Floorplan for review

[NM_Shooter]

Take a look at this and tell me what you think.  This will be a 16X20 sized cabin, with a 12:12 pitch roof.  I've decided on a full loft over the entire cabin, as I want to keep the heat as even as possible in the lower floor.  No front porch... I am going to have a hinged "awning" that runs the width of the cabin that will allow me to flop the awning down and cover the front door and window to keep it more secure and to keep snow off the front.  (Yes, this could be an issue in the winter if I ever want to use it.  Unlikely winter use).

I started out with a 16X36 design, that went to 20X36, and I started to notice that feature creep was rapidly affecting my ability to get this blacked in within a summer's time.  I wanted to be able to sleep two families... 8 people comfortably, and have an outside covered sitting area.  Things started to run away a bit.  I had a lunch with MtnDon and started to get a much better idea of what I really needed, and how to make that work for what I wanted.  Funny how talking things out loud does that.  I also appreciate you folks and this forum, as sharing here helps to clarify a lot for me.   I scaled way back in cabin size, and am going to build a smaller bunkhouse (maybe 10X16) next year for guests.   

I had a real problem with the wood stove.  I tried all sorts of perimeter placements that just would not work.  The thing really needs to vent either out the gable wall or very near the ridge.  After I quit trying to get it out of the way, and started to embrace it as a very necessary part of the cabin, it seemed to fit best right in the middle.  I'll probably put some decorative railing around it to keep little kids from getting up against it.  There will also be a framed-in chase going up through the middle of the loft.  Some vents in the loft floor to let heat in that can be covered or uncovered as necessary.  I'll probably put an insulated water tank above the shower in the loft as well.  Those wanting showers will haul their own hot water up and put it in the tank.  There may be a toilet installed in that little bath too, not sure yet as an outhouse will have to suffice for the near term.  Dining table has built in bench seats around two sides, probably two chairs on the outside.  Not sure about the pantry yet, as it would be nice to have a propane fridge, but may not be worth the gas as this cabin will probably only be used for a week at the longest stretch. Additional storage under the loft stairs.   I really tried to put the shower right next to the sink area, in order to keep plumbing minimized, but just could not find a good way to fit it all together. 

I'm really struggling with the foundation decision... poured piers right under perimeter beams, or gravel pits with beam supporting deck-type blocks.  I'm worried about the wind load.  I like the idea of the ease of installation of the gravel pits, but think that I would be more comfortable with the stability of piers. 

Anyway, please take a look and provide feedback.  Thanks for the patience.



Regards,

Frank

[ScottA]

Looks like It'll work. Reality check on the woodstove;make sure it's got 4' clear on all sides if it's free standing in the center of the room. Is that table going to be like a booth with built in seating?

[Redoverfarm]

Looks workable Frank. Are you going to have a mason flue or a tripple wall.  Flashing could be an issue on tripple wall through the ridge as well as some structural issues. Mason flue would hold no problems to pocket into with your ridge.  Floor vents should work well in the loft area. Still undecided abou mine. Will have to see how natural rise works first.  If not just a jig saw and two grates through the 2X flooring.

[NM_Shooter]

Uh oh.  Four feet of clearance around the stove?  Is that a code requirement?  There will be no permits nor inspections for this build. 

Yes... booth type table with benches, storage underneath. 

For the chimmney, planning on double wall up to the ceiling of the lower room, then triple wall up to the roof.  I believe that there is a penetration box available that would fit between 24" O.C. joists?  I am planning on spacing all joists at 16" except for the end gable where the stairs penetrate and also where the chimmney penetrates.

[MountainDon]

Interesting Frank. our plan is about 50% larger, but all one floor. Making more drawings today, still.


4 feet, not sure if that's code, but MTL it's simply a comfortable/safe distance. When our son was born I made a cage for the stove. The frame was aluminum angle stock; 1 x 1 inch .062 thick. I riveted hardware cloth inside the el. Spray painted it with stove paint. I believe it was spaced about 16" out from the stove walls, IIRC.

As for the chimney if the stove is centered under the ridge you can dodge the ridge with elbows in the insulated chimney. My chimney back home had to dodge a rafter. I used two 30 degree elbows with a 12 inch straight section between them. Chimney drew well and the cleaning brush went through okay (fibergalls screw together wands).

