CountryPlans Design/Build Forum

General => General Forum => Topic started by: phalynx on March 20, 2008, 08:08:13 AM

Title: Attn: plumbers, electricians home builders alike..... questions..
Post by: phalynx on March 20, 2008, 08:08:13 AM
What is the proper placement of electric and plumbing in the wall running horizontal?  What height should they be placed?  Run seperately, grouped?  Not looking for a specific local code, I have none.  I want best practices in the industry.   I will be doing PEX for plumbing.  What do you do when you need to run electrical and plumbing through floor joists?  How does this affect the maximum hole you can cut in them?  I have 2x12's 16" o/c and I don't want to weaken my floor.  Thoughts?  Comments?  Best practices?  No no's?
Title: Re: Attn: plumbers, electricians home builders alike..... questions..
Post by: MountainDon on March 20, 2008, 10:41:38 AM
Pictures = 10K words [from IRC2003]

Exterior & load bearing walls...
(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q75/djmillerbucket/construction/wallsnon-bearingdrilling.jpg)

Interior non-load bearing walls...
(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q75/djmillerbucket/construction/wallsbearingdrilling.jpg)

floor joist notches...
(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q75/djmillerbucket/construction/joistsnotched.jpg)

Ceiling joists and floor joists, drilled...

(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q75/djmillerbucket/construction/joistsdrilled.jpg)

AND, of course anything like elctrical cables, PEX, etc that is close to the edge that could be nailed through needs a steel nailer plate to protect it.
Title: Re: Attn: plumbers, electricians home builders alike..... questions..
Post by: phalynx on March 20, 2008, 10:57:43 AM
Mountaindon,

Good info.  What about plumbing and electrical in the same wall?
Title: Re: Attn: plumbers, electricians home builders alike..... questions..
Post by: MountainDon on March 20, 2008, 11:06:14 AM
Don't connect them to each other.   ;)
Title: Re: Attn: plumbers, electricians home builders alike..... questions..
Post by: MountainDon on March 20, 2008, 11:09:05 AM
Receptacles (outlets) are about 15 inches (center of box) from the floor, switches about 50". I don't know if that simply customary or specified.  ???
Title: Re: Attn: plumbers, electricians home builders alike..... questions..
Post by: MountainDon on March 20, 2008, 11:21:47 AM
Don't connect them to each other.   ;)
Or if you do be certain to use a GFCI!   rofl rofl rofl

That's a joke. I hope that is perfectly clear.

But it does bring to mind something that shouldn't need mentioning. But then I saw a neighbor get this wrong.

If you have a GFCI receptacle feeding additional standard outlets, it is only those that are downstream from the GFCI that are also protected. Receptacles between the GFCI and the power panel are not protected.
Title: Re: Attn: plumbers, electricians home builders alike..... questions..
Post by: Redoverfarm on March 20, 2008, 11:41:17 AM
For my recent addition I set mine at 12" off the floor. An old friend ( barn and shed builder) said he put his way further up the wall because he wasn't able to bend over as well.  Maybe later(not that far off) I would have probably wished I would have set mine at 36" ;)

Although a little more wasteful when I ran my wiring on the exterior walls I used the same entry hole to the recepticle as the exit of the wire down below the floor and over to the next recepticle.  Nothing was comprimized except a little more wire.

Plumbing was done the convientional fashion but it was all on interior walls.
Title: Re: Attn: plumbers, electricians home builders alike..... questions..
Post by: phalynx on March 20, 2008, 02:26:32 PM
How does one run the large 3 and 4" waste pipes for sewage through floor joists?  Seems like that violates the "rule" of 1/3's
Title: Re: Attn: plumbers, electricians home builders alike..... questions..
Post by: MountainDon on March 20, 2008, 03:47:32 PM
You are correct, that would violate the rules unless there were very large joists involved.
I've never had the need to work around that situation. We'll see what Scott has to say.
Ideally this would not come about if everything was properly covered during the design stage.

It would seem you have to go under the joist, or have a header on both sides of the DWV with proper supports holding the headers up in place.  :-\

What is the size of the joists involved? Any pictures of where the plumbing has to go?
Title: Re: Attn: plumbers, electricians home builders alike..... questions..
Post by: phalynx on March 20, 2008, 04:45:17 PM
Design stage???  what's that...  :)  I guess I could run the waste below the joists..  I was concerned about freezing.  That may not happen.  Only gets in the 20's a couple of times down here

Title: Re: Attn: plumbers, electricians home builders alike..... questions..
Post by: PEG688 on March 20, 2008, 04:54:50 PM

 
 #1:  Design stage???  what's that...  :) 


 #2: I guess I could run the waste below the joists..  I was concerned about freezing.  That may not happen.  Only gets in the 20's a couple of times down here



 #1:  Bruce good one [shocked] rofl

 #2: Think dropped soffit / pipe chase , those lines SHOULD be sloped so they won't have waste or water in them anyway , RIGHT??  [toilet] See how he goes right down , toilets don't have pee traps there "built in" to the toilet it self.

