his ears, the floor bounces!  Gonna sister up to the joists to strengthen them.  It is up to you, whether you use subfloor or not.  I would use it, unless for the loft, or second floor and I wanted the underside exposed, but in that case, I would probably use 32" spacing, and 2x material.  Just my 2c worth.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on February 20, 2009, 01:02:27 AM
"If your ceiling height had been 8 feet, you would have needed 3 fewer risers" 

I'll have to think about this.  If my ceiling is 7'6".....I'm thinking I'd would have 1 less riser than at 8'....hmmm.  Anyway, it's done and I can run up and down them now as much as I want.   ;D

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I especially like the way the treads are let in to the stringers 3/4", and the corners have been lopped off, unique touches that clean up the 2x treads."

I can't take any credit for that workmanship, except as a "director".  The guy I hired did it all, and I'm glad he put up with my 60 gazillion questions during the process.  He earned his pay.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

2 x 6 t&g for the loft floor is what I'm planning.  Got lots of practice on the first floor, don't want to waste the one area of OJT I get a chance to repeat.  Every step in this project has been "going where this woman's never gone before"

Starting March my hours get cut, and of course, correspondingly, the wages.  So more time for sweat equity and less money to do it with.  I have my fingers crossed.  Silly me, I thought I'd be done by now......yep, just silly.

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Windpower on February 20, 2009, 09:14:25 AM
"Has it been gouged up much during construction or gotten any water damage?"

No water damage thanks to the dire warnings about how and why to protect it from the members of this forum."


Why do you need to protect it from the members of this forum ?

Is there something I should know about the members of this forum....





jk

;D



great looking project

I like the pine(?) poles with the bark peeled off -- are they finished with Varathane of something ?
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on February 20, 2009, 01:27:42 PM
"Why do you need to protect it from the members of this forum ?

Is there something I should know about the members of this forum...."

I had to think about how to answer this as I threw the horses over the fence some hay.   d*

The short answer is yes.  As for specifics, hang in there, it will come to you.  8)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on February 20, 2009, 01:50:05 PM
Quote from: considerations on February 20, 2009, 01:27:42 PM

I had to think about how to answer this as I threw the horses over the fence some hay.   d*


Been on the West Coast toooooo long. rofl rofl
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on February 20, 2009, 02:35:04 PM
Oh, Redover....Having had a chance to explore a goodly portion of this wonderful continent, I'm pretty sure this is where I need to be....I fit.   There are lots of really beautiful places elsewhere, but...the combination of climate, wildness, the people...its all good.  I guess it is like that for a lot of people, they get intwined with an area in ways that make other settings seem interesting, but not "home". 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on February 20, 2009, 02:42:45 PM
"I like the pine(?) poles with the bark peeled off -- are they finished with Varathane of something ?"

Whoops, sorry, forgot to address this.  They are cedar, the bark is peeled off, but they don't know they are dead yet, so they are still full of moisture.  I haven't put any finish on them, because I think they should be drier before I do that. 

So far, all I have done to them is wipe them down with a solution of bleach diluted in water because they started growing things, fuzzy grey fur to be exact.  I will put something on them at some point, but not just yet. 

I'd like them to stay that reddish gold color and cedar will age to grey over time if not coated with something. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on February 20, 2009, 03:44:55 PM
CF I noticed that in one of the pictures that the bark is still on the top of one of the post.  I think I would take it off while there is still moisture between the two layers.  If not it will be hard to take off later.  If you have a draw knife it works best. If not just a hatchet will work by slipping it under the bark then using a hammer to the hatchet it should just work under and to the top. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Jens on February 20, 2009, 09:08:07 PM
yeah, I thought you had said that your ceiling was 10' d*  I think cedar stays pretty natural in color if kept out of UV rays.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on February 20, 2009, 10:40:31 PM
 Hummm we either need reading lessons or glasses or better writing skills , I'm leaning toward the better reading , or more careful reading of the posts. 

  NOT those POSTS for people who may think I'm referring to the Cedar ones rofl

  Considerations remember to focus on how much it rains and how it's ALWAYS cloudy every day. You need to be more honest with folks about that or more may try to move here. Focus on that daily never ending rain in the future. ;)


On those post , yes this time the Cedar ones. I'd seriously consider applying  a oil or maybe some Shellac to slow down the drying process to maybe reduce the amount of checking they will do, not eliminate it but hopefully reduce the depth and width of said checking. And NOT the checking you do at the bank for those speed readers eh d*

Maybe Benite , maybe the Shellac the beauty of the Shellac would be the ability to wipe down the posts with alcohol to remove the product. The Benite would over time , say  6 months or a year would be pretty much gone as well .

But left raw they will , especially once the wood stove is going more often , (to drive out the chill from the daily rain ,  ;)  )will dry those posts to quickly and you will get some radical checking.


It's coming right along for a part time , never built a building before.

On the over the horse throw him some hay , are you a French speaking person? I know back in R.I. where I'm from , when I was a kid , the older , mainly French speaking  adults who learned some English could really inject words out of order.   A "Up the stairs you throw me my hat",  "We park the cars side by each" , and a few other mixed up ways that French nouns , adverbs are placed in a sentence played hell with the local language mix. Sort of  a Eng-ench language.

At work we have Mexican laborer who says he speaks fluent Spang-lish  :)

So are you from back east or from up north in the  French Canadian sections of Canada? Or was it just a fun way to mix up the other poster??


 
 

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on February 20, 2009, 10:42:55 PM
 Oh ya and remember to mention ALL  the rain we get , daily , if not more often.  d* The rain that is , not to mention it more often but thats not a bad idea either really  d*
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on February 20, 2009, 11:11:40 PM
Hey,  PEG's from Washington and he's a fun guy. :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on February 21, 2009, 02:55:24 AM
"So are you from back east or from up north in the  French Canadian?"

No - but Windpower caught me using some backa--wards grammar.  When I went back and looked it was clear that I was not clear.....(oops did it again).  Anyway the crack about throwing the horses over the fence was just acknowledgment that he was right. (Dad taught English, I know better).

I'm a 12th generation American, a true Heinz 57.  Redover's right about the West Coast, I was born and raised on it. 

And, oh yeah - it rains way too much here, a veritable mud hole, moss for lawns instead of grass, frogs in my well and on the window glass.  Slugs, a regular zoo of slugs,  banana slugs, brown ones and then, before I forget, the infamous Olympic racing slug.  Black as good licorice and moves like greased...well um ok they're really fast as slugs go. 

All around is trees trees and more trees, everywhere you look. Can't see through them. Cant hardly walk through them, cause the ground under them is covered man high with ferns and salmonberries and huckleberries and salal and waitaminutes and hea--- knows what else!

Oh and spiders, lots of them and misquitoes and bats.  Then there are the cougars and the bears and bobcats and coyotes.  Oh and mountain beavers, gotta really watch out for them being host to the world's biggest flea and all.

Infernal amount of birds. Great flocks of little tiny ones, always looking for a handout at the feeders.  Those frenetic rodney dangerfield quail, how i WISH they would just settle down. The stellar bandit bluejays come in imitating hawks to scare the little ones off the feeders.  They've got their nerve.  I wouldn't want to leave out the hawks, owls and eagles.  They always out hunting and ambushing little furry things.  Oh yeah and there are these wood peckers, they are big, big as chickens and have this absolutely maniacal laugh, makes your hair stand up.

Then there is that great smelly ocean. That salt water makes "things" grow in the sand.  Yep right there in the sand, little creatures with shells that squirt water at you, just step close and whoosh, up these little jets come, get your pant legs wet.  There are bizarre creatures that crawl and swim in the tide pools, and squishy things that look like flowers till you touch them and then they curl up in to little green balls of goo.  Not to mention the red and  green slimy leaves of "stuff" that floats around in the waves on the beach.  And the trees, the great logs  that come crashing up onto the beaches during a storm and get stranded in great piles. So inconvienent to crawl over.  And bones, great big mammoth bones and tusks, just left sticking out of the bluffs. I don't know how they could be so messy, leaving those things just lying around.

The fog comes in thick and the ship's horns moan across the straits. Keeps me up at night.  Then there are the Canadian geese, honking and whooshing in great squadrons overhead. 

Boots are a must, as is a mudroom which is used liberally and literally.

The sun is a shock when unfettered by clouds. It boils down on tender human hides. You can't even break a sweat working outside between September and July.   

Greenhouses are really green if you don't powerwash the mold off every year. 

And yes, of course, the rain.  We probably get about 45 inches a year, which doesn't seem an extraordinary amount....unless it drizzles for 2 dark weeks for a 1/2" to be recorded...takes a long time to accumulate 45" when its only kinda sorta raining.  The Inuit have about 50 names for different kinds of snow.  We have the same expanded repetoire for ways to describe precipitation.  I'll spare you.

The only folks out here are plain old rednecks, work with their hands, go to church, protect their own.  I just dont' see how the box stores and the urban growth boundaries will ever get out here with all the opposition.   

People who live in Sequim call the "west end" of the Olympic Peninsula "demographically undesireable".  They are right, abosolutely, bad place to hunker down, really have to work at it, get your hands dirty, break the occasional fingernail.


How'mi doing PEG? 


Ok, I'll oil the posts, or something.  I do not want them to check.  I do have a drawknife or two, and I'm working on the last of the bark.








Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on February 21, 2009, 11:42:58 PM
Quote from: glenn kangiser on February 20, 2009, 11:11:40 PM
Hey,  PEG's from Washington and he's a fun guy. :)

For Sassy,   a fungi - get it? hmm
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on February 22, 2009, 12:13:05 AM
Quote from: glenn kangiser on February 21, 2009, 11:42:58 PM


Quote from: glenn kangiser on February 20, 2009, 11:11:40 PM


Hey,  PEG's from Washington and he's a fun guy. :)



For Sassy,   a fungi - get it? hmm



Oh brother   ::)     Don't quit your day job there kid  [rofl2] rofl heh


 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on February 22, 2009, 12:18:09 AM


The flip side of that is maybe your audience ( that would be us-ins) is to stew------pit to get your stellar jokes :-[ :-\   [slap]

Maybe my brains rusted from all this rain  ???   ;)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on February 22, 2009, 12:45:16 AM
Sorry bout that, PEG.

[rofl2]

...and I thought Sassy was the only one that didn't get the punch line... d*
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on February 22, 2009, 12:57:52 AM
Quote from: glenn kangiser on February 22, 2009, 12:45:16 AM




...and I thought Sassy was the only one that didn't get the punch line... d*



We may never know how many missed it, maybe a poll?  But yanno when you have to explain a joke , to anyone , it may have been either not funny at all , or to cryptic.

Or the to stew-pit part  :-X   
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on February 22, 2009, 01:00:34 AM
"Maybe my brains rusted from all this rain"  

More rain coming.  I think our last sunny day for a while was today PEG.  At least I found the leaks in the water line before it started raining again (yup, there were two).  

Looking for a leak in a water line is impossible when it's raining.  





Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on February 22, 2009, 01:13:36 AM
Crimoney, PEG.  I thought I was just deep... [waiting]
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Dog on February 22, 2009, 09:55:24 AM
Quote from: considerations on February 21, 2009, 02:55:24 AM


Then there is that great smelly ocean. That salt water makes "things" grow in the sand.  Yep right there in the sand, little creatures with shells that squirt water at you, just step close and whoosh, up these little jets come, get your pant legs wet.  There are bizarre creatures that crawl and swim in the tide pools, and squishy things that look like flowers till you touch them and then they curl up in to little green balls of goo.  Not to mention the red and  green slimy leaves of "stuff" that floats around in the waves on the beach.  And the trees, the great logs  that come crashing up onto the beaches during a storm and get stranded in great piles. So inconvienent to crawl over.  And bones, great big mammoth bones and tusks, just left sticking out of the bluffs. I don't know how they could be so messy, leaving those things just lying around.


rofl



Considerations...you are quite the creative writer! That was great!






Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on February 23, 2009, 01:12:25 AM
Writing for fun and writing for a living are worlds apart....that was pure fun.  And I don't lie well, I do love it here.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on February 26, 2009, 02:53:07 PM
Let there be light! 

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/HPIM1074small.jpg)

Now I can start the upstairs flooring!  Yup, it snowed again last night.  This has been the snowiest winter here since 2000.  Fascinating.

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/HPIM1072.jpg)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Sassy on February 26, 2009, 03:33:59 PM
Looking good!  Are you going to have to order a custom window for the loft?  That will be really nice.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on February 26, 2009, 04:05:40 PM
"Are you going to have to order a custom window for the loft?"

No, the Glass is already in there.  It's a great big piece of thick tempered glass I just happened to have hanging around.  It used to be the top of my dining room table and its been in a crate for 10 years.

The idea just looked so good on paper I couldn't resist trying it out.  I figured if didn't look good, I still had a rectangular opening in the studs to put a "normal" window into.

I know, it's not double, but I will acquire a rectangular (read "less expensive") storm window to apply on the inside during the winter months.   

Guess we have one more world class pack rat on this forum... ::)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on March 17, 2009, 05:29:31 PM
Flooring for the loft arrived today.  One more baby step. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Beavers on March 17, 2009, 06:54:10 PM
Quote from: considerations on March 17, 2009, 05:29:31 PM
Flooring for the loft arrived today.  One more baby step. 

[cool]

Looking forward to seeing some more pics!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on March 17, 2009, 09:04:25 PM
CF maybe you told us before and I missed it but what are you putting down in the loft?
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on March 18, 2009, 11:51:14 PM
"what are you putting down in the loft?"

2 x 6 T&G SPF. 

I have to get serious though and decide what to coat the bottom side of it with before I install. 

I remember someone (you, Redover?) saying that was the way to go, and it makes sense.  Then there is the drying times to consider....always the considering...considerations....now you have a glimpse of where the name comes from.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on March 19, 2009, 12:19:55 AM
CF stick to the Water based. It dries really fast and recoat 15-20 min.  I used a white latex semi-gloss for the ceiling and sort of wiping it down to give the pickle finish.  Then used water poly later that day.  Time consuming though as you can only set up to do so many at one time ( three sets of saw horses) There will be no traffic on the ceiling (normally)  ;D so wear shouldn't be a factor.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on March 26, 2009, 10:07:59 PM
One loft has flooring.  One catwalk and the other loft to go.  No handrails or edge finish yet, but progress again, finally. 

The local building supply has a 20% off everything in the store sale tomorrow, except power tools and lumber and stuff already on sale, but I've got my eye on the wiring........and those GFI GHI (whatever), "Special" outlet thingies for bathrooms and kitchens.  :D
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on March 26, 2009, 10:18:16 PM
GFCI

and for outdoors. Remember they feed through, one can protect the balance of the circuit.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on April 06, 2009, 05:35:26 PM
I've gone from walking to crawling...but the lofts are almost done.

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/0406091320b.jpg)


(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/0406091320a.jpg)


(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/0406091320.jpg)

Next is exploring the mysteries of electrical. Woohoo!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on April 06, 2009, 08:44:30 PM
Hey! Looking good!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: ScottA on April 06, 2009, 10:01:53 PM
Wow that looks great.  :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Alasdair on April 07, 2009, 08:25:33 PM
nice job, looks really good  :D
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on April 07, 2009, 09:33:48 PM
Looks cool. :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Bishopknight on April 08, 2009, 12:20:02 PM
Looks excellent! Great job!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: jdhen on April 10, 2009, 09:29:48 PM
Considerations,
I've been following your progress with interest as my wife and I are finalizing our plans on a 14 x 34 based on the builders cottage.  You're doing a great job by the way! I notice that initially you were surprised by the walking room in the loft (per a post last December).  Then more recently when you were commenting on  your stairs you mention that you would likely do 12 ft sidewalls if you could do it over again.
Would you mind elaborating a bit more on that?  We were ready to do the 10ft sidewalls but since your comments we've been having second thoughts.  Is it just the trouble fitting the stairs in or is it now that you've had some time to move about the loft space you've decided that the headroom is causing you more trouble than you first thought?
Eagerly awaiting your thoughts!
Thanks,
Jesse
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on April 12, 2009, 12:35:38 AM
"Would you mind elaborating a bit more on that?  We were ready to do the 10ft sidewalls but since your comments we've been having second thoughts.  Is it just the trouble fitting the stairs in or is it now that you've had some time to move about the loft space you've decided that the headroom is causing you more trouble than you first thought?"

Hi Jesse - sure....here's what I've thought about. 
If you look at the most recent pics you can see that the top of the stairs is exactly in the middle of the loft floor - 7 ' from each long wall.  My stud walls are 10', the bottom of the first floor ceiling joists are at 7'6" and the joists and the loft flooring take up about 12" of wall height.  So I ended up with about 18" of vertical wall in the loft...then the ceiling starts sloping in. 

Where I can walk in the loft without bumping my head on the ceiling is a floor space about 5-6' wide and 14' long.  That isn't bad, its wider than I thought it would be....but if the walls were 2' taller, that "walkaround space" would be wider.   Now, I'm 5'7.  If I were taller, that space would be narrower.

I decided to put a door out onto a porch at one end of the loft. I have to have it custom made at 6'3 or make it less than a standard outdoor door width because of the slope of the roof.  Now that doesn't matter much to me except for the costs, because I'm shorter than 6'3". Custom doors cost more, even when there is less door.  Taller loft walls = standard outside door for the loft.

The stairs are a little harder to explain, but yes, I think 12 ' walls would have made them easier to fit in.   I didn't see any way to build them except in an L shape. The object being to get enough steps  into the stairs to get up to the loft without ending up with something that was more like a ship's ladder than a staircase. Code compliance was the goal.  I don't think i made it. The extra risers in the landing probably throw me out of compliance.  There are a lot of folk on this forum a lot smarter than me about this, and an easy answer for code stairs in a 14' wide plan may well be available. What I have I'm happy with.

One leg of the "L" is 7' long and runs from the outside wall to the center of the cabin. It can't be any longer than 7' or when you step forward off the top of the stairs, you'll bang your head on the opposite ceiling.  As it is, I must turn left or right immediately.

The other leg of the L is the one going up the long wall of the cabin.

Back to the wall height. The risers along the long wall of the cabin get you to the landing, then you turn the corner to go up the rest of the stairs. The steps have to "rise" enough to meet that landing, but cannot go so high that you bang your head on the rafters as your head "rises" above the loft floor.  Your feet are in one place but your head is a lot higher than that.

Taller loft walls would mean the first set of risers could extend longer along the long wall of the cabin, rise higher before you create a landing(without banging your head) , and maybe even shorten the distance that second leg of the "L" extends into the loft.  Shorter top leg of the "L" = more head room and tha ability to step forward comfortably off the stairs when you reach the loft.

I hope that was more clear than mud.  Bottom line is, that at least in these respects, and certainly for someone taller than me, an extra couple feet of wall height in the loft would probably make things a little more manuverable.  To me, its still a palace compared to the 5th wheel.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: jdhen on April 12, 2009, 10:37:09 AM
So, you're not ready to tell someone just starting out not to do 10 ft sidewalls and go directly to 12 ft.  Sounds like there are some challenges but they're not insurmountable.  Do I have that right?
With 10ft sides you have less space but if you go to 12 ft why not just use the Victorian plans or better yet a 20ft wide 1 1/2 story!  Where do you stop?  How much space is too much or too little?
These are the questions I'm struggling with.  We've always lived in small spaces so that's not going to be a stretch.  I just don't want to get to dry in stage and say "damn, we shoulda done 12 ft sides". 
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
I have a few more questions if you don't mind.  Just want to clarify- are your studs on 24 inch centers?  It's difficult to tell from the pics and I don't remember if you mentioned it earlier in your thread. Also- the loft joist over the window.  Since it doesn't have a wall member to attach to how did you secure it?  Some sort of blocking?  I can't tell from the pictures.
OK, one more for now.  How high off the floor is the first landing of the stairs?
Thanks and sorry for all the questions.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on April 12, 2009, 12:53:12 PM
I believe considerations used 24" OC stud spacing. The picture in this message seems to bear that out for the 24 foot length.
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=4499.msg63545#msg63545

There are trade offs when using 24" OC studs.

First, of course, you must use 2x6 or larger lumber.

Second, if you plan on using drywall inside, then use 5/8" drywall as 1/2" will show waves. 1x T&G does not have this problem.

Third, with fewer studs the placement of your electrical receptacle and switch boxes is more limited.

There may be others but that's what rolls off the top of my head this morning.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Sassy on April 12, 2009, 02:33:34 PM
You're making some great progress, considerations  8)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on April 12, 2009, 08:07:15 PM
Quote from: jdhen on April 12, 2009, 10:37:09 AM
So, you're not ready to tell someone just starting out not to do 10 ft sidewalls and go directly to 12 ft. 

C: 'Course I'm not gonna tell you what to do.  :D  I think most folks building a 14 x 24 are calling it a cabin and a ladder to the loft is no big deal. I making it a permanent home, so there are puzzles to figure out about things like stairs....plus, I've never done this before, so I guess a lot.  ???

Sounds like there are some challenges but they're not insurmountable.  Do I have that right?

C: I've never bumped into anything that is insurmountable...so yes, you're right.

With 10ft sides you have less space but if you go to 12 ft why not just use the Victorian plans or better yet a 20ft wide 1 1/2 story!  Where do you stop?  How much space is too much or too little?

C: Hmmm why?   $$$$$$$ + Time = 14 x 24 with 10' walls for me.  I stop at the end of each paycheck.  I have plenty of space outside, just want a roof over a warm fire, bed, and place to park my bum when nature calls. 

These are the questions I'm struggling with.  We've always lived in small spaces so that's not going to be a stretch.  I just don't want to get to dry in stage and say "damn, we shoulda done 12 ft sides". 

C: If you feel that statement comin on, have your partner smack you. Lean forward, not back.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

C: Thanks, its fun.

I have a few more questions if you don't mind.  Just want to clarify- are your studs on 24 inch centers? 

C: Yes

It's difficult to tell from the pics and I don't remember if you mentioned it earlier in your thread. Also- the loft joist over the window.  Since it doesn't have a wall member to attach to how did you secure it?  Some sort of blocking?  I can't tell from the pictures.

C: C: Its fully secured at the other end, firmly attached to the loft floor with glue and nails.....the end you see over the window is resting on the ledger.  I have another window in mind just above that joist and in the wall (ok a very small window).  When its time to frame in for that little window, I'll finish securing it.  It was really torqued, kind of in an S curve, so I left it free, and got it straight, pretty much by blocking and bracing it before attaching the loft floor.  Downstairs the ceiling looked so nice and linear till your eye landed on that joist, it really stuck out.  Now it's fixed.


OK, one more for now.  How high off the floor is the first landing of the stairs?

CF: Hmmm. forgot. I'm going out to do chores, I'll measure it and let you know.

Thanks and sorry for all the questions.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on April 12, 2009, 08:15:14 PM
Quote from: MountainDon on April 12, 2009, 12:53:12 PM
I believe considerations used 24" OC stud spacing. The picture in this message seems to bear that out for the 24 foot length.
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=4499.msg63545#msg63545

C: He's right

There are trade offs when using 24" OC studs.

First, of course, you must use 2x6 or larger lumber.

C: Check

Second, if you plan on using drywall inside, then use 5/8" drywall as 1/2" will show waves. 1x T7G does not have this problem.

C: Say again?  1 x 7 T&G ?  I really dread drywalling, and please let me know if this is something I can be shopping for to learn about.

Third, with fewer studs the placement of your electrical receptacle and switch boxes is more limited.

C:  Hmmm, I think if there is a "have to have" placement issue, I would stick a "-----" stud in the place where the box or receptacle is needed.  Sorry I learned a lot of stud names, but don't know what you would call this one. Jack/king/hmmm Don?  How about "fudge stud"?

There may be others but that's what rolls off the top of my head this morning.

Don knows what he's talking about - I read his posts carefully.  He has excellent knowledge.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on April 12, 2009, 08:16:02 PM
Thanks Sassy.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on April 12, 2009, 08:31:15 PM
... big fingers, small keys...  ???

That should have read "1x T&G" as in '1 X your choice of width, T&G'


I like that "fudge stud". I used one, sort of. I really wanted a receptacle more or less between 2 studs. I nailed in a horizontal 2x4 and attached the box to it. Using the 2x4 in place of a 2x6 like the rest of the wall framing allowed placing some insulation behind it.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on April 12, 2009, 09:23:05 PM
Re the drywall.  I found a couple good references to drywalling. Right now I haven't a clue where I parked them; they are not where they should be.  d* 

How high are you interior walls where drywall will go?

The pros will lay the sheetrock with the horizontal being the long direction of the sheet. They will use 4x10 and 4x12. I believe there may be even longer sheets; not sure and I wouldn't/couldn't work with them myself. The difficult part about using the sheets horizonatally is finishing any square edges that butt together. (The short sides, 4 ft. are cut square, whereas the long sides are usually tapered to make for easier taping and joint finishing. The longer sheets are also difficult to impossible for solo work, IMO.

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on April 12, 2009, 09:52:10 PM
Don to make it work better on the butt joints I take the utility knife and bevel the edge of both just slightly so there are no paper edges meeting against each other.  Then it is just like the rest. Taper, Taper & Taper.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on April 12, 2009, 10:24:52 PM
"How high are you interior walls where drywall will go?"

Hmmm well Top o' Floor to bottom of ceiling joists is 7'6", but then its open beam, so another 9" and a bit to the bottom of the loft floor.  Not sounding like standard widths.......  :-\ 

I know, how about really wide trim around the ceiling... you know, just sort of cover the gap?  Then again, there's T&G...

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on April 13, 2009, 12:16:23 AM
You could use scraps of drywall to fill in and then cover it all with a 1x of appropriate width.

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on April 17, 2009, 03:41:08 PM
Stairs...

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/Stairs.jpg)

Crude drawing, but readable, I think.

Hope this helps
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: jdhen on April 18, 2009, 08:11:54 PM
Thank you, Considerations.  That is very helpful!
Jesse
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on May 08, 2009, 09:15:39 AM
Yikes, I lurk almost every day, but haven't put anything on this thread for awhile.  I've been a little busy.  The upstairs is wired, but when it came time to do the downstairs, there were so many building materials and scraps stacked up against the walls, that it was obviously impossible to do with any effectiveness.  So....I had salvaged the roofs of two of those tarp covered carports I had when I first came out here.  They "blew up" in the wind storm of 2006, and I didn't try to put them back up, but had saved the undamaged parts, mostly the roofs.  I had enough to make one roof from the two.  So this time, i dug holes and set PT 4 x 4's in cement, then had the guy I've been working with drill holes in the top rail.  I set the round metal ribs of the roof in the holes, and mega-strapped the roof down.  For now, that roof is tarped, because its been monsooning here, but I want to rib it with wood and put sheet metal on it before winter.  The upshot of this little project is that now I have two rows of pallets running down the length of a 10 x 20 covered space with all the scraps in bins and garbage cans and the building materials neatly stacked on the pallets, and the 1st floor wiring moving along nicely. 

In the middle of all of this I rescued (abducted) the sole surviving 3 week old or so kitten from a feral cat who had hidden this little noisy bit of fur in one of the sheds.  So for about a week i was up every three hours at night with a "baby" and warm milk.  Fortunately that part of the process is over, and at least one of us is sleeping through the night.  My old male cat is not pleased, so the kitten lives in a large bird cage (think aviary) until he quits looking at her in that predatory sort of way.  I didn't plan this little adventure, but compost happens.

Anyway, I'm kinda stuck on the bathroom heating thing.  I probably should have some sort of "little" heat in there, the only access to the heating sources being through the door, and the bathroom is on the windward side of the house, so I'm thinking in the winter it could get a little sharp in there....but...the space is limited, as is the electrical resource.   One of those little in wall electric heaters can suck a lot of juice, and the smallest propane vented heaters I've seen so far don't look like they would do well in an alcove...I've looked at marine propane heat also, and the smallest I've seen sticks out into the room about 6-3/8"..... maybe I'll just brave the goosebumps, but since I'm wiring now, a solution would be nice to incorporate into the plan, rather that doing something after the fact.  Any ideas?
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: John Raabe on May 08, 2009, 10:05:35 AM
If you have the electrical capacity (which you probably do) I would put in a simple (1500 to 2000 watt) wall heater with its own thermostat. Leave them turned off except when you want the extra boost. They aren't expensive to run or buy and heat up quick.

http://homerepair.about.com/od/heatingcoolingrepair/ss/elec_htr_types_2.htm
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on May 08, 2009, 11:29:42 AM
I'm facing somewhat the same situation with the cabin. Off grid power doesn't take kindly to resistance heating for long periods. I'm hoping the 36" wide doorway. left open, will allow natural convection warming. Over the winter when we stayed up there a couple days at a time the little bathroom space did warm pretty good.  ???
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on May 08, 2009, 02:52:46 PM
Consideration I am not real sure of your floor plan but is there an existing wall of the bathroom that joins to the livingroom where your stove will be.  You may be able to put a grated 4"-6" wall fan.  Sorth of like a computer fan which doesn't require much juice.  Just be transfering heat from the other room.  It seems to me that this might be a good alternative.  No obstructions in the room and the low wattage would not drain your power. Haven't looked on line but there has to be something out there to use like this.

Something along thes lines.


http://www.airshack.com/store/index.cfm?fuseaction=getItem&item=BRO-512M

http://www.wamhomecenter.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=2140&idcategory=0

Or you could just mount a ceiling exhaust fan in the wall with a decorative grate on the exhaust side.   
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on May 10, 2009, 12:04:56 AM
"You may be able to put a grated 4"-6" wall fan....Or you could just mount a ceiling exhaust fan in the wall with a decorative grate on the exhaust side."

Hmmm, now there's a thought!  I made a circuit for a little electric heater like John illustrated.  I had looked at them before posting, but, after all the work to lower electrical consumption, I wired for it reluctantly.  It's really close to over the door....I'm going to look at the situation again. 

