Joist Nailing (1960 house)

[Sterry]

I have a ranch built in 1962 (Portland Maine).  I started doing the insulation in the basement and noticed that the Joists are sitting on the sill but not one Joist butts up to the Header Joist.  There is a one and a half inch gap between the Joist and the Header Joist. 
?? QUESTION ??
Was this by any chance a standard at some point in time to keep the Joists from rotting or coming in contact with potential water??

[Don_P]

 
No, it was never a standard practice that I know of. The connection between the rim and the joists is part of the lateral restraint of the joists ( to keep them from rolling over).
Read 502.7 here (this is the oldest online code readily available, 2000);
http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/irc/2000/icod_irc_2000_5_sec002.htm?bu2=undefined
My old '68 southern building code does not specifically state this but does contain the blocking requirement for deep joists, the intent has not changed. Also note that there is a minimum of 1.5" bearing requirement for each end of the joist. You can retrofit blocking between joist ends before insulating.

Look it over carefully, were they tight at one time, are both sides framed this way, are there end nails from the rim into the joists, and are the joists toenailed to the sill?

[Sterry]

Thank you for the fast reply.
I just stuck my camera up there to get a picture behind the joist.  There are no nails between the Header Joist the joist where the gap exists.  So it didn't just pull away over time.  Both the Front and back of the house are the same way.  (If I can get the picture I took attached, I will post it)

What got me thinking this may have been a standard at one time in history, was a Holmes on Homes show I saw a few weeks ago where he was inspecting a VERY old house, the Outside Header Joist was rotted but the inner Joists were not, and there was a gap between the two. He had mentioned that it was what saved the most of the structure. . . That it was the old stile of construction.  Don't know if he was right or wrong but it is what I have. 

[rick91351]

Easiest way for most of us to post photos is open a Photobucket.com account.  Upload your photos to it.  It will put them in an album.  (However there are a lot of places where you can upload and save photos for free.)  I do use Photobucket and is the easiest for me to explain

So if you want to post something, open another window in your browser and go to Photobucket find the photo

Off to the side you will see something like this:

Email & IM
Direct link
HTML code
IMG code

You want to click in the IMG or image link.  This will copy it to your clip board.
Go back to your CountyPlans window on your browser and paste.

At a later time you want to make a lot of albums and move stuff all over.  If you move that photo to another album the link will be broken.  However you can copy it to another album leaving the original  or go back and repair the link in you old reply or correspondence.

If you have any problems doing so let us know and some body will help.

rlr   

       

[Sterry]

Image of the Joist to Header.  Let

http://1960housejoist.shutterfly.com/pictures/9

[PEG688]

 Odd, I've never seen it done that way , and I've remodeled hundreds of house.

They seem well attached with the toe nails and they've worked for close to 50 years.

Other than it looking odd , and it's definitely not something I'd recommend repeating , why are you looking at this area of your house?   Thinking of remodeling / add on / other???   

ETA:

   I went back to your original post to see your insulating the floor.  If it where my house I just insulate and forget about it. 

If you wanted to spend money to "fix" something that for 50 years has been a non-issue you could ;

#1: Call a engineer and spend a lot of money  and/ or time , coming up with a engineered fix.

#2:  Look into some Simpson hardware like a HD2AHDG , DTT2 or HL79 , although you'd end up with a thru bolt head on the outside of the house , or you'd have to come up with a fix to hide the bolt head.


I'd say why look for trouble , if you inspect 50 percent of the joists and they are nailed and show no signs of slipping , I'd forget about it!

[Don_P]

Or add blocking between the joists.

I'm with PEG, this is a new one to me and I wouldn't recommend repeating it. I am curious, what is the length of the joists, in other words were they trying to stretch a stock length?

From the little I've seen of home improvement shows be careful. I've never watched that show but have heard enough to take it with a grain of salt. Usually I've seen rot in rim joists from either having the wood too close to grade or having an improperly flashed deck attached to the house.

[Sterry]

Thank you all for your comments. 
I do see that all the Joists are toe nailed in and you're right 50 years and still standing . . .

Each Joist is between 12 foot 1 inch and 12 foot 1/2 inch so they may have bee trying to stretch the wood

I was just curious.  I'm just going to finish up the insulation and not worry about it

Again, thank you all
Steve

[PEG688]

It's another in the ever growing list of " They sure don't build them like they used to,,,,,   THANKFULLY!"   

That being said,  they had better wood, it could take a bit more span , it (the wood in general) could take more abuse , be that abuse;  over span , over loaded , and a bit more decay resistant.  Meaning small leaks could not become major issues , add to that less or no insulation to hold the moisture in contact and less attention to blocking air leaks , so wood COULD dry out where today we seal / insulate, use third or forth grow lumber , etc. Small issues that could , and did survive in the "good ole days" can become major problems in two or three years today!     

[Squirl]

I think you nailed it on the head with your last post.  Standard dimensional lumber is usually .5 inches over at that length.  So they probably purchased it this length.

I would probably guess someone made the foundation too wide, or didn't account for the standard dimensions of lumber in the design.

Again, like peg stated, thankfully not done this way anymore.  In today's world, that would have required 3 nails in the rim joist and 3 toe nails into the sill plate.  Also there would be fire blocking every 10 ft, which also would help prevent the joist from rolling over.

I've never seen it before myself, but many of the old houses I have worked on were 3x joists and they were set directly into brick or stone.