    Plumber rules ,

  #1 $hit does not flow uphill , unless you pump it so thats not a hard and fast rule anymore  ::)

 #2: Pay days on Friday.

 #3: Don't chew your finger nails.  [shocked]   [yuk]

  Order of installing , plumber / pipes first , HVAC / heating next if forced air , or some such ducted heat is used, sparky  (electrician) gets the last shot at cutting all the good work the carpenters have completed wire get around things easier than pipes and ducting.   
Title: Re: Attn: plumbers, electricians home builders alike..... questions..
Post by: ScottA on March 20, 2008, 05:06:29 PM
I usually use a chain saw and let the frammers get red tagged. I'm usually gone before they get their inspections.  d*








Ok I'm kidding. If you're going to run pipes large in floor joists they need to be 2x12's. I have been allowed to put 3/4 plywood on both sides of a joist and then bore a hole through on the odd occation but usually just one joist. Best bet if you have smaller joist is to drop down below and enclose the pipes in an insulated sofit. I think Don's pics covered the other questions and Peg took care of the plumming rules.
Title: Re: Attn: plumbers, electricians home builders alike..... questions..
Post by: phalynx on March 20, 2008, 06:18:21 PM
(http://www.ouramericanadventure.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/pooprun.jpg)

Here is a pic of what I had thought about the waste water upstairs.  I was going to run the 2 blue waste lines down the wall and "T" them into a line sloped to the septic exit below the first floor.  Is that the normal method?
Title: Re: Attn: plumbers, electricians home builders alike..... questions..
Post by: bobtheengineer on March 20, 2008, 06:52:16 PM
1)  Don't worry about waste or vent lines freezing.  They aren't sitting full of water, and they always have heat flowing thru them from the sewer or septic

2)  To drain the bathtub you'll need either a 1 1/2 or 2" waste line.  Either a 2 1/8 or 2 9/16" hole.  It is no problem to drill that size hole in a 2x12.  You won't have to reinforce the hole, unless its within a couple of feet from a support location.  The trick about a beam, is that the only place the beam sees alot of shear, is close to the supports.  The rest of the span doesnt see much shear, and you really don't even need the center part of the beam. 

Ok, I kinda went on an engineer's tangent there, but you get the general idea.  Good luck
Title: Re: Attn: plumbers, electricians home builders alike..... questions..
Post by: Redoverfarm on March 20, 2008, 07:14:59 PM
phalynx I am not that familar with your framing on the first floor. Is there a partition directly under the 2nd or 1/2 floor above.  I assume that what you were saying is that this is for the upstairs bathroom. Is there anyway to T the two together in the floor joist and run them down through the partition to the waste line below the floor.

I am planning a 1/2 bath in the loft of my cabin.  I will run all the waste and supply up through the 1st floor bathroom partition and tie everything together in the crawlspace. Of course in mine the two bathrooms will be stacked one above the other.

OK I went back to your post of the floor plans and it appears that there are two options I would consider. Running the sink and commode line toward the wall that the bathtub is against and then running it down the partition behind what I think is the frig and stove wall.  The other would be to run all the 2nd story to the closet of the first floor which backs to the stairs. Then below deck to the downstairs kitchen plumbing and bathroom plumbing.
Title: Re: Attn: plumbers, electricians home builders alike..... questions..
Post by: Willy on March 21, 2008, 07:28:54 AM
I normally use my hammer claw to make a mark on the wall for the lower wall plugs (aprox 16" to top of box) and then I set the switches at 4 ft to the top of the box this makes sheet rock easy to cut out on the first course.

Counter tops you should set the plugs around 6 inches up measured to the bottom. On counter tops I snap a chalk line and make sure they are perfect and this includes any shimming that may be use on the cabnits. You will see any difference in height forever if they are not right!! If you are using tile on the back splash make sure the plugs are set in a way you only cut one course to put them in. With tile it really shows if a plug is off even a quarter of a inch in height!

On your plumbing I am not sure but it looks like it is all up/stairs. I don't know if you have any walls down below but if one is close to the walls above I would drop the waste pipe down the inside non bearing wall and not wipe out the outside main bearing wall cutting it up for that big a pipe. That way if you have to bore out a joist it is supported by a wall below. You can always make a inside wall 2x6 for those pipes. Once below the floor joist slope it to the opening in the foundation off hangers or plumers tape. Try to keep your water pipes out of outside walls if you can it helps in freeze up in real cold areas.

Other than that check your local area plumbing & electrical codes for circuit lay out, GFCI in bath rooms, kitchens etc and Arc Fault Breakers feeding bedroom plugs and lights.