Thanks, all of you, for the ideas. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: smcdaniel345 on May 11, 2009, 08:42:19 PM
I know I'm a little late in this post - but I have a tendency to linger (and linger some more) before saying anything.  I really like your stairs and the way you tucked the stove up in them.  That's how I want mine to end up.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Dog on May 17, 2009, 10:16:14 AM
Wow! That's so cool how you rescued that kitten. New friend for life! Hopefully your other cat will stop being jealous eventually and they'll become good companions!   
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on May 18, 2009, 01:15:00 AM
Well the old man(cat) is still disgusted, but at least the predatory gleam is gone from his eye.

That Mazybird of a mother cat left a littermate at the neighbor's as well. She just pops them out and drops them off wherever.  Beats raising them I suppose.

"I really like your stairs and the way you tucked the stove up in them."

Thanks, this is going to be a year round residence, so it seemed the best way to preserve floor space.

Got another door in.  2 down, 2 to go.  Stuffed all the little electrical boxes with switches and plugs....Don't care much for those GFI/GCFI's...whatever.  They're almost as deep as the boxes.  The breaker box is in and yellow spagetti wires all over the place..I wrote little notes all over them so I'd know what they are supposed to connect to.  I don't think the water or propane will be nearly so complicated. 

Broke my camera, so no pics for now.   :-[

I don't like not having a camera.

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on May 29, 2009, 09:13:10 AM
Not a lot going on these days.  It's fiscal budget season, and I'm buried in numbers. ergh.
I have 3 of the 4 doors in, and my "breeze way" theory worked, I'm tickled with that outcome.

The stair hand rails are almost done, those will be worth a pic when finished.  They are from contorted branches I found in the woods.  Too bad I can't find a drywall tree, I loved the  cost of material.

Most of the outside electrical parts, except the wires, have been purchased, no trenches yet.

I'm working on finishing up the woodbox that the stove sits on so I can get it placed and measure for stove pipe. ($$$ kaching!!)

The main work, while this good weather holds is devoted to insulating the floor, probably the rottenest job I've engaged in so far.  :-\ Should have hired a contortionist.

The kitten is now "Joey" 'cause she spends a lot of time acting like a baby kangaroo in pockets, wool winter hats, or just under my bathrobe.  Mr. Blinkin (the old cat) has decided to stand down from his heightened DEFCON status, and may yet learn to play again. In the mean time, he's teaching her some manners.  My eyes bugged out the first time he pinned her, but he was delivering a message, not a beating.  Whew. 

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on May 29, 2009, 06:10:51 PM
Every project has some slow or down time.  The longer you work on it the longer the down times seem to last.  But then you get energized again and go at it.  

On the wood box had you considered making it a drawer type. Meaning to use heavy drawer slides and put it behind a set of doors.  That way you could load it up and shove it under the platform and when you needed wood just pull it out.  Just a thought.

Most of the time animals will adjust to each other.  My daughter's cat had kittens and we left them in a large carrier next to the dog cage.  One night when the dog was loose my DW yelled the dog has got one of the kittens down.  I ran but that wasn't the case.  He had taken three into his house for his own to raise.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on May 30, 2009, 08:53:15 AM
"On the wood box had you considered making it a drawer type."

Yes, I had planned to do so for the cast iron, but hadn't thought about it for the wood. Good thought.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on June 05, 2009, 05:24:41 AM
Considerations it looks like you had some spam with your coffee this morning also.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on June 05, 2009, 08:15:51 AM
Add some eggs and pilot bread...not so bad.

Where does this stuff come from anyway?
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on June 05, 2009, 02:37:28 PM
I banned and removed him  - that one was from Australia.

They are getting above our highest filter - seems they must do it in person.  I'm not sure.  So far only a few per week.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on June 18, 2009, 12:58:28 PM
Came up for air.... here's a few things going on around the place:
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/BuildingMaterialStorage.jpg)

Don't kid yourself, this is about the most organized I've ever been.
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/BuildingMaterialStorage02.jpg)

Current project...insulating under the floor.  Roxul and bird netting.  Great job if you are a contortionist.
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/InsulatingUnderTheFloor2.jpg)

Just another angle
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/InsulatingUnderTheFloor.jpg)

There are other things really hopping around here...have to stop and enjoy a little.
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/Iris.jpg)

And little Joey is growing up
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/Joey.jpg)

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: secordpd on June 18, 2009, 01:19:02 PM
Hi Considerations, I've been reading your posts for a while and it was you that made me decide I could build my own home, not just sheds and decks.

What did you use for the 'rafters' on your material storage shed?  It looks like pcv pipes?(like they use in greenhouses alot).

Also where did you get the Roxul insulation, I just saw that on TV, it was a show about all the new stuff at the International Building Show.  I did a search, found the co. but it sounded like you could only get in Canada.  That stuff is suppose to be awesome, fire proof to something like a million degrees  ;D , repels water and mold.

Luv your home - it's so cool, and congrats on a tremendous job!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on June 18, 2009, 04:37:07 PM
considerations That's not unorganized.  You can still walk between the piles.  When you have to jump and climb over to get to the back then that's unorganized.  Good job.  Just wondering about the insulation. Is there a moisture barrier?
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: ScottA on June 18, 2009, 04:45:07 PM
Looks pretty tidy to me. Do you have a problem with cat hair now that it's getting warm or does the cat stay outside in the summer. We made our last cat stay outside but something ate him. Our new cat sleeps on the bed.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on June 18, 2009, 07:07:16 PM
"What did you use for the 'rafters' on your material storage shed?  It looks like pcv pipes?(like they use in greenhouses alot)."

I used what was left of 2 10' x 20' carports that I bought at Costco for about $200 each about 10 years ago.  They have enameled metal tubing for a frame, including "legs", and tarps for cover.  They both got pretty much wadded up in balls a few years ago when we had a major windstorm.  Being the heir apparent to the King of salvage (Glenn), I could not throw away the undamaged parts. I had enough for a roof.  Before the weather goes bad this year, I'll sheath it in metal.

"Also where did you get the Roxul insulation, I just saw that on TV, it was a show about all the new stuff at the International Building Show.  I did a search, found the co. but it sounded like you could only get in Canada.  That stuff is suppose to be awesome, fire proof to something like a million degrees, repels water and mold."

Well, not a million, but since it is rock/steel wool it takes a lot to melt it. I asked the local building materials supplier to order it.  It didn't cost any more than the fiberglass stuff. I was suprised.  I like it because of the fire retardant properties.  Its easy to handle and won't "settle", its just too dense. I'm doing the rest of the house with it too.  There is no "vapor barrier" on it, however.

"Luv your home - it's so cool, and congrats on a tremendous job!"  

Flattery will get you almost anywhere.

"Do you have a problem with cat hair now that it's getting warm or does the cat stay outside in the summer. We made our last cat stay outside but something ate him. Our new cat sleeps on the bed."

Do I have to deal with cat hair?  Yes.  They're family, just furry.  In the winter I envy them. They don't get to walk on my sewing machine or the counters and tables, but then neither do I.   :) 




Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on June 18, 2009, 07:22:46 PM
"Is there a moisture barrier?"

No, but there will be.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: secordpd on June 19, 2009, 10:00:59 AM
Thats great to hear roxul isn't much more expensive then fiberglass! :)    I'm in the same boat you were in a few months ago, my face pressed against the window watching the rain come down,  I completely disassembled my old deck(salvaged the best material for a small shed for my riding lawn mower) this past several days, and now I'm ready to start digging my footings and they are predicting rainy weather for another week!!!  I'm not happy, but what can you do...

So do you ever dig any razor clams out there on the coast?  I lived in Kent a couple years in the late 70's and had a friend that lived in Westport and we used to go to the seashore and use this contraption - I guess now they call it a 'clam gun'

(https://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu314/secordpd/colorguns.jpg)

You wiggle it in the mud, put your finger over the hole and pull it up, take your finger off the hole and the clam and mud slides out,  a couple beers and them babies pan fried was like heaven!!!

Course nothing like digging east coast clams, we use a clam fork out here...
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on June 20, 2009, 11:35:52 AM
Razor clams are now so protected that there are only a few days on the sea coast (not the Straits) when the thundering herds can show up for a "derby" of sorts. 

I'm a butter clam fan, frankly because I can drive about 1-1/2 mile and dig to my hearts content. The license is $14 for the year and then all I need is a tide table.  This weekend is supposed to be good minus tides.  I'm far enough west on the peninsula and facing the straits.  These beachs are seldom close because of contaminants and red tides.  Go east near Port Angeles and Sequim and on the Canal and they close all the time.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on June 20, 2009, 12:27:37 PM

Whats the R-value of that insulation?

Thats a odd shaped window on the gable end , it looks to be out of level , low on the right side , maybe the camera angle? You might check that before you start your siding.

The storage shed idea seems to be working!

Nice job , your at a "no show" point right now , keep plugging along and you'll get to some "show work" again.

G/L PEG   
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: John Raabe on June 20, 2009, 01:59:10 PM
http://www.rockwool.us/sw34086.asp

Looks to me to be good old fashioned rockwool insulation which has always been fireproof (being made of rocks!)

They have an interesting chart showing the melting temperature of mineral wool to be perhaps 1,880ºF while fiberglass will melt at a mere 1,300º or so. If the house reaches any temperature over the combustion point of the wood and plastics in the place (600-700º? (http://www.rapidfiremapping.com/how_fire_works1.html)) I'm unlikely to be worried about saving the insulation!

That aside, mineral wool (rock wool) can be a good choice where it is available. It is isn't as common as fiberglass so proximity to fabrication plants will likely determine local prices.

"Rockwool performance is higher than that of common fiberglass: approximately R-3.7 per inch, which amounts to high-density fiberglass batts or cellulose R-values.

Mineral wool has a higher density, and can provide better acoustical and insulating performance than fiberglass. Besides, mineral wool doesn't lose its insulating value when wet and has an outstanding resistance to fire."


The above info from here: http://www.house-energy.com/Insulation/Fiberglass-Mineral-Wool.htm
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on June 21, 2009, 12:12:40 AM
Good on the salvage, Considerations. :)

Things eat our cats around here too, but our dogs have slowed them down.  Our dogs also have considered eating the cats though.
[waiting]
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: secordpd on June 21, 2009, 12:46:34 AM
I've never had butter clams, just New England soft shelled steamers in lots of butter ;).  Your not to far from Forks,  I went camping and hiking  south of Forks, I think it was call Mosquito Creek.  We followed the creek out to the ocean then camped on the beach -  it was so BEAUTIFUL.  You really live in a piece of heaven Considerations.    I have a good friend that used to build log cabin homes on the islands, He lived on Orcas Island.  Visited him there - it was just incredible!!!  Hope to get out that way in the next few years.  My brother still lives out there in Enumclaw.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Sassy on June 21, 2009, 12:52:17 AM
It's looking really good, considerations!  I like that oval window - adds a lot of character.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on June 21, 2009, 08:00:20 AM
Insulation:
Roxul mineral wool is made from basalt rock and slag, and there are no added flame retardants in Roxul products.  John's right about the 1800 F melting point.

The wood will burn before the insulation, but I think Roxul would buy some time for getting out and won't off gas some of the nasties that can be as dangerous as the fire itself.  There is no perfect system to eliminate house fires, we all just make the choices we're comfortable with.

Clams:
Hardshell clams include Manila and Native littlenecks, Butter clams, Cockles, Macomas, Eastern Softshells, Horse clams, and geoducks.





Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Phssthpok on June 21, 2009, 08:29:56 AM
Quote from: considerations on June 21, 2009, 08:00:20 AM


Clams:
Hardshell clams include Manila and Native littlenecks, Butter clams, Cockles, Macomas, Eastern Softshells, Horse clams, and geoducks.







Pronounced "GOOEY-duck" (go figure) for those who ain't from around here.  ;)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on June 21, 2009, 10:24:02 AM
One of my favorites but in Lincoln City it was more commonly known as a Horseneck Clam.

This guy has a big one.

(https://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d26/mAnDaPaNdA1758/geoduck.jpg)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on June 21, 2009, 11:58:19 AM
The name of the clam is derived from a Nisqually indian word meaning "dig deep" the gringo spelling is roughly phonetic.

Averages of one to three pounds but over 15 pounds and as much as 6 ft in length are not unheard of.  They make good steaks.  (with a little pounding)

Horse neck clams (gapers) are similar and also native to the area but, a lot smaller, up to 5 lbs.

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: secordpd on June 21, 2009, 12:15:32 PM
Is the belly soft and the neck tough?  I've heard a little about the clams you mentioned, just never tried.  Mmm butter clams sound delicious...  I love the belly of the clams, so I imagine I would like the belly steaks of the geoduck pan fried, which I saw them do on TV before...
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on June 21, 2009, 02:22:28 PM
"Borrowed" from another site:

The meat below the siphon is "breast" meat, and may be split down the median line and cut into small lengths. Once the tough outer skin is removed, the remaining breast meat is quite tender.

The siphon meat is much firmer. It can be sectioned and pounded gently with the smooth side of a meat mallet to tenderize the sections into thin steaks.

Tenderizing is not necessary if you intend to use the siphon meat in chowder or if you intend to eat it raw as sashimi, sushi or ceviche.

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on June 25, 2009, 11:27:24 AM
Stair railing
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_0174Small.jpg)

Room with a view
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_0165Small.jpg)

West end of loft
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_0163small.jpg)

East end of loft
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_0162small.jpg)

Lower railing
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_0159small.jpg)

More
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_0157small.jpg)

More
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_0154small.jpg)

:)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: ScottA on June 25, 2009, 04:28:30 PM
Looks like you been taking lessons from Glenn. Very snazy.  :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MaineRhino on June 25, 2009, 05:44:40 PM
Very nice!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: poppy on June 25, 2009, 06:25:34 PM
I really like your stair railing.  What type of wood is it?  I'm sorry if I missed the post where you told us.

I have a newly dead corkscrew williow that I have considered using for some railing, but I really don't know anything about the wood.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on June 26, 2009, 09:00:03 AM
Its cedar.  My neighbor was clearing a new area on his place and a cedar tree had some branches all tangled up in the under brush.  The twists and turns they took to reach the light was providential for the project.  He brought them over and suggested the use.  So then he just "took on" the project, taping them up to see if it would work, then stripping the bark.  He wanted some hard wood to fasten them to the posts, so we stripped a big leaf maple branche I had trimmed while clearing and he has this tenon attachment on a drill, and made them work.  There is one more crazy S shaped piece that he's using to join the two railings together.  As crazy as it looks, your hand glides up them quite naturally as you go up the stairs.  There is some more trimming and shaping of the ends to be done, we're waiting for them to cure a little more before finally securing them as they were alive just recently.  And the material is free.  Love it when I can shop for material in the woods.   :D
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: poppy on June 26, 2009, 04:00:26 PM
I never would have guessed that it was cedar.  Boy that should look really good with a finish stain. [cool]

The red cedar in these parts don't twist like that, but as I said before the corkscrew willow might work; plus I have some other standing dead trees that are small enough and crooked enough that they may also do the job.

I couldn't agree more on free shopping in the woods.  :D
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on June 26, 2009, 04:12:33 PM
That's a very cool hand rail. I like it a lot.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on June 27, 2009, 02:21:00 AM
That's the way - shop the woods - great job.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on June 27, 2009, 08:05:35 AM
I'd like to see that corkscrew willow.  This is a cool country. East coast to west we have so many different kinds of trees. c*
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Sassy on June 27, 2009, 05:19:29 PM
Really nice, considerations - your home will truly be Your home with all the special touches.   :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Phssthpok on June 27, 2009, 05:36:14 PM
Quote from: considerations on June 27, 2009, 08:05:35 AM
I'd like to see that corkscrew willow.  This is a cool country. East coast to west we have so many different kinds of trees. c*

FYI: Corkscrew willows grow like WEEDS here in the PNW.  :P

All you have to do is find a doner tree, lop off a limb, branch, or twig, plop it into a bucket of water for a few weeks (no special rooting compound needed), then plant your newly rooted tree. ;)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: poppy on June 27, 2009, 09:13:36 PM
QuoteI'd like to see that corkscrew willow.
I will try to get some close up pics on my next trip to the farm.
QuoteFYI: Corkscrew willows grow like WEEDS here in the PNW.
That's interesting.  They are considered exotic in these parts.  Weeping willows are more common, but they may not be native to this part of the country either.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Phssthpok on June 27, 2009, 11:53:47 PM
Quote from: poppy on June 27, 2009, 09:13:36 PM

That's interesting.  They are considered exotic in these parts.  Weeping willows are more common, but they may not be native to this part of the country either.

According to the Arbor Foundation and other sources they're not native to North America at all, having been developed in, and brought over from, the Orient (apparently they're quite popular as Bonsai plants), but they really like the environment up here.

If I can remember to, I'll snap a photo or two of the CS willow at my friends place when I head up for another tound of building over the 4th. He started it from a 3 foot twig three years ago, and if memory serves it's about 7-8' tall already. :o
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: poppy on June 29, 2009, 07:58:15 PM
As promised, here is a pic. of my newly dead corkscrew willow which is about 20' tall.
(https://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu224/poppy3640/012.jpg)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Phssthpok on July 06, 2009, 03:25:10 PM
And as I promised Here's the CS willow at my friend's place that started off as a 1" dia., 3' tall twig three years ago:

10 foot tall and growing!
(https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y32/Phssthpok/cabin008.jpg)

Close up of branches.
(https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y32/Phssthpok/cabin009.jpg)

Leaf detail.
(https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y32/Phssthpok/cabin010.jpg)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on July 07, 2009, 08:58:14 PM
Wow, even the leaves are twirly!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on July 09, 2009, 11:58:29 AM
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_0511small.jpg)

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_0514small.jpg)

[chainsaw]
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on July 25, 2009, 10:01:25 AM
Before skylights

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_0163small.jpg)

After skylights:
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_0652.jpg)

Whew...
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_0687.jpg)

I don't have much spare time these days, work is getting in the way (right, complain about having a job...that's smart)
However, the insulation is coming along in all the places where the wiring is done and no plumbing is going.

Monday I go shopping with the "electrical guy" for the wire needed to run through the conduit to the solar panels...the trench is dug and the conduit is laid.

I've been checking in on you all, just not had time to say much (likely a blessing). 


Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: John Raabe on July 25, 2009, 10:51:45 AM
Let there be light.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: poppy on July 25, 2009, 12:55:54 PM
The skylights look good, but I have to ask:  How are you going to avoid too much solar heating through them in the summer? ???
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on July 25, 2009, 02:15:59 PM
Quote from: poppy on July 25, 2009, 12:55:54 PM


The skylights look good, but I have to ask:  How are you going to avoid too much solar heating through them in the summer? ???



For the two weeks or so that "too much solar heating" is a issue here in Western Washington and that included the Olympic Peninsula where Consideration's is located , we open a few / all the windows. That mostly takes care of it. 

  You did head out the openings didn't you? In the one photo , maybe mid constructions, I don't see any headers ??? I'd guess that was the case , just a mid -work photo.

Why'd you do them later as opposed to when the roofing got put on? On sale skylight , impulse buy, other factors? 

Looks good either way!



Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on July 26, 2009, 04:38:01 PM
"The skylights look good, but I have to ask:  How are you going to avoid too much solar heating through them in the summer? Huh?

For the two weeks or so that "too much solar heating" is a issue here in Western Washington and that included the Olympic Peninsula where Consideration's is located , we open a few / all the windows. That mostly takes care of it."


Right somebody must not be familiar with a western Washington climate.....I'm putting up thermal curtains that stick to the top and the bottom when I don't care for the temp or the amount of light (not likely) coming through the shaft, hot or cold. 

"You did head out the openings didn't you? In the one photo , maybe mid constructions, I don't see any headers Huh? I'd guess that was the case , just a mid -work photo."

Your most beginning beginner doesn't know about "head out".  The sides are a box made of 3/4" treated plywood that sits in the roof hole, which is framed. The box is the "shaft" from the glass to the ceiling line and it all gets covered up with drywall at some point. There is a little roofy thingy called a cricket on the top of each one to divert water, tree leaves, etc.  That is over another fancily bent up piece of horizontal metal that also diverts water, which is over  massive amounts of black and grey goo designed to keep water out....I hope that's what you meant.  There is another fancily bent piece of metal at the bottom that diverts water coming off the glass.

I calmly held ladders steady, watched, took pics, and shelled out money for someone else to clamber on that roof.

"Why'd you do them later as opposed to when the roofing got put on? On sale skylight , impulse buy, other factors? "

The roof was finished in October last year..the steady rains started in September if I remember correctly.  Putting in skylights after the rain has started here is a losing proposition. I did buy them on sale in September, but after all the rush to weather in and magnificent and artful "tarpage" to keep that OSB dry until the metal was installed, it seemed not fruitful to risk putting holes in the roof until this summer. 

"Looks good either way!"

Thanks, I'm pretty tickled.  It was like a cave in the loft, and I love light.  Plus they are low enough at the bottom to double as picture windows.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on July 26, 2009, 05:28:54 PM
Those look super.

As for solar gain vs the extra light, everything is a trade off. Here in the desert if we were concerned about nothing but keeping the summer heat out we'd live in windowless dark boxes. We have a couple of skylights here in our suburban desert home we have some skylights, both with fairly long roof to ceiling light shafts. The bottom end has a clear acrylic panel insert. This seems to help keep the heat from the sun from becoming oppressive. But it is a trade of I'm sure.

One of ours is in the centrally located bathroom. The skylight removes the necessity for turning on a light during daylight hours. Another is in a closet, again no lights needed during the day. We would not want to be without them.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: diyfrank on July 26, 2009, 07:45:32 PM
The skylights look good from the outside and brightens things up nicely on the inside.  [cool]
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on July 26, 2009, 08:00:33 PM
Quote from: considerations on July 26, 2009, 04:38:01 PM





Your most beginning beginner doesn't know about "head out". 

  It appears that you cut out part of one rafter to make the skylight fit, maybe thats not what I'm seeing , bad camera angle maybe?

  But IF you did cut out part of one rafter on each side you should cut a 2x12 "header" pieces , well two really top and bottom of the skylight rough opening, that connects the two side / full length rafters to the cutoff one. The sky light chase or box as you called it only really hold the sheet-rock or wall finish materials. So did you have to cut a rafter out to get the skylights in?  What did you space your rafters 16" OC , I don't recall you doing 24" OC spacing there.

What size are those skylights anyway?

   On the beginner part you've done way better than I thought you would , in part because you asked questions BEFORE you started each phase of your adventure. You've done really really well IMO with this project!

So here's a "You Go girl!" for ya :) 




qoute]
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on July 26, 2009, 10:01:07 PM
"It appears that you cut out part of one rafter to make the skylight fit, maybe thats not what I'm seeing , bad camera angle maybe?"

Nope, rafters are all intact.  I didn't want to play with that idea at all.

"What size are those skylights anyway?"

2' x 4'  The box/shaft fits between the rafters, but there is a thicker part that sits on top of each rafter outside as well.  The rafters are 22-1/2" apart....mostly.

"On the beginner part you've done way better than I thought you would, in part because you asked questions BEFORE you parted each phase of your adventure. You've done really really well IMO with this project!"

Coming from you that means a lot.   ;D

I think I have ended up with a real taste for humble pie...at least I seem to eat a lot.  Sometimes the answer to the question is just "yard out the wallet and bring in someone who knows how."  

This, however, has turned out to be better than being stymied/delayed, or have the whole thing collapse, or worse.  

I do have some good ideas though.  I came up with the "cricket" thing, even though I didn't know there was such a thing.

Anyway you folks down south are going to laugh, we're headed into a heat wave up here....should be in the 80's and 90's for the next two weeks....the webs between my toes are going to shrivel....erg.  

I think I'll work on the insulation under the cabin...its the coolest job available. (and the dirtiest).

Oh, and I'll let you'all know about the "solar gain".    ;)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on July 26, 2009, 10:26:16 PM
Quote from: considerations on July 25, 2009, 10:01:25 AM


After skylights:
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_0652.jpg)




Ah,  I see it now,  with that bright light, and now that you mention it thats the plywood chase glaring in the sun! It looked like a rafter cut out when I was first looking at it.

  Ya it's TO HOT ! I agree. Did you get that rain and thunder and lighting last night? We got I'd guess 1/2" of rain , big drops sort of like back in Rhode Island for awhile , then we had about a hour and a half of normal rain.
It started about 7 pm or so. Cooled it off for the night but tonight no rain , to warm.

   
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on July 26, 2009, 10:34:39 PM
Yes it really rained...whew.  And the oddest sunset, the whole sky was glowing orange, yellow and pink.  It was so bright I went outside to take a look and some photos.  Very odd. Then the thunder came.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 12, 2009, 09:19:43 AM
I've had to upgrade the size of the solar stuff to get closer to meeting the needs of a larger abode.  Ergh the electronics are expenso!


(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_0767.jpg)

Anyhow, its almost done.  I've moved from an Exceltech 250 watt inverter to a Xantrex Prosine 2000 watt and from a 30 Amp DC breaker to 250 amps (ouch) along with various and sundry other stunningly expensive and remarkably small pieces to get this done.

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_0764.jpg)

The little stuff works fine for the 5th wheel, but I think the new will be big enough for the cabin.  There are lots of mysteries involved with this latest chapter....I wish electricity was more like water....I understand water much better.  ???  Don't worry, I have an electrician/solar person on this project.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on August 12, 2009, 09:26:44 PM
Looks great, Cosiderations.  You get enough sun for solar up there? hmm
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 12, 2009, 10:38:45 PM
"You get enough sun for solar up there?"

Not all the time, ergo the two generators......however, solar is not the end game.  I'll be adding more panels and a windmill.  There is one place on the property that is like the Bay of Fundy for wind....which I get a fair amount of in the winter...so, like always, I'll manage.

I've never felt deprived with the available power so far. And this year, I have a wood stove to augment the heating...wha hoo!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Dandlite on August 13, 2009, 02:30:25 AM
some wind stuff...
not sure what kind of power you need but you may want to look into the airX or the new air breeze...from southwest wind power...i have 3 airX's and really like them for my needs...they are small but light and would be easy for you to get up on a simple pole...and you can add more later if you want...where i used them was an excellent wind and solar site...and yes as you said in the winter when the days are short and the solar doesn't have the time on, the wind will help out a lot...sometimes mine would not stop running all night...some of the bigger ones may cost more for the tower and installation then the turbine itself...guess it kinda depends on the power you need and the money you have to spend...i had about 900 watts in solar and another 500 or so from the wind generators...but many times the total power from the generators per day was more then the solar...if you were living on a 250 watt inverter...well...something like these may be ok for you...the pole and wire shouldn't be over 100 bucks to get one of these up and running...a few hours...hook to the batteries and watch it spin...simple...Dan...
P.S. what a great job so far on the place...i'm gonna build the same thing soon...2 buildings probably...similiar to the dog trot on here...whatever a dog trot is...!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Mike 870 on August 13, 2009, 06:11:37 AM
Dan,

Thats great you are having good luck with your wind generators.  I think this is the first positive thing I have read about Southwest WP on the net in a long time.  Please keep us updated on how they hold out and how their customer service is if something goes wrong.  I have always been interested in small wind but keep reading poor reviews.  OK sorry, thread hijack over.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on August 13, 2009, 06:32:26 AM
Hey Consideration sorry for the hyjack but they started it. ;D  Dan I was always told that the term "dogtrot" came from when they had two adjacent cabins which were not attached by the wall but maybe a roof. The open area between the two cabins was the area that the dogs would run through.  Therefore "dogtrot".   Here is one discription

"The Waldron, Crudup, and Wade families gathered in front of the family homeplace in the early 1900s, which was located in Fayetteville at the present-day site of Harp's Food Store on Garland Avenue. The cabin is a fine example of the "dogtrot" style of architecture—a house with two rooms separated by an open breezeway. The cabin style takes its name from the breeze-catching quality of the hallway, which attracted canine--and human--inhabitants of the house looking to escape the summer heat. "

Another example

http://northbysouth.kenyon.edu/2002/Space/Evans%20Dogtrot%20Page.htm

We now return you to your regular scheduled programming.  :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 13, 2009, 08:59:36 AM
Hi jack away!  I am focused on those small windmills that pick up in light airs....one at first, we'll see how it does.   

I miss you all and wish I had more time, but it's screamingly fast paced these days...I only get to cram in a few hours on the cabin each day....the nominal chores to keep the critters happy and the jungle at bay...then back to earning the bread and butter..oh, did I mention sleep?  I really want into that cabin by winter.

Once in a while there is time to log in and lurk a little to see what folks on the forum are up to, but I don't always take the time to participate. 

The future is not certain as the Senator is not running for re-election, which only provides more incentive to throw myself at the cabin project and get as much done as possible - soon. 

Telecommuting really spoils a person.  The idea of having to primp and commute and spend the day away from home is not very attractive...so I'm hoping that I've developed enough of a rep as a solid legislative staffer that someone from the new cadre of legislators will "pick me up".  That would be ideal, as much as I despise budgets....finding a similar job in this neck of the woods is unlikely, and the skill set I've picked up over the last 5 years is somewhat specialized.   :P

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Dandlite on August 13, 2009, 11:19:45 AM
ooooppppssss...kinda proud of meself...
first day and already getting in trouble...
on the wind stuff everything is relative...i also read everything on the net i could find about wind before i bought the first airX...liked it so much i bought 2 more...was going to buy 2 more when that project came to an end...the main knock is in the light winds they put out very little...but again 50 watts all night adds up when the sun is off...i've already talked to them about upgrading the X to the breeze which can put out almost twice the power of the X in the 10-15 mph wind range...that's a big step forward...there's also something "kinky" about watching them for me...watching a solar panel is boring...watching them spin is kinda like sitting by the fireplace and watching that...it just never seems to get boring...making your own power company kinda fits in with the building your own house thought pattern...it's not for everyone that's for sure but works for me...i was about 1/2 mile from power...20-25k to bring in the electric...that may sound crazy to some who call the electric company and have a switch turned on and they are lighting up the microwave cooking some pop tarts...where this property is some may be 10 miles or more from the nearest pole...some still haul water from town...also have some petrified wood on the property...i think it's 200 million years old and ya can hold it in your hand...makes me wonder how did the cave men do it before Exxon Mobil...? good news is at least i don't have to worry about godzilla coming in and busting up the place...the rest becomes easy to figure out...
on the dog trot...thanks red...i kinda figured that's where it came from...if i ever get this project started again rover (the dog) and me will probably be doing more of a "slow" dance from building to building rather then a "trot"...just an age thing...!

this is on topic...i think...Cons let me know how the critter keep out stuff works underneath the house...that is a problem as the mice in the hi desert are everywhere and will get into everything it seems...even under the hood of cars..."hitch-hiking" mice...that's different for me...i did also have an eagle near by...pretty neat...i thought about growing some more of them to keep the mice pop. down but that's a back burner thing for now...