For short/intermittent use the super insulated coolers work well. I've had a couple for years and depending on starting ice load, amount of warm beer replaced for cold, ambient temperature, etc I've have never had a problem keeping cold long enough. We use frozen half gallon and gallon milk jugs, drink the water as it melts for something really cold. For a longer stay starting out with some dry ice in one cooler can give you an extra 3 - 5 days.

One thing to remember about propane fridges is they take a while to cool down if left in the off condition. Sometimes not worth it for short stays with weeks between uses.

IMO, double wall is not needed from stove to near ceiling. But you do need to be careful with the pipe near the flooring penetration. Special stuff is available for 24" OC joists. Insulated or triple wall would be recommended from your main floor ceiling up through the loft and roof. Less worry about someone accidentally leaving something combustible too close to the pipe. Even then a 2" clearance is recommended I believe.

Looking at the bathroom. Just in case you plan on maybe sometime having a compost toilet like the SunMar it requires 47 inches back to front minimum to be able to draw out the bottom drawer of finished product. And a special note for you... we'll likely have at least one self contained Porta-Potti cemical toilet available some time after our cabin's up and the SunMar's in.

You might want to think about that el on the counter?

When we were in the planning stages I chalk lined it out on the driveway. Drew in the furniture, used some cardboard boxes for some things. It helped us get a feel for the space.  OMMV

[MountainDon]

I don't recall seeing stairs in a small cabin too often. I would be cramming them in as well as I really don't like most, if not all, of the ladder solutions I've seen. Ladders are only for building with/from unless you are under the age of maybe 12, IMO.

The only thing that could take up less space would be a man lift. 



Personally, and this is just my preference, I wouldn't want a window over the bed, with the bed so close to the wall.

[MountainDon]

Do you have at least one window planned for the upstairs? With the chimney central I'd want one one each end, just in case. With an exit assist.

[Redoverfarm]

Looks workable Frank. Are you going to have a mason flue or a tripple wall.  Flashing could be an issue on tripple wall through the ridge as well as some structural issues. Mason flue would hold no problems to pocket into with your ridge.  Floor vents should work well in the loft area. Still undecided abou mine. Will have to see how natural rise works first.  If not just a jig saw and two grates through the 2X flooring.

Frank I was referring to the flashing required if running through the flue at the ridge location and the structural weakness it might have. As don stated I would offset the flue to miss the ridge location.  Most flashing boots are for a slope on one side of the roof not both at one time.  On a mason flue it would not make a difference since the flashing would be made to conform around the flue.

[MountainDon]

Those wanting showers will haul their own hot water up and put it in the tank.   

I like that!!  That'll really promote water conservation. 

Although I haven't done it in years a cold shower is still better than no shower. When I was traipsing across Europe we were frequently faced with either a free cold shower or a hot one at extra cost (feed the power meter with coins. The free won out more often than not.

[MountainDon]

One further note on the chimney flashing. On the gazebo space was tight. I placed the flue far enough from the hip rafter for safety, but had a problem with the factory made flashing being too close to the hip ridge. I solved the problem with an extra piece of flashing I made to go over the hap and the edge of the chimney flashing. If I had thought it out better and provided a few more inches spacing from the ridge the extra work could have been avoided.

[NM_Shooter]

Thank you for the feedback.

Some answers (and questions)

1)  The stove will not vent directly through the ridge, rather just to one side of it.  This should make weathertight flashing much easier. 

2)  I wondered about the "L" counter too.  I envisioned the two burner stove top on the short protrusion, and below an open area to stack firewood into.  Pretty easy to straighten that out if better.   

3)  I did consider building a radiant barrier around the stove.  Sort of a double wall arrangement to protect little fingers.  This also might allow me a safe place to stack some firewood behind the stove?

4)  Yes... two gable end windows large enough for egress upstairs.  One will be over the front "porch" awning, which should allow for escape without a ladder.

5)  I have family that has kids under 6 that will be sleeping in the loft, and I was not comfortable with them on a ladder.  I think 24" wide stairs are going to be too narrow, but it is workable.  Obviously we won't be getting any grand pianos in the loft.  My plan is to have a removable rail on the stairs to make getting things like mattresses up there a little easier.

6)  I agree with the window reservations by the bed.  That can be awfully drafty.  But I want some air flow through that part of the cabin. Maybe a smaller window over just the feet?  Or is this thing small enough that it will circulate and cool down?  My wife made some window stoppers for our camper that work great.  They are a fabric covered foam piece that fits tight into the window when it is cold to keep drafts down. 