You need at least 2-20 amp appliance circuits in the kitchen on the counter tops also one for a washer, one for a dish washer, one 15 amp for the garbage grinder, 20 amp cir for the built in microwave, 30-50 amp 240 volt for a electric stove top or free standing range.

30 amp 240 volt for the electric water heater and circuits sized for the type of heat if it is electric.

Lights and plugs in the rest of the cabin need to be at least one 15 amp circuit per 500 square ft of living space. You need a outside GFCI receptacle, porch light and switched lights in the kitchen, bathroom, living room, bedroom etc.

Main Service Panels cannot go over sinks, counter tops or washers, not in bathrooms or closets either. You need full ceiling to floor clearance and min 3 ft wide area around the panel so yopu can work on it safe later. The service conductors need to be installed to your local code requirement and you should get a copy of what they want before setting the meter/panel on or in the house. Good luck and there are tons of little electrical/plumbing codes things it would take a 500 page book to cover them all. Mark

ED: broke into sections to make it easier to read - MD
Title: Re: Attn: plumbers, electricians home builders alike..... questions..
Post by: phalynx on March 21, 2008, 07:41:33 AM
Redover,  I like the 2nd method you spoke of but I don't know if it would work.  That closet downstairs is the washer/dryer location so there is a need for wastewater there too.  But, if you look at the drawing above, the horizontal line above the stairs is actually a double 2x12 beam to support the 2x12's running to the stair opening.  I would then be cutting a 3" hole in it to run the waste line.  I don't have a problem with that, but I am concerned about the affect of the hole in the beam.

See the beem in this pic.

(http://www.ouramericanadventure.com/coppermine/albums/house/DSC_6712.jpg)

You can see here in this pic, the last vertical stud by the stairs is where the wall will be coming towards the front of the stairs.

(http://www.ouramericanadventure.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/stairs.jpg)
Title: Re: Attn: plumbers, electricians home builders alike..... questions..
Post by: phalynx on March 21, 2008, 09:40:48 AM
Willy, Thank you.  All good info too!
Title: Re: Attn: plumbers, electricians home builders alike..... questions..
Post by: John Raabe on March 21, 2008, 10:42:24 AM
This is a great evolving tutorial on plumbing and wiring. Nice work guys!  [cool]

I added a link to this thread on the forum topics at the HOMEPAGE (http://countryplans.com).
Title: Re: Attn: plumbers, electricians home builders alike..... questions..
Post by: MountainDon on March 21, 2008, 10:50:14 AM
Are you doing your own electrical, Bruce Scott?
Title: Re: Attn: plumbers, electricians home builders alike..... questions..
Post by: phalynx on March 21, 2008, 11:24:59 AM
I think my name became "Bruce" at somepoint.   :)  Maybe it's from that movie "They call me Bruce".  Anyway, my name is Scott but I'll go by Bruce now.  [cool]

I am doing my own electrical and plumbing.  I have done some electrical before.  Plumbing is completely new to me.  It's just $#$$ work right?  I want to follow best practices/code as best as I can.
Title: Re: Attn: plumbers, electricians home builders alike..... questions..
Post by: MountainDon on March 21, 2008, 11:31:08 AM
Scott. Who knows how those things come about? I worked at one place where every other guy called me Bob.  ???

Some things I was confused about when I first got into doing my own electrical on renovations or new work.

When the code says "outlet" they mean receptacles, switches and light fixtures. (Under NEC receptacles are the things most people call outlets,... what you plug a lamp ot TV into). So when code says all outlets in a bedroom must be protected by an AFCI breaker, they include the lighting circuits and the AC powered smoke detector as well.

The way the code is worded referring to the spacing of receptacles around a room can be confusing. They state no point shall be more than 6 feet from a receptacle. A quick read of that might make you believe there must be a receptacle every 6 feet. NOT so. What they mean is a receptacle every 12 feet. In other words an appliance (table lamp, TV, fan, etc with a 6 foot long cord could theoretically be placed anywhere around the wall perimeter.

Switched lights in living areas and bedrooms don't have to be ceiling mounted lights. They can be switched outlets, usually one half of an outlet switched, the half half live at the time. Kitchen and bath lighting must be permanently mounted.

Building suppliers will usually have a handy book that covers all the things you are likely to need to know. I've a copy of Wiring Simplified that is based on the NEC. It's 200+ pages and helped me pass the homeowners electrical test for DIY work building permits a couple of times. It seems to have all the answers, though sometimes it takes some reading and thinking.