P.S. do i have to start a Dan's jail thread now...? i thought i was kinda on topic...
P.S.S. i'll be good...just don't bust me down to "minus" newbie status... :-[
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: poppy on August 13, 2009, 01:37:54 PM
Dan  w*t the forum.

Speaking for old farts everywhere with tired eyes; short paragraphs and the shift key are your friends. ;)

I don't mean to nit-pick, but posts are so much easier to follow, if you do what I am doing here. :P

Having unloaded that, I am very interested in what you have to say on the wind turbine subject.  There may be one or two in my future.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Phssthpok on August 14, 2009, 11:31:43 PM
Quote from: considerations on August 13, 2009, 08:59:36 AM
..........  I am focused on those small windmills that pick up in light airs....one at first, we'll see how it does.   


If I may be so bold...I'd steer away from the AIR series. I've personally witnessed them in action. They sound like an electric weed-eater when they are moving fast enough to make any kind of power. A combination of buzz, hiss, and whistle. This is not in and of itself a 'bad' thing if, like myself, you can tune out such steady noises with thoughts of all the juice getting pumped into your batteries.

HOWEVER, the 'new' AIR-X models have an electronic brake which is supposed to 'slow' the blades to prevent this noise. Unfortunately what it actually DOES is brake the blades down to the point of not producing any appreciable power, then lets them ramp back up to speed, whereupon it's braked down again. Repeat ad infinitum until you are driven mad by the rhythmic whiiiIIIZZZZ-SHEWoooowhiiiIIZZZZ-SHEWooooowhiiiIIIZZZZ-SHEW all the while KNOWING that the brake (intended to reduce noise) is wasting the wind keeping the genny from actually producing any usable power.

This little unit (http://www.d400.co.uk/index.html) however was quietly making a few watts (~10 watts I think) while the aforementioned AIR-Z hadn't even rotated to track the wind (read: light breeze) yet.....despite the fact that the D-400 was mounted only about 15 feet off the ground just above a vendors tent, while the AIR-X was mounted 30' up and out away from any surrounding structures.

I attribute the superior low wind performance to the D-400 having five blades to the AIR-X's three, and the width of said blades as well. While the AIR-X was going through it's annoying power/brake cycle, the D-400 was happily whirring away making good usable power....~75-100watts if i recall corredtly. There was noise from the turbine blades, but nowhere NEAR the whizzzz of the AIR-X under power-making conditions and it was STEADY...like the chirping of crickets, or the hiss of the wind through trees....very easy to tune out.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on August 15, 2009, 08:41:58 AM
I like my Bergey XL1. 

It has a rather pleasant sound and is 85 feet above the ground putting out up to over 1000 watts at times but around here it is generally 50 to a few hundred watts a few hours a day..... but hey, it's all good. :)

http://www.bergey.com/Products/XL1.html 

It's rated about the top of the wind turbines in most cases.

I can't see an electronic brake lasting if it operates by friction.

I believe it was the Air turbines sold by a dealer on lake Powell that he said he had to buy back from the customers - they were not happy with them.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on August 15, 2009, 10:02:40 AM
Quote from: considerations on August 13, 2009, 08:59:36 AM

The future is not certain as the Senator is not running for re-election,


Which one? Is this common knowledge? Maybe you don't want to say which one.



Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on August 15, 2009, 10:18:02 AM
Quote from: Dandlite on August 13, 2009, 11:19:45 AM

#1:  A)  P.S. do i have to start a Dan's jail thread now...?

        B)   i thought i was kinda on topic...


  #2: P.S.S. i'll be good...just don't bust me down to "minus" newbie status... :-[



  #1:   A) Glenn takes care of those  :-X

          B) The "dogs trotting" was the drift,  it was building related  so still acceptable , but close to marginal.     

  #2:   Again that Glenn's department, he does all the "busting" on this forum. Sort of like a sailor going to Captain's Mast, you / we   are this mercy. So far he's been a benevolent ruler.

        So there your lesson in thread drift, off topic, a couple of salvo's over the Administrator's bow  [rofl2], that oughta do it.

       Glenn I still have that jumpie screen issue , for info it started on my #2 answer line. It's a PITA really , any other reports of this ? I do NOT have this issue any other place but C/P's  ???

Oh and Poppy's right short and  spaced sentence's are easier to answer and / or respond to, IMO, as well.

  G/L PEG 

     
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Dandlite on August 15, 2009, 11:32:48 AM
lol...Thanks fer the "support" Peg...so...

that means i can or can't respond to this wind gen. nonsense i just saw posted again from someone who based the whole post on the theory that goes kinda like this...

i have a car...and it has a gas pedal...and everytime i put the pedal to the metal i seem to keep running into things in front of me...and can't figure out why...? has to be the cars fault...

it could get a little "juicy"...lol...so take that into consideration...! i've been know at times to bring some servers down with me "stuff"...but hey...look at it this way...could attract some bodies...and bodies buy plans...Dan...

P.S. did i do better with the writing...? after Gore invented the internet i think i was the 2-3rd person online...it's always been my style...still can't type or spell to good though...but i usually get me point across using simple words in a simple way...i like things simple...
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: poppy on August 15, 2009, 03:05:55 PM
Dan
QuoteP.S. did i do better with the writing...?
Yes, much better. :D  Now, if you could just use the shift key. ::)  Sorry, I had a tough English teacher. d*
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Beavers on August 15, 2009, 09:50:21 PM
Quote from: PEG688 on August 15, 2009, 10:18:02 AM
Glenn I still have that jumpie screen issue , for info it started on my #2 answer line. It's a PITA really , any other reports of this ? I do NOT have this issue any other place but C/P's  ???

I have the same problem,  makes it really hard to type a post!  :o

Sorry Considerations for continuing the hijack of your thread. 
Feel free to delete this post after reading it Glenn!
Title: in answer to considerations...
Post by: Dandlite on August 15, 2009, 10:48:51 PM
that should get me within the outer limits of jail time...

to do a quick comparison of the X...XL-1 (which should get me time for sure depending on what kind of humor a mod has) and the D400...

1. cost...X about $700...(i got 3 fer 1800) XL1 about $2700 and the D 400 about $2000 with the regulator it needs...
wow...ok...it seems we're off to a real good start...that all looks pretty even to me...

but...to get it a bit closer we're gonna use 3 X's instead of one...cost now $2100...now we're close...
that gets us to putting them up in the air so we can actually use them...

from the same site a tower kit of 80 feet for the XL1 is about $2200...i would never put anything that hi off the ground that spins or may need mantinence...but that's just me...nor would i spend that kind of money to do it...plus...getting the tower up...not sure what that costs...i ain't climbing that baby if something goes wrong...i like watts but have my limits what i'll do to get them...

the X and the d 400 would be similar to get up...i had my 3 X's up for about $300 or less...poles..wire...by meself hooked to da batteries and working...i could get one up or down in less then an hour all alone...we're talking the gens "up" here poppy...follow along carefully or you'll get off track...

some simple electric stuff needs to be put in here...watts = volts X amps...sorry to those that already know that...

my system was 48v...to keep this simple we'll use 50 volts for the X...times the 30 amps i saw with me own eyes gave me 1500 watts for the 3 X's or about 500 watts each at the time they shut down...which happens at about a wind of 30 mph...that's what they are designed to do...and mine did it fine...they are not designed to operate in winds over 30 mph...if a hurricane is coming at ya or a bad storm when the winds will be high the simple solution is to just throw a switch..it disconnects the X from the batteries and shuts it down till the wind conditions are more favorable...

from the D400 manual..."basically"...i'm not gonna word for word it...

it should never be allowed to run unloaded for more then a few minutes...
in open circuit the D400 will overspeed and very hi voltages can be produced...!
i think i'd rather have something that would not self distruct or blow the regulater or..."there is a risk of damage to the machines rectifiers"...
in hi wind conditions i can deal with the way the X handles it...or throw the switch...

more manual...
in hi winds it is prudent to stop the machine and secure the blades with rope...! lol...! hold on it gets better...

The D400 can be stopped by gripping the tail and turning the machine out of the wind, securing the blades once they have stopped spinning...!
at least they tell ya to lasso the blades after they stop spinning...how thoughful...!
boss there's gonna be a t-storm...so i gotta get home and lasso me D400 so it doesn't self destruct...BRB...!
who's gonna shimmey up there pole or tower and lasso a wind gen...? yee-haw...! ahhh...not me...!
this is really in da manual...!

more..now ya can also use a switch...basically...
in certain conditions the rotor can overcome the braking effect..(switch)
for this reason the braking switch should only be used to slow the unit prior to manually stopping it....!
if the machine is left to run with the braking switch engaged serious damage can occur to the gen...!
ahhh...boss...i put a switch in but still gotta run home cause da switch just gives me some time to lasso the gen...! yee-haw....!
if i'm not back in an hour..well...da blades won...!

this post about the D400 makes no sense in that it's hard to tell what any of it means...were the X and the D400 together...? not really clear...

if so then the X was either operating in a wind over 30mph or it wasn't connected to a battery...both of those would cause the X to spin up and shut down...and again the post states that the D400 was "happily" making power...75-100 watts...while the X was going through it's spin/brake cycle...?
what it doesn't say is "one" X would be in the 400-500 watt range in that kinda wind condition up until it shuts down..no lasso...3 of them...well...a bit more then a "happy" 100 watts...

i will say that the D400 at about a 30 mph wind would be putting out about 250 watts or so...takes about a 35 mph wind to get 400 watts...
they are designed to operate (or blow up) in a different range of wind...most of us here in da US of A wanna make power in a more useable range...10 or below to 30 or so...that's where the X is designed to be...not many get 30 mph winds or more for any length of time...

hi glenn...(i'm gonna be careful here) 3 x's probably won't do what yer XL 1 will do...but...6 of them at about 4-5k up and spinning i think ya be toast...
my thinking also was that if one broke i take it out and the rest keep making power...can't do that with one big one...
i would also like ta ask ya a question...
how many times have ya climbed the 85 foot tower and roped the XL ta shut it down...? now tell the truth... :) Dan...

p.s. just for fun...how long would it take ya to get that XL down...? and how many people or stuff is needed...?

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on August 15, 2009, 11:34:41 PM
I got it up by myself, Dan.  Took me about 10 hours.  I built my own 85 foot tower out of junk from my back yard.  I did buy the cable to guy it with.  I made the mounts for the cable at every 20 feet.  I built the generator mount.  I drilled holes in 2000 lb rocks and moved them where I needed them with my John Deere and Bobcat.

Getting in down? hmm About 5 minutes with a torch. [idea]

Oh... you mean so it is still usable? [noidea'

I would say about 5 to 10 hours but it is likely to stay up 10 years or more before needing servicing and for that I may just bring up my 80' manlift from the valley. d*

I burn off excess wind generator power by pumping water with a relay attached to the dump load relay of the Bergey XL1.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on August 15, 2009, 11:35:29 PM
PEG, with you doing so much of the heavy lifting here, I don't have to spend a lot of time being a cop. :)

I do kick spammers off of the forum weekly though.

...and rude mean nasty people once in a while... [scared]
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 16, 2009, 09:12:04 AM
"The future is not certain as the Senator is not running for re-election,

Which one? Is this common knowledge? Maybe you don't want to say which one."


Oops, don't worry, I don't work for a Washington state or Washington DC senator.   I also don't care for politiking....but yikes, the pay is pretty good, especially for telecommuting. Actually, the Senator is in the Commonwealth of the Northern Marianas,  north of Guam....yes, part of the United States.

Right now their election cycle is not in sync with the rest of the nation, so there will be a general election in November this year.  There is an initiative going on the ballot to sync up now because they finally have a Representative in the House in DC. Without the initiative passing, they will have to have an election every year....so I hope it passes.

If nothing else, I've learned a lot about both sides of the issues....what the "public" sees/is told and what really happens "on the hill".  It runs the gamut....but even in politics, the 80/20 rule applies....80% of the elected officials work their butts off to do a good job, and the other 20% make the news.   

Suffice it to say that unless a person goes through a bill line by line, with an understanding of the Constitutional issues that bedrock the concept, and the layers of prior laws that create the scenario triggering the perceived need for the bill, financial costs vs social benefits analysis, along with long term effects analysis....well, that's why the war of the sound bytes can be so polarizing, and are a cheap and dirty tool for swaying public opinion.   [frus]

They'd all be lost if it weren't for the staffers though.  We're the ones who read, and research, and write, and explain, and extrapolate down stream effects, fend off stupid, special interest, and knee-jerk legislation, and and and .....  oh well, enough said. 

I come here to enjoy myself and stay sane. I'm much happier with a hammer in my hand. At least at the end of the day I can actually see what I've accomplished.   d*
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 16, 2009, 09:24:38 AM
Wind mills - I haven't made a decision as to which one yet....so the discussion about them is fine with me.  I plan, like Glenn, to channel excess power to a water pump...I have an old well down by the creek, and really hate paying for city water just to irrigate the garden with chlorinated water...dumb.  There will just be an overflow system that channels the excess water back to the creek...

The way the winds are around here, it will be a good way to augment the solar.  All in good time, I suppose.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on September 29, 2009, 12:13:48 AM
Impatient

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_2499.jpg)

Should wait...don't want to - Didn't

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_2501.jpg)

Still doing the chinese fire drill with the budget.  The Legislature postures, changes their minds, all the documents change to keep up...they don't like the outcome, change their minds again, the documents change..... [frus]  This will be over sooooooooon
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: ScottA on September 29, 2009, 12:21:26 PM
Looks like home. You're not the first one that's moved into an unfinished house.

Is that a boat stove under the window? Are you going to install it in the house?
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on September 29, 2009, 01:02:57 PM
Is that a boat stove under the window?  Yes

Are you going to install it in the house?  Its destined for the office, a separate 10 x 12 outbuilding that is currently full of stuff for the cabin. 

I've been staring at it for a few days.....think I'm going to put it up on a couple concrete blocks and away from the walls and stick a 2 hour can of gel alcohol in it to see about getting the chill off in the AM. 

Its too heavy for the cats to knock over, and the flame would be inside the stove.  Just cogitating. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: emcvay on September 29, 2009, 05:49:18 PM
QuoteI'm stretching credulity with the codes, but I'm not alone in that out here.

"21.01.045 Exemptions.

Section 105.2 of the International Building Code (IBC) as published by the International Code Council regarding exemptions from permit requirements shall be amended to read as follows:

1. One-story detached accessory buildings used as tool and storage sheds, playhouses, and similar uses and classified as U Occupancies, provided that such buildings are for private use only and are accessory to single family dwellings and provided the floor area does not exceed 400 square feet. Eaves may project not more than 24 inches beyond the wall line.

You know Considerations, this is the sort of thing I need to think about *snicker*....you see, I've been fighting this issue with my place and have begun calling mine a 'shop' on the advice of others.

The 12x24 is 336 sq ft on the main floor so perhaps you're on to something.

Of course, putting in power etc could be an issue -- but anyway, I've enjoyed reading your progress and appreciate the code reference!

Erik
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on September 29, 2009, 09:37:44 PM
"I've been fighting this issue with my place and have begun calling mine a 'shop' on the advice of others."

I'm pushing the envelope fairly hard, and you have to make your own choices about "dancing with the code".  However, more than one person in this area says I should just put a carport type roof over the 5th wheel, tell everyone it is the residence, and call the cabin my studio. 

Cant get in trouble just for sleeping in the studio.

I'm off the grid and still using a chamber pot at night and a portajohn for the important stuff, so the sanitation and electrical permitting issues are fairly hard for a county to pin down.

This area is kind of remote - there are places like it in many states.  The county is pretty large, land wise and has a small population. 

I think the county has to pick its enforcement battles and there are lots bigger fish than I, plus this is a part of the county where officials and officers tend to tread cautiously, based on experience.  Nothing I did, just the history around here.  Ever heard of Ma Kettle? 

Anyhow, life is a gamble no matter what you do....just have to decide how much you want to bet.   

Being unnoticed is fine. Raising a ruckus about something one doesn't like or agree with can get one pinned in the cross hairs.   

I've probably said too much already.

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: emcvay on September 30, 2009, 01:34:11 PM
Quote from: considerations on September 29, 2009, 09:37:44 PM
Being unnoticed is fine. Raising a ruckus about something one doesn't like or agree with can get one pinned in the cross hairs.   

True enough -- however, if we don't raise a ruckus then nothing will change -- the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

I think it's time for American's to stand up and demand liberty -- it's their/our right and we've let it slip away for too long.

;)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on October 02, 2009, 08:50:26 AM
"the squeaky wheel gets the grease"

or gets replaced  ;)

being on the bleeding edge of things can accomplish a lot, or just a bloody forehead.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: emcvay on October 02, 2009, 03:15:20 PM
Quote from: considerations on October 02, 2009, 08:50:26 AM
"the squeaky wheel gets the grease"

or gets replaced  ;)

being on the bleeding edge of things can accomplish a lot, or just a bloody forehead.

Sadly there is truth here -- specially if you are being noisy on the side of freedom and liberty.

I'm related to James Otis -- who was referred to as the 'spark that ignited the American revolution' by John Adams -- he however did get the bloody forehead after the brits tried to kill him.

Sadly, if I were screaming for more regulation and control by the Government then I'd not be so unpopular -- very sad actually since this is supposed to be the land of the free and the home of the brave ;)

Perhaps it's 'the land of the used to be free and the home of the once brave'.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on October 03, 2009, 08:20:40 PM
I've done some headbutting, sometimes it worked, sometimes not...now my focus is the little piece of woods I pretend is mine.

If I smell condos going up across the creek or something like sidewalks and sewers coming, I'll rise to the occasion, but I moved here partly because this is rural enough to where that kind of thing won't happen anytime soon. 

That's not to say I don't stick up for myself, but my strategies are a lot different than they used to be. 

I protested my property taxes, and won.  They weren't expecting someone to know enough about the actual state law vs the county regulations to beat them at their own game.   I got what I wanted and no bloody forehead.    c*

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on November 02, 2009, 02:15:33 PM
Yes, I'm still in the land of the living.. :) ..just was temporarily pinned to other responsibilities, Mom had back surgery, etc....

The cabin is 14 x 24 with 10' walls and the area is open to the 12/12 roof.  The walls will be R22 and the ceiling is R30. I've looked at Rinnai, Empire, Housewarmer, and Eskabe. 

Don's right there are so many choices it's hard to know which way to jump.   

What I'm hoping is you can/will tell me what make and model you purchased, how long you have had it and your opinion of how its working for you.

Just purchased the Bosch outdoor on demand water heater.....should be here soon!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on December 05, 2009, 01:35:02 AM
Finally - and its freezing around here

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_2530.jpg)

Crude but functional

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_2532.jpg)

Finally, some noticeable progress......no laughing, its warm.  ;D
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on December 05, 2009, 01:38:28 AM
Isn't it rewarding to see the first smoke coming out of your own chimney?  !!!    :)  I still enjoy the sight.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: ScottA on December 05, 2009, 08:29:28 AM
Nothing like a fire to make it feel like home.  :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: poppy on December 05, 2009, 12:54:52 PM
Considerations. Happy to see that you have some warmth now. I had forgotten that you showed us a Franklin fireplace early in the build.

I have a Franklin to use in my cabin, so I am very interested in how it works for you.

A couple of questions.  If I recall correctly you buildt a platform for the fireplace.  I would be interested in your reasoning for raising the Franklin up off the floor that much.

I'm sure the fireplace surround and base are not final, but what are you using there?  And what's the plan for the final look?

Does the black stove pipe go all the way up to the ceiling?

No rush on the answers. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Jens on December 05, 2009, 03:34:46 PM
I love those Franklins.  It's a fireplace-no!  It's a woodstove-no!  It's both!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on December 05, 2009, 09:07:57 PM
Quote from: poppy on December 05, 2009, 12:54:52 PM
Considerations. Happy to see that you have some warmth now. I had forgotten that you showed us a Franklin fireplace early in the build.

I have a Franklin to use in my cabin, so I am very interested in how it works for you.

A couple of questions.  If I recall correctly you buildt a platform for the fireplace.  I would be interested in your reasoning for raising the Franklin up off the floor that much.

I'm sure the fireplace surround and base are not final, but what are you using there?  And what's the plan for the final look?

Does the black stove pipe go all the way up to the ceiling?

No rush on the answers. 


Poppy With out circumventing Considerations reply I would imagine maybe for two reason.  One being that she stated she was going to utilize the space underneath for an inside woodbox.  The other maybe to raise the heigth so that you would not have to bend to the floor to load and clean.  My stove is at floor level at my home and it is a real pain to get down on your knee to load and tend it.  But I didn't really have a choice as I wanted a mantle and it would have been too close to the pipe. I wonder if the mantle was really a good trade off now and I sure it will be a mistake later in life (probably in the morning  ;D ) when I have to bend down and my mobility gets more restrictive.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on December 05, 2009, 11:01:31 PM
Redover's answers are pretty good, but there's more.

"I have a Franklin to use in my cabin, so I am very interested in how it works for you."

So far so good, but it will be better when the ceiling is insulated I'm sure. The draft is working fine, a fire is easy to start. I've been warned that Franklin stoves are wood eating monsters, but the price was right for the time being.  I'm willing take that chance for now because of the ability to cook with it.   I have a wood cook stove stored, but I don't know that I would want to build fires in it just for heating purposes, and am hoping to have a separate summer kitchen for it down the road.

If I recall correctly you built a platform for the fireplace.  I would be interested in your reasoning for raising the Franklin up off the floor that much.

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/HPIM1061.jpg)

1 - Less stove pipe to buy
2 - don't have to get on my knees every the fire needs tending
3 - Space saving by putting the wood box in the same place. 
4 - The stove is within a few feet of being in the exact center of the cabin, which basically puts it "in the kitchen", the kitchen and living room all pretty much being one room.
5 - I have a fair amount of cast iron - and the last "bay" of the wood box (on the left and in the back) will have a little wheeled platform that I can put that cast iron on and store it.  I've found that "modern" cookware does not fare well when stored with cast iron.
6 - If you will note in the pic below, there are two little nubs sticking out from the left side of the interior of the fire box.  There is a 3/8" vertical hole through each one. They are intended to support a pot crane.  I'm getting a piece of round stainless fabricated into a replacement pot crane and will be using it.
7 - There is a screen that can be put in front of the firebox when the stove doors are open. I'll be using it as a template for a reflector oven.
8 - So with the stove going in the winter, a lot of the cooking will happen there instead of on the propane range.  Might as well take advantage of an opportunity to save propane.

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_2532b.jpg)

I'm sure the fireplace surround and base are not final, but what are you using there?

Its true, they are not final.  The base is that cement board.  Come spring, I'll tile it, except for right under the stove's little claw feet.  I'll get steel squares cut the same size as the tile and set them in the tile like coasters so I don't have to worry about cracked tiles.  The wood box will get a stain that matches the floor.   

The surround?.....no laughing guys.  :P Desperation being the mother of invention ruled here.  I got an old 50 gal steel drum, cut off the top and the bottom, split it down one side, kept stepping on it until it opened to a 90 degree curve, cut grooves in 3 old scraps of 4x4 to set it up off the base, and strapped 2 inches of rock wool on the back of it with a length of pasture fence, sort of screened it in.  Hillbilly fabrication.  Beats freezing. I was somewhat concerned about the paint on it heating up, but so far it hasn't.  So I got my insulated convecting heat shield that should see me through until I'm ready to build the real one.

And what's the plan for the final look?

The wood box will be stained to match the other wood near it like the floors and the stair posts.  On top it will be tiled, and I hope to have some sort of attractive edging for that tile.  The wood box will also have little "curbs" at the bottom of each opening to help keep wood scraps and detritus in the box, not spilling out on the floor. 

The surround will be sheet metal, I would like it to be hammered copper and it may be taller, but certainly no wider, but I haven't done the research regarding pricing, availability, etc. 

Does the black stove pipe go all the way up to the ceiling?

Almost. There's a big insulated black sheet metal box set into the ceiling the black pipe meets that box. The bottom of the box is about a foot below the ceiling line.  Inside the box is where the double walled stainless metalbestos pipe connects with the black pipe.  The black pipe is Selkirk 22ga and the double walled pipe is Selkirk also.  That double walled pipe goes through the roof and ends almost 3 feet above the roof ridge. The box in the ceiling is between the rafters and a wooden support system holds it in place.  That is what supports the weight of the rest of the chimney.

Basically, I spent the November allowance on the chimney and all the parts and pieces to put it together, so the beautification program on the wood box and surround will have to wait for a future month.   The boot on the roof, which is some kind of grossly orange hi temp silicon/plastic thing (looks like a boil to me) had to be over-sized some to accommodate the fact that it was dealing with an 8" diameter chimney sticking out of a 12/12 pitch roof.  I looked at some made of galvanized metal, but they all had flat sheet metal bases, which did not match the corrugations of the sheet metal on the roof.  So the boot, with its lead/aluminum flexible and form fitting edging really appealed to me when thinking about how to attach the darn thing.  Needless to say, I'm just glad the quantities of goop used to seal it all up is a grey very similar to the color of the sheet metal roof.  ::)

Hope this helps. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on December 05, 2009, 11:15:22 PM
Oh, and yes I will be painting the stove.  The discoloration is the residue from spraying a solution on the surface rust to neutralize it.  It's fairly cold for painting right now, and I'm thinking about whether using a fire in the stove to help dry the high temp spray paint is a good idea or not....If anyone has an opinion about this, I'd be happy to hear it.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Pine Cone on December 05, 2009, 11:59:29 PM
Hi! We're almost neighbors.  I'm a couple of hours from Joyce but really like the area, especially the County park at Salt Creek.

I bought a used Waterford stove for cheap on Craigslist that both had some rust and had cracks in the side from someone overheating the stove, probably without the internal side plates in place. 

Naturally I bought it when it was cold and I needed heat.

I cleaned up the rust, used stove cement to patch the cracks, waited overnight for things to dry up a bit and then just fired it up.  Smelled some as the new paint heated an burned some, but that is normal no matter how long you wait.  Seems to have worked OK.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on December 06, 2009, 08:44:49 AM
considerations personally I wouldn't worry about the finish on stove now.  I would use it this winter and then come spring (a long way off) you might be able to remove it to the outside and finish it better.  The cookstove in mine is also due to some restoration but I am going to use as is for now and worry about it in a couple of months.  

Would have liked to see the barrel dance. ;D  [waiting]
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on December 06, 2009, 05:18:33 PM
Would have liked to see the barrel dance.

I'm surprised you didn't hear it.   The neighbors did and came to see if I was alright.  Kept me warm for awhile.

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/right-wing-jump.gif)   
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on December 07, 2009, 10:04:19 PM
"Hi! We're almost neighbors.  I'm a couple of hours from Joyce but really like the area, especially the County park at Salt Creek."

Really?  Where?

I'm about 2.5 miles from the mouth of Salt Creek, its west branch is my southern property line.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Pine Cone on December 07, 2009, 11:00:59 PM
My cabin is in Jefferson Co. south of Chimicum
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: OlJarhead on December 08, 2009, 03:47:24 PM
Oh how I envy you :)  If only I could have gotten my roof done and the stove in!  Oh the good times!

I cannot wait!  Great stuff!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on December 08, 2009, 08:03:55 PM
"Oh how I envy you"

Right now its sort of like sitting next to a camp fire because the insulation isn't complete.
I don't think the "breeze" in there will really quit till I get drywall up....however, I ordered the roof insulation today!   :D

What's hilarious is that I envy those who are further along than I am.  Guess that's the good thing about this forum,  keeps one motivated.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: OlJarhead on December 08, 2009, 08:16:07 PM
Quote from: considerations on December 08, 2009, 08:03:55 PM
"Oh how I envy you"

Right now its sort of like sitting next to a camp fire because the insulation isn't complete.
I don't think the "breeze" in there will really quit till I get drywall up....however, I ordered the roof insulation today!   :D

What's hilarious is that I envy those who are further along than I am.  Guess that's the good thing about this forum,  keeps one motivated.

Amen!

I have a small wood stove to install and wish I'd had the roof done and doors and windows on -- but without them I was able to warm it to 40 degrees within 10 feet of a kerosene heater :)  Now if only I had windows instead of plastic and a roof instead of a tarp! :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on December 08, 2009, 08:24:13 PM
Lordy I hope you're not living there yet! Brrr!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on December 08, 2009, 09:01:13 PM
Quote from: considerations on December 05, 2009, 11:15:22 PM
Oh, and yes I will be painting the stove.  The discoloration is the residue from spraying a solution on the surface rust to neutralize it.  It's fairly cold for painting right now, and I'm thinking about whether using a fire in the stove to help dry the high temp spray paint is a good idea or not....If anyone has an opinion about this, I'd be happy to hear it.

I don't get to all the forum anymore everyday or sometimes for a while.

I used to build wood stoves and did paint them and allow them to air dry then when the fire was started, it dried the rest of the way.  I used high heat or barbecue black.  Be prepared for quite a bit of smoke for the first hour or so as the paint gets cooked on and the nasty eye burning stuff dries. :-\
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on December 09, 2009, 09:14:10 AM
Euuuuuu!   :P  Maybe I'll wait for warm weather and do it outside. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: poppy on December 09, 2009, 11:44:58 AM
Thanks Considerations for going above and beyond in answering my questions on the Franklin fireplace.

The reason I asked the question about raising it off the floor was because in my research on fireplaces the "experts" said that if you really wanted to get the most out of a fireplace that it should be at floor level; you know, heat rising and all that.

My original stone fireplace design (abandoned after finding the Franklin) had the hearth just the thickness of the stone above the floor.

For those who have not been following my build, I have actually notched the floor joists below the area where the Franklin goes in order for the stone base to be flush with the surrounding floor.