7)  The downside of a smaller window near the bed is no back side egress.  Although I guess we could run up the stairs and exit, although going higher in a burning building seems like the wrong thing to do.  Maybe a 2-6X3-6 over just the feet of the bed and keep the bed just out from the wall.  And good smoke detectors too.....

9)  yes, I know there is no #8...Composting toilets are just to pricey for me.  Greywater is going directly into a small leach field.  If I do put a toilet in, I am thinking about just digging a pit, lining it with blocks, covering the top with rail road ties and about a foot of soil, then put a leach field out from that.  Not optimal, but some spousal requirements are necessary considering I received no flak about purchasing this property. 

10)  I wish I had a better option for keeping food cold.  I wonder if I could build my own icebox.  I could probably insulate one much better than a portable ice chest.  Hmmmmm......this could be interesting.  Maybe make part of the counter with a hinge top that opens up into an insulated box below.  Access would not be the best, but I bet it would stay cold a long time.  We usually freeze all our meals and bring them out as we need them.  Block ice lasts a long time!


Thanks again for the feedback.

Regards,


Frank

[MountainDon]

[3]  A double wall sheet metal radiant shield could work. The two walls in the gazebo have 26 ga metal roofing panels spaced out from the wood studs with 1" spacers, with a 1" air flow space at bottom.Top opening as well. With a roaring fire the metal facing the stove gets too hot to touch but the air space behind runs in the 80's max. Before forging ahead with he idea it would be nice to run a test on a small prototype shield.

[6] The insulated window stopper sounds like a good idea for that window. If it gets hot inside the window would be welcome.   

[7] That's always a consideration.

[10] The super coolers do work well, but seem so temporary. The thing I do like about them is they are portable, pack 'em at home, haul 'em up, put 'em in the cabin. Hmmm. The question is where? Under a counter?

Building an insulated box under a hinged counter lid would be one solution. Just have to be sure to have enough "real" counter space available. If you could size the inside of it to allow the use of a wire basket or two hat could slide back and forth to give two layers??

Right on block ice. I lie mine with the handles on them. No met water in the cooler either. Not as good as a cooler full of ice and ice water for cooling warm beer.... but not as messy.

We freeze a lot of dinners for use in the mountains.  At times it becomes a problem when we don't think far enough ahead and dinner is still an ice block. 

[MountainDon]

Foundation. I've spent a lot of time on that, what with all the width and length permutations we've gone through.

The nice thing about the gravel pits as you call them is they don't require mixing concrete on site. They can work well if they are well drained (freeze problems if not). With all the rain how does the ground drain? Mine's pretty good but it has a lot of pumice... Redondo Peak a few miles away is a dormant volcano.

But with the winds you'd have to do something for anchors, so poured piers, or concrete block piers with poured concrete infill may be a better choice. That's the direction we're taking.



I believe that will provide superior uplift resistance. Any idea on the frost depth up there? My county guys guessed at "maybe 32 inches or so".    

I planned on the CMU's filled with concrete over a solid concrete pour because of the mixing issue. Not to mention transportation.

Speaking of wind and looking at your plan...
I know you are outside of code enforcement... this is simply a FYI.  I believe, just can't find my reference, that code requires at least one full width (4 foot) "braced panel" per "so many" feet of wall, starting with one at a corner, and adding more on long walls.  If PEG reads this he'll know.  It seems that all your walls would meet that except for the door wall. But there are loads of buildings I've seen that violate that rule and in spite of it they remain standing.

How many footings/piers and what size beams?

[NM_Shooter]

Hi Don, thanks.  Hopefully PEG will chime in. 

In looking at the plan, the windows by the table are not sized correctly.  They should be 40-30 instead of 4050.  Not that it makes a difference for the width. 

I'll have a full 4' run by the pantry on that front wall.  Are you thinking I'll need another full panel somewhere in that wall section?  If I look at the 16X24 on the home page of country plans, that design appears to have about the same amount of wall space used by a door and window as my proposed plan.  I could downsize or eliminate the window on the front of my cabin plans, but would hate to make that compromise unless absolutely necessary.

I have not dug a hole up there, so I don't know the soil consistency.  But there is water generated from multiple springs everywhere.  I've never seen what I would consider to be "bogs" anywhere in New Mexico, and this place has it.  To see water oozing out of the ground while standing on the highest point for miles around is surreal, especially for a desert rat!  Some of the lower land looks dry, but when you walk on it, it is like you are walking across a pool cover. 