Title: Re: Attn: plumbers, electricians home builders alike..... questions..
Post by: MountainDon on March 21, 2008, 11:34:53 AM
"Old work" boxes, etc refer to new work in old places.  ???
Title: Re: Attn: plumbers, electricians home builders alike..... questions..
Post by: Willy on March 21, 2008, 11:58:41 AM
I think my name became "Bruce" at somepoint.   :)  Maybe it's from that movie "They call me Bruce".  Anyway, my name is Scott but I'll go by Bruce now.  [cool]

I am doing my own electrical and plumbing.  I have done some electrical before.  Plumbing is completely new to me.  It's just $#$$ work right?  I want to follow best practices/code as best as I can.
Well I was never a plumber but when I did my homes complete plumbing system well pump to tolet I bought a book to look at and jumped right in. I passed 100% on my first inspection. I have had no problems with the plumbing in 13 years so I must have got it right I think? Now on the electrical you can do the same but I think the little things in the electrical code can add up to big bucks if you do them wrong or maybe worse cause a home to burn down. Leaking water is one thing but loose conections, over loaded circuits is a different story. Mark
Title: Re: Attn: plumbers, electricians home builders alike..... questions..
Post by: Redoverfarm on March 21, 2008, 04:36:04 PM
phalynx If I understand you correctly the closet will be for the washer and dryer. I think if you look at using the framing of the wall of the closet for the chase of the waste it might be doable.  If I remember correctly your toilet and sink are on one side and the tub/shower on the other.  If you just routed the tub drain over to the larger toilet drain 3" then you shouldn't compromise anything except a 2" hole to cross over to the larger drain line.  IF you are worried about the framing of the stairs that can be re-fortified with the header of the closet but I don't think IMO that will be a big issue.  If the wall goes all the way to the ceiling arouond the stairs it might also be a good place to vent to as well.  The washer could also be tapped into the down pipe with a sanitary "T" eliminating a need for any additional pipe through the floor.  I am sure that there are "plumbers" on the forrum maybe they will pick up and give you/us an opinion. 
Title: Re: Attn: plumbers, electricians home builders alike..... questions..
Post by: ScottA on March 21, 2008, 05:34:33 PM
I'd make a suggestion but after reading this a couple of times I'm still not clear on what you're trying to do exactly. Plumbing can be tricky if you're not educated so I suggest getting a good understanding of it before you start. Using the wrong fitting in the wrong place can cause alot of grief. Be sure to vent everything. Don't stack things like toilets and washers over sinks on the same drain. I'll be happy to answer specific questions.

Plumbers hate to drill holes and will usualy use a little more pipe to avoid drilling if they can.
Title: Re: Attn: plumbers, electricians home builders alike..... questions..
Post by: Willy on March 21, 2008, 06:50:19 PM
I'd make a suggestion but after reading this a couple of times I'm still not clear on what you're trying to do exactly. Plumbing can be tricky if you're not educated so I suggest getting a good understanding of it before you start. Using the wrong fitting in the wrong place can cause alot of grief. Be sure to vent everything. Don't stack things like toilets and washers over sinks on the same drain. I'll be happy to answer specific questions.

Plumbers hate to drill holes and will usualy use a little more pipe to avoid drilling if they can.
Like putting the water closet to close to the wall now the tolet won't go on. Gluing a bunch of 3-4 inch fittings all together edge to edge and figuring it wrong and just throwing them away. Drilling out a wall or floor and finding you can't get the parts to go together and fit do to not enought room. Having the main waste pipe to low that going accross the building it is now so low it can't match your sewer line when you get to it. Lots of things can go wrong if you are not sure, have planned well ahead or never done it before. Mark
Title: Re: Attn: plumbers, electricians home builders alike..... questions..
Post by: Redoverfarm on March 21, 2008, 07:42:16 PM
Well like I said maybe we do have some plumbers here after all.  There is nothing wrong with stacking several dump lines into one main. It is the most economical way. If you can imagine an apartment building with several dumping appliances all having a seperate vent there would be no shingles on the roof just vent pipes. The main reason for the vent is not to vent the gas out of the waste line but to allow the vent to draw air so that it will flow properly.  As long as the vent line is above your highest waste line closest to where the appliances dump into the main. The pupose is to vent everything falling into that line which is below the vent stack.  There is some places where a vent is not possible because of the placement of the lines. Then thats where a Studor valve comes in. Yes they are placed within the living space and yes that line does run into the main waste line but with a studor it just opens when a vaccume is present"water running" and closes off to prevent the gases from entering the room when it is not in demand. 

I presently have two vent stacks on opposite ends of my house because there is dumping appliances on both ends with the main dump between the two. Never had any problems with mine with the exception of heavy use in which the odor outside ( because of atmospheric pressure) pushes the fumes to the ground.

Others are right in what they have said regarding whether you know what to use and how to use it.  If you are not sure then find out. There should be plumbing books available. I just happened to learn from a plumber and practiced what he said. 

Om a closing note remember to DRY FIT all your plumbing before gluing and think out the sequence of the gluing before starting. You can't get a missed fitting through a hole sized for a pipe.