You have several valid reasons for raising the Franklin and that makes me rethink my design.  ???

I was glad to hear that you have the feet for the stove.  There's supposed to be an air space under it.

Thanks for mentioning the pot crane.  My unit is a Sears model 143 and has some differences in design.  I will definitely check on my next trip to see if mine has the crane brackets.

I too am somewhat concerned about the wood consumption and even thought about putting in a small stove in addition to the Franklin, but don't have it in the current plans.

Thanks again for your answers.

BTW, I like your surround design; maybe just slap some paint on it.  ;D
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on December 09, 2009, 12:43:17 PM
"if you really wanted to get the most out of a fireplace that it should be at floor level"

They could be right, I'll keep posting about how things go. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on December 09, 2009, 03:02:13 PM
Quote from: considerations on December 09, 2009, 12:43:17 PM
"if you really wanted to get the most out of a fireplace that it should be at floor level"

They could be right, I'll keep posting about how things go. 

I personally don't believe you could measure any difference in room temperatures between an installation sitting on the 6 inch legs like most stoves have or a stove on an elevated platform. Heat rises, yes, but once it's up there it falls and circulates. I believe that would be especially true in a cabin/house that's built tight ans has an exterior air inlet routed directly to the stove air inlet. Mine has a sheet metal box that surrounds the air inlet on the back of the stove. Eventually even the tile floor at the other end of the cabin gets warmed by the interior atmosphere and fine to walk on with stocking feet. Just my opinion; no research to back it up.  ;)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on December 09, 2009, 04:05:43 PM
Like Don no scientific info to back it up BUT if the air is drawing at the bottom of the fireplace or stove which is a foot above the floor it might draw air that hasn't made it to the floor yet and that 1' above the floor might "just stay stagnant".  Something at floor level might use the completed "convection cycle" for a lack of any other words to describe it.  Think of it like a cold air return on a furnace.  If you open a window then it will draw air from the window other than the floor level. Make Sense  ???

Anyway I am running on Gen Power now.  The grid just went down until 6PM I Hope.  Probably the wind has blown a tree across the line.  I am the last house north and about 31 miles from any major populated area so it's hard to tell where.  Sort of puts my stairway on hold. No power tools >:( 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on December 09, 2009, 05:00:13 PM
"Anyway I am running on Gen Power now." 

That's my lot most of the winter until the sun gets higher and the days get longer.

I can tell when the power around here goes out because a neighbor about 1/4 mile away has a big light over his barnyard.  If it is out, the grid is down.   Then the road starts to fill with the hum of generators, everyone has one out here.

I would love to have more PV panels, the prices right now are sure attractive....darn. 

"1' above the floor might "just stay stagnant""

Hmmm, all of these discussions seem logical, I'll just keep reporting on how it turns out.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on December 09, 2009, 05:10:42 PM
>>>  "1' above the floor might "just stay stagnant""

I'm still a skeptic on that, based on the fact that the tile floor at the far end of the cabin warms up and there are low cabinets in between as a room divider. Warm air rises, cool air falls and gets everything mixed up. Throw a ceiling fan and insulated floor into the mix and it is comfy. To us at least

Another thing... many homes here in the desert have forced air heat with the warm air coming down out of ceiling vents. That's what we have. The air return is at floor level under the raised furnace. Once again the floors are all tile and are not cold. The air circulates and with good windows and door installations there are no cold outside air drafts to contend with. That sort of installation is not the ideal but it saved on the building costs.

That's what I see and why I think it won't really matter. I'll now be quiet. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on December 09, 2009, 05:26:23 PM
But I don't have a light in site so I will just have to go on what they say and try it at that time or intermitently before.  I'll let you know.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on December 09, 2009, 07:08:21 PM
 :( considerations.  So much for my power.  They said 6:00 P.M. but I missed the 12/10 which means it will be off all night.  Oh well at least I have the generator for lights and the woodstove for heat. So all is well.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on December 09, 2009, 07:45:26 PM
Its amazing how much our culture has changed in 100 years.  Cars, electricity, radios, TV, indoor plumbing, movies, airplanes, jets, men on the moon. 

What's a 12/10?
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: poppy on December 09, 2009, 08:43:14 PM
Didn't really expect a debate to insue on the raised Franklin fireplace comment.

Perhaps I should have said a little more in my post beyond "heat rising."

My comment came from research on the Rumford fireplace which is designed to be as efficient as possible for radiant heat which is what a fireplace provides for the most part.

A stove provides more than radiant heat; conduction and convection also are involved.  A stove off the floor(or a Franklin fireplace with the doors closed) is basically providing heat in all directions.

A heating device only supplying radiant heat needs to be pointed directly at what you want to heat.  If your sole source of heat in a room is from a fireplace and it is raised then if you are standing or sitting facing the fire, your feet (and your back) will be cold.

A heating source like a forced air furnace system that I have is heating air that is circulated.  Radiant heat hardly comes into play.  BTW, my condo furnace in on the second floor (as Don pointed out) and the first floor ducts are in the ceiling, but again warm air makes it to where I am sitting because it is warmed and then forced.

Believe me, if your heating source is a fireplace on the second floor and there is no forced circulation, you are going to be cold on the first floor.

So my original comment was all about radiant heat.  I want to be able to lie in front of the fireplace on my bear skin rug and feel the heat.  :P  ::)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on December 09, 2009, 10:03:52 PM
It is tomarrows date.  Got lazy and forgot the 09. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on December 09, 2009, 10:29:21 PM
Yeah, I guess radiant makes all the difference.    :-[ :-[
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: poppy on December 10, 2009, 11:19:09 AM
No need to be embarassed there Don.  I am the one who sent us down the wrong path with the original comment.

Perhaps we need a thread in General about HVAC systems for various cabin configurations in various climates.

And that's the end of my hi-jack.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on December 10, 2009, 02:39:35 PM
I Know! - I change thet subject. 

1 - Can anyone tell me why some people put plastic over their wall insulation before any other wall covering?

2 - Think anyone on the forum would have an interest in a slightly used but pretty much pristine Exeltech XP 250 watt 12 volt inverter and a True charge 20amp Multistage Battery charger in the same condition?  Since I upgraded to a bigger system I don't need them anymore. We used to have a thread for this kind of thing but I haven't found it yet. 

No chiding - I'm still looking

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on December 10, 2009, 02:45:54 PM
I found it and posted them on it. Craigslist I've never done before so I'll try here first.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on December 10, 2009, 02:58:43 PM
Cancel the vapor barrier question, I just found John Raabe's link to Vapor Barriers for dummies.....duh d*
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on January 05, 2010, 06:20:00 PM
I'm in...as of the first day of winter.  Had to do some hillbilly engineering to make it work but I'm only visiting the 5th wheel for showers and to grab "more stuff".  The computer set up is still a little scattered and the pics are on an external hard drive that I only hook up to in an inconvenient way, so I'll post them whenever. 

I tried my cooler experiment. It failed. I have a mini freezer about the same size as a hotel sized fridge.  The idea was to use a cooler for a fridge by insulating it and swapping out frozen 1/2 gallons of water morning and night.  Well, I couldn't get it to go below 42 degrees F.   That's ok for spuds and onions, etc, but not eggs, meat, etc.  So rather than die  :-[ I acquired a mini fridge, the same size as the freezer.  I had an extra unused breaker box that someone wanted.  The cash from that exactly covered the cost of the mini fridge.  I'll have to keep a close eye on the battery bank, but at least I'll be around to do that. 

The wood stove makes for toasty heat, looking forward to getting a pot crane fabbed for it.  It would make cooking and heating water easier.  There is now no hurry on forward motion, as my contract expired 12/31 and I'm sort of in free fall until I pick up something new.  Life's an adventure.   ::)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on January 05, 2010, 07:35:11 PM
Sorry to hear about your contract.  Hope you pick up something soon.  In the meantime you can help others here with what you have learned. ;D
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on January 05, 2010, 08:33:24 PM
Quote from: considerations on January 05, 2010, 06:20:00 PM
Well, I couldn't get it to go below 42 degrees F.   

That is about what we get. We have no shortage of frozen water/ice/snow up at the cabin in the winter. We don't bother running the Servel in winter when we just go up for a short stay. When we arrived last, the fridge interior was 28 degrees. With a couple frozen jugs in there with a few other things the temp slowly rose as the cabin warmed. The last time I looked at the temp it was 41.  We keep some stuff in a pressure cooker pot outside. It has a locking lid in case some animal burglar comes along.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on January 05, 2010, 09:53:46 PM
"That is about what we get."

Yes, and I think that's ok for a weekend where things brought are things used.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on January 05, 2010, 09:55:42 PM
"Sorry to hear about your contract.  Hope you pick up something soon. "

Me too, but I've known for several months and have planned for it....so maybe not free fall, but the glide path is shorter than I'd like.  :D
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on January 05, 2010, 10:27:02 PM
Hopefully you stashed a little jingle to keep you in materials since you have time to complete little projects now.  For those who have more time than money that is not the case. ME ;D
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on January 06, 2010, 09:01:41 PM
Saving and building at the same time is hard, but I did it...I should be able to skate for a little while....which does not prevent me from looking for work, just without sweat on my brow.

Right now I'm just making myself comfy:

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_2556.jpg)

So I can sew - I owe the kids an anniversary quilt.


(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_2601.jpg)

Hillbilly kitchen:  (It will be a workbench in one of the sheds when the real cabinets get installed)

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_2607.jpg)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Mike 870 on January 07, 2010, 09:27:04 AM
Hey, I think I have the same green chair as you.  If it is, isn't it the most comfortable ever!  I've been enjoying following your thread. keep up the good work.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on January 07, 2010, 11:09:42 AM
"Hey, I think I have the same green chair as you.  If it is, isn't it the most comfortable ever!"

I do some of my best work in that chair.....and power sleeping.  I really don't care for the color, but the price was right and I know how to recover it....a nonessential project at this stage.

What i really hate is the computer spaghetti....I will find a way to tidy up those cords, but I'm functional.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: gandalfthegrey on January 07, 2010, 11:46:54 AM
Quote from: considerations on January 07, 2010, 11:09:42 AM


What i really hate is the computer spaghetti....I will find a way to tidy up those cords, but I'm functional.

take a lockset drill and cut a 3" hole in the back of that desk and run all of the cables to the back out if your way.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Mike 870 on January 07, 2010, 11:50:32 AM
Ha ha, lets just say we're not hanging onto it for it's looks.  We got it hand me down from my father in law, and he actually gets excited to come to our house so he can sit in his old chair. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: poppy on January 07, 2010, 12:40:11 PM
Like your "hillbilly" kitchen, but would it really have a modern coffee maker on the counter?  Real hillbillies don't use coffee makers.  ;D

Be sure to show us that quilt when it's done.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on January 07, 2010, 04:07:11 PM
Quote from: considerations on January 07, 2010, 11:09:42 AM
"Hey, I think I have the same green chair as you.  If it is, isn't it the most comfortable ever!"


What i really hate is the computer spaghetti....I will find a way to tidy up those cords, but I'm functional.

I have seen worse spaghetti. Speaking of which where is Glenn?
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on January 07, 2010, 05:18:41 PM
"Real hillbillies don't use coffee makers."

I know....and pragmatism prevailed quickly.  After a few mornings trying to do anything (like getting the fire going) so i could perk the coffee, and melting the little "glass" top in the perker, I gave up, went to Goodwill and found a mini drip pot. 

I don't even talk to myself in the morning before coffee.  [crz]

Snapping to chores and getting a fire going in a cold kitchen was more "authenticity" than I found I wanted to engage in before that caffeine fix.   

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: ScottA on January 07, 2010, 05:49:30 PM
I woulda done the same thing. Is there life before coffee?
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on January 07, 2010, 06:30:08 PM
"Is there life before coffee?"

I don't know.  If there is, I don't seem to be participating in it.  c*
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: poppy on January 07, 2010, 07:54:21 PM
I have a friend whose husband used to insist on freshly ground coffee brewed in a fancy maker.  Now she uses an old perculator that she got at a yard sale.  c*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_HN_3ulO9M&feature=related
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on January 08, 2010, 12:42:20 AM
Computer spaghetti, surely you jest.... that is barely a snack.  I have a pile of wires 2'square and 6 inches deep by my chair.... all UL approved of course...[waiting]
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on January 08, 2010, 12:47:30 AM
I really love that first picture, considerations.... reminds me of a cocoon where unwary travelers are taken in from a lonely country road only to wake up and find themselves completely mummified and wrapped in plastic shrink wrap..... [crz]... don't worry ... it will get better... I told the voices to sit back and be quiet... [ouch]

Seriously,  it looks really cool.. :)   
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on January 08, 2010, 01:01:16 AM
Quote from: glenn kangiser on January 08, 2010, 12:42:20 AM


Computer spaghetti, surely you jest.... that is barely a snack.  I have a pile of wires 2'square and 6 inches deep by my chair.... all UL approved of course...[waiting]



Ya, we've seen the GK approved stuff before  :o UL much mo betta :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on January 08, 2010, 01:17:56 AM








Dang, PEG...don't be knocking my stuff... ::)       :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on January 08, 2010, 01:59:53 PM
Hey PEG good to hear from you!   

I have a question for you, John Raabe and anyone else who wants to chime in.  Its about collar ties.  As you can see, I don't have any drywall up yet.  So....just to remind you'all; this is a:
14 x 24 with
10' - 2x6 stud walls and
2x10 rafters and a 2x10 ridge beam and
has 2 columns that are supported under the 1st floor with post and pier that run all the way to the ridge beam where they are saddle notched to support the ridge beam.  One of them is approximately in the center of the cabin both the long and the short dimension.

Do I need collar ties?

(start up the Jeopardy theme music.......)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on January 08, 2010, 04:43:58 PM
"reminds me of a cocoon where unwary travelers are taken in from a lonely country road only to wake up and find themselves completely mummified and wrapped in plastic shrink wrap"

Just call me Shelob.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on January 08, 2010, 07:23:49 PM
a ridge board

oops, at least the geography is right.  ::)

Thanks for pursuing the issue.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on January 09, 2010, 12:02:51 AM
Quote from: considerations on January 08, 2010, 04:43:58 PM
"reminds me of a cocoon where unwary travelers are taken in from a lonely country road only to wake up and find themselves completely mummified and wrapped in plastic shrink wrap"

Just call me Shelob.

Probably more like, "Her Ladyship," for you. :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on January 09, 2010, 01:03:03 AM
quote author=considerations link=topic=4499.msg105633#msg105633 date=1262829701]

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_2556.jpg)

[/quote]

C

   I'm going to base my suggestions on this one gable end photo, and add that you have a modified ridge beam as you stated it has bearing posts under it mid span, or "two posts that go to direct bearing"  some where in the middle ----ish.


  A ridge beam ( generally) is a true beam a 4 by or 6 by or bigger that is supported on it's ends , some time  the full length of the building , some times "posted to bearing it mid span if a beam can't be had to span the full length. Of course there are variations on all of that.


But cutting to the chase with what that photo shows I'd say collar ties are in order for your place. They could be added on every 4th rafter pair , I'd say one on each side sort of "beam like" and you could S/R around them , or one on every rafter pair and then you could S/r a lowered flat ceiling using the collar ties as joist.


  Hope this helps, this is your own plan isn't it? You did all those cad drawings of your layout etc. I should revisit the earlier part of this thread but lets see what questions or answers this post brings forth.

   
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on January 09, 2010, 03:03:39 PM

On another thought you could use collar ties on every rafter pair starting at each gable back to your "inner" posts.

So flat ceilings from the gable in , and a "vaulted" ceiling in the center section between the two posts, if they are at all symmetrical. Might make a more interesting space with the ceiling changes.
And tuck a ceiling fan in the vaulted area to move warm air around, winter and summer you'd  would make good use of the fan I think.   
 

     
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on January 09, 2010, 09:53:00 PM
"Hope this helps, this is your own plan isn't it?" 

Yes, but designed esthetically, certainly not from the view point of an experienced builder. 

I appreciate your reply.   

Is there a minimum distance from the bottom of the ridge....ummm board  (always learning)  8) to the bottom of the collar tie that I should observe?  It's 102" from the ridge board to the top of the loft floor.  I'd like to clear the top of the back door and the top of the front window that is in the pic you were referring to, the top of both being about the same height.

Maybe I can use some "interesting" looking ties, like real beams, not just lumber?
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on January 09, 2010, 09:55:30 PM
"Probably more like, "Her Ladyship," for you."

Flattery will get you almost anywhere Glenn....(the operative word being "almost".  8) )
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on January 09, 2010, 10:30:56 PM
I'm  just trying to keep myself from getting wrapped in Saran Wrap.  [waiting]
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on January 09, 2010, 11:42:11 PM
Quote from: considerations on January 09, 2010, 09:53:00 PM


[Is there a minimum distance from the bottom of the ridge....ummm board  (always learning)  8) to the bottom of the collar tie that I should observe?

  No , not really. Generally it's a 1/3 top section, or so. DonP had a thread about the thrust created and he may have more info about what would be code allowable or demanded.

But IF you added a collar tie on ever other rafter pair and used say a 2x6 or 4x6 if you want that beam look, the 4by would be problematic to attach well, it would need lag bolts or better yet thru bolts IMO to do the job. So what I'm saying is IF those collar ties are touching the under side of the ridge and are firmly attached the ridge can't come down , which means the walls can't bow out due to rafter thrust. Simple common sense engineering.     


   I'd like to clear the top of the back door and the top of the front window that is in the pic you were referring to, the top of both being about the same height.

  A bit of space above the window and door would look good ans well as function normally.

Maybe I can use some "interesting" looking ties, like real beams, not just lumber?

  When you get into "interesting" you create more issues with attachment , you bring questionable lumber or tree limbs into the mix , all wild cards in there respective strenght or lack there of.

That being said, adding any thing will add strenght.

 









Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Jens on January 09, 2010, 11:42:39 PM
is that a weight loss measure for the roof?  looks cozy
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on January 10, 2010, 12:02:51 AM

  Ridge beam:

  (https://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/sept17023-1.jpg)

A true beam , supported on either end by posts that go to direct bearing. Meaning there is a post and / or solid blocking all the way to the concrete foundation in this case.


  Ridge board:

    (https://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/July2611.jpg)

This had full 8 foot ceilings in that second floor area , or close to it.



 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on January 10, 2010, 01:24:05 PM
"I'm  just trying to keep myself from getting wrapped in Saran Wrap."

Sorry, no guarantees.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on January 10, 2010, 01:30:32 PM
"IF you added a collar tie on ever other rafter pair and used say a 2x6 or 4x6 if you want that beam look, the 4by would be problematic to attach well, it would need lag bolts or better yet thru bolts IMO to do the job. So what I'm saying is IF those collar ties are touching the under side of the ridge and are firmly attached the ridge can't come down , which means the walls can't bow out due to rafter thrust."

Thank you, I will do it, use 2x's and lots of nails(?)...everything else is built stout.  No reason to make this an exception.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on January 10, 2010, 01:49:26 PM
Quote from: considerations on January 10, 2010, 01:30:32 PM
"IF you added a collar tie on ever other rafter pair and used say a 2x6 or 4x6 if you want that beam look, the 4by would be problematic to attach well, it would need lag bolts or better yet thru bolts IMO to do the job. So what I'm saying is IF those collar ties are touching the under side of the ridge and are firmly attached the ridge can't come down , which means the walls can't bow out due to rafter thrust."

Thank you, I will do it, use 2x's and lots of nails(?)...everything else is built stout.  No reason to make this an exception.

You "could" apply 1-(2X to each side of the rafter at the intervals(every 4') and then insert a single one in between those and achieve a beam like appearence without the heavy atachment.  It would only require you to the pitch cut on that middle one a little shorter than the tie's on each end.  I would probably not try to insert it though but nail one side up, place filler against the one installed and temp nail. Then nail up the other one.  I think ScottA used two 2X's on his open and finished them using stain and sealer..   
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on January 10, 2010, 01:50:29 PM

I hate the ole "lots of nails" adage.

A proper nailing pattern or schedule is called for,

(https://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/July2610.jpg)

The ole two , one, two,  one, spacing. Also on a finer note , see the hammer dents, that insures the members are pulled together firmly. One thing nail guns will NOT do is "suck up" two members , the nails driven with nail guns go in so quick or with less force they NEVER pull things together. Even wall sheathing , if it's bowed , which it generally is, does not get sucked up tightly. I like to TRY, I don't aways succeed, to check window and door RO before I set the window or door, that the sheathing  is firmly touching the framing.

The reason for this is at trim out IF the sheathing hasn't been sucked up the jambs and window surrounds will NOT flush out with the interior wall surface m where that sheet rock ( most common)  , T&G paneling   or what ever else some one might use a s a wall finish inside.

  In your case the sucked up concept is structural , the better they are attached the better they hold together.       
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on January 12, 2010, 12:31:28 AM
"I hate the ole "lots of nails" adage."

Sorry PEG688sama....couched in the form of an oblique question (?).....and I got an answer.   ;D

I will follow your nailing guidance as well.   (with a hammer)

If I've developed any one skill during this project it is that I can produce some really fine hammer dents.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Solar Burrito on May 09, 2010, 11:47:54 PM
You alive out there? Haven't posted since January... so I wanted to check if your still kickin...
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Dog on July 27, 2010, 08:50:18 PM
Hey Girl..how are things coming along? The place is looking great!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 05, 2010, 09:55:11 AM
Yes - I'm still here.  I know, its been forever since I checked in, but things have been well, interesting.  My way of generating income for the last several years has been telecommuting, providing consulting and research services.  The trend in this field has pretty much followed the rest of the economy, so things have been a little "thin".  I've had to focus my attention on generating income from more than one source.

Anyhow, progress on the cabin tapers off as I use up the building materials I'd already purchased...Good thing I had hoarded long term food supplies.  Yag....I'm now pretty comfortable with rotating long term storage foods into the daily diet. 

In some ways this year has been hilarious, and in others a sober look at what a real economic depression could be like.   I am, if nothing else, still willing to experiment with various income generating ventures.  I've mowed lawns (really big ones) and pastures and taken on farm chores for others so they can leave on vacations, etc.  I actually really enjoy it with the weather being so nice, usually I'm chained to a chair in front of a computer as the nice weather marches by.  I've been pleased to be out in the sun and fresh air so much this spring and summer....and little contracts have come along here and there.  So, I have enough...not to make huge strides on the cabin completion, but the bills are paid and some occasional discretionary income. 

Its been a wonderful opportunity to hone my bartering skills as well...I think I do ok in that arena.

I have installed a screen door....wonderful improvement, added a porch to one of the sheds, built a crib for the firewood, etc.

Plus in March I almost lost Mom, she had a major health hiccup....had to call the sisters and get them into town, it was touch and go for a while.  Since then, with her additional diminished physical strength, I've spent time doing more chores for her that are now beyond her capabilities.....in an effort to keep her living "independently".  Things like pressure washing her house and painting the patio, replacing doorbells and.....anyway the list goes on and has gotten a little larger to include things that she used to be able to do.  She'll be 81 in a few days, and a good friend, kind and courteous.  It's time well spent, soon enough I will have plenty of time for myself.

Anyway, that's enough data, suffice it to say I'm doing ok and my little trials and tribs are no more than anyone else experiences at one time or another.   

I appreciate your interest and apologize for not checking in more often....lurked some, but not commented much, mostly because this forum is mainly about progress on building projects....and I haven't made a lot this year, but, I'm one of the lucky ones, no debt.. It would have been a disaster if I'd had a mortgage or any debts at all...whew.






Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: rick91351 on August 05, 2010, 10:11:30 AM
Hey just because you are not sawing boards and pounding nails does not mean we do not enjoy hearing for you. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on August 05, 2010, 10:16:02 AM
Good to hear from you.  Glad you are making it.  Keep in touch.  I am sure we haven't taught you everything yet. ;D
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Sassy on August 05, 2010, 11:21:04 AM
Hey, considerations, glad you're making it ok.  Sometimes what looks like a disaster opens up new vistas...  I gotta remind myself of that sometimes   d*  Glad your mom is better - you will cherish the time you spent helping her & just being with her when she's not around anymore.  My mom has been gone for 12 yrs & I still miss her.  Taking care of my dad for the short time I had will always be there in my mind & heart to draw from whenever I'm missing him.

You are pretty resourceful!  I comment a lot & I'm not actually building much - basically just Glenn's gofer  :D  So feel free to put in your 2 cents worth!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 05, 2010, 12:48:30 PM
Hey Sassy -  the barter stuff has been very interesting. 

I make blackberry liqueur every year...and it looks like I better start cleaning my gallon jars and making bigger batches.  Amazing what has value in this world.  I hardly ever drink and have just made a quart or so each year for sipping and "Blackberries Jubliee", but, at the risk of angering the revenuers (not like I'm actually distilling anything).....well, it seems to be valuable in the barter world. 

Anyway, even the recycle stores around here are now into dickering on prices.  I have another window for the cabin in my cross hairs, as soon as the next invoice gets paid.   I just keep cruising them, there are 3 officially, and the local building supply bone yard makes 4.  Never see any insulation or PEX, but doors, windows, tile, just about anything else is available in some form or another.   

Guess used drywall and waterlines might not be easy to work with anyway.   

As far as helping Mom....The first 3 years of the last 10 included Dad in the mix.  Our relationship was far from perfect, until the very end...but I can say we both did our best, and although I miss him, I have no regrets or "should have dones" hanging around.  My parents gave their all for me the first 18 years of my life, just seems right to reciprocate, plus the "company" is good.   (Growing up a little didn't hurt).
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: OlJarhead on August 05, 2010, 01:38:11 PM
Quote from: considerations on August 05, 2010, 09:55:11 AM
Yes - I'm still here.  I know, its been forever since I checked in, but things have been well, interesting.  My way of generating income for the last several years has been telecommuting, providing consulting and research services.  The trend in this field has pretty much followed the rest of the economy, so things have been a little "thin".  I've had to focus my attention on generating income from more than one source.

Anyhow, progress on the cabin tapers off as I use up the building materials I'd already purchased...Good thing I had hoarded long term food supplies.  Yag....I'm now pretty comfortable with rotating long term storage foods into the daily diet. 

In some ways this year has been hilarious, and in others a sober look at what a real economic depression could be like.   I am, if nothing else, still willing to experiment with various income generating ventures.  I've mowed lawns (really big ones) and pastures and taken on farm chores for others so they can leave on vacations, etc.  I actually really enjoy it with the weather being so nice, usually I'm chained to a chair in front of a computer as the nice weather marches by.  I've been pleased to be out in the sun and fresh air so much this spring and summer....and little contracts have come along here and there.  So, I have enough...not to make huge strides on the cabin completion, but the bills are paid and some occasional discretionary income. 

Its been a wonderful opportunity to hone my bartering skills as well...I think I do ok in that arena.

I have installed a screen door....wonderful improvement, added a porch to one of the sheds, built a crib for the firewood, etc.

Plus in March I almost lost Mom, she had a major health hiccup....had to call the sisters and get them into town, it was touch and go for a while.  Since then, with her additional diminished physical strength, I've spent time doing more chores for her that are now beyond her capabilities.....in an effort to keep her living "independently".  Things like pressure washing her house and painting the patio, replacing doorbells and.....anyway the list goes on and has gotten a little larger to include things that she used to be able to do.  She'll be 81 in a few days, and a good friend, kind and courteous.  It's time well spent, soon enough I will have plenty of time for myself.

Anyway, that's enough data, suffice it to say I'm doing ok and my little trials and tribs are no more than anyone else experiences at one time or another.   

I appreciate your interest and apologize for not checking in more often....lurked some, but not commented much, mostly because this forum is mainly about progress on building projects....and I haven't made a lot this year, but, I'm one of the lucky ones, no debt.. It would have been a disaster if I'd had a mortgage or any debts at all...whew.

Thanks for popping in and giving us an update.  I'm sorry to hear about the work situation and I'm in the same boat Telecommuter out of work and trying to build a cabin etc)...but like you I've prepped a bit for it (thank god!) so am able to make due.

I hope your mom continues in good health and am happy you have this time with her as well as enough time to do some outdoors stuff!

Erik
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 12, 2010, 09:08:13 AM
Looks like our little window of freedom out here is under scrutiny.  Darn. 

http://www.peninsuladailynews.com/article/20100811/news/308119991/building-permit-issue-draws-critics-in-clallam-county



Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on August 12, 2010, 11:32:17 PM
That sucks..... [waiting]

Taking out a permit contracts away your rights.  You are free to contract your rights away but I enjoy the fight and no longer ask permission.  Hope they keep that one shelved up there for you.

I realize it's near impossible to get away with in many places but more education on the subject helps. :)

I had another out of town cop refuse to enter my property the other day when my other neighbor told him it was OK to come ask me a a few questions about another neighbor .  He said, "No, not with that sign there, " I was told.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: OlJarhead on August 13, 2010, 12:15:13 PM
Quote from: considerations on August 12, 2010, 09:08:13 AM
Looks like our little window of freedom out here is under scrutiny.  Darn. 

http://www.peninsuladailynews.com/article/20100811/news/308119991/building-permit-issue-draws-critics-in-clallam-county


Reading that nonsense makes my eyes bug out and veins start to pop out on my forehead...let me go take something to reduce my exploding blood pressure.

What amazes me is this whole concept of 'we need regulation' -- know WE don't.  If we did, we would have come to you and asked you for some, but by the very nature that we did not do that we've clearly stated 'bugger off'.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: OlJarhead on August 13, 2010, 12:15:53 PM
Quote from: glenn kangiser on August 12, 2010, 11:32:17 PM
That sucks..... [waiting]

Taking out a permit contracts away your rights.  You are free to contract your rights away but I enjoy the fight and no longer ask permission.  Hope they keep that one shelved up there for you.

I realize it's near impossible to get away with in many places but more education on the subject helps. :)

I had another out of town cop refuse to enter my property the other day when my other neighbor told him it was OK to come ask me a a few questions about another neighbor .  He said, "No, not with that sign there, " I was told.

I followed your link, enjoyed the site but it appears you have to make the sign yourself???
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 13, 2010, 09:55:16 PM
Sometimes this world astounds me.  Like the county has a surplus of funds to hire enough folks to do more code enforcement. Right.  Like the city people in the planners offices know what it takes to manage a rural property. 