I'm going to look for a bit of a knoll to build on, and hopefully will find a dry spot.  For this 16X20, I'm planning on two perimeter beams (directly under the side walls) of built up beams, 2X12 three stack.  Four piers per beam, spaced ~6 feet apart,  This puts the piers about 1' in from the ends of the beams.  I am considering a point of load support pier directly under the woodstove. 

Frost depth?  I can't get the local county to tell me what snow loads are.  I'm not even going to bother asking.  There are a couple of old cabins up there.  Some of the older ones are shifting.  Some are not.  From what I have been told, they all have relatively shallow piers (don't know what this means).  Here is a picture of one of the cabins that has weathered fairly well.  I don't know how the trusses are braced inside, but they only look like 2X6 from this perspective.  Looks like one of the piers has been knocked out.  It will be interesting to see if this survived the heavy snow this year.  See the chicken wire?  Lots of critter problems, especially porcupines.  If you leave an axe out they will eat the handle off of it.



I like the idea of putting my beams directly over the piers, and strapping the beams to the piers.  Then use joist hangers for the floor, and when I sheet the walls I can use the 4X9 OSB to tie everything together.  It will rack before it blows away (hopefully neither).

[glenn kangiser]

I think there is a brace panel design by Simpson and homemade that goes as small as 32 inches.

[MountainDon]

I'll have a full 4' run by the pantry on that front wall.

That should be fine then.

There are ways of meeting code with 32"wall sections, but all the literature points to the wall sitting on and being anchored to a concrete perimeter foundation. Anyhow if that's 4 feet it
s not a problem.

built up beams, 2X12 three stack.  Four piers per beam, spaced ~6 feet apart, 

That should be plenty strong.

FYI, code (I know I refer to code a lot. I find it useful to see what is recommended, even though my plans won't see light of day inside the approval process either.) Anyhow, FYI, code for the beams states that the lower edge must be 12 inches minimum above grade UNLESS PT wood is used. Also, the lower edge of floor joists must be 18 inches above grade UNLESS PT wood is used.

That's one reason I plan on using a PT post from the concrete block piers, up to the beams. I don't want to use PT for the beams/joists. There will be diagonal bracing from posts to beams. With the slope to the ground we'll also have fair storage space under on end.

The greater clearance requirement for the joists is also why I plan on the floor joists to be mounted on top of the beams rather than hung between. I try to keep enriching Mr. Simpson wherever possible. But that's just me and either method of framing the floor would work. Pros and Cons to both. 

Frost depth? ......There are a couple of old cabins up there.  Some of the older ones are shifting.  Some are not.

It would be nice to be able to know the depth of the ones that have not shifted. I have no idea what to guess at.

I like the idea of putting my beams directly over the piers, and strapping the beams to the piers.

That would work. Securing the straps to the concrete, how? I'm not sure how to fasten the strap to the concrete blocks or after a poured pile has been made.

[NM_Shooter]

I'm guessing I'm going to dig to 36".  Possibly less if it is rock and I don't have help   

Couple of options on holding beam to pier...

Your buddy Mr. Simpson makes a strap tie hold down that is either 51 or 70" long.  Part #PA51 or PA68.  I am going to make a stack of pilaster blocks and rest the beam on piece of PT wood directly on the pilaster.  The edge of the beam will line up with the outside of the block so as to make skirting of the cabin easier.  I'll stack the blocks, stretch a string, then pour each column in the pilaster with the strap inside.  Hopefully I'll be able to secure the strap in the proper position while the concrete sets up. 

Or maybe use the adjustable post standoffs bases, such as the ABU66.  This provides for a little shimmy room but I'd have to set in anchor.  No wood on concrete issues with these.  Very similar to your drawing below, but higher blocks and no post.

[tc-vt]

How about placing the woodstove next to the stairs? 

My stovepipe is a little more then 3 feet away from the wall.  The roof is 12/12 pitch and the chimney is supported by the manufacturers brackets.

For the foundation: is the place too remote to have cement delivered?  You can pour a footing, then a concrete block stemwall and then pour a slab.  I poured a stemwall/footing 18 inches wide and two feet tall and insulated it with 2 inch blueboard.  It might not be too much more money than piers and a framed floor.  Also, no critters, better isolation from the weather, no shifting piers, and you can place drain tile around the footing and radiant heat in the slab.

Tom

[NM_Shooter]

yup... way too remote.  12 miles uphill (literally) on a mud and rock road.  It takes an hour in my pickup, and a winch is a preferred accessoryto have.