Like its any of their business in the first place.  >:(

I emailed my opinion on the matter to my county council man, and he responded, no really, not a form letter, a real response.  He agrees it was hogwash.  Good. If I wanted to live in a subdivision with covenants, where even outdoor cloths lines are verbotten I would have done so.

'Nuff said.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: OlJarhead on August 14, 2010, 12:18:16 PM
Quote from: considerations on August 13, 2010, 09:55:16 PM
Sometimes this world astounds me.  Like the county has a surplus of funds to hire enough folks to do more code enforcement. Right.  Like the city people in the planners offices know what it takes to manage a rural property. 

Like its any of their business in the first place.  >:(

I emailed my opinion on the matter to my county council man, and he responded, no really, not a form letter, a real response.  He agrees it was hogwash.  Good. If I wanted to live in a subdivision with covenants, where even outdoor cloths lines are verbotten I would have done so.

'Nuff said.

Amen and well said!

I wish all Americans would take a step back and realize that more regulations added to even more regulations IS NOT the answer.  Some regulation in certain situations, yes!  Laws, Yes!  but too much regulation becomes oppression.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on August 16, 2010, 08:47:27 AM
I'm with you.  I have not contracted my rights away by taking out a permit... must be a reason.... [waiting]

I try to manage my rural property well enough to keep them scared to show up on it.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 19, 2010, 09:13:34 AM
Oh well, life trudges on.  Get as much as I can grandfathered in (or grandmothered as the case may be) so I can survive any future rule changes.  I'll 'fall down' before these "improvements" will.   c*
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 26, 2010, 12:10:31 AM
Ok let's talk plumbing.  When I started many of you had great suggestions regarding "framing for dummies" and other helpful books.. How about a "plumbing for the complete idiot" edition, keeping in mind that I have targeted PEX as my weapon of choice.

Time to start acquiring supplies and making plans...
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on August 26, 2010, 12:37:02 AM
Quote from: considerations on August 26, 2010, 12:10:31 AM


Ok let's talk plumbing.  When I started many of you had great suggestions regarding "framing for dummies" and other helpful books.. How about a "plumbing for the complete idiot" edition,



  #1:Poop doesn't flow up hill.

  #2: Pay day is on Friday.

  #3: Don't chew your finger nails.

  Good luck , PEG. 

 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on August 26, 2010, 12:38:35 AM
Pex is pretty easy - like running Romex pretty much allowing a decent amount of room on corners for making the turns.  I am certified in Wirsbo Aquapex - or whatever the new name of it is now - oh yeah - Uponor.  

Many here like the crimper tool better rather than getting certified and using the Uponor system - they are restrictive in only licensing contractors.  That pretty much only affects the ends though.  I think the colored pex may be less bothered by UV also but not sure.  UV from direct sun will destroy Uponor pex in 6 months.  Indirect light- pex covered or taped will protect it.

Dang it PEG... you posted all of the secrets... now she is sure to put a bunch of us out of work.... [waiting]
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 26, 2010, 08:17:51 AM
Ok smarties  :D If its that easy maybe I should start a second career...plumbers do well.  I might be too fussy to do repairs though, just new construction. erg, just thought of that.  :P
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on August 26, 2010, 08:56:58 AM
From what I've seen so far I don't think you would have a problem... :)

So - what all do you plan to plumb?  What can we be of assistance with? 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on September 19, 2010, 03:17:55 PM
Very very basic. 

1. An on demand water heater.
2. A bathroom sink
3. A shower.
4. A kitchen sink
5. A vanity sink upstairs.

I have all of the above except the downstairs bathroom sink.  I have a wild idea that I can "persuade" a drain hole through a large pottery basin I already use to wash up in.  The plan would be to seal a drain component in the bottom of the basin and set it in a counter. I haven't bought or built the base cab or counter yet, in case I destroy the basin in the process of making a drain hole.



Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on September 19, 2010, 04:29:57 PM
consideration you can always use an old dresser, treddle sewing machine cabinet (minus the machine) or any base that would be the apprioate size that you need.  Drill a hole for the drain, supply lines (single lever only requires one hole)and you are set if you want to use it as a vessel sink.  The tricky part would be to bore a hole in the pottery the size needed for the drain pipe.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on September 19, 2010, 09:08:24 PM
Thank you all for the good advice/ideas, or the boot in the backside.... I'll admit I've done little or nothing this year on the cabin.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on September 25, 2010, 09:30:05 AM
Like me - you get to a certain level of comfort then motivation drops.. [waiting]    :)

or... other fires are bigger. [ouch]
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on September 28, 2010, 10:02:26 AM
$$$$$$$$$$$$$'s have been so uncertain this year, I've made it, but to go out on a limb for building supplies has been mostly beyond my comfort zone.    :-\
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on September 28, 2010, 04:02:26 PM
No need to get in a hurry - it's yours,, :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: OlJarhead on September 29, 2010, 01:45:35 AM
Why is it every time I see your profile picture I think of Joni Mitchell?  It isn't her, doesn't even look like her but there must have been a similar artist back in the 70s that took a pose like that...hmmm....you have me thinking...

Anyway, glad to see you're hanging in there and thinking of tackling new projects :D  I find myself wanting to ENJOY what I've built but there is yet so much to do still.

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on October 18, 2010, 05:17:49 PM
I know - slow to respond, but there is a lot to do to get ready for winter.....

Oljarhead - every time I walk in this front door, I enjoy how far I've gotten.  Yes, I moved in too soon, but when one has a choice between a roaring propane heater constantly coming on in a 5th wheel that won't stay warm vs. a dried in insulated shell with a fully functional wood stove...well....yes, I do enjoy it.

Joni Mitchell?  I would be Ok with that.  But not. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: OlJarhead on October 30, 2010, 12:20:23 PM
Quote from: considerations on October 18, 2010, 05:17:49 PM
I know - slow to respond, but there is a lot to do to get ready for winter.....

Oljarhead - every time I walk in this front door, I enjoy how far I've gotten.  Yes, I moved in too soon, but when one has a choice between a roaring propane heater constantly coming on in a 5th wheel that won't stay warm vs. a dried in insulated shell with a fully functional wood stove...well....yes, I do enjoy it.

Joni Mitchell?  I would be Ok with that.  But not. 

After I wrote that I looked her up and nope...not even close so I went back to the drawing board and still can't figure out who I was thinking of....is that a picture of You?  Or a singer?  or someone else?
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on November 11, 2010, 01:19:24 PM
Yes, that is a pic of me, awhile back.  I used to go to rendezvous all the time.  That particular photo I think was taken at Winter Bend, in southeastern Oregon....likely in February 1994.  I don't see that exact reflection in the mirror any more...The mirror has aged some.  ::).

Anyway, still have the "stuff", but haven't gone for several years. Most of it has found its way into my life style, I think it would take several days to reassemble a "kit".  Still, it is fun to schlep around the house in the buckskins and set up the lodge in the summer just to camp on the property. sigh. 

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: OlJarhead on November 13, 2010, 06:08:12 PM
Quote from: considerations on November 11, 2010, 01:19:24 PM
Yes, that is a pic of me, awhile back.  I used to go to rendezvous all the time.  That particular photo I think was taken at Winter Bend, in southeastern Oregon....likely in February 1994.  I don't see that exact reflection in the mirror any more...The mirror has aged some.  ::).

Anyway, still have the "stuff", but haven't gone for several years. Most of it has found its way into my life style, I think it would take several days to reassemble a "kit".  Still, it is fun to schlep around the house in the buckskins and set up the lodge in the summer just to camp on the property. sigh. 



Black Powder?  There was (and likely still is) a great even down just north of Grants Pass at the range.  I bought a very nicely made cross draw holster for my old cap and ball colt.  I still have the holster (some amazing craftsmanship there) but a different cap and ball....though I haven't shot it in forever.

Anyway, cool :)  I took my kids back in 1995 or 1996 and they loved it too -- specially the cannon shoot!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on November 21, 2010, 04:20:53 PM
The only black powder items I have are a couple replicas, a 31 and a 36 both "Colt" pocket pistols.  I rode with a Civil War cavalry unit before I discovered rondys.  I never acquired any shot for them, they were the "play" pistols, and I never wanted to make the sickening error of bringing them loaded with live ammo (ball shot) to a public event.   So right now they are just "pretty noisemakers". 

I pulled them out and cleaned them up the other day, contemplating what value they may have in my current lifestyle.  From a practical standpoint one spends about 10 or 20 seconds emptying the chambers and 5 or so minutes to reload.  And I have no idea of their actual accuracy, never having loaded them with any more than powder, grease, and floral foam.   

At rondys I got to use a few firearms, very different from modern shooting.



Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: OlJarhead on November 28, 2010, 11:09:09 AM
Quote from: considerations on November 21, 2010, 04:20:53 PM
The only black powder items I have are a couple replicas, a 31 and a 36 both "Colt" pocket pistols.  I rode with a Civil War cavalry unit before I discovered rondys.  I never acquired any shot for them, they were the "play" pistols, and I never wanted to make the sickening error of bringing them loaded with live ammo (ball shot) to a public event.   So right now they are just "pretty noisemakers". 

I pulled them out and cleaned them up the other day, contemplating what value they may have in my current lifestyle.  From a practical standpoint one spends about 10 or 20 seconds emptying the chambers and 5 or so minutes to reload.  And I have no idea of their actual accuracy, never having loaded them with any more than powder, grease, and floral foam.   

At rondys I got to use a few firearms, very different from modern shooting.





Ahhh I love the smell of black powder in the morning!  Or anytime for that matter.

The 5 minutes of reloading for a short time shooting was always worth it to me but in large part because of the historical aspect but also because I love to shoot.

As carrying loaded pistols in public, I agree that someone who does not understand the proper use and care of a firearm as well as someone who lacks the training of same should probably not do so.  However, as a Marine and Soldier I carry and have carried for many years.  But then, the police carry also and frankly, they have less training then I do ;)

Anyway, it sounds like you had a good time and those pistols might be of value to you some day.  One never knows ;)  Put them in the food stores and save for a rainy day!

Erik
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on November 28, 2010, 01:18:33 PM
"Ahhh I love the smell of black powder in the morning!"

Hmmmm...for me, I'm afraid its the smell of hot coffee.  Improves the aim.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: OlJarhead on November 28, 2010, 06:29:57 PM
Quote from: considerations on November 28, 2010, 01:18:33 PM
"Ahhh I love the smell of black powder in the morning!"

Hmmmm...for me, I'm afraid its the smell of hot coffee.  Improves the aim.

hahaha well the life blood of old marines and soldiers is coffee!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on December 29, 2010, 01:37:57 PM
Well, I'm playing with the big dogs now!

I started out with a ridiculously noisy 5000 watt generator, and was just wasting gas because I was using so little of the 5Kw and there is no way to turn that gen to an "on demand" mode.  When I wised up, I got a Honda 1000 watt gen and found it kept my 24' 5th wheel running just fine.  Plus my neighbors breathed a big sigh of relief because the Honda is so quiet. 

This was in conjunction with a pair of 160 (or so) watt solar panels, a small (300 watt) inverter, and 2 -6volt batteries.  That was about 4 years ago. 

I just acquired another Honda eu1000i, the same model as the other - and can run them in tandem for charging the battery bank, which is now 8 - 6 volt batteries hooked up to act like 4 - 12 volt batteries.

Things I really like about running the 2 gens in tandem is swift battery charging and being able to use appliances that need more than 900 watts to run. 

But the best part about having 2 is that if one gen needs to be serviced, I can still run things just fine with a single gen, just don't use the larger appliances. 

It is my new "self-insurance" policy that reasonably assures some form of power no matter what happens.

Finally, some substantive progress!


Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on December 29, 2010, 04:29:51 PM
The little Hondas do seem pricey compared to the big cheapy ones that can be found everywhere, but they are super generators. Yamaha also has some inverter generators that are similar.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on January 12, 2011, 09:45:45 AM
Ok so today is the day I start setting this place up with plumbing infrastructure.  The water line ending at the house perimeter is just too much to bear.  Course it had to be the day I wake up to a foot of snow on the ground!  c*  Anyhow, the plan is pretty simple, thank heavens for small houses and PEX.  I got brass fittings, thinking them more durable than plastic.  Think I'll just get the indoor parts laid out today.  A new chapter in this little adventure.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: texasgun on January 12, 2011, 10:46:26 AM
Used brass fittings on mine for the same reason figured in case they freeze brass will survive where the plastic would be questionable they say the pex will survive a freeze. What brand did tou use ? I used apallo as seen in my thread and it was pretty easy I really liked the pro crimp rings with the plastic stop since they took all the guess work out of where to place the ring. Good luck. [cool]
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on January 12, 2011, 03:58:11 PM
"What brand did tou use ?"  They have PEXZ embossed on them with additional code numbers that are unintelligible to me, I assume that PEXZ is the brand.  ???
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on January 17, 2011, 08:50:31 PM
So, I have the incoming PEX waterlines done for the ground floor.  There is a little sink I want to plumb into the loft and as with all plumbing jobs I've ever tried, I need another trip to the store.  >:(   

I'm a long way from turning an interior faucet and having any water come out, but the wheels of progress are again rolling.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on January 17, 2011, 09:06:39 PM
There is no doubt in my mind that you will get this finished.  ;D
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on January 20, 2011, 11:55:19 PM
Thanks... I have, even with no water to the house, purchased and am using (drum roll.....) a new washing machine! I sold my house sized washer and electric dryer because I knew they were physically too large and used too much power for this place. With the cabin layout I chose, either the washing machine or the shower was going to have to be smaller than normal, and well, I don't have to climb into the washer every day.  So, after some serious research I found a washer that fits the space and my needs.

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_0021a.jpg)

So, now after using it for a few months, NOT having to go to the laundromat except for big rugs etc, and not having broken it or had it just spontaneously break down, I can tell you all that this little gem uses 220 watts to get moving and spin, and about 100 watts to wash, and 7.5 gallons per load.  And, its big enough to reasonably keep up with what I get dirty.  I've no hot water to use in it yet, but the cloths are coming clean.  Its about the size of an apartment sized fridge, and is common in big cities where people live in little tiny apartments.  Anyway, another way to manage power usage, without giving up modern convenience. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on January 21, 2011, 12:20:07 AM
 [cool] looking unit.

Brand?
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on January 21, 2011, 12:31:11 AM
Very neat looking washing machine and efficient too.

I also have faith in your building, plumbing and other abilities.  :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on January 21, 2011, 11:10:24 AM
Hate to say it, but its a Haier.  Much better reviews than any US model even remotely similar and at 1/3 the price. They come in different sizes, this one is probably the smallest.

Similar to a more normal sized machine it has 3 water levels, although its hard to imagine what would prompt the need to use the medium or low. Those would be very tiny loads.  Choice of heavy, normal or delicate wash cycles, as well as just rinse and spin or just spin.
It has a stainless steel drum.  A normal load with the high water setting takes about 20 minutes, heavy duty about 30.

No agitator.  The wash cycle gets the drum spinning one way and then waits for the inertia to diminish, then gets it going the other way.  The spin cycle is in increments, spins for 10 or 15 seconds then disengages to pump the water out of the machine, repeats this several times until the last spin, which is much longer.  Beeps if it gets out of balance, but with small loads its easy to rearrange the clothes.

We'll see about longevity, but the reviews seemed to indicate that it could last for years.  I roll it out onto the porch to use it, as functioning indoor plumbing is still pending, but store it in the cabin. 

A couple pair of jeans, attendant socks, undies and a tee shirt or so is a load.  This works for me as I have a large drying rack in the loft which will hold 2 loads and in the winter the dry time is about 24 hours.   

A queen sheet set is a load, unless they are flannel, then it's two.

I was a little skeptical that such a small unit could do what i needed, my jeans get pretty dirty working outside around here.  I suppose I've been culturally trained that bigger is inherently better.

The first several times I used it I just sat and watched the cycles through the lid.. Hill billy TV. 

However, I think that if I don't over load it, and don't store it outside, and just generally use it with care, it will be a useful tool for long enough to pay for itself over the laundromat.

















Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: OlJarhead on January 23, 2011, 11:47:00 PM
 [cool]  I think I need one of these!  Where did you find it?
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on January 24, 2011, 02:40:01 PM
Is this it?

http://www.haieramerica.com/fr/product/HLP23E (http://www.haieramerica.com/fr/product/HLP23E)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on January 25, 2011, 10:31:22 AM
Haier HLP21N 6.6lb Pulsator Washer - The model you reference is the HLP23, which is a little bigger (so I don't know the electrical usage), and has a few more settings, like 4 water levels rather than 3.  Other than that, they are conceptually the same.

I still smile at the water levels thing.  I so far have only used the High water setting, imagining that the low setting might only be good for washing a single pillowcase or hand towel...the machine is quite small.

The HLP21 essentially holds about a cubic foot of dry dirty clothes (12" x 12" x 12"), and the HLP23 you reference advertises having a 1.46 cubic foot capacity.   

The way I found out about the electrical usage was to first contact Haier through their website via email and ask, and then buy the machine through Amazon and verify it with the handy dandy Kill-o-watt. 



Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on January 25, 2011, 10:33:37 AM
Got the propane wall heater coming, thank you Mountain Don for the specifics on yours. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on January 25, 2011, 10:49:49 AM
I just showed Karen the washer. She is very interested.

We could even run that off our PV system.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on January 26, 2011, 08:06:00 PM
"We could even run that off our PV system"

You are right, I am, with not a stutter or complaint from either the battery bank or a 1000 watt gen.  Its great.  I'm running about 3 loads 2x a week, and that includes the working clothes (outdoor grubbies), and keeps up with the sheets and towels,etc.   

What a relief, I was terminally sick of the laundromat pilgrimages. 

Look around a little, I saw one online today for $177.  Have to pencil in any shipping and/or tax they may want, but I landed mine on the doorstep for less than 200.   The price I saw on the one you referenced was 219...might work out just as well for you. 

Certainly with the inverter/genny set up you have (which i think is about double my capacity) you have a broader range of options.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on January 26, 2011, 08:18:41 PM
I'm going to do some online searching in a while. Don't need it till later in spring or early summer. I've almost got the garage cleared out to where the Jeep can fit again. Sort of hate to mess that up by buying it now.  ;D 

We are Amazon Prime customers. ($70 a year for free 2 day shipping on anything amazon themselves ships. No storefronts of others) It's a great deal as I find many things there at a good price to begin with. The $70 annual fee pays off only a few months into the year as a rule. You can also put friends or family on the one plan... 3 extra names I think it was)  .....end of Amazon commercial.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: rick91351 on January 26, 2011, 09:13:05 PM
Quote from: MountainDon on January 26, 2011, 08:18:41 PM

We are Amazon Prime customers. ($70 a year for free 2 day shipping on anything amazon themselves ships. No storefronts of others) It's a great deal as I find many things there at a good price to begin with. The $70 annual fee pays off only a few months into the year as a rule. You can also put friends or family on the one plan... 3 extra names I think it was)  .....end of Amazon commercial.

Wow I thought I was going to get to turn you in to Mountain Don for spamming then it dawned on me.  I just might give you another chance.  Hey I might be a little slow, but I tell you I did not just fall off the turnip truck yesterday you know. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on January 27, 2011, 04:18:04 PM
"but I tell you I did not just fall off the turnip truck yesterday you know"

Of course not. It was an elegantly controlled full gainer flying dismount.   rofl   (Sorry, bad jokes are one of my genetic flaws)

I got mine through Amazon as well, knowing it comes from somewhere else, but couldn't beat the landed price.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: rick91351 on January 27, 2011, 08:33:58 PM
Quote from: considerations on January 27, 2011, 04:18:04 PM
"but I tell you I did not just fall off the turnip truck yesterday you know"

Of course not. It was an elegantly controlled full gainer flying dismount.   rofl   (Sorry, bad jokes are one of my genetic flaws)

I got mine through Amazon as well, knowing it comes from somewhere else, but couldn't beat the landed price.

Your aces kid, aces...... [cool]
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on January 28, 2011, 10:47:44 PM
Got all the insulation placed back into the walls around the PEX.  Now, to find the right fixtures for the shower and start gathering pieces and parts for the outgoing water, and vents. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: duncanshannon on January 29, 2011, 11:03:41 AM
Great thread! Just finished reading the whole thing!

@considerations - thanks for sharing your story... Great to read.  We are in the dreaming phases and reading your story is very encouraging!

@mountainDon - huge thumbs up on Amazon Prime.  I buy everything from toothbrushes to a treadmill with it (yes, free shipping on a treadmill).

Looking forward to hearing about the rest of your build!!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on February 08, 2011, 04:15:08 PM
"We are in the dreaming phases and reading your story is very encouraging!"

Yep, living proof that even me, the quintessential construction ignoramus with an unfettered amount of enthusiasm and no caution can erect something structurally sound with a reasonable chance of no or little bodily injury.  ;D

Disclaimers;
I really really needed this forum.
I really really needed to take the advice offered. (I did...mostly).
No or little bodily injury does not include: smashing thumbs with a hammer, slicing fingers with sharp stuff, stapling oneself to a stud, creaming your forehead on a newly installed piece of wood, really sore muscles from installing floor insulation, and other stuff that comes w/the job but does not require stitches, casts, 911 calls, or doctor visits.
Swallowed [false] pride and hired out what I could not figure out or physically do. 
I'm far from done so there is a lot that I don't know I don't know.
Many of the other project threads have much more detailed (engineering and technical) information.   

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on February 08, 2011, 04:22:29 PM
Speaking of progress....the vented propane furnace arrived and (drum roll) the PEX is in, and the outgoing water piping is in, as is the venting.  There is still insulation and sawdust floating around.  There is a price for moving in before completion.  However, the next step I see is piping for propane.  I think I should figure out precisely where the propane range is going.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on February 11, 2011, 04:43:09 PM
Some of my old friends got hold of me a few days ago.  There is a move afoot to get a group going to the primitive rendezvous in Eastern Oregon in July.  Wow, I'm really excited.  It's been several years.  I was never excited about going alone and the "group enthusiasm" seemed to have faded. 

No horses, just go in "light" [right ;)].  It's about 10 days of camping with nothing [showing] that would have been made after 1840.  There is usually about 1100 people, enough to get a flavor of the Green River Wyoming rendezvous that happened from about 1800 -1840, when the trappers and the native Americans met up with fur traders from the East to sell their pelts and supply up for the coming year.   

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: OlJarhead on February 13, 2011, 12:23:03 PM
Quote from: considerations on February 11, 2011, 04:43:09 PM
Some of my old friends got hold of me a few days ago.  There is a move afoot to get a group going to the primitive rendezvous in Eastern Oregon in July.  Wow, I'm really excited.  It's been several years.  I was never excited about going alone and the "group enthusiasm" seemed to have faded. 

No horses, just go in "light" [right ;)].  It's about 10 days of camping with nothing [showing] that would have been made after 1840.  There is usually about 1100 people, enough to get a flavor of the Green River Wyoming rendezvous that happened from about 1800 -1840, when the trappers and the native Americans met up with fur traders from the East to sell their pelts and supply up for the coming year.   



Cool, where does this take place?  I'm guessing somewhere near Burns?
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on February 13, 2011, 05:03:13 PM
Paisley, north of Lakeview, south of LaPine....Burns would be north east.

http://pacificprimitiverendezvous.com/index.html

So much of my kit has migrated into the house.  I have to go through and assess, repair, and repack everything. But what fun!

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on March 04, 2011, 11:53:43 AM
Another baby step - kitchen overhead lighting.

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_0315.jpg)

The back side

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_0314.jpg)

No glare pic of the view from the main room

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_0310.jpg)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Squirl on March 04, 2011, 01:28:11 PM
 [cool]

Very cool wire coverings.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on March 04, 2011, 01:46:39 PM
Thanks, I didn't like the look of metal or pipe conduits, and these were laying out in the woods, so the price was right.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Sassy on March 04, 2011, 09:47:27 PM
What a great idea - looks just right in your cabin.  Glenn has tried to convince me that armored cable (wiring) is the way to go - he likes the rustic, industrial look  :D  It actually doesn't look that bad...  he says that the new apts he's been working on use that - it's the cool thing to do. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on March 04, 2011, 10:33:11 PM
"Glenn has tried to convince me that armored cable (wiring) is the way to go - he likes the rustic, industrial look."

Likely a lot less work as well, but somehow this just seemed to fit.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on March 05, 2011, 10:07:07 AM
Cool lights.   I have some lights I salvaged from a 1950's era sign that I want to get into the great room somewhere too.  Hate to see cool old stuff go to waste...... [waiting]
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on March 07, 2011, 08:21:18 AM
I smile when I look at those lights.  They are supposed to be for a porch, and $10 each at Home Depot.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on March 08, 2011, 09:36:24 AM
Not mine, but really hilarious - I think you can click to play this.

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/th_No_Kid_Can_Resist_a_Mud_Puddle.jpg) (https://s282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/?action=view&current=No_Kid_Can_Resist_a_Mud_Puddle.mp4)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: OlJarhead on March 08, 2011, 09:40:30 AM
Crazy funny :D  It IS what kids do!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Sassy on March 08, 2011, 12:58:05 PM
That is soooo funny!  Someone sent me that awhile back & I watched it several times - it looks like it is having a ball!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Pritch on March 08, 2011, 07:26:29 PM
LOL!  Wallowy goodness! 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on March 10, 2011, 12:48:26 AM


   Hey , I recognize that building inspector at about 30 seconds in , I'm sure it our city's  guy!!  rofl   Although  he looks more like a pig in real life ;)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on March 18, 2011, 10:45:44 AM
Got the chores done last night and started to settle in for the evening.  Heard a big CRACK!  Looked out the window and luckily my camera was next to me on the desk.   

So I snapped a couple pics while frantically squinting to find the video setting....I finally got it.   

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_0330.jpg)

Another loud SNAP!

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_0332.jpg)

Click on the pic below and be patient, its only about a minute long....but its the end of an era and a few years of concern about potential injuries and damage.   You can hear the slow and sad failure of a former resident's poorly sited and built project.

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/th_MVI_0333.jpg) (https://s282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/?action=view&current=MVI_0333.mp4)

Cleanup time!




Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on March 18, 2011, 11:14:18 AM
Cool action video.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on March 18, 2011, 12:05:07 PM
Notice how well the gable roof held together right down to the final collapse. Must have had some good rafter ties.


If it had to happen at least you were there to record it.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Sassy on March 18, 2011, 12:12:31 PM
Great catch!  Kinda sad - how old was that building?  Wonder if you can salvage any of the wood or did it get demolished when it fell?  Pretty neat that you were there to video it!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: pmichelsen on March 18, 2011, 12:38:21 PM
Pretty crazy that it almost laid completely flat. Good catch!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on March 18, 2011, 02:32:02 PM
Catching it was dumb luck, I heard it start to go and the camera was within reach.

It was built in the 70's over a place that floods every winter and over the years various persons had broken every window in it, including the ones in the roof, so it was a wet and leaky mess, with every upright rotten at the base. 

However.....it had been shored up multiple times over the years and there is sound lumber out there.  And yes, it is a scavenger's heaven (mine mine....all mine!)  c*

I won't be building in the "seasonal pond" where it is now.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: OlJarhead on March 29, 2011, 06:11:38 PM
I hate to see old buildings go but when they were built in a pond they kinda have to ;)

But pretty cool vid though!  [cool]
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on June 01, 2011, 05:17:51 PM
Ok, so I can be a little slow to make a decision sometimes....but for better or worse, I just hired myself full time to get this place civilized by winter. The economy may be better for some, but not out here.   For the last 12 months contracts have been few - small - and lots of time in between them.  I finally bit the bullet and am taking a chunk from the IRA to finish this place. I figure its just transferring an asset from one form of investment to another.   


Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: OlJarhead on June 01, 2011, 06:56:19 PM
Quote from: considerations on June 01, 2011, 05:17:51 PM
Ok, so I can be a little slow to make a decision sometimes....but for better or worse, I just hired myself full time to get this place civilized by winter. The economy may be better for some, but not out here.   For the last 12 months contracts have been few - small - and lots of time in between them.  I finally bit the bullet and am taking a chunk from the IRA to finish this place. I figure its just transferring an asset from one form of investment to another.   




When I was laid off last year I cashed in my 401k and put it into the cabin :)  My feeling was that since the federal government was looking at taking them over anyway, that I might as well put it where I wanted it to go.  Besides, with a little calculating I could see that my property and cabin would increase in value to a greater degree then my 401k -- I was right :)

So cheers to you!  You won't regret doing it and in the end will have a nice place to live and who knows what might come up down the road when you're done.

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on June 02, 2011, 11:20:08 AM
Thanks for the encouragement...after all these years of drilling myself about not touching that fund, I feel like a horse that's lived in the same pasture for years....and suddenly the gate is open..
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: OlJarhead on June 02, 2011, 11:46:15 AM
Quote from: considerations on June 02, 2011, 11:20:08 AM
Thanks for the encouragement...after all these years of drilling myself about not touching that fund, I feel like a horse that's lived in the same pasture for years....and suddenly the gate is open..

I know the feeling!

My wife had an annuity that we looked at.  After a little math we discovered that cashing it in, paying the penalties and taxes etc and then paying off bills with it put us in a position to recover ALL of the loss of the annuity in just 3 1/2 years (which was about the time it matured in) and in the end we not only recovered from the loss but increased our position because of the lower amount of debt and the increased value in our property etc.

Today we're ahead of the game because of making that move (and my 401k) and look at retirement quite differently :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Squirl on June 02, 2011, 01:06:49 PM
I think there is a primary residence exception in the IRA rules.  You may be able to do that without penalties or taxes.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on June 16, 2011, 08:03:49 AM
Well, I'm knee deep in it now.  My old laptop screen went kerflewy and I'm running on a new one while its being repaired...but no photo program yet installed, so pics will come, but I've not spent any time installing programs because the weather is good and don't want a half  roof rained on.  Gat part of the osb on the roof of the sunporch yesterday.  The metal should be here tomorrow, so I'm working to get the osb and felt paper finished up today.

The sunporch is my solution to "what to do" when one wants to finish the interior of a cabin that one is already living in. I'll move stuff from 1/2 the downstairs onto the sunporch, finish off the now empty part of the cabin, move the stuff back in and do the same thing 3 more times with the rest of the cabin.  When its all done, the sunporch will be my weaving and sewing room.  And, I'll have running water, propane heat and an indoor toilet to enjoy when winter comes. 

Getting rid of the rented honey bucket and a storage unit will drop my monthly expenses even more.... The dream continues.

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: OlJarhead on June 16, 2011, 08:59:57 AM
Quote from: considerations on June 16, 2011, 08:03:49 AM
Well, I'm knee deep in it now.  My old laptop screen went kerflewy and I'm running on a new one while its being repaired...but no photo program yet installed, so pics will come, but I've not spent any time installing programs because the weather is good and don't want a half  roof rained on.  Gat part of the osb on the roof of the sunporch yesterday.  The metal should be here tomorrow, so I'm working to get the osb and felt paper finished up today.

The sunporch is my solution to "what to do" when one wants to finish the interior of a cabin that one is already living in. I'll move stuff from 1/2 the downstairs onto the sunporch, finish off the now empty part of the cabin, move the stuff back in and do the same thing 3 more times with the rest of the cabin.  When its all done, the sunporch will be my weaving and sewing room.  And, I'll have running water, propane heat and an indoor toilet to enjoy when winter comes. 

Getting rid of the rented honey bucket and a storage unit will drop my monthly expenses even more.... The dream continues.



Awesome!  I'm happy to hear your progress and plans :)

I often think about adding chickens, goats and a greenhouse because of the added reduction in overall costs (by raising your own food, and growing it).  I garden now but increase my production each year in certain areas that seem to benefit us the most.

Anyway, keep it up and worry about the pics later :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on June 16, 2011, 09:14:41 AM
Glad to hear from you CF .  All things come to those who wait. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Sassy on June 16, 2011, 02:34:36 PM
It's great that you are getting lots done, especially the IMPORTANT things like running water, heat & a real flushing toilet!   c*

I will officially be retiring in July & trying to figure out what to do w/my Thriftplan (federal gov't version of 401K)  I'd rather pay off bills & have less stress than keep in locked up in an uncertain economy...  just hoping that I still have it.   :-\
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on June 17, 2011, 07:46:00 PM
Got the metal on the roof by noon! 

Anyhow took a soak today in my new hillbilly hot tub.  I got an old steel bathtub, put it on concrete blocks, lined and surrounded it with black plastic, and covered it with two sheets of clear plastic, all neatly tied down with bungie cords, and filled it partway with water...at the end of an even partially sunny day, I get a good warm soak and the trees get watered. 

Clearly refinements would yield a better result, but it'll do for now.

As for the retirement fund....seems that watching the stock market is like sitting in the front row of a yo-yo tournament...only they're playing with my money.  I'm not regretting the the decision, and am not taking it down any worse than the 2008 fiasco did.  We'll see how I feel when I'm done with this part of the project.

I know some of the forum folk have completely cashed in...I have mixed feelings about making such a decisive move....I have time to think about it.

Glad to be back Redoverfarm.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on June 18, 2011, 11:10:26 AM
OK, pics
I love shovels, I love shovels, I love shovels.... >:(
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_0851.jpg)

The Job super
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_0873.jpg)

concrete
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_0878.jpg)

posts
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_0882.jpg)

beam
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_0883.jpg)

rafters
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_0890.jpg)

metal on ....we beat the rain!  :)
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_0895.jpg)

more to do but at least we do it dry.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on June 18, 2011, 11:55:04 AM
Quote from: considerations on June 18, 2011, 11:10:26 AM

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_0851.jpg)

 

The Job super
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_0873.jpg)


rafters
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_0890.jpg)



I was thinking wow she's cat like when I saw the ramp !!  The photo under "rafter" shows it IS a cat  / pet ramp, whew!!  The super appears to be a real  pecker head !!, But then most are  :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on June 18, 2011, 11:31:08 PM
You made me laugh PEG, twice.

Cat like....if you saw me on the roof sticking screws in you would not say so.  Something smarmy about getting close to the edges.

As for the job super, I never thought of that...but you both "nailed it".  ::)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on June 25, 2011, 07:23:18 AM
Underfloor is done...and because the roof went on first, all the insulating and hardware cloth under the floor joists is installed as well. Framing starts Monday. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on June 25, 2011, 09:12:20 AM
Quote from: considerations on June 25, 2011, 07:23:18 AM


Underfloor is done...and because the roof went on first, all the insulating and hardware cloth under the floor joists is installed as well. Framing starts Monday. 



So this is living space? I was thinking it was a cover porch/ deck area. 


Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on June 25, 2011, 02:42:23 PM
Its a "sun porch".  Every time I try to reply fully, this d--- machine wigs out and fries the reply.  So short and sweet;

I finish this "room" off, interior included.  Move things from a section of the cabin into it.  Finish that section of the cabin.  Move things back in.

When its over before winter hits again  I have propane heat as well as wood, endless showers if I want, a real kitchen, and a warm "sit down" facility rather than the port-a-potty. 

This eliminates about $200/month in rental costs....which will mitigate the cost of more propane usage for the stove, furnace, and water heater.

Then the "sun porch" becomes a place for my loom/sewing machines and textile projects....and maybe a cot for those rare hot summer nights.

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on June 25, 2011, 02:46:23 PM
So has anybody had recent/good experience with vinyl floor tiles?  I'm considering them for this "sun porch".

Everything I've looked for on this forum is several years old and less than encouraging.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on June 25, 2011, 03:46:41 PM
For vinyl I much prefer sheet vinyl. However I did our laundry/utility room in 12x12" commercial grade floor tiles. The color goes through solid. Those have stood up fine over 25 years. But all the other vinyl tile that came with the house was less satisfactory. Of course it was cheap.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on June 25, 2011, 06:28:59 PM
Quote from: considerations on June 25, 2011, 02:46:23 PM
So has anybody had recent/good experience with vinyl floor tiles?  I'm considering them for this "sun porch".

Everything I've looked for on this forum is several years old and less than encouraging.

You might consider vinyl flooring.  Basicly like a heavy solid vinyl sheet goods but now in managable strips that is laid similar to laminate flooring.  http://www.nextag.com/vinyl-strip-flooring/shop-html
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: dug on June 25, 2011, 07:16:15 PM
QuoteYou might consider vinyl flooring.  Basicly like a heavy solid vinyl sheet goods but now in managable strips that is laid similar to laminate flooring.  http://www.nextag.com/vinyl-strip-flooring/shop-html

I'm not sure if it's the same stuff but my brother just put down something that sounds like that at my mom's place. Goes down like a floating laminate floor, no glue- and works well on less than perfect sub floors. Looked real nice!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Sassy on June 25, 2011, 11:49:57 PM
Nice job on the porch! 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on June 26, 2011, 08:29:57 AM
Quote from: Sassy on June 25, 2011, 11:49:57 PM
Nice job on the porch! 

Thanks...I don't do much of it alone.  I'm in the unique position of being a combination project manager and job site flunky.  So I do the the "grunt work", ask too many questions, set unreasonable goals, run for and hand up materials, learn lots, get dirty and tired, and get what I want esthetically because poor ol' Parker manages to translate my "vision" into something structurally sound.

I think 1/2 of what I pay him for is instruction time, and I'm lucky enough to have someone willing to put up with me.

Warning: Cute attack
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_0914a.jpg)

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_0942a.jpg)

Back to the project:
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_0912a.jpg)

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_0918a.jpg)

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_0934a.jpg)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Sassy on June 26, 2011, 11:56:38 PM
Very nice!  And the animals are sure cute  :)

Great that you have someone to help you w/the work.  I'm usually the grunt, general clean-up, go-fer.  Glenn doesn't like the detail work so I'll do that sort of stuff.  I don't think he trusts me w/the electric saws etc - and I don't think I trust myself anymore - I tend to be a bit accident prone it seems. 

Just think, you have your own home w/heat, real toilet, hot water - all the comforts of home.  Isn't it amazing how a dream can become reality?  You've done a great job. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on June 27, 2011, 07:19:04 AM
I'm lucky to be able to indulge myself in this venture. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on July 01, 2011, 12:43:07 AM
Looking great.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on July 27, 2011, 12:46:38 PM
More progress

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_0955a.jpg)

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/001.jpg)

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_1257a.jpg)

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_1264a.jpg)

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_1265a.jpg)

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_1077.jpg)

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_1081.jpg)


Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Sassy on July 27, 2011, 01:30:04 PM
Wow, it's looking beautiful!  And the kitties are cute too  :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on July 27, 2011, 02:20:54 PM
Looking good. [cool]
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on July 27, 2011, 02:40:33 PM
Thanks, by winter I want to be sewing and weaving out there.  c*
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on July 27, 2011, 11:14:31 PM
Very nice.  :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 09, 2011, 03:31:25 PM
So - the sun porch is DONE.  This is the "magic moment" when the room is absolutely empty....before I start lugging the stuff out of the downstairs part of the cabin to finish the inside....before winter. (hopefully the gods are listening).

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_1287a.jpg)

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_1290a.jpg)

Jethro approves

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_1277a.jpg)

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Sassy on August 09, 2011, 04:03:05 PM
Looks great!  You've been busy  c*  How much does that add to your square footage? 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on August 09, 2011, 04:06:11 PM
Nice room. Still have the windows to trim out?  It will make a nice place for the kitty's  ;)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 10, 2011, 09:11:34 AM
Sassy, it adds approximately 192 sqft (8 x 24 less the wall thicknesses).

Redoverfarm, the windows are not trimmed because once this room gets elevated from "storage" to "living", that wall is going to have built in shelves and counters that seamlessly integrate with the window trim.  Under the windows will be shelves that store yarn for weaving and fabric for sewing.  The counters will serve as a cutting and ironing surface, and at one end be surfaced for the tiny wood stove...and between the windows will also be shelves. 

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/sardine.jpg)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on September 06, 2011, 10:10:40 PM
Ok, I've been playing hooky.

Mom turned 82 in August, always wanted to cruise the Inside passage, so we did. My sisters and I all ponied up and took her.  It was a big item on her bucket list that she didn't think would get checked off.

We totally surprised her!  All three sisters on a ship for a week....woof, but all in all we had a great time.

I wanted to show you'all the windows I stuck between the floors in the cabin.  They don't open, its all about light.  Storage is at a premium in a cabin one lives in year round.   Wall space is a great place for shelving and cabinets....at the sacrifice of windows and natural light.  So, here's what I'm doing.  This is just one little window, 14" by about 35"...it fits between the top of the sun porch roof and the bottom of the cabin roof eaves and in the "catwalk" part of the loft floor....It really lets a lot of light in, both up in the loft and on the main floor.  There will be 3 more in the stair well.

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_2145a.jpg)

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_2146a.jpg)

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_2148a.jpg)

Oh, and the stupid drywall is up in the down stairs now also,  mud on/sand off, mud on/sand off, repeat.... :P
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on September 07, 2011, 12:22:21 AM
Good on the windows, Considerations.  :)

They are a lot like some of the ideas in the Underground Cabin.  Light from all four sides and it can come in high....well.... I guess that would be obvious, because in some places a low window would just be looking at dirt.... duuuhhhhh [ouch]

Nice job and the trip sounds like it must have been fun and appreciated.


Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Sassy on September 07, 2011, 12:43:37 AM
I agree w/you about the drywall...  what a tedious job - but your place is looking wonderful! 

Never been to the Inside Passage or Alaska - always wanted to go - could've many, many years ago when my ex was up there commercial salmon fishing but at that time it was better when he was gone  d*  So never did make the trip up there.

The windows look like they let in a lot of light.  That's what I like about our place - lots of windows - most people say it feels like they are in a tree house rather than an underground cabin  ???
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on September 07, 2011, 10:51:02 AM
i've been to Alaska before, but it was commercial fishing as well.  I would not have chosen a cruise, but it was the safest and least taxing environment for an 82 year old woman.  We had a little veranda off the stateroom, so she got a front row seat to the scenery even when she was tuckered out or cold.

The weather was as perfect as coastal AK can be, it only rained one morning and was in the 50's and 60's all the time.

I gripe about drywall because it looks...well, it looks so mundane, and it dings too easily.  I'll get over it because of the supposed fire retardant properties and the fact that most of it will be covered by shelving, cabinets, and builtins.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on September 08, 2011, 01:14:36 AM
Gotta tell you, you are one of my heroes, Considerations.  When I tell people of the forum and what people have done here I often tell them of your cabin and what a lady can accomplish if she sets her mind to it.  :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on September 08, 2011, 10:38:14 PM
Aw shucks Glenn.  There's a lot of folks on this forum who've worked smarter and accomplished more. 

I just want to end up with something I can comfortably afford to live in and maintain even in retirement, be left to live quietly, and make enough income to keep some modicum of a status quo.   

The world seems so crazy anymore...I've got good neighbors, good family.  That's enough for me.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on September 09, 2011, 12:10:42 AM
Exactly.... :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: BRUTAL on September 13, 2011, 12:13:48 PM
WOW, Ive been reading the first 7 pages in 08 of your build, and well......I bumped to the last page to see where you are now. Yes I stand in front of the microwave impatiently waiting for a potatoe to cook.Forget the hour before microwaves in the oven :)
Youve come along way in 3 yrs by yourself. At least you started off with a vision of a small house to live in.
My plans started as a shed to store stuff like the mower chain saw etc so I wouldnt have to cart it back and forth.
Then my plans grew to a 16x24 cabin to live in. Then I ROUGH est cost and backed off to a shed. then barn, now its a cabin again and I wish Ide have just stay with the original cabin since its alot of work to FIT stuff as you know.
PLus like youve said about a wealth of info and good people here. I would have done alot of things differently. even to the point Ive thought of selling the cabin and having it trailer to someone elses land and starting over...Meh, maybe not. But now when I do build my final house Ive got a place to log its progrss to and get plans and info...good job[cool]
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on October 05, 2011, 02:00:52 PM
The 24" propane range is supposed to deliver today.  So, now I need to find a range hood.  I see lots of 24" hoods, but have absolutely no idea about which brand is good quality.  Does anyone have a recommendation or warning?  What I would like to do is set the bottom of the hood flush with the bottom of the adjacent cabinets...and the vent will have to rise vertically to arrive at the exterior wall between the roof of the sun room and the eaves of the cabin proper.  This vent exits on the windward side of the house.  I know there are little flaps that can go over the opening, but is this an adequate protection from what can be rain that often roars in sideways?  Just about the time I think I have a basic handle on things, a new subject appears.  Thanks in advance for any thoughts anyone puts forward. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on October 05, 2011, 10:04:04 PM
Quote from: considerations on October 05, 2011, 02:00:52 PM
So, now I need to find a range hood.  I see lots of 24" hoods, but have absolutely no idea about which brand is good quality.  Does anyone have a recommendation or warning? 


  Any of the major brands should be fine, 24" is odd sized, you say you see lots of them , on line I assume? 


What I would like to do is set the bottom of the hood flush with the bottom of the adjacent cabinets..


  Generally the cabinet above the range is shorter bu 12" , and most manf. recommend 30" from the cook top / top of range , ours here at the house is 24" above , been that way for 25 years , no problems.  But you do want some space to load pots on and off the stove , I've installed one or two that where only 18" off the top and that IMO was to tight for easy use. 




.and the vent will have to rise vertically to arrive at the exterior wall between the roof of the sun room and the eaves of the cabin proper.  This vent exits on the windward side of the house.  I know there are little flaps that can go over the opening, but is this an adequate protection from what can be rain that often roars in sideways?  Just about the time I think I have a basic handle on things, a new subject appears.  Thanks in advance for any thoughts anyone puts forward. 


   Yes the side wall style vent terminations have a sloped "top" and also a gravity held flapper.     It gets tricky when people want them hanging off the soffit , as you then have to source a spring loaded flapper and the spring needs to be just right in strength to close the flapper and also weak enough to allow the low speed setting to open the damper.

But mounted in a side wall should be no issue for wind or rain.


 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on October 05, 2011, 10:26:21 PM
Wow, thanks PEG

Yes, I see the 24" hoods online...I think if I tried to buy locally, a supplier would be ordering it just like me.

Great insight re the distance between the stove top and bottom of the hood.  Noted and filed.  I got together with a local cabinet shop after months of trying to scavenge at the Habitat for Humanity and other stores...and looking at cabinets online.  All the extra work to restore and remodel would have either cost as much or slowed me down...and BOY do I want that kitchen done.  Anyway, I'll talk to the person who comes next week to do the measuring about the hood/stove clearance.

Also, thanks for the tip on the hood over the sidewall vent exit. 



Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: OlJarhead on October 11, 2011, 10:44:14 AM
I never thought about getting a hood but I can see the desire to have one in such a small place ;)  On a side note we love our little stove!  The boiler being on the floor is kinda goofy but it does work and we're getting used to it -- also, the oven takes 30-60 seconds to start so don't panick (took me a while to figure that one out) and it uses a lot more electricity then I thought it would (never even checked that)....seems the oven controls require more power then my refrigerator does!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on October 11, 2011, 06:58:46 PM
"seems the oven controls require more power then my refrigerator does!"

Maybe its a glow bar in the oven, from my reading, they need several hundred (500ish) to keep the oven going.

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: OlJarhead on October 11, 2011, 10:54:02 PM
Quote from: considerations on October 11, 2011, 06:58:46 PM
"seems the oven controls require more power then my refrigerator does!"

Maybe its a glow bar in the oven, from my reading, they need several hundred (500ish) to keep the oven going.



watts?  That would make sense as it drew a lot of power from the system.  Saw my voltages drop to below 60% while it was on but then bounced back up right away after it cut off
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on October 12, 2011, 03:07:06 PM
Whoops...yup, watts.  :P
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on October 12, 2011, 03:16:05 PM
Ok....I have PROPANE HEAT  ;D  This is a step up.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on October 12, 2011, 03:21:26 PM
 [cool]
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on October 22, 2011, 11:40:47 AM
Ok - Today's quiz.

I have an outside light "controlled" by an indoor switch.  The switch has a little light in it so I can find it in the dark and turn on the outside light.  I think there is something not quite right. 

The little light in the switch gets brighter and brighter, and then gets dim, repeat, ad nauseum.  Somewhere in that cycle one (yep only one) of the outside bulbs flashes. 

When I noticed it, I immediately replaced the switch with another.  It still happens.

I have another indoor illuminated switch controlling an outside light and this is not happening.

I'm looking for troubleshooting ideas.  I thought switches were either on or off and I'm not comfortable with "unauthorized" electrical currents.
Pictures are worth a thousand words, so if you are inclined, you can watch the short video of what I just described.   

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/th_WierdSwitch.jpg) (https://s282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/?action=view&current=WierdSwitch.mp4)

Thanks in advance for any ideas regarding this.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on October 22, 2011, 12:16:29 PM
 Is this a off grid power source?   Or standard 110 v power from a PUD?

You have a problem either way I'd think.    Shut off the power to that switch and pull it out of the box and  look for a loose wire , wire nut , screw the wire is hooked to the switch with , If the wires to the switch are in the push in to hook up slots , give them a yank to see if any pop out , it should be almost impossible to pull a wire out of the quick connect slots by hand without pliers. If any pop out they'd be highly suspect as part of , or the source of the issue.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: rick91351 on October 22, 2011, 01:02:33 PM
I would guess PEG is right on.  However should be easy to track.  Start there and trace back to the place you split from.  If you do not find it there look for gremlins, elves, hobbits and trolls.  Myself I think it is a loose wire nut.  Do you have any over crowded J Boxes?  Some times when you go to shoving and folding and folding and shoving to get them all inside tension occurs and wire nuts loosen.     
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Rob_O on October 22, 2011, 01:08:23 PM
Are you using the same type of bulb on both of the outdoor lights?
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on October 22, 2011, 02:06:51 PM
"Is this a off grid power source?"  Yes - Solar/Batteries/Gen channeled through a Prosine 2.0 inverter.

"Are you using the same type of bulb on both of the outdoor lights?" No, they are both LEDs but the other one looks similar to a traditional incandescent bulb.

"Shut off the power to that switch and pull it out of the box and  look for a loose wire , wire nut , screw the wire is hooked to the switch with , If the wires to the switch are in the push in to hook up slots , give them a yank to see if any pop out , it should be almost impossible to pull a wire out of the quick connect slots by hand without pliers. If any pop out they'd be highly suspect as part of , or the source of the issue."

"Start there and trace back to the place you split from.  If you do not find it there look for gremlins, elves, hobbits and trolls."

Thought I had when I replaced the switch, but I'll do it again.   Thanks for the coaching, I'll report back.







Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: rick91351 on October 22, 2011, 02:15:04 PM
Wow it might be a funky LED of some type.  Move bulb a to bulb b and try that.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Rob_O on October 22, 2011, 03:07:49 PM
Quote from: rick91351 on October 22, 2011, 02:15:04 PMMove bulb a to bulb b and try that.

Exactly. Changing the switch didn't change anything so attack the other end of the circuit
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on October 22, 2011, 04:42:47 PM
Does this happen all the time? Or does this only happen when there are no electrical devices in use at all; no other lights, fans, radios, or anything, other than the switch pilot lights?

AND, does that inverter have a "search" function. If you are not sure about that,  that is the sort of thing where the inverter looks for, searches for, a device that needs power. It's sort of asleep. Like when a regular, non pilot light equipped, switch is turned on, the inverter then sees the need to supply 120 VAC power to that device and then turns on the inverter AC output.

Our Outback inverter has that feature and it is programmable to load. It sends out a pulse (interval is programmable too). When a load is sensed it turns on. The trigger load is adjustable/programmable down to where the switch pilot light can be sensed or not sensed. I have ours set to where the switch pilot will turn on the inverter. Stepping the sensitivity one "notch" and I can make the switch alone not trip the inverter into action.

If this is the case, then that pilot light should stayed lighted at a constant illumination level when any other device (light, appliance, whatever) is on and drawing power. If one switch does it and another does not it could be because of some internal difference in the power draws.

The regularity makes me believe this is the case. All the GFCI receptacles we have in the cabin have green LED indicator lights. When the inverter is in search mode they all blink with metronome like regularity. They glow constant as soon as a device is in use.

Does this same thing happen when house power comes direct from a generator?

If you simply remove the exterior lamp what happens then?
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: rick91351 on October 22, 2011, 05:07:30 PM
So MD with the inverter in this case is looking for a demand to load? 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on October 22, 2011, 05:20:43 PM
Looking for a demand to fill. That's what it seems like to me.

Search is a handy function especially if the sensing load and pulse can be programmed. The Outback also lets the user program the delay between sensing a load and powering up. Using the search function saves battery capacity. It has its drawbacks. Our microwave doesn't draw enough power when it sits there just plugged in. It doesn't draw enough power to trip the inverter unless the inverter sensitivity is turned way up. That causes the inverter to run all the time though.

I wired the microwave receptacle as well as the receptacles for the TV, the radio and the recepatcle I use for the laptop through there own wall switches with built in pilot lights. So for the microwave I found I need to have an LED night light plugged into the receptacle alomng with the microwave. When we want to microwave, we flip the switch on, the LED lamp lights, the inverter powers up and then the microwave will work.

Sounds complicated but with forethought to placing the switches and receptacles (mostly split to one half switched and the other half unswitched) it has now become second nature. We use the pilot light switches for exterior lights too, BUT the opposite type. By that I mean the pilot is ON only when the switch is ON; that serves as notice that something is turned on. All the pilot lighted switches I have are of that type. I wanted a reminder that something was drawing power more than I needed to be able to find the switch in the dark.



Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on October 22, 2011, 05:37:57 PM
Added comment:  Actually it looks like the inverter is supplying enough power to keep the pilot illuminated with a soft glow, but it's still searching for more power to supply. Sort of strange.  ???  But maybe that's how this Xantrex works. I looked up the 2.0 manual and it does have what they refer to as "load sensing".

If the switch pilot is doing this thing, does the inverter make noises? If a device is turned on does the inverter seem to come alive? If that's the right word?

I can hear an soft but audible click from our inverter when it is searching.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Rob_O on October 22, 2011, 06:17:48 PM
consideration: There must be some of that "unauthorized" current flow for the light in the switch to illuminate.

If the bulb uses a voltage regulator circuit instead of just a resistor that current could build across the circuit until the outside light flashes and the process repeats. Move the problem bulb to the other outdoor socket and let us know what happens

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: TheWire on October 24, 2011, 11:06:41 PM
I second Rob_O's hunch.  Those switches are made to light-up using the current leaking through an incandescent bulb when the switch is off.  Normally the tiny amount of leakage current would never allow an incandescent bulb to get close to illuminating, but an LED bulb with its circuit that allows it to use 120VAC could sit there and charge itself up until it had enough voltage to begin conducting then use up it charge in a flash.  It could also be the load sensing on the inverter or a combination of both.  Turn another light on to keep the inverter on and stop it from doing the load sensing pulse then see what happens.  I would guess those illuminated switches will cause issues with a off-grid home that has a load sensing inverter.

If you need to see the switches in the dark consider a glow in the dark wall plate or an small 12V LED light in the area.  I have about 6 of these LED lights over my stairs, in my hall, bath and on my porch.  They are waterproof, use 0.04A at 12V, cost $6, throw enough light to read by or safely light a stairwell and last 10+ years.  http://www.superbrightleds.com/cgi-bin/store/index.cgi?action=DispPage&category=MLED&Page2Disp=%2Fspecs%2FLPC_malibu.htm (http://www.superbrightleds.com/cgi-bin/store/index.cgi?action=DispPage&category=MLED&Page2Disp=%2Fspecs%2FLPC_malibu.htm)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on October 26, 2011, 12:33:53 PM
Ok.....TheWire, Rob_O, and again Mountain Don get the gold stars for correctly answering the "quiz" question.  However, I'm grateful to all of you who weighed in on the issue.  It was the group conversation that evolved into a working theory. 

I pulled the LED spotlights and replaced them with incandescent....just to save me going through the exercise of searching for bad connections again.  And....(drum roll)...with the incandescent bulbs there is no flashing bulb and no building up and fading of the glow in the switch. Thank you all for putting your minds to this issue, electricity has my respect, and I admit I was worried that I'd done something poorly.  I will now find an alternate way to show the way to the switch in a dark room....Whew.

On another happy note, I now have 3 little windows in the stairwell....and even on a gloomy NW day, they really make a difference. 

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_2305a.jpg)

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_2307a.jpg)

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_2311a.jpg)

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_2309a.jpg)

;D


And Mountain Don.....The little propane heater that we both now have is more than adequate for my 14 x 24 with an open loft.  We have not had our coldest days, yet, but I've not had to use it past a 1/3 of the dial above "LOW" (without a fire supplementing the heat).....and last night it hit the high 30's outside.  I'm looking forward to testing it in the coldest days. 

So, you forum lurkers....here's another fantastic validation of the value of this forum.  The cost of the plans gets very small when considering the "free" support and advice coming from super experienced participants in this forum.  c*

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: OlJarhead on October 26, 2011, 02:52:27 PM
Amen there!

I've often thought about some auxiliary heat for mine also but more for helping to get it up to temp when we show up after being away in the winter -- last year we once arrived to find the cabin at 18 degrees!  Took 4 hours to get above freezing I think -- or it was two hours to get above and 3 more to get to 50...can't remember but you get the idea.

Anyway, it would also be useful for the composting toilet shed -- keeping it above 55 degrees would mean it would thaw out and actually work for us...but so far that isn't an issue as it's got plenty of room to work as a holding tank through the winter :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on October 26, 2011, 03:57:53 PM
"composting toilet shed -- keeping it above 55 degrees would mean it would thaw out and actually work for us"

I'm seriously considering the Sun-mar with the little heater in the composting part....Living here full time and the bathroom likely the coldest room in the house....it would be a real bummer if it did not compost properly. 

I think it only uses a couple hundred watts when it gets too cold....but I'll have to look it up again....and choose carefully.  200 watts counts around here.

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: OlJarhead on October 26, 2011, 04:08:47 PM
Quote from: considerations on October 26, 2011, 03:57:53 PM
"composting toilet shed -- keeping it above 55 degrees would mean it would thaw out and actually work for us"

I'm seriously considering the Sun-mar with the little heater in the composting part....Living here full time and the bathroom likely the coldest room in the house....it would be a real bummer if it did not compost properly. 

I think it only uses a couple hundred watts when it gets too cold....but I'll have to look it up again....and choose carefully.  200 watts counts around here.

The dehydrator on the Sunmar AC/DC 2000 draws up to 300 or 360 watts in AC mode when the heater is on....When I need to run that (ok make then when I guess I need to do that) I run the generator.  Usually I couple this with other tasks like running a saw etc...but mostly we don't worry about i t because the unit in DC mode uses very little energy and works fine for weekend use (we use it every other weekend pretty much all year long with only occasional week long stays).
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on October 26, 2011, 04:19:25 PM
I do not recall the wattage of the bottom heater in the stand alone AC models. We have that. When it is freezing here I don't think it would help much unless the toilet was inside. Then the warm room would keep it warm.

Ours is outside and there is no composting from late fall through spring. It was not a great choice for us.

Next year I'm building an outdoor loo (privy). Much of what we collect in the SunMar will be cycled through it. For the past couple years it gets burned with a pile of debris, tree slash.

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: OlJarhead on October 26, 2011, 04:37:10 PM
Quote from: MountainDon on October 26, 2011, 04:19:25 PM
I do not recall the wattage of the bottom heater in the stand alone AC models. We have that. When it is freezing here I don't think it would help much unless the toilet was inside. Then the warm room would keep it warm.

Ours is outside and there is no composting from late fall through spring. It was not a great choice for us.

Next year I'm building an outdoor loo (privy). Much of what we collect in the SunMar will be cycled through it. For the past couple years it gets burned with a pile of debris, tree slash.

I think the stand alone units must have a small capacity compared to the Centrex 2000's -- having said that I've seriously considered a Dickson wood stove (8000 btus) for my Composter Shed.

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on October 26, 2011, 04:53:04 PM
300 watts on the AC and the AC/DC models

Too much for heating by PV modules, IMO.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on October 27, 2011, 09:29:10 AM
"Next year I'm building an outdoor loo..."

I've been living with one for several years (the blue plastic kind)....the "adventure" wears a little thin when there is ice on the inside walls.  The Excel Compact model, according to the website uses 200 watts, and the time it would kick on the most is in the winter when there is little sun to garner power from the panels.  I still have more thinking to do.  At least the plastic loo is reliable, and a nice young man (poor soul) cleans my "bathroom" every week.  I'm pondering the cost/benefit of the savings from not paying for loo rental and service vs. the cost of generator gas.  Certainly more panels would help some.

Crape' Diem   :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Native_NM on October 27, 2011, 09:35:39 AM
Quote from: considerations on October 27, 2011, 09:29:10 AM
"Next year I'm building an outdoor loo..."

I've been living with one for several years (the blue plastic kind)....the "adventure" wears a little thin when there is ice on the inside walls.  The Excel Compact model, according to the website uses 200 watts, and the time it would kick on the most is in the winter when there is little sun to garner power from the panels.  I still have more thinking to do.  At least the plastic loo is reliable, and a nice young man (poor soul) cleans my "bathroom" every week.  I'm pondering the cost/benefit of the savings from not paying for loo rental and service vs. the cost of generator gas.  Certainly more panels would help some.

Crape' Diem   :)

Our friends in Pecos, NM did something like this...

http://www.wikihow.com/Construct-a-Small-Septic-System

Hunting/summer cabin;  primarily weekend use.   
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: tommytebco on October 27, 2011, 10:29:00 AM
the A-frame guy in Kentucky, eaglesSJ,  did one of those a little while ago. He documented each step in his thread. There were three people on his system.

http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=9259.0

I'd sure consider it versus getting up close and friendly with a slop bucket on a regular basis.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: OlJarhead on October 27, 2011, 03:36:12 PM
Quote from: considerations on October 27, 2011, 09:29:10 AM
"Next year I'm building an outdoor loo..."

I've been living with one for several years (the blue plastic kind)....the "adventure" wears a little thin when there is ice on the inside walls.  The Excel Compact model, according to the website uses 200 watts, and the time it would kick on the most is in the winter when there is little sun to garner power from the panels.  I still have more thinking to do.  At least the plastic loo is reliable, and a nice young man (poor soul) cleans my "bathroom" every week.  I'm pondering the cost/benefit of the savings from not paying for loo rental and service vs. the cost of generator gas.  Certainly more panels would help some.

Crape' Diem   :)

If it were inside the cabin in a small bathroom you wouldn't use the heat in it except on cold mornings/evenings :)

Something to consider.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: CjAl on November 05, 2011, 09:23:56 AM
Quote from: tommytebco on October 27, 2011, 10:29:00 AM
the A-frame guy in Kentucky, eaglesSJ,  did one of those a little while ago. He documented each step in his thread. There were three people on his system.

http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=9259.0

I'd sure consider it versus getting up close and friendly with a slop bucket on a regular basis.
that was a great read. Ambitious is an understatement for that guy
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on November 17, 2011, 09:48:59 AM
 Hokay...a little more progress.

A functional shower: ;D
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_2324a.jpg)

Sliding door access to under stairs storage:
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_2513a.jpg)

B4 kitchen:
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_2514a.jpg)

After kitchen:
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_2516a.jpg)

Life is starting to enter the realm of normalcy. (whew)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on November 17, 2011, 09:58:39 AM
 [cool]  Seems like it is all coming together.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Sassy on November 17, 2011, 04:15:47 PM
Wow, considerations!  Looking good  c*  You've been busy - bet it's nice to get that shower in - I like the tile on the floor.  You are doing a wonderful job, I'm impressed!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on November 17, 2011, 05:57:18 PM
I tried 6 ways from Sunday to do those cabinets myself....ended up buying them.  Still, it was worth it.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Gary O on November 17, 2011, 06:28:55 PM
Progess is sweet.
Nicely done.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: OlJarhead on November 18, 2011, 12:08:52 PM
Awesome!  [cool]
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: duncanshannon on November 19, 2011, 02:58:30 PM
looking good. surprising how different the kitchen 'after' pic was!   [cool]
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on November 19, 2011, 08:36:30 PM
Its even more of an effect when standing there....suddenly the room shrank!  I've been living with blank walls and portable everything so the change made quite an impression.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: altaoaks on January 29, 2012, 11:57:53 PM
Hi Considerations, I just took the time to look in to your build, you have come so far since the last time I was here.  You look like a real home now!  Congratulations on your incredible progress!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on January 30, 2012, 10:53:24 AM
No structural progress since winter hit....and doing indoor trim has slowed down. If I varnish the trim in a warm room it is too easy to get kitty prints on it, and if I put the boards out in the "sun room" and close it off, the varnish takes days and days to cure..so I'm not spending my time on it. However, I've built two kits from Catskill Cabinets, one for the kitchen and one for the bathroom.  The are a "red maple" and the wood is very pretty. One I did not put on wheels, and eventually will install the bathroom sink on, and the other is my rolling breakfast bar/bread making station. IMO they really add style to the house. 

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_2630small.jpg)

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_2629small.jpg)

Unlike many of you, a kit is the only way I could manage a foray in to the world of cabinetry, but I think they turned out well.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: rick91351 on January 30, 2012, 12:10:52 PM
They turned out very nice.  Some of the kits are great to work with!  Some are worse than a Chinese Jig Saw Puzzle.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: altaoaks on January 31, 2012, 01:15:45 AM
Considerations, those cabinents came out great, and the wood is very nice, looks like a good quality kit.  I love the bathroom vanity basin, nice touch!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on January 31, 2012, 08:33:01 AM
Thank you. I've not yet completely thought through the basin installation but I'll get there.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Carla_M on February 01, 2012, 01:00:40 PM
Considerations, I must congratulate you on your cabin. [cool] It looks great. You must be deservedly proud of your achievement. It took me quite a while to read through the entire length of the thread. I did spread it out over time while I was lurking. ;D
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on February 01, 2012, 09:42:38 PM
"I did spread it out over time..."

Don't worry, this "build" has been spread out over time. I started about May 2008 thinking I'd be done in a year....oh well, at least I get lots of time to ponder before I start another phase.  [waiting]

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on February 01, 2012, 11:36:33 PM
Beautiful cabinets Considerations.  Great job.  Time... whats that?   I've been on the Underground Complex for 10 years and never plan to finish it.  [waiting]

Old Chinese Proverb....   " The man who finishes his house dies." ... Hey, that's good enough for me.  :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on February 03, 2012, 03:52:51 PM
Thanks Glenn, good advice to integrate.  Got some work....finally! Things were running a little thin again.

My little brown cat disappeared Jan 6....today I saw the big female eagle airlifting some limp furry form from the alders out back.  Ran out to count noses again....my other 2 cats are still around. Somewhere there is a fuzzy white eaglet with a microchip in its belly.   :-\
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on February 11, 2012, 12:45:05 PM
This little enclave is a long way from town, and each family has its own set of talents here.  i help people with their interactions with corporate America....things that can be done before its time to call a lawyer and maybe avoid that step entirely, and all things textile, sewing, quilting, mending...and in turn, others share where there is a need in the areas they are skilled in.  This has benefited me with excavating, home protection, some of the construction, firewood splitting, and fresh eggs to name a few. 

The only real bone of contention I see around here is the stupid dog thing.  Everyone but me has dogs.  They all clamor about other's dogs coming over and tangling/breeding/being a bad influence on their own dogs, but no one does anything about it.  The part that seems silly to me is that they all participate in this behavior, and then base the quality of their friendships on the actions of the uncontrolled dogs.  I'm not advocating any sort of change in how they handle the dog behavior, just that they recognize that no one is taking any serious action about it, and quit getting upset over what happens. 

My place is "cat haven", 'cause the dogs don't like my electric fences but the cats just glide under them.  Even the neighbor cats come to play and visit.  I don't feel a need for dogs what with the current canine population distribution all around me.  If an intruder, human or otherwise arrives in the area, the chorus of canine alerts is a pretty clear and directional warning system.

Guess that last is the "rant for the day", sorry.

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on June 10, 2012, 10:33:05 AM
Seems this has been the spring of horse shelters.  The climate here is pretty temperate, and good blankets have to date been sufficient...things always change however.  This spring my gelding got laminitis, a nasty inflammation of the hoof wall on one front hoof.  The reasonable way to treat this is in a tightly controlled environment involving a stall to limit movement, and a super clean floor to avoid/treat infections/abscesses.  To say this is a painful condition for a horse is an understatement.  So, resources have been channeled to building the shelter and vet/farrier bills. The long term benefit is that the horses now have shelter, and Mister "Buckethead" is on the mend.  Poor guy is bored to tears after a month incarcerated, but he's alive, and it could have been different.  Horses do not generally die directly from laminitis, but if they cannot walk, the attendant complications can force some difficult choices.  Good news is things did not get that far along.

This has generated a huge supply of "used" wood shavings, so now all my orchard trees and raised beds have a generous layer of mulch on them.  Looks quite tidy and the shavings will eventually become soil.  I don't think I have to worry much about the nitrogen being taken from the under lying soil as Mister produces prodigious amounts of nitrates and distributes them throughout the shavings on a quite regular schedule.

Meanwhile, the cabin finishing is languishing, only little items are being addressed, like switch plate covers, etc. 

I know I've not posted for awhile, but that does not mean I don't check in to see what else is happening with forum members. 

Work is sporadic, but lucrative when it comes in.  I'm in the process of helping a company sell itself, which is really interesting and fun, but will be the last "hurrah" with this client as all the stockholders will then retire. 

I made beer!  It turned out well, I think. I just used the Mr. Beer kit and followed the directions.  I'm not a regular drinker, but good beer that doesn't break the bank is appealing. Also, it appealed to me in that the refill ingredients are packed for long term storage, so the components could be added to my "food stash" and the product be a barter item in the event of a regional disaster.  In the mean time, I'm just pleased with the taste and the sense of accomplishment. 

Next is making aged cheese.  I've made just about every kind of fresh cheese I know about and seldom have to buy yogurt anymore, but aged cheese would be really nice to produce, partly due to the recent extreme rise in prices....so I hope to have something to say about that process soon.

I have found two exotic plants that the bees absolutely love.  I'm always looking for ways to persuade honeybees onto the property as they are important for pollinating the fruit trees and plants here.  I'd like to have a hive of my own, but as yet I do not feel I have enough flowering plants that would feed and keep them here during spring through fall.  Anyhow, one plant is a ground cover shrub called a Cotoneaster.  The bees are all over it, to the point where from a distance it looks like the bush is moving.  The other is a Ceanothus, there are many varieties, this one being one that can be sculpted into a small "treey" shape.  Anyway, this is exciting to me as they both are really attractive to honey bees.

I've made a sour dough starter, and am happy with the pancakes and bread it is producing.

Through good luck and bartering I'm also now the proud owner of a side grinder and a drill press...already both have been very handy.  Some things just cannot be done well without specific tools, anyway, excellent additions to the arsenal.

So, not much to report about getting the cabin done, but certainly a lot of progress in the domestic living categories.

Hope to have some substantive progress to report on the cabin finishing now that the crisis mode with my horse/friend/kid is over.  (My sappy side is now fully revealed).



Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on June 10, 2012, 10:52:12 AM
Quote from: considerations on May 09, 2008, 08:44:52 PM


(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/DumpedErrrUnloaded.jpg)



Nice report , thinking  of where you started , cover plates are pretty easy!  c*
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on June 10, 2012, 11:04:17 AM
Have to agree with PEG on the somewhat completion of your house.  As the saying goes " you've come a long way baby"  ;)  I am glad that I was with you for the ride. I remember when it started.

As for the grinder/drill press I will quote a saying you once made.  "I used to giggle when I saw all the discussion on this forum about "having the right tool".  I just thought it was a "guy" thing.  I was so wrong...." ;D
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Sassy on June 10, 2012, 11:44:22 AM
Great to hear from you, considerations!  You've been a very busy & productive lady  c*  Guess there's no smiley holding up a beer mug  ;D 

I have one problem with your posting, tho...  Where's the pictures   [noidea'  You coulda at least have posted pictures of your barn, etc...  Glenn had to post pics of all his unnatural resources  [scared] rofl

You've really accomplished a lot!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on June 10, 2012, 08:31:53 PM
"Where's the pictures?  You coulda at least have posted pictures of your barn, etc..."
OK OK....somehow uploading to Photobucket didn't hit the top of the list....stay tuned...  :) really...don't touch that dial....[rofl2]

Honestly I think most of us are similar in that we have more items on the list than we will ever get done...certainly I cannot imagine a life of sitting around with "nothing" to do.  Not sure thats even a life....

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on June 28, 2012, 10:45:48 PM
ok. Pics of 3.5 day barn. metal roof on right half coming Tuesday next.
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_2981small.jpg)

Head of the pruning platoon, landscape company.
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_2979small.jpg)

Portrait of boredom.
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_2984small.jpg)




Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Sassy on June 29, 2012, 12:08:58 AM
Nice work, considerations!  I see you also have a pruning & landscape company  :D  Horses look content... 

I sometimes forget how green it is in western Washington...  guess there's tradeoffs - constant rain & green or sunshine, dry & brown...   isn't there a happy medium?
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on June 29, 2012, 12:15:42 AM
"isn't there a happy medium?"

Yes, acceptance of where one is.  Each place has its own beauty. We choose what resonates with oneself. c*
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: PEG688 on July 03, 2012, 11:21:49 PM
Quote from: considerations on June 29, 2012, 12:15:42 AM
"isn't there a happy medium?"

Yes, acceptance of where one is.  Each place has its own beauty. We choose what resonates with oneself. c*


Still waters run deep!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: chris2013 on July 13, 2012, 11:17:00 AM
Considerations, thnx to you and everyone else for this adventure. great that people share like this.

i got to about page fifteen, and like a good book, had to go to the end; but mostly, i have a couple of quick questions that you might have a minute to consider?

am retiring from teaching in three or four years and have some land for a summer place picked out in central Idaho. i noticed around page 13 way back in aug of 2008, you gave a financial accounting up to that point of about 10K. where did you finish, budget wise? at 10k, being half way done i thought maybe you would double that amount and so i was calculating the price per sq ft at about $60. would you now say that that is a realistic budget for a small cabin?

the second question is more of an equine type: with the pasture and lots of green and your own land, what would you say the cost of caring for buckethead is, roughly, on an annual basis?

thnx and thnx to all. it has been and will continue to be fun reading thru the pages.
chris
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on July 14, 2012, 01:32:26 PM
chris2013 re: $60 per square foot.  This is going to have an awful lot to do with how much you hire out. 

First, I must say I'm not finished. There are plenty of raw edges around here, none of which I believe will substantially add to costs.

I'm able to do more and more of the finish work myself.  I'm down to finishing the wall coverings upstairs, putting up exterior siding, finishing the floor insulation, and finalizing the electrical i.e.; switch plate covers and a few more built-in light installations.  I've got 2 sinks left to hook up.  The good news is that along the journey, I've learned enough to do these things myself and most of the materials and tools are here.

Second, I probably hired more out than some, for reasons ranging from total ignorance (or fear i.e.; the roof) to a drive for faster progress.  My cabin currently is the basic 14 x 24 with 10' walls, a 12/12 roof and an 8 x 24 sun room added alongside. 

There have been a lot of other projects that have been pulled together around here concurrently with the cabin build and to tease out the specific cabin costs is going to be a guess...so consider the "methodology".  I think about $60K has gone to the cabin, perhaps 60% of that being materials. 

One really huge expense in that materials "guesstimate" is the kitchen, which except for the sink hook up, was completely purchased; materials and installation was just under $4k. Major ouch, but so worth it. 

Appliances such as stoves, fridges, water heaters, etc are big parts of costs as are the solar power components.

I am an optimist or I never would have tackled this life style in the first place....however, when estimating building costs, I've learned that the less I know, the more it costs and the longer it takes...so.  I price the materials for a project, I add another 50% for the ancillary stuff I didn't know I needed, and plan on it taking at least twice as long as I thought.  During this research it will become fairly evident whether I know enough and/or have the right tools and/or skills to actually do it myself or if I'm brave or stupid enough to tackle it or just better hire it done.  If I hire it out....I get a quote, in writing.

No kidding about the estimating.  Electrical is a good example; one gets the outlet and switches, the wire, drill bits and think one is ready to go...not.  There are little twisty cones to splice connections, more breakers for the main breaker box, special wire for circuits if one wants a switch in two places, more special wire to fish the electrical wire through difficult spots, switch plate spacers....on and on.  However, having "gotten my hands dirty" when the electrician was here, and inching through the solar power setup on my own has given me the confidence to complete the simple unfinished bits of interior electrical work.

Its fun, nerve wracking, exciting, rewarding, frustrating, sometimes a little painful, and I would not trade it for anything.  I just encourage you to acknowledge up front that there are going to be things you don't know that you don't know...and leave enough room in your time and $ plans for that to happen and still laugh.

Ok, the horses. I have 2, because I believe that being herd animals, they go a little crazy if forced to live alone.

Pastures are pretty much useless (no nutritional value) in the winter, so purchasing hay is necessary from at least late October to early April say 6 months.  For 2 horses that is about 5 tons.  There is a major drought on nationwide and has been for a few years. Hay and grains (thank you bio-fuel industry) have at least doubled in cost in the last 3 years.  I'm paying $335 a ton now for hay that was $150 3 years ago.  So, $2000 for hay, $400 for feed and supplements, $500 each for vaccinations and worming. $450 for farriers (hoof trimming) and nobody but me is wearing shoes right now, double that for shoeing. That totals $3,800.  This does not include vet bills when something goes wrong (figure one "incident" a year), fencing materials and maintenance, tack, shelter, and water.

They also need the time and attention you would give at least a dog if not a child. They are smarter than one might think (ok, some are), and have distinct personalities and moods.  They bond to a family just like a child does. (its a herd thing).

I love them, but if you don't have horses now, please do your research and make sure you are willing to make the financial and emotional investment...imagine gentle thousand pound dogs longing for attention and never underestimate the capabilities of a curious horse. 

I recently had Mr. Buckethead on a long term course of antibiotics, the same kind humans take. Human dosage would have been 1 tablet 2 x a day.  His was 15 tablets 2 x a day.  Adds up.  Of course the antics, tricks, subterfuge, coercion, bribery, and any other magic I had to come up with to get him to actually take them was a source of great amusement (mostly).  Smart boy with prehensile lips.  Who needs opposing thumbs when you have prehensile lips?

Guess what I'm saying is an ATV doesn't cost much when its parked, nor will it develop a neurosis if ignored.  It most certainly won't pick the latch on the stall door, break through the pasture fence, let the horse down the road out and lead a thundering herd down toward the highway, evading all well intentioned neighbors until getting the excitement out of its system. :)




Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: chris2013 on July 15, 2012, 05:21:13 AM
Thank you for your consideration. a thorough and complete answer.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on July 20, 2012, 12:23:28 PM
"a thorough and complete answer."  You are welcome....then again, opinions are like belly buttons...everyone has one.  ;D

So time to update a little, straw berries are picked and processed, raspberries and salmon berries are ongoing.  I had quite a surprise with the raspberries, they turned out a little different than I anticipated.  Didn't even know this color existed.
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_3009.jpg)

I think they taste a little mellower than I'm used to, but will have to try that with a blindfold on to see if my eyes are fooling me.

The climbing roses are finally tall enough to start training horizontally along the trellis
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_2991.jpg)

After being invisible for a couple years a juvenile mountain beaver made an appearence. It is so young and small I thought someone's guinea pig had gotten loose. They are not very bright, I think, because as I was driving down the driveway it kept running in front of the vehicle. Even the quail have enough sense to dive into the bushes.  Anyhow, I had time to snatch this little photo on the phone.
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/0717121222bsmall.jpg)

I take some comfort in knowing these little guys still exist, in spite of our best efforts.  ;)

Had a tenant problem in the swallow condo this year.  The returning swallows decided they wanted the upper unit this year...as did a queen yellow jacket.  The bad news is that the swallow laid 3 eggs before being evicted...so those eggs got abandoned.
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_3000.jpg)

The good news is that the nesting urge was evidently very urgent, so she moved into the lower unit, and as near as I can tell, is raising at least 3 chicks without too much flack from the upstairs tenants. 
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_3030.jpg)

There are usually 6 chicks, so I'm pretty sure this is the same bird as laid the abandoned eggs.  I'll be tearing down and renovating the unit after they fledge, and hopefully discourage this conflict next year.

I warned the pear trees that if they didn't fruit this year, I'd tear them out and plant filberts....obligingly they both coughed up a few. One on one tree and about 4 on the other.
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_2993.jpg)

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_2989.jpg)

Now to find a place for those filbert trees....The English walnut is yet to produce.  All these trees were planted as 2 year saplings in 2007....so maybe next year for walnuts...even one would be a good thing.  :P

The best news of all is that Mr. Buckethead is finally out of "jail". After 2.5 months of confinement to a 12 x 12 stall, the vet and the farrier pronounced his foot healed enough to allow his access to the paddock...but no green grass...so no pasture.  Come to find out, the long term result of laminitis is insulin resistance...yep, for all intents and purposes, diabetes.  Egads.

So, until and unless he gets a lot more exercise than he has been...no green grass (starch and sugar).  Wow...I wonder if animal medicine has gotten to the point of knowing what blood sugar levels are ok for a horse....and if there is a tester for equines.  Fascinating.  One never stops learning.

Got another raised bed started.  After fighting with the clay soil around here for several years, I've just decided to build raised beds and make my own soil.  Not hard with all the kitchen and equine compost available.  The upside of having to clean a stall every day is an abundance of shavings for mulch.  The weed suppression is fantastic.  I planted potatoes in one of these beds and even though I've hilled the box to overflowing, the plants are almost 3 feet high...I just hope they are as busy making potatoes as they are making leaves.

Enough, its a rainy day, and the house needs my attention.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: waggin on July 20, 2012, 12:42:00 PM
What's the deal with pears the last two years?  My Bosque and D'Anjou trees blossomed like crazy this year, but I only have a few pears on the D'Anjou and none on the Bosque.  Last year, I had a total of about 20 on the D'Anjou, and that was it.  With all the blossoms, I thought I'd have a bumper crop.  Saw lots of bees this spring, so I figured they were getting pollinated, and it didn't seem like we got any bad wind/rain storms during blossom time.  Any thoughts?
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: rick91351 on July 20, 2012, 12:53:32 PM
You are the proud owner of yellow raspberries!!  I know DAHHH!! However we have about 50 feet of them planted and then another 50 feet of purple raspberries.  Neither are doing as well as the reds that are just coming on as well as the Service Berries.  Pronounced SAR - vess berries. Go figure.   ???  They are up at the ranch.

This product of your fur bearing little friends kinfolk gave way last year in the Chinook run off we had.  What a mess it took roads and culverts out.  I always have marveled at there skills and work ethic.

(https://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt15/rick91351/beaverdam.jpg)

It and a couple more were right next to the road coming out from the ranch.  Have not seem any activity this year.   :(

Your potato bed if it is loose as it sounds that it might be you can burrow down with you hands carefully and collect some baby potatoes without harming the plant and other potatoes so I have been told.  We knew a lady that claimed to do such all the time.  Saved the cost of those expensive little guys in the market.

I missed out on the horse problem.  Is this sort of like foundering?   ???
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on July 20, 2012, 01:03:53 PM
What I've read is that apples and pears are related, also that pollination rates are much lower for pears than for apples. 

So, since May and June were wet and rainy, which my bees don't care for, and my pear trees did not flower at the same time and require cross pollination, I picked flowers from the earlier blossoming, froze them, then marched out with a paint brush when the second tree bloomed to facilitate the pollination. 

I suspect that pears like more heat than apples, seem to be fussier about pollination, and need "help" to produce in Western Washington, when spring is not friendly to bees.

I keep planting more bee friendly flowers, hoping someday to have a hive of my own, when there is enough here to keep them fed. 

There is a great series on YouTube called the Victorian Kitchen Garden...it covers the challenges of a walled estate garden in England.  Point being, their climate is similar to ours, and they use interesting and extraordinary measures to bring heat to different types of fruit for successful cultivation.  Really enlightening. I learned a lot about gardening in a "pre-chemical" world.  Very, very, clever, worth watching.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: rick91351 on July 20, 2012, 01:17:52 PM
Quote from: waggin on July 20, 2012, 12:42:00 PM
What's the deal with pears the last two years?  My Bosque and D'Anjou trees blossomed like crazy this year, but I only have a few pears on the D'Anjou and none on the Bosque.  Last year, I had a total of about 20 on the D'Anjou, and that was it.  With all the blossoms, I thought I'd have a bumper crop.  Saw lots of bees this spring, so I figured they were getting pollinated, and it didn't seem like we got any bad wind/rain storms during blossom time.  Any thoughts?

Sound like you me pear blossom blight.

http://www.ehow.com/facts_7466853_pear-blossom-blight.html

I would spray early with dormant spray.  I would also do a lime-sulfur spay a few day later and before the trees bud.  I think is is okay up until the buds swell.  Sulfur spay is one of the earliest organics known from what I have read.  I have also read you can spray your trees with lime sulfur after your late Autumn clean up to help control spores and fungaus that over winter as well.  You guys with your mild but wet winters and springs might be a challenge but it really think do able. 

This has a real handy guide on the left hand side of the page.  However I am not plugging the company at all.  Never ordered from them or even talked to them.

http://www.johnsonnursery.com/OrchardSupplies.htm

rlr     
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on July 20, 2012, 01:21:54 PM
"I missed out on the horse problem.  Is this sort of like foundering?"

Laminitis is founder.  "Laminitis" is the modern "vet world" name, "founder" being an older name and describes what happens to the horse when they cannot walk because of it.  Like a ship cannot sail when it has foundered on an underwater obstruction, like a beach or reef.

No foot, no horse. It was pretty bad, agony for Mr. and agony to watch. Started the first week of May, and I got him into a stall on May 8.  Basically it is an inflammation of the lamini (read "nail bed").  Horses have only one toe on each foot, so a hoof is a "toe nail". An inflammation of the nail bed is not good.  The hoof starts to separate from the lamini, which is bad enough, but add to that dirt and bacteria getting into the separation and causing abscesses, and they just get crippled.  There are more and worse possible complications eventually resulting in a fatality, but we seem to have dodged those bullets.

Bottom line is the inflammation somehow comes from green grass or rich feed, there is still a lot to be learned, but seems metabolic in source.  I was stunned, Mr. has been on pasture for years, and this never came up before.  However, there is a famous saying in the equine world: "Hmm, he never did THAT before!".

So now I'm looking at the pastures and thinking maybe cutting them for hay this year. Better than mowing once a week.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: waggin on July 20, 2012, 01:54:20 PM
Thanks Rick and Considerations for the tips.  I do have some sort of leaf curl/fungus/pest issue that became visible after blossoms fell off, so that makes sense.  Never heard the blossom storing/freezing trick; maybe next year I'll do that just in case.  Seemed like there were lots of bees pollinating though this spring.  Oddly, last year my trees were overflowing with apples, yet my neighbor 3/8 mile or so away didn't have any.  Thankfully, my apple trees are loaded again with tasty Liberties and Akanes.   [hungry]
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 26, 2012, 12:09:32 PM
Well...the adventure continues. I've always pined for more solar panels, thinking I'd like to run off them more than I run off the gens. (Duhh!)  Current research seems to show that the 160/170watt 12v panels are a dying breed. Cannot seem to find even a close equivalent in the Sharp brand I currently own let alone any other brand I'm remotely familiar with.

However, in a bittersweet stroke of apparent luck, I've located some 170 watt panels...they appear to be 12v.  I've always had to really stretch to understand the whole PV system, but I think these would work.  I'm not wild about the brand "Jinshi" (fill in the source country blank and my personal leaning), but the fact that they even exist...and the price...so; if some more knowledgeable forum participant would like to look at these with me and respond with their wisdom/opinion, I'd be appreciative.  I'd like to get 4, but with racks and shipping, likely less.

I believe I'm supposed to add PV panels that do not vary more than 10% in specifications.

The system is 12v

I have 2 Sharp 160w 12v panels up and running.

My charge controller is a Xantrex C40.

The breaker is a DC 60 amp

The inverter is a Prosine 2.0

The Jinshi panels have MC connectors, which I'm familiar with and like.

http://www.solarsystemsusa.net/solar-panels/panels/jinshi/nbj-170p/

Jinshi:                                                                                  Sharp
Maximum Power at STC (Pmax)    170Wp                                                160w
Maximum Power Voltage (Vmp)    23.6V                                                  22.8v
Minimum Power                         Not listed                                             144w
Maximum Power Current (Imp)    7.20A                                                  7.02A
Open-circuit Voltage (Voc)    28.5V                                                          28.4v
Short-circuit Current (Isc)    7.70A                                                          7.82
Module Efficiency (%)    12.9%                                                        12.21%
Operating Temperature (℃)    -40℃~+90℃                                  -40C - +90C
Maximum System Voltage (V)    DC 1000V(TUV) / DC600V(UL)              600VDC
Maximum Rated Current Series (A)    12A                                           Not listed
Series fuse rating                           Not listed                                             15A
Power Tolerance    0~+3%                                                             Not listed
Temperature Coefficients of Pmax    (-0.45±0.05)%/℃
Temperature Coefficients of Voc    (-0.35±0.02)%/℃
Temperature Coefficients of Isc    (0.05±0.01) %/℃
NOTC (℃)    (47±2)℃

Any brave souls who would like to chime in here?
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: OlJarhead on August 26, 2012, 02:21:26 PM
They appear to be fairly close and I think you're right on the 10% (waiting for the pros to respond) which would be more more then 16watts +/- and you're only 10 watts.  Voltage doesn't seem too far out either.

I went through this when considering getting a 4th panel and seem to think it was 10%.

As for the racks, you could build them out of wood and face them south with a way to change the angle and plan on getting better steel racks at a future date.  After all, the increased charging capacity would be worth it.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on September 27, 2012, 09:30:06 AM
So i finally screw up my courage to commit to those new solar panels....and there are no more of them. Back to square one.   >:(
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on September 29, 2012, 12:57:24 PM
Considerations, you can use about any solar panels you can get for a decent price if you just add a separate controller for them that will reduce the voltage to a regulated 12v.  It doesn't matter then what else is charging your batteries as the regulators will see the voltage of the batteries and regulate themselves independent of the rest.

I get the cheapest Sunelec panels that will fit my needs and then try to add enough to fill my new added controller.  I fit the controller to the amount of panels I want usually choosing an MPPT now.

Here is a small one -good quality that will do 12v but take up to 75ocv input.

http://www.morningstarcorp.com/en/sunsavermppt

Looks like around $230 for that one.

There are other PWM controllers that are cheaper.  C35 Schneider (xantrex) will take 55ocv for $90  C40 will take 125ocv for $120

http://www.affordable-solar.com/store/solar-charge-controller
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on September 29, 2012, 01:05:38 PM
Thinking about this a bit I think you would need a C60 to cover the 500 or so watts you want because of the 12v system.  Low voltage system requires bigger amp controller.  C60 should cover up to 720 w @12v.  C60 takes ocv of 55vdc so keep that in mind looking at panels.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on September 29, 2012, 01:12:19 PM
Your C40 could only handle 480w at 12v so you could only add 160w to it or about 1 panel.  Best to add another controller then panels that match up to its capacity - I know... more money.....[waiting]
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on September 29, 2012, 10:56:22 PM
Glenn - I have figured out and agree that to use more and different panels I need another controller. There is nothing in the spec sheets that talk about watts, only volts and amps, and I don't have the knowledge to talk to you about maximum watts.

So, I'm looking at the volts and amp specs on the controller and comparing it to the "same" volts and amp specs on the panels...thinking that's a reasonable basis for comparison. 

Frankly, I like to have another 1200 watts...oh well.

I have a Xantrex C40 now, and with 2 160 watt 12v panels on it, I'm nowhere near its spec capacity.  I think if I stick to the 450/500 watt goal on an additional C40 I won't fry my system or my wallet. The C40 can take up to 125 Vdc Max PV open circuit array voltage (ocv?)

This is not the vendor, but here are the specs on the C40
http://www.solarpanelstore.com/pdf/c_series_specs.pdf

I've been talking to 2 places, one is a little cavalier about the panel ratings....they make me nervous, the other didn't call me back yet...we had things pretty well figured out, except for checking on their racking stock....so I'm in limbo till Monday.

Once i get a final "package" settled on, I'll post it here and see what you'all think...I appreciate the input.  After all the work, I don't want to foul up what I already have.  ;D
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on September 30, 2012, 03:16:09 PM
Watts divided by volts=amps.  2x160=320watts currently / 12volts = 26.66667 amps

40 amps -26.66667 existing leaves a balance of 13.333333 amps capacity on your current controller.

13.33333 amps x 12 volts (amps times volts equals watts) = 159.99 watts capacity, or one more panel like your existing panels or 480 watts.

If you had a 24 volt system (inverter)  you could have 24v x 40amps or 960 watts on the same controller.  This is what I use.

If you had a 48v system (inverter) you could have 48v x 40 amps or 1920 watts through the same controller.

The volts are the push or pressure through the (electric) hose.... water analogy. Thinking of water makes it easier for some.

The 40 amp hose (controller) can only carry 480 gallons of water (watts) at 12 lbs pressure (volts)

The 40 amp hose (controller) can carry 960 gallons of water (watts) at twice the pressure 24lbs (volts)

Liken this to how wet you get from a low pressure water line or high pressure water line of the same size. 

With higher voltage your cables and wire can get smaller and cheaper as it is easier to push the power through them without excessive line loss - think of friction in a hose.  You then want to connect your panels in series to use higher voltage going into what the controller can handle but not too close as Don has written about the clear cold mornings where voltage will go excessively high and possibly damage your controller.  I stay around 10% below voltage capacity.  It is especially important on mppt controllers to let it choose the voltage the panels run best at.




Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on October 08, 2012, 12:28:50 PM
Sometimes I feel like I'm just swimming upstream..erg.  All prepped to get more PV panels and the inverter blows....not fixable...although I think it is more a function of Xantrex policies than what is wrong with the inverter...Creeps.   >:( 

Have had a few days to explore the holes in my non-electric living strategies....not bad, but electricity is much more fun, and much easier. 

At least I was financially prepared to do SOMETHING...just not what I intended... [waiting]  .and better now than November when I'm gone. Coming home from vacation to a failed freezer can really blow.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: glenn kangiser on October 10, 2012, 09:32:18 PM
Yeah.... that sucks, Considerations....  :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on October 11, 2012, 07:37:31 PM
So, I get the fireproof shelf built for the new inverter, and start moving the wires to the new location. Figured out, I think, how to make the current buss bars work, quit for the day, and was going to hit it hot and heavy in the AM.  I get up this morning, and out of the blue get a phone call from a vet in Port Angeles, 15 miles and a major river away.  A man brought in a stray cat. They checked it out, found a microchip..it is Meg, my kitten (no more), that disappeared the first week of January this year.  She'd been living rough for at least the last 4 months, what happened during the first 5 or 6 months is a mystery...and she's not talking. I, however, am thrilled!

So, no inverter functioning yet, but she's home, after getting looked over and caught up on vaccinations. The day is gone, and her brothers don't seem to recognize her....a little time for integration and I hope all will be fine. What a relief, I felt so bad when she disappeared...thought she had been eaten. Somehow I think she may have gotten a little help getting over that river.  ???
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on October 11, 2012, 08:08:31 PM
 :) :) [cool] [cool]
Must feel great!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on October 12, 2012, 08:57:41 AM
Rain, real rain.  I know, that means it is really autumn....but we've had none since July and I welcome it! ;D This is almost unheard of.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on October 24, 2012, 10:08:02 AM
Well, I did it.  Got the new inverter wired up, flipped the switch(es)...and no fireworks or meltdown and nobody died. Whew! This one is a Magnum, and they weren't kidding, 20lbs heavier than the Xantrex so I had to build a shelf to hold it instead of just screwing it to the wall, fireproofing required..different footprint as well...slightly longer cables..sizing did not have to change luckily. Yagh...glad I don't have to do this every day. Easier to program than the last one. Still getting accustomed to the difference in how the readout works.  Things had really heated up at work, so I only got to spend a few hours a day concentrating on this project.  Like an hour of reading the "book", and an hour of doing what it said....electrical is counter intuitive to me.  This is not an engineer's brain I'm lugging around.  ???  Good news is, I can read and retain long enough to follow instructions.  One thing for sure I want to add is a system bypass (oh boy, more studying "electrical")...lose the inverter, switch to the gen, and not have to drag a bunch of heavy duty extension cords around to get nominal cabin operation...that was not fun. Anyhow it is done, and I get my life back.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on October 24, 2012, 11:01:01 AM
Oh, and a side note...after several years on these 6 volt golf cart batteries, think I'm going to start the thinking on replacement.  Things seem to be holding steady, but batteries have gotten expensive, so saving will take some time.  However, my new experiment....I took the Kill a Watt out to the gen (its small, so I won't blow the Kill a Watt).  There is just enough room to plug it into the face, and the Honda eu's have a built in inverter, and the 2000's are under the max the meter can take, so...in it went.  Hooked the "shore power" line to the Kill a Watt...checked the time, turned off the battery charge mode, and I'm going to leave it there for 24 hours...might help with the battery bank sizing, ya think?  The adventure continues..
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on October 28, 2012, 02:40:06 PM
Quote from: considerations on October 24, 2012, 10:08:02 AM
I want to add is a system bypass (oh boy, more studying "electrical")...lose the inverter, switch to the gen, ......

You lost me there....  that is, if I understand the object this is easy, maybe even built into the inverter or available as a manufacturer accessory kit.  I take this to mean you would like the inverter to automatically switch the generator in as the power source and switch the batteries out after the generator has started.  Yes?   

My Outback has the transfer relay built in; some others do and some others need an accessory kit, IIRC.   It not only makes life easier but it is better for the system when you fire the generator up to do a battery equalization. (That disconnects the system from the batteries to protect DC items from the higher voltage used for equalization.)

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on October 28, 2012, 02:44:59 PM
Quote from: considerations on October 24, 2012, 11:01:01 AMI'm going to leave it there for 24 hours...might help with the battery bank sizing, ya think?

At least 24 hours. Depending on the daily use cycles you may get better information if the measurement is for a week and then averaged out to get the daily.   But I'm not clear (maybe it's my early AM flight lagged brain) about just what you are measuring if it's measuring generator output.  ???
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on October 28, 2012, 07:47:50 PM
"I want to add is a system bypass" 

Things are perhaps a little primitive here compared to what you may have. My gens are Honda 2000eu's. So they have AC electrical outlets on the front.  I plug into one of them with a 10/2 cord, which goes through through a 30amp breaker and then is hardwired to the inverter. 

If the inverter quits working I currently have no way to direct that genset AC direct to the house panel.  Hondas already have an inverter, so their output is clean enough for house appliances.  I want to install a "bypass switch" that will redirect the genset AC to my house panel if the big inverter goes dead again.

"At least 24 hours. Depending on the daily use cycles you may get better information if the measurement is for a week and then averaged out to get the daily.   But I'm not clear (maybe it's my early AM flight lagged brain) about just what you are measuring if it's measuring generator output"


Honda 2000eu gens have an "eco" setting.  They idle until there is a demand then rev to meet the demand. So if anything, I'm measuring heavy...the idle output + demand.  It read out at 5.34Kwh after 24 hours.  Its been raining for days so i think I got nothing from the PV array and the charger setting on the inverter was set to off.  I just ran the furnace, no wood stove, did 2 loads of laundry, worked on the computer, lights of course....seems to work out to 10 L16's to get 3 or 4 days on battery power in the winter....max 50% discharge..more tinkering to follow. I will figure this out, the generators are cheering me on.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on October 28, 2012, 08:14:18 PM
QuoteI want to install a "bypass switch" that will redirect the genset AC to my house panel if the big inverter goes dead again.

Have a look at this automatic transfer switch (http://www.amazon.com/Go-Power-TS-30-Automatic-Transfer/dp/B00153EYTO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1351472967&sr=8-1&keywords=rv+transfer+switch). It's good for up to 30 amps. We had one of these (under the Iota name) in our RV. It was very dependable. The output goes to the AC power / breaker panel. One input is from the inverter, the second input is from the generator. When the generator is started it automatically switches from inverter to generator (in the way I had it set up). It has a delay switch for generator use. That holds the generator offline for 30 seconds when it is started so it can stabilize.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on November 17, 2012, 12:59:13 PM
So, I'm back.  Went to see the kids and grandkids in Houston.  Took Amtrak from Seattle to LA to Houston, then on to New Orleans, Chicago and back to Seattle. It was good to see the kids, but even more than that got a great tour of our country west of the Mississippi...reaffirming that there are millions of folks who are just plain normal, wanting to make a living and raise kids and have a decent life...a breath of fresh air after all the Kabuki theater in the media during the election campaign.  c*
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on November 17, 2012, 01:52:43 PM
Glad to have you back.  Although I didn't even know you left.  ???.  Yes there are other places similar to home but not exactly.  Sounds like you had a good trip. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on November 17, 2012, 06:51:51 PM
It was a good trip, thanks.  I have a long standing aversion to declaring on the internet or in other public settings that I'm not going to be home for 2 weeks. Just seems better to say so afterwards rather than announce it ahead of time.  Turned over itineraries to a few close friends and family, that is enough. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: redjhoo on April 20, 2013, 03:09:14 PM
Any updates?
Really enjoyable working through the tread tonight.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on May 14, 2013, 11:03:27 AM
Got a new battery bank. So far 6 L16's...have a small window to add more. Looks like Washington state is terminating their sales tax exemption on alternate energy components...so I'm hustling to beef up the systeom as quickly as possible.  I'd like to increase the number of batteries as well as grab some more PV panels...learned some good lessons with the 1st battery bank...and they lasted longer than they should have, considering the abuse a beginner can perpetrate on them.  d*

Mountain Don, if you were going to add a charge controller...would you go Morningstar...or Outback...or what? MPPT of course.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: OlJarhead on May 14, 2013, 11:12:20 AM
(I'm not MTDon but wanted to chime in)

I will not buy another Morningstar.  The second one I have is having similar issues to the first and while it works their support is the worst I've ever had with any product EVER. 

My next purchase will likely be Outback.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on May 14, 2013, 11:37:20 AM
Thanks for the input...I'm leaning their way, just going through the owner's manual and trying to get a grip on the "what else do I need" list.  Looks like a couple of....DC breakers and other stuff etc. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Squirl on May 14, 2013, 11:57:53 AM
I'm not MTD either.

I have been looking at a midnite solar classic.  Higher amps and VOC are what I am looking for in a colder climate.  Also I want the option to add wind too.

http://www.midnitesolar.com/pdfs/comparisonChart.pdf

It is a bit lopsided because it is a midnite solar marketing tool, but at least you can get the layout all the different models to compare on your own.

I believe homepower.com might also have a free article on mppt charge controller comparisons.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on May 14, 2013, 01:15:03 PM
Last time I checked I was MountainDon.  :D

Midnight and Apollo both offer higher peak voltages and I do like that a whole lot. It would permit adding another similar panel to our array for example, without having any worries about the existing wire size from PV to CC. Worth thinking about. The present panels would also influenece that. They would likely have to be in series to work with 24 VDC



Quote from: Squirl on May 14, 2013, 11:57:53 AM
  Also I want the option to add wind too.
Not at the same time though. It's an either/or situation; one unit for wind and one unit for PV and another for hydro.


Quote from: considerations on May 14, 2013, 11:03:27 AM
Got a new battery bank. So far 6 L16's...
I know this was not asked but I thought it suitable to inject this question or thought. Is my recall correct; you have a 12 VDC based system?

New batteries, possibly adding PV panels and a new charge controller in conjunction with the mention of possibly adding more batteries makes me wonder of this is also the time to re-think 12 VDC vs 24 VDC as the basis for the system. ???  Just a thought. I know it would mean an new inverter/charger as well.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on May 14, 2013, 02:12:23 PM
"I know this was not asked but I thought it suitable to inject this question or thought. Is my recall correct; you have a 12 VDC based system?"

"New batteries, possibly adding PV panels and a new charge controller in conjunction with the mention of possibly adding more batteries makes me wonder of this is also the time to re-think 12 VDC vs 24 VDC as the basis for the system. ???  Just a thought. I know it would mean an new inverter/charger as well."

Just replaced the inverter ($ouch)...I had to, and quickly. My only charge controller is/was 12v. So yup...still 12v.  However...I have the potential for more capacity as things stand, and am going to exploit it, hopefully intelligently.

Increasing the PV array(s) means a new (another) charge controller as well, so I'm hoping I can get one that allows a transition to at least 24v in the future..I think that is possible.

I've been reading the Morningstar manual for the 60/80amp models and looking for the extra parts one doesn't know are necessary unless the reading is done before the purchase....Morningstar has all these programming processes for controlling the battery charging process....so does my inverter.  I'm a little bewildered about  how/if they work together, or not. Which takes precedence, etc.  Back on the learning curve.

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on May 14, 2013, 02:36:52 PM
Yes a good CC auto selects the voltage of the batteries. With Outback you first connect the CC to the batteries and it finds the voltage. Also possible to do manually I think. Then you connect the input from the panels and it goes through more steps. So for Outback at least it is easiest to do that connecting and switching by using a DC breaker on the input and the output. The bonus is the protection of the breakers. I have not read the other manuals but imagine they are similar. But worth checking out.

There are many programmable settings for the Outback CC too. Many. That is one of their virtues. You are not stuck with the precanned estimate of what might work best like some of the cheap units. There are default settings so the learning curve can be extended. It will work out of the box after the initial setup.

Depending on where the CC is mounted you might also be interested in their Mate, the remote display panel and programming device. BTW, the Outback Mate is needed for use with programming an Outback inverter. Not an option.

The CC and inverter work independently of each other. The only time I can think of where one might interfere with the other is if/when you fire up a generator and use the charger section of the  inverter/charger at the same time as the CC is working from the PV panels.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on May 31, 2013, 11:26:21 AM
Ok...got the new battery bank installed, up, and running....no fried operator....had to think out of the box..they are so much bigger than the old golf cart batteries. Literally had to rip the box out and have to rebuild it to fit. 

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/PowerShedSmall.jpg) (https://s282.photobucket.com/user/considerations/media/PowerShedSmall.jpg.html)

Next step is the PV panels to match...I'm missing one breaker, want to include it before placing the order.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: OlJarhead on May 31, 2013, 02:20:49 PM
Nice work!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on May 31, 2013, 03:18:15 PM
Wow, thanks...lots of labels and arrows...lots and lots.  It's very easy for me to lose track of what is going where and why.  ???
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on June 01, 2013, 09:14:34 AM
Hah!   3rd morning and still running without a gen! Ha...Hah! More solar panels on the way as the 2 160 Watt are not quite enough...but still, wow. Yes, I'm crowing, but I don't often get to, and this PV system has always been a challenge. Some of us are more clever than others when it comes to electrical :)..I'm not one of them.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: OlJarhead on June 03, 2013, 11:50:46 AM
I love labels :)  In my business wiring/cabling without some form of identifying the cable is a no-no! :)

Very nice work (not like my shabby install that I have yet to go back and clean up!)  [cool]
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on June 17, 2013, 03:25:55 PM
Ended up with a Midnight Solar Classic 150 charge controller and 4 245 watt  Canadian Solar panels...still need more widgets to actually install but the big $'s are done and gone. Excited? Yup.  Then saw it posted somewhere that the panels were made in China irrespective of the brand name. Havent verified that yet but $ .80/watt was just so attractive!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: OlJarhead on June 18, 2013, 10:40:29 AM
Quote from: considerations on June 17, 2013, 03:25:55 PM
Ended up with a Midnight Solar Classic 150 charge controller and 4 245 watt  Canadian Solar panels...still need more widgets to actually install but the big $'s are done and gone. Excited? Yup.  Then saw it posted somewhere that the panels were made in China irrespective of the brand name. Havent verified that yet but $ .80/watt was just so attractive!

80c a watt and I'll buy panels made on Mars! lol -- after all, it's about saving money isn't it?
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 10, 2013, 08:44:33 AM
Yes, I don't post as much as i used to...just seem to be so busy. Finally negotiated myself out of a job..sounds funny but the whole goal was to sell the company for the best net benefit to stockholders...and we did, i think. The chosen suitor was a challenge, hundreds of times larger with a legal team to match. Anyhow, it is done except for storing records in an organized fashion when the tendency is to just have a big bonfire.

That being said..i got more solar panels and a charge controller to match..so now have started the install. Trying to think ahead got me doing a little geriactric engineering. The slope on the power shed is about 27 degrees and the first panels up were a scary project. 8 years later I have been staring at that slippery slope with a jaundiced eye...things are not getting easier...and they take longer.  So I decided to build a stairway from the ground right up the center to the roof...putting me between solar arrays on a level footing. Lots of benefits, handle the awkward stuff with a "ramp" (the top of the stringers) , and  ease of panel cleaning and maintenance later.

I got risers to make the top of the panels virtually flush with the top of the stringers to avoid shadows. I think its going to turn out OK even though it is a fairly tight fit all around.

One other thing. I bought a kindle fire hd about 6 months ago. For almost all internet needs it is an equal replacement for my laptop...which means, in my currently marginal power world, that my electrical demand is even smaller. Just thought i would mention that for some who are looking to start up solar on a shoestring like i did. I can even store movies and audio books on it.  Interesting technology, just thought i would be using it to check out ebooks from the library. Found a lot more capability than i ever imagined. Except for graphic art and consulting work, I use the Kindle instead.


Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 10, 2013, 09:47:57 PM
The stairs to the sun! Ok, half of them....more to follow.  ;D
(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/House/IMG_5684small.jpg) (https://s282.photobucket.com/user/considerations/media/House/IMG_5684small.jpg.html)

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/House/IMG_5683small.jpg) (https://s282.photobucket.com/user/considerations/media/House/IMG_5683small.jpg.html)

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/House/IMG_5682small.jpg) (https://s282.photobucket.com/user/considerations/media/House/IMG_5682small.jpg.html)

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on August 10, 2013, 10:23:28 PM
Watch (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7FUo_XaJs4)

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 10, 2013, 11:40:33 PM
Hmm, if I'd known that.....

to your credit, it wasn't an article about a bridge to nowhere!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on August 11, 2013, 06:45:13 AM
An alternative might be something like I did at Dogtrot. 

(https://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd161/redoverfarm/hightop/100_4800-1.jpg) (https://s220.photobucket.com/user/redoverfarm/media/hightop/100_4800-1.jpg.html)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 11, 2013, 09:12:12 AM
Redover, can you describe what you used and how the steps are attached?
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on August 11, 2013, 09:57:45 AM
Quote from: considerations on August 11, 2013, 09:12:12 AM
Redover, can you describe what you used and how the steps are attached?

It is an ice bar.  Commonly know here as "witches hat". Most metal roofing companys have it or can get it in about any color or galvanized.  I cut it to a uniform length to reach from peak to peak on the roofing.  It is attached via regular roofing screws on the flange at the bottom and top.  In short lengths it is pretty stout but I doubled the thickness to give a little more weight load.  A some later time the person that is climbing might weigh more than me.  ;). 

Here is a profile picture.  The 90 deg is the ridge side and the sloped is the eve side. 

(https://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd161/redoverfarm/hightop/100_4790-1.jpg) (https://s220.photobucket.com/user/redoverfarm/media/hightop/100_4790-1.jpg.html)

Without the porch I was able to lay a ladder on the cabin roof to gain access to the flue area but once the porch was added this wasn't possible.  The porch is about 3/12 so essentially I can put a ladder to it walk safely to the house roof and then accend the stairs to the flue. 
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on August 11, 2013, 10:03:16 AM
Wow thanks! The guy who cleans my chimney hates my roof...this may be the beginning of a reasonable solution.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on August 11, 2013, 10:04:42 AM
Quote from: considerations on August 11, 2013, 10:03:16 AM
Wow thanks! The guy who cleans my chimney hates my roof...this may be the beginning of a reasonable solution.

Glad I could help. :)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: rugger8 on August 20, 2013, 10:51:26 AM
Well Considerations, just got finished reading through your entire thread.  You are my third major thread, OlJarhead, Redover's Dogtrot, and now yours.  I have learned a lot from all of you and appreciate you putting your experiences on here.  Glenn, I am trying to get through your's, but it might take a few months/years to catch up! d*

Congrats, the house is looking great and I look forward to following all of your progress in the future.   :)

Jeff
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: rugger8 on August 20, 2013, 10:53:16 AM
Whoops, almost forgot Mountain Don's thread as well! >:(  Sorry about that, you are my fourth major thread!  [cool]

Jeff
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on September 08, 2013, 06:21:46 PM
Drum roll !!!!!!!!!!!!!  I have upgraded my power.


(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/IMG_5695small.jpg) (https://s282.photobucket.com/user/considerations/media/IMG_5695small.jpg.html)

The stairs are done, the solar panels in place, the wiring done and the sun is shining!

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/0830131121asmall.jpg) (https://s282.photobucket.com/user/considerations/media/0830131121asmall.jpg.html)

Getting 5x what I was with just the 2 original panels..Whoopee!...I have extra

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/0901131704small.jpg) (https://s282.photobucket.com/user/considerations/media/0901131704small.jpg.html)

Flipping on the breakers and powering up the first time was, well, tense...but it is working!   ;D


Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on September 08, 2013, 07:23:19 PM
Congrats.  All the comforts of home and more.   ;)
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: OlJarhead on September 09, 2013, 03:26:59 PM
Awesome!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on September 09, 2013, 07:22:51 PM
Thanks guys...there is plenty that doesn't go as smoothly...just felt good to crow a little.

Welcome rugger8. I am the Queen of tarps and bungies, so to tackle something like electrical, which requires following the directions EXACTLY, is a rather big deal for me. [frus] [frus] [frus]

There are lots of other folks on this forum who have met their goals faster and better than me....but their moral support, advise, and sometimes chiding has gotten me this far.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Jimbo Ricketts on September 10, 2013, 01:05:47 AM
read most pages of this build , im very impressed that you have done 99% of the build yourself . i have no excuses when the 24x36 1 1/2 time comes . im also impressed with the quality people in here , very impressed .
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on October 01, 2013, 07:03:03 PM
Finally-a solution!

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/GiantQuickflowfunnel.jpg) (https://s282.photobucket.com/user/considerations/media/GiantQuickflowfunnel.jpg.html)

This is the perfect solution for dealing with the new and totally weird fuel can spouts.
1 Open Gas Tank
2 Insert Funnel
3 Remove fuel can spout
4 Pour fuel into funnel, and therefore, into fuel tank.

The new fuel can spouts make transferring 5 gallons a 4 minute yoga exercise using a 40 pound weight.
That is, IF you can apply pressure to the spring loaded thingy in the spout.
and IF you don't care about not being able to drain the fuel can completely.
The above instructions cut the time to less than a minute.
No muss, no fuss...for 5 bucks.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Pritch on October 02, 2013, 11:17:05 PM
Quote from: considerations on October 01, 2013, 07:03:03 PM
Finally-a solution!

(https://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk265/considerations/GiantQuickflowfunnel.jpg) (https://s282.photobucket.com/user/considerations/media/GiantQuickflowfunnel.jpg.html)

This is the perfect solution for dealing with the new and totally weird fuel can spouts.
1 Open Gas Tank
2 Insert Funnel
3 Remove fuel can spout
4 Pour fuel into funnel, and therefore, into fuel tank.

The new fuel can spouts make transferring 5 gallons a 4 minute yoga exercise using a 40 pound weight.
That is, IF you can apply pressure to the spring loaded thingy in the spout.
and IF you don't care about not being able to drain the fuel can completely.
The above instructions cut the time to less than a minute.
No muss, no fuss...for 5 bucks.

Whew!  At first I thought that was one of those *ahem!* "female" urinals. . .   :o
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: MountainDon on October 02, 2013, 11:21:45 PM
Well, female urine devices are almost as much trouble as the latest EPA approved fuel cans.   ;D   But not quite.

I love my old Gott and Rubbermaid fuel containers. I treasure and treat each like gold.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on October 03, 2013, 07:27:38 AM
I am nice to my fuel cans. It is the spouts that wear out. Then, what to do?  Replacement spouts are all these ridiculous contraptions. I still have one good can with a worn out spout. There must be a way to fabricate a simple pour spout. These new ones are obviously a product of politicians who never pick up a fuel can.

When I recently bought the 12 gallon extended run tank it was insanely expensive...why? New double walls..growl.

We have a law now in this state requiring us to buy new license plates every 7 years. Why?...supposedly because the reflective paint wears out....right. I smell the hand of lobbyists in all of these developments.

Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on October 03, 2013, 07:28:28 AM
Don keep them in good shape.  I have been looking for a couple of good cans but most of which I have seen I haven't liked.  I still have a couple of old ones which I baby the flexible rubber spout when using.  I know they are on their last leg but I will hold out as long as they don't spill toooo much.  Wish I could just find a spout to fit them but my search has been to no avail.  They were manufactured by Eagle right here in WV.  I contacted them and they said they are no longer in the residential container buisness and had no replacement parts.  I would imagine that is because it would not meet OSHA requirments.  d*

CF we have to keep the inmates busy.  Ours are made by prison employees and the plates seem to last for ever.  In fact we just keep transfering them from car to car for years and years.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: rick91351 on October 03, 2013, 09:14:16 AM
Do they still sell the old style fuel containers in Canada or Mexico?  Busted smuggling in new old style gas cans.  WOW!!!  These new ones that I have are a joke and a safety hazard.  I never spilled this much fuel with my old Gott 'cans'.  My not favorite thing now is filling the chain saw with one.  Even a small container is a real pain in the rear.       
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on October 03, 2013, 09:16:56 AM
I think this pretty well sums it up.  But there is one that looks interesting.

http://www.gad.net/Blog/2012/11/22/one-mans-quest-for-gas-cans-that-dont-suck/
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on January 16, 2014, 10:16:24 AM
I learned something today....something very good. One of my first tasks in the morning is to make coffee. I am spoiled..I like my tiny electric coffee pot. It does not require a lot of wattage. Being off grid this is a good thing. For the last 2 days this tiny pot made the whole house wink off in the middle of brewing. This makes no sense with my new and much larger battery bank. I was pretty worried about why my battery bank was draining so far down after a night when I use so little power. Well..

Enter the wind storm. We had a stalled front with pesky and persistent high winds this last week. I live in a heavily wooded area, except for the pastures...and I have an electric fence. Have to walk the fence anytime a wind storm comes through because of the trees lining the pastures.  Found a 25 foot branch had taken out a section of fence..truely a dead short. Fixed it.

This am my coffee making went off without a hitch.  Conclusion is that a shorted electric fence will drain a  battery bank. I never would have thought that....but I am so releaved that it was not something else..Yippee!
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: Redoverfarm on January 16, 2014, 10:37:55 AM
You might give some consideration (no pun intended) to spring for a solar powered electric fence to work independent of your house electric.  Won't keep you from walking the fence after a windstorm but you will have coffee before you do it.   ;)

At Tractor Supply they have a 5 mile solar fence charger on sale for about $130. Free Shipping.
http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/store/zarebareg%3B-5-mile-solar-fence-charger
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: considerations on January 16, 2014, 11:04:50 AM
Reasonable suggestion...if it would reliably pack the punch to dissuade a horse with a blanket on. I got lucky with this downed section...it was behind a tree and inaccessible to them. And it takes a few days for them to trust the fence wont bite them before they attempt walkabout. The fence charger I use now doesnt draw much from the battery bank when the fence is clear of shorts but it will wreck your day if it bites you. My first charger out here was solar...but tiny and woefully inadequate. "Learn as I go" seems to be the rule rather than the exception.
Title: Re: 14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula
Post by: rick91351 on January 17, 2014, 03:15:18 AM
The big solar 'fencers' will cause you to say cuss words and tinkle all at the same time if you get hooked up